1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I hope you enjoyed our season 2 00:00:22,796 --> 00:00:26,356 Speaker 1: The Truth about Sarah. We'll be having a live event 3 00:00:26,596 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: later this year. It's going to be a conversation between 4 00:00:29,996 --> 00:00:33,876 Speaker 1: me and my co host Jess McHugh and we want 5 00:00:33,916 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: to hear from you too. What questions do you have 6 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 1: for us about this season? Send your questions to deep 7 00:00:41,636 --> 00:00:45,636 Speaker 1: Cover at Pushkin dot fm. That's deep Cover All one 8 00:00:45,716 --> 00:00:49,836 Speaker 1: word at Pushkin dot fm and stay tuned for more 9 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 1: details on this event. One morning last December, my co 10 00:00:56,036 --> 00:01:00,596 Speaker 1: host Jess mchughe and our producer Amy Gaines McQuaid traveled 11 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 1: to Rhode Island sit down with a woman named Rosemarie. Coffee. 12 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,756 Speaker 2: Oh, he's going to mark it to mailman? Did dogs 13 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 2: do boo? 14 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: Right? All? That's Rosemary talking to her dog Boo. When 15 00:01:18,236 --> 00:01:21,796 Speaker 1: Jess and Amy arrived, Rosemarie had pastries from a local 16 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:26,116 Speaker 1: bakery waiting for them and Rosemarie she likes to take 17 00:01:26,156 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 1: care of people like this. She's sixty years old and 18 00:01:29,396 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: recently retired, but before that, she spent her career supporting 19 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 1: people when they're at their most vulnerable. She worked as 20 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 1: a community support specialist and for a time Rosemary took 21 00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 1: care of Sarah Kavanaugh. 22 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:47,796 Speaker 2: Well, I've worked with her. I'm guessing three years, wow, 23 00:01:47,916 --> 00:01:51,356 Speaker 2: So it's up to the end. So it would write 24 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 2: exactly to the point. 25 00:01:57,276 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 1: Sarah enrolled in the Wounded Warrior Independence program. It's designed 26 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 1: for veterans with life changing injuries, and it was through 27 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:10,276 Speaker 1: this program that Wounded Warrior paid for Rosemary's services. 28 00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 2: What did you understand her physical injuries to be. She 29 00:02:14,996 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 2: had the traumatic brain injury, she had a prosthetic hip supposedly, 30 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 2: and she was also going through cancer treatment, the prosthetic, 31 00:02:28,076 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 2: the brain injury, and the PTSD or the primary challenges. 32 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:35,356 Speaker 1: She still remembers the first time that she showed up 33 00:02:35,396 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: to Sarah's house. 34 00:02:37,236 --> 00:02:40,236 Speaker 2: At the time, Sarah was like curled up in a 35 00:02:40,796 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 2: blanket in you know, on the couch in front of 36 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:46,716 Speaker 2: the window, just looking out the window, all forlorn and 37 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 2: shy and withdrawn, and according to the case manager, she 38 00:02:54,356 --> 00:02:58,076 Speaker 2: you know, she wasn't getting adjusted to the community and 39 00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 2: she really needed a lot of support. If you can 40 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 2: just picture that person that's just not been able to 41 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 2: do any anything, you know, or go anywhere, you know, 42 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 2: really struggling, You know that that was the persona that 43 00:03:16,756 --> 00:03:17,516 Speaker 2: she put out there. 44 00:03:18,876 --> 00:03:22,236 Speaker 1: Throughout our reporting, Jess and I had heard these stories 45 00:03:22,276 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: about Sarah running down mountain trails and competing in epic 46 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: workout challenges. But this, this was an entirely different Sarah 47 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 1: we were hearing about. Rose Marie worked with Sarah right 48 00:03:36,796 --> 00:03:40,876 Speaker 1: up until Sarah's double life came crashing down. Throughout all 49 00:03:40,876 --> 00:03:44,716 Speaker 1: that time, Sarah let rose Marie into her home, into 50 00:03:44,756 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: her life, and we wondered what did rose Marie see. 51 00:03:50,036 --> 00:03:54,916 Speaker 1: Turns out she saw and heard an awful lot, some 52 00:03:54,956 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 1: of which has major implications for our story. It suggests 53 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:01,916 Speaker 1: that there may have been someone else helping Sarah with 54 00:04:01,956 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 1: her deception, a possible accomplice. 55 00:04:06,356 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 3: I couldn't even tell your name. I couldn't even tell 56 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:13,396 Speaker 3: you necessarily who I suspected. But there were a couple 57 00:04:13,476 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 3: incidents when somebody had to call Sarah's caseworker at the 58 00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:21,436 Speaker 3: VA when Sarah's standing in the rooms or wasn't Sarah, 59 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:22,916 Speaker 3: So who was on the other end of the phone. 60 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:38,716 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Deep Cover Season six. The Truth about Sarah. 61 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 1: This is Rosemare's story. Rose Marie has worked with people 62 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 1: living with disabilities for decades, and if there's one thing 63 00:05:02,956 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 1: she's learned. It's that every case is different. 64 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 2: So there isn't a set blueprint for working with someone 65 00:05:11,356 --> 00:05:15,476 Speaker 2: with brain injury. It's different in the sense of each 66 00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 2: person's injury manifests itself in different ways. 67 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 1: Rose Marie told us that most of the people that 68 00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:25,316 Speaker 1: she works with have had their worlds turned upside down 69 00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 1: and they're still trying to find their footing. 70 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:32,476 Speaker 2: So they've had pretty much a normal life leading up 71 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 2: to this injury, and then they may have had a 72 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 2: car accident, a stroke, a brain tumor, and then everything changes, 73 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:44,316 Speaker 2: including personality changes. So that's part of it that you 74 00:05:44,356 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 2: wouldn't see it with other disabilities. 75 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 1: Necessarily her job helping people get back into the world, 76 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 1: running errands, doing chores, the simple stuff, which is no 77 00:05:55,436 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: longer so simple. That's where Rosemarie comes in. That's what 78 00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:01,596 Speaker 1: she started doing for Sarah. 79 00:06:01,636 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 2: At the time I met her. Supposedly, she couldn't even 80 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 2: go into a store, she couldn't go to a target, 81 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 2: she couldn't go grocery shopping, she couldn't, you know, take 82 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:11,636 Speaker 2: care of her household. 83 00:06:12,156 --> 00:06:16,676 Speaker 1: Rose Marie believed Sarah was dealing with PTSD, so she 84 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,596 Speaker 1: tried to break things down make simple tasks even simpler. 85 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 2: Okay, your first task is to try to just go 86 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:29,236 Speaker 2: into target, you know, get one item and go through 87 00:06:29,276 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 2: the register and that's a success. Or we'd go, you know, 88 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 2: make a grocery list, like what do I need? How 89 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 2: what am I going to eat this week? 90 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 1: And rose Marie was told certain things were going to 91 00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 1: be hard for Sarah. 92 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 2: Okay, these are things emotionally she needs to address. You know, 93 00:06:46,236 --> 00:06:49,636 Speaker 2: going out in the community like the DMV would have 94 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 2: been a big trigger for her, you know, to do 95 00:06:52,316 --> 00:06:53,196 Speaker 2: that by herself. 96 00:06:53,676 --> 00:06:56,556 Speaker 1: So rose Marie went with her to the DMV to 97 00:06:56,596 --> 00:07:00,316 Speaker 1: get special purple heart plates for her car. You might 98 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:03,716 Speaker 1: remember Sarah claimed she earned a purple heart in combat. 99 00:07:04,596 --> 00:07:08,036 Speaker 1: Somehow she had the paperwork to back that claim up, 100 00:07:08,676 --> 00:07:13,156 Speaker 1: and she got the plates without even realizing it or 101 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:16,396 Speaker 1: meaning to. Rose Marie had played a small role in 102 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 1: helping Sarah deepen her deception. As they spent more time together, 103 00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:25,436 Speaker 1: Rosemarie and Sarah began to form a bond. 104 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 2: So I was supporting her. And of course when you're 105 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 2: doing that, you want to build a rapport. You want 106 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 2: to have the person be comfortable, so you're you're I mean, 107 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:40,036 Speaker 2: I was willing to do the things with her. Let's 108 00:07:40,036 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 2: say she's no, she's got to do laundry. Well, I'm 109 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 2: not just going to stand there with a clipboard, you know, 110 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:48,196 Speaker 2: and talk at her. 111 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 1: Instead, rose Marie said, let's chat as we fold the clothes. 112 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:58,716 Speaker 1: And over time, Rosemarie became a sounding board for Sarah. 113 00:07:59,036 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 2: She talked about things that bothered her. She talked about relationships, 114 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:07,196 Speaker 2: she talked about family. She was always talking about financial 115 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:09,396 Speaker 2: troubles that was weighing on her. 116 00:08:09,756 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 1: The version of Sarah that we kept hearing about from 117 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: other people was tough, unbreakable, always smiling through the pain, 118 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 1: the kind of person people held up as a hero. 119 00:08:20,916 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: But rose Marie saw something else, something that seemed more 120 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:26,956 Speaker 1: tender and fragile. 121 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 2: I would say about ninety nine percent of the time 122 00:08:32,556 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 2: when I arrived at her home, she was in tears. Wow, 123 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 2: she was anxious, she was worked up. There was things 124 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 2: that had happened. And then you know, we would talk 125 00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 2: and she would calm down, and then we'd say, okay 126 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:46,596 Speaker 2: with the plan, and we would you be able to 127 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 2: move on to an activity that she orchestrated that we 128 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 2: should do. 129 00:08:52,276 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 1: One of these things was physical therapy. 130 00:08:55,356 --> 00:09:00,036 Speaker 2: She wanted to start physical therapy and the organization was 131 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 2: paying for it, Wounded Warrior, and so she was nervous 132 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:07,396 Speaker 2: about going to the first visit. So I took her 133 00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:08,956 Speaker 2: to her first visit was. 134 00:09:10,756 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: Yep. Rose Marie says she took Sarah to her very 135 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 1: first appointment with Sam, the physical therapist she went on 136 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 1: to become romantically involved with. At first, nothing stood out 137 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 1: to Rosemarie, but over time she came to understand that 138 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 1: Sarah's relationship with Sam had evolved. 139 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 2: It took a long time before I saw evidence there 140 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:38,076 Speaker 2: was something else with Sam, and I'm trying to be professional. 141 00:09:38,116 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 2: I'm not going to delve into like obviously. She had 142 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:42,596 Speaker 2: just got married, you know, not long. 143 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: Before Rose Marie knew Nicole, Sarah's wife at the time. 144 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:50,116 Speaker 1: She spent many hours in the home that they shared, 145 00:09:50,836 --> 00:09:53,396 Speaker 1: and she did her best to stay out of this 146 00:09:53,476 --> 00:09:57,476 Speaker 1: whole mess and just stick to her job being a 147 00:09:57,516 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: community support specialist. Well, it's tricky work. You get pulled 148 00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 1: into people's lives, the mess, the chaos. Rose Marie kept 149 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 1: her focus, helped the person in front of you. What 150 00:10:10,036 --> 00:10:13,716 Speaker 1: she didn't know was just how messy it really was. 151 00:10:18,756 --> 00:10:22,716 Speaker 1: In early twenty twenty two, as Sarah's lies were falling apart, 152 00:10:22,996 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: Rose Marie arrived at Sarah's house to help with an 153 00:10:25,796 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 1: errand the moment she got there, she sensed it and 154 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:33,436 Speaker 1: on settling tension in the air, like everything was on edge. 155 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 2: I show up. She's outside, She's not even in the house. 156 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 2: She's outside, she's anxious. She's got the plates in her hands, 157 00:10:41,676 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 2: she's got the paperwork. She was just like, we have 158 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:47,116 Speaker 2: to go to the DMV. I have to return these plates. 159 00:10:47,116 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 2: They're causing so much problems. I just want to get 160 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 2: rid of them. 161 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: Sarah was desperate to return those purple heart license plates. 162 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 1: It was a request that seemed to baffle the DMV staff, 163 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:02,116 Speaker 1: but Sarah just wanted those plates gone. 164 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 2: The staff at the DMV were like so nice, and 165 00:11:05,516 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 2: they were trying to get at what was going on, 166 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 2: like why why do you want to return these? Is 167 00:11:11,836 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 2: somebody harassing you? Like because we can help you, you know, 168 00:11:14,996 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 2: we'll get contact whoever we need to to help you 169 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 2: with this. If you know, you should feel like you 170 00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 2: you earn these And she's like, no, no, I just 171 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:25,556 Speaker 2: have to get rid of it. I don't want to 172 00:11:25,556 --> 00:11:26,276 Speaker 2: talk about it. 173 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:34,036 Speaker 1: Soon after this, reports about Sarah's fraud started circulating. Rose 174 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 1: Marie was at home when her husband showed her an 175 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: article that revealed Sarah's deception. 176 00:11:39,916 --> 00:11:43,196 Speaker 2: My husband came to me and said, is this Sarah 177 00:11:43,396 --> 00:11:46,876 Speaker 2: Sarah in the news is showing me on my phone. 178 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my god. They really have, 179 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 2: you know, gone out of their way to hurt her. 180 00:11:57,196 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 2: Oh my god, poor Sarah. What's my first response? I 181 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:04,396 Speaker 2: was like reaching out to her and be like, are 182 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 2: you okay? But so initially it sounds like your reaction 183 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 2: is disbelief. Oh yes, yeah. I had no reason to 184 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 2: doubt her, and I was just like, what are these 185 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 2: people doing to her? Oh my god? Is she okay? 186 00:12:16,756 --> 00:12:18,756 Speaker 2: You know, call her right away? And I just said 187 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:24,276 Speaker 2: to her, are you okay? And she's like, well no, 188 00:12:24,836 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 2: And I was like, well, if it's not true, you 189 00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 2: have to defend yourself, Sarah, you know, And she's like 190 00:12:31,196 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 2: I can't. She said I can't. I was like, what 191 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:40,756 Speaker 2: do you mean. She's like, I can't defend myself. And 192 00:12:40,836 --> 00:12:44,316 Speaker 2: then I was like, well, tell me what's going on 193 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 2: and she's like, I can't talk. I'll call you right back. 194 00:12:47,716 --> 00:12:50,876 Speaker 2: I'm getting another call, and then she hung up. And 195 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:51,396 Speaker 2: that was it. 196 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 1: Rose Marie soon learned about the investigation into Sarah's fraud 197 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:09,196 Speaker 1: and what the FEDS had begun to discover, and she 198 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 1: came to the unsettling realization that she had been deceived 199 00:13:13,636 --> 00:13:19,596 Speaker 1: for years. In some ways, rose Marie knew Sarah so intimately, 200 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:22,876 Speaker 1: but in other ways she didn't know her at all. 201 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:26,556 Speaker 1: We asked rose Marie if she knew whether Sarah had 202 00:13:26,596 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 1: a job, and turns out she had no idea. Sarah 203 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 1: was a social worker at the VA in Providence. Now, 204 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 1: granted she did only work for Sarah part time, roughly 205 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:40,956 Speaker 1: six hours a week, she knew that Sarah visited the 206 00:13:41,036 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 1: VIA pretty often, and she knew this because sometimes she 207 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 1: drove Sarah there. 208 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 2: I've taken her to the VA, so I I mean, 209 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:51,716 Speaker 2: I have no idea what I took what I took 210 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 2: her to, but you know, definitely dropped her off and 211 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 2: waited in the car in that kind of thing. 212 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:03,236 Speaker 1: Part of what made Sarah's story so convincing to rose 213 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:07,156 Speaker 1: Marie and others we interviewed was the fact that someone 214 00:14:07,156 --> 00:14:11,156 Speaker 1: from Sarah's healthcare team was in contact with them. This 215 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:15,436 Speaker 1: person's name was Ivy. Supposedly, Ivy was a social worker 216 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:18,676 Speaker 1: at the VA assigned to managing Sarah's care. 217 00:14:20,156 --> 00:14:22,996 Speaker 2: She had a lot of talks about the social worker 218 00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 2: Ivy at the VA. So that's what I thought was 219 00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:26,596 Speaker 2: going on. 220 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 1: But what was really going on with Ivy, Well that's 221 00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,716 Speaker 1: something we're all still trying to figure out more on that. 222 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: After the break, a few people we've interviewed, including Rosemarie, 223 00:14:54,676 --> 00:14:58,396 Speaker 1: say they spoke with someone claiming to be Ivy. Rose 224 00:14:58,476 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 1: Marie told us about one conference call in particular. It 225 00:15:02,316 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: was a check in with Sarah's healthcare team. Rose Marie 226 00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 1: was on the line, as was a case manager from 227 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 1: the Wounded Warrior Project, and then there was Ivy from 228 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:15,436 Speaker 1: the VA, offering updates on Sarah's care. 229 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:19,636 Speaker 2: So she would go on and talk about her medical situation, 230 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:26,316 Speaker 2: the cancer, what they were trying to do there. So 231 00:15:26,916 --> 00:15:31,116 Speaker 2: I'd be there with Sarah and then the other two 232 00:15:31,116 --> 00:15:33,076 Speaker 2: were in conference call, and so Sarah was in the 233 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:35,796 Speaker 2: room with yes, so she couldn't have been the one 234 00:15:35,836 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 2: on the phone right right, And that was the case 235 00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:44,556 Speaker 2: as well another time some other woman was speaking and 236 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 2: as Ivy. 237 00:15:47,316 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 1: The question that now comes up, the one that Rose 238 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 1: Marie still thinks about and the one that we still 239 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 1: think about a lot. Is this Who's on the phone 240 00:15:57,676 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 1: pretending to be Ivy offering these made up details about 241 00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 1: how Sarah's treatment was going. It wasn't Sarah because on 242 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: that particular call, Sarah was sitting in the room with Rosemarie. 243 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:13,716 Speaker 1: So it had to be someone else, someone who was 244 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:15,436 Speaker 1: complicit in Sarah's lies. 245 00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 2: So there had to be other people involved. There absolutely 246 00:16:19,796 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 2: had to be, because I clearly remember at least two 247 00:16:23,876 --> 00:16:28,196 Speaker 2: times when Ivy was on the phone. But yeah, there 248 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 2: had to be another person. 249 00:16:30,716 --> 00:16:34,116 Speaker 1: We talked to Tom Donnelly about this. If you recall, 250 00:16:34,436 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: he's the in house investigator at the VA's Office of 251 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 1: Inspector General. Donnelly's thought about this a lot. 252 00:16:42,036 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 3: We could never prove that another person was involved, but 253 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:47,756 Speaker 3: it's evidence that leads me to believe that one hundred 254 00:16:47,756 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 3: percent somebody else was involved. 255 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:52,836 Speaker 1: Donnelly told us there really is someone named Ivy who 256 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 1: works for the Providence VA, but investigators had interviewed her 257 00:16:56,756 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: over the course of their investigation and they felt convinced 258 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:02,796 Speaker 1: that she was not in on this in any way. 259 00:17:03,956 --> 00:17:06,956 Speaker 1: We actually got in touch with the real Ivy and 260 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: she told us, quote, I knew Sarah from the time 261 00:17:10,516 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 1: she was a social work intern. We would eat lunch together, 262 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 1: and although she never pretended to be a veteran with 263 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 1: me or other coworkers, she would tell us story after 264 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 1: story about her large military family. I was shocked to 265 00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 1: learn that they never existed, and was appalled when I 266 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:33,796 Speaker 1: was questioned by federal agents investigating whether or not I 267 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 1: was involved in her schemes. She went on to say, 268 00:17:38,556 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 1: more appalling than her using my name was the grift 269 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:45,876 Speaker 1: that she had been running for years, duping many organizations 270 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:49,716 Speaker 1: and betraying the trust of so many veterans, like the 271 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:54,516 Speaker 1: ones that she was receiving a salary to help. All 272 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 1: of this has led investigators to believe there had to 273 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: have been someone else, someone impersonating Ivy on a series 274 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:04,316 Speaker 1: of phone. 275 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:07,356 Speaker 3: Calls, Like we figured out who who Ivy's phone number was. 276 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 3: Ivy's phone number was Sarah's VA issued government cell phone. 277 00:18:12,396 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 3: So I don't know where that phone was or who 278 00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:17,396 Speaker 3: had it, but we do know that. 279 00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: It was used. In other words, Donnelly thinks someone was 280 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:27,756 Speaker 1: using Sarah's work phone to fake the whole thing, calling 281 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:33,516 Speaker 1: people pretending to be Ivy. But if it wasn't Sarah, 282 00:18:33,836 --> 00:18:37,836 Speaker 1: well then who was it. That question has yet to 283 00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 1: be answered. Maybe one day we'll find out. Before rose 284 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 1: Marie learned about Sarah's lies, she says she was never 285 00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:59,636 Speaker 1: really suspicious. She felt nothing but empathy for Sarah. 286 00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 2: You see, this person has been impacted and her life 287 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 2: has been so impaired, and she's so young. I mean, 288 00:19:07,156 --> 00:19:12,156 Speaker 2: it really pull on your heart. There's no question about it. 289 00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:17,556 Speaker 2: Everybody who met her felt sorry for her every time, 290 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:18,956 Speaker 2: everyone wanted to help her. 291 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:23,836 Speaker 1: Rosemary became so attached to Sarah that even after retiring 292 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:28,156 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, she continued to help her, volunteering 293 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:29,556 Speaker 1: her time for free. 294 00:19:30,276 --> 00:19:32,836 Speaker 2: I just knew I had to be there for her, 295 00:19:33,436 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 2: like I felt when she reacted that she wasn't going 296 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 2: to have my contact, and she felt so lost and 297 00:19:42,996 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 2: there was just so much going on that I wanted 298 00:19:47,476 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 2: to be there for her. I wanted to be able 299 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 2: to say you can call me anytime. I'm here for you. 300 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:59,476 Speaker 2: And she was like, great, okay. You know, ever said, 301 00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:01,156 Speaker 2: oh you don't have to do that, or you know, 302 00:20:01,236 --> 00:20:05,876 Speaker 2: I don't want, you know, she definitely let me do it. 303 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:10,236 Speaker 2: It's really generous of you. I don't know, I mean, 304 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 2: you can't work in this career, in this field and 305 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 2: not care you know what, you can't. That's just, you know, 306 00:20:18,436 --> 00:20:20,796 Speaker 2: it doesn't make me any kind of a special person. 307 00:20:20,916 --> 00:20:24,556 Speaker 2: It's just that's where I was at, you know, at 308 00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 2: the time. 309 00:20:29,836 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 1: The last time rose Marie saw Sarah was on the 310 00:20:32,876 --> 00:20:35,956 Speaker 1: day of the sentencing in March of twenty twenty three. 311 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 1: Rose Marie was there in the courtroom, surrounded by people 312 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:42,556 Speaker 1: who were angry and demanding justice. 313 00:20:43,196 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 2: You know. By that time, you know, sympathy had worn off, 314 00:20:48,156 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 2: and everybody just wanted to see her be held accountable. 315 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:57,116 Speaker 2: You know. So basically it was Sarah and her attorney 316 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 2: and then a whole bunch of other people just you know, 317 00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 2: rooting for her to go to jail. 318 00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:07,796 Speaker 1: At sentencing, rose Marie connected with many other people in 319 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:12,596 Speaker 1: Sarah's orbit, like Michelle the Jim Buddy and Dave the 320 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:17,556 Speaker 1: VFW commander. Rosemarie had felt hurt and embarrassed that she'd 321 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:21,756 Speaker 1: fallen for Sarah's schemes, but when she looked around, she 322 00:21:21,836 --> 00:21:24,756 Speaker 1: started to see the bigger picture and it put things 323 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 1: into perspective. 324 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:28,236 Speaker 2: So many people got scammed. I mean, that's where I 325 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 2: stopped beating myself up with people smarter than me got scammed, 326 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 2: you know, in a lot larger ways. All the times 327 00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 2: all of us could have intersected somehow we didn't, you know, 328 00:21:40,476 --> 00:21:45,276 Speaker 2: and then but it just didn't happen. Oh God, I 329 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:47,396 Speaker 2: just wish I got to save some grief for people. 330 00:21:47,716 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 1: I just wish I could have saved some grief for people. 331 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,876 Speaker 1: It felt like Rosemarie was basically saying, if only I 332 00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 1: had figured this out, maybe we could have avoided this 333 00:21:59,116 --> 00:22:03,876 Speaker 1: whole mess. The fallout from Sarah's actions was far reaching, 334 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 1: but one of the cruelest outcomes is that someone like 335 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:11,396 Speaker 1: Rosemarie would be left feeling even a little bit responsible, 336 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: blaming herself for her own generosity, wondering if that very 337 00:22:16,636 --> 00:22:22,236 Speaker 1: kindness did more harm than good. Of course she's not 338 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:27,356 Speaker 1: to blame, but sometimes it's not so easy for her 339 00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:30,836 Speaker 1: to see it this way. At the very end of 340 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 1: this interview, our producer Amy asked rose Marie a final 341 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:37,076 Speaker 1: question about Sarah. 342 00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:39,196 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you would want to ask her 343 00:22:39,436 --> 00:22:43,196 Speaker 2: or like, do you think that you'll connect with her? 344 00:22:44,236 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 1: No? 345 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:48,556 Speaker 2: I think everybody just probably wants to know why, But 346 00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:51,796 Speaker 2: you'd never get an answer that we could trust. If 347 00:22:51,836 --> 00:22:56,076 Speaker 2: I asked her why, I wouldn't get a real honest 348 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 2: you know, so what do what I really ask? You know, 349 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:05,996 Speaker 2: just a part of my past and time to move on. 350 00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: So many people in this story were to see Rosemarie 351 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:13,916 Speaker 1: saw this for herself at the sentencing hearing. But the 352 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:18,156 Speaker 1: human mind, it's a curious thing. It's not always governed 353 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,836 Speaker 1: by rationality or self love. Our friends may tell us 354 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:25,036 Speaker 1: we did no wrong. We may yearn to believe them, 355 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 1: and perhaps we should. But in quiet moments, late at night, 356 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:35,116 Speaker 1: the mind often wrestles with guilt, regret, and recriminations, feelings 357 00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:39,116 Speaker 1: that defy logic, but hard as we may try, prove 358 00:23:39,156 --> 00:23:44,036 Speaker 1: impossible to quiet. And in this way, Sarah's story lives on. 359 00:23:45,276 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 2: I don't think it ends. That's what I worry about. 360 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:50,276 Speaker 2: I guess the biggest thing I wonder is like what 361 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 2: she's going to do after, because how do you come 362 00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:58,676 Speaker 2: out of jail and having done this and have some 363 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:00,796 Speaker 2: kind of a normal life. She's going to have to 364 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 2: create another set of lies. She's not going to just 365 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:07,636 Speaker 2: come out and say, yeah, I just went to prison 366 00:24:07,676 --> 00:24:11,076 Speaker 2: because I scandal these people and I stole valor, and 367 00:24:11,196 --> 00:24:15,636 Speaker 2: you know, so I don't think it stops. That's what 368 00:24:15,676 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 2: I'm afraid of. 369 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 1: These last words, they've stayed with me. I find them haunting. 370 00:24:23,796 --> 00:24:28,076 Speaker 1: As storytellers were always chasing after the elusive perfect endings, 371 00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 1: looking for that final note of closure. But as long 372 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:35,756 Speaker 1: as people remember, and as long as they're willing to 373 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: ask that most human of questions, what if, then there 374 00:24:41,236 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 1: is no end, not really, only more questions that spin 375 00:24:46,596 --> 00:25:04,476 Speaker 1: into the night. This episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid, 376 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:09,716 Speaker 1: Jesse m Hugh Taly Emlin, and Sonya Gurwit. It was 377 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 1: edited by Karen Chakerji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 378 00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:20,796 Speaker 1: Original music from Luis Gera, mastering by Sarah Bruger. Special 379 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: thanks to Owen Miller, Lucy Sullivan, Jake Flanagan, Sarah Nix, 380 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:28,956 Speaker 1: and Greta Cone. I'm Jake halpern