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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio z WB.

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Speaker 2: Three Elizabeth Clyde Dutton. What's up? How you b girl?

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Speaker 3: I'm good and I'm good. Feeling good?

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Speaker 2: Nice?

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Speaker 3: Not really, but yeah, feeling good.

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Speaker 2: Looks like you're convincing, Lyne.

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Speaker 3: Uh, yes, you know it's ridiculous, I do girl, Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: All but two US presidents are descendants of the same

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Speaker 2: British king. Wow, right, in't that weird? So there's this

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Speaker 2: twelve year old girl, right seventh grader at Monte Vista

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Speaker 2: Christian School in Watsonville, California. Her name Bridge Anne d'evegnon.

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Speaker 2: She began studying her own lineage, her own genetic lenea.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to see if she had any connections to France.

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Speaker 2: Turns out her grandfather also had a sixty year long

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Speaker 2: habit of doing genealogy, so he had lots of evidence

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Speaker 2: for her to go pouring through. So for months for

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Speaker 2: the summer, she's doing this, Right, she looks over five

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand names. She's trying to look for the presidential Adam,

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Speaker 2: somebody who connects to all the presidents. I don't know

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Speaker 2: why that's what he'r thaying, but that's your thing. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she finds one John Lackland Plantagenet Okay aka King John

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Speaker 2: aka the enemy of Robin Hood aka the English king

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Speaker 2: who signed the Magna Carta back in twelve fifteen.

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Speaker 3: What up? Now?

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Speaker 2: Back to the US presidents, though all but two are

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Speaker 2: apparently related to him. Can you guess which two are not?

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Speaker 3: Kennedy?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: Oh, Obama, no Trump?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: Shoot right, Nixon.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a hint. Before recently there was only

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Speaker 2: one president who was related to him.

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Speaker 3: So Clinton, no, Bush, Biden?

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Speaker 2: Oh, the Irish.

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth, the Irish president.

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Speaker 2: Irish and probably not related to an English king.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy I thought would be the one.

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Speaker 2: He's not that He's not as Irish as Biden. Biden

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Speaker 2: is more Irish.

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Speaker 3: Ireland exactly.

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 3: So Biden and I need one more? Huh? Is it

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Speaker 3: pre nineteen hundred?

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Speaker 2: Super early? I'll give you a hand.

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Speaker 3: His ancestors were Dutch, I would say, uh, President, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, Martin.

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Speaker 2: Van Buren all Marty, Yeah, So there you go. Now, personally,

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Speaker 2: I'm related to make Queen Scott, so I have no

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Speaker 2: English blood and I boast about that. Just Scott's and Irish.

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Speaker 3: What up?

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Speaker 2: For you anyway. This all makes sense to me.

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Speaker 3: It does make right.

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Speaker 2: It's ridiculous though. Huh, that's very Obama and trumpet all ken.

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Speaker 3: Wow, you know what else is ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Wiggs. Oh yeah, wait, that's your Crime Wigs.

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Speaker 3: This is Ridiculous Crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous

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Speaker 3: caper's heists and cons. It's always ninety nine percent murder

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Speaker 3: free and one hundred percent ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I know you heard that.

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Speaker 3: I have for you today zaren A most late nineties

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Speaker 3: of tales.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice, that explained your hair totally.

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Speaker 3: Have you heard of J. T Leroy? Yes, writer correct, yes,

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Speaker 3: so let me tell you their story please. Jt Leroy

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Speaker 3: was born on October thirty first, nineteen eighty in West Virginia.

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Speaker 2: Halloween baby in West Virginia. Wow.

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Speaker 3: His mom, Sarah, was just fourteen years old.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The J in JT is for Jeremiah and the tea

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Speaker 3: is for Terminator.

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Speaker 2: What. Yeah, so mama named and terminator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because his mom was so young when she had him.

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Speaker 3: He lived in a foster home until his mother turned eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Oka She was a drug addict and a prostitute, so

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Speaker 3: she and her son they traveled across the US together,

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Speaker 3: moving from truck stop to truck stop. It was a

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Speaker 3: very rough life. I'm not going to get into that.

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Speaker 3: As JT wrote later in The New York Times, quote,

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Speaker 3: when I was a child, my mother worked the strip

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Speaker 3: clubs outside Orlando, Florida, and weeding out the Disney dollars

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Speaker 3: from legitimate tender stuffed into her g string was my job.

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Speaker 3: Oh horrible. So when he was around thirteen, he found

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Speaker 3: himself on the streets of San Francisco. This is about

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, So what a year in San Francisco

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Speaker 3: was still affordable for artists?

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Speaker 2: Oh, nineteen ninety three. I was there then, tons.

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Speaker 3: Of undergrounds, So tell me like it was.

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Speaker 2: I was a Oh my god, you're gonna beat me up.

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Speaker 2: I was raving my off at the time. I was

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Speaker 2: a skateboarder who was really into raving and like all

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Speaker 2: sorts of bad decisions feed graffiti. I was a tagger.

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Speaker 2: I was up like you could have seen me on

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Speaker 2: market like street with big pieces like yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna say my name, why implicate myselves in crimes? My

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Speaker 2: pants were super wide. I still have a couple of those,

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Speaker 2: like big forties and forty two's with ye leg like

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Speaker 2: Janco jeans. Yeah yeah, okay, yes, I was there. I

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Speaker 2: was that time.

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Speaker 3: This was a time. And so when he got to

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Speaker 3: San Francisco, J he started calling a crisis hotline that there. Right,

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Speaker 3: it was designed for kids in trouble.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of us then.

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Speaker 3: And so San Francisco, which I have a quick public

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Speaker 3: service announcement, do not call it San Fran. Just don't

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Speaker 3: do it.

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Speaker 2: Unless people know that you're from La or other parts

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: Else.

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Speaker 2: People from La loved going going up to San fran

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Speaker 2: for the weekend.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, we don't say that.

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Speaker 2: I like to correct and I give him like marsh

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Speaker 2: and sand Fran over here.

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Speaker 3: Like y'all going up to Frisco. Now Frisco.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't mind that one. It's not older.

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Speaker 3: It's not my favorite.

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Speaker 2: No no, A lot of people hated it.

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Speaker 3: There are certain like neighborhoods and Marsha.

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Speaker 2: Lynch says it. So Marshall says, it's cool. Man.

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Speaker 3: Listen whatever Marshaw Lynch says, I go.

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Speaker 2: For Did you know the Gospel of Marshan.

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Speaker 3: I want to be his friend so badly. Oh, my God,

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Speaker 3: And you know what it all stems from. I once

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Speaker 3: had a dream that I was in home goods sniffing

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Speaker 3: candles and I looked over and he was doing the

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Speaker 3: same thing, and we were making the same gagging faces

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Speaker 3: and laughed, and then I was like I woke up.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I got to this guy's natural affinity and

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Speaker 3: I need to be Marshall Lynch's friend.

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Speaker 2: I've met him, have you. Yeah, I've been at his

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Speaker 2: soul food place in Oakland. I met him. Like, I

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Speaker 2: didn't really get to like talk and hang out with

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Speaker 2: him because I was doing a whole story and they

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Speaker 2: told me to do it like a Frank Sinatra as

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Speaker 2: a call where you don't really talk.

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Speaker 3: To him, talking about around him, Okay.

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Speaker 2: And also when he came in, I just wanted to

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Speaker 2: leave him be so like I didn't even really have

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Speaker 2: a moment that my respect for him was so great.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not going to even bother you.

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Speaker 3: He's amazing. I've been to that restaurant, rob Ben's Best

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Speaker 3: Wings ever.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, I do you recommend it? Hit me up

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Speaker 2: if you ever in Oakland.

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Speaker 3: So number one, Marshall and Lynch amazing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, don't.

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Speaker 3: Say San France. Yes, honestly, if you want to be local,

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Speaker 3: called the city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Are you cool with SF?

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Speaker 3: Not really?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Are you cool with I'm.

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Speaker 3: Cool with very little in life. So anyway, let's get

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Speaker 3: back to j T.

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Speaker 2: Okay, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 3: So he's calling helplines and that's how he gets connected

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Speaker 3: with this child psychologist. And when he's going through all this,

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Speaker 3: he gets rescued from the San Francisco streets by an

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Speaker 3: outreach worker named Emily Fraser aka Speedy english Woman. I

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Speaker 3: should say so. She also had survived these same streets,

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Speaker 3: and Speedy told The New York Times that when she

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Speaker 3: first met JT, he was in a psychotic haze and

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Speaker 3: quote would walk into cars because he couldn't see they

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Speaker 3: were there having a rough time. So during their phone calls,

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Speaker 3: the psychologist encouraged JT to write down all of these

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Speaker 3: intense stories that he had been sharing. He thought it

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Speaker 3: would be very cathartic write this down, and also he

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Speaker 3: had away with words, and so the therapist he wanted

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Speaker 3: to share a story with one of his group therapy

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Speaker 3: sessions of Troubled Teens. The story was called Balloons. It

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Speaker 3: was about heroin. Apparently it was a huge hit with

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Speaker 3: the kids for some reason. So this doctor he passed

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Speaker 3: along balloons to his neighbor too, who was a book editor,

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Speaker 3: and then that neighbor passed the story along to someone

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Speaker 3: else in the industry, and so on and so on.

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Speaker 3: And around this time JT started going by his government

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Speaker 3: middle name Terminator. So this is in the New York

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Speaker 3: Times quote. Mister Leroy began to write fan letters to

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Speaker 3: authors and artists he admired, many of whom, to his surprise,

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Speaker 3: wrote back. He corresponded with Sharon Olds, Mary Carr, and

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Speaker 3: Dennis Cooper, all of whom eventually offered him feedback on

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Speaker 3: his writing. Wow, so he's you know, he's making these connections.

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Speaker 3: Dennis Cooper, who's going to be important in this story.

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Speaker 3: He's an American writer. His themes are similar to those

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Speaker 3: explored by J. T. Leroy, sex, drugs, surrealism, punk, ethos,

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Speaker 3: queer desire, existentialism. So JT generally started off his correspondence

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Speaker 3: via fax, I told you this was a very nice

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Speaker 3: and if you aren't sure what a facts is, look

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Speaker 3: it up. I'm not going to explain it because it's

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Speaker 3: going to make me feel even older than I am.

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Speaker 3: He said that he'd been given the fax machine as

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Speaker 3: a gift from a trick and it was his lifeline.

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Speaker 3: So he said that he would find public restrooms where

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Speaker 3: he could like hole up in the stall and surreptitiously

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Speaker 3: facts away. How these bathrooms had a working phone jack

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Speaker 3: is beyond me.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't It does not make sense.

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Speaker 3: And again, like, if you don't know what a phone

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Speaker 3: jack is, look it up while I drown myself in

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Speaker 3: a bucket of crystal pips.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't sounds right, You don't put it phone.

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Speaker 3: No, it doesn't make any sense. But that's what he's

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Speaker 3: telling people. So JT and writer Dennis Cooper they talked

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Speaker 3: a lot on the phone. This is according to Vanity Fair. Quote.

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Speaker 3: Terminator told Cooper he was a huge, huge fan and

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Speaker 3: wanted to interview him for a music magazine. The questions

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Speaker 3: never really materialized. He seemed to mostly want to talk

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Speaker 3: about himself, Cooper says, but the two struck up a

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Speaker 3: phone relationship and Terminator began showing Cooper his work. Also quote,

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Speaker 3: Cooper always felt he was being used, that perhaps JT

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Speaker 3: wasn't telling the truth about everything. I'd get forty minutes

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Speaker 3: of I love you. I'd be dead if it wasn't

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Speaker 3: for you, says Cooper, and then abrupt segue, would you

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Speaker 3: mind talking to this reporter for me? It was clear

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Speaker 3: I was being used to legitimize this project, but I

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Speaker 3: felt like, how can I begrudge this kid? I thought

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Speaker 3: he was going to die any minute?

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Speaker 2: Wow, Cooper thought.

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Speaker 3: JT might die any minute because terminator revealed to him

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Speaker 3: that he had Caposi's sarcoma as a result of HIV.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, the original diagnosed original lucy sarcoma, and he

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Speaker 2: said it had disfigured him. It's his skin cancer.

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Speaker 3: It shows up exactly all these lesions, and it's that's

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Speaker 3: why he only faxed and talked on the phone. He

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Speaker 3: said he just couldn't be seen. So while he wasn't

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Speaker 3: going out in public, he was churning out writing. By

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Speaker 3: the time he was sixteen, JT was published regularly in Nerve,

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Speaker 3: Remember Nerve, and New York Press. In ninety seven, a

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Speaker 3: short story of his called Baby Doll was published in

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Speaker 3: an anthology called Close to the Bone. By seventeen, he

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Speaker 3: had a book deal.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, and he's not even doing crimes and

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Speaker 2: he got a book deal.

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Speaker 3: I know he had his uncle signed the deal for him.

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Speaker 3: So his advance was about twenty four thousand dollars, and

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Speaker 3: twenty four thousand dollars in ninety seven is like forty

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Speaker 3: five thousand dollars to day, which is a pretty healthy advance,

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Speaker 3: particularly for a first time author.

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Speaker 2: Who I don't even get advantage that.

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Speaker 3: No, So when he was nineteen, the British magazine The

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Speaker 3: Face called him a literary wonder kin. He was the

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Speaker 3: literary talent of the day, especially for those in like

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Speaker 3: the underground spaces.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and in the nineties were very better word, very

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Speaker 2: grungey in terms of all things being like.

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Speaker 3: Dirty, yeah, exactly. And I remember the buzz around him

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Speaker 3: at that time. He was a cult hero, so everyone

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Speaker 3: wanted a piece of him, and they wanted him at events,

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Speaker 3: but he would never appear. According to a two thousand

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Speaker 3: and five New York Magazine article, in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 3: JT asked a friend of his to impersonate him at

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Speaker 3: readings because he was so nervous. Quote he recommended I

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Speaker 3: rent Bastard out of Carolina and study the accents. But

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Speaker 3: I never did, and my attempt was half hearted and weak,

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Speaker 3: but then he came up with the idea of having

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Speaker 3: celebrities do the reading for him because like, don't forget,

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Speaker 3: he's from West Virginia, so he has a Southern accent.

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Speaker 2: And a very pronounced accents.

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Speaker 3: So celebrities. Did I mention celebrities?

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Speaker 2: We love them?

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Speaker 3: You know you you hit us with the celebrities on Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: Celebrity Week, Elizabeth, but you had.

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Speaker 3: Like the glossy you know, two thousand and six to

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Speaker 3: young No, I'm talking about, like you said, the grungy Indie.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot in j. T. LeRoy's orbit. We're

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Speaker 3: talking Wanona Ryder, Eddie Vedder, Bono, Tom Waits, Calvin Klein,

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Speaker 3: Sandra Bernhardt, Madonna, Shirley Manson of Garbage, Gus van Zantz,

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Speaker 3: of course, Maryanne Faithful, Dewie, Harry Phoenix read Rufus Wainwright.

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Speaker 3: Phoenix had passed by that. Yeah, wasn't it ninety four

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Speaker 3: either way? But this is so this is like, you know,

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Speaker 3: he was thirteen that fourteen, and yeah, so anyway, Rosario Dawson,

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Speaker 3: Michael Stipe, John Waters, Stephen Jenkins from whatever is it?

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Speaker 3: What man is that? Third eye blind? Yeah, Carrie Fisher

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Speaker 3: and Courtney love.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, so this is very of the moment.

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Speaker 3: Who's of late nineties Edgie people like Carry Fisher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah so.

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Speaker 3: JT's first novel, Sarah, was published in two thousand. He

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Speaker 3: was just twenty years old. The book was supposed to

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Speaker 3: be a fictionalized account of his childhood as a prostitute

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Speaker 3: at truck stops throughout the South. Heidi Benson wrote for

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Speaker 3: sf Gate. Quote praise poured in from well known authors.

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Speaker 3: Mary Gateskill called it a quote wildly comic, tour de

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Speaker 3: force and a brilliant debut. Dennis Cooper called it a revelation.

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Speaker 3: Among those thanked in the book's acknowledgments are Art Spiegelman,

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Speaker 3: Sharon Olds, and Tobias Wolfe.

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Speaker 2: Wow yeah.

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Speaker 3: Vanity Fair, in the introduction to an interview between JT

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Speaker 3: and Tom Waits, called JT quote the brilliant, gifted, and

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Speaker 3: profound fly on the wall. He is the witness to

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Speaker 3: all the tales that go on in the dark, and

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Speaker 3: for all of us long, may he have the courage

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Speaker 3: to remember.

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Speaker 2: For all those of you who missed Jim Harrison, here

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Speaker 2: you go.

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Speaker 3: Exactly so Tom Waite said to JT in the interview, quote,

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Speaker 3: the world is a hellish play, and bad writing is

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Speaker 3: destroying the quality of our suffering. It cheapens and degrades

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Speaker 3: the human experience when it should inspire and elevate. You

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Speaker 3: are an exception. So just getting like, hi, praise Gus

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Speaker 3: van Zandt director Gus Vanzent. He got pulled into JT's thrall,

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Speaker 3: which makes sense seeing has how their aesthetics are like

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Speaker 3: spot onto each other and.

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Speaker 2: Also all the male hustler stuff. Or he's interested in

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Speaker 2: that vibe of like changing intimacy.

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Speaker 3: For completely and like they're saying, like everything that goes

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Speaker 3: on in the dark all it's like dark underbelly. So

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00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 3: van Zant wanted to option the rights and adapt Sarah

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Speaker 3: into a movie, So he met with JT and Speedy

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Speaker 3: about this. Remember Speedy, the street kid turn advocate who

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Speaker 3: helped save JT.

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Speaker 2: She was first save walking into cars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so she was right there with him through

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Speaker 3: everything van Zandt. He never ended up optioning Sarah, but

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Speaker 3: JT did apparently write the first draft of his movie Elephant,

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Speaker 3: which won the Palm d'Or at two thousand and three

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Speaker 3: con Film Festival. None of his script made it into

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Speaker 3: the final edit, but he did nab an associate producer credit.

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Speaker 2: Is that the one about the Little the Colorado shooting

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Speaker 2: and the think.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, he JT was working on an animated children's

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Speaker 3: movie and an indie TV series. He had this massive

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Speaker 3: online following. He had his email address printed in his

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Speaker 3: books and he encouraged his fans to reach out. They

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Speaker 3: called themselves termis It's not as cool as rude dremies.

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Speaker 3: In two thousand and one, The Heart Is Deceitful Above

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Speaker 3: All Things was published. So this was a collection of

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Speaker 3: short stories that was written to be a prelude to Sarah.

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Speaker 3: After that book came out, Asia Argento, the actress, slash

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Speaker 3: director and daughter of Italian horror movie director Dario Argento,

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Speaker 3: she wanted to option the book for film, and so

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Speaker 3: Speedy and JT went to Italy to kind of like

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Speaker 3: settle this deal.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of dark energy.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god. So during this trip, JT did his

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Speaker 3: first live reading and he was so nervous because apparently

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Speaker 3: he was huge in Italy. He's so nervous that he

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Speaker 3: hid under a table and did the reading from there.

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Speaker 3: What and the crowd just ate it up. They loved this,

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Speaker 3: like it just fits in precious the presureus. So JT

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Speaker 3: and Azia ended up having a bit of a thing

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Speaker 3: and both on the phone and in person over a

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Speaker 3: couple of visits, and there was even a rumor that

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Speaker 3: JT had fathered Azzia's child whoa. Yeah. So JT and

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Speaker 3: Azia they worked together to adapt the book into a screenplay,

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Speaker 3: The Hardest Deceitful. She told The Guardian, quote, I love

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Speaker 3: JT truly as a friend. He's somebody who will be

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Speaker 3: in my life forever. It wouldn't have been the same

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Speaker 3: film if we didn't trust each other.

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Speaker 2: I don't trust her.

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Speaker 3: It's like this meteoric rise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So besides directing, she also starred in the movie as

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Speaker 3: JT's mother, Sarah. The movie premiered at Con in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and four, and it was released in the States

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and six. The reviews not so mixed. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: The New York Times wrote quote, Viewer discretion is advised,

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Speaker 3: if only because it's well nigh unwatchable.

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Speaker 2: Outshit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So. In two thousand and four, his third book

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Speaker 3: came out. It was called Harold's End, and it was

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Speaker 3: about a young prostitute who adopts a pet snail.

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Speaker 2: Of course I love those stories.

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Speaker 3: So he signed with Viking for another book. He optioned

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Speaker 3: the film rights to Sarah. He wrote a piece for

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Speaker 3: The New York Times called The Sophisticated Traveler Uncle Walt

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Speaker 3: Parley Vu Francis. This piece was about a trip to

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Speaker 3: Disneyland Paris, which was paid for by The New York Times,

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Speaker 3: that he took with Speedy. Her husband asked her, and

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Speaker 3: then there then eight year old son four. Wow, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of a weird group. Yeah. So as his fame grew,

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Speaker 3: so did a desire for public appearances. He's got to

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Speaker 3: do this and hand. But like JT's not comfortable with

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Speaker 3: appearing in public. Still you know, the skin and everything

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00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 3: still bad, I guess. But he was willing to power

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Speaker 3: through for the sake of his fans. Per Vanity fair

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00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 3: quote a waif like androgynous figure hiding behind sunglasses, big

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Speaker 3: blonde wigs and a girlish whispering voice. He would sit

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Speaker 3: tremulously to the side. As a coterie of famous, mostly

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Speaker 3: female admirers, JT went on European tours, attended splashy parties

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Speaker 3: with rock bands, took home racks of free designer clothes,

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Speaker 3: and appeared in a feature in an Abercromi and Fitch catalog.

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Speaker 2: I thought you're gonna say, a Vincent gallow film.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, that who's missing from this? Well he

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Speaker 3: got over all this anxiety pretty quick. Let's take a break,

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Speaker 3: rud duds, All right. When we come back, we'll continue

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Speaker 3: to follow JT. Le Roy's meteoric rise and eventually get

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Speaker 3: to some legal entanglements. Welcome, Elizabeth Zamon. We're talking JT.

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Speaker 3: Leroy today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are.

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Speaker 3: I think you know where I'm going with all this.

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Speaker 2: I kind of do, yes, friends, I won't lie.

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Speaker 3: There was no JT. Leroy. No, he did not exist.

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Speaker 3: He was the creation of a woman named Laura Albert

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Speaker 3: aka Speedy.

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Speaker 2: So he by myself from the streets.

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Speaker 3: Laura Albert was born in nineteen sixty five. She grew

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Speaker 3: up in Brooklyn, New York. She had a really rough childhood.

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Speaker 3: She was abused at home, bullied at school. Her first

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00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 3: case of inventing someone happened when she was twelve. She

401
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 3: was into this neighborhood kid, ray Like. She had this

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00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 3: huge crush on him, but she was sure that he

403
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Speaker 3: would never like her back. So she called him and

404
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 3: said that She was a blonde Swedish friend of hers

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Speaker 3: named Katrine, and she just happened to be visiting Laura

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Speaker 3: while being super attractive. She just wanted to chat and

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00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 3: they talked to every but they never met, and Katrine

408
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: eventually told Ray that she was dying of cancer. Then

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00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: Laura broke the news survey that Catrin had died. So

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00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 3: it's heartbreaking for a bodacious blonde to visit from another

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Speaker 3: to visit from another land, get cancer and then die.

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Speaker 3: I hate when that happens. She left universal health care

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Speaker 3: to come here and go into death debt.

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Speaker 2: We lost all that bodaciousness. It's such a bad move.

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Speaker 3: So Laura dropped out of school when she was thirteen

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Speaker 3: and her mom checked her into a psychiatric ward. When

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Speaker 3: she got out, she wouldn't leave her room. She felt

418
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,919
Speaker 3: like this misfit, like she didn't fit in. But she

419
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 3: pretty soon found out that there was a place for

420
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Speaker 3: troubled misfits, for the ones who just didn't fit in

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Speaker 3: a place where you could be accepted and be whatever

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Speaker 3: whoever you wanted to be. That place the New York

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Speaker 3: City punk scene, Oh God, bless it.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So she loved the lifestyle of it, but she still

426
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Speaker 3: had like so much body shame that she didn't want

427
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Speaker 3: to go in person. I feel your sister, So instead

428
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Speaker 3: of going, she recruited her sister Joanna to go in

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Speaker 3: her place. And so Laura got her all dulled up

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Speaker 3: and told her that, you know who she should talk

431
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Speaker 3: to and like who she should meet.

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Speaker 2: She prepped her for the scene.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Joanna would come back and report everything

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Speaker 3: back to her.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's fascinating.

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00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 3: So nineteen eighty nine she moved to San Francisco, Okay,

437
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: and she worked a lot of odd jobs, made a babysitter,

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Speaker 3: a phone sex operator, a blood donor. And it was

439
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 3: while she was working the phone sex line that she

440
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 3: perfected the Southern accent that she would later use as

441
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: JT in her seemingly endless phone calls with therapists and

442
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 3: celebrities alike. Zarin, close your eyes.

443
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: Oh you suck it up on me.

444
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 3: I want you to picture it. It's nineteen ninety dateline,

445
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 3: San Francisco. You are a burgeoning private eye trying your

446
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 3: best to be the Northern California Anthony Pelicano. Yes, you

447
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 3: have tapped the phone of a local electronics mobile. No,

448
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,719
Speaker 3: he's not in tech. He owns an electronics store. His

449
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: wife has hired you to catch him cheating. So there

450
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 3: you are, hold up in your office south of market,

451
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: listening in on the phone calls he makes from his

452
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 3: office at the back of the store. You hear the

453
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: line engage in the number, get dialed. It rings. Well,

454
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: Hello there, darling. A voice with a syrupyan exaggerated Southern

455
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: accent draws. Is this a dial of fantasy? Oh no,

456
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 3: you think to yourself, I do not want to hear this,

457
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 3: but the wife may be interested, so you keep listening

458
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 3: it sure is? What can I do you for? Is

459
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: there someone I can talk to who doesn't have the accent? No, honey,

460
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: I'm the only one here. Is that a TV on

461
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 3: in the background. You can hear it too? Is that

462
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 3: he tell me what you lacks? Sugar? Don't you want

463
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: to describe to me your armpits? What?

464
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: No?

465
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 3: I think I've made a mistake. No, don't hang up.

466
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 3: Just tell me about your armpits? You know what. I'm

467
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 3: going to stop this before it's worth saren So.

468
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 2: Anyway, just topped it out of your own.

469
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I opted out. It was God, it went too far.

470
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: Get a lot of pit play. So Laura began calling

471
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 3: suicide hotlines under the personas of like various teenage.

472
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: Boys just pretending to work on her act, Yeah, to

473
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: work out the bit.

474
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 3: One of them was jt this character that she created,

475
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 3: that's the one that landed for her. She met a

476
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 3: guy named Jeff in nineteen eighty nine and they hooked

477
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 3: up and started writing songs together. They started a band

478
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: and they called it Daddy Don't Go Jesus, which is

479
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 3: the most late eighties early nineties Cisco band. So Laura,

480
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 3: she was like a natural at faking her identity, so

481
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: she'd like pretend to be the band's publicist and call

482
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 3: around and get him gain Prescott. So Laura reached out

483
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 3: to Dennis Cooper in nineteen ninety six, like she's super

484
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 3: into his writing, but thought that he didn't want to

485
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: hear from some lady in her thirties. She thought that

486
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: he'd want to connect with someone more like himself. Oh okay, Yeah,

487
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 3: she reaches out as jt Uh. In that Paris Review interview,

488
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: she said, quote, he was someone I revered, but when

489
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 3: I read my work to him on the phone, I

490
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 3: understood that as much as he liked my writing. He

491
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: was also turned on. He thought he was talking to

492
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 3: a thirteen year old boy, and he was always inviting

493
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: me to his house. I thought sexual attention is better

494
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 3: than no attention. I'd learned on the street from outreach

495
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 3: workers that if you get into a dangerous sexual situation,

496
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 3: you just tell the man you have aids. That was

497
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 3: the last resort survival strategy. So I finally put the

498
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 3: brakes on and I said I had aids and sores

499
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: all over my body. It didn't FaZe him at all. Oh,

500
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: so this is a huge accusation against Dennis.

501
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 2: Comes like, I need to pick my job, put it

502
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: back where some were useful.

503
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 3: Wow, I like anyway, So.

504
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 2: The nineties of all that jumped out, and he's on

505
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: the top of them.

506
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 3: Here, she's telling all these tales, Scooper, so oh yeah,

507
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: I mean yeah. So she enrolls in writing classes at

508
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 3: City College of San Francisco.

509
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: Did he ever repeated it like allegator to speak to him?

510
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: I think I think he did, but I don't have it.

511
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I just carry it.

512
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: That's horrible.

513
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: Wow, I don't know if he was a live or

514
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: dead essentially, Yeah, no.

515
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: He's live. So she didn't have a computer, so she'd

516
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: write her assignments by hand and then fax it to

517
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: a friend who would transcribe with a word processor and

518
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: fax it back, which seems like a lot of work

519
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 3: when like, even in the nineties colleges had computer labs

520
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 3: on campus free for use.

521
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: Totally libraries did too.

522
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Whatever. What I've learned about Laura Albert is

523
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: that she one hundred percent never let the truth get

524
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: in the way of a good story.

525
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, definitely, so one of my people. She buckled down.

526
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: She wrote Sarah in a six month marathon after her

527
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 3: son was born in nineteen ninety seven. She said she

528
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: felt that JT wanted to write, so she went along

529
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: with it. Yeah, she was. She caught the spirit of it.

530
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: Oh wow, the characters really worse speaking. Yeah.

531
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: In two thousand and five, the creator of Deadwood, David Belchi, yeah,

532
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: reached out to Laura slash speedy. He wanted JT to

533
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: write for the show and so bad. Yeah, that would

534
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: have been pretty rad. So Laura huge fan of the show,

535
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: like super into it. She was so geeked to have

536
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: the opportunity to work on her favorite show and talk

537
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: to its creator that she spilled the beans to him. No, girl,

538
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: guess what I'm gt.

539
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: Oh, you have to forget the truth and the writing gig.

540
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: Of course he didn't tell anyone though, and by that time, yeah,

541
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: around that time, like twenty or thirty people knew about

542
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: the secret, mostly like friends and family, including oddly enough,

543
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 3: Billy Corgan. He's a weird one.

544
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: Dude, Smashing Pumpkins. He's like a.

545
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: Super conspiracy guy.

546
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 2: Now revve he's a weird one in a group of

547
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: weird ones.

548
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard that that Smashing Pumpkins played like a

549
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 3: Disney thing.

550
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: He's actually like a spokesperson for them, you say, a

551
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 2: holiday thing.

552
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: Yes, everything is just so weird now over it. Anyway,

553
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 3: it was about this time that Laura and Jeff separated.

554
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: He broke off because of like the stress of the

555
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: whole thing was just getting to him. Sooner or later,

556
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: people were going to find out, and Laura just kept

557
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 3: digging them deeper and deeper. It all had to come crashing,

558
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: you don't know. So. In October of two thousand and five,

559
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: New York Magazine published a piece by Stephen Beachie called

560
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: who is the Real JT. Leroy? Oh? Exactly?

561
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: So?

562
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: The article pointed out a lot of the hanky stuff

563
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 3: surrounding Leroy. There was a whole like that whole physical

564
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: persona issue. By the way, who was this appearing as him? Yeah,

565
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 3: that my loves is Savannah.

566
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: Knob, Savannah Canob.

567
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: Savannah is Jeff's sister.

568
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and she could believably do the.

569
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: Accent right, Yeah, exactly, and so and more like a

570
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: big glasses gone with. Savannah identifies as non binary now

571
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 3: but at the time was using she her pronouns. But

572
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go with they for all this.

573
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 3: It's you know, it's important to be conscientious about pronouns.

574
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: I didn't get that right away, Like I didn't understand it.

575
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: And it's it's not like I wanted to like misgender anyone.

576
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: I just didn't get why it mattered, because like I

577
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: don't care if you call me her or him whatever,

578
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: what do I care? But for like those to whom

579
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: it does mean a lot. You know, it's a really

580
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 3: small effort on my part for like a big acknowledgment

581
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: and show of respect.

582
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: Totally.

583
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 3: It's kind of like, you know, when there was just

584
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: miss and missus and like women decided to use miss

585
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 3: yeah and a lot of people were upset and they

586
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: didn't know why when Yeah, exactly, and now it's the default,

587
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: which is amazing.

588
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: So also it reminds me of Okay, I have friends,

589
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: you know, we all have friends who get married and

590
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: then when they get married, they take on a new name.

591
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: But if I know them by their old name and

592
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: say their old last name was one of the nicknames

593
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: I used, it would be rude of me to continue

594
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: calling them by the nickname I prefer because that's how

595
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: I know them. When the person goes through transformation, you

596
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: got to like honor that if you care about them.

597
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: So I totally get that well, and.

598
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: If it matters to them, it matters to me exactly. Yeah.

599
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: So like, if you're the type to bristle at the

600
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: pronoun thing, ask yourself why it bothers you, Like, it's

601
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: just to kindness you show others. Always take the opportunity

602
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: to show a kindness. Thank you. So anyway, Savannah. In

603
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, Laura turned to Savannah and asked

604
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: them to be JT in public. So Savannah fit the

605
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: bill because they were more androgynists looking and like super charming,

606
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: like crazy magnetic.

607
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

608
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Laura said, Savannah quote had this amazing spark of

609
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: star quality. Savannah picked up the accent quickly, but quote

610
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: it took her a long time to commit to being JT. Well,

611
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: it was just difficult. It was like this weird transformation.

612
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: So also, it's a kind of horrendous background. You got

613
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: to talk about pain.

614
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: And sama and you have to be able to.

615
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: Getting excited about hearing these stories.

616
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 3: Right, bad blonde wig and you know how I love

617
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 3: a bad wigea we both do go cat sunglasses. They

618
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: also bound their chest to kind of pass for mail.

619
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: They were able to nail the southern accent, but they

620
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: got by most of the time by just not saying

621
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: anything at all.

622
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: That's smart.

623
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and enforced that shy persona.

624
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: Right.

625
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 3: So but here's the thing, like Savannah didn't have any

626
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: lesions on their skin.

627
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: But like my question, you assume as success comes, maybe

628
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: they could do some dermatological work or whatever. Yeah, there's

629
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: a lot of us who were dumb would think, well,

630
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: of course they no longer have that. They're famous now totally.

631
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: So back to that October two thousand and five New

632
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: York magazine piece, who is the real JT?

633
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: Who is the real JT.

634
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: It talked about the questions and all the discrepancies around

635
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: JT's physical appearance. There was nothing definitive in it, but

636
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: it did point out, quote, every trail I followed led

637
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: me to Laura, so it's all coming back. So people

638
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: who interacted with JT regularly noticed that his phone presence charming, thoughtful, seductive,

639
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: was nothing like how he was in person in person, quiet, shy,

640
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 3: kind of like over the whole meeting people that he

641
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: had talked to and written to for years.

642
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: So it's not even like, yeah, it's the people who

643
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: they've been charming with on.

644
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: The follow him in person. It doesn't make sense.

645
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: They don't hold that vibe at all.

646
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

647
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: That would be really off putting. You immediately think lie

648
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: or like crazy drug habits.

649
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: Oh my god, totally So in that Heidi Benson SFGate piece,

650
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: she writes quote. The expose originally written for the San

651
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: Francisco Bay Guardian, whose editors didn't think the story was

652
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: ready for publication, so Beachie's agent placed it with New

653
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: York inspired a flurry of follow up stories and created

654
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: chatter equal to that sparked by Laroy's celebrity relationships.

655
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: Damn.

656
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Beachie did speak with someone who was supposed

657
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: to be JT for the piece. He asked about all

658
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: the questions surrounding his identity quote. JT wouldn't confirm or

659
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: deny it, although as we spoke for more than an hour,

660
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 3: it felt to me that I was speaking to Laura,

661
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 3: and it felt like both of us knew that, and

662
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: that this was a novel and disturbing experience for us both.

663
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: He she spoke about metaphorical truth, about pure of intent

664
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: and a commitment to writing. He seemed to be both

665
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: justifying the performance and asking not to be exposed such

666
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: a strange like psychological whatever, and also the.

667
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: Idea that they can get people on board with them, yeah,

668
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: to protect them there.

669
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Even without hard proof, the article was a bombshell.

670
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: Laura and Savannah went into damage control mode. They assured

671
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: all of the celebrity pals that JT did in fact exist,

672
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: and that Stephen Beachey just jealous, just a jealous.

673
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: Fellow that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

674
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: No, the smell was in the air and the New

675
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: York Times entered The New York Times. Oh yeah, according

676
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: to that sf Gate article quote. Soon after the article ran,

677
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: they killed a story Leroy had written for its November

678
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: travel section. They asked him to show identification, and he refused.

679
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: They asked me for my passport, my Social Security card.

680
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: The roy told Women's Wear Daily they knew exactly what

681
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: they were getting when they delt with me. I've always

682
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: played with identity and gender.

683
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: Oh, I've always played with identity and gender.

684
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: So let's take a break. When we come back, we'll

685
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: get to the moment we've known as coming, the moment

686
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: we've all been waiting for the public exposure of the hopes.

687
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: Okay, dude, Yeah, what a girl.

688
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: Monday, Januesday Night.

689
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: Wednesday, Happy days.

690
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: Now it's gonna be my head.

691
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: You're welcome, thank you.

692
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: On Monday, January ninth, two thousand and six, The New

693
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: York Times published a piece by the writer Warren Saint

694
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: John the title the Unmasking of J. T. Leroy in

695
00:33:58,600 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 3: Public He is a she?

696
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like the whole attitude of unmasking and

697
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: ending on that, I mean, that's just so.

698
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 3: Saint John had been burned already, you can hear it

699
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: in he'd written a feature on j in The Times

700
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: two years prior in two thousand and four, exactly, he

701
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: interviewed JT on the phone and in person. So Saint

702
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: John was determined to get to the bottom of the story.

703
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: Now the Beachy article.

704
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: Is in primature to them, so they're really mad about

705
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: He's really mad about that.

706
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Saint John he uncovers a two thousand and

707
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: three photo of Savannah Canoop as Savannah at an opening

708
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: of a clothing store in San Francisco. So Saint John

709
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: then showed that photo to the other person in the picture,

710
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: JT's agent, his business manager, and Lily Bright, who was

711
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: a producer for the film directed by Ossi Argentine. They

712
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: all identified Savannah as JT. So like, so much for

713
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: those Argento paternity rumors, right, those were apparently started by Laura.

714
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: Oh I was wondering why along.

715
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 3: With exactly well, and also remember that piece about Disneyland Paris.

716
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: Saint John looked into the expense report for that trip,

717
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: since The New York Times had paid for everything. Oh,

718
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: it only listed air for for three people, not four.

719
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: Yes, and remember it.

720
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: Was supposed to be JT. Speedy, Speedy's husband and thor Yeah.

721
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: So he then got in touch with the staff at

722
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: Disneyland Paris and two Paris hotels where they stayed. They

723
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: recognized Laura and said only her husband and son were

724
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 3: traveling with her, so no one who resembled Savannah slash JT.

725
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: They talk about a woman scorned, but reporters scorned exactly.

726
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: So Saint John reaches out to JT's lawyer to ask

727
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: about JT's identity. The lawyer sent him a statement from

728
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 3: JT that said, quote, as a transgendered human subject to attacks,

729
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: I used stand ins to protect my identity. Yeah, like,

730
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: bridge too far, Laura.

731
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: Now you're you're really putting a lot of other people

732
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: exactly too a risk of being questioned and challenged. And really,

733
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: I mean that's really selfish.

734
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: It's really really selfish. So the article came out and

735
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 3: things were looking grim. Courtney Love, you know, she's gonna

736
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: be the voice of reason in this. Yeah, so she

737
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 3: she was now on the STAE. She told Laura ak

738
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 3: Speedy that she should go on to Oprah because quote,

739
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: America loves redemption and love. Courtney Love is like, I'll

740
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: go with you.

741
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: She's been through it. I can tell you redemption works

742
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: even for a girl like.

743
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 3: Me, exactly, Laura refused, so she said, quote, I wouldn't

744
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: play that game. I wouldn't get up there and say

745
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: I have sinned against culture, I have transgressed. I'm sorry.

746
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to rehab. No, I wasn't a sinner. That

747
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 3: was my lifeline. JT kept me alive.

748
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: I see their point. I mean, honestly, I utill you

749
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: see their point. But for them, but then there's but

750
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: then they're moving that to the rest of the world

751
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: and insisting it's true there too.

752
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 3: That's exactly so. In February of two thousand and six,

753
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 3: Jeff confirmed the whole story to The New York Times.

754
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: Quote.

755
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: In their interview, mister Kanoop outlined the origin and execution

756
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: of the scheme, which he said was motivated initially by

757
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: his and miss Albert's shared desire to have their artistic work,

758
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: his music and her writing acknowledged by a wider audience.

759
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: We did it to get some things.

760
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 3: Jeff also said that he ran the day to day

761
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 3: business for JT, and in a later interview, he said

762
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 3: that he had been quote like a vice president equivalent,

763
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 3: of course, who knows if he's telling the truth. He

764
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: was trying to get in on the reveal by shopping

765
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: books and appearances. God, yeah, everyone's just like Craven. Speaking

766
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: to Interview magazine, Yes, Laura gave some context around that time. Quote,

767
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: there was a perfect storm at the New York Times.

768
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: Then they just had the scandals with Jason Blair and

769
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: what of mass destruction in Judith Miller. And it was

770
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: right around the time of James Fry. You have to

771
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 3: contextualize it. Their credibility was already being questioned, and then

772
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 3: they had JT Right for the Times. And what did

773
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 3: I cover for them? Disneyland, Paris. You know what really

774
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 3: makes me sad was that my books had meant so

775
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 3: much to so many people, and now they were being

776
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 3: encouraged to think, Oh, she was lying, she's laughing at you.

777
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: You've been tricked.

778
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: That's what happened.

779
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened. You know who got tricked? Asia Argento,

780
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 3: Oh my damn straight. In twenty sixteen, she said, quote,

781
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: it's the most shocking thing that's happened to me in

782
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 3: my life. And believe me, I'm the Queen of shock.

783
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: Not even my father could come up with such an

784
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: intricate plot. It is something I cannot forgive. I couldn't

785
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: do movies as a director for ten years because I've

786
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 3: been fooled. I'm a fool. How could I not see it?

787
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: It made me feel worthless, to be honest, I didn't

788
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: have a lot of self esteem after that. It took

789
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: me a long time to rebuild it. I was lost,

790
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 3: so forgiveness. It's a beautiful thing of saints and martyrs,

791
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: but I can't let it go. I was manipulated. It's

792
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: time for me to say that.

793
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: Wow, now let me get at Anthony Bourdain and ruin

794
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 2: his life. Sorry, every time I hear I don't know

795
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: the truth of that. I honestly nobody does. From the outside.

796
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: I find it to be a dark influence that that

797
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: this queen of shock. I can see how she was

798
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: hurt and she needed to have people be around her,

799
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: and I can see how they could be sucked into

800
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: all of this. So there's a lot of a lot

801
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: of movie part of emotions and darkness swirling.

802
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, Well, it's an argento. The Guardian asked Savannah

803
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: if they felt bad about lying to Asia Argento quote.

804
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: I spent enough time with her at the end so

805
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 3: that basically I felt like we connected on so many

806
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: other things, and it was this whole thing. At some

807
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: point I told Azia that she could call me Savannah.

808
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: I don't know why. H yeah.

809
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 2: So when they're hanging out in person, yeah a lot,

810
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: a lot, like how I don't understand. Okay, I just

811
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't get it.

812
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean so, JT's literary agent livid, absolutely livid.

813
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: They didn't.

814
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 3: No, he wanted an apology, so the story about JT

815
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 3: having aids to invoke sympathy was just too much for him.

816
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 3: Couldn't do it. Oh yeah, Laura wouldn't apologize. Instead, she

817
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 3: sent him an email saying that Richard Gear should play

818
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: him in the movie, and she signed it with love us.

819
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: All oh mom. Yeah.

820
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: She later said quote, I didn't deny the rumors, but

821
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 3: I never made any statement intended to further JT's popularity

822
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 3: by claiming he had aids, like just wading into that

823
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: water at all.

824
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: I have a cousin who's like this, and he's reminded,

825
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: like I'm getting the feelings I get when they used

826
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: to tell me. Look, I didn't say that. I mean,

827
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: if you believe that and I didn't correct it, that's

828
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: not my fault. Yeah, yeah, whoa you knew I thought that.

829
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. La Weekly asked the agent if he would

830
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: have represented Laura had she queried as Laura Albert. He said, quote,

831
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: it would have been no if it had been Laura Albert.

832
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: I find her on pleasant and you know, there's a

833
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 3: big difference between helping a young man and someone whose

834
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: careerism becomes bigger than the work itself. Look, I understand

835
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 3: if you're a kid and you've been shot upon, then

836
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: having the attention of celebrities is okay. This might be

837
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: your biggest redemption. Ooh, I talked to Madonna. But when

838
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 3: it's a forty year old adult, no.

839
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: You shit have the butter knife and get to work.

840
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: You know how the heart with a rusty spoon. That

841
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: was amazing.

842
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 3: The disgust was not universal. Shirley Manson of the band

843
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: Garbage wrote in the on the band's blog, which remember

844
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: Bland quote, I suppose you will have read all the

845
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: controversy about JT and the press, suffice to say that

846
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 3: the books remain a marvel, and whoever wrote them is

847
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 3: still a genius, whether they are a man, a woman,

848
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 3: or a wilderbeast. It's perfectly fair that people are confused

849
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: and up in arms about it. But if you've read

850
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 3: the books and understand them, why on earth would you

851
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: ever assume that the person who wrote them was your

852
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,479
Speaker 3: regular nine to five cookie cutter Joe.

853
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: They make something, and she makes some good points about that. Yeah,

854
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 2: the old situation. But at the same time, like, I'm

855
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 2: a big believer that any writer can write the story

856
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: of any person, But it's how you choose to do

857
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: that that's really important. You can't then borrow their voice

858
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: and write as them write person exactly. It's right from

859
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: the standpoint of knowingly with the reader aware. I am

860
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 2: an outsider talking about something. I am somebody in parallel

861
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: talking about something he can't be.

862
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: I am that, you know, Yeah, exactly. Well, Gus van

863
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 3: Zandt said quote, I still kind of believe that he exists,

864
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 3: just not in the flesh. I think he exists in

865
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 3: Laura's head. Either it's something she obsessively works on as

866
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 3: a character or it's something she can't help but work on.

867
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: Well, it reminds me of Beyonce. Sasha Fierce. Yes, Sasha

868
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: Fierce real or not? When you see her on stage,

869
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: that's Sasha Fierce. Well, is that a real person.

870
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: What about Chris Gaines.

871
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: For Oh, you want to take it there, Garth Brooks,

872
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: Chris Gaines is that a.

873
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: Real personal person his experiences.

874
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: Chris Gaines is the real one, the character.

875
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,479
Speaker 3: Yes, he is the avatary. Here's what comedian Margaret Schow

876
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 3: wrote on a which jolt of that quote. I love J. T. Leroy,

877
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: whether he is she, whether he she rolled John's or publishers,

878
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 3: whether the stories are true or make believe.

879
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 2: I love that same opinion.

880
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 3: Here's what Laura says, quote, I reject the word hoax.

881
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: To me, a hoax is something you do for an

882
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 3: opening weekend to get people into a movie. For me,

883
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 3: it wasn't like that. It was Jeremiah's true story as

884
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: told to me. The thing is, I realized that JT's

885
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: world was so complete it didn't need me. It was

886
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: self sustaining. There were holes in it, but the emotional

887
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 3: truth was so present that people stayed in that world.

888
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: I was able to move into myself. A magician throws

889
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 3: the light and hides an elephant in the dark. I

890
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: was able to throw the attention.

891
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: Simon Naj got in trouble with this when he was

892
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: using it for his comment. He told his story, but

893
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: then he changed it with his emotional truth to make

894
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 2: it more resonant than the actual facts would move. But

895
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: that's that it's a slippery slope because once you do that,

896
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: it called him to question all your other facts.

897
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 3: Well right, and here's what else she said quote many

898
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 3: people were inspired that someone so young could write what

899
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: I was writing. JT is fifteen years younger than me.

900
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: All I can say is I'm sorry if people are

901
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 3: disappointed or offended. If, knowing that I'm fifteen years older,

902
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 3: then Jeremy devalues the work, then I'm sorry they feel

903
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: that way. I'm totally aware it sounds wacky, but I

904
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 3: never really thought of it in terms of right or wrong,

905
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 3: truth or lie. It was more like two computer programs

906
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: running in my head. There was him and there was me.

907
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: I get that. I totally get what they're saying about

908
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: to their experience. But as I said earlier, that can

909
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 2: be true for you. But once you go and connect

910
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: to others, to readers in particular right now, it's a

911
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: different expectation for you. Yes, computer programs running in your

912
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 2: head whatever, I forget.

913
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: That, But when you go out, you know what else

914
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 3: it becomes fraud a lie.

915
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a frau exactly.

916
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 3: By the time of the reveal, a production company, Antidote

917
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 3: International Films, had signed a contract to option the rights

918
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: to Sarah and Laura as JT got paid twenty four

919
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. Antidote spent one hundred and ten thousand dollars

920
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 3: working on the film, so they sued Laura. They wanted

921
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 3: the money back. They said the contract was void because

922
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 3: it had been signed by JT, an imaginary person. So

923
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 3: Laura's lawyer said Antidote was really trying to get like

924
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: to back out of doing the movie. The contract was

925
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 3: for the book, but the script they ended up with

926
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 3: wasn't good. So with the reveal, the director wanted to

927
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 3: pivot and use Laura's story, but Laura refused to grant

928
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: the rights.

929
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: It would have been crazy if Laura had gone to

930
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: some like small local paper and put in the ad

931
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: for two weeks of doing business as JTY and would

932
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: have been fine totally.

933
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 3: So Laura lost the lawsuit because her you know, supposition

934
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: of this was not true. She was ordered to pay

935
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: Antidote one hundred and sixteen thousand, five hundred dollars to

936
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: cover the contract plus the damages you know, on top

937
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 3: of that, and then she had to do three hundred

938
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: thousand dollars in legal fees. Oh so there. In the

939
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 3: time since, there have been some films about J. T Leroy.

940
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: Twenty fourteen's documentary The Cult of jt Leroy. One of

941
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: the producers was Stephen Beachy, twenty sixteen documentary author The JT.

942
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 3: Leroy Story, which is told pretty much from Laura's point

943
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 3: of view. The twenty eighteen movie jt Leroy, based on

944
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 3: Savannah Canoops two thousand and eight book Girl Boy Girl,

945
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 3: stars Kristen Stewart as Savannah Slash JT and Laura Dern

946
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: as Laura Slash Speedy, and Laura wants everyone to forget

947
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: this happened.

948
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: How beout they do quote, I don't talk about.

949
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 3: My past because I think it will somehow give legitimacy

950
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 3: to what I've written. Anyone should be able to do

951
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: what I did. My background is irrelevant. I don't offer

952
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 3: my life's history as any kind of excuse. We should

953
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 3: all be able to assume different voices. That's the idea

954
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: of art, to be able to go to new worlds.

955
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: And Laura later said that JT was quote my respirator.

956
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 3: He was my chain aimal for air to me. If

957
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 3: you take my JT, my Jeremy, my other, I die.

958
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 3: And she compares JT to Tinkerbell, who exists if you believe,

959
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 3: and bugs Bunny, who does not exist but lives.

960
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so those are both hand drawn like they don't

961
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?

962
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: What'sous now?

963
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: I was. I was in San Francisco at this time,

964
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: and I met a lot of people who use a

965
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: lot of arguments like this, and I had a even

966
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: just as a graffiti artist, you get to known as

967
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: your tag, right, and then you imbue it with this

968
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: thing and it becomes this thing that's larger than you,

969
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: and people know it and they talk about it, and

970
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: can you can hear people talking about this person that

971
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: is you but it's not you. So I get it

972
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 2: on a ground level. But even then, even as somebody

973
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: who's doing crimes with an imaginary character as my avatar

974
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: if you will, you still wanted people to know it

975
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: was you. I mean, there was there was one great

976
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: graffiti artist enemy and she nobody knew who she was,

977
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: and we were so practically figured it out right, and

978
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: then we figured out. She was this art student. We

979
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: were riding the buses. We kept seeing this girl. We're like,

980
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: so one day we went up the end, We're like,

981
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: are you enemy? And she's like, you know, I don't

982
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: tell anyone. And we figured out I know her real name,

983
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, because she was like turned out. We know anyway,

984
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. But the pole point is her identity

985
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: was something we wanted to protect. So I understand how

986
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: she thought people could turn to her and protect her, right, dady,

987
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: we kept her secret. She asked us, we don't tell

988
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: anybody that it's me, and we're like, of course, and

989
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: we did because you want to. So this person, Laura,

990
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: was playing with real human desires to have community and

991
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: to look out for people and to identify with another

992
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: as an outsider, and they was taking all that and

993
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: only using it for themselves. They were not then engaging

994
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 2: as we were in the back and forth of the community.

995
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 2: When you're an outsider, you have to rely on mutual aid,

996
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: you have to rely on honest relationships. You can't have

997
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: it be that this person is conning you, because then

998
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: they're just one more you know, crappy criminal, you know.

999
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: And she was basically doing that to everybody because they

1000
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: had been hurt this was okay, or because they're an outsider.

1001
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: Because you're an outsider, it's actually less okay.

1002
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: Well, in the audacity to try and like step into

1003
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 3: the shoes of someone in a marginalized community totally and

1004
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 3: putting all these disgusting you know, it's so you can't

1005
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: like support the people who need to tell their story.

1006
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: Here's the thing too, She's obviously a great writer, sure so,

1007
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: And I can understand this notion of you publish and

1008
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 3: then if you find out this this woman in her thirties,

1009
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 3: no one's going to listen. But write it as you

1010
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 3: write these characters and demonstrate it. And if you feel

1011
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 3: like you have to get in, you know, to slip

1012
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: in to get published, use initials in your last name

1013
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 3: if you feel like. But otherwise, let the writing stand

1014
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 3: for itself, you know. And it's like, but taking on

1015
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 3: this other persona is just so selfish and so weak, and.

1016
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: It's a con I mean, it's it's you're just stop

1017
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: respecting the very people you're saying you're doing this for.

1018
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 3: People write under a novel, yes, but to then take

1019
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 3: it to the like this personal level with a ton

1020
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 3: of people and.

1021
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 2: Doing all the work to push the lie that you know,

1022
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: as a lie. It's not just like there's this figure

1023
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 2: like we're not talking about like as you put a

1024
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: non diplume or some kind of like, oh, I can't

1025
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 2: do this because in my real world I'm an accountant

1026
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 2: and I can't let people know I'm writing about this.

1027
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: That's a different type of self protection than what Yeah.

1028
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there are thirty year old women who

1029
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 3: get stuff published out there that's really meaningful, so total

1030
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 3: it's doable, I think too. You know, they she and

1031
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 3: her husband enjoyed the trappings of this. I mean they

1032
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: got a ton of designer clothes out of it and

1033
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 3: all this sort of free stuff and just taking advantage.

1034
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 3: I feel bad for the people who really felt invested

1035
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: in this because they felt like there was a kindred

1036
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 3: spirit who was speaking their story too. And it's like,

1037
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: you know, make it a fictional life the story. Yeah, exactly.

1038
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 3: So that's my ridiculous takeaway. Thank you for asking.

1039
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: That was great. That was a good one. Dulous takeaway.

1040
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 3: Thank you. As a dicey one, I gotta admit I

1041
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 3: was this was a tightrope. I felt there was a

1042
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: lot of knife work, but you know, thank you for

1043
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: following along with me. You can find us online at

1044
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: ridiculous crime dot com. We're on Twitter and Instagram as

1045
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 3: Ridiculous Crime. You can email us at ridiculous Crime at

1046
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: gmail dot com. You can also leave a talk back

1047
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: on the iHeart app. Do we have one for today? Talk?

1048
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 2: Oh? God, I love you, I thank you, babe? Ga?

1049
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: Oh you wanted to talk back to you?

1050
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 3: Okay, Uh, that's it. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth

1051
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 3: Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by J. T. Kusten.

1052
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 3: Research is by Marissa I only let Patti Smith read

1053
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 3: my work in public Brown and Andrea I'll just be

1054
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 3: here hiding under the table song Sharpened Tear. The theme

1055
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: song is by Thomas Lee, Travis Dutton and their son Thor.

1056
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: Host Ward is.

1057
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 3: Provided by Botany five hundred. Executive producers are New York

1058
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 3: Times Accounts Payable clerks, Ben Bowen and Noel Brown.

1059
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: Ridicous Crime Say It One More Timeous Cry.

1060
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts

1061
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,279
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1062
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,200
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