1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: day of my high school year. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: I was going to be a senior. At twenty two, 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: I was set to start college. I woke up and 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: my life was never the same again. Cops came out 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever since 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: after that. It's like groach mode, Tom, once you get 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: in and I can't mount. 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 3: I'm Jason Flomm Today we'll be talking for Nando Bermudez, 11 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 3: a young man sent away for the rest of his life, 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 3: for the rest of him, and they sew away the keys. 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: They never did another bit. 14 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 3: Of investigation accusations of police. In nineteen ninety one, for 15 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: Nando Bermudez was arrested for the murder of a sixteen 16 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: year old boy in Greenwich Village, even though he was 17 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 3: five miles away with his friends that had multiple alum 18 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: by witnesses who placed him far away from the scene 19 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: of the crime. 20 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: A young lady said that I looked cute, and that 21 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: was enough for her to share the pictures and for 22 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: the witnesses to communally agree that I resemble the perpetrator. 23 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 3: He was convicted anyway, and since the twenty three years 24 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 3: to life in maximum security prisons in New York State, 25 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: this is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm Fernanda, Welcome to 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 3: the show. 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Thank you Jason for having me. 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: So I want to talk to you about what your 29 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: life was like, what happened, what went wrong, what you 30 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: learn from it, and where you're at now. So let's 31 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: go back to nineteen ninety one. Major cities in the 32 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: nation are under attack from within. 33 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: Nowhere are the problems more visible than in New York City. 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: Bob Fall reports New York has gotten so mean and 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: so dangerous. The mayor actually went to church yesterday and 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: pleaded with residents to come out from behind locked doors. 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: What nineteen ninety one was a year where New York 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: City was crime ridden. The homicide rates were on average 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: two thousand per year, and it was a time where 40 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: I think the city was transitioning into a intention to 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: get tough on crime. 42 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: I lived in New York my whole life, and so 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 3: I remember the only thing growing faster than the crime 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: rate was the hysteria over the crime rate, right. I mean, 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't like everybody was getting killed or mugged or 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: but it seemed like it at the time. So but 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 3: how were you doing back then? What were you Were 48 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: you in high school college at the time, what was 49 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 3: your family situation? Where'd you live? 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: I lived in Washington Heights, a predominantly Dominican neighborhood, mixed 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: with a lot of immigrants who had moved to the 52 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: other side of Upper Manhattan. And yet there was certainly 53 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: a commingling of ethnic groups and so forth. But for myself, 54 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: I was twenty two year old, twenty two year olds 55 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: at the time, and I was a happy person growing 56 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: up in a close knit family, four siblings, two parents 57 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: who worked hard to achieve the American dream as Dominican 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: immigrants in coming to this country. And at twenty two 59 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: I was set to start college. 60 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 3: So let's talk about the night that your life took 61 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: such a terrible turn. Let's talk about the crime itself, 62 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: and then where you were and how you got mixed 63 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: up in this nightmare. 64 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: Well, the crime itself, according to documented evidence, is that 65 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: there was a shooting at a nightclub, the mock Ballroom, 66 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: in the Greenwich Village section right the mock Ballroom, Misser, 67 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: and it was near NYU. And so this kid named 68 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: e From Lopez, sixteen, who had have sconded it from 69 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: a work release program, had gotten punched by another guy 70 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: named Raymond. 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: Blount inside the club. 72 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: Inside the club outside from Lopez had wanted revenge after 73 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: telling his friend from the West nineties neighborhood who had 74 00:03:59,440 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: punched him. 75 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: So there's two different groups of kids, yes, and they 76 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: wanted to start something. 77 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lopez had been punched, so he was embarrassed and 78 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: wanted revenge, and so he told his friends from the 79 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 1: West nineties neighborhood not only inside that he had gotten punched, 80 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: but also outside he identified the person who had punched him. 81 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: So I'm lay ensued in which Raymond Blount's friends were 82 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: attacked by From Lopez's friends and his group from the 83 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: West nineties. And in that confusion, under nighttime conditions conducive 84 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: to a mistaken that Whinnes's identification, Raymond Blunt was shot. 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: And killed and killed, right, And so what happens next, 86 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: So now we have a murder, it's near NYU. That 87 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 3: that puts a lot of pressure on the cops. Right, 88 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: So you're where were you at the time of this? 89 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: So at the time I'm actually uptown, meaning where I lived. 90 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: Did you have alibi witnesses? 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And that's definitely part of the story because 92 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: we were together driving throughout the city in a car 93 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: that I had just newly acquired. It was like that 94 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: same day, August third and fourth, I had just gotten 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: that car and it was sort of like a gift. Well, 96 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: it was a big day, not just that the car 97 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: was out for the first time, but also that was 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: the car that I was going to use to go 99 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: to college, to drive to for my home, which was 100 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: right across in the Bronx where I was going to 101 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: go to college, And we were driving around and enjoying ourselves, 102 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: oblivious to anything that had happened. And at the time 103 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: when the actual crime occurred, we were uptown in my neighborhood, 104 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: driving around. 105 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: And so when did you first come in contact with 106 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: the authorities? How did that happen? 107 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: August sixth, nineteen ninety one. 108 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: So this is a couple of weeks, two days, two days. 109 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: Right after the murder, and I'm driving home. I'm with 110 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: my brother and we had actually met two young ladies 111 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: that night. It was another you know, good moment, and 112 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: we was driving home when suddenly cops came out with 113 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: guns drawn and pointed them at the window, and everyone just. 114 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 3: Screamed, you were in a traffic light. 115 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: No, we were in front of my home. We drove. 116 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: The cops had been waiting for me. They had been 117 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: upstairs speaking to my mother and my siblings. When my 118 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: mother said that I should be coming home shortly, they 119 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: positioned themselves outside. So when we came out, they chew 120 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: their guns and told me to get out the car. 121 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: And I never saw freedom ever since after that. 122 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: So obviously you're twenty two and you're scared out of 123 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: your mind and they take you in, they tell you've 124 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 3: been charged with murder. Is that right? 125 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: That's correct. I was taken to the sixth Precinct and 126 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: and it's interesting because I was so scared. Everyone was 127 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: so scared. I just got out. I complied, and I 128 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: got in the car. And then when they took me away, 129 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: the girl was saying, I thought you were a nice guy, 130 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: and I said, I screamed back, I said, I am 131 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, And I was taken to the precinct. I 132 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: was interrogated for over ten hours, and they want to 133 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: know my whereabouts on the night of August thirty fourth, 134 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. I told them, I told them who 135 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: I was with. I told them that on no circumstances 136 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: I was involved in any violence. I told him what 137 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: I was wearing. 138 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: Ten hours. That's a tough I mean, that's a long 139 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: time to be interrogated. So did you did they get 140 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: you to confess? No? 141 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: I didn't confess. For me, it was surreal experience. I 142 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: just felt that if I told the truth that it 143 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: would be resolved. If I was just patient, that it 144 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: would be resolved. All I needed to do was remember 145 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: why I was, what I did, who I was with, 146 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: and it would be resolved. And well. 147 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: And that's interesting to hear you say that, Prenda, because 148 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: there's a lot of distrust among the Latino community of 149 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 3: police nationally. I think the figure sixty nine percent of 150 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: Latinos will actually even call the police if they're a 151 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: victim of a crime or if they witness a crime, 152 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: because there is that distrust. But you felt differently. You 153 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: felt that the police were on your side and that 154 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: if you were truthful, that everything would work out all right. 155 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: Well. Absolutely, cops for me at that point were heroes 156 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, I had gotten It's an interesting anecdote. 157 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: When I was about maybe ten years old, I had 158 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: found stolen car and we went to the thirty fourth Precinct, 159 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: our local neighborhood, and the cops gave me a bag 160 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: of jelly beans and put the cop had on me, 161 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: and they said, good job for finding my cops. I mean, 162 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: my father's a stolen car. So I admired them, and 163 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: plus they were protecting my community. 164 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: As a ten year old, that's a big moment Indy's life. Yeah, 165 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: you helped out your dad, you found, you solved the crime, 166 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: and the cops are giving you big props. I'm not 167 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: surprised then that you had some You had a lot 168 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: of faith in the system. What happens next? 169 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: So because I refused to confess, I was taken to 170 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Tombs Central Booking in other words, and that 171 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: was processed, that was arranged. I pled not guilty, and 172 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: from then on, hours later I was sent to Rikers Island, 173 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: where my nightmare really began in Earnest. 174 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: So you're in Rikers Island now your nightmare is fully underway. 175 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 3: I mean, this is I think this is everyone's nightmare. 176 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: Solutely, I had to go into survival mode. Because all 177 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: around me, I mean people were fighting over the phone 178 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: to make phone calls. I mean the phones were racially divided, 179 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: two phones, one Latino and one Black, and those anyone 180 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: who crossed those lines so use those phones will be 181 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: cut in the face, smashed in the face with a phone. 182 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: These are things I actually saw, and it was black 183 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: market operations. They were burgeoning gangs and what would become 184 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: groups like Latin Kings and stuff like that, and I 185 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: was terrified. I just try to mind my business and 186 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: all along. In my heart, I still felt that the 187 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: American criminal just system would prevail if I stayed patient. 188 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 3: Was there bail said? In your case? 189 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: No bail? 190 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 3: So you had no hope of getting out it before 191 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: your trial? How long did it take you to get 192 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: the trial? 193 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: My trial took about seven months to get on the way. 194 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 3: So you're locked up for seven months, taken away from 195 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: your family, taken away from your life, put into this 196 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: devastating circumstance was what was Let's just talk about the 197 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: jail for a minute. Rikers Island is technically passified as 198 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: a jail even though but people don't understand that many 199 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: jails like Rikers are actually more dangerous than maxims prisons. 200 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: So in those seven months, what you know what went 201 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: through your mind? 202 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: Sure, well I was there over a year, but it 203 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: took seven months to get to my trial. And you know, 204 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: during the whole year and change that I was there, 205 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I was deeply affected by just seeing the 206 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: violence perpetuated by not just inmates on inmates, but correctional 207 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: officers attacking inmates, and even inmates attacking correctional officers. When 208 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: you see someone get stabbed with sewing machine efficiency, you 209 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: know there's something in you that dies and yet lives. 210 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: It affects your psyche in a way that you're never 211 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: the same because you see another human being injured in 212 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: a way that just makes an impression, a bad impression 213 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: in your. 214 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: Life, and there's nothing you can do about it. 215 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about it, even if it 216 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: happens to be someone that you knew and even shared 217 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: a meal with for some reason. 218 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: Were you when you went in, would you consider yourself 219 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: a tough guy? Were you a guy who could handle 220 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: himself in a fight. Were you what was your I mean, 221 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: Fernando as a guy who keeps himself in very good shape. 222 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 3: But I don't know you back then. I've known you 223 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: now for six or seven years, so yeah, I mean, 224 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: how were were you equipped to deal with this situation anyway? 225 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: Well, mentally, I wasn't equipped. Physically, perhaps I had a 226 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: better fighting chance than a more scronier person. I mean 227 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: I was a bodybuilder at the time, and that's what 228 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: would make also the distinction in this case in terms 229 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: of the identification procedure and why they even made me 230 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: sit down. They described the perpetrator by the witnesses themselves. 231 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: The perpetrator was described as five ten, one hundred and 232 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: sixty five pounds. I'm six two, weighing two twenty and 233 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: so they made me sit down in the line up 234 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: to hide the identification procedure. But for me, it was 235 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: a matter of just trying to adjust because you couldn't 236 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: even have a fair fight without getting jumped. That's what 237 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: happened to me when I was attacked. I was trying 238 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: to defend myself against someone in one instance, and then 239 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: his friends came and attacked me. I had no I 240 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: couldn't fight three guys. 241 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: And what happened then, were you Well. 242 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: They went into my locker and stole my food and 243 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: the soap and deodorant that my parents brought me. 244 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: But were you badly beating up at the time. 245 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't that badly beating up, but I was very embarrassed. 246 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: And you know, it was a turning point because I 247 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: was at a point where I was waiting for my 248 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: trial to occur. I'm waiting for the American criminal just 249 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: system to work in my case, and I'm being patient, 250 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: and this is something that really tries your patient. And 251 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: when once the Latino groups saw what had happened to me, 252 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: someone tried to pass me a razor and they said, yo, 253 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: you could resolve it this way, and I declined because 254 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: I want to go home. If I stab or hurt 255 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: someone even worse, I could end up in prison even longer. 256 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you were already facing a very long 257 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: sentence and you knew it at the time, right. So, 258 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: And it's interesting too, the eyewitness identification. I just want 259 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 3: to touch on that for a minute, because there are 260 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: a lot of tricks that they play, right, and we 261 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 3: know that eyewitness identification is a factor in seventy five 262 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: percent of the DNA exonerations that have happened nationwide. So 263 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: there's a lot of movement now on the Innis's project, 264 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: the Spearhead and as along with some other groups to 265 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: reform how I wouldn't identifications are done everything from videotaping 266 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: to other procedures what we call a double blind. But 267 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 3: in your case, they obviously just wanted to get you, 268 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: and they were willing to do some dirty tricks in 269 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: order to get a conviction, so they weren't really interested 270 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: in the truth. Is that fair to say that's correct? 271 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean, as proven the witnesses were placed in a room, 272 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: these teenage witnesses at that who have been beaten, who 273 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: were hungry, who were tired, who were joking around, who 274 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: by their own accounts did not want to be there, 275 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: and they were placed in a room and allowed to 276 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: just shift through pictures, and three friends of deceased who 277 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: were in a separate identification procedure, correctly identified who would 278 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: become the state star witness, and the four of the 279 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: witnesses who were in another room selecting pictures, then selected 280 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: my picture, and a seventeen year old young lady said 281 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: that I looked cute, and that was enough for her 282 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,239 Speaker 1: to share the pictures and for the witnesses to communally 283 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: agree that I resembled the perpetrator and that was enough. 284 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 3: They looked at the pictures together. 285 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: Yes, which is illegal. 286 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 3: Of course it's illegal. 287 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I got readed. 288 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's it. That's I've heard a lot, 289 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 3: but I hadn't heard that particular story before, you know, 290 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 3: having having you know, been being that I'm familiar with 291 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: so many of these cases. But that's that's just straight crazy. 292 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: So there you are, you're you're stuck there and you 293 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: go to trial and and you were you were represented 294 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: by a public defender at the time. You weren't a 295 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: wealthy guy, right. 296 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't a wealthy guy. But my parents, uh got 297 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: scared and they hired a private attorney based upon word 298 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: of mouth, particularly because he spoke Spanish and he had 299 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: a son named Fernando. Okay, so that was like for 300 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: them for some reason that if he had like a 301 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: sign like you know, and so they hired him. And 302 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, he was hoodwinked from the start in that 303 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: the prosecutor didn't turn over excopolatory evidence, and when he 304 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: did turn over boxes of evidence, it was after my 305 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: jury was selected. 306 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,239 Speaker 3: So this is where so he had no time, no time. 307 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: Even when he asked he was not allowed. 308 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: Right, And we know that the Supreme Court ruled in 309 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: Brady that they have to turn over exculpatory evidence, but 310 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: it seems like it's almost routinely ignored by prosecutors, which 311 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: is shocking. Should be shocking to everyone in America, right, 312 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: I mean, everyone who watches TV, watches crime shows, knows 313 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: that that's the responsibility of the prosecutor. And most people, 314 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: i think, believe that the prosecutor wants to get the 315 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: right guy and would want to get the right guy 316 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: because who would want the wrong guy to still be 317 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 3: out there? Right? That's always crazy to be for Nanda 318 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: that when you aside from the human tragedy of locking 319 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: up the wrong person, the idea that the real perpetrator 320 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 3: is out there and is going in many cases, in 321 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: almost all cases, he's going to commit more mayhem, be 322 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 3: responsible for more mayhem and hurt other people should be 323 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: enough motivation in itself for law enforcement to want to 324 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: do the right thing. But obviously in your case that 325 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: was not the case. I'm sure these guys were feeling 326 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure, so much crime, so many cases 327 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: they deal with, they want to get it off their desk. 328 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,479 Speaker 3: You were victimized by that mentality and that lack of morality. 329 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 3: I would say, as well, So now you're at trial, 330 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: you have your alibi. Witnesses there were they called to 331 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: the stand. 332 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Yes, matter by witnesses came forward. I testified, and even 333 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: three friends of deceased came forward and said that I 334 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: wasn't the guy who shot their best friend. 335 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: And so then people are listening, They're going, well, wait 336 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: a minute, shouldn't that be enough, wouldn't that be the 337 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: case closed? No? 338 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: Well that's what I thought, That's what I had hoped. 339 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: But what the jury didn't know, and I didn't even 340 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: know until the investigation unraveled on my behalf, was that, 341 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: for example, from Lopez, the state start witness sixteen years old, 342 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: who knew the actual perpetrator had told the police and 343 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors who actually committed the crime, but they suppressed that 344 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: evidence and where he could be found. In exchange for 345 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: his false testimony, he named me as someone I totally 346 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: was not, and the police still did not go investigate 347 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. He got, after over twenty hours of interrogation, 348 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: an opportunity to escape from murder charges, and the witnesses 349 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: the teenage witnesses as well. In addition, who didn't know 350 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: it from Lopez, but who did say that it was him. 351 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: They got that that part right. They had gotten charges 352 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: dismissed on the eve of their trial, who had unrelated 353 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: criminal charges pending it which were dismissed right before my 354 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: trial began. 355 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: So it's amazing that prosecutors have this much power, right. 356 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: The fact is that people think that the judge has 357 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: a lot of power, or that the police or the 358 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: defenders have power. The fact is that an overwhelming amount 359 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: of the power rests with the prosecutors, because they can 360 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 3: decide whether to prosecute or drop charges against anyone for 361 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 3: any reason. 362 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: Is that right, yes, sir. 363 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 3: So it's interesting because we know everyone who follows is 364 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: even aware of anything to do with criminal justice, knows 365 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 3: that you can't bribe a witness, right, But yet the 366 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 3: state is able to offer the best bribe that there is, 367 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 3: which is that, hey, you got a lot of trouble 368 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 3: on your hands, kid, right, you're facing a murder charge 369 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 3: or you're facing assault or other things, and you know what, 370 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 3: we're just going to ask you to do us a 371 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: little favor here, you know, tell us what we need 372 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 3: to hear, and you could go home and we're going 373 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: to clean it up and keep it moving, right, I mean, 374 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 3: what could be better than that? And I think that 375 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: a lot of people would have trouble resisting that if 376 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 3: they're looking at a long period in prison, a long 377 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: many many years they're facing, they're scared too, and they 378 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 3: want to go home, and they go, well, I don't 379 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 3: even know this guy, Fernando, but you know what, screw him, 380 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: you know. So I think that's something that's important for 381 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: people to understand. People who are going to be serving 382 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: on juries, people who are involved in the system in 383 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 3: any way, I think they need to know that well absolutely. 384 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: And it's also how the system sets up the vulnerability 385 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: of this case. Teenage witnesses, you know, who haven't even 386 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: had their prefrontal cortex meant for good judgment even fully developed. 387 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: In my case, for example, two of the witnesses, one 388 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: of whom had one of the charges dismissed, told the 389 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: prosecutor they didn't want to come testified, they didn't believe 390 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: I was the guy. And yet they were arrested, physically 391 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: taken from their home as material witnesses. 392 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 3: That doesn't sound kosher either. I mean, there's just so 393 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: it was really a series of mistakes that read to 394 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: you that led to your both both deliberate and and 395 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: and accidental, but mostly deliberate. Right, Yes, so you're now 396 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 3: you get convicted. The moment of that, the jury coming 397 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 3: back in, I can't imagine the pressure, but you're you're 398 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: standing there, You're still hoping that this is going to 399 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: be you know, the system's going to work, and you're 400 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 3: going to go home and try to forget this whole thing. 401 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 3: But then they come back and they read off the verdict, 402 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 3: and then what. 403 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: And at that moment, I just had an out of 404 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: body experience because I couldn't believe that, you know, all 405 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: my hopes and dreams were shattered in the American criminal 406 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: justice system. I really had believe in the system. I 407 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: told the truth, honestly, and I was just shattered. I mean, 408 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: my mother started crying. My six year old sister at 409 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: that time fell to the floor, and you know, my grandmother, 410 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: she like nearly fainted. I couldn't turn around because the 411 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: hand of the bailiffs was shifting me now to not 412 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: being able to look at my family, but to look 413 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: directly at the jury or the judge, and I was 414 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: just I was terrified. 415 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 3: I didn't even feel like I was there. 416 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: I felt my body, but I felt myself floating away. 417 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: The nightmares now fully underway. You're in a maximum security prison. 418 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: Is it as bad as people think it is? 419 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? It is. It is. You're living in a six 420 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: by night foot cell. It's very small. I mean I 421 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: could stretch out my hands and almost touch the cell walls. 422 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: And there's two of you in there, well, there was 423 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: one at times there was throughout my years, I would 424 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: be forced to be with someone else, but in the 425 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: beginning I was by myself. They didn't have double bunking 426 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: in the beginning of my incarceration. 427 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 3: And so there you are, facing the possibility of spending 428 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: the rest of your life there. And then things took 429 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: a very interesting turn. And this is the story again, 430 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: one of the many things that makes your story so 431 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: unique and makes you such an inspiring character to me. 432 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: So your story is national news, right it became. It 433 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 3: got a lot of coverage. I mean there's a lot 434 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: of murders at this time, but your story got a 435 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: lot of coverage. 436 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: Fernando Bermudez five people testified against him, and the judge 437 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: put them away for life, but was he wrongly convicted 438 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: of murder. Fernando Bermudez had an alibi. 439 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 3: He says he was driving around with friends. 440 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: There was no physical evidence against him, no blood, no gun, 441 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: but there was no getting around those witnesses. 442 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 4: Maryanne de Berry, with the father's help, was able to 443 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 4: track down all the witnesses who testified against Fernando and 444 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: get them to admit that under pressure, they gave false testimony. 445 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 3: And so then you received a letter. Let's talk about 446 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 3: this because this is really and you wrote a lot 447 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: of letters, but this letter that came in you probably 448 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 3: remember pretty well what it said, right. 449 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: Well, absolutely. I was in my cell and I was 450 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: working out, and I just finished writing another legal letter, 451 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: because I was always writing letters to try to get help. 452 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: And a young lady wrote me. She had saw my case. 453 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: She was living in Oklahoma at the time, and she 454 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: wrote me and she says she believed in me. She 455 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: said that she wanted to pray for me. And I 456 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: was just amazed that at her persistent persistence in continuing 457 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: a relationship with me. 458 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 3: And she had to go to some trouble to find 459 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: you and gave your address on the TV show. 460 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, yes, she had to investigate. At 461 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: the time, there was no internet and things like that, 462 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: and so she had to go. She was working for 463 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: the phone company, so she had to actually call places, 464 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: and finally she called Rikers Island and they got so 465 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: fed up with her after calling so many different departments 466 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: they already had heard about her that they just scribbled 467 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: off some numbers and you know, some more information than 468 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: when she was able to see on the TV apart 469 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: from my name. And then she wrote me a letter. 470 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 3: So you get this letter, and there was no picture attached, right, So, 471 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 3: as far as you knew, could have been anybody, but 472 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: just you didn't know that was going to be the 473 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 3: woman of your dreams at the time, right, right, But 474 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: then things progressed. 475 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: That's right. She sent me a picture and she was 476 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: beautiful apart from her description, and most importantly to me 477 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: was that she brought the word of God in my life. 478 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I was at a point where I didn't 479 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: know what to believe anymore. The American criminal justice system 480 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: had failed me. I felt that God had abandoned me. 481 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: And here was this young girl speaking about God to 482 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: me and bringing about faith. You know, renewing it, and 483 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: that's what she did, and she came to visit me 484 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: and we got married. 485 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 3: You got married at the prison. 486 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: In prison, so I couldn't believe it. 487 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: Wow, that was And that's Crystal Now, Crystal is. I've 488 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 3: met Crystal several times. She's an amazing person, beautiful, has 489 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 3: such a great disposition, so positive. And then you had kids, yes, 490 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 3: while you're in prison. Yes, And your daughter was born 491 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 3: in what ninety six, ninety five. 492 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: In the early nineties, and then we had another We 493 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: had our second daughter, who was born in two thousand 494 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: and one, followed by my son in two thousand and five. 495 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: So as much as it's a blessing to have kids 496 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 3: and have another reason to live right and to be 497 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, motivated to get out of bed every day 498 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 3: when you're in this impossible situation, how difficult is that 499 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: to grow up apart from your kids And how does 500 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 3: that affect them when they're that is, you know, not 501 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 3: accessible to them. 502 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: What was extremely difficult decision for myself because first I 503 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: told Chris, I said, Chris, I said, we shouldn't get married. 504 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: You know, you really even shouldn't bother with me because 505 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm getting out. 506 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: You don't know if you're getting out, That's what I'm saying. 507 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so she was like, I have faith in 508 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: God that it's going to turn out. And then came 509 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: the decision to have kids. For me. I didn't want 510 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: to have kids because I didn't want to bring more 511 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: burdens to not only ourselves in the situation we were in. 512 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: But if I didn't get out, then the children would 513 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: essentially almost be fatherless apart from me being alive in 514 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: prison if I survived. But also I was so angry 515 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: at the system and what it did to me and 516 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: the confines and controls that I found myself in that 517 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: I said to myself, Wow, you have to do something 518 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: that means if you have a kid that can survive 519 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: if you don't. So it was that decision as well. 520 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and listen, it was a great decision because you 521 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: have a wonderful family, have three kids, right, yes, Yeah, 522 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: it's fantastic. So then let's talk about how you so 523 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 3: when things turned for the better and how you did 524 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: get out. What was the breaking to tipping point, Who 525 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 3: was it, what organization or person or combination of things 526 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 3: and others take it through when you were released. 527 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 1: Well. The foundation of my case leading to my exoneration, 528 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: upon which all the good intention and no well spoken 529 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: lawyers who fought hard for my case. The foundation begins 530 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: with Marianne de Barry, who was a former nun turned 531 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: attorney in her late forties, who began investigating my case 532 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: as early as nineteen ninety three, nineteen ninety two and 533 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: so forth. And she began investigating my case, and she 534 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: started laying the foundation of all the misconduct that occurred 535 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: and everything. And even though I was denied ten appeals, 536 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, with her help and all the different lawyers, 537 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: including Hellerstein, you know, and got rest Marianne's soul as 538 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: she passed away last year. The tipping point became around 539 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, when I had gotten help from 540 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: another attorney from Seaton Hall Law School, and she was 541 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: involved in my case, and she got what would many 542 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: prisoners would call a dream team, including lawyers from Washington, 543 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: d C. New York law firms and other people from 544 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: New Jersey as well. And she also got involved on 545 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: New York's Innocence Project, and together we all went into 546 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: court in two thousand and nine after I had rejected 547 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: a plea bargain from the District Attorney's office. So for me, 548 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: that was a turning point because I finally got to 549 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: test the evidence before a new judge in Manhattan stan 550 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And it was a moment where I felt 551 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: good because I had rejected a plea, a plea bargain 552 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: and off for plea. But I was also scared because 553 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: it meant that if I had lost this eleventh pal, 554 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: I would definitely or most likely, I should say, die 555 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: in prison. 556 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 3: Well, that's an unbelievable amount of pressure, and an Alfred plea, 557 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: for those of you who aren't aware, means that you're 558 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 3: the state basically comes to you and says you we 559 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: kind of they kind of give you like a wink, right, 560 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: like we kind of know we mess this up, but 561 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 3: we're not gonna admit that we're wrong, which means you 562 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 3: can't sue us, but we're gonna let you go home. So, 563 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 3: I mean, that's a tough decision to make, right, I mean, 564 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: as bad as you want to get out of there. 565 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's a it's sort of 566 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 3: like a I mean, it's I don't know if you 567 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: call it like a Sophie's choice. But it's a brutal 568 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 3: decision to have to make. But you made the right decision. 569 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 3: And yours was not a DNA case because it was 570 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: a shooting, so there was no physical evidence at the time. 571 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 3: There was actually no physical evidence of any kind that 572 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: connected you. 573 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: To the crime, none whatsoever. 574 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: Never was never. So you go to trial with this 575 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: dream team innocence projects, this group of dedicated individuals, and 576 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 3: now you got the full Now you got the odds 577 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: a little bit in your favor, right, it's fair to say. 578 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 3: And so you go to court. Let's let's talk about 579 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 3: the opposite experience. You're there, say, you know, different kind 580 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: of pressure, right, You've been through everything that they can 581 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: throw at you. 582 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: What happens, Well, I'm in court and I'm just like 583 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: glad that I rejected that offer because I really wanted 584 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: to get down to the matter of these witnesses coming forward. 585 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 4: And NBC News investigation shows if those witnesses are now 586 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: telling the truth, and Fernando Bermudas is the wrong man. 587 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 3: Your kids are there, wife is there. 588 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: My wife was there, and all a lot of the 589 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: past lawyers throughout the years were there as well. Mary 590 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: Anne was actually in a cave and Israel praying for me. 591 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: She went out, she was already out there, and the 592 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: hearing came and she was just there and she sent 593 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: word that she'd be praying in the cave, okay, and 594 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: so that was good. I felt confident with that. And 595 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: we were there and the EVIDENTI hearing under the leadership 596 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: of Barry Pollock from Washington, d C. It went well. 597 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: It went well. I mean, the detective, I don't know 598 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: what kind of problems he's had in his past, but 599 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: he did have, for example, past the rest for drunk 600 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: driving in which he hit two girls. He came into 601 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: the courtroom seemingly drunk. The prosecutor, who up until this 602 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: point was so smug and confident in his position about 603 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: his case against me, now was shaken, visibly shaken. They 604 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: brought in a surprise detective who they said would now 605 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: testify that he was observing the witnesses and that they 606 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: were not engaged in the illegal identification procedures, which we 607 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: already were on the verge of proving. And he couldn't 608 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: remember any details. So it's like they even made a 609 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: mistake bring him in because he couldn't remember. 610 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 3: Because everybody could see he was lying. 611 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we demonstrated the cross examination. So I was just like, wow, 612 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: all this is finally coming to the point where my 613 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: faith told me that my enemies would become my footstool. Wow, 614 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: And that's what was happening. That's what was happening. 615 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 3: And this was a judge, not a jury. 616 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: This was before a judge. And after a two week proceeding, 617 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: I waited a month because the judge says he needed 618 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: more time to make the decision. And I was like, wow, 619 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: I was stuck at Downstate Correctional facility, starving. I mean, 620 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: I was so hungry. I was actually taking rations from 621 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: the mess hall and saving it in mysell like a squirrel, 622 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: just to get through because there I was like in 623 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: between my irregular prison and rikers, waiting to be called 624 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: back to court. So it was crazy. I came back 625 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: to court and it was the big moment, this was 626 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: my eleventh appeal. I walked into the courtroom and there 627 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: was just like a hushed suffocation. All you could hear 628 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: was the whirl of recorders of television cameras, reporters furiously scribbling. 629 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: You could hear people breathing. The clock seemed to be 630 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: just ticking, so slow. You could just hear that. And 631 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: I was just like I was. I was nervous because 632 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: this was a moment. And finally, finally the judge asked 633 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: me to stand, and I stood, and my knees were shaken. 634 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: I felt a touch of global warming under my shirt. 635 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: I was just so nervous. And the judge declared me 636 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: actually innocent, and the courtroom erupted in applause. And then 637 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: the judge didn't stop there. He said that in this case, 638 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: the prosecutor, James G. Rodriguez, knew and should have known, 639 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: that he was relying upon perjured testimony, that the identification 640 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: procedures were illegal and constitutional and should not have occurred, 641 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: which a federal judge I previously ruled in my favor on, 642 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: And that the State of New York admitted that its 643 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: state start witness from Lopez had committed perjury, and he 644 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: declared me actually innocent. 645 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: Fernando Bermudez was falsely accused of murder after a fight 646 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: outside of Manhattan nightclub. He was convicted, though sent to prison, exonerated, 647 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 2: then released after nearly twenty years when a judge found 648 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: misconduct in his case. 649 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 5: This wrongful conviction was predicated upon perjury, was predicated upon manipulation, 650 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 5: was predicated upon coercion and deceit of New York City 651 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 5: District Attorney's Office and New York City Police Department. 652 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 3: And then you walked out of the court room of 653 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 3: free men. TV cameras there, yes, yes, soon after that, 654 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 3: I walked out. And that must have been like a 655 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 3: crazy mixture of emotions too. I mean, your wife is there, 656 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: You're able to hug her like a normal person, like 657 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: a man, not in any nobody overseeing you or watching 658 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: or anything else, right, But then you're out in the 659 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 3: fresh air, and like, what's going through your mind? 660 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 4: Well? 661 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: I was scared because the world had changed so much. 662 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: I mean by eighteen years, eighteen and a half years, 663 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: several presidents and governors later. I mean, now there was 664 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: the Internet. People were walking around, cell phones, Yeah, they 665 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: were walking before I went to prison. The cell phones 666 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: with the size of shoe boxes, assuming you even had one, 667 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: you know, it was very rare, you know, And now 668 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: everyone had one. People were talking to themselves on the street. 669 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: I realized it was bluetooth technology. The fashion had changed 670 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: from baggy pants to now skinny jeans. Besides that, I 671 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: was just scared because they didn't even feel like I 672 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: had permission to be outside. 673 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: I was, I was psychologically Were you worried that they 674 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 3: were going to send you back in, that this was 675 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 3: all a dream, or that there was someone was going 676 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 3: to grab you and go no, go back to your cell. Whatever. 677 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: Well, I certainly felt that this can happen again. I 678 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: felt that, but I've had trouble crossing the street. I 679 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,479 Speaker 1: got Disney in department stores because there were so many 680 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: colors and choices. 681 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 3: Like a PTSD kind of Well, then that's when I realized. 682 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: After a while, I said, well, what's wrong with me? 683 00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: Why am I waking up in the middle of the night, 684 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: getting up and feeling like I'm still in a prison 685 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: cell pacing and Crystal would tell me, you know, you 686 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: got to get back to bed. You're not in prison anymore, 687 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: you know. Walking the family dog at the point at 688 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: that time was an issue. I felt like there was 689 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: gun towers outside. I mean, it was just a lot 690 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: of stuff. So I realized after I went to psychiatric 691 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: evaluation that I have post traumatic stress disorder, and I 692 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: didn't think I would have that. 693 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 3: Well, you served, you know of the of the in 694 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: the DNA exoneration cases with homicide as the as a 695 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: crime that the average time served is thirteen years, so 696 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 3: you served, you know, significantly longer than the average one, 697 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 3: although we had a couple of recent exonerations of guys 698 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 3: who had served thirty four years, which is unbelievable, numbers 699 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 3: almost twice as long. But it affects everyone differently, and 700 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 3: it obviously is going to infect anybody to go through this. 701 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 3: So I think, you know, and it's interesting too, thinking 702 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 3: back to that scene in the courtroom. You know, the 703 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 3: odds are stacked against you when you're poor, when you're 704 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 3: Latino or of color. Right, we know that a higher 705 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 3: percentage of people of color are arrested, are prosecuted or convicted. 706 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: There's no justification for that, there's no evidence that they 707 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 3: commit crimes at a higher rate or anything else. And 708 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: so you finally got the scales of justice tipped in 709 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: your favor and you emerged to this loving family. But 710 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 3: then you still had another lawsuit to go, right, you 711 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 3: still had a case. Now you have to file a 712 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 3: suit against the city and against the state. Right, yes, 713 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 3: so that that has now been resolved, Right, the first. 714 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: One, the first one, But it took me five and 715 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: a half years. Let the rec reflect. 716 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 3: Five and a half years. So you're out with nothing 717 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 3: for five no job skills, no resume. No, I mean, 718 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: how to get a job right, It's got to be brutal. 719 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean all I had was, you know, an associate's 720 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: degree or the concentration in business and working toward my bachelor's. 721 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: And then when I got out, I had to go 722 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: to college to finish my bachelor's and I had to 723 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: take loans. There was no free ride here. I had 724 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: to go to college and out there and you know, 725 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: like most hard working young men and women do for 726 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: their lives and futures. But the thing is, I had 727 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: to deal with the psychological impact. I didn't know how 728 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: to drive anymore. I had to get a license. People 729 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: from my church closed me. They helped me get my 730 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: license back. I didn't have money to get a license 731 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: or even take driving school lessons. You know, it was funny. 732 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm forty years old and I got to learn how 733 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: to drive again. 734 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 3: No, it's interesting for you know, almost thirty five percent 735 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 3: of xonneries don't get any money right because the compensation 736 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 3: statutes are so different in every state, and in some 737 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 3: states it's impossible to get money. So it's very difficult 738 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 3: to get money. And I think people think that you 739 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 3: come out and society just opens its doors to you 740 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 3: and everything's great and you get a check and you 741 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 3: move on with your life. But five and a half 742 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 3: years with nothing, struggling on the outside, I mean I 743 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 3: knew you back then and I know what you were 744 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 3: going through. That's got to be just an another almost 745 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 3: another major challenge to get through. But you got through it. 746 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 3: I mean you persevered. I know you went and did 747 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 3: three hundred speaking engagements. We talked about that before and 748 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 3: just by cold calling, you've spoken all over the world. 749 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we've been to Japan, Italy, Germany, France, Switzerland. 750 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: We tell our story. Fine, why to transform the criminal 751 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: justice systems? 752 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 3: So, Feranda, what I wanted to ask you is what's 753 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 3: the message you want to send? 754 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Well, certainly, the problem of wrong for convictions is far reaching. 755 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: We have over seventeen hundred wrongful convictions that are just documented, 756 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: and that's just documented in America today. 757 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, seventeen hundred exonerations, I think, yeah, it's almost yes, yes, yes, 758 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 3: close to eighteen. 759 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely close to eighteen hundred exonerations. Those are just the 760 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: ones that are documented. And you know, over almost one 761 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty were released from death row, which is 762 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: horrible as well. 763 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 3: And no, that's what Brian Stevenson says. I mean, for 764 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 3: every person we've executed, we've for every nine people we've executed, 765 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 3: we've had one exonerated from death throat. And as he says, 766 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 3: and he's one of my heroes, if you had planes 767 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 3: and one out of every nine or ten planes crashed, 768 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 3: nobody would fly. You can't have this system. So anyway, 769 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, interruptors to go ahead. 770 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, So on that note, there has to be accountability. 771 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: You know, prosecutors get this immunity. We understand that we 772 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: need prosecutors, and those who do a good job, kudos 773 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: to them. But for those that don't, who fly out 774 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: the system and our constitution, then shame on them. They 775 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: should be held accountable. They have too much immunity. We 776 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: need more accountability for those who are responsible. As a 777 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: deterrent effect. 778 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 3: Law is created to deter crime across the board. 779 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: And if it doesn't deter crime or misconduct, then it 780 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: doesn't work. 781 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 3: Why is the law there above the law? Right? 782 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they shouldn't be and you know, the damage 783 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: that it causes families and the people directly affected by 784 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: they and costs of is just it's horrible. I mean, 785 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: I'm affected today. I'm still free today, but i still 786 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: feel like I'm in prison. 787 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 3: For people who want to help, what can they do? 788 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 3: Should they go online? Should they write letters? Should they donate? Well? 789 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: I think that public needs to connect with their politicians 790 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: and voice their concerns that this is an issue that 791 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: matters to them. But more than that, they also need to, like, 792 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: if possible, to use their resources, talents, and time to 793 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: volunteer to their local innocence projects. 794 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 3: You know, there are fifty five innocence projects around the 795 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 3: country and so there's probably one near you wherever you are. 796 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 797 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 3: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 798 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 3: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll 799 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 800 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 801 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 3: org to learn how to do and get involved. I'd 802 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 3: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin 803 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: Wartis the music in The show is by three time 804 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 3: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 805 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 3: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful 806 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 3: Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production 807 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 3: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company 808 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 3: Number one