WEBVTT - #002 Jason Flom with Fernando Bermudez 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.240 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:10.920 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:12.200 day of my high school year. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:14.680 I was going to be a senior. At twenty two, 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.759 I was set to start college. I woke up and 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.040 my life was never the same again. Cops came out 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.759 with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever since 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.840 after that. It's like groach mode, Tom, once you get 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:29.440 in and I can't mount. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.520 I'm Jason Flomm Today we'll be talking for Nando Bermudez, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.200 a young man sent away for the rest of his life, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.200 for the rest of him, and they sew away the keys. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:40.320 They never did another bit. 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.479 Of investigation accusations of police. In nineteen ninety one, for 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:45.920 Nando Bermudez was arrested for the murder of a sixteen 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.159 year old boy in Greenwich Village, even though he was 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.520 five miles away with his friends that had multiple alum 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.080 by witnesses who placed him far away from the scene 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:53.560 of the crime. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.520 A young lady said that I looked cute, and that 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.920 was enough for her to share the pictures and for 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.960 the witnesses to communally agree that I resemble the perpetrator. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.520 He was convicted anyway, and since the twenty three years 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:08.920 to life in maximum security prisons in New York State, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:36.160 this is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm Fernanda, Welcome to 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:36.560 the show. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:38.000 Thank you Jason for having me. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:40.840 So I want to talk to you about what your 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:45.160 life was like, what happened, what went wrong, what you 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.720 learn from it, and where you're at now. So let's 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.160 go back to nineteen ninety one. Major cities in the 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.040 nation are under attack from within. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.960 Nowhere are the problems more visible than in New York City. 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.960 Bob Fall reports New York has gotten so mean and 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.960 so dangerous. The mayor actually went to church yesterday and 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.320 pleaded with residents to come out from behind locked doors. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.760 What nineteen ninety one was a year where New York 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.560 City was crime ridden. The homicide rates were on average 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.840 two thousand per year, and it was a time where 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.160 I think the city was transitioning into a intention to 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.880 get tough on crime. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:27.840 I lived in New York my whole life, and so 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.080 I remember the only thing growing faster than the crime 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.840 rate was the hysteria over the crime rate, right. I mean, 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.280 it wasn't like everybody was getting killed or mugged or 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.120 but it seemed like it at the time. So but 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:40.800 how were you doing back then? What were you Were 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.840 you in high school college at the time, what was 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:45.919 your family situation? Where'd you live? 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.959 I lived in Washington Heights, a predominantly Dominican neighborhood, mixed 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.280 with a lot of immigrants who had moved to the 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.080 other side of Upper Manhattan. And yet there was certainly 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.000 a commingling of ethnic groups and so forth. But for myself, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.320 I was twenty two year old, twenty two year olds 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.160 at the time, and I was a happy person growing 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.400 up in a close knit family, four siblings, two parents 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.840 who worked hard to achieve the American dream as Dominican 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.080 immigrants in coming to this country. And at twenty two 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:18.480 I was set to start college. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.239 So let's talk about the night that your life took 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.200 such a terrible turn. Let's talk about the crime itself, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.800 and then where you were and how you got mixed 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.320 up in this nightmare. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.600 Well, the crime itself, according to documented evidence, is that 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.960 there was a shooting at a nightclub, the mock Ballroom, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.400 in the Greenwich Village section right the mock Ballroom, Misser, 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.000 and it was near NYU. And so this kid named 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.640 e From Lopez, sixteen, who had have sconded it from 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.280 a work release program, had gotten punched by another guy 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:50.600 named Raymond. 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.320 Blount inside the club. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:57.000 Inside the club outside from Lopez had wanted revenge after 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.400 telling his friend from the West nineties neighborhood who had 0:03:59.440 --> 0:03:59.880 punched him. 0:03:59.920 --> 0:04:05.600 So there's two different groups of kids, yes, and they 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:07.240 wanted to start something. 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.760 Yeah, Lopez had been punched, so he was embarrassed and 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.240 wanted revenge, and so he told his friends from the 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.679 West nineties neighborhood not only inside that he had gotten punched, 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.240 but also outside he identified the person who had punched him. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:25.760 So I'm lay ensued in which Raymond Blount's friends were 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.719 attacked by From Lopez's friends and his group from the 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:34.159 West nineties. And in that confusion, under nighttime conditions conducive 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:39.039 to a mistaken that Whinnes's identification, Raymond Blunt was shot. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.320 And killed and killed, right, And so what happens next, 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.200 So now we have a murder, it's near NYU. That 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.000 that puts a lot of pressure on the cops. Right, 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.680 So you're where were you at the time of this? 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.440 So at the time I'm actually uptown, meaning where I lived. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.159 Did you have alibi witnesses? 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.239 Yes, absolutely, And that's definitely part of the story because 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.719 we were together driving throughout the city in a car 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.560 that I had just newly acquired. It was like that 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.839 same day, August third and fourth, I had just gotten 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.960 that car and it was sort of like a gift. Well, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:11.440 it was a big day, not just that the car 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.320 was out for the first time, but also that was 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:14.479 the car that I was going to use to go 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.160 to college, to drive to for my home, which was 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:18.600 right across in the Bronx where I was going to 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.800 go to college, And we were driving around and enjoying ourselves, 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.800 oblivious to anything that had happened. And at the time 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.719 when the actual crime occurred, we were uptown in my neighborhood, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:30.400 driving around. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.880 And so when did you first come in contact with 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.440 the authorities? How did that happen? 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.200 August sixth, nineteen ninety one. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.400 So this is a couple of weeks, two days, two days. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.080 Right after the murder, and I'm driving home. I'm with 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.960 my brother and we had actually met two young ladies 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:53.360 that night. It was another you know, good moment, and 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.000 we was driving home when suddenly cops came out with 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.120 guns drawn and pointed them at the window, and everyone just. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.720 Screamed, you were in a traffic light. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.960 No, we were in front of my home. We drove. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.040 The cops had been waiting for me. They had been 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:12.200 upstairs speaking to my mother and my siblings. When my 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.160 mother said that I should be coming home shortly, they 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.200 positioned themselves outside. So when we came out, they chew 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.039 their guns and told me to get out the car. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.760 And I never saw freedom ever since after that. 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:28.320 So obviously you're twenty two and you're scared out of 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.960 your mind and they take you in, they tell you've 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:32.800 been charged with murder. Is that right? 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.960 That's correct. I was taken to the sixth Precinct and 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.360 and it's interesting because I was so scared. Everyone was 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.320 so scared. I just got out. I complied, and I 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.200 got in the car. And then when they took me away, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.640 the girl was saying, I thought you were a nice guy, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.720 and I said, I screamed back, I said, I am 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.040 you know, And I was taken to the precinct. I 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.840 was interrogated for over ten hours, and they want to 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.120 know my whereabouts on the night of August thirty fourth, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.000 nineteen ninety one. I told them, I told them who 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.360 I was with. I told them that on no circumstances 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:03.960 I was involved in any violence. I told him what 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:04.640 I was wearing. 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.640 Ten hours. That's a tough I mean, that's a long 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.680 time to be interrogated. So did you did they get 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:12.840 you to confess? No? 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.120 I didn't confess. For me, it was surreal experience. I 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.040 just felt that if I told the truth that it 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.720 would be resolved. If I was just patient, that it 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.080 would be resolved. All I needed to do was remember 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:25.800 why I was, what I did, who I was with, 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:27.760 and it would be resolved. And well. 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:29.600 And that's interesting to hear you say that, Prenda, because 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.280 there's a lot of distrust among the Latino community of 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.000 police nationally. I think the figure sixty nine percent of 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.280 Latinos will actually even call the police if they're a 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.160 victim of a crime or if they witness a crime, 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.320 because there is that distrust. But you felt differently. You 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:48.880 felt that the police were on your side and that 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.000 if you were truthful, that everything would work out all right. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.400 Well. Absolutely, cops for me at that point were heroes 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.960 to me. I mean, I had gotten It's an interesting anecdote. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.200 When I was about maybe ten years old, I had 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.760 found stolen car and we went to the thirty fourth Precinct, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.880 our local neighborhood, and the cops gave me a bag 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.000 of jelly beans and put the cop had on me, 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.240 and they said, good job for finding my cops. I mean, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.200 my father's a stolen car. So I admired them, and 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:15.760 plus they were protecting my community. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.960 As a ten year old, that's a big moment Indy's life. Yeah, 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.840 you helped out your dad, you found, you solved the crime, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.360 and the cops are giving you big props. I'm not 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.280 surprised then that you had some You had a lot 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.080 of faith in the system. What happens next? 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.160 So because I refused to confess, I was taken to 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.400 the Manhattan Tombs Central Booking in other words, and that 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.800 was processed, that was arranged. I pled not guilty, and 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.480 from then on, hours later I was sent to Rikers Island, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.439 where my nightmare really began in Earnest. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.160 So you're in Rikers Island now your nightmare is fully underway. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:53.960 I mean, this is I think this is everyone's nightmare. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.520 Solutely, I had to go into survival mode. Because all 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.120 around me, I mean people were fighting over the phone 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.240 to make phone calls. I mean the phones were racially divided, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.960 two phones, one Latino and one Black, and those anyone 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.000 who crossed those lines so use those phones will be 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.320 cut in the face, smashed in the face with a phone. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.920 These are things I actually saw, and it was black 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.839 market operations. They were burgeoning gangs and what would become 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.880 groups like Latin Kings and stuff like that, and I 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.360 was terrified. I just try to mind my business and 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.319 all along. In my heart, I still felt that the 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.200 American criminal just system would prevail if I stayed patient. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.680 Was there bail said? In your case? 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:32.199 No bail? 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.080 So you had no hope of getting out it before 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:35.800 your trial? How long did it take you to get 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:36.160 the trial? 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.120 My trial took about seven months to get on the way. 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.920 So you're locked up for seven months, taken away from 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.760 your family, taken away from your life, put into this 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.959 devastating circumstance was what was Let's just talk about the 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.600 jail for a minute. Rikers Island is technically passified as 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.280 a jail even though but people don't understand that many 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.640 jails like Rikers are actually more dangerous than maxims prisons. 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.240 So in those seven months, what you know what went 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.240 through your mind? 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.080 Sure, well I was there over a year, but it 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.080 took seven months to get to my trial. And you know, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.720 during the whole year and change that I was there, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.960 I mean, I was deeply affected by just seeing the 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.400 violence perpetuated by not just inmates on inmates, but correctional 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.880 officers attacking inmates, and even inmates attacking correctional officers. When 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:33.320 you see someone get stabbed with sewing machine efficiency, you 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.800 know there's something in you that dies and yet lives. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.040 It affects your psyche in a way that you're never 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.800 the same because you see another human being injured in 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.640 a way that just makes an impression, a bad impression 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:47.120 in your. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.880 Life, and there's nothing you can do about it. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.760 There's nothing you can do about it, even if it 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.640 happens to be someone that you knew and even shared 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.080 a meal with for some reason. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.680 Were you when you went in, would you consider yourself 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.760 a tough guy? Were you a guy who could handle 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.640 himself in a fight. Were you what was your I mean, 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.520 Fernando as a guy who keeps himself in very good shape. 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.200 But I don't know you back then. I've known you 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.440 now for six or seven years, so yeah, I mean, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.360 how were were you equipped to deal with this situation anyway? 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:19.280 Well, mentally, I wasn't equipped. Physically, perhaps I had a 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.720 better fighting chance than a more scronier person. I mean 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.000 I was a bodybuilder at the time, and that's what 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.120 would make also the distinction in this case in terms 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.360 of the identification procedure and why they even made me 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:33.720 sit down. They described the perpetrator by the witnesses themselves. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.679 The perpetrator was described as five ten, one hundred and 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.160 sixty five pounds. I'm six two, weighing two twenty and 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:40.600 so they made me sit down in the line up 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.760 to hide the identification procedure. But for me, it was 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.360 a matter of just trying to adjust because you couldn't 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.360 even have a fair fight without getting jumped. That's what 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.080 happened to me when I was attacked. I was trying 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.360 to defend myself against someone in one instance, and then 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.559 his friends came and attacked me. I had no I 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:56.959 couldn't fight three guys. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.720 And what happened then, were you Well. 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.400 They went into my locker and stole my food and 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.480 the soap and deodorant that my parents brought me. 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.400 But were you badly beating up at the time. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.040 I wasn't that badly beating up, but I was very embarrassed. 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.120 And you know, it was a turning point because I 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:13.720 was at a point where I was waiting for my 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.319 trial to occur. I'm waiting for the American criminal just 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.680 system to work in my case, and I'm being patient, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.640 and this is something that really tries your patient. And 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.720 when once the Latino groups saw what had happened to me, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.760 someone tried to pass me a razor and they said, yo, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.360 you could resolve it this way, and I declined because 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.520 I want to go home. If I stab or hurt 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.800 someone even worse, I could end up in prison even longer. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.720 Yeah, I mean you were already facing a very long 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:41.920 sentence and you knew it at the time, right. So, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.000 And it's interesting too, the eyewitness identification. I just want 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:47.560 to touch on that for a minute, because there are 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.240 a lot of tricks that they play, right, and we 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.080 know that eyewitness identification is a factor in seventy five 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.280 percent of the DNA exonerations that have happened nationwide. So 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.480 there's a lot of movement now on the Innis's project, 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.360 the Spearhead and as along with some other groups to 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:06.360 reform how I wouldn't identifications are done everything from videotaping 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.960 to other procedures what we call a double blind. But 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.200 in your case, they obviously just wanted to get you, 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.280 and they were willing to do some dirty tricks in 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.600 order to get a conviction, so they weren't really interested 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:21.560 in the truth. Is that fair to say that's correct? 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:26.120 I mean, as proven the witnesses were placed in a room, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.600 these teenage witnesses at that who have been beaten, who 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.880 were hungry, who were tired, who were joking around, who 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.520 by their own accounts did not want to be there, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.200 and they were placed in a room and allowed to 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:40.640 just shift through pictures, and three friends of deceased who 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.280 were in a separate identification procedure, correctly identified who would 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.200 become the state star witness, and the four of the 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.720 witnesses who were in another room selecting pictures, then selected 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.760 my picture, and a seventeen year old young lady said 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.920 that I looked cute, and that was enough for her 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.239 to share the pictures and for the witnesses to communally 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.840 agree that I resembled the perpetrator and that was enough. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.080 They looked at the pictures together. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:06.559 Yes, which is illegal. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:07.560 Of course it's illegal. 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:09.439 It's one of the reasons I got readed. 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.079 Oh my god, that's it. That's I've heard a lot, 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.320 but I hadn't heard that particular story before, you know, 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.320 having having you know, been being that I'm familiar with 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.960 so many of these cases. But that's that's just straight crazy. 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.440 So there you are, you're you're stuck there and you 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:30.080 go to trial and and you were you were represented 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.520 by a public defender at the time. You weren't a 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:33.400 wealthy guy, right. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.520 I wasn't a wealthy guy. But my parents, uh got 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.960 scared and they hired a private attorney based upon word 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.360 of mouth, particularly because he spoke Spanish and he had 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.200 a son named Fernando. Okay, so that was like for 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.800 them for some reason that if he had like a 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.080 sign like you know, and so they hired him. And 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.200 you know, he was hoodwinked from the start in that 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.400 the prosecutor didn't turn over excopolatory evidence, and when he 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.440 did turn over boxes of evidence, it was after my 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:03.560 jury was selected. 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.239 So this is where so he had no time, no time. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.680 Even when he asked he was not allowed. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.520 Right, And we know that the Supreme Court ruled in 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.200 Brady that they have to turn over exculpatory evidence, but 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.920 it seems like it's almost routinely ignored by prosecutors, which 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.000 is shocking. Should be shocking to everyone in America, right, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 I mean, everyone who watches TV, watches crime shows, knows 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.360 that that's the responsibility of the prosecutor. And most people, 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.880 i think, believe that the prosecutor wants to get the 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.840 right guy and would want to get the right guy 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.880 because who would want the wrong guy to still be 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.080 out there? Right? That's always crazy to be for Nanda 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.360 that when you aside from the human tragedy of locking 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.440 up the wrong person, the idea that the real perpetrator 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.000 is out there and is going in many cases, in 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.360 almost all cases, he's going to commit more mayhem, be 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.760 responsible for more mayhem and hurt other people should be 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.520 enough motivation in itself for law enforcement to want to 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.320 do the right thing. But obviously in your case that 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.720 was not the case. I'm sure these guys were feeling 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.720 a lot of pressure, so much crime, so many cases 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.320 they deal with, they want to get it off their desk. 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:12.479 You were victimized by that mentality and that lack of morality. 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.960 I would say, as well, So now you're at trial, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.600 you have your alibi. Witnesses there were they called to 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:20.040 the stand. 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.240 Yes, matter by witnesses came forward. I testified, and even 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.880 three friends of deceased came forward and said that I 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:27.480 wasn't the guy who shot their best friend. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.280 And so then people are listening, They're going, well, wait 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.760 a minute, shouldn't that be enough, wouldn't that be the 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:35.440 case closed? No? 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.600 Well that's what I thought, That's what I had hoped. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.760 But what the jury didn't know, and I didn't even 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:46.360 know until the investigation unraveled on my behalf, was that, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.960 for example, from Lopez, the state start witness sixteen years old, 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.040 who knew the actual perpetrator had told the police and 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.200 prosecutors who actually committed the crime, but they suppressed that 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.840 evidence and where he could be found. In exchange for 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.040 his false testimony, he named me as someone I totally 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.040 was not, and the police still did not go investigate 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.400 the neighborhood. He got, after over twenty hours of interrogation, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.639 an opportunity to escape from murder charges, and the witnesses 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.800 the teenage witnesses as well. In addition, who didn't know 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.600 it from Lopez, but who did say that it was him. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.840 They got that that part right. They had gotten charges 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.280 dismissed on the eve of their trial, who had unrelated 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.720 criminal charges pending it which were dismissed right before my 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:33.399 trial began. 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.160 So it's amazing that prosecutors have this much power, right. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.000 The fact is that people think that the judge has 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.280 a lot of power, or that the police or the 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.520 defenders have power. The fact is that an overwhelming amount 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.600 of the power rests with the prosecutors, because they can 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.439 decide whether to prosecute or drop charges against anyone for 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.040 any reason. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:56.080 Is that right, yes, sir. 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:01.439 So it's interesting because we know everyone who follows is 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.480 even aware of anything to do with criminal justice, knows 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.399 that you can't bribe a witness, right, But yet the 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.560 state is able to offer the best bribe that there is, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.000 which is that, hey, you got a lot of trouble 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.720 on your hands, kid, right, you're facing a murder charge 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.640 or you're facing assault or other things, and you know what, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.399 we're just going to ask you to do us a 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.680 little favor here, you know, tell us what we need 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.520 to hear, and you could go home and we're going 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.760 to clean it up and keep it moving, right, I mean, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.399 what could be better than that? And I think that 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.520 a lot of people would have trouble resisting that if 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.680 they're looking at a long period in prison, a long 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.040 many many years they're facing, they're scared too, and they 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.120 want to go home, and they go, well, I don't 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.280 even know this guy, Fernando, but you know what, screw him, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.760 you know. So I think that's something that's important for 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.000 people to understand. People who are going to be serving 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.600 on juries, people who are involved in the system in 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.960 any way, I think they need to know that well absolutely. 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.480 And it's also how the system sets up the vulnerability 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.440 of this case. Teenage witnesses, you know, who haven't even 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.920 had their prefrontal cortex meant for good judgment even fully developed. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.960 In my case, for example, two of the witnesses, one 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.320 of whom had one of the charges dismissed, told the 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.480 prosecutor they didn't want to come testified, they didn't believe 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.280 I was the guy. And yet they were arrested, physically 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.359 taken from their home as material witnesses. 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.159 That doesn't sound kosher either. I mean, there's just so 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.040 it was really a series of mistakes that read to 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.760 you that led to your both both deliberate and and 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.040 and accidental, but mostly deliberate. Right, Yes, so you're now 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.640 you get convicted. The moment of that, the jury coming 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.400 back in, I can't imagine the pressure, but you're you're 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.720 standing there, You're still hoping that this is going to 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.760 be you know, the system's going to work, and you're 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.240 going to go home and try to forget this whole thing. 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.919