Speaker 1: My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I get my
Speaker 1: assistants at people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep
Speaker 1: taking credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where
Speaker 1: I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
Speaker 1: from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
Speaker 1: perfume to what to do if you drink too much
Speaker 1: at the company party. Let's get started today. We are
Speaker 1: going to talk about micro managers. When you look at
Speaker 1: all the different categories of bad management, micromanagement, a boss
Speaker 1: who hovers and is just way too involved in your
Speaker 1: work is one of the most common categories. And what's more,
Speaker 1: a lot of bosses who micromanage do this confusing thing
Speaker 1: where sometimes they're really really hands off, and then suddenly
Speaker 1: they swoop in and they're really hands on. And that
Speaker 1: is the situation that today's color is in. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: So you sent me a letter saying you've been at
Speaker 1: your job a little less than a year and overall
Speaker 1: you really like it, but there is a problem. Your
Speaker 1: boss is a very respected person in your field, but
Speaker 1: you're only the second person he's ever managed, and it
Speaker 1: kind of shows. Sometimes you will go long stretches with
Speaker 1: no interaction with him, but when he is stressed about
Speaker 1: a big project or something important, he micro manages you
Speaker 1: big time, and he does it in a way that
Speaker 1: makes you feel like he thinks you're not competent. You
Speaker 1: wrote in your letter to me that he'll explain your
Speaker 1: own work back to you, even when you've been spending
Speaker 1: days working on it. And on a recent project, he
Speaker 1: was checking in on your progress literally every fifteen to
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, doing this thing where he was finding mistakes
Speaker 1: in real time and correcting them before you had even
Speaker 1: had a chance to look over your work. And those
Speaker 1: were cases where you would have found those mistakes yourself
Speaker 1: if he had just stepped back and given you some room.
Speaker 1: And you wrote that it's gotten so bad that it
Speaker 1: aims you have been ending the day crying. Am I
Speaker 1: getting all that right? Yeah? That's it was very specific
Speaker 1: to that project that I was working on, but I
Speaker 1: started to get the impression that this is a trend
Speaker 1: that I should begin addressing. Yeah, And I also want
Speaker 1: to note that you said that you know you're a
Speaker 1: good employee, and he actually poached you from your old
Speaker 1: job to come work for him, so you know that
Speaker 1: he likes your work. It's not a case where he's
Speaker 1: covering because your work is bad. Right. I think that's
Speaker 1: an accurate description, And I would even go as far
Speaker 1: to say as like we are friends. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I'm so adamant about trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to address this properly, is because I
Speaker 1: like the way that we work together, and I think
Speaker 1: we have a really good working relationship and I don't
Speaker 1: want to damage that by saying the wrong things or
Speaker 1: critiquing the way that he manages me. Tell me more
Speaker 1: about that. What is your relationship like with him? So
Speaker 1: we professionally have like known of each other for some time.
Speaker 1: We work in a some small industry, so everyone kind
Speaker 1: of knows each other, so to speak. And I've always
Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for him, And have you
Speaker 1: know when I was looking to move jobs, his was
Speaker 1: a name that I knew and was honestly very flattered
Speaker 1: when I got the email because I was I was
Speaker 1: shocked that I did not expect expect him to know
Speaker 1: who I was. I'm a junior level staffer and he's
Speaker 1: more of a senior level management person in our field,
Speaker 1: and we have we work very well together. Um our
Speaker 1: current situation is, uh, we are remote, so he isn't
Speaker 1: always in the office with me at the same times,
Speaker 1: and so I think that also plays a role in
Speaker 1: that hands off aspect where I will go a very
Speaker 1: long time without talking to him. But because it's when
Speaker 1: he's actually in the office that the micro managing picks up.
Speaker 1: And how comfortable do you feel with him? It sounds
Speaker 1: like you have a pretty good rapport. Yeah, very comfortable.
Speaker 1: We talk about, you know, very personal things he you know,
Speaker 1: recently his mom passed away, and that's definitely become a
Speaker 1: consideration for me as I think about how to have
Speaker 1: a conversation with him about this micromanagement style that he has,
Speaker 1: because I he is such an empathetic boss in terms
Speaker 1: of things that I've experienced personally, and then I've tried
Speaker 1: very hard to be him be there for him in
Speaker 1: this time and so you know, we share personal effects
Speaker 1: with each other because I think he just wants to
Speaker 1: foster that kind of open relationship with the people that
Speaker 1: he works with, both a co workers and people he manages. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think his mom dying definitely changes the calculation and
Speaker 1: when you might address it with him that while that
Speaker 1: is still really fresh, let's not give him another thing
Speaker 1: that's stressful to put on his plate. But I do
Speaker 1: think a couple of months down the road, it's definitely
Speaker 1: something that you can bring up that you do want
Speaker 1: to be sensitive to that timing, of course. Okay, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about micro management generally, and then I
Speaker 1: want to get into some specific advice on what you
Speaker 1: might do here. So I think the first thing to
Speaker 1: talk about is what micro management means, because people use
Speaker 1: it to describe a whole bunch of different things. It
Speaker 1: is not just being involved in your work, because good
Speaker 1: managers do stay involved in things like getting aligned on
Speaker 1: what outcomes you're going for, and checking in on progress
Speaker 1: as work is progressing, and giving feedback and sometimes course
Speaker 1: correcting when it's needed. That's all good managers should be
Speaker 1: doing that stuff. Micro management, though, is when a manager
Speaker 1: is dictating exactly how to do the work, watching over
Speaker 1: every step in the process, refusing to delegate any real
Speaker 1: decision making, and constantly well I should say and or
Speaker 1: and or constantly checking up on work that you have
Speaker 1: shown in the past that you can do well. And
Speaker 1: micro managers will often manage really low importance projects the
Speaker 1: same way that they will manage high importance projects. They
Speaker 1: don't always differentiate in their approach based on what's actually needed.
Speaker 1: And I think there are a few reasons why people
Speaker 1: micro manage. The big one, and I think it is
Speaker 1: true of every micro manager, is that they genuinely do
Speaker 1: not know a better way. They don't actually know how
Speaker 1: to manage when they've delegated work, but they're responsible for
Speaker 1: ensuring that it's done and that it's done well, and
Speaker 1: so they swoop in with this terrible style because they
Speaker 1: don't have different tools and this is the only way
Speaker 1: they can think of to make sure that things get
Speaker 1: done well. I do that there can be more to
Speaker 1: it too. I mean, of course, for a lot of
Speaker 1: micro managers, it's rooted in control. You know, they don't
Speaker 1: trust their staff to do good work without constant supervision. Again, though,
Speaker 1: that's not knowing how to manage, because if you're managing effectively,
Speaker 1: that's not really something you need to worry about, because
Speaker 1: you do have systems for making sure that everyone is
Speaker 1: aligned about the work at the outset. You have set
Speaker 1: checkpoints along the way where you check in on progress
Speaker 1: so there won't be any surprises. But again, micro managers
Speaker 1: don't know how to do that. Now, sometimes people complain
Speaker 1: that they're being micromanaged, when what is really happening is
Speaker 1: that they've given their boss good cause to doubt the
Speaker 1: reliability of their work. That does not sound like the
Speaker 1: case here. I'm just covering this for the sake of
Speaker 1: being being thorough. I don't think this what's happening with you.
Speaker 1: But sometimes a manager will start managing more closely because
Speaker 1: the person has shown that they need it, And then
Speaker 1: you get people complaining about being micro managed when really
Speaker 1: their manager is managing appropriately for the situation. So in general,
Speaker 1: if someone is feeling micromanaged, it's always good to do
Speaker 1: a gut check, you know, ask yourself, is there anything
Speaker 1: I've done that could be leading to this, Like have
Speaker 1: I been missing deadlines or letting things fall through the cracks,
Speaker 1: or you know, not incorporating my boss's feedback into my
Speaker 1: work that kind of thing. And actually, let me pause
Speaker 1: here and ask I don't and I'll get this, get
Speaker 1: the sense of that is the situation. But let's make
Speaker 1: sure does that stuff sound like what could be happening here? No,
Speaker 1: I don't get that impression either, And I ask a
Speaker 1: lot of questions in my that's my work style. I
Speaker 1: just I ask a lot of questions. And I think
Speaker 1: the problem, one of the big problems that I have noticed,
Speaker 1: is sometimes he misinterprets questions as ignorance. And oftentimes it's
Speaker 1: a fact finding mission for me, not a let's explain
Speaker 1: to her or the A B c's of this process. Uh,
Speaker 1: And that's what I meant by explaining my own work
Speaker 1: back to me. It's oftentimes I'll have spent days on
Speaker 1: a project and he knows that I've spent days on
Speaker 1: this project, and I'll ask just a clarifying question and
Speaker 1: find that his response involves all a lot of the
Speaker 1: work that I've already done, and if he just, you know,
Speaker 1: had had had read that or seen that, he just
Speaker 1: jumps to the conclusion that I don't know what I'm
Speaker 1: doing at times. And I don't think that's because is
Speaker 1: he doesn't think I know what I'm doing. It's because
Speaker 1: he's been the leading expert in this field for so long,
Speaker 1: and I don't think he thinks anyone knows what they're doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a personal thing. Sometimes not always.
Speaker 1: Sometimes with that dynamic, you can kind of head it
Speaker 1: off by saying to yourself, Okay, I know that he
Speaker 1: has this tendency. If I just ask the question with
Speaker 1: no caveat and no prelude, I'm going to get this
Speaker 1: whole long explanation that I don't need. And so I'm
Speaker 1: gonna preface it with I have X, Y, and Z
Speaker 1: totally covered and I'm fine there, but I have a
Speaker 1: question for you about this one piece of it, and
Speaker 1: then ask your question so that you're sort of framing
Speaker 1: it for him in a very explicit way. Do you
Speaker 1: think something like that could help I do. I think
Speaker 1: that's I think about that a lot in terms of
Speaker 1: conversations going forward. But it's almost hard in the slack
Speaker 1: I am generation, where like oftentimes I'm asking what I
Speaker 1: think is a thirty second question, but the nature of
Speaker 1: how we just shoot off quick questions over instant messaging,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes when I think is a thirty second question,
Speaker 1: he thinks it's. It's almost a generational thing. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if that makes any sense, but I'm like, this
Speaker 1: is a this five second this five word question will
Speaker 1: be answered in no time, but he wants to write
Speaker 1: a small paragraph about it. Yes, So I mean it
Speaker 1: might be that you just do an experiment here and
Speaker 1: try the framing that I'm talking about a couple of
Speaker 1: times and see it, like, be very deliberate about making
Speaker 1: yourself to it, even when you are thinking, this is
Speaker 1: just a quick question, and see what happens, see if
Speaker 1: it works. Because if it does work, great, Now you
Speaker 1: know that that you just have to be really really
Speaker 1: explicit about what you do and don't need um. But
Speaker 1: it could be an interesting experiment to try. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: never thought about doing it that way. I never give
Speaker 1: set up because I you know, he gives me projects
Speaker 1: to work on, so I assume he knows what I'm
Speaker 1: working on. So sometimes I kind of just jump into
Speaker 1: the meat of it without taking a step back to
Speaker 1: be like, if I don't provide some context, I'm going
Speaker 1: to get that paragraph explanation I'm dreading. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: it could also be like, yeah, he knows what you're
Speaker 1: working on, Cassie assigned it to you, but it might
Speaker 1: not be at the top of his mind at that
Speaker 1: very moment, you know, especially if you're doing it over
Speaker 1: I am or something. He's absorbed in something else. You're
Speaker 1: asking him this question. He's not necessarily pausing to think, Oh,
Speaker 1: of course, she's been like deep in the stuff for
Speaker 1: the last few days. I don't need to give her
Speaker 1: this background. He might not even be making that connection
Speaker 1: in his head. Yeah, I never I never thought about
Speaker 1: it that way. That's a great point. I mean, I
Speaker 1: could be wrong, and you could try this and it
Speaker 1: might not work, but I think it's worth trying and
Speaker 1: seeing what happens. Let's do a short break here, and
Speaker 1: then I want to come back and talk about micro
Speaker 1: management some more and then get into what to do
Speaker 1: from here. Another thing I wanted to note about micro
Speaker 1: managers is that in general, this pattern that you are
Speaker 1: seeing with your boss, where he switches from really hands
Speaker 1: off to way too hands on, is really common. And
Speaker 1: what tends to happen is that a manager starts off
Speaker 1: pretty hands off, give someone a lot of leeway to
Speaker 1: run with a project, and then maybe it doesn't go
Speaker 1: according to plan because the manager didn't set clear enough
Speaker 1: expectations at the start, So then they vow that they're
Speaker 1: going to be involved much more closely next time. I
Speaker 1: don't know that that's what's happening here for you. It
Speaker 1: sounds like it could be like there's a little bit
Speaker 1: of out of sight, out of mind going on when
Speaker 1: he's not in the office, and it sounds like maybe
Speaker 1: when something is a stressor to him, if he gets
Speaker 1: more involved, then so I think that is maybe not
Speaker 1: the explanation in your situation, but it is a really
Speaker 1: common one. Yeah, I do think that is partially the situation,
Speaker 1: especially for my example that I had given him my
Speaker 1: initial um letter to you because we were working under
Speaker 1: a really tight deadline. So he had given me a
Speaker 1: project that with a forty eight hour deadline. But when
Speaker 1: I started working on it, I realized pretty quickly, no,
Speaker 1: this is forty eight hours worth of work, but he
Speaker 1: needs me to get done in forty eight hours, So
Speaker 1: you know, I pulled close to all nighters, and then
Speaker 1: on the second on the third day when it was due,
Speaker 1: he became very stressed that it wasn't done. But the
Speaker 1: reality was I didn't feel like I was given enough
Speaker 1: time to begin with to do the project. And so
Speaker 1: then suddenly he started stepping in all the time being like,
Speaker 1: do you have this, do you have this? Do you
Speaker 1: have this on repeat every fifteen to thirty minutes, which
Speaker 1: are valid questions, but I don't know if they would
Speaker 1: have been the case if he had said a realistic timeline. Ah, yep,
Speaker 1: so it normally I don't feel like what you're describing
Speaker 1: as the case, but I have seen that and I
Speaker 1: think it can be a little bit of both from
Speaker 1: my situation. Yeah, so it might be that there are
Speaker 1: things that you can do in your end to head
Speaker 1: some of this off at the start, Like so if
Speaker 1: we could go back in time, which sadly we cannot
Speaker 1: too when he was first giving you that project, if
Speaker 1: you knew at the start this is a really tight deadline,
Speaker 1: and it sounds like you did know that you might
Speaker 1: do some expectations setting with him, and maybe you did,
Speaker 1: but if you didn't, it could be useful to say. So,
Speaker 1: I want to let you know, I think this is
Speaker 1: a really tight deadline. Um, I can put in a
Speaker 1: lot of extra hours and try to make it work,
Speaker 1: but it does mean that it's going to be kind
Speaker 1: of a rush, and then you might spell out for
Speaker 1: him what that means, like if you think about the
Speaker 1: sorts of things that he was concerned with on the
Speaker 1: last day. If you're able to kind of prep him
Speaker 1: for that being the case ahead of time, it might
Speaker 1: help manage his expectations. Yeah. I try really hard to
Speaker 1: do stuff like that, but it work. Creep is such
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, the projects looked like a two day
Speaker 1: project until I actually got into the weeds and realized
Speaker 1: that the actual expectations of each of the components were
Speaker 1: going to take so much time. But you're right, I
Speaker 1: did figure that out probably within the first two to
Speaker 1: three hours of work, and I should have taken a
Speaker 1: step back and said something, but I am such a
Speaker 1: I consider myself a very deadline driven person and really
Speaker 1: want to make them and so it was respond appropriately.
Speaker 1: I have that same problem too. I completely understand what
Speaker 1: you're saying. There is benefit to it, so I think, like, again,
Speaker 1: you might just try experimenting with it if you're in
Speaker 1: a similar situation in the future, and just see if
Speaker 1: it does make it better, because if it does, that's
Speaker 1: going to kind of reinforce in your head, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I should speak up about this again when it happens. Now.
Speaker 1: Big picture, I mean, we can talk about these strategies
Speaker 1: forgetting it, small pieces of those, but big picture, I
Speaker 1: think at some point you do want to try talking
Speaker 1: to your boss about this style that he gets. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: before I get into how you might do that, have
Speaker 1: you tried doing that yet at all? Not really, And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is because we have
Speaker 1: such a good working relationship that I'm afraid to speak up.
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that I'm going to ruin our relationship or
Speaker 1: by even And I don't know. This has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with micro managing specifically. It just has to do
Speaker 1: with like employee boss relationships, Like I'm always nervous to
Speaker 1: critique my boss because I think there are a lot
Speaker 1: of bosses out there that will take it poorly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I've had experience and some previous jobs we're speaking
Speaker 1: up had had an impact on my work there and
Speaker 1: my time there. Frankly, I don't think that's this is
Speaker 1: the case. I think that we he wants me to
Speaker 1: stay and has no interest in finding a way to
Speaker 1: get me fired, especially because he's the one that brought
Speaker 1: me over. But I'm still nervous about bringing it up,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to not be nervous. I
Speaker 1: think you will be nervous. I think I don't wait
Speaker 1: until you can find a way to not be nervous
Speaker 1: as a sign that like a ha, now it's the
Speaker 1: time for me to speak up, because he will probably
Speaker 1: always be nervous. It is an inherently nerve wracking thing
Speaker 1: to do, especially the first time you're doing it with
Speaker 1: a particular manager, because you haven't seen yet firsthand how
Speaker 1: they react to that kind of thing. So I would say,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to be nervous. Don't let that be
Speaker 1: a reason to not do it. I absolutely hear you
Speaker 1: on some boss is reacting really badly to people bringing
Speaker 1: up issues in their working relationships. You've got to know
Speaker 1: your boss. I mean, if you look at him and
Speaker 1: you think, okay, he's always been pretty reasonable with me, like, yes,
Speaker 1: we have some differences, but in general he is like
Speaker 1: a rational person who doesn't shoot the messenger, who doesn't
Speaker 1: get really defensive when he hears something that he doesn't like.
Speaker 1: Those are signs that you can probably have the conversation.
Speaker 1: If you were telling me, oh, no, actually he's super
Speaker 1: defensive and kind of a mean guy, then then I
Speaker 1: would not be recommending the conversation that I'm about to have.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you respect him and you have
Speaker 1: pretty good rapport. Yeah, I think that's that is. I
Speaker 1: don't think I know that is an accurate characterization. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I'm going to tell you how I would say it.
Speaker 1: And this isn't going to be precisely right because I
Speaker 1: don't have the details, but I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: kind of generally how I would frame it. I would
Speaker 1: sit down with him and say something like I was
Speaker 1: hoping we could talk about something I've noticed about how
Speaker 1: we're working together. A lot of the time, you give
Speaker 1: me a lot of autonomy, which I really appreciate, but
Speaker 1: I have noticed that on some projects you'll manage my
Speaker 1: work so closely that it can be hard for me
Speaker 1: to even complete my portion of it. For example, on
Speaker 1: the X project recently, you are checking into my work
Speaker 1: so frequently that you were finding mistakes in real time
Speaker 1: before I had had a chance to review it. And
Speaker 1: that meant that you thought I was making mistakes that
Speaker 1: would never have been in the finished work that I
Speaker 1: turned into you, except that you kept coming back to
Speaker 1: look at it while it was still in progress. And
Speaker 1: it was pretty demoralizing because I wasn't having a chance
Speaker 1: to perfect it before you saw it. And then I
Speaker 1: know I'm harping on at one example that you gave
Speaker 1: me because I was so I was so egregious. So
Speaker 1: maybe give another example or two here of times when
Speaker 1: it has happened, and then say, when that happens, it
Speaker 1: makes me feel like you don't think I'm competent. And
Speaker 1: I do think that I have a track record of
Speaker 1: good performance and attention to detail and asking questions when
Speaker 1: I need to, and so it can be tough to
Speaker 1: be managed in a way that makes me feel like
Speaker 1: you don't see me as capable. And I want to
Speaker 1: be clear that I absolutely welcome guidance and feedback, but
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is a way to structure how
Speaker 1: that happens so that I'm still trusted to get my
Speaker 1: work done without that kind of really close over say,
Speaker 1: or is there a reason that you don't feel like
Speaker 1: you can trust me without such a close oversight? And
Speaker 1: then see what he says, but at some point in
Speaker 1: the conversation, you're going to need to propose, well, actually,
Speaker 1: let me pause there before I go into this next piece.
Speaker 1: Deep does that feel like something you could imagine saying
Speaker 1: it does? And I don't think he would react negatively
Speaker 1: to the feedback like that uh. In fact, I can
Speaker 1: already kind of sense that he will say something along
Speaker 1: the lines of improving our communications in general, and I
Speaker 1: think some of that is so tough by having a
Speaker 1: boss that's remote currently and then sometimes in the office,
Speaker 1: like the dynamics of how we communicate inherently shift. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to find a standardization around that. But
Speaker 1: I think that would be a very reasonable way for
Speaker 1: me to approach it with him, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that he would react negatively to that. And I think
Speaker 1: I really think it's a stress like he tries to
Speaker 1: carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, which
Speaker 1: is very admirable, but I sometimes don't oh as an employee,
Speaker 1: like I want to help I want to help him
Speaker 1: be not as stressed, But if he's projecting that stress
Speaker 1: back onto me, then it's just creating this weird, unhealthy dynamic. Yes, absolutely, well,
Speaker 1: I like that you think you could have that conversation
Speaker 1: and it would go okay. I want to point out
Speaker 1: the tone that I was using for that, because it's
Speaker 1: not like a complaining tone. It's a tone of like, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to fix this, Like I see this problem.
Speaker 1: I feel like you and I can do better. Can
Speaker 1: we talk about how to make that happen. So it's
Speaker 1: not like I'm just venting to you I hate that
Speaker 1: you might remanage me. It's more positive than that, and
Speaker 1: I think that helps. Let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: we'll be right back to talk about this some more. Now,
Speaker 1: at some point in this conversation, I would try proposing
Speaker 1: a specific alternative, Like I wouldn't just say it and
Speaker 1: then wait for him to figure out how to solve it,
Speaker 1: because there's a very good chance that he won't know
Speaker 1: how to solve it, Like if this is just sort
Speaker 1: of the way that he knows how to manage, he
Speaker 1: might not have anything specific to think of to do instead.
Speaker 1: So I would say, you need to be the one
Speaker 1: to say, could we try blank instead, and let's talk
Speaker 1: about what blank could be. So to a large extent,
Speaker 1: it depends on the details of what it is that
Speaker 1: he's trying to to not or that you are trying
Speaker 1: to get him to stop micro managing. But often for
Speaker 1: micro managers, the thing that they really want is a
Speaker 1: way to stay engaged enough that they know that the
Speaker 1: work is happening on schedule, that it's progressing the way
Speaker 1: that it should that there aren't going to be any
Speaker 1: awful surprises down the road, like discovering that the work
Speaker 1: that you've done is totally different from what he needed,
Speaker 1: or you miss some key deadline, or you didn't do
Speaker 1: it at all, or whatever it is that they have
Speaker 1: a fear of in their head. So what you've got
Speaker 1: to do is propose a different system that still gives
Speaker 1: them those things that lets the person stay engaged enough
Speaker 1: that he does know that things are progressing the way
Speaker 1: they should, and where he also knows that he will
Speaker 1: have a chance to give input or change direction if
Speaker 1: he needs to before it's too late, because that's usually
Speaker 1: what micromanagers want, that's what all managers want. Micro managers
Speaker 1: are just going about it the wrong way. So there
Speaker 1: is a way to get him that that does not
Speaker 1: require him hovering over you. Now, usually it would be
Speaker 1: something like regular status updates and regular check ins, which
Speaker 1: are a lot less annoying if they're scheduled out ahead
Speaker 1: of time and you both know when they're going to happen,
Speaker 1: rather than him like swooping in and asking to check
Speaker 1: in like every hour. So if it's a longer term project,
Speaker 1: you could say something like what I propose is that
Speaker 1: I send you data weekly or whatever time frame makes sense,
Speaker 1: so that you can see how the work is progressing.
Speaker 1: And then we could sit down and touch base for
Speaker 1: like half an hour every Thursday afternoon or whatever, so
Speaker 1: that I can update you about where we are and
Speaker 1: you can look over what I've done so far and
Speaker 1: get feedback. And then we can also talk really in
Speaker 1: depth at the start of the project so that we
Speaker 1: can both make sure we're on the same page, like
Speaker 1: that I know exactly what's in your head about what
Speaker 1: you're looking for, and you know that I know that,
Speaker 1: so that you can have confidence about the way I'm
Speaker 1: moving forward. For something shorter term, it's trickier. I mean,
Speaker 1: if it's something that's going to get done in a
Speaker 1: day or two, you're not really going to have progress meetings.
Speaker 1: That would be silly. So in that case, you would
Speaker 1: really lean into the part about getting aligned at the start,
Speaker 1: like really making sure that you know what is in
Speaker 1: his head, what it should and shouldn't look like, what
Speaker 1: he worries, the pitfalls are, and so forth. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? It does I, and I then definitely like
Speaker 1: the idea of check ins on progress. I think one
Speaker 1: tough thing for the organization that I work for is
Speaker 1: we are very Google Doc, Google Excel, whatever that equivalent is,
Speaker 1: Google sheet, That's what it is, Google sheet reliant, And
Speaker 1: so he can just lurk on the Google Doc as
Speaker 1: I work, and that that is where a lot of
Speaker 1: that came came in. On the specific project. He would
Speaker 1: just be watching me working in real time because I'm
Speaker 1: typing things into this Google Doc, and other than telling
Speaker 1: him to stop, which is absurd, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to reinforce to him that a weekly check in is
Speaker 1: going to be good enough when he can just watch
Speaker 1: me do work. Is that that sounds horrible? Do you
Speaker 1: have to do it in a Google Doc that he
Speaker 1: has access to? Um? Not really, It's just it's the
Speaker 1: way the company has always worked, where we have hundreds
Speaker 1: of unnecessary Google Docs for all of the work that
Speaker 1: we do. UM. And so any project, once a new
Speaker 1: once a new piece of it starts, is a new
Speaker 1: Google Doc or Google Sheet is created for tracking the
Speaker 1: information on the progress and all of that jazz. So
Speaker 1: I feel that it would be slightly passive aggressive if
Speaker 1: I said I'm going to do this and Excel and
Speaker 1: then upload it later, because that would be such a
Speaker 1: character shift for both myself and the organization that I
Speaker 1: think it would be easy for him to sense that
Speaker 1: something is awry. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you can't
Speaker 1: just because I was originally thinking just change it, just
Speaker 1: stopped doing that. But it sounds like you can't do
Speaker 1: that without saying something about it without it seeming weird.
Speaker 1: But I think it's worth saying something about um. I mean,
Speaker 1: I might say, Hey, the fact that you were able
Speaker 1: to go into the Google doc while I was working
Speaker 1: and see what I was doing in real time and
Speaker 1: spot what looked to you like mistakes but really weren't
Speaker 1: because I wasn't finished with it made it a lot
Speaker 1: more stressful for both of us. So when there's a
Speaker 1: project like that in the future, I might not do
Speaker 1: it in the Google doc while it's still ongoing. I
Speaker 1: might upload it later and just let him know. But
Speaker 1: I think with someone who has these tendencies, don't put
Speaker 1: temptation in his way. Okay, but I agree you have
Speaker 1: to address it and explain why so that doesn't look shady.
Speaker 1: The other thing, too, I think, is with all of
Speaker 1: this stuff, if he seems resistant or like he can't
Speaker 1: really figure out another way to do it he would
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with. One thing is you can try asking
Speaker 1: if he would do a short term experiment with you,
Speaker 1: like pick one project, one where you know that normally
Speaker 1: he would be nervous and kind of micromanaging about it,
Speaker 1: and ask if you can experiment with with managing it
Speaker 1: in a different way so that you can both see
Speaker 1: whether it goes better or not. And I mean you
Speaker 1: could even do that with the Google doc things, say hey,
Speaker 1: can we try it this way and just see how
Speaker 1: it goes, because that is actually much easier for a
Speaker 1: nervous micromanager to agree to, or any manager really, because
Speaker 1: you're not asking him for permanent change. You're just saying,
Speaker 1: let's try this one limited time project. We'll see how
Speaker 1: it goes. If it's a disaster, which it probably won't be,
Speaker 1: then fine. But if it goes okay, which it probably will,
Speaker 1: that can make it easier to be comfortable trying it
Speaker 1: with more things. I'm a big fan actually of proposing
Speaker 1: stuff as a short term experiment when you can see
Speaker 1: that your boss is kind of reluctant, because it's so
Speaker 1: much easier to get a yes to that. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's I'm definitely willing to do that, And I
Speaker 1: also think the timing works out really about we're actually
Speaker 1: bringing on another member of our team, so we're kind
Speaker 1: of in that natural state right now where we can
Speaker 1: hit reset because it's no longer I'm the only one
Speaker 1: currently being managed. It's not going to be a team
Speaker 1: of two, so expectation settings are going to shift regardless.
Speaker 1: So I feel like it would wouldn't it wouldn't even
Speaker 1: be out of the question to hit to hit reset
Speaker 1: and not having suspect almost like having the conversation without
Speaker 1: having the conversation. Not that I don't want to have
Speaker 1: the conversation, um, but I especially in the next couple
Speaker 1: of months, because I'm still very cognizant of all the
Speaker 1: personal things that have been going on for him. Figuring
Speaker 1: out a way to try to create little shifts without
Speaker 1: having this big conversation is kind of is helpful for me.
Speaker 1: Good good. I think if you do want to try
Speaker 1: talking to him directly, one other thing that you can
Speaker 1: do is you can even ask directly, like, are there
Speaker 1: things that you would want to see from me that
Speaker 1: would make you feel comfortable giving me more autonomy and
Speaker 1: situations like X and y because who knows, I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe you'll actually hear something like, yeah, I need you
Speaker 1: to be more consistent about X, or let's get you
Speaker 1: more training on why or I mean, who knows. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe he'll be stumped by that question and the answer
Speaker 1: is nothing, But it can be an interesting question to ask.
Speaker 1: And if the answer is nothing, sometimes I can kind
Speaker 1: of nudge a manager into realizing like, oh, I do
Speaker 1: need to kind of loosen up on the reins here. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I I agree. I'm the one thing I definitely want
Speaker 1: to bring up, UM because I do think it's relevant.
Speaker 1: Is I have my performance review next week, so much
Speaker 1: of what we're discussing right now I want to talk
Speaker 1: about and I feel like that's almost the perfect setting,
Speaker 1: But I know it's too soon, and so I'm kind
Speaker 1: of trying to think through in the next week or so,
Speaker 1: talking to you and thinking about changes I want to make.
Speaker 1: How do I have like the light version during my
Speaker 1: performance review UM without overwhelming him? Yeah, the performance review
Speaker 1: is such a perfect time to have this conversation. But
Speaker 1: I agree with you with it with his mom having
Speaker 1: just very recently died, I don't think you have to
Speaker 1: avoid it entirely. Especially in the context of a performance
Speaker 1: review or you're already you're already talking about how well
Speaker 1: you work together. I don't it's interesting. If you weren't
Speaker 1: having a performance review, I would say, yes, give him
Speaker 1: some space. He's got enough on his plate. If you're
Speaker 1: having the performance review, I think you can bring up
Speaker 1: a fair amount of this as long as you're doing
Speaker 1: it in like a positive way, like, hey, here's some
Speaker 1: stuff that I've noticed. I think there's ways that we
Speaker 1: could work better. Here what my thoughts are as opposed
Speaker 1: to like I'm so frustrated. It's the I'm so frustrated
Speaker 1: conversation that I would hold off on in the wake
Speaker 1: of a parents death. But if it really is just
Speaker 1: more like here's some here's some stuff about our working relationship,
Speaker 1: I think there's room for that. OKU, go with go
Speaker 1: with your gut on this, because you know him and
Speaker 1: you know the dynamic and so forth. But but I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a hard no because it would be
Speaker 1: in the context of your performance review. But if you
Speaker 1: don't do it, you can absolutely wait a month or
Speaker 1: two and still bring it up, Like, don't feel like,
Speaker 1: oh the you lost your window of opportunity and now
Speaker 1: it's closed, you can you can just bring it up
Speaker 1: as its own separate thing. Okay. Now, I do want
Speaker 1: to be clear that no matter what you try, it
Speaker 1: might end up being very hard to change the way
Speaker 1: that your boss is about this. It's still worth trying,
Speaker 1: and it's still worth at some point having that explicit
Speaker 1: conversation because it has made you so unhappy. And the
Speaker 1: nice thing about this is if you do have the
Speaker 1: conversation and nothing changes, now you know that nothing is
Speaker 1: likely to change. And I know that sounds very depressing,
Speaker 1: but actually it can be very empowering to know. Okay,
Speaker 1: I took the steps that were within my control to
Speaker 1: try to change this. I learned that there isn't anything
Speaker 1: I can do on my end that will change it.
Speaker 1: And now I can figure out what I want to
Speaker 1: do knowing that this is the situation, and that sometimes
Speaker 1: means deciding Okay, I don't love this, but I like
Speaker 1: enough other things about my job here that I will
Speaker 1: find a way to be okay with this, And at
Speaker 1: least I don't have to beat my head against the
Speaker 1: while trying to change it, because I've already tried and
Speaker 1: I know that it's not changing. Or sometimes it means deciding,
Speaker 1: you know, I can deal with this for a year
Speaker 1: or so, but after that I'm probably going to start
Speaker 1: looking for a different job. Or sometimes it means deciding,
Speaker 1: you know, hell no, I don't want to deal with
Speaker 1: more of this, And now that I know it's not changing,
Speaker 1: I'm really gonna work and getting out. But it makes
Speaker 1: your options so much clearer once you've had the conversation
Speaker 1: and and so you know what will and won't change. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope that's not depressing. No, it's not at all.
Speaker 1: And I know that that's a reality. And he has
Speaker 1: mentioned that he wants to kind of hit reset with
Speaker 1: this performance review. So that's why I didn't want to
Speaker 1: push back on the few months timeline, but I didn't
Speaker 1: want to miss a great opportunity. Yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: could do it. I don't think it's an absolute no
Speaker 1: go Okay. So does that help? Yeah? It does. And
Speaker 1: I feel that I just need to do some you know,
Speaker 1: internal soul searching from what that tone is going to be,
Speaker 1: because I think at the end of the day, tone
Speaker 1: is going to be the make or break um piece
Speaker 1: of the conversation. Totally agree, absolutely, um. And again I
Speaker 1: think the tone is I like you? I like working here.
Speaker 1: Here's this thing that I've noticed that where I think
Speaker 1: we could be more effective and can we just kind
Speaker 1: of problem solve with us together. Well, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show, Thank you for having me,
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Asking Manager Podcast. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to come on the show to talk through your
Speaker 1: own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org,
Speaker 1: or you can leave a recording of your question by
Speaker 1: calling eight five five T six work. That's eight five
Speaker 1: five F T six nine seven five. You can get
Speaker 1: more ask a Manager at ask a Manager dot org
Speaker 1: or in my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate
Speaker 1: clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your
Speaker 1: life at work. The Ask a Manager Show is a
Speaker 1: partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Deckett.
Speaker 1: If you liked what you heard, please take a minute
Speaker 1: to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be
Speaker 1: back next week with another one of your questions. M