1
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

2
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,600
Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. This week we have a holiday,

3
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,320
Speaker 1: so for today we are bringing you a Vault episode.

4
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,160
Speaker 1: This one originally aired May twenty fifth, twenty twenty three.

5
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 1: It's the episode that Rob and I did about fountains,

6
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: fountains as an architectural feature, and more broadly, about the

7
00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:35,920
Speaker 1: idea of urban blue space. So we hope you enjoy.

8
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

9
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 3: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

10
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 3: name is Robert.

11
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,600
Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

12
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,240
Speaker 3: So the title for this episode comes from a poem

13
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 3: by English poet Elizabeth Jennings With nineteen twenty six through

14
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 3: two thousand and one. This poem contains the lines observe

15
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 3: it there the fountain, too fast for shadows, too wild

16
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,120
Speaker 3: for the lights which illuminate it, to hold even a

17
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,240
Speaker 3: moment an ounce of water back. The poem in full

18
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 3: details how we might observe a fountain in an urban

19
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 3: center and makes a comparison to more ancient traditions. Joe,

20
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,839
Speaker 3: were you familiar with this poem or this poet prior

21
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 3: to this episode. She was a new one for me.

22
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure the name is familiar, but I need

23
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,160
Speaker 1: to look up more of her stuff to see if

24
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:33,640
Speaker 1: there's anything I recognize.

25
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,200
Speaker 3: Well. This poem fountain, Like I say, it also connects

26
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 3: back to some of these more ancient traditions that are

27
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,600
Speaker 3: reflected in our tradition of spending times with fountains and

28
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 3: other water features. Just to read another bit from it,

29
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,920
Speaker 3: quote see in that stress and image of utter calm,

30
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 3: a stillness. There it is how we must have felt

31
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 3: once at the edge of some perpetual stream, fearful of touching,

32
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 3: bringing no thirst at all, panicked by no perception of ourselves,

33
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 3: but drawing the water down to the deepest wonder well.

34
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,960
Speaker 1: That phrasing gives a much profounder spin to the kind

35
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,639
Speaker 1: of awe that I recall feeling when looking at fountains

36
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,320
Speaker 1: as a child. Particularly, what I remember is a fountain

37
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 1: in the mall in my hometown when I was a

38
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: kid that had a kind of kind of a tile

39
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,080
Speaker 1: mosaic bottom that was always covered in pennies. I guess

40
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: the idea was that people would throw pennies into the

41
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 1: fountain and make a wish at least that's what I

42
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 1: was always told you did, and I really liked to

43
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,080
Speaker 1: do this, and I think firmly believed in the magic

44
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,920
Speaker 1: of the wish granting powers of the fountain.

45
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 3: I didn't even think about fountains and water features and malls.

46
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,520
Speaker 3: But oh man, shopping malls had some great ones, as

47
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,079
Speaker 3: far as I remember, and of course smaller at the time,

48
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 3: so they seemed more gigantic, you know, some sort of

49
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,239
Speaker 3: a fountain there in the atrium of the mall, beautifull

50
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 3: to behold.

51
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: I do remember thinking when I saw all of the

52
00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 1: pennies on the bottom. I also thought, at some point

53
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 1: they they must clean all those up, because it's not

54
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,080
Speaker 1: like overflowing with pennies. They've got to go in and

55
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: get them.

56
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,320
Speaker 3: And then my.

57
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: Thought as a child was who gets to keep all

58
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 1: that money? That's so much money when you collect all

59
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 1: of them, you know, that's got to be tens of dollars.

60
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,080
Speaker 3: I mean, this is why that one scene in the

61
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 3: Goonies I think was so impactful, the extrapolation of our

62
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 3: dreams of harvesting the coins of a fountain.

63
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,680
Speaker 1: You know, oh, is that is that in the Goonies.

64
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 1: I don't remember that they had the same thought I did.

65
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 3: Well, No, they in the goonies, if memory serves, it's

66
00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 3: been a long time since I've seen it. There's that

67
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 3: there's like these caverns beneath the wishing well and that's

68
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,520
Speaker 3: where all the coins are, and one of the kids

69
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 3: goes to steal a bunch of them, and they're like, no, no,

70
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 3: those are peaceful people's wishes. You're not supposed to take them,

71
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 3: and the children, you know, abstain, and ultimately they have

72
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 3: pirates gold on the radar.

73
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 1: So this well, I didn't make the connection. I did

74
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 1: believe in the wish granting powers, and I did greedily

75
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: lust after all of the penny money, but I didn't

76
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 1: think that would be stealing people's wishes. It's already granted

77
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,160
Speaker 1: right once the pennies there. Now it's just free money.

78
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know how that. It depends on superstitious

79
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 3: share I guess how it works. But at any rate,

80
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 3: I yeah, I always am curious to see if a

81
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 3: fountain has coins, and even though I don't nowadays, I'm

82
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 3: not thinking about harvesting them. I'm still just one of

83
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 3: the things I kind of like am checking off the

84
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,480
Speaker 3: mental checklist when I check out a fountain, are there

85
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 3: coins in it? What's the filtration system look like? You know,

86
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 3: where's the water coming out of? Like, if there's a

87
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,360
Speaker 3: fountain somewhere, I need to get closer to it so

88
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,520
Speaker 3: I can take it all in. Beyond that, I don't

89
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,479
Speaker 3: think I'd ever really thought about, you know, any universal

90
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,359
Speaker 3: truths about the calming nature of fountains. I've always just

91
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,839
Speaker 3: kind of in the back of my mind thought, well,

92
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 3: they're nice. Sometimes they have interesting statues incorporated into their design.

93
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 3: They can be cooling on a hot day, that sort

94
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 3: of thing, and they're often like at the center of everything,

95
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,239
Speaker 3: you know. I think of like the fountain in Washington Square,

96
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 3: you know, I think about the indeed, the fountains in

97
00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 3: the atrium at a mall, at a shopping mall, which

98
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,840
Speaker 3: was like a center of community in some respects.

99
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,640
Speaker 1: Well, and yet another way that the fountain was sacred

100
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: to my child's brain. But taking some of the profound

101
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,919
Speaker 1: varnish off of it, I do associate the idea of

102
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,919
Speaker 1: a fountain with the smell of the mall food court,

103
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 1: you know. It's that's where the saborrow mingles with the

104
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 1: with the Kariaki place Yeah, the mall.

105
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 3: Food court of our childhoods. This is a place where

106
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,160
Speaker 3: you also had freedom, like suddenly you could often often

107
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 3: the case, you could choose what you were going to eat,

108
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 3: and it made you feel powerful. But coming back to

109
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,320
Speaker 3: water features and fountains specifically, of course, we have to

110
00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 3: think larger than that. We have to think of two

111
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 3: about just like running water, bodies of water in general.

112
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 3: And you know, personally, and I think this applies somewhat universally.

113
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,599
Speaker 3: I've always found waters to be calming to be around.

114
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,600
Speaker 3: They're often great places to do some thinking or to

115
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,640
Speaker 3: do less thinking in a good way, you know, to

116
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 3: sort of unshackle from your normal thought process. And I

117
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 3: think I've mentioned before on the show that there's a

118
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 3: very useful stress reduction exercise that makes use of this connection.

119
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 3: It's called leaves on a stream. It's a cognitive diffusion

120
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 3: technique that allows you to distance yourself from the thoughts

121
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 3: that you're having. So the way it goes, and you

122
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,880
Speaker 3: can look this up online. There are plenty of online

123
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 3: resources that spell it out in more detail. But you

124
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,039
Speaker 3: imagine yourself seated beside a running stream. You imagine taking

125
00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 3: a given thought, essentially taking it out of yourself, placing

126
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 3: it upon a floating leaf and allowing the stream to

127
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 3: carry that leaf and the thought away from you. And

128
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,599
Speaker 3: you know, everyone's mile wage may vary, but I find

129
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 3: it very constructive. But I was thinking about it again here,

130
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,679
Speaker 3: thinking about fountains, thinking about natural bodies of water, and

131
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 3: they're calming powers.

132
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 1: It does seem like an especially nice image for concretizing

133
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: your emotions and your thoughts because it's passive, like the

134
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 1: water does the carrying away for you, So it doesn't

135
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 1: even involve you having to imagine, like forcing or shoving

136
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 1: the idea away. It is just carried away by nature.

137
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Now we've talked a bit on the show

138
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,480
Speaker 3: previously about the history and importance of public water works.

139
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 3: We're not going to reach at all of that here,

140
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 3: but I wanted to at least touch on some of

141
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 3: it in this case via a twenty fifteen article titled

142
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 3: Short Global History of Fountains by Juty at All, published

143
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 3: in the journal Water. That's pointed out that the word

144
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 3: fountain stems from the Latin fawns, which can refer to

145
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 3: both artificial and natural water features. Not like the fawns

146
00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,800
Speaker 3: on happy Days, but fots. I've also read that the

147
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:08,000
Speaker 3: source is fontana, which informs the medieval fount or source,

148
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 3: and so fountain becomes a symbol of a providing source

149
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 3: as well. Like this idea of a fountain as being

150
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 3: this thing from which something else beneficial arises becomes pretty

151
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 3: crucial to a lot of a lot of our language. Now.

152
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 3: The construction of fountains properly dates back to ancient times,

153
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 3: and the authors of this paper point out that regional

154
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,880
Speaker 3: water availability played a role in what form fountains took

155
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 3: and how they were fed. For instance, they mentioned that

156
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,560
Speaker 3: for the ancient Egyptians bringing water out for the people

157
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 3: or for personal use, it was a matter of pulling

158
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,680
Speaker 3: water from the Mighty Nile. Meanwhile, the Minoans and the

159
00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 3: Greeks brought water down from the mountains via aqueducts. So

160
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,680
Speaker 3: this is something to keep in mind. There's the sort of,

161
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 3: especially when you go back into the origins of fountains,

162
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 3: a lot more practical purposes in mind for having that

163
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 3: water there, And then how do you get the water there?

164
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 3: You're not just piping it in from the local modern

165
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 3: water system, you know, there are other means that have

166
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 3: to be in place. One of the primary purposes for

167
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 3: ancient fountains was of course to bring water to the

168
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 3: people for drinking, as well as for other uses such

169
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 3: as bathing. We've talked about that on the show before.

170
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 3: Another big one that I hadn't thought as much about.

171
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,720
Speaker 3: And I guess part of this is because we haven't

172
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 3: We've touched on firefighting, but we haven't done a lot

173
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,880
Speaker 3: on firefighting. But this was another reason to have a

174
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,479
Speaker 3: source of water available in a center of the population.

175
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 1: I think we actually did a pretty extensive look at

176
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 1: firefighting in our Invention episode on the fire extinguisher.

177
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we got into like fire extinguisher grenades and

178
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 3: so forth.

179
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, But going into ancient history, how the fire fighting

180
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 1: in ancient Rome and how it had a very different

181
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 1: character because if I remember correctly, the early version in

182
00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 1: maybe like the first century BCE or so, there was

183
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: like a rich guy who instituted fire brigades who would

184
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: come to your house if it was on fire, not

185
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,319
Speaker 1: to like as a public service, put it out for you,

186
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,280
Speaker 1: but to say, hey, I will buy your house for

187
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 1: the following price, take it or leave it. And if

188
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, if you agreed to let this guy buy

189
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,559
Speaker 1: your house, then his dudes would put out the fire.

190
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a scene in one of Stevens

191
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 3: Sailor's Gordiana's books that take place in ancient Rome where

192
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 3: this exact situation takes place with like the building burning

193
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 3: down and this guy shows up and he's like, well,

194
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,439
Speaker 3: you know, it looks like your property is really plummeting

195
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 3: in value. Now would be a great time to sell

196
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,600
Speaker 3: to me, as opposed to five minutes from now.

197
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,880
Speaker 1: Wicked in an especially hilarious way. But of course, you know,

198
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,480
Speaker 1: later on the idea of firefighting as a public service

199
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: that benefits everyone does develop, and yeah, of course there

200
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,040
Speaker 1: are a lot of different ways to fight fires, and

201
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 1: not all of them involve water. Of course, some involve

202
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: like you know, pulling down structures to create barriers to

203
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 1: fire spreading and things like that. But yeah, water of

204
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 1: course is quite often one of the most important tools

205
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:16,840
Speaker 1: in fighting fires.

206
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 3: Now. One of the things about bringing water into a city,

207
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,240
Speaker 3: one of the problems here are potential potential problems, is well,

208
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,280
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to deal with drainage, removal, fouled water,

209
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 3: and various public health challenges that can emerge from public

210
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 3: water works and that can get into things like you know,

211
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 3: I have to worry about water borne ill illnesses, potentially mosquitoes,

212
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 3: things of that nature. So systems to bring water into

213
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 3: a city these were extremely important for human civilizations, and

214
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 3: we see them in all the major civilizations of the

215
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,640
Speaker 3: ancient world as well as the various ancient civilizations of

216
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 3: the New World. The earliest carved water based and apparently

217
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,679
Speaker 3: dates back to three thousand BC in the Mesopotamian site

218
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 3: of Tello, and a stone fountain figure in another Mesopotamian site,

219
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,960
Speaker 3: Mari dates back to two thousand BCE. This would basically

220
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,440
Speaker 3: be in line with the common fountain trope that we've

221
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,120
Speaker 3: seen again and again of a goddess holding a base

222
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 3: of some sort that releases piped in water, just sort

223
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,080
Speaker 3: of an irresistible image. And I guess part of this

224
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 3: comes down to, like what a fountain does that like

225
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 3: recasts the idea of water being gifted to people.

226
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,439
Speaker 1: As if from a morton Joe, Yeah.

227
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. The Romans were, of course masters of hydraulics, which

228
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 3: they adopted from the Etruscan civilization, and the Roman tradition

229
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 3: greatly influenced the medieval fountain tradition to follow Now. One

230
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,120
Speaker 3: thing in this paper that I thought was really interesting.

231
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,199
Speaker 3: They point out that in China, wells and streams were

232
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 3: along the primary source of water, so wells tend to

233
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,959
Speaker 3: play the role we see public fountains play in other

234
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,439
Speaker 3: parts of the world. In some of these Mesopotamian accounts,

235
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 3: these public wells were crucial as well to city planning.

236
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 3: These would be the things that you plan the structure

237
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 3: of the city around. They also note that quote spring

238
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 3: and structures have also assumed characteristics of fountains in China,

239
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 3: so what we might think of as proper fountains were

240
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,840
Speaker 3: also introduced and built in urban and palace settings later

241
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 3: over the course of centuries. But sometimes you might have

242
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 3: something just constructed where a spring emerges or where a

243
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 3: spring has come to, and this will sort of take

244
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 3: on the building and appearance of a western fountain. Now.

245
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 3: The authors even include discussion of modern and industrial age

246
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 3: water kiosks in the paper, which serve the purpose of

247
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 3: distributing clean water to the people, though without most of

248
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 3: the more esthetically pleasing ass that you associate with a

249
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,959
Speaker 3: public fountain. Nowadays, you can look up images of various

250
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,680
Speaker 3: water kiosks that I believe They're especially common in subs

251
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 3: of how in Africa a place where people can go

252
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 3: and get water, and it often takes on a more

253
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,480
Speaker 3: I guess, sort of commercial appearance. I mean it looks

254
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 3: like a little a little shop in many cases. Sometimes

255
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 3: they even you see something that looks more like a

256
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 3: vending machine. And you can also make comparisons like water

257
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 3: kiosk and say public ice dispensary, you know those, you

258
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,200
Speaker 3: see these especially, we see these a lot in the

259
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 3: United States. I know, when you go into rural areas

260
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 3: and there's like the standalone machine that you can pull

261
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 3: up to, you pay the machine and you get some ice.

262
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 3: You know you are buying water, albeit in a frozen form,

263
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 3: from that machine. Right now, that Beings said, I guess

264
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 3: water kiosks could still be considered like a social center,

265
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 3: a place where people are going for water. And while

266
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 3: most of the examp I was looking at seem largely

267
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 3: transactional and functional, I suppose it doesn't have to be

268
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 3: the case. Though. When I looked around for like more

269
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 3: pleasing designs and water kiosks, the only thing that was

270
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 3: coming up for me were various design competitions that were

271
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 3: more situated in say London and were essentially coming up

272
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 3: with water fountain designs that you know, looked crazy things

273
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 3: that weren't necessarily I think, actually brought to life in

274
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 3: urban settings. But I don't know. Maybe there have been

275
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 3: efforts to sort of evolve water kiosk sites throughout the

276
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 3: rest of the world as well. I'm not sure.

277
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 1: Well, this idea sort of highlights the two different faces

278
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,640
Speaker 1: of the civic water dispensing area. So you can have

279
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 1: on one hand, something that is functional that is there.

280
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: It's a place for people to get water that they

281
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,320
Speaker 1: need for you know, everything in life basically that you

282
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 1: need in order to drink, to cook, to clean and

283
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,640
Speaker 1: so forth. And then the other idea is water based

284
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: infrastructure that is there to be enjoyed, maybe the same

285
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 1: way that a park would be there to be enjoyed.

286
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 3: I think in the popular imagination, something that brings all

287
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 3: these together is of course, the chocolate factory of Willy Wonka,

288
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 3: where we see the chocolate mixed by waterfall. It is

289
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 3: a pleasing water fall to behold. You're not supposed to

290
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 3: swim in it, of course, but still, you know, some

291
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 3: uses of the chocolate are available via fountain. And then

292
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 3: of course we do have chocolate chocolate fountains at events

293
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 3: and all. So it is weird how we get into

294
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 3: this use of fountains, both in the imagination and in reality,

295
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 3: for liquids that are not drinking water.

296
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 1: Why do the culinary fountains always go in the sweet direction.

297
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: I want to see more savory ones, you know. So

298
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 1: it's the nacho cheese fountain, the gravy fountain. I don't

299
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: know what. Maybe cheese fondue fountain. I guess that's pretty

300
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 1: similar to nacho cheese.

301
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 3: Well that that surely exists, right, some sort of a

302
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 3: cheese fountain, I suppose, I would guess. Anyway, Coming back

303
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 3: to this Water Journal paper, the authors here, they stressed

304
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 3: that fountains also often stood as symbols of power and wealth.

305
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 3: Somebody builds them, someone provides them for the people. But

306
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,119
Speaker 3: there's still this calming element to the urban fountain, offering

307
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 3: sites and sounds conducive to relaxation that are frequently cited

308
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 3: in histories and literature. As many of the practical reasons

309
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 3: for public fountains declined in modern times, the esthetic elements

310
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,879
Speaker 3: remained in play, including the soothing sites and sounds of

311
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,119
Speaker 3: the running water. Another interesting point. This is something I

312
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 3: read in Fountains as Reservoirs of myth and memory from

313
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,639
Speaker 3: Myths on the Map the Storied Landscapes of Ancient Greece

314
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 3: from twenty seventeen by Betsy A. Robinson, or this section

315
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 3: about fountains is by Robinson, and in this they point

316
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 3: out that public fountains, specifically those in Greek traditions, were

317
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 3: also a means of quote, connecting past and present and

318
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 3: establishing authority by the manipulation of architectural form and the

319
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,639
Speaker 3: selective retelling of stories. So I found that fascinating to

320
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 3: think about and be reminded of, because the public fountain

321
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,159
Speaker 3: here is both a means of bringing water to the

322
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 3: people but also conceptualizing the deliverer of that water by

323
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 3: means of myth and legends reflected in the carvings, the

324
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 3: statues and so forth then make up a given fountain.

325
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 3: For instance, who is the goddess that is pouring forth

326
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 3: the water, and what is that goddess's relationship to the

327
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 3: people in power at the moment, etc.

328
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,920
Speaker 1: Yes, flowing water almost kind of naturally tells the story,

329
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: or it easily can be narrativized in some way by

330
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 1: filling in the infrastructure around it with images and representations.

331
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Can you imagine if our primary sources of water

332
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 3: today are faucets, What if by law they were required

333
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 3: to resemble entities or beings or specific people in power

334
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 3: as they're bringing forth your precious drinking or dishwashing water.

335
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,159
Speaker 1: Yes, the faucet is like your local water commissioner's face

336
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 1: and the water is coming out of their mouth or

337
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: something like vomiting the water to you.

338
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyway, the main idea we're exploring this episode, though,

339
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 3: is the idea that there is something soothing, calming, and

340
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,239
Speaker 3: mentally restoring about public fountains, something that may, you know,

341
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 3: subjectively seem to be the case with many of us,

342
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 3: but you know, is there something more objective there as well.

343
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 3: There's actually been a fair amount of, certainly recent scholarship

344
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: on the topic that we're going to touch on in

345
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 3: this We we're going to get into this idea of

346
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 3: blue spaces.

347
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 1: So in the.

348
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 3: World of urban land use planning, there's green space obviously,

349
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,679
Speaker 3: you know, we think of gardens, trees, whole parks, et cetera.

350
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 3: And then there's a subset of green space known as

351
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 3: blue space, and the blue of course, refers to water,

352
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, as water is often blue on the map,

353
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 3: if not in actual visual appearance, and it entails all

354
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 3: manner of naturally occurring and artificial water features, including fountains. Now,

355
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 3: once again it's important to stress that proximity to natural

356
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 3: and or artificial blue spaces has always come with certain

357
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 3: additional risks and potential dangers. We talked about those already,

358
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 3: but there's also this compelling idea that blue spaces are

359
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: an overall mental and or physical health benefit to those

360
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 3: with access to the feature. And on one hand, this

361
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 3: basic idea would seem to line up with the late EO.

362
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 3: Wilson's biophilia hypothesis, something we've talked about on the show before.

363
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is kind of interesting. So we've done multiple

364
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: episodes exploring and critiquing the biophilia HIH hypothesis at length

365
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: in the past, so we're not going to go into

366
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,399
Speaker 1: a great depth on that again here, but briefly, in

367
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: Wilson's words, this would have been what he believed was

368
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: quote the innate tendency to focus on life and lifelike processes.

369
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: So the argument goes that there is something in our

370
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 1: brains that calls us to be fascinated by and attracted

371
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: to other forms of life beyond just the obvious and

372
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: direct benefits to our survival that we would get from them.

373
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: So it's obvious why you would be attracted to, say

374
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 1: an animal or a plant that you might eat for food,

375
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: but that our fascination by an attraction to life forms

376
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 1: goes way beyond this, goes to you things that you

377
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: can't eat, things that you can't necessarily get any tangible,

378
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: quantifiable benefit from. We still these other life forms, We

379
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: still want to see and touch and spend time around them,

380
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: and when they're not present in our lives, we feel

381
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: a kind of we feel that loss as a kind

382
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 1: of malaise or unhappiness. And so a funny thing here

383
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: about water is that, of course moving water is very

384
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: often associated with the suite of esthetic and environmental preferences

385
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: suggested by the biophilia hypothesis. Yet of course water is

386
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: itself not alive. It, like rocks and air, is part

387
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: of the inorganic environment. And yet of course the presence

388
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: of water is greatly associated with the presence of life. Basically,

389
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 1: all life on Earth needs water to survive, and it's

390
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: not an accident that when you know you're walking through

391
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 1: the desert and you come to an oasis, it is

392
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: suddenly surrounded by forms of life that were not found

393
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: in the surrounding landscape.

394
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, you can make the argument,

395
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: you know, we're hardwired to appreciate something like a nice

396
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: flowing stream as opposed to another body of water. How

397
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 3: would Donald Pleasants put it, Joe.

398
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 1: Oh, the spirit of dark and lonely waters.

399
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the dark and lonly water.

400
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: That's it, ready to trap the unware, the show off,

401
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: the fool.

402
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 3: In this, we're of course referring to something we discussed

403
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: in an older Halloween episode What Jenny Green Teeth? But

404
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 3: it was what a British public service advertisement or video

405
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 3: message warning you against stagnant ponds and the danger to

406
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: young children posed there.

407
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: Right, warning children not to play in the in the

408
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: pools of black liquid that gather in abandoned buildings.

409
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, thinking about biophilia hypothesis and in light

410
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: of all this is interesting and I was I was

411
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: looking around in in the book that Wilson co wrote

412
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 3: on it, and at one point mentioned he mentions that

413
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 3: while uphill or spraying aspects of artificial fountains rarely occur

414
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 3: in nature. He points that, you know, obviously the geysers,

415
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 3: but uh, but but still, even if a fountain is

416
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 3: pumping water straight up in the air, you know, it's

417
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: still something we connect with, even if this is not

418
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: the normal way that water behaves in just the average environment.

419
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 3: He writes, quote, yet the motion of water in fountains

420
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 3: seems to have the same hypnotic attraction as water flowing

421
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 3: downhill in a waterfall. He also writes that it would

422
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 3: be interesting to see a study of people observing quote

423
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: quiet and repetitive motions of predators, sharks in an aquarium,

424
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 3: circling birds of prey, or other stalking movements of wolves

425
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: or large felines, which combine Heraclitian movement with potential danger.

426
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 3: Not just to note there, Heraclitianism is a philosophy concerning

427
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 3: everything except the logos remaining in flux, with the four

428
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 3: elements eternally cycling into each other and so forth. There's

429
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: a lot to it, but the philosopher of its namesake

430
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 3: Heraclitis circle of five hundred BCE. His ideas can be

431
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 3: basically condensed down to the idea that everything flows, that

432
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 3: everything is becoming but never being. And that does feel

433
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 3: like it lines up with a lot of the essence

434
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: of moving water observations and the various metaphors we form

435
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: about it. But at any rate, yeah, I like how

436
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: this flows into the idea of the attractive nature of

437
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: streams and fountains. But coming back to what you know,

438
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 3: Wilson ponders here, and I looked up. I looked it up.

439
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: I wasn't able to find any studies that actually took

440
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 3: the challenge here, but I was wondering, Okay, aquariums are

441
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: especially relaxing, I find, or at least the parts that

442
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 3: involve fish and water. Sometimes the you know, the crowds

443
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: can be a bit much, but in terms of like

444
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: staring in through the aquarium glass at an aquarium enclosure

445
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 3: can be very relaxing. Sometimes there are sharks there. Our

446
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: local aquarium has sharks, and I was trying to I

447
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: was looking back on my experiences of viewing those sharks,

448
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: and I'm like, is this relaxing? And I'm not entirely sure.

449
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously for me anyway. I mean, if I'm

450
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 3: looking at a shark in a shark tank, I know

451
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: that I'm not in danger. It's not gonna, you know,

452
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: pop out of the glass at me. I'm distant from it.

453
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: On the other hand, observing large predators and zoo environments

454
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: sometimes can feel a little uncanny in my experience. You know,

455
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: like if the lion's looking right at you that sort

456
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: of thing, or you know, another large predator is eyeing

457
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 3: your toddler, your infant like that. That gets a little

458
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: that starts, you know, turning on some lights that are

459
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 3: kind of buried in your psyche. But in terms of

460
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 3: the sharks in the aquarium, I'm not sure. I asked

461
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: my wife about this and she was like, like, no, no,

462
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 3: it's it's absolutely relaxing. There's nothing, there's nothing stressful about

463
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: observing these predators. For her. I don't know if you

464
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: have any thoughts in this show.

465
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I may have missed something.

466
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 3: Here.

467
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: Was Wilson suggesting that the predators would be relaxing. I

468
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: interpreted him to mean that the idea of a slowly

469
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: circling predator with Heraclidean movement would be like an arresting image.

470
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: Well, I think the what I took to be the

471
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 3: idea is like which which energy is going to win? Out,

472
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: like the movement is relaxing, but it's a predator engaging

473
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: in the movement. In these we see traditional movements have

474
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 3: said predators like, what is going to be the end result?

475
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: I see?

476
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, Well, I'm not sure what I would say

477
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: about sharks in particular. I mean, I certainly find aquariums

478
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: incredibly relaxing, but like you also, that is, they're strongly

479
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 1: counteracted by the presence of loud crowds around them. But

480
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: like an viewing an aquarium in a quiet space is

481
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the most relaxing things I can imagine.

482
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure that a shark

483
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: being in there would really change anything about it. Seeing

484
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: the sharks swimming around, I mean that assuming I'm not

485
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: in the water.

486
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, or in the in the captivity of a bond

487
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 3: villain that's right now.

488
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's probably still just as relaxing as

489
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: any other side of an aquarium.

490
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we've drifted off course a little bit.

491
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 3: Let's get back to just the basic idea that spending

492
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 3: time near a body of water would have some sort

493
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 3: of beneficial effect on you.

494
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: Right, So, at this point, there have been a lot

495
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: of different studies investigating the impact of green and blue

496
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 1: spaces on human well being, and specifically, the question with

497
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: blue spaces would be does living near or spending time

498
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: near a body of water improve your mental and physical health?

499
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: And if so, how does it create those improvements? And fortunately,

500
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago, there was a meta

501
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: analysis that rounded up all of the existing research and

502
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: synthesized what we know so far with a special focus

503
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: on the mechanism of action the question of how blue

504
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: space works on us. The paper is called Mechanisms of

505
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: Impact of Blue Spaces on Human Health a Systematic Literature

506
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: View and meta analysis by Mikhail Georgiu at All published

507
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: in the journal the International Journal of Environmental Research and

508
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: Public Health in twenty twenty one, and this study begins

509
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: with the general survey of the research on the health

510
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: effects of exposure to natural environments. The authors note that

511
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: most of the research in this area has actually been

512
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: focused on something slightly different, on green spaces rather than

513
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: blue spaces, and this is also something we've looked at

514
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: in multiple episodes in the past. But short summary, there

515
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: is pretty strong evidence that living near or spending time

516
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: in areas where surfaces are covered in plant life, basically

517
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: where you'd be exposed to grass, trees, vegetation of various

518
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: sorts is correlated with a wide range of benefits in

519
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: all kinds of domains and everything from markers of physical health,

520
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: cardiovascular health, and so forth, to mental and emotional well being,

521
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: lower rates of anxiety and things like that, and even

522
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: greater cognitive performance in school children. So, in short, I

523
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: think we can say with pretty high confidence that it

524
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: is good for you to spend time in a park

525
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: or a forest compared to spending the same amount of

526
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: time in a landscape fully paved with metal and concrete

527
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: and plastic. Something about living near and spending time in

528
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: those kinds of environments has a wide range of benefits

529
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: for your body and mind. Now, the authors of this

530
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: study note that a lot of the research, unfortunately does

531
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: not disentangle the variables of exposure to blue spaces, meaning

532
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: bodies of water, including lakes, rivers, coastlines, canals, and in

533
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: some cases even smaller features like fountains and things, from

534
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: exposure to green spaces. Sometimes the presence of water is

535
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: treated as part of the definition of green spaces, sometimes not,

536
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: So that's unfortunate, and it would be good to separate

537
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: these variables out to see if they have effects independent

538
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: of one another, and fortunately some studies have done that.

539
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: They've separated them out and looked at blue spaces independently.

540
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: Now the first half of the question, do blue spaces

541
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: have positive effects on our well being? The answer seems

542
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: to be a pretty firm yes. The author's right. Recent

543
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: epidemiological studies have shown that blue spaces have a positive

544
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: effect on public health, including the reduction of mortality rate

545
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: with the greatest rate of decline seen in areas closest

546
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: to blue space, better physical health, and better mental health,

547
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: and their copious citations and support of these general statements.

548
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: So this brings us to the main question explored here,

549
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: which is why why is exposure to water or living

550
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: near water good for you? Why would it be good

551
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: for say, lowering your mortality or giving you better physical

552
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: health or mental health. And the authors of the study

553
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: explore four main hypothetical mechanisms, all of which are on

554
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: their own known to have significant positive effects on mortality,

555
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: physical health, and mental health. And these mechanisms are social interaction,

556
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: physical activity, environmental factors, and restoration. So physical activity, this

557
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: is pretty straightforward maybe blue spaces encourage people to get

558
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: more exercise. Getting more exercise is strongly correlated with decreased

559
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: mortality and improvements in mental and physical health. And maybe

560
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: something about living near water or having water in your

561
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: geographical area makes you more likely to exercise.

562
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: Okay, that seems to track. Yeah.

563
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: Second mechanism, maybe it's social interaction. Maybe blue spaces encourage

564
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: people to spend more time interacting with others rather than alone,

565
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: which again has well known, well established benefits. Third thing

566
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: is environmental factors. This refers to the effects of bodies

567
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: of water on other local environmental variables that have their

568
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: own effects on human well being. The author's write quote

569
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: blue spaces may contribute to a healthier environment and reduce

570
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: air pollution, heat island effect, risk of flooding, etc. And

571
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: then fourth restoration, exposure to blue spaces might improve restoration,

572
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: which they define by saying that they use the definition

573
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: from another paper. So I had to look up what

574
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: that paper was to get the definition, and basically it

575
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: seems to be quote recovery from depleted attentional capacity or stress.

576
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: This is also something we've explored on the show before.

577
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: But basically the question here would be whether exposure to

578
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: water sources helps people relax and recharge, to recover from

579
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: depleted attention spans from having you know, people spend a

580
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: lot of their attentional energy on certain types of tasks,

581
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: or not even tasks, maybe even just you know, like

582
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: scrolling their phones or something all day. This creates a

583
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: lot of stress. And then there are other types of

584
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: experiences people can have that tend to restore depleted the

585
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: tensional resources and relax you and sort of remove those

586
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: biomarkers of stress that people would notice, like you know,

587
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: elevated levels of cortisol and blood or in the saliva.

588
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: Interesting. So it's kind of a satisfying exercise to take

589
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: these different factors and apply them to different sort of

590
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: activities and environments, like for instance, you think of say

591
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: a fishing pond. A number of these you can easily

592
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: check off, I don't know, physical activity. I guess you

593
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 3: could have a discussion there regarding fishing, and I guess

594
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: it depends on how you're going about fishing. And then likewise,

595
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: if you apply it to say a fountain in the

596
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: middle of a public square, that sort of thing. Some

597
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: of these more easily or checked off the list here.

598
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 3: But even like physical activity, I mean you think of

599
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: environments that have a fountain. I mean, I don't know

600
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 3: about the rest of you. I think of like children

601
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: playing inside fountain, whether they're supposed to or not. I

602
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: think of people doing things around the fountain. So even

603
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: if you're not, say, attempting to swim laps in the

604
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: fountain or do boating in the fountain, there still may

605
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: be physical action that is encouraged around it.

606
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: Right, So we'll get to in a second what the

607
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: evidence for these factors or not is. But yeah, you

608
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: can't always know exactly how it works, but you can

609
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: imagine tons of possibilities, like maybe having a canal or

610
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: a river or something nearby just makes people want to

611
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: get out and go on a walk more often that

612
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,959
Speaker 1: it could be. Yeah, But finally I wanted to finish

613
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: up my note about what the mechanism with restoration would

614
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: be if blue spaces do encourage restoration that leads to

615
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: the better effects on mental and physical health, because the

616
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: authors say, quote, stress, anxiety, depressed mood, and psychological well

617
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: being have been linked with the risk of cardiovascular diseases

618
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: and mental health issues. So that link is also firmly established.

619
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: So the authors did their review and analyzed all the

620
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: studies that had any results illuminating these possible mechanisms, whether

621
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: they hold true or not, and there were fifty studies total.

622
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: In their review they said twenty seven. Ultimately, they concluded

623
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: had data relevant to the meta analysis on this question,

624
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: and what they found was quote three of the four

625
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 1: hypothesized pathways physical activity, restoration, and environmental factors are supported

626
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: by empirical evidence, while findings on social interaction are inconclusive. Now.

627
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: As for physical activity, they say, people's physical activity seem

628
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: to increase with both their proximity two blue space and

629
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: with the total amount of blue space in their geographical

630
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: area where they lived, So it seems that both of

631
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: these factors are correlated with people getting more exercise. It

632
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: seems people get out and get more physical activity if

633
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: there is water somewhere in their neighborhood, and also more

634
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: if their home is physically closer to water. So this

635
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: seems like a pretty strong candidate explanation. Second one is restoration.

636
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: They found that blue space was correlated with increased restoration.

637
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: The authors write, intriguingly, the increase of amount of blue

638
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: space within a geographical area was found to be the

639
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: highest among all mediating pathways and exposures. This evidence, therefore

640
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: suggests that developing more blue spaces within neighborhoods could primarily

641
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: benefit the restorative character of an area. So having some

642
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: kind of blue space in your general geographic area definitely

643
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: that helps with alleviating stress. However, the interesting and kind

644
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: of surprising thing to me was that they did not

645
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: find evidence that your individual proximity to blue space had

646
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: an effect on restoration, and they write, quote, while urbanicity

647
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: is found to increase mental disorders through stress, we propose

648
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: that creating more blue spaces and promoting contact with them

649
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: can be used to reverse this effect and ameliorate urban living.

650
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: So it looks like another fairly strong candidate to me here,

651
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: Having more water and waterways in the general area where

652
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: you live seems to have a relaxation and restoration effect

653
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: on people, counteracting stress and thus achieving improvements in health.

654
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: Of course, again, chronic stress is bad for you. Now,

655
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: the other two mechanisms were more complicated or a different story.

656
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: As for environmental factors, they say, there is evidence for

657
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: a couple of things, but it's kind of complicated. So

658
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: the authors did find some evidence that blue spaces correlate

659
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: with lowering heat stress and with improving air quality, but

660
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: they said that the evidence base for those was kind

661
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: of small and messy, and other environmental factors they looked at,

662
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: such as effects on noise pollution and biodiversity, there was

663
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: not enough evidence to reach a conclusion. And then they

664
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: also say when it comes to environmental factors, there are

665
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: some that could be operating in the opposite direction, like,

666
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, there could be some negative environmental

667
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: effects of having water nearby, such as say, being a

668
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: vector for efect xious disease or something like that. So

669
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: this one seems to be sort of a question mark.

670
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: The evidence for the effects that are there is kind

671
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: of weak, and effects appear to be going in both directions.

672
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: And then finally, for social interaction, they said that the

673
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: evidence again is kind of weak. Previous findings were mixed,

674
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: but the meta analysis did not find a significant effect

675
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: of blue spaces on social interaction. But it does look

676
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: like the evidence for two of the four categories is

677
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: pretty strong. Having more blue space in the neighborhood and

678
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: living closer to blue space appears to increase people's amount

679
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: of physical exercise. Which has strong benefits for health, and

680
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: living in an area with more blue space in the

681
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: general geographical region has restorative effects. It helps people relax

682
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: and recharge to counteract the stress of life. Now, I

683
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: do want to mention that this study was focused on

684
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: blue spaces in general, and the majority of effects documented,

685
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: from what I could tell, were probably coming more from

686
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: larger nature and artificial waterways like lakes and rivers and

687
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: canals and so forth. So I don't know how much

688
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: you could map the total effects of blue space onto

689
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: specific things like smaller water features installations like fountains and

690
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: so forth.

691
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 3: Right, So don't take this podcast episode or these various

692
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: studies here is just like clear evidence that it's time

693
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 3: to install that water feature in your yard, because it

694
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 3: might not have ultimately have that big a difference, but

695
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: who knows. Maybe it'll be delightful, maybe it will be calming.

696
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 3: Maybe all you need is that the sound of trickling water.

697
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: But a lot of the more specific and detail oriented

698
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: questions out of the way, it does seem just generally

699
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: true that, yes, green space is good for mental and

700
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: physical health, and blue space also seems to be pretty

701
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: good for mental and physical health.

702
00:40:51,080 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely Now I was looking at a study out of

703
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two titled a population based Retrospective Study on

704
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: the Modifying effect of urban blue Space on the impact

705
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: of socioeconomic deprivation on Mental Health twenty nine through twenty

706
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: eighteen by Giorgio at All, published in Scientific Reports.

707
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: I think this is the same first author as the

708
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: meta analysis I just looked at.

709
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: So this particular study quote aimed to investigate whether living

710
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 3: near blue space longitudinally modifies the effect of socioeconomic deprivation

711
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 3: on mental health the author's right quote. Hence, we study

712
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 3: longitudinally the impact of a large scale regeneration of the

713
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: Glasgow branch of the Fourth and Clyde Canal, an urban

714
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 3: blue space, on mental health, using routinely collected clinical data.

715
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 3: Now I had to look up some images of what

716
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: this area looked like. I included one here for you, Joe.

717
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 3: It looks nice. You basically a canal space with a

718
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 3: lot of vegetation grown up on one side of it,

719
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 3: you know, And then I mean a little bit on

720
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: the surface of the water. You have a well it

721
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: looks like a walking and or bicycle path, and then

722
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 3: some more green space and some walls and some trees

723
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: and whatnot, and it looks pleasant, looks like a place

724
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 3: if you lived in this area you might go to

725
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 3: for a bike ride or a walk, et cetera. So

726
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: a number of factors went into this localized study, including

727
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 3: distance one resides from the blue space, psychotropic medication prescriptions,

728
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: socioeconomic deprivation in the area, comorbidities, and demographics. So what

729
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 3: did they determined in this analysis? Will they identified a

730
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: protective modifying effect of living near the blue spaces in

731
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 3: relation to the impact of socioeconomic deprivation and mental health disorders.

732
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: So the idea here is that the blue space doesn't

733
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: completely cancel out all of the negative effects on mental health,

734
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 3: but it provides what they describe as a quote unquote

735
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 3: protective moat, which is also clever because you know it's

736
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 3: a water feature. But they also write that their findings

737
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 3: suggests that increased exposure to blue spaces rolled out in

738
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: urban spaces could reduce medication intake and reduce mental health

739
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: inequalities in urban areas.

740
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's important to note that while like

741
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: the positive effects of things like blue spaces does appear

742
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: to be pretty good, also the effects are fairly modest,

743
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: So they're not going to be like a fix all

744
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: for all of everyone's problems, but they seem to be

745
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: part of a suite of solutions to generally make life

746
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: and make urban environments more friendly and those kind of things.

747
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: While no one of them is going to be life changing,

748
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: probably they can add.

749
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 3: Up, yeah, yeah, they can all add up to an

750
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 3: increase in quality of life, staving off some of these

751
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: additional mental and health issues. So something that should certainly

752
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: should be factored into urban planning, to urban restoration projects

753
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: and so forth. And you know, just on an individual level,

754
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: you know, you can feel a little better about taking

755
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 3: time out of your day to be near water, be

756
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: it in the form of you know, some sort of

757
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: an artificial pond, fountain, et cetera, or you know, local

758
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 3: bodies of water and so forth.

759
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: You know, there's something I wonder about that I haven't

760
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: seen this sited in any papers we were looking at

761
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: or anything. This is just kind of an amusing but

762
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is some psychological benefit or quality

763
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: of life benefit to just having something near you that

764
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: is an excuse for you to go do something you

765
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: don't have to do, you know, and it can be anything.

766
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: It can be. You could be a park, or it

767
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: could be a pathway near your house or something just

768
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: an excuse to like an excuse to go do something

769
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: that is not work and is not like a screen.

770
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

771
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And that you know, ultimately occupies your mind

772
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 3: in a way that that may force out other thoughts

773
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 3: and other preoccupations. You know that that taps into, you know,

774
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 3: our basic primal wiring to see what's going on over

775
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 3: there by the water? Are there ducks? What are the

776
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 3: ducks doing are they are they mining their own business

777
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 3: or are they looking at me suspiciously? Are there coins

778
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: in the fountain? Et cetera. And again, if you're on

779
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 3: the fence about building that coy pond, you know, don't

780
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 3: don't build it just because you listen to this episode.

781
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 3: But also maybe don't not build it.

782
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: We're not saying it's going to be a cure all

783
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: but also, hey, you know, water's nice, why not go

784
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: for it?

785
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 3: It might be nice.

786
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 1: Now, the one thing I would hesitate on is throwing

787
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: pennies in the pond with the fish.

788
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, yeah.

789
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's a bad idea, but I

790
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: have a hunch.

791
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, based on all the signs I see

792
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 3: places I go, they say, don't throw the coins in

793
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: because they're not good for the fish or the turtles

794
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 3: or what have you. So unless it is a designated

795
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: wishing fountain, don't cast your wishes because it's you know,

796
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: it's not gonna work. All right, we're gonna go ahead and

797
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 3: close this episode out, but we'd love to hear from

798
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: everyone out there. What are your thoughts on green spaces

799
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 3: and blue spaces, on naturally occurring bodies of water and fountains.

800
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite that you have observed or

801
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: hang out around frequently? Let us know. We don't love

802
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: to hear from you. Also, thanks to my wife who

803
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 3: suggested this episode. We were kind of casting around and

804
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 3: I would I said, hey, what what would you like

805
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: to hear an episode about? And she said, oh, I've

806
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 3: heard heard some about some studies regarding blue spaces, and

807
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: so we looked into it and here we are. If

808
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 3: you would like to catch up on past episodes of

809
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 3: the show, well you can find them in the Stuff

810
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind podcast feed. We have core episodes

811
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have episodes of Listener Mail

812
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 3: on Monday's short form Artifact or Monster Fact episodes on Wednesdays.

813
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 3: On Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to just

814
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. And

815
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: in terms of that fire Extinguisher episode of Invention that

816
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 3: we mentioned offhand, I cannot remember if we have republished

817
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: that one in the Stuff to Blow Your podcast feed,

818
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 3: I assume that we have, but there is also a

819
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: separate abandoned podcast feed for Invention, which is a show

820
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: we did for a period based on inventions, so you

821
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: can also find it there if you wish.

822
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

823
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

824
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

825
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

826
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

827
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: dot com.

828
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

829
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app podcasts,

830
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.