1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: You remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars. They told 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: a year, and He's like, what, why would he do that? 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: living undercover all around the. 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, 9 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 2: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: created conspiracies. 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: weren't true. 14 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 15 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: news almost every day. 16 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 2: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 17 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 2: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 18 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mission Implausible, Adam. 19 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: There's a lot of discussion about the deep state and 20 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: what it is and so forth. Why don't you now 21 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: that you know John and I, why don't you tell 22 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: us just how impressed you are with the deep state 23 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: and you know who were in it? 24 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 3: Sure? 25 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 4: I mean, I've gotten to know two guys in particular. 26 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 4: I mean, here's how it works. You have a sort 27 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 4: of questionable background, You're somehow attracted to this large bureaucracy, 28 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 4: and apparently if you stick around long enough, you keep 29 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 4: getting promotions, and if anyone's like, well, did you accomplish anything, 30 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 4: you get to say, oh, yes, but it's top secret. 31 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 4: I can't really tell you the specific things I accomplished. 32 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 4: So that's my impression of the deep state. 33 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: Dude, you nailed it. 34 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 4: I can't argue with You're there pretty accurate. 35 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 2: The deep state. It is sort of weird though, because 36 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: on the one hand people would portray us as incompetent 37 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: bureaucradits and on the other were like capable of anything. 38 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: Which is it? 39 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: I'll just say I think a lot of it came 40 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: because people who don't have an experience in government or 41 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: in their security. Things came in and then they just 42 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: wondered when they would say things at a whim, whether 43 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: they made sense or not, didn't just happen. And so 44 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: they said to themselves, well, there must be people there 45 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: that are purposely trying to stall and stop the thing 46 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,279 Speaker 1: that I'm saying should happen. Now, there is a large 47 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: group of professionals in Washington who have laws and regulations 48 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: and policies that have been built up over years, and 49 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: so it isn't possible when someone just says do this 50 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: for it to happen until it's gone through lawyers and 51 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: just make sure it's legal and make sure you know 52 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: everybody has input into whether it makes sense, because different 53 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: organizations and different partner people in the political process have 54 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: different opinions on things. 55 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: Teach state people are people who follow the rules and 56 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: know what the rules are. And the rules were given 57 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: to us by Congress, right, and they're complicate called laws. Laws. Yeah, 58 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: so we follow the laws and then we're damned because 59 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: we can't ignore the laws. 60 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 4: If there's a sort of term like bureaucrat or deep state, 61 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 4: or jew or financial elite or whatever it is, a 62 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 4: lot of these are predicated on the idea that they're 63 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 4: all thinking the exact same thing. They're all aligned and unified, 64 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 4: and they're goals and be there like actively working together. 65 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 4: And if you happen to be a member, like I'm 66 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 4: a member of the Jews, I'm a member of the 67 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 4: media elite. I think I'm now officially a member of 68 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 4: the intelligence community, right because I have a podcasts with 69 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 4: you guys, you realize really quickly, like the two of 70 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 4: you don't agree on a lot of stuff. The idea 71 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 4: of there being this not even the same title, but 72 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: sort of this a similar kind of title we must 73 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 4: all be working together is I mean it just as absurd. 74 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 4: I mean that seems to be the cornerstone of a 75 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 4: lot of conspiracy. 76 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: There's sort of assumption, like, you know, if you're a 77 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: Republican president and you want certain policies that miss mean 78 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: the whole deep Stater is all Democrats right and want 79 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: of democrats in they must be all Whereas essentially there's 80 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans inside all of this deep state. So 81 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: the notion that somehow we would all agree on whatever 82 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: this political thing is. The thing we agree on is 83 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: on the mission of our organization. Our mission of organization was, 84 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, to keep Americans safe, but we didn't agree 85 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: on the policy of how to do that. 86 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 4: From things you've told me, it CIA seems filled with 87 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 4: a lot of different pretty left wing people, right wing people, 88 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 4: pretty centrist people, pretty a political people right. 89 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: And today we're going to be taking a look at 90 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories around what some people term is the deep 91 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: state and how conspiracies around that have become part and 92 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: parcel of our political culture and central to it. 93 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: Our guest is Mark Zaid, a well known lawyer in Washington. 94 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: He's an attorney. He's focused on national security issues. He 95 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: deals with law, whistleblowers, freedom of speech issues, and he 96 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: has some connections to Jerry and I. He went to 97 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: the University of Rochester and Jerry's a Rochester native. So Mark, 98 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: it's really great to have you here. Thanks for being 99 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: with us. 100 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: Oh, it is a pleasure to be with both of 101 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: you guys. 102 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: So let me ask the first question. At least these 103 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: days and some of the things that I see you 104 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: getting involved with. You're a lawyer, You're preparing cases, you 105 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: might even have to go to court, and in being 106 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: a lawyer is about, you know, following the facts where 107 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: they may lead. But so much of what we're seeing 108 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: nowadays is politicians sort of spewing and things that just 109 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: don't have any relation to reality. And how do you 110 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: square those things? How do you defend people when the 111 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: chargers are just sort of crazy? 112 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is always difficult in that sphere, and anyone 113 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,119 Speaker 3: who has spent a good amount of time in DC 114 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: will tell you how things have changed. I've been here 115 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: now for thirty years, and it is a very different 116 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: world in DC in politics than it has ever been before, 117 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 3: which has fed a lot of the conspiracy theories. Now 118 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: some of it is because of ideology and jerry mandering. 119 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 3: There's a lot more divisiveness in the country in the 120 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: political parties because so many seats in politics are safe, 121 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 3: which has led politicians to be more extreme because they 122 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 3: get elected. Now that is really fundamentally important because you 123 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: talk to the sort of old timers who were in office, 124 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 3: and Democrats and Republican members of Congress used to share 125 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: apartments together because it was expensive to have residents here 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: in DC. It was also harder to go back home, 127 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: more expensive to go back home out of the area, 128 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 3: and you didn't have communication capabilities the way we do now. 129 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: So the Internet and the minimization of transportation costs also 130 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: has actually fed into these problems that we have today. 131 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: I want to come back to you being an insider. 132 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the first thing I have to smirk it 133 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 3: what every time I'm called an insider, and in some 134 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: ways i am, But I have never served in the 135 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: federal government at all, and I have always represented individuals 136 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 3: I'll say, against the US government, you know, representing folks 137 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 3: like you guys when you're inside the agency and you've 138 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 3: got a security clearance issue, a personnel dispute, an IG complaint, 139 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: you're being investigated by security, whatever it might be. Conspiracy 140 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: theories actually got me into the world that I work 141 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: in today, But it was particularly the Kennedy assassination that 142 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: brought me and interested me in dealing with the CIA 143 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: and accountability. But because I've represented so many people, one 144 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: hundreds thousands over the thirty years, yeah, I guess I'm 145 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: part of the deep state, as President Trump would call it, well, 146 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: even though that's what I fight against every day, and 147 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: I'd say he's more of the deep state than what 148 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 3: he says. 149 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: The question is often cult or conspiracy. Is this like 150 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: they're in a cult and this is now what they 151 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: believe or is it a conspiracy and like they know 152 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: it's not true. 153 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: It is a fair question, you pose. There's no doubt 154 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 3: that there are some who completely know they're spewing crap 155 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: and what they're saying is absolutely false, and they're just 156 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: doing it for whatever reason to get a rise out 157 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: of someone to fuel fundraising, to gain strength in powers 158 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: and number, whatever it might be. And then there are 159 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 3: the others, which are probably frankly the majority, generalizing, ignorant, naive, 160 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: and fall in line with what they believe. When I 161 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 3: was a freshman in college, I took a course on 162 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: the Holocaust. Their maternal grandfather was a rabbi for the 163 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,119 Speaker 3: US Army liberated Dacau. We had to do a paper 164 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: and the paper was why Germany And thirty five years 165 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 3: ago I had a lot of trouble understanding how this unbelievable, intellectual, cultural, 166 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: westernized country, pinnacle of the pinnacle of Europe became what 167 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: Hitler turned it into. And obviously it's an extreme that 168 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: we thankfully don't have here. But you look at the 169 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: early days of national socialism in the late nineteen twenties, 170 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: in the early thirties, and I think we have I 171 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: do at least a much better sense of how Germany 172 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: became what it became in watching how Maga and the 173 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: ultimate Trump supporters have become what they are. You know, hey, 174 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: Jewish space lacers. You know Marjorie Taylor Green where she 175 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 3: Trump's vice president. Would I have a concern for my 176 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: well being as a Jew, as a lawyer, as an 177 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: opponent to their beliefs. 178 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: Oh, hell yeah, let's take a break. 179 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 180 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: And Rebecca, So, I want. 181 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: To talk a little bit about one of the conspiracies 182 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: that seems to be bandied about around a lot nowadays 183 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: is about the deep state. And so I know you've 184 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: defended whistleblowers for years. Are these people insiders that are 185 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: telling us things that we should be worried about with 186 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: our national security the agencies? 187 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: So my understanding of what deep states somebody had said 188 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 3: that term to me fifteen years ago. You know, you 189 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: got to be careful about the deep state. You know, 190 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 3: that brings to my mind Eisenhower's statement at the end 191 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: of his tenure about the military industrial complex taking over 192 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: the US government, or thinking about the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, 193 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: who are sort of the secret government doing what they 194 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 3: want without any regard to to the rule of law 195 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 3: or the policies and procedures that were in play at 196 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: the time. And somehow that term deep state has been 197 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 3: twisted by former President Trump and his supporters to mean 198 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: essentially anyone who challenges their authority, even lawfully. You know, 199 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: the whole notion of representing whistleblowers and the existence of them. 200 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: It is still looked at as a somewhat bad word 201 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: and it is not anything I would ever wish upon 202 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 3: someone to be a whistleblower. It is not a fun thing. 203 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: You do not generally gain any rewards from it. There 204 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 3: are certain types of cases where you can make a 205 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: lot of money as being a whistleblower, but those are 206 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: called keytam cases, and those are generally basically revealing fraud 207 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: upon the US government by a contractor. That entity is 208 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: fined and the whistleblower gets a percentage of that fine, 209 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 3: which could be tens of millions of dollars. But it's 210 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 3: been twisted now of course, the fake whistleblower. And again 211 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: because I don't want to just beat up on President Trump, 212 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: although there's so much to beat up on. It's both sides. 213 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: The term deep state for me, I struggle with it 214 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: strikes me as a meaningless, chivalous that lends itself to 215 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories. The deep state is made up of like 216 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of people who will mostly live in 217 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: Northern Virginia, who are your neighbors who have struggled with 218 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 2: mortgages and with their kids and have rules and regulations, 219 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: and they're not some coherent group that like secretly rules things. 220 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: And so when that term is used, it's like the Illuminati. 221 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: It means everything and nothing. And let me ask you 222 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: to come in on one just instance in how this 223 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: would actually could work in the real world, which I 224 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: don't think it does. So President Trump a while ago 225 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: retweeted that bin Laden was still alive and that President 226 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: Obama had murdered her assas needed all the people who 227 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: would supposedly claim to have killed him on Sealed Team six. 228 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: In the world that we live in, there would have 229 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: to be a deep state that would I mean, think 230 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: about this. There's the widows who would all have to 231 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: be quiet. The people who carried this out would all 232 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: have to be like incredibly loyal after all these years 233 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: still to Obama, and where's Osama bin Lad and if 234 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 2: he still kept living? And yet an idea like this 235 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: can be put out and explained with two words deep state. 236 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: How would you define deep state? And how do you 237 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: see it defined? 238 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, when I first came to d C, I 239 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: spent then and I still do now a lot of 240 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 3: time on the Kennedy assassination. I was a sort of 241 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: up and coming youngster as a twenty five year old 242 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: inheriting the mantle from the first generation who were alive 243 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 3: when Kennedy was killed, and I realized as a result 244 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: of all that there is no way that so many 245 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: of the conspiracy theories that people believe could be true, 246 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: because there's no way the CIA and some of the 247 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 3: other agencies could have pulled it off. And if they 248 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 3: could have pulled it off, there's no way in hell 249 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 3: they could have kept it secret for so many years. 250 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: The system just doesn't work that way. Are there really 251 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: really cool secrets that are still secret? Yeah? You know, 252 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: the three of us know that is absolutely true. We 253 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 3: may know the same cool ones, but for the most part, 254 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 3: it's very seldom that something so momentous has so few 255 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: people that every one of them could keep something secret. 256 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: One of my favorite conspiracy theories has always been the 257 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 3: Lockness Monster, so much so that when I lived in 258 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: England in the late eighties working for the British government, 259 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: I went up to Lockness in Inverness, Scotland and spent 260 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: hours walking around the lock just looking for NeSSI you know, 261 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: turned out to be if you believe that, you know 262 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: decades later where these guys came forward and said that 263 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: they concocted the whole thing. They made this like paper 264 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 3: mache dinosaur and took photos of it. And then there 265 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 3: was another guy. He had a hippopotamus leg, real hippopoonymous 266 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: leg umbrella stand that he would take and walk around 267 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: the lock and put footprint in the sand that people 268 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 3: would see. Those were theories or conspiracies that were created 269 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: by a small number of people, one to three people, 270 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: and usually within the same family, so that they could 271 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: keep those secrets until someone's on their deathbed and set 272 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: finally says what happened the stuff that we're talking about 273 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 3: with the deep state, as you described this vast military 274 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 3: industrial complex where everybody's involved. It's not the way our 275 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 3: government works. Our government is so bureaucratic. The government is 276 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: like an ocean liner or a freight train. It takes 277 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 3: a mile to stop. People think the federal government is 278 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: like this one monolithic entity, whereas you could have a 279 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: war between one agency versus the other agency. They're not 280 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 3: working together at all. I was them with one case, 281 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: a very senior Department of Defense official within the IC agencies, 282 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: all sorts of wrongdoing, all sorts of personality problems, that 283 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: people didn't like this person, and there was an IG 284 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: report that even found a whole bunch of stuff. So 285 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: what was done. The person's not fired, they were just 286 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: moved to another position. 287 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: We'd call that passing the trash. 288 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: It's really hard to fire someone. 289 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: I have a lot of clients who might disagree with 290 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: that because they got fired. 291 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, rule you know, we could talk about someone. 292 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: I've tried to get some of those people fired. 293 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: Hey, sometimes I got to tell you. Sometimes I agree 294 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: that that my clients should be I will do my 295 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: best not to have them fired. But I'm behind the 296 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: scenes going, oh man, I can't I get even hired 297 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: in the first place. 298 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: I just went you up in and ask for some 299 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: free legal advice. So what is a conspiracy legally? If 300 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: what you've outlined, If someone knows something is false, a 301 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: group of people know it's false, and yet they put 302 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: it out there to trick other people to make money, 303 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: is that a conspiracy legally? 304 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: So, a conspiracy is generally two or more people who 305 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: conspire to engage in an overt conduct. Give an example, 306 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: and this is what's frustrating too, the recent Georgia indictment 307 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: which has rico charges. You know, it was written to 308 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: go after organized crime predominantly, and the notion is you 309 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 3: can have individuals engaged in lawful conduct, but it's part 310 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 3: of an unlawful conspiracy. And there are a lot of 311 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: the paragraphs set forth in this complaint of which the 312 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: conduct is completely lawful, protected by First Amendment, but it 313 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: was in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. And you can 314 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: see you just look at Twitter or you look at 315 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: any right wing media will they'll seize upon the lawful 316 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: conduct in the one paragraph to say, oh, now the 317 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: Democrats are criminalizing the First Amendment. And no it's not. 318 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 3: This is an established legal precedent to take lawful conduct, 319 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: but to carve it into in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. 320 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: So if you think of money laundering, I just finished 321 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: watching Breaking Bad. But you know the notion of you 322 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: earn all this money by cooking meth that's illegal. You 323 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 3: take the unlawful money, and you lawfully purchase a car 324 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: wash that's lawful. Running the car wash completely lawful. When 325 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 3: the government finds out that you earned that money from 326 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: a criminal enterprise. They can seize the lawful car wash 327 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: because the lawful transaction relates to the unlawful conspiracy. 328 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: Thanks Mark, it's always great talking to a fellow upstate 329 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: New Yorker and wishing you good things in future endeavors. 330 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: Now we'd like to welcome back Adam Davidson. 331 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 4: Can't keep me away. But first we'll take a quick 332 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 4: break and then I'm going to have a bunch of questions. 333 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Mission implausible. So John and Jerry, we 334 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 4: just learned all about the deep state. I mean, you 335 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 4: are exactly the deep state, and. 336 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: It has a great dental plan. I want to get 337 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: that out there. 338 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 4: So one thing that I find so interesting about this 339 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 4: particular conspiracy theory is that there is a bureaucracy. There 340 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 4: are people who work in government. I mean, it's a 341 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 4: kind of conspiracy that's like taking a thing that exists 342 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 4: and giving it more malign intent and coordination than it 343 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 4: really has. But it's not inventing a thing that doesn't exist. 344 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: What's interesting is it's actually a very clever conspiracy. It's 345 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: weaponizing sort of concerns that what people have. So if 346 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: you're a leader like former President Trump was for example, 347 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: and you can't just dictate and get your ways. You 348 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: can call it a deep state, but what what I 349 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: would call is sort of an existing professional bureaucracy of 350 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: public servants who are in phibited by laws, regulations, norms, 351 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: professional standards, making sure that everything is written down, everything 352 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: is put through processes to get done. You can't just 353 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: say invade Syria and expect that the next day are 354 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: people going to invade serious So I can imagine that 355 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: if you came in from the outside you don't understand 356 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: how government works, you say, well, they're not doing exactly 357 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: what I said. They think different than me, Their political 358 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: enemies are trying to stop what I'm trying to accomplish. 359 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: Whereas those of us who worked in that space, we 360 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: understand that, No, there's a lot of things. Over time, 361 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: civil service rules, regulations have been put in place to 362 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: make sure that when the government takes action, it's done openly. 363 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: It's done with input from the necessary bureaucracies and other agencies, 364 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: but it's not done for nefarious or political reasons, which 365 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: is what the term deep state suggests. The US government 366 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: is huge, These agencies are complex and complicated. It's so 367 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: complex you can't get your head around it. It's easier 368 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: just to say, oh, they're evil, or they're working against 369 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: my president or what have you. 370 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 2: And it's dehumanizing as well. It's sort of along the 371 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 2: lines of referring to the honorable opposition as radical Marxist 372 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: Democrats or fascist Republicans or Rhinos, when these are just 373 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: people that view things differently and do things differently. 374 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 4: I will say the friends of mine who've been sort 375 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 4: of permanent civil servants, actually I find it almost annoying 376 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 4: when they work for an administration that I know politically 377 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 4: they're not aligned with how obsessively nonpartisan they are. I 378 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 4: can think of one administration fairly recently. 379 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: It's not the current one, but it was. 380 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 4: Recent where I actually felt like we needed a little 381 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 4: more deep state, We needed more of that civil servant 382 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 4: to say this isn't okay. 383 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: Right. We take an oath on the Constitution, not to 384 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 2: a particular president or political party, and it's not like 385 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: we want to have a dictator, like even for a day. 386 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 4: What is it like when you're we don't even have 387 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: to get into what your politics are, but like, have 388 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 4: you had to support or missions that you weren't personally 389 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: totally sold. 390 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: On, you know, Iraq War weapons of man's destruction. I 391 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: have to admit that I changed my mind on that. 392 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 2: I believed at the time, deeply, truly that we had 393 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: the evidence on there. 394 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: Also with the CIA, it's a weird institution, and we 395 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: take pride in sometimes actually telling administrations and things they 396 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: don't want to hear. And it's our job to come 397 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: in and say, well, sir, that's just actually not how 398 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: it's playing out here. Your plan is not likely to 399 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: work for ab and C reasons. And it allows young 400 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: officers to go into very senior places in the government 401 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: and tell people that we think that they're wrong or 402 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: that we have information that goes against what they would 403 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: like it to be. 404 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: Serving an administration, Republican or Democrat is more than just 405 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: the executive bridge more than just the president. Right, we 406 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: have congressional overlords. They control our budget, and when we 407 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 2: deal with them off the front pages of the newspaper, 408 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: when we sit down and we brief congressmen and senators 409 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: in our states, or we go up to the hill 410 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: and we testify in confidential circumstances, most of them are 411 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: pretty reasonable folks, and they get along better than you 412 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: might expect Republicans and Democrats certainly on things like national security. 413 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 4: And as you're doing analysis, and this is true for 414 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 4: journalism or deep state members like yourself. If you're analyzing 415 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 4: I don't know the fighting strength of Ukraine or something 416 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: like that, you might have your preferences or whatever, but 417 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 4: if you're really dialed into like the latest talking points 418 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 4: on whatever cable news channel, it messes you up. You 419 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 4: get your analysis is wrong. 420 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 2: So there's the term deep state. And if you think 421 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: about it, what's a shallow state? You know? And we've 422 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: served in places with shallow states that don't have deep roots, 423 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 2: where there isn't a rule of law, and where you 424 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: know a leader just by whim can change things. And 425 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: we don't want to live in those places. I mean, 426 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: who wants to live in Somalia or Afghanistan where you 427 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: know the next dictator can commit and change everything, and 428 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 2: where civil servants will say anything and do anything, take 429 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: any bribe to just make it to the next paycheck. 430 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: You know, the deep state, where things are deeply anchored 431 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 2: in law and order and culture. 432 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: That's what we want and expertise, right, So the notions 433 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: of a new leader comes in everybody leaves, the intelligence officers, 434 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: the diplomats, the military people, everybody leaves because the leader 435 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: has his own people, and that goes back and forth 436 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: and back and forth. What we've created in this country 437 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: over hundreds of years is, you know, a civil service, 438 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: a public service that has expertise that's meant to be 439 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: there to help inform politicians when they do come in. 440 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: And so we've decided that the world is complex and 441 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: we need people who are experts and work on issues 442 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: for decades rather than just leaving every couple of years. 443 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: I remember in Okay it was it was a rock. 444 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: I can say this but this because it's over. But 445 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: one of the heads of their law enforcement agencies was 446 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: a failed doctor who was only allowed to work on 447 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: dead people. He was only allowed to do autopsies, and 448 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: he was related to the right person. And so here's 449 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: a guy who failed medical school, who has no background 450 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: in law enforcement is now running basically one of their 451 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 2: versions of the FBI. Do you really want this guy 452 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: running the FBI who doesn't know anything and it is 453 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: probably only going to be there for two years. You know, 454 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 2: that's a shallow state, and that's you know, doesn't serve 455 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: the Iraqi people, well doesn't serve us. 456 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: Well, now, Betty was good at stealing money for his relative, 457 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: you bet. 458 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: You he was. He is two years at the troth 459 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: and he was going to take it right. 460 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 4: And I'm not going to sit here and have the 461 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 4: Iraqi government insulted in this way. 462 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: So yeah, let's coach state. 463 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: You know. 464 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 4: Well, there's a term in political economy that comes out 465 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 4: of analysis of Middle Eastern governments, and they use the 466 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 4: language of strong states and weak states, and the way 467 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 4: it's defined as a it's a little counterintuitive that a 468 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 4: weak state like Iraq is a state where they have 469 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 4: to continually reen force their power. So, you know, Saddam 470 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 4: or Mubarik or whomever sort of knows they're always an 471 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 4: uprising away from being destroyed, and so they need to 472 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 4: constantly remind people we're big, we're strong. We're big, we're strong. 473 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 4: We're big, we're strong. And that leads to a kind 474 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 4: of violent repression of the people. It leads to the corruption, 475 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 4: et cetera. Because if the mentality is, look, my third 476 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 4: cousin is prime minister now or president now, but that's 477 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 4: not going to last forever. I better get everything I can, 478 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 4: you know, it's like the old pre model in Mexico, 479 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 4: where you have a six year term to make all 480 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 4: the money you're going to make for your life, so 481 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 4: you better use it wisely. Whereas a strong state is 482 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: not a strong handed state. 483 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: It's a state. 484 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 4: Where the state itself is a functioning entity that doesn't 485 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 4: need to be continually reinforced. Resiliency, Yeah, resiliency is built in, 486 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 4: and we may be weirdly trying to destroy that in 487 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: the US, or some people are. 488 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 2: But let's use critical thinking on the demographics of the 489 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: deep state. If you're if you are a member of 490 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: the civil service, A you're never going to be rich, right, 491 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you're not going to be poor, but you're 492 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: not making lots of money. You're making just enough so 493 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: that you're not likely going to be tempted by bribes. 494 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: Not that it doesn't happen, but you're making enough so 495 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: that you know you're not going to look for like 496 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 2: three hundred bucks to change your opinion on something like 497 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: happens in Mexico and some of these other places where 498 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: they don't pay their civil servants enough. These are people 499 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: who have have agreed to stay in positions for decades 500 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: to do the best job they can for a basic 501 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: amount of pay. They basically carry out the dictates of 502 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: the people in Congress who rail against them. You make 503 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 2: a law, you say this is the way it is. 504 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: You tell people this is how you're going to operate, 505 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: and then you criticize them for doing so. 506 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: Remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals 507 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars, They told 508 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 509 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: a year. 510 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: He's like, what, why would he do that? 511 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: Well, then it says these are oh, they're losers. They're 512 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: losers because they could be making more money some other way. 513 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 4: I was in China once when they happen to release 514 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 4: like the richest fifty richest people in China list a 515 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 4: bunch of business people, and someone I was with was like, 516 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 4: the fifty richest people in China are a bunch of 517 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 4: generals whose names you're never gonna hear. 518 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: The same in Russia, Yeah, it's the rich guys or 519 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: the guys of the intelligence community at the generals. 520 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they take pictures of these sort of bureau meetings 521 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: and then you look at their watches and they're wearing 522 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: like three hundred thousand dollars watches and you know, twenty 523 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: thousand dollars suits, and these guys supposedly you're making you know, 524 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars a year. 525 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 4: All right, guys, well, thanks so much for trying to 526 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 4: persuade people you're not part of a vast deep state. 527 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 4: I don't think you pulled it off, but it was 528 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 4: interesting to watch the attempt. 529 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 2: Adam, will we be sending you an application to join 530 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: the Deeps? 531 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 3: I'd love to. 532 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 4: I've I've been waiting to be asked. 533 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry Osha, John Cipher, 534 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 5: and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 535 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 5: Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures 536 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 5: for iHeartMedia