WEBVTT - Rosemarie’s Story

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I hope you enjoyed our season

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<v Speaker 1>The Truth about Sarah. We'll be having a live event

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<v Speaker 1>later this year. It's going to be a conversation between

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<v Speaker 1>me and my co host Jess McHugh and we want

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<v Speaker 1>to hear from you too. What questions do you have

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<v Speaker 1>for us about this season? Send your questions to deep

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<v Speaker 1>Cover at Pushkin dot fm. That's deep Cover All one

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<v Speaker 1>word at Pushkin dot fm and stay tuned for more

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<v Speaker 1>details on this event. One morning last December, my co

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<v Speaker 1>host Jess mchughe and our producer Amy Gaines McQuaid traveled

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<v Speaker 1>to Rhode Island sit down with a woman named Rosemarie. Coffee.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, he's going to mark it to mailman? Did dogs

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<v Speaker 2>do boo?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? All? That's Rosemary talking to her dog Boo. When

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<v Speaker 1>Jess and Amy arrived, Rosemarie had pastries from a local

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<v Speaker 1>bakery waiting for them and Rosemarie she likes to take

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<v Speaker 1>care of people like this. She's sixty years old and

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<v Speaker 1>recently retired, but before that, she spent her career supporting

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<v Speaker 1>people when they're at their most vulnerable. She worked as

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<v Speaker 1>a community support specialist and for a time Rosemary took

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<v Speaker 1>care of Sarah Kavanaugh.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've worked with her. I'm guessing three years, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>So it's up to the end. So it would write

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<v Speaker 2>exactly to the point.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah enrolled in the Wounded Warrior Independence program. It's designed

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<v Speaker 1>for veterans with life changing injuries, and it was through

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<v Speaker 1>this program that Wounded Warrior paid for Rosemary's services.

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<v Speaker 2>What did you understand her physical injuries to be. She

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<v Speaker 2>had the traumatic brain injury, she had a prosthetic hip supposedly,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was also going through cancer treatment, the prosthetic,

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<v Speaker 2>the brain injury, and the PTSD or the primary challenges.

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<v Speaker 1>She still remembers the first time that she showed up

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<v Speaker 1>to Sarah's house.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time, Sarah was like curled up in a

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<v Speaker 2>blanket in you know, on the couch in front of

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<v Speaker 2>the window, just looking out the window, all forlorn and

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<v Speaker 2>shy and withdrawn, and according to the case manager, she

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<v Speaker 2>you know, she wasn't getting adjusted to the community and

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<v Speaker 2>she really needed a lot of support. If you can

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<v Speaker 2>just picture that person that's just not been able to

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<v Speaker 2>do any anything, you know, or go anywhere, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>really struggling, You know that that was the persona that

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<v Speaker 2>she put out there.

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<v Speaker 1>Throughout our reporting, Jess and I had heard these stories

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<v Speaker 1>about Sarah running down mountain trails and competing in epic

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<v Speaker 1>workout challenges. But this, this was an entirely different Sarah

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<v Speaker 1>we were hearing about. Rose Marie worked with Sarah right

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<v Speaker 1>up until Sarah's double life came crashing down. Throughout all

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<v Speaker 1>that time, Sarah let rose Marie into her home, into

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<v Speaker 1>her life, and we wondered what did rose Marie see.

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<v Speaker 1>Turns out she saw and heard an awful lot, some

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<v Speaker 1>of which has major implications for our story. It suggests

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<v Speaker 1>that there may have been someone else helping Sarah with

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<v Speaker 1>her deception, a possible accomplice.

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<v Speaker 3>I couldn't even tell your name. I couldn't even tell

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<v Speaker 3>you necessarily who I suspected. But there were a couple

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<v Speaker 3>incidents when somebody had to call Sarah's caseworker at the

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<v Speaker 3>VA when Sarah's standing in the rooms or wasn't Sarah,

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<v Speaker 3>So who was on the other end of the phone.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Deep Cover Season six. The Truth about Sarah.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Rosemare's story. Rose Marie has worked with people

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<v Speaker 1>living with disabilities for decades, and if there's one thing

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<v Speaker 1>she's learned. It's that every case is different.

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<v Speaker 2>So there isn't a set blueprint for working with someone

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<v Speaker 2>with brain injury. It's different in the sense of each

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<v Speaker 2>person's injury manifests itself in different ways.

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<v Speaker 1>Rose Marie told us that most of the people that

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<v Speaker 1>she works with have had their worlds turned upside down

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<v Speaker 1>and they're still trying to find their footing.

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<v Speaker 2>So they've had pretty much a normal life leading up

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<v Speaker 2>to this injury, and then they may have had a

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<v Speaker 2>car accident, a stroke, a brain tumor, and then everything changes,

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<v Speaker 2>including personality changes. So that's part of it that you

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't see it with other disabilities.

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<v Speaker 1>Necessarily her job helping people get back into the world,

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<v Speaker 1>running errands, doing chores, the simple stuff, which is no

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<v Speaker 1>longer so simple. That's where Rosemarie comes in. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>she started doing for Sarah.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time I met her. Supposedly, she couldn't even

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<v Speaker 2>go into a store, she couldn't go to a target,

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<v Speaker 2>she couldn't go grocery shopping, she couldn't, you know, take

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<v Speaker 2>care of her household.

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<v Speaker 1>Rose Marie believed Sarah was dealing with PTSD, so she

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<v Speaker 1>tried to break things down make simple tasks even simpler.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, your first task is to try to just go

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<v Speaker 2>into target, you know, get one item and go through

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<v Speaker 2>the register and that's a success. Or we'd go, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>make a grocery list, like what do I need? How

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<v Speaker 2>what am I going to eat this week?

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<v Speaker 1>And rose Marie was told certain things were going to

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<v Speaker 1>be hard for Sarah.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, these are things emotionally she needs to address. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>going out in the community like the DMV would have

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<v Speaker 2>been a big trigger for her, you know, to do

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<v Speaker 2>that by herself.

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<v Speaker 1>So rose Marie went with her to the DMV to

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<v Speaker 1>get special purple heart plates for her car. You might

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<v Speaker 1>remember Sarah claimed she earned a purple heart in combat.

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<v Speaker 1>Somehow she had the paperwork to back that claim up,

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<v Speaker 1>and she got the plates without even realizing it or

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<v Speaker 1>meaning to. Rose Marie had played a small role in

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<v Speaker 1>helping Sarah deepen her deception. As they spent more time together,

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<v Speaker 1>Rosemarie and Sarah began to form a bond.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was supporting her. And of course when you're

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<v Speaker 2>doing that, you want to build a rapport. You want

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<v Speaker 2>to have the person be comfortable, so you're you're I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I was willing to do the things with her. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>say she's no, she's got to do laundry. Well, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not just going to stand there with a clipboard, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and talk at her.

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<v Speaker 1>Instead, rose Marie said, let's chat as we fold the clothes.

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<v Speaker 1>And over time, Rosemarie became a sounding board for Sarah.

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<v Speaker 2>She talked about things that bothered her. She talked about relationships,

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<v Speaker 2>she talked about family. She was always talking about financial

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<v Speaker 2>troubles that was weighing on her.

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<v Speaker 1>The version of Sarah that we kept hearing about from

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<v Speaker 1>other people was tough, unbreakable, always smiling through the pain,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of person people held up as a hero.

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<v Speaker 1>But rose Marie saw something else, something that seemed more

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<v Speaker 1>tender and fragile.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say about ninety nine percent of the time

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<v Speaker 2>when I arrived at her home, she was in tears. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>she was anxious, she was worked up. There was things

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<v Speaker 2>that had happened. And then you know, we would talk

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<v Speaker 2>and she would calm down, and then we'd say, okay

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<v Speaker 2>with the plan, and we would you be able to

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<v Speaker 2>move on to an activity that she orchestrated that we

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<v Speaker 2>should do.

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<v Speaker 1>One of these things was physical therapy.

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<v Speaker 2>She wanted to start physical therapy and the organization was

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<v Speaker 2>paying for it, Wounded Warrior, and so she was nervous

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<v Speaker 2>about going to the first visit. So I took her

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<v Speaker 2>to her first visit was.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. Rose Marie says she took Sarah to her very

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<v Speaker 1>first appointment with Sam, the physical therapist she went on

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<v Speaker 1>to become romantically involved with. At first, nothing stood out

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<v Speaker 1>to Rosemarie, but over time she came to understand that

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah's relationship with Sam had evolved.

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<v Speaker 2>It took a long time before I saw evidence there

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<v Speaker 2>was something else with Sam, and I'm trying to be professional.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to delve into like obviously. She had

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<v Speaker 2>just got married, you know, not long.

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<v Speaker 1>Before Rose Marie knew Nicole, Sarah's wife at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>She spent many hours in the home that they shared,

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<v Speaker 1>and she did her best to stay out of this

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<v Speaker 1>whole mess and just stick to her job being a

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<v Speaker 1>community support specialist. Well, it's tricky work. You get pulled

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<v Speaker 1>into people's lives, the mess, the chaos. Rose Marie kept

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<v Speaker 1>her focus, helped the person in front of you. What

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<v Speaker 1>she didn't know was just how messy it really was.

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<v Speaker 1>In early twenty twenty two, as Sarah's lies were falling apart,

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<v Speaker 1>Rose Marie arrived at Sarah's house to help with an

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<v Speaker 1>errand the moment she got there, she sensed it and

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<v Speaker 1>on settling tension in the air, like everything was on edge.

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<v Speaker 2>I show up. She's outside, She's not even in the house.

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<v Speaker 2>She's outside, she's anxious. She's got the plates in her hands,

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<v Speaker 2>she's got the paperwork. She was just like, we have

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the DMV. I have to return these plates.

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<v Speaker 2>They're causing so much problems. I just want to get

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<v Speaker 2>rid of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah was desperate to return those purple heart license plates.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a request that seemed to baffle the DMV staff,

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<v Speaker 1>but Sarah just wanted those plates gone.

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<v Speaker 2>The staff at the DMV were like so nice, and

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<v Speaker 2>they were trying to get at what was going on,

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<v Speaker 2>like why why do you want to return these? Is

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<v Speaker 2>somebody harassing you? Like because we can help you, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get contact whoever we need to to help you

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<v Speaker 2>with this. If you know, you should feel like you

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<v Speaker 2>you earn these And she's like, no, no, I just

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<v Speaker 2>have to get rid of it. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Soon after this, reports about Sarah's fraud started circulating. Rose

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<v Speaker 1>Marie was at home when her husband showed her an

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<v Speaker 1>article that revealed Sarah's deception.

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<v Speaker 2>My husband came to me and said, is this Sarah

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah in the news is showing me on my phone.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just like, oh my god. They really have,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, gone out of their way to hurt her.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, poor Sarah. What's my first response? I

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<v Speaker 2>was like reaching out to her and be like, are

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<v Speaker 2>you okay? But so initially it sounds like your reaction

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<v Speaker 2>is disbelief. Oh yes, yeah. I had no reason to

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<v Speaker 2>doubt her, and I was just like, what are these

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<v Speaker 2>people doing to her? Oh my god? Is she okay?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, call her right away? And I just said

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<v Speaker 2>to her, are you okay? And she's like, well no,

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, well, if it's not true, you

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<v Speaker 2>have to defend yourself, Sarah, you know, And she's like

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<v Speaker 2>I can't. She said I can't. I was like, what

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<v Speaker 2>do you mean. She's like, I can't defend myself. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I was like, well, tell me what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>and she's like, I can't talk. I'll call you right back.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm getting another call, and then she hung up. And

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<v Speaker 2>that was it.

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<v Speaker 1>Rose Marie soon learned about the investigation into Sarah's fraud

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<v Speaker 1>and what the FEDS had begun to discover, and she

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<v Speaker 1>came to the unsettling realization that she had been deceived

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<v Speaker 1>for years. In some ways, rose Marie knew Sarah so intimately,

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<v Speaker 1>but in other ways she didn't know her at all.

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<v Speaker 1>We asked rose Marie if she knew whether Sarah had

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<v Speaker 1>a job, and turns out she had no idea. Sarah

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<v Speaker 1>was a social worker at the VA in Providence. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>granted she did only work for Sarah part time, roughly

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<v Speaker 1>six hours a week, she knew that Sarah visited the

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<v Speaker 1>VIA pretty often, and she knew this because sometimes she

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<v Speaker 1>drove Sarah there.

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<v Speaker 2>I've taken her to the VA, so I I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I have no idea what I took what I took

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<v Speaker 2>her to, but you know, definitely dropped her off and

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<v Speaker 2>waited in the car in that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Part of what made Sarah's story so convincing to rose

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<v Speaker 1>Marie and others we interviewed was the fact that someone

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<v Speaker 1>from Sarah's healthcare team was in contact with them. This

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<v Speaker 1>person's name was Ivy. Supposedly, Ivy was a social worker

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<v Speaker 1>at the VA assigned to managing Sarah's care.

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<v Speaker 2>She had a lot of talks about the social worker

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<v Speaker 2>Ivy at the VA. So that's what I thought was

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<v Speaker 2>going on.

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<v Speaker 1>But what was really going on with Ivy, Well that's

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<v Speaker 1>something we're all still trying to figure out more on that.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, a few people we've interviewed, including Rosemarie,

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<v Speaker 1>say they spoke with someone claiming to be Ivy. Rose

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<v Speaker 1>Marie told us about one conference call in particular. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a check in with Sarah's healthcare team. Rose Marie

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<v Speaker 1>was on the line, as was a case manager from

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<v Speaker 1>the Wounded Warrior Project, and then there was Ivy from

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<v Speaker 1>the VA, offering updates on Sarah's care.

0:15:16.156 --> 0:15:19.636
<v Speaker 2>So she would go on and talk about her medical situation,

0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:26.316
<v Speaker 2>the cancer, what they were trying to do there. So

0:15:26.916 --> 0:15:31.116
<v Speaker 2>I'd be there with Sarah and then the other two

0:15:31.116 --> 0:15:33.076
<v Speaker 2>were in conference call, and so Sarah was in the

0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:35.796
<v Speaker 2>room with yes, so she couldn't have been the one

0:15:35.836 --> 0:15:39.436
<v Speaker 2>on the phone right right, And that was the case

0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:44.556
<v Speaker 2>as well another time some other woman was speaking and

0:15:44.916 --> 0:15:45.636
<v Speaker 2>as Ivy.

0:15:47.316 --> 0:15:49.716
<v Speaker 1>The question that now comes up, the one that Rose

0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:52.916
<v Speaker 1>Marie still thinks about and the one that we still

0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:57.676
<v Speaker 1>think about a lot. Is this Who's on the phone

0:15:57.676 --> 0:16:01.276
<v Speaker 1>pretending to be Ivy offering these made up details about

0:16:01.316 --> 0:16:06.156
<v Speaker 1>how Sarah's treatment was going. It wasn't Sarah because on

0:16:06.196 --> 0:16:10.116
<v Speaker 1>that particular call, Sarah was sitting in the room with Rosemarie.

0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:13.716
<v Speaker 1>So it had to be someone else, someone who was

0:16:13.756 --> 0:16:15.436
<v Speaker 1>complicit in Sarah's lies.

0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:19.596
<v Speaker 2>So there had to be other people involved. There absolutely

0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:23.796
<v Speaker 2>had to be, because I clearly remember at least two

0:16:23.876 --> 0:16:28.196
<v Speaker 2>times when Ivy was on the phone. But yeah, there

0:16:28.236 --> 0:16:29.276
<v Speaker 2>had to be another person.

0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:34.116
<v Speaker 1>We talked to Tom Donnelly about this. If you recall,

0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.436
<v Speaker 1>he's the in house investigator at the VA's Office of

0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:41.796
<v Speaker 1>Inspector General. Donnelly's thought about this a lot.

0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:44.916
<v Speaker 3>We could never prove that another person was involved, but

0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:47.756
<v Speaker 3>it's evidence that leads me to believe that one hundred

0:16:47.756 --> 0:16:49.196
<v Speaker 3>percent somebody else was involved.

0:16:49.516 --> 0:16:52.836
<v Speaker 1>Donnelly told us there really is someone named Ivy who

0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:56.716
<v Speaker 1>works for the Providence VA, but investigators had interviewed her

0:16:56.756 --> 0:17:00.596
<v Speaker 1>over the course of their investigation and they felt convinced

0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:02.796
<v Speaker 1>that she was not in on this in any way.

0:17:03.956 --> 0:17:06.956
<v Speaker 1>We actually got in touch with the real Ivy and

0:17:06.996 --> 0:17:10.396
<v Speaker 1>she told us, quote, I knew Sarah from the time

0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:14.036
<v Speaker 1>she was a social work intern. We would eat lunch together,

0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:17.476
<v Speaker 1>and although she never pretended to be a veteran with

0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:21.636
<v Speaker 1>me or other coworkers, she would tell us story after

0:17:21.876 --> 0:17:26.076
<v Speaker 1>story about her large military family. I was shocked to

0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:29.876
<v Speaker 1>learn that they never existed, and was appalled when I

0:17:29.996 --> 0:17:33.796
<v Speaker 1>was questioned by federal agents investigating whether or not I

0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:37.716
<v Speaker 1>was involved in her schemes. She went on to say,

0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:41.796
<v Speaker 1>more appalling than her using my name was the grift

0:17:41.916 --> 0:17:45.876
<v Speaker 1>that she had been running for years, duping many organizations

0:17:46.236 --> 0:17:49.716
<v Speaker 1>and betraying the trust of so many veterans, like the

0:17:49.716 --> 0:17:54.516
<v Speaker 1>ones that she was receiving a salary to help. All

0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:58.876
<v Speaker 1>of this has led investigators to believe there had to

0:17:58.956 --> 0:18:03.596
<v Speaker 1>have been someone else, someone impersonating Ivy on a series

0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:04.316
<v Speaker 1>of phone.

0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.356
<v Speaker 3>Calls, Like we figured out who who Ivy's phone number was.

0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:12.356
<v Speaker 3>Ivy's phone number was Sarah's VA issued government cell phone.

0:18:12.396 --> 0:18:14.636
<v Speaker 3>So I don't know where that phone was or who

0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:17.396
<v Speaker 3>had it, but we do know that.

0:18:17.396 --> 0:18:23.636
<v Speaker 1>It was used. In other words, Donnelly thinks someone was

0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:27.756
<v Speaker 1>using Sarah's work phone to fake the whole thing, calling

0:18:27.796 --> 0:18:33.516
<v Speaker 1>people pretending to be Ivy. But if it wasn't Sarah,

0:18:33.836 --> 0:18:37.836
<v Speaker 1>well then who was it. That question has yet to

0:18:37.876 --> 0:18:50.756
<v Speaker 1>be answered. Maybe one day we'll find out. Before rose

0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:55.076
<v Speaker 1>Marie learned about Sarah's lies, she says she was never

0:18:55.116 --> 0:18:59.636
<v Speaker 1>really suspicious. She felt nothing but empathy for Sarah.

0:18:59.836 --> 0:19:03.076
<v Speaker 2>You see, this person has been impacted and her life

0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:07.076
<v Speaker 2>has been so impaired, and she's so young. I mean,

0:19:07.156 --> 0:19:12.156
<v Speaker 2>it really pull on your heart. There's no question about it.

0:19:12.516 --> 0:19:17.556
<v Speaker 2>Everybody who met her felt sorry for her every time,

0:19:17.596 --> 0:19:18.956
<v Speaker 2>everyone wanted to help her.

0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:23.836
<v Speaker 1>Rosemary became so attached to Sarah that even after retiring

0:19:23.956 --> 0:19:28.156
<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty one, she continued to help her, volunteering

0:19:28.196 --> 0:19:29.556
<v Speaker 1>her time for free.

0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:32.836
<v Speaker 2>I just knew I had to be there for her,

0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:37.676
<v Speaker 2>like I felt when she reacted that she wasn't going

0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:42.836
<v Speaker 2>to have my contact, and she felt so lost and

0:19:42.996 --> 0:19:47.436
<v Speaker 2>there was just so much going on that I wanted

0:19:47.476 --> 0:19:50.596
<v Speaker 2>to be there for her. I wanted to be able

0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:54.316
<v Speaker 2>to say you can call me anytime. I'm here for you.

0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:59.476
<v Speaker 2>And she was like, great, okay. You know, ever said,

0:19:59.516 --> 0:20:01.156
<v Speaker 2>oh you don't have to do that, or you know,

0:20:01.236 --> 0:20:05.876
<v Speaker 2>I don't want, you know, she definitely let me do it.

0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:10.236
<v Speaker 2>It's really generous of you. I don't know, I mean,

0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:13.156
<v Speaker 2>you can't work in this career, in this field and

0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:17.876
<v Speaker 2>not care you know what, you can't. That's just, you know,

0:20:18.436 --> 0:20:20.796
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't make me any kind of a special person.

0:20:20.916 --> 0:20:24.556
<v Speaker 2>It's just that's where I was at, you know, at

0:20:24.556 --> 0:20:24.996
<v Speaker 2>the time.

0:20:29.836 --> 0:20:32.796
<v Speaker 1>The last time rose Marie saw Sarah was on the

0:20:32.876 --> 0:20:35.956
<v Speaker 1>day of the sentencing in March of twenty twenty three.

0:20:36.836 --> 0:20:39.716
<v Speaker 1>Rose Marie was there in the courtroom, surrounded by people

0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:42.556
<v Speaker 1>who were angry and demanding justice.

0:20:43.196 --> 0:20:46.916
<v Speaker 2>You know. By that time, you know, sympathy had worn off,

0:20:48.156 --> 0:20:51.956
<v Speaker 2>and everybody just wanted to see her be held accountable.

0:20:52.596 --> 0:20:57.116
<v Speaker 2>You know. So basically it was Sarah and her attorney

0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:00.596
<v Speaker 2>and then a whole bunch of other people just you know,

0:21:00.996 --> 0:21:02.356
<v Speaker 2>rooting for her to go to jail.

0:21:03.916 --> 0:21:07.796
<v Speaker 1>At sentencing, rose Marie connected with many other people in

0:21:07.876 --> 0:21:12.596
<v Speaker 1>Sarah's orbit, like Michelle the Jim Buddy and Dave the

0:21:12.676 --> 0:21:17.556
<v Speaker 1>VFW commander. Rosemarie had felt hurt and embarrassed that she'd

0:21:17.556 --> 0:21:21.756
<v Speaker 1>fallen for Sarah's schemes, but when she looked around, she

0:21:21.836 --> 0:21:24.756
<v Speaker 1>started to see the bigger picture and it put things

0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:25.596
<v Speaker 1>into perspective.

0:21:26.276 --> 0:21:28.236
<v Speaker 2>So many people got scammed. I mean, that's where I

0:21:28.276 --> 0:21:32.636
<v Speaker 2>stopped beating myself up with people smarter than me got scammed,

0:21:32.836 --> 0:21:35.836
<v Speaker 2>you know, in a lot larger ways. All the times

0:21:35.916 --> 0:21:39.956
<v Speaker 2>all of us could have intersected somehow we didn't, you know,

0:21:40.476 --> 0:21:45.276
<v Speaker 2>and then but it just didn't happen. Oh God, I

0:21:45.236 --> 0:21:47.396
<v Speaker 2>just wish I got to save some grief for people.

0:21:47.716 --> 0:21:50.956
<v Speaker 1>I just wish I could have saved some grief for people.

0:21:52.036 --> 0:21:55.876
<v Speaker 1>It felt like Rosemarie was basically saying, if only I

0:21:55.916 --> 0:21:59.036
<v Speaker 1>had figured this out, maybe we could have avoided this

0:21:59.116 --> 0:22:03.876
<v Speaker 1>whole mess. The fallout from Sarah's actions was far reaching,

0:22:04.236 --> 0:22:07.236
<v Speaker 1>but one of the cruelest outcomes is that someone like

0:22:07.356 --> 0:22:11.396
<v Speaker 1>Rosemarie would be left feeling even a little bit responsible,

0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:16.516
<v Speaker 1>blaming herself for her own generosity, wondering if that very

0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:22.236
<v Speaker 1>kindness did more harm than good. Of course she's not

0:22:22.276 --> 0:22:27.356
<v Speaker 1>to blame, but sometimes it's not so easy for her

0:22:27.396 --> 0:22:30.836
<v Speaker 1>to see it this way. At the very end of

0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:35.036
<v Speaker 1>this interview, our producer Amy asked rose Marie a final

0:22:35.116 --> 0:22:37.076
<v Speaker 1>question about Sarah.

0:22:37.196 --> 0:22:39.196
<v Speaker 2>Is there anything that you would want to ask her

0:22:39.436 --> 0:22:43.196
<v Speaker 2>or like, do you think that you'll connect with her?

0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:44.316
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:22:46.156 --> 0:22:48.556
<v Speaker 2>I think everybody just probably wants to know why, But

0:22:48.636 --> 0:22:51.796
<v Speaker 2>you'd never get an answer that we could trust. If

0:22:51.836 --> 0:22:56.076
<v Speaker 2>I asked her why, I wouldn't get a real honest

0:22:57.476 --> 0:23:00.756
<v Speaker 2>you know, so what do what I really ask? You know,

0:23:02.276 --> 0:23:05.996
<v Speaker 2>just a part of my past and time to move on.

0:23:07.036 --> 0:23:10.516
<v Speaker 1>So many people in this story were to see Rosemarie

0:23:10.596 --> 0:23:13.916
<v Speaker 1>saw this for herself at the sentencing hearing. But the

0:23:13.996 --> 0:23:18.156
<v Speaker 1>human mind, it's a curious thing. It's not always governed

0:23:18.156 --> 0:23:21.836
<v Speaker 1>by rationality or self love. Our friends may tell us

0:23:21.916 --> 0:23:25.036
<v Speaker 1>we did no wrong. We may yearn to believe them,

0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:29.356
<v Speaker 1>and perhaps we should. But in quiet moments, late at night,

0:23:29.876 --> 0:23:35.116
<v Speaker 1>the mind often wrestles with guilt, regret, and recriminations, feelings

0:23:35.156 --> 0:23:39.116
<v Speaker 1>that defy logic, but hard as we may try, prove

0:23:39.156 --> 0:23:44.036
<v Speaker 1>impossible to quiet. And in this way, Sarah's story lives on.

0:23:45.276 --> 0:23:47.916
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it ends. That's what I worry about.

0:23:48.316 --> 0:23:50.276
<v Speaker 2>I guess the biggest thing I wonder is like what

0:23:50.916 --> 0:23:54.196
<v Speaker 2>she's going to do after, because how do you come

0:23:54.236 --> 0:23:58.676
<v Speaker 2>out of jail and having done this and have some

0:23:58.836 --> 0:24:00.796
<v Speaker 2>kind of a normal life. She's going to have to

0:24:00.916 --> 0:24:05.956
<v Speaker 2>create another set of lies. She's not going to just

0:24:05.956 --> 0:24:07.636
<v Speaker 2>come out and say, yeah, I just went to prison

0:24:07.676 --> 0:24:11.076
<v Speaker 2>because I scandal these people and I stole valor, and

0:24:11.196 --> 0:24:15.636
<v Speaker 2>you know, so I don't think it stops. That's what

0:24:15.676 --> 0:24:16.476
<v Speaker 2>I'm afraid of.

0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:22.076
<v Speaker 1>These last words, they've stayed with me. I find them haunting.

0:24:23.796 --> 0:24:28.076
<v Speaker 1>As storytellers were always chasing after the elusive perfect endings,

0:24:28.636 --> 0:24:32.596
<v Speaker 1>looking for that final note of closure. But as long

0:24:32.636 --> 0:24:35.756
<v Speaker 1>as people remember, and as long as they're willing to

0:24:35.836 --> 0:24:41.156
<v Speaker 1>ask that most human of questions, what if, then there

0:24:41.236 --> 0:24:46.516
<v Speaker 1>is no end, not really, only more questions that spin

0:24:46.596 --> 0:25:04.476
<v Speaker 1>into the night. This episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid,

0:25:04.916 --> 0:25:09.716
<v Speaker 1>Jesse m Hugh Taly Emlin, and Sonya Gurwit. It was

0:25:09.996 --> 0:25:14.516
<v Speaker 1>edited by Karen Chakerji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.

0:25:15.036 --> 0:25:20.796
<v Speaker 1>Original music from Luis Gera, mastering by Sarah Bruger. Special

0:25:20.916 --> 0:25:25.556
<v Speaker 1>thanks to Owen Miller, Lucy Sullivan, Jake Flanagan, Sarah Nix,

0:25:25.996 --> 0:25:28.956
<v Speaker 1>and Greta Cone. I'm Jake halpern