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Speaker 1: Welcome everybody. Thursday edition of the Clay Travis and Buck

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Speaker 1: Sexton Show kicks off right now. Verdict Watch. We don't

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Speaker 1: have a screen to put that up on for all

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Speaker 1: of you, but your ears are the screen. Verdict Watch

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Speaker 1: is where we are right now for the New York

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Speaker 1: City Trump business records trial. It still feels weird to

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Speaker 1: say that out loud. The jury has it. Will update

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Speaker 1: you on what happened after our show yesterday. There were

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Speaker 1: there was some back and forth with the jury and

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Speaker 1: we have the deliberations still underway. So they've got the

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Speaker 1: case and they're going to get to decide. We'll dive

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Speaker 1: into it here momentarily. Also, Clay more fallout from the

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Speaker 1: very obvious pressure campaign slash hit job against Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: Justice Alito. Now people are noticing, really weird there's some

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Speaker 1: hit piece against any cony. It's husband as well, for

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Speaker 1: the crime of being a lawyer. That's interesting. That seems

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Speaker 1: kind of strange. There's nothing wrong with anything he's done,

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Speaker 1: but they're just digging into his clients and digging into

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Speaker 1: his firm and trying to create a focus on the

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Speaker 1: spouse once again of a Supreme Court justice. While there

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Speaker 1: are major decisions coming down. I think we should have

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Speaker 1: a discussion about that. Plus, our friend and Trump ally

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Speaker 1: Cash Patel, formerly of Trump's DoD, will be joining us

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Speaker 1: in the second hour to give us his thoughts. It

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Speaker 1: is possible, as we all sit here, we know this

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Speaker 1: today or tomorrow during our show live, we will have

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Speaker 1: a verdict for you. Right, it could stretch into next

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Speaker 1: week and have it knows, but there is a very

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Speaker 1: real possibility that today or tomorrow. So I want you

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Speaker 1: to make sure you're listening all three hours and listening intently,

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Speaker 1: because we may be able to tell you what the

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Speaker 1: future au the Republic is slash. Did Clay make the

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Speaker 1: right prediction or did I make the right prediction? He says,

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Speaker 1: hung jury. I say, wamp womp guilty verdict, which is

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Speaker 1: very sad, But I will say Clay, uh, Well, we'll

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Speaker 1: get into where we're seeing it going here in a second.

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Speaker 1: Just let's let's hear from Trump first on this one.

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Speaker 1: He spoke before the before the you know trial got

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Speaker 1: going again this morning. This is cut Wanda legally the CNN.

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Speaker 2: The crime here is not easy to explain or to

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Speaker 2: understand it.

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Speaker 3: It's just not understanding.

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Speaker 1: But in other words, there is no crime. This is

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Speaker 1: a CNN Catherine Christian from ms NBC.

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Speaker 3: I call it MSDNC legal analysts.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult because it's a very nuanced argument. It's never

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Speaker 1: been prosecuted before. This is an argument that has never

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Speaker 1: been prosecuted before, and hopefully they'll never be prosecuted again. Clay,

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Speaker 1: I think he stumbled onto a key argument here, or

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Speaker 1: not stumbled on too, but I think he's making key

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Speaker 1: argument and a legal philosophical one as well. If you

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Speaker 1: can't understand what the crime is, can it really be

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Speaker 1: a crime?

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: If if you tell a jury, this is the bad

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Speaker 1: thing the person did, we should take his freedom away,

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Speaker 1: we should punish him, and they go, what's the bad thing?

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Speaker 1: There is no bad thing. I think that speaks volumes.

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Speaker 4: There are a couple of things that are standing out

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Speaker 4: to me here as the deliberations go on. And I

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Speaker 4: texted you this yesterday when we finished the first day

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Speaker 4: and there was not a jury verdict. This is a

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Speaker 4: good sign that would suggest to me. And the fact

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Speaker 4: that they came out.

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Speaker 3: And they heard all of these all.

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Speaker 4: These instructions again and I think we need to have

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Speaker 4: a discussion about these jury instructions as well. But let

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Speaker 4: me start with where I see us currently sitting. They

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Speaker 4: have been hearing evidence.

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Speaker 3: In this case for a month.

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Speaker 4: They had a full week before the closing arguments from

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Speaker 4: both the prosecution and the defense, to be back home,

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Speaker 4: sitting and thinking about whatever opinions they might have to me.

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Speaker 4: The fact that we are sitting here on Thursday, they

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Speaker 4: didn't immediately have a verdict yesterday. With every minute that

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Speaker 4: ticks by, I think it's more likely there is someone

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Speaker 4: in that jury room who is saying I'm not going

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Speaker 4: to vote to convict. Now, that doesn't mean that the

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Speaker 4: person is going to stay in that position. It's possible

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Speaker 4: that their pressure on them if it's eleven to one.

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Speaker 4: The dynamics on this are so strange. It requires you

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Speaker 4: to be such a strong person to be sitting in

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Speaker 4: a room with eleven people pointing at you and saying

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Speaker 4: you're wrong. Maybe it's ten two, Maybe it's nine to three.

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Speaker 4: That makes it easier because then you have support. Maybe

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Speaker 4: initially it was nine to three and one of those

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Speaker 4: three felt the pressure, and now it's ten two or

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Speaker 4: it's eleven to one. I would love to have a

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Speaker 4: live camera in the jury deliberation room. But the longer

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Speaker 4: this goes on, the better it is for Trump because

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Speaker 4: this is a rig jury.

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Speaker 3: We know it.

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Speaker 4: This is an anti Trump jury. The longer they are out,

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Speaker 4: the better it is for Trump. Now, sometimes it's true

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Speaker 4: that jury's come back really quick and give a not

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Speaker 4: guilty verdict. We saw that, for instance in the OJ

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Speaker 4: Simpson trial. But I don't think there's anybody out there

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Speaker 4: who thinks the likelihood of Trump getting a not guilty

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Speaker 4: verdict is actually in play. I haven't heard anybody I

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Speaker 4: would basically put that at less than a one percent chance.

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Speaker 4: So to me, it's either conviction or hung jury. And

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Speaker 4: the longer this goes on, the more likelihood there becomes

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Speaker 4: of a hung jury. If we make it through today's

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Speaker 4: show and we have not got a jury verdict, then

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Speaker 4: I think it would be almost impossible to argue that

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Speaker 4: there isn't somebody holding out and saying I'm not willing

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Speaker 4: to vote for conviction.

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Speaker 3: I think that would be.

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Speaker 4: Twenty four hour period, all the time that they've had

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Speaker 4: to sit around. Nobody wants to be on jury duty.

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Speaker 4: I don't buy any people out there that are like, oh,

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Speaker 4: they're just milking this jury duty sucks. Most people don't

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Speaker 4: want to do it. They want to get back to

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Speaker 4: their life. They want to get back to their families.

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Speaker 4: They don't want to have to show up in this

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Speaker 4: dingy courtroom and sit around and debate. People are like, oh,

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Speaker 4: they're getting free lunches. Trust me, the lunch ain't that good.

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Speaker 4: They want to be done. So that's where I would

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Speaker 4: analyze it. Do you agree with that analysis?

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Speaker 3: What do you think's going on?

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Speaker 1: Ah? I think if you have to put if you

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Speaker 1: have to put money on it, so to speak, the

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Speaker 1: longer this thing goes, the likelier it is that there's

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Speaker 1: a hung jury. I think that's conventional wisdom. But going

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Speaker 1: a few days isn't going long, right, That's the issue.

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Speaker 1: Going for forty eight hours would be a pretty standard,

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Speaker 1: And at some level there may be a desire among

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Speaker 1: members of that jury pool to at least go through

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Speaker 1: the motions of making sure they're very thorough about all

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Speaker 1: the evidence before they decide, yeah, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: convict this God. Because to me, the judge has made

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Speaker 1: it very clear he wants there to People would argue this,

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Speaker 1: but I think the judge wants there to be a

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Speaker 1: conviction here. I think he's an anti Trump partisan. I

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Speaker 1: think that the prosecution has shown itself to be effectively

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Speaker 1: relying on a unfair jury pool. The prosecution here didn't

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Speaker 1: prove its case in any meaningful way, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think they believe they have to prove their case in

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Speaker 1: any meaningful way. So we'll see about all of these bets. Right,

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Speaker 1: everyone is making assumptions and everyone involved in this is

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Speaker 1: doing things that indicate how they think that it's going

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Speaker 1: to go. I will say this, Uh, for those of

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Speaker 1: us who were fighting the brass knuckles media brawl that

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Speaker 1: was Russia collusion, to see Andrew Weissman Muller's pit bull.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember this?

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Speaker 1: Muller's pit bull is what they called him. He was

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Speaker 1: the the you know, super aggressive lawman who was going

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Speaker 1: to get Trump on Russia collusion. This is the kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff this guy was trying to take down Trump

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Speaker 1: while he was president. And now he's on MSNBC. This

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Speaker 1: has cut four playing stuff like this. This is Weisman

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Speaker 1: with despection Judge Marshaun.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I am I am like now you know,

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Speaker 2: I have like a man crush on him. He is

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Speaker 2: such a great judge that it's hard to see that

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Speaker 2: the jurors wouldn't have the same impression. I mean, he's

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Speaker 2: just you just keep on thinking if you looked at

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Speaker 2: a dictionary for like judicial temperament, that's what you get.

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Speaker 1: This is a reminder one that lives are delusional, emotionally unstable,

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Speaker 1: and disconnected from reality. But also Clay Weissman may maybe

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Speaker 1: the one guy more than anyone else who tried to

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Speaker 1: weaponize the law. Wild Trump was president before all of this,

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Speaker 1: and you just see what a partisan, lunatic fraud he is.

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Speaker 1: So to me, on the one hand, it's good that

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Speaker 1: everyone mocks this moron for what he's, you know, showing

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Speaker 1: himself to be on television. He's done so much to

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Speaker 1: destroy the rule of law. He's such a slimy and

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Speaker 1: underhanded political hit man. But then I have to think, well,

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Speaker 1: what's happening in this trial?

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: This is that's where my cynicism comes from. If someone

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Speaker 1: like Andrew Weisman could have been the Deputy Special Council,

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Speaker 1: anything is possible now for the weaponization of our legal system.

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Speaker 4: I think that's all true. What we still don't know

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Speaker 4: is what do we know about these twelve jurors. We

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Speaker 4: did the jury reading, we got very bare biographical information.

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Speaker 4: We really don't know much about him. We don't know

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Speaker 4: whether there's diehard Trump people who got on this jury.

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Speaker 4: We don't know if there's diehard Biden people who got

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Speaker 4: on this jury. Well, we know there's no such thing

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Speaker 4: as a diehard Biden person. It would be a diehard

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Speaker 4: anti Trump person. We know that the overall makeup of

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Speaker 4: the jury is unlikely to be favorable to Trump. But

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Speaker 4: I just keep coming back to the standard here of

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Speaker 4: beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 3: There is zero doubt.

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Speaker 4: That Michael Cohen, by himself is the definition of a

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Speaker 4: beyond a reasonable doubt. He has lied consistently, He has

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Speaker 4: been completely untrustworthy. He is the foundation of this entire case.

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Speaker 4: In an honest, unbiased jury pool, I don't think there's

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Speaker 4: any doubt this would be a not guilty verdict. Now,

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Speaker 4: not guilty doesn't mean you're innocent. It just means that

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Speaker 4: the guilt has not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 4: And I think clearly here the guilt has not been

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Speaker 4: proved beyond a reasonable doubt. In a just jury pool,

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Speaker 4: this would be a not guilty verdict, and I think

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Speaker 4: it would happen quickly. I think we know there's no

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Speaker 4: chance of that based on this jury pool, but I

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Speaker 4: still have faith as we sit here, and I'm not

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Speaker 4: gonna lie. I'm nervous every time I hit refresh on

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Speaker 4: my Twitter field that there's gonna be saying somebody saying

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Speaker 4: there's a jury verdict. Because the longer this goes, I'm

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Speaker 4: hoping that at the end of today's show at three

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Speaker 4: pm Eastern, we still don't have a verdict, and that

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Speaker 4: this goes into Friday, because I do think the challenge

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Speaker 4: becomes going into the weekend without a verdict is a

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Speaker 4: monster win. The analogy I made Bucket was Trump entered

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Speaker 4: this game. If you want to consider in the context

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Speaker 4: of sports, like a twenty eight point underdog in a

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Speaker 4: football game, and we're now in the second half and

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Speaker 4: the game is still undecided, which is often a victory

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Speaker 4: for the underdog. To keep it close. Doesn't mean he

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Speaker 4: can't get convicted. But I think if you asked the prosecution,

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Speaker 4: they're starting to get increasingly nervous. The longer this stays out.

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Speaker 4: I think they thought they were going to get a

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Speaker 4: conviction fast. You don't think that Trump is making the

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Speaker 4: legal equivalent of a goal line stand here if we're

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Speaker 4: going to do sports. I mean, they got it to

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Speaker 4: the point where a jury's deciding whether he's guilty of

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Speaker 4: thirty four felonies. Yeah, but the fact that they got

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Speaker 4: this case brought was not a surprise to me. I

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Speaker 4: have been the moment that they brought these charges, I

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Speaker 4: thought they would get a conviction in New York City.

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Speaker 4: They actually did a worse job presenting a worse case

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Speaker 4: than I anticipated. And the fact that we're here is

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Speaker 4: I think a sign that things have not gone as

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Speaker 4: smoothly as possible for the prosecution. Now, and this is

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Speaker 4: where we haven't ever done a show like this, to

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Speaker 4: my knowledge.

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Speaker 3: At any given.

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Speaker 4: Point in time, one of us can come on and say, hey,

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Speaker 4: they've got a jury verdict, and the sooner it happens,

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Speaker 4: I think the better.

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Speaker 3: It is for the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: We promise you we will join it live if it

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Speaker 1: happened during the show, and you will hear it live

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Speaker 1: here on the show. We have our team monitoring this.

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Speaker 1: We will not miss it. We will get it to

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Speaker 1: you as soon as everybody or as soon as the

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Speaker 1: news is breaking. So stay with us today tomorrow. I

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Speaker 1: think we're going to have a verdict before the weekend,

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Speaker 1: as I've said all along, So we'll continue to follow

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Speaker 1: this one very closely. Also take some of your calls

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Speaker 1: on it. What do you think about where this is heading,

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Speaker 1: especially if you've got to legal background. Very curious to

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Speaker 1: know if you think there's anything here that we're not

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Speaker 1: seeing or you read the tea leaves differently. But also

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Speaker 1: the economy is something you got to be paying close

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Speaker 1: attention to these days. And a trusted friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Porter Stansbury, has a documentary about where the economy is

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Speaker 1: going this year that you need to see. I've done

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Speaker 1: Porter for a decade, hosted a podcast series with him,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes to our nation's economy and what

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Speaker 1: people need to do with their money, there's nobody out

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Speaker 1: there who's better when it comes to forecasting. He's got

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Speaker 1: a new documentary just released called America's Last Election. Look,

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Speaker 1: just go and watch this documentary. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: at all, but you can at least know what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about and make up your own mind. See it

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Speaker 1: need to see. Last Election Plot dot Com is the

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Speaker 1: Last Election Plot dot com paid for by Porter and Company.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes all you can do is laugh, and they do

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Speaker 5: a lot of it with the Sunday Hang Join Clay

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Speaker 5: and Buck as they laugh it up in the Clay

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Speaker 5: and Buck podcast feed on the iHeartRadio app or wherever

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Speaker 5: you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back in Clay, Travis Buck Sexton show. One thing

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Speaker 4: that really has me fired up about the Trump trial

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Speaker 4: that we have not discussed in great detail, Buck, is

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Speaker 4: the jury instructions are fifty five pages long. They are posted.

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Speaker 4: I shared them from my Twitter account. You can all

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Speaker 4: go read them. The only people in America that cannot

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Speaker 4: read a printed copy of the jury instructions are the

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Speaker 4: eighteen people, the twelve jurors and the six alternates who

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Speaker 4: are on and in the jury pool right now. So

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Speaker 4: as a result, they have to come back into the

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Speaker 4: courtroom and ask the judge to read them the jury

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Speaker 4: instructions all over again, which is what they were doing

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Speaker 4: this morning. Now this is New York Law reportedly, why

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Speaker 4: in the world would every juror not get printed instructions

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Speaker 4: that they could go and directly refer to, as opposed

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Speaker 4: to having to play a game of telephone where you

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Speaker 4: go sit in the jury box, the judge reads the

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Speaker 4: jury instructions, and then you have to go back and

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Speaker 4: reinforce what you believe the judge's jury instructions have been.

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Speaker 4: That just feels totally illogical to me.

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Speaker 1: But do you think that when it comes down to it,

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Speaker 1: does the jury care more about the jury instructions or

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Speaker 1: their feelings about Donald Trump and their responsibility to democracy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's if I were one of the two

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Speaker 1: lawyers on this jury, I would care a great deal

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Speaker 1: about the jury instructions. We know those people have sophisticatedly

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Speaker 1: legal training, and it's kind of uncommon to have two

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Speaker 1: lawyers on the jury play. I know a lot of

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Speaker 1: communist lawyers, my friends, in fact, some of the worst lawyers.

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Speaker 4: But I'm saying if I were on the jury pool.

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Speaker 4: Like these two lawyers, I would care a great deal.

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Speaker 4: I think about the jury instructions and the fact that

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Speaker 4: they're coming back in and asking for them to be

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Speaker 4: re read to me as a sign that they probably

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Speaker 4: would prefer to have the actual printed jury instructions.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 4: I think there's a flaw in the jury instructions which

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Speaker 4: we talked about the secondary crime not having to be unanimous.

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Speaker 4: People can use multiple different hooks with which to convict him.

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Speaker 4: But we again don't know exactly what the motivations are.

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Speaker 4: But the fact that they're coming in and asking for

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Speaker 4: them is a sign that they don't feel like they

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Speaker 4: have all the info.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it does feel like we're living in a

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Speaker 1: bizarre world. The answer to the crime, the answer to

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Speaker 1: the question what is the crime here is a novel?

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Speaker 1: You know, Yes, you have to explain it for twenty minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's not the way law is supposed to work, all right.

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Speaker 1: May's Military Appreciation Months and my cell phone company, Puretalk,

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Speaker 1: In fact, their commitment to veterans extends to their alliance

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Speaker 1: with America's Warrior Partnership, which works to prevent veterans suicide.

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Speaker 1: two five zero. Say our name's Clay and Buck. That's

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Speaker 1: Pound two five zero. Say Clay and Buck make the

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Speaker 1: switch today. Welcome back in to Clay and Buck. We'll

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Speaker 1: take some of your calls here coming up and get

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Speaker 1: into where we all think this is. This is going Also, Clai,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this, but we'll we'll,

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Speaker 1: we will certainly at some point of the show. Get

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Speaker 1: to on Morning Joe. They're like, everyone needs to stop

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Speaker 1: freaking out about Biden. You gotta keep your composure.

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Speaker 3: It's all gonna be fine. Gotta keep your composure.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think that it really is that that

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Speaker 1: is the dominant show if you're if you're a Democrat

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Speaker 1: Biden voter, the cable news ecosystem now mourning Joe because

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Speaker 1: all of CNN Primetime is a joke. Nobody cares about

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Speaker 1: MSNBC Pride Primetime really anymore. It doesn't ever break out

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Speaker 1: of the of the immediate audience that it has. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's not setting a national conversation with the New York

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Speaker 1: Times and others following in or whatever. So we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about Morning Joe. Tell everybody's gonna be fine.

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Speaker 3: Just calm down.

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Speaker 1: He's the guy who's the ship is sinking, and Morning

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Speaker 1: Joe's running around saying, it's fine, stay where you are.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I put the life preserver

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Speaker 1: on Team Biden. I'd put the life preserver on. I'd

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Speaker 1: make sure that there's enough room for you on the door.

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Speaker 1: That water is cold.

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying I will point out maybe a little

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Speaker 4: bit later, Buck, I've got the numbers. Biden yesterday hit

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Speaker 4: an all time low in approval for his entire presidency. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so the argument of Hey, we don't need to panic. Look,

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Speaker 4: we're five months out. Now, we're through May. Effectively, it's

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Speaker 4: time to start a little bit of a panic.

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Speaker 1: There was no way I was willing to. I was

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Speaker 1: willing to hold back on this. Again. I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: Celebrating early is devastation. You can never celebrate too early.

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Speaker 1: Wait until you win, then you can celebrate. But I

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Speaker 1: was waiting to waiting around to see that they would

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Speaker 1: start to sort of turn the knobs and turn the

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Speaker 1: media focus and you would have not, you know, a

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Speaker 1: rocket ship of Biden approval, but you would start to

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Speaker 1: see it's actually going the other direction. There's no way

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Speaker 1: at this stage that this is the plan. Okay, no

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Speaker 1: one will ever convince me that Biden's game plan. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's playing ropidope and then there's getting knocked to the

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Speaker 1: canvas twice and hoping you don't get knocked down a

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Speaker 1: third time. So we'll get some of these calls here,

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Speaker 1: we've got a bunch of lawyers calling in. Let's take well,

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Speaker 1: we got James and Jacksonville, Florida.

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Speaker 6: What's up, James, Good afternoon, sir. Just a quick comment.

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Speaker 6: I'm not smart or bright, but I was listening to

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Speaker 6: a experienced criminal defense attorney who's located in New York City.

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Speaker 6: Can I give the fellow's name or no?

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Speaker 7: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Look, what you're going to say is it's New York law.

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Speaker 4: And I think I said this that jury instructions are

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Speaker 4: not allowed to be printed off and handed to the jury.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for the call. What I'm saying is as

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Speaker 4: a warrior, that strikes me as strange, and particularly here

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Speaker 4: with fifty five pages where they're having to come back

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Speaker 4: in and ask where everybody else can see the jury instructions,

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Speaker 4: that seems like al awe in the process to me.

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Speaker 1: I also think James is being too humble. He spoke

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Speaker 1: with clarity and eloquence in his question and also listens

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Speaker 1: to this show, so I think he is a very

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Speaker 1: smart fellow. So I'm just going to put that out there.

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Speaker 1: Bernard in Louisiana is an attorney. What's up, Bernard.

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Speaker 8: I don't think there's a propect consideration of the idea

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Speaker 8: about that this hung jury. Everybody seems to think that

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Speaker 8: where Trump could get off or be so guilty, hung jury,

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Speaker 8: But I do not think that you'd ever get an acquittal.

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Speaker 8: That won't ever happen. So everybody said, well, we want

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Speaker 8: to hung jury. But the problem we're getting to hung

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Speaker 8: jury is I see the whole idea that political trial

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Speaker 8: is to keep Trump off the champaign trail. And what

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Speaker 8: they could do is immediately turn around and then set

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Speaker 8: the trial again, set the whole thing going again, bringing

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Speaker 8: back in there for tying up for several more months,

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Speaker 8: keep them off the trail.

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Speaker 4: So it's an interesting question, Bernard. I think that this

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Speaker 4: would be a great question for Andy McCarthy and a

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Speaker 4: New York procedural. I think it would be very hard

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Speaker 4: to if the verdict came down and it was a

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Speaker 4: hung jury and we get it in the next few days,

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Speaker 4: I think it would be very hard for New York

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Speaker 4: City to bring a new trial before the election. That

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Speaker 4: does I mean they couldn't try it, but I think

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Speaker 4: it would be difficult.

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Speaker 1: Also, I think it would run up against Remember this

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Speaker 1: is all being done with an eye to what it

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Speaker 1: does for the Democrat Party and Joe Biden's re election prospects.

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Speaker 1: So in my mind, you would have to have and

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Speaker 1: I know they say, oh, there are no conversations between

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Speaker 1: the Biden White House and Bribe bull crap, nobody believes

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Speaker 1: that one. Yes, I think though that there you'd have

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Speaker 1: to have after a hung jury, the decision would have

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Speaker 1: to be made to try to expedite to your point,

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Speaker 1: because it would be lightning speed that wouldn't be normal

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Speaker 1: under it. But as I've said, they sometimes have gone,

435
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, a ludicrous speed to get Trump. But Clay,

436
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: it would effectively box out the Jay sixth trial from

437
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: even being a possible from even being a possibility and

438
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: everything else. So you're gonna take your weakest trial where

439
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: you had a hung jury on time number one, you know,

440
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: a first up at bat, You're gonna do a second one,

441
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: box out all the rest of the trials. And it's

442
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: a trial that we already have seen. The public is saying, no,

443
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: I'm still for Trump. This is not I'm not changing

444
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: my mind on this one at all. That's not going

445
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: to go in the other direction after a hung jury. Right, So,

446
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: I think Bernard's question totally valid. But wow, Alvin Bragg

447
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: would be rolling the dice big time to come back

448
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: and say, no, other trials are happening, I'm bringing the

449
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: uh you know I'm bringing this because how long has

450
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,239
Speaker 1: it taken this this time or what has been six

451
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: weeks a year?

452
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 4: It took a yes, right, but it took a year

453
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 4: from when this charges were first brought to get this

454
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 4: trial underway first time. That would gives you know, defense

455
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 4: preparation time. And they would say, well, they don't need

456
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: more preparation time. I just mean you're talking about at

457
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 4: least six weeks they would. You know, there'd be some

458
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 4: procedural stuff about okay, we got to see a new

459
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 4: jury and everything else. You know, is it going to

460
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 4: be like August September before you could get another verdict?

461
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 4: That means there's no way that you'd be able to

462
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 4: do anything else other than this. To his point, the

463
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 4: goal would be to keep Trump off the campaign trail again.

464
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 4: Remember they'd have to get a new judge.

465
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 3: They I just I don't know this.

466
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: Maybe Trump doesn't need to be on the campaign trail.

467
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: This is the other Look at the numbers, everybody, let's

468
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: take this into account. Let's stop for a minute, put

469
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: aside the shenanigans.

470
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: Where not.

471
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: We can't relitigate the shenanigans because you know that's going

472
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: to waste our time at this point. Did Biden campaign

473
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, No, he did not right. He did

474
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: not really in any meaningful way at all. Look at

475
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: the numbers. Trump is not only able to dominate the

476
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: media narrative from his trial, he has rallies and they're

477
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: smashing successes, including the one of the Bronxs where they said,

478
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, he got all these people to show

479
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: up and all these minorities to show up and they

480
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: love Trump. So I you know, don't leave out the

481
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: possibility that they're making a blunder on top of another blunder,

482
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: which would be not only is bringing these cases going

483
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: to destroy Trump politically, Clay bringing the cases and keeping

484
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: him off the campaign trail will make sure that he

485
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: can't win. So far, the numbers do not agree with that.

486
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 4: If anybody in New York has the data, this would

487
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 4: be a great question. Just building off what Bernard in Louisiana,

488
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 4: who is an attorney and just called in and talked

489
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 4: about the idea of a second trial. Again, we're waiting

490
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 4: to see what happened to the first trial first, but

491
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 4: in the event there's a hung jury. I've never heard

492
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 4: of a second trial happening within a couple of months

493
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: of the first trial ever in any place. First of all,

494
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 4: a lot of times when you get a hung jury,

495
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 4: the prosecutor decides, Okay, we may not bring this case.

496
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 4: There's a flaw in the case, which is why we

497
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 4: got a hung jury. To Bernard's point, well, they want

498
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 4: to get Trump, Okay, the idea that they could get

499
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 4: another trial happening before November is seems unlikely to me.

500
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 4: Plus to bucks point, then if they have this hail

501
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 4: Mary idea that they're going to get something going with

502
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 4: Jack Smith and we still have to wait on the

503
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: Supreme Court decision on Trump immunity, which probably is going

504
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 4: to come out at some point in I think late

505
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 4: June ish, that becomes difficult. Aaron in Denver, what you got.

506
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 7: Sure where the judge can put the jury verdict to

507
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 7: the side impose his own verdict?

508
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, directed verdict that that can happen.

509
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 6: What pages of jury things that gives him fifty five

510
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 6: chances to put that off to the side and impose

511
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 6: his own will.

512
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: Well, but are you saying, like the jury comes back

513
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: and they have a hung jury and the jewy we

514
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 4: missed the very beginning of your question. Are you suggesting

515
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 4: that he would be pro or anti Trump in a

516
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 4: directed verdict?

517
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 6: Well, whatever verdict that he disagrees with comes from the jury.

518
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 4: Okay, so he couldn't He couldn't come back and say

519
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: the jury is hung Trump's guilty, right Like, that isn't

520
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: permissible under the law. A directed verdict would usually be, hey,

521
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: there's no way that a jury based on this evidence

522
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 4: could have rendered the verdict that they did.

523
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: Really a protection for the defendant. It's not supposed to be, Oh,

524
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: you guys said not guilty. Psych I say guilty. I'm

525
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: the judge, So I don't think.

526
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 6: They have done that in OJ's trial.

527
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: Comparatively speaking, because of the Rodney King factor, this.

528
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: Is you're kind of confusing things again. To Buck's point,

529
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 4: the OJ was not guilty. The judge cannot come out

530
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: and say, hey, the jury should have found you guilty.

531
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 4: That defeats the entire purpose of a jury trial. And

532
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: this is diving into the weeds a little bit. Sometimes

533
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 4: they're and this may be what you're confused by. Sometimes

534
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: there are what's called bench trials, not jury trials. In

535
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 4: as trials defense, the judge would wide weigh all the

536
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: evidence and render a verdict. That's but I think that's

537
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: kind of what you're asking you can't have the judge

538
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: come in and say, hey, not guilty, Actually he's guilty.

539
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 4: It would be a beitnefit to the defense where he

540
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 4: would say, hey, this jury trial totally out of whack.

541
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: But based on all of Merchand's rulings so far, I

542
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 4: think there's a zero percent chance that he's suddenly going

543
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: to say, oh, the defendant has been treated unfairly in

544
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 4: this case. I think he has. I think this case

545
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 4: should have never happened. I think it will be overturned

546
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 4: on appeal. But Merchand has been totally anti Trump so far,

547
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: so your question is just kind of mixing up I

548
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 4: think several different legal processes.

549
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: And the again, this is when when this is used,

550
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: and it is rare because for a judge to do that,

551
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: and that is the judge, you know, that is the

552
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: kind of thing where a judge will actually can get

553
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, heat from higher up and the appeals court

554
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: and and and you know, there can be consequences to

555
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: set aside, to set aside a jury verdict if it

556
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: looks bad, But you're setting aside a jury verdict because

557
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: there's no evidentiary basis to convict a no reasonable evidentiary

558
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: basis to convict a person. I mean, if we had it,

559
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: if we had judges who were like, oh, you're not guilty.

560
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: Actually I think you are.

561
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: The jury the jury trials would defeat the entire purpose

562
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 4: of having a jury.

563
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: Now, remember, we're.

564
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: Supposed to let many more, you know, many more guilty

565
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: people go than let one innocent person go to prison.

566
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: That's supposed to be the way we view our system.

567
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: And what I've said is if an honest judge, a

568
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 4: lot of times you'll hear this motion for a directed verdict,

569
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 4: and I'm sure the Trump team has done it and say, hey,

570
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 4: the evidence presented is not sufficient for the defendant to

571
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 4: be guilty. I actually think there is an argument for

572
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 4: a directed verdict, but that is in favor of the defense,

573
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: not coming again in favor of the prosecution. Just just

574
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 4: to that's getting in the weeds a little bit. Your

575
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 4: question is not an unintelligent one. It's just mixing several

576
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 4: different theories in a way that they wouldn't apply. We'll

577
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 4: come back, we'll take some more of your calls. By

578
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 4: the way, tons of you may have questions like these. Yeah,

579
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 4: it's it's it's an acquittal for the defendant. Just to

580
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 4: be clear everybody.

581
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: We would be in a very scary place and the

582
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: judge could just be like, you know what, I'm sending

583
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: you away. The jury didn't buy it, but I'm sending

584
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: you away.

585
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: Particularly after a hung jury when the jury actually can't

586
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 4: even come up with a conclusion that the judge then says,

587
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 4: actually you're going to jail for life. But again, there

588
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 4: are bench trials. This is a jury trial. I think

589
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: you're the callers mixing those up a little bit. But

590
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 4: this is complicated stuff.

591
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: So it's good to get good to get this clarity

592
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: out there, especially as they're trying to destroy the system.

593
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: We got to know every aspect of the system.

594
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 4: Look, Hillsdale College, I went out, you guys may remember

595
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: to Seattle recently and I spoke at their great event

596
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 4: out in Seattle, set next to doctor Larry Arne, Hillsdale

597
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 4: College's president. What a guy, I mean. I felt fortunate

598
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 4: to be sitting next to him. They have a great

599
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 4: phenomenal magazine newspaper, however you want to classify it. It's

600
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 4: print and they have over six million subscribers. And if

601
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 4: you go right now and sign up for Imprimis at

602
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 4: Clayanbuck for Hillsdale dot com. You will get the latest

603
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 4: version of Imprimis. And guess who is on the front

604
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 4: cover of the latest version of Imprimis. Your boy me.

605
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: You're listening right now. They have reprinted a excerpt of

606
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 4: the address that I gave at the Hillsdale College banquet

607
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: in Imprimis this month. Now over six and a half

608
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 4: million people are subscribed to Imprimis. I promise you will

609
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 4: enjoy reading this digest print comes to your house. It's free,

610
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 4: and you can read exactly what I said in my

611
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 4: speech at the Hillsdale College event in Seattle. I think

612
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: you'll enjoy it. Why not check it out? Clayandbuckfoor Hillsdale

613
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: dot com. Again the address that I gave phenomenal university.

614
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: You should be getting all your kids to apply if

615
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 4: you got kids and grandkids and you want them to

616
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: actually get a classic education. Love doctor arn. You can

617
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 4: read exactly what I said at clayanbuckfo Hillsdale dot com.

618
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 4: Sign up for in Primus today. That's Clayanbuck for Hillsdale

619
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 4: dot com.

620
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: You know them as conservative radio hosts, now just get

621
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 5: to know them as guys. On the Sunday Hang Podcast

622
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 5: with Clay and Buck find it in their podcast feed

623
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 5: on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

624
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 4: Welcome back in to Clay Travis buck Sexton show.

625
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: I can't lie. Every time I click.

626
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: Refresh and there's anything, Buck that people are talking about

627
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: other than the Trump trial or the Trump verdict, I'm like,

628
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: get off my feed. I got to make sure that

629
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: this is the most important thing that's going on right now,

630
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 4: and every hour that goes by, I think is a

631
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 4: little bit better for Trump. We got another call that's interesting,

632
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 4: by the way. Just load us up today because this

633
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: is the.

634
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: Number one story.

635
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 4: We're going to be talking about a lot, as we

636
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 4: always do, but we can take your calls and be

637
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 4: talking about this Trump jury verdict. I think, Buck, this

638
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 4: is not unlike the OJ verdict for those of us

639
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 4: who are old enough to remember it back in I

640
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 4: believe nineteen ninety five, when everything when there is a

641
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 4: verdict now, there won't be cameras in the courtroom, but

642
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: everything will immediately go to this.

643
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: And I know there have been other.

644
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 4: Cases, the Casey Anthony case, the Johnny Depp case that

645
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 4: have captivated the American public. I don't think anything like

646
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: this in terms of significance has ever occurred, and everybody

647
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 4: is sort of paying attention to this on tenter hooks

648
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 4: to wait and see what exactly is is going to happen.

649
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 4: I agree, Alan in Monrovia, California, got a question for us,

650
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 4: which got.

651
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 7: Hi, guys, Alvin Bragg has charged Trump with thirty four counts.

652
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Speaker 7: Does the jury have to go one by one and

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Speaker 7: address whether count one guilty or not guilty? Count too guilty?

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Speaker 3: Get I get your point.

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Speaker 4: They're all that they they do have to make that decision,

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Speaker 4: but they're all the same crime, So you couldn't be

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Speaker 4: you made I would be stunned if you disagree, Buck,

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Speaker 4: But you're either guilty of all thirty four or none.

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Speaker 3: Right there. This isn't a split verdict possibility.

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Speaker 1: It is, as I said, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: situation where he has taken a single alleged act and

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Speaker 1: then found a way to pilot on top of itself

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Speaker 1: thirty four times. So it is as though you know

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Speaker 1: somebody was smoking weed on the street, and instead of

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Speaker 1: charging them simple possession, you say they passed the marijuana

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Speaker 1: cigarette back and forth between two guys twenty times. That's

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Speaker 1: twenty separate acts. Of possession. So now we're going to

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Speaker 1: get him on trafficking or something. It's insane. What he's

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Speaker 1: doing is insane. It's a breach of prosecutorial ethics. But

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Speaker 1: guess what, there are no ethics to any of this.

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Speaker 1: This is raw communist street politics. That is what you

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Speaker 1: are seeing in New York City. Don't ever forget it.

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Speaker 1: That's why I'm so cynical about the outcome. But it's

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Speaker 1: also why Clay is here to bring a note of

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Speaker 1: optimism and tell you the system is not dead.

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Speaker 4: So I'm cautiously optimistic that we have a patriot on

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Speaker 4: that jury. The longer it goes on, the more my

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Speaker 4: optimism grows. Keep ticket block