1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Holly Frye. Today we talked about the collision of the 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: SS Andrea Doria and the Stockholm and the rescue successfully 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: of most of the people who were on the Andrea 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Doria before it sank, which I don't want to make 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: light of the fact that I think fifty one people 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: were killed, but so often the shipwreck episodes involve almost 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: all hands being killed in like a terrifying nighttime, freezing 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: water situation. That having an episode where it was much 11 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: more about the rescue, the successful rescue of so many 12 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: people at the same time, though so many eerie similarities 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: to the Empress of Ireland disaster, especially the parts with 14 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: the colors of the side lights and the turning the 15 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: wrong direction to turn into something rather than away from it. 16 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: I was like, I literally wrote this exact shipwreck previously. Yeah, 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: it's it's eerie, right, But then when you consider the scenario, 18 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: I guess it feels less weird because they were in 19 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: such similar conditions that it kind of makes sense. Yeah, 20 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: the same problems would have arisen. Yeah, which stinks. Yeah, 21 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: it breaks my heart that it's a case where probably 22 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: no one ever felt at peace about it afterwards. It 23 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: was evolved since there was never any formal declaration or 24 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: finding about what had taken place. Yeah, And I also 25 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: read so many articles that like stridently argue a thing, 26 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: and then there's another argue that or another paper that 27 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: like stridently argues that paper number one is wrong, and 28 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: I don't know which is correct. One thing that we 29 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: didn't get into that some sources do point out is 30 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: that the fact that radar, in terms of civilian passenger ships, 31 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: radar a fairly new innovation. A number of commentators were like, 32 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: radar should be a navigational tool, not the source of 33 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: your navigation, right, And it reminded me of things that 34 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: have happened in more recent years where there have been 35 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: either crashes or people who've gotten lost in a perilous 36 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: way from the reliance on GPS and sort of going 37 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: where the GPS directions direct a person to go, sometimes 38 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: bypassing numerous signs that say something like seasonal road not 39 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: maintained in winter and that kind of thing. I've just 40 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: I felt some similarities there. Or if you're like a 41 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: relative that I have who I will not throw into 42 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: the bus, and you're not. You're still using one of 43 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: those old GPS machines and not like a thing on 44 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: your phone, and it requires you to occasionally plug it 45 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: into something so it can get current maps, and you 46 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: don't do that. Look, I'm just saying there have been 47 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: some arguments. As we stand in the middle of nowhere. 48 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: My spouse's car has a built in GPS and I'm 49 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: not gonna throw him under the bus to explain why 50 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: it can not be updated. But there have been a 51 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: couple of times where the ten plus year old maps 52 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: on the car have caused a problem, And I'm like, 53 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: we just just use your phone. Just plug in that phone. 54 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: But just use the phone, I will say, in defense 55 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: of your phone's GPS maps. Also, I feel like, and 56 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: I could be wrong, the last eighteen months to two years, 57 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: they got a whole lot better like where they're Actually 58 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: what made it apparent to me is that there is 59 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: a specialty vet we had to go to for a while, huh. 60 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: And it's in a part of town where there was 61 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: just tons of construction constantly going on, huh. And the 62 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: maps were doing a pretty good job of keeping up 63 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: with the day to day shifts in lanes and road closures. Yeah. 64 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: I have run a foul of this a couple of 65 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: times very recently, where there were road closures that the 66 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: maps didn't know about and the map was like, turn 67 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: left here, and I'm like, well, there's a solid barricade 68 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: across the entire road, so I definitely cannot do that. 69 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: That's just the off road part of your journey. Did 70 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: you know? Were you not ready for that? The other 71 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: thing that I like, I don't want to name any 72 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: specific mapping service, but I have had issues with the 73 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: map wanting to plot sort of a shortcut for me 74 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: to go down a neighborhood street that like really doesn't 75 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: need a bunch of additional car traffic on it, and 76 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: then at the end of that neighborhood street, I'm going 77 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: to turn left across a very busy road at with 78 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: no stop sign or no stoplight or no anything to 79 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: make the turning left there easier. And I'm like, this 80 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: is irritating me. I would rather have gone the one 81 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: entire block longer way right and not have to deal 82 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: with this. But anyway, that's me being overly reliant on 83 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: the GPS I try to often give it the parameters 84 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: of like longer is fine if you were left turned sure, 85 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: or like I don't want to mess with the highway, 86 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: Like I'm fine driving on the Interstate, but sometimes in 87 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: Atlanta during busy traffic times, yeah, give me surface streets 88 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: all day long, I don't. I don't want to mess 89 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: with the highway. One of the worst experiences that I 90 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: had in this regard, Patrick had turned on. This was 91 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: in the car. This was using the car maps, which 92 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: we pretty much don't use anymore, but he had turned 93 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: the car setting on too avoid highways because it was 94 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: rush hour and he needed he needed to drive into 95 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: Boston for a particular thing, and there was some reason 96 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: that it had to be done in the car, because wow, 97 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: do I not ever want to drive into Boston. And 98 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: then the next day I had gone out to Harvard, Massachusetts, 99 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: not Harvard University, the town of Harvard, Massachusetts, which is 100 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: like a little farther out, and I didn't realize avoid 101 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: highways was on, and this is a trip that should 102 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: really ideally happen on a highway, right, And I'd like, 103 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: I didn't realize what was going on, and I kept 104 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: being like the highways right there, and the car was 105 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: like do you turn over here? Though over here? Yeah, 106 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: it was a bit frustrating anyway. A couple of random 107 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: side notes. Harry A. Trask, who was awarded Pulitzer Prize 108 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: and Photography for like some really stunning photos of the 109 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: Andrea Doria as it was thinking, was also the person 110 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: who took the photo during the nineteen sixty seven Boston Marathon, Oh, 111 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: showing Jock Simple, who was a race organizer trying to 112 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: physically manhandle Catherine Switzer. Yeah out of the race. Oh, 113 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: that picture is so good. I mean it's not a 114 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: good moment, but it's a great capture. It is a 115 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: great capture of a picture. Other random thing, I have 116 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: seen a piece of art from the Andrea Doria. Back 117 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: in like twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, there was an 118 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: exhibit at the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem. It was 119 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: called ocean Liners, Glamour, Speed and Glory. Patrick specifically wanted 120 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: to go to it because he was writing a story 121 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: that was set aboard an ocean liner. And I I 122 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: don't remember if there was something there from the Andrea 123 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: Doria besides this one thing, but one of the things 124 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: was an artwork panel, a very like mid century style 125 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: panel on wood depicting the Zodiac that had washed to 126 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: shore on Nantucket after the wreck. I'm not sure what 127 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: else I may have seen at this exhibit, because somehow 128 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: the only photo I have remaining on my phone, and 129 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: I did not go look for backups to see what 130 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: was on the backups. But the one picture from this 131 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: exhibit that is still on my phone is one from 132 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: It's a literal deck chair from the Titanic, Nice, which 133 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: was the only photo that I had easily accessible. As 134 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: we were discussing the photograph being taken as the ship 135 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: was sinking, I was reminded of when we talked about 136 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: the sinking of the Titanic and the first hand account 137 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: being thrown over to the waiting reporter in the boat 138 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: and the people getting off the rescue ships able to 139 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: purchase the newspaper with the story of what had just happened. 140 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: Is yeah, the port, which is just going to be 141 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: a weird thing. Like can you mentione seeing that photograph 142 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: the next day and being like, right, yeah, I was 143 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: there for that. This was also one of the first 144 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: disasters of this I don't know, but I don't want 145 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: to like definitively say a timeline, but one of the 146 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: first major disasters that everybody was able to see a 147 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: bunch of stuff from on television, And we didn't really 148 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: mention that in the episode at all. But like there's 149 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: more of you know, people who were alive in the 150 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: fifties and old enough to remember the fifties, like it's 151 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: a wreck that a lot of people remember seeing footage 152 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: of on TV, you know, and then people alive in 153 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: the eighties, which I was my have memories of the 154 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: anti climactic safe opening, which I don't remember at all. 155 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: I don't either, who knows if I watched this. It 156 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: reminded me a bit of when when there's a time 157 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: capsule somebody finds and opens and it turns out what's 158 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: in the time capsule is like molded or just you know, 159 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: usually what's in a time capsule. We've got a whole 160 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: episode on time capsules back in the archive, but like 161 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: a lot of times, what's in there doesn't turn out 162 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: to be as exciting as what people imagined is going 163 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: to be there when they open it. Yeah, that makes 164 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,599 Speaker 1: me think of the Crypt of Civilization, which makes me 165 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: laugh and laugh a little bit, which is you know 166 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: the air tight room at Oglethorpe University that's, yeah, supposed 167 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: to be opened in eighty one thirteen. Yeah, I don't 168 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: remember when we've talked about that, but I remember talking 169 00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: about it. I don't either, but I walked by it 170 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: almost every day for many years. So yeah, yeah, because 171 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: I worked there for a bit, I am very much 172 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: of the opinion that a life lived in fear is 173 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: a life half lived. Sure, thank you, Boss Lehmann for 174 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: that one, if you know, you know, But I am 175 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: not a cruise person. And then every time we do 176 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: one of these, I'm like, I'm really not a cruise person. 177 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm still going to go on another cruise 178 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: at some point, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, I will be 179 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: on the deck watching for other ships. Yeah. I used 180 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: to be this way about airplanes. Yeah. And then when 181 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: Patrick and I got married and we were planning a honeymoon, 182 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: the thing that like, I was much better about flying 183 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: by that point, I had worked on it because I 184 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: needed to be able to fly for my job, but 185 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: I had never at that point flown across the ocean before, 186 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: and I was very nervous about that. And that is 187 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: how we wound up going to Iceland, a place that 188 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: you and I are returning to, Yeah, in November. Yes, yeah, 189 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: I'm not sure at this moment if there are still 190 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: tickets available right now, it is listed, it is listed 191 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: as sold out. Okay, We're not sure if there's gonna 192 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: be an ability to expand the number or not. Yeah, 193 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: So stay tuned. If you missed it and you still 194 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: want to try, keep checking back. Yeah, And you can 195 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: go to Defined Destinations dot com and you can check 196 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: it out and see if it's even something you would 197 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: be interested in doing. Talked about barb wire YEP. One 198 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: of the resources that I came across is pretty interesting. 199 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: It is actually like a blog and a personal page. 200 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: But this person has gotten a lot of people that 201 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: work in the history space to write for it. And 202 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: that is a site run by Jesse hash LaRue. She is, 203 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: I believe the like a great niece of Jacob Haage. 204 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: And so his story is a little, you know, other 205 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: than that one book that he wrote, there's not a 206 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: lot that people know about his early life. There's not 207 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: a lot, you know, he has in some cases in 208 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: recent years kind of fallen out of the story for 209 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: people and she's trying to piece the story back together, 210 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: and she's gotten like people that you know, run historical 211 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: sites in the area to write about this entire story 212 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: and their relationship between these two men. So I really 213 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: really appreciate that because that's a pretty good one. I 214 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: sort of love Jacob Page because he is I say 215 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: this in a complimentary manner, an odd duck, because he 216 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: like one of the things that he did as all 217 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: of this was happening and he was feeling very frustrated, 218 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: was he wrote poetry about the people that he felt 219 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: were stealing his ideas. Oh that's funny, And I have 220 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: one of these poems I'm so excited, which goes, this 221 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: life is not all sunshine as barb fence scalpers have 222 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: found the crosses they bear are heavy, and under them 223 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: lies no crown. And while they're seeking the roses, the 224 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: thorns full off they scan. Yet let them, though they're wounded, 225 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: be as happy as they can like knife twist. I 226 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: love it. I love it. There is also a really 227 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: really cool part of his story and developing his esque 228 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: curve wire that I left out because it's not really 229 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: germane to the way things played out. But before he 230 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: started working with wire and metal to work on a fence. 231 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: He did an experiment planting o sage orange seeds. Oh yeah, 232 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: which for anybody that doesn't know what that plant is, 233 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: it's not an orange in the citrus sense. It's like 234 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: a hard fruit that looks very lumpy. It's round like 235 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: an orange, but it's not, to my understanding, very delicious. 236 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: People don't usually eat it. But it has these kind 237 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: of vines that have natural spiky bits on them, and 238 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: he thought, oh, if I could grow that to wind 239 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: with wire, I could really do something that's organic and cool. 240 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: That didn't work out, It just was too too hard 241 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: to make it happen, but it was an interesting idea. Yeah, 242 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: there's I don't know which of the which of the 243 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: shows it was that I was watching during early COVID, 244 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: but I watched all of these shows that were like 245 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: a historian and a couple of archaeologists go to live 246 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: in the manner of you know, farmers long ago in Britain. 247 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: And in one of those there was a fence that 248 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: they were constructing and it was out of like very 249 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: dense kind of spiky vegetation. Yeah, not out of like 250 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: planks or wire or whatever. And I'd like, I don't 251 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: remember thinking that was pretty cool because growing up in 252 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: a place where there were farms and people had cows, like, 253 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: the kinds of fencing that we saw day to day 254 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: were chain link, split rail fences and barbed wire or electrified. Right. 255 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: That was the other thing, the other thing I didn't 256 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: talk about on the show that I thought was really 257 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: interesting and it became its own little rabbit hole for me, 258 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: but not really germane. Here is some of the stuff 259 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: that had and in Texas, while the ranchers there were 260 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: deciding whether or not they wanted to deal with barbwire, okay, 261 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: because there were actually a lot of issues brought up 262 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: about whether or not it was humane to use, and 263 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: as a consequence, there was a lot of legislation passed 264 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: in Texas, way ahead of a lot of other places 265 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: about humane treatment of animals and a lot of them. 266 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: Was that my understanding, Again, I read this as someone's account. 267 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: I didn't look up the actual legislation, but like one 268 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: of the pieces allegedly is that they were like, okay, 269 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: but if you're going to use this kind of fence, 270 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: you have to build a second fence of like wood, 271 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: so that the animals would hit that first instead of 272 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: dragging their hides along barbed wire. Yeah, right away. And 273 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: so if you have ever, I mean I have driven 274 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: around the country many times, you know, traveling from the 275 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: time I was a kid my parents were begin to driving, 276 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: and I remember seeing these double fences where it's like 277 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: a barbed wire fence with a wooden slat fence, and 278 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: I always thought, oh, they put a new fence up 279 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: and didn't take the old one down. No, In many cases, 280 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: that is actually to protect the animals within from the 281 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: hurt because they were very worried, especially with some of 282 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: the the previous versions of barbed wire, like the ones 283 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: that had like spikes sticking out of wood that were 284 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: more knife like than pokey. Even though pokey is also 285 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: damaging to an animal, right that it would cause big 286 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: cuts in them, and that they would get infected, and 287 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: that worms would grow in them like they would and 288 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: so which of course humane or not. That's also a 289 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: financial consideration, right if you're driving cattle that is ruining 290 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: your assets well, and in addition to like injury to 291 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: the animals hides, you know, there's also issues with like 292 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: especially as fences break down for whatever reason. Stepping on 293 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: the barbed wire or ingesting pieces of it. There are 294 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: so many other things that that can happen as a result. 295 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: We talked almost exclusively about barbed wire in the context 296 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: of like ranches and farms and containing animals or keeping 297 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: animals away from crops, and we didn't because it wasn't 298 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: really germane to these men's story. We didn't really touch 299 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: on the fact that, like almost immediately after it was developed, 300 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: barbed wire was also used for things like trench warfare 301 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: and like surrounding the walls of prisons, like that kind 302 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: of stuff. So this suddenly widely available, pretty inexpensive tool 303 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: put to a lot of other uses. Also, Yeah, I 304 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: mean it's interesting, right. We talked about how much it 305 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: shaped the way the US kind of developed in terms 306 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: of landownership, but we didn't talk about those things which 307 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: are another outcropping of this one invention, and that really 308 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: shaped a lot of things that are still impacting our 309 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: society today. It's very, very fascinating to me that one 310 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: concept became the seed of so much other stuff. We 311 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: will find ways to make anything problematic as a species. 312 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: That's our specialty. Yeah, everybody'd be cool, be cool, I 313 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: understand the desire to keep cows out of your garden, 314 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: which was allegedly why Joseph Glidden was interested in this 315 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: in the first place, was that his wife Lucinda was like, like, 316 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: your cows keep eating my vegetables. But I couldn't ever 317 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: get a you know, a corroboration on sharing the story. 318 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: But I love it. Yeah, listen, who among us? I 319 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: can't grow amorant anymore because the squirrels eat it all 320 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: before it becomes anything good. Just a pity. But I'm 321 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: just like, okay, squirrels. Yeah. We have a lot of 322 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: rabbits in our neighborhood, and I think they're very cute. 323 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: And I also don't have a garden of food plants, 324 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: and I know a lot of the like our urban 325 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: community gardens in the Boston area, like, rabbits are a 326 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: huge problem because they are very cute, but it's really 327 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: hard to keep them out of the gardens, and so 328 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: people come in and you know they're they're vegetables that 329 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: they've been working so hard on growing have been eaten 330 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: up by rabbits. Also a lot of strategies to try 331 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: to keep the rats out of both the garden plots 332 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: and like any storage for mulch or anything like that. Yeah, 333 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: it's tricky. This is the hard part, even if you're 334 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: like a small at home gardener wanting to be friends 335 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: with nature and also keep them from thwarting all of 336 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: your efforts in the gardening space. Tricky, tricky. That's one 337 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: of the things that's also quaint. In that little book 338 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: that we talked about that Washburn and Mowen and Ellwood 339 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: put out, they do talk about like in their usage cases, 340 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: it's like, even if you just have a small crop 341 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: of squash and cucumber, barbed wire is the solution for you. 342 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: I'm remembering when because we grew pretty much all the 343 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: vegetables that we ate when I was growing up, and 344 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: I remember when it came to like our lettuces and cabbages, 345 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: we had these wire cages and going down the row 346 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: and like putting a wire cage around each of those 347 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: to try to keep the rabbits from eating them so 348 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: that we could eat them. Yeah. Yeah, I'm spoiled enough 349 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: that I'm just a hobby gardener and I can be like, 350 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: it's fine, go ahead and eat it. You can have 351 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: the pumpkins. You're so cute, Hi baby, that's me. Yeah, 352 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: a ding dong would know no real focus in terms 353 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: of that. If you're a gardener and it's time where 354 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: you live and you have some spare time this weekend, 355 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: I hope you get to go out and play in 356 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: your garden and do something that makes you happy and 357 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: feel fulfilled and maybe add some greenery and either some 358 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: flowers or delicious things to your life if it works. 359 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: I have mixed luck, but my zinnis are happy this 360 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: year in the high biscus hit just started regrowing, So okay. 361 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: If you don't have time for any such things, or 362 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: if that's not your jam, I hope you get a 363 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: minute or two to do something that makes you feel 364 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: good and relaxed. And I also hope that everybody's cool 365 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: to each other. We will be right back here tomorrow 366 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: with a classic episode and then on Monday with something 367 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: brand new. Stuff you missed in History Class is a 368 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 369 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 370 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows.