1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:14,645 Speaker 1: School of Humans. This podcast episode discusses historical events that 2 00:00:14,685 --> 00:00:24,965 Speaker 1: include physical abuse against children. Earlier this year, I drove 3 00:00:25,045 --> 00:00:30,725 Speaker 1: from Atlanta, where I live, to Montgomery, Alabama. It's about 4 00:00:30,765 --> 00:00:35,045 Speaker 1: a three hour drive, depending on traffic. I've been to 5 00:00:35,085 --> 00:00:40,365 Speaker 1: Montgomery plenty, but this time was different. In fact, I 6 00:00:40,405 --> 00:00:43,165 Speaker 1: wasn't going to the city of Montgomery, but to a 7 00:00:43,205 --> 00:00:49,045 Speaker 1: little unincorporated part of the county called Mount Meg's. I 8 00:00:49,125 --> 00:00:50,845 Speaker 1: was there to set foot on the grounds of an 9 00:00:50,845 --> 00:00:55,445 Speaker 1: old Alabama institution that I'd spent the last year investigating. 10 00:00:57,445 --> 00:01:01,845 Speaker 1: It was hot outside, over ninety degrees. I drove down 11 00:01:01,845 --> 00:01:05,885 Speaker 1: a long road looking for my destination, but other than 12 00:01:05,925 --> 00:01:08,805 Speaker 1: a few houses, it was mostly empty until you pull 13 00:01:08,925 --> 00:01:16,165 Speaker 1: up to the entrance. You know, it's a long, huge 14 00:01:16,205 --> 00:01:21,645 Speaker 1: stretch of land right by the highway in an area 15 00:01:21,725 --> 00:01:25,165 Speaker 1: of Montgomery where there's really not much, which is sort 16 00:01:25,165 --> 00:01:28,885 Speaker 1: of saying something because Montgomery isn't the most happened in 17 00:01:28,965 --> 00:01:33,005 Speaker 1: town anyway. And when you pull in on your right 18 00:01:33,245 --> 00:01:39,005 Speaker 1: is a huge stretch of like swampland filled with sticks 19 00:01:39,045 --> 00:01:43,245 Speaker 1: and scum and mud. Outside of the entrance to the 20 00:01:43,285 --> 00:01:49,285 Speaker 1: actual youth center, you just see gates and barbed wire 21 00:01:49,365 --> 00:01:57,405 Speaker 1: fence and it looks like a prison. So I drove 22 00:01:57,485 --> 00:02:00,885 Speaker 1: up the long driveway lined with trees. I drove past 23 00:02:00,885 --> 00:02:05,045 Speaker 1: the visitors building, past the swamp, and up to this 24 00:02:05,205 --> 00:02:09,285 Speaker 1: most double gait, the kind built to keep everyone out. 25 00:02:10,965 --> 00:02:13,445 Speaker 1: I rolled down my window and I asked the guard 26 00:02:13,565 --> 00:02:23,125 Speaker 1: if he would let me in. I'm Josie Duffie Rice. 27 00:02:23,885 --> 00:02:26,445 Speaker 1: I'm a writer and a journalist, and before that I 28 00:02:26,485 --> 00:02:29,765 Speaker 1: went to law school. I've spent my career focused on 29 00:02:29,805 --> 00:02:33,885 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system, and I've long been particularly interested 30 00:02:33,925 --> 00:02:37,725 Speaker 1: in how we treat children accused of crimes. I'm also 31 00:02:37,765 --> 00:02:40,645 Speaker 1: from the South. I grew up in Georgia, and a 32 00:02:40,645 --> 00:02:42,845 Speaker 1: few years ago my family and I moved back there. 33 00:02:43,725 --> 00:02:47,045 Speaker 1: And on this day, I was in Alabama outside a 34 00:02:47,125 --> 00:02:52,525 Speaker 1: juvenile correctional facility, trying to get in. Since it was 35 00:02:52,605 --> 00:02:56,165 Speaker 1: founded over a hundred years ago, this institution has had 36 00:02:56,205 --> 00:03:01,165 Speaker 1: many names. First, it was called the Alabama Industrial School 37 00:03:01,205 --> 00:03:06,845 Speaker 1: for Negro Boys, then in nineteen eleven, became the Alabama 38 00:03:06,885 --> 00:03:12,645 Speaker 1: Reform School for Juvenile Negro Lawbreakers. Eventually, after it went 39 00:03:12,725 --> 00:03:16,445 Speaker 1: co ed, it changed its name again to the Alabama 40 00:03:16,525 --> 00:03:21,445 Speaker 1: Industrial School for Negro Children. As you may have figured 41 00:03:21,485 --> 00:03:25,485 Speaker 1: from the names for most of its history, this facility 42 00:03:25,765 --> 00:03:31,165 Speaker 1: held only black kids. These days, it's technically named the 43 00:03:31,285 --> 00:03:35,525 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's Campus of the Alabama Department of Youth Services, 44 00:03:36,645 --> 00:03:42,645 Speaker 1: but almost everybody just calls it Mount Megs. Technically Mount 45 00:03:42,725 --> 00:03:46,685 Speaker 1: Meg's was a reform school for kids, but what I've 46 00:03:46,685 --> 00:03:51,285 Speaker 1: discovered is that it wasn't really a school at all. 47 00:03:51,885 --> 00:03:55,565 Speaker 1: Mount Megs with padded after swa the slave camp like 48 00:03:55,765 --> 00:03:59,845 Speaker 1: a plantation. We didn't have school, they didn't have anything. 49 00:03:59,925 --> 00:04:03,445 Speaker 1: It was just slave draw just played driving Black prison 50 00:04:03,525 --> 00:04:15,005 Speaker 1: for teams, penal column for children. This is Unreformed the 51 00:04:15,125 --> 00:04:36,925 Speaker 1: Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, Episode one, 52 00:04:37,925 --> 00:04:46,285 Speaker 1: the Lucky Ones. Before we talk about what happened at 53 00:04:46,285 --> 00:04:48,765 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's, we have to go back to a boy 54 00:04:48,845 --> 00:04:53,445 Speaker 1: named Lonnie in Birmingham, Alabama, in the early nineteen sixties. 55 00:04:57,805 --> 00:05:00,925 Speaker 1: In the Alabama summers, you can hear the whisper of 56 00:05:01,045 --> 00:05:05,205 Speaker 1: living things, the rustle of tiny creatures and the grass, 57 00:05:06,365 --> 00:05:10,925 Speaker 1: the hum of katie DIDs and crickets, the blue jays 58 00:05:10,965 --> 00:05:14,845 Speaker 1: flitting from one tree to another. There's a lot to 59 00:05:14,885 --> 00:05:20,645 Speaker 1: discover if you're willing to look. And as a kid, 60 00:05:21,005 --> 00:05:26,045 Speaker 1: Lonnie Holly was always looking on any given evening in 61 00:05:26,165 --> 00:05:30,365 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. Back when Lonnie was eleven, you might 62 00:05:30,405 --> 00:05:33,405 Speaker 1: have seen him in Birmingham, a young boy looking for 63 00:05:33,565 --> 00:05:36,485 Speaker 1: critters or some interesting piece of litter on the side 64 00:05:36,485 --> 00:05:40,805 Speaker 1: of the road. It was like an adventure, a child 65 00:05:40,965 --> 00:05:45,885 Speaker 1: on an adventure down the ditches on the creeks and 66 00:05:46,285 --> 00:05:51,885 Speaker 1: seeing the broken material. The closer you got to downtown, 67 00:05:52,725 --> 00:05:55,565 Speaker 1: you got a chance to see more and more and 68 00:05:55,645 --> 00:05:59,965 Speaker 1: more and more waste material that had been flushed down 69 00:06:00,045 --> 00:06:05,325 Speaker 1: the creek and the ditches. Lonnie was always finding some 70 00:06:05,645 --> 00:06:10,045 Speaker 1: unusual thing that someone else had discarded. He loved finding 71 00:06:10,085 --> 00:06:14,525 Speaker 1: worms and tadpoles. He had the mud soaked curiosity of 72 00:06:14,605 --> 00:06:17,805 Speaker 1: any eleven year old boy, and he did this often, 73 00:06:18,765 --> 00:06:27,565 Speaker 1: ran away to explore, to search. Lonnie had literally dozens 74 00:06:27,605 --> 00:06:31,045 Speaker 1: of siblings, but legend has it that he was his 75 00:06:31,125 --> 00:06:35,405 Speaker 1: mother's scrawniest child. And I'm the seventh of her twenty 76 00:06:35,405 --> 00:06:38,725 Speaker 1: seven children, but the last one that had to go 77 00:06:38,845 --> 00:06:44,085 Speaker 1: through the most abuse, one of twenty seven. But on 78 00:06:44,125 --> 00:06:48,365 Speaker 1: this night in nineteen sixty one, Lonnie is basically an orphan. 79 00:06:49,565 --> 00:06:51,485 Speaker 1: He lost touch with his family when he was a 80 00:06:51,525 --> 00:06:54,605 Speaker 1: toddler after a local dancer who was a friend of 81 00:06:54,645 --> 00:07:00,485 Speaker 1: his mother's, noticed how frail he was. This lady, she 82 00:07:00,645 --> 00:07:05,765 Speaker 1: was a burulette dancer at the fair ground, and that 83 00:07:05,925 --> 00:07:10,485 Speaker 1: she keep me and she could breath feed me, you know. 84 00:07:12,085 --> 00:07:14,605 Speaker 1: So the dancer took Lonnie in so she could feed him, 85 00:07:15,445 --> 00:07:19,925 Speaker 1: but then eventually she too was gone. In some tellings 86 00:07:19,925 --> 00:07:22,525 Speaker 1: of the story, the burlesque dancer left him with a 87 00:07:22,605 --> 00:07:27,565 Speaker 1: couple in exchange for a bottle of whiskey. That couple, 88 00:07:27,685 --> 00:07:32,005 Speaker 1: the mcilroys, owned a whiskey house, and they took Lonnie in. 89 00:07:33,325 --> 00:07:37,725 Speaker 1: Back then, he was known as Tonky macilroy. Latuki was 90 00:07:37,765 --> 00:07:41,405 Speaker 1: the one that was always being mistreated or whatever, but 91 00:07:41,725 --> 00:07:45,445 Speaker 1: in a sense, little TUCKI was always the one that 92 00:07:45,685 --> 00:07:51,165 Speaker 1: was kept sound. Lonnie was in that house for years. 93 00:07:51,885 --> 00:07:55,445 Speaker 1: Missus McIlroy was good to him. She became a surrogate mother. 94 00:07:56,245 --> 00:07:58,965 Speaker 1: Even now, Lonnie says that she loved him like he 95 00:07:59,045 --> 00:08:03,525 Speaker 1: was her own son. But still these weren't happy years. 96 00:08:04,405 --> 00:08:07,325 Speaker 1: He was alone so often, and mister McElroy was an 97 00:08:07,325 --> 00:08:12,125 Speaker 1: alcoholic and abusive. And it wasn't just him. There were 98 00:08:12,165 --> 00:08:15,885 Speaker 1: others around Lonnie who would beat him, sometimes badly enough 99 00:08:15,965 --> 00:08:20,445 Speaker 1: to land him in the hospital. Lonnie remembers one story 100 00:08:20,525 --> 00:08:23,085 Speaker 1: from when he was around four years old, when an 101 00:08:23,085 --> 00:08:26,605 Speaker 1: old man was at the whiskey house drunk. Lonnie was 102 00:08:26,605 --> 00:08:29,525 Speaker 1: eating a plate of food. Was gonna be kicking off 103 00:08:29,685 --> 00:08:33,925 Speaker 1: my plate, and I dropped the plate and crawled up 104 00:08:34,005 --> 00:08:38,685 Speaker 1: underneath the couch, and he kept reaching under there, and 105 00:08:38,725 --> 00:08:41,245 Speaker 1: I think I beat him on the armor on the 106 00:08:41,325 --> 00:08:45,605 Speaker 1: hand of something. The man was furious and he got 107 00:08:45,685 --> 00:08:50,445 Speaker 1: made and went over there and got the pokeone that 108 00:08:50,565 --> 00:08:54,005 Speaker 1: you strew up the hot colds and stuff with in 109 00:08:54,165 --> 00:08:59,885 Speaker 1: the heater, and shiwed the pokin in my heat and 110 00:09:00,485 --> 00:09:05,605 Speaker 1: put a hole in my head. The field enough and 111 00:09:05,645 --> 00:09:08,605 Speaker 1: they had to rush me to the horspital because I 112 00:09:08,765 --> 00:09:13,645 Speaker 1: was holling and screaming. That was the first incident of 113 00:09:13,645 --> 00:09:18,125 Speaker 1: me having to be involved will hospital, was to get 114 00:09:18,165 --> 00:09:23,365 Speaker 1: this pokeraon pulled out of my head. A few years later, 115 00:09:23,645 --> 00:09:29,045 Speaker 1: when Lonnie was seven, Missus McIlroy died. Mister McIlroy was 116 00:09:29,085 --> 00:09:34,445 Speaker 1: out as usual, running around with his other ladies. It 117 00:09:34,525 --> 00:09:38,285 Speaker 1: was unexpected, at least for Lonnie, and he didn't really 118 00:09:38,325 --> 00:09:41,285 Speaker 1: get it. No one had taught him anything about death, 119 00:09:41,925 --> 00:09:44,845 Speaker 1: so for days it was just him in her dead 120 00:09:44,885 --> 00:09:52,965 Speaker 1: body in the house alone. It wasn't until mister McIlroy 121 00:09:53,085 --> 00:09:57,885 Speaker 1: got home that Lonnie learned that she was dead. To god, 122 00:09:58,005 --> 00:10:00,805 Speaker 1: damn it, you don't killed my wife. And he was 123 00:10:01,045 --> 00:10:05,445 Speaker 1: so angry with me, and he just stopped beating me. 124 00:10:06,005 --> 00:10:08,325 Speaker 1: Lonnie ran out of the house as fast as he could. 125 00:10:09,125 --> 00:10:13,485 Speaker 1: I remembered grabbing my wagon Alfham under the house and 126 00:10:13,685 --> 00:10:18,845 Speaker 1: just busting out the fence. And then suddenly Lonnie was 127 00:10:18,925 --> 00:10:22,725 Speaker 1: hit by a car and dragged for blocks. And I 128 00:10:23,365 --> 00:10:27,685 Speaker 1: remember the car hitting me drugged me up a nap 129 00:10:28,005 --> 00:10:32,925 Speaker 1: underneath it. After three and a half months in a coma, 130 00:10:33,165 --> 00:10:37,005 Speaker 1: Lonnie woke up in the hospital. He didn't want to 131 00:10:37,005 --> 00:10:40,605 Speaker 1: go back to live with mister McElroy, but it was 132 00:10:40,725 --> 00:10:43,525 Speaker 1: kind of the only option he had nowhere else to go. 133 00:10:49,045 --> 00:10:53,085 Speaker 1: Lonnie got older and every so often he'd hear whispers 134 00:10:53,165 --> 00:10:57,325 Speaker 1: or rumors about his birth family. Someone told him that 135 00:10:57,325 --> 00:11:00,045 Speaker 1: his mother was living with his brothers and sisters out 136 00:11:00,045 --> 00:11:04,445 Speaker 1: by the Birmingham Airport. Lonnie wanted to find them, but 137 00:11:04,525 --> 00:11:08,125 Speaker 1: it was too vague, too impractical. It's not like a 138 00:11:08,165 --> 00:11:11,605 Speaker 1: young black boy could just knock on random doors asking 139 00:11:11,645 --> 00:11:14,685 Speaker 1: people if they'd seen his mother. All I could think 140 00:11:14,725 --> 00:11:19,925 Speaker 1: about every day, every hour, or my mama and my 141 00:11:20,005 --> 00:11:23,525 Speaker 1: mama having a bunch of children, and they lived at 142 00:11:23,605 --> 00:11:29,045 Speaker 1: a crosstown well where was a crosstown So for years 143 00:11:29,765 --> 00:11:33,485 Speaker 1: Lonnie coped with the life that he had. He waited 144 00:11:33,645 --> 00:11:37,005 Speaker 1: until after dark and then explored where he could when 145 00:11:37,085 --> 00:11:42,205 Speaker 1: he could. So no, it wasn't a happy life. It 146 00:11:42,245 --> 00:11:46,965 Speaker 1: wasn't care free or joyful, but he had his small pleasures, 147 00:11:47,445 --> 00:11:55,725 Speaker 1: like his adventures in the dishes, exploring moments of freedom, 148 00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:59,845 Speaker 1: until one night when even that was snatched away from him. 149 00:11:59,885 --> 00:12:03,285 Speaker 1: And this particularly evening her hey got all the way 150 00:12:03,325 --> 00:12:08,925 Speaker 1: to town. I was out doing carefew and that was 151 00:12:08,925 --> 00:12:12,645 Speaker 1: the reason enough for him to teching did jubuna. So 152 00:12:12,725 --> 00:12:15,645 Speaker 1: this was a common thing back then. You even see 153 00:12:15,645 --> 00:12:19,005 Speaker 1: it now sometimes actually, especially in the South, there were 154 00:12:19,045 --> 00:12:23,725 Speaker 1: curfews and laws against skipping school and loitering and congregating, 155 00:12:24,165 --> 00:12:27,885 Speaker 1: but almost always these laws were only enforced against black 156 00:12:27,925 --> 00:12:32,325 Speaker 1: people and Jim Crow Alabama, these tiny infractions led to 157 00:12:32,365 --> 00:12:37,005 Speaker 1: countless black children entangled in the criminal legal system, like Lonnie. 158 00:12:37,285 --> 00:12:40,525 Speaker 1: When he was eleven years old, the cops arrested him, 159 00:12:41,005 --> 00:12:43,365 Speaker 1: put him in the back of the cruiser, and took 160 00:12:43,405 --> 00:12:50,565 Speaker 1: him to jail for being out past curfew. Lonnie wasn't 161 00:12:50,605 --> 00:12:53,725 Speaker 1: the only black kid in the jail. He wasn't even 162 00:12:53,765 --> 00:12:57,045 Speaker 1: the only one in his cell. The others had been 163 00:12:57,125 --> 00:13:00,005 Speaker 1: arrested for their involvement in the civil rights movement that 164 00:13:00,165 --> 00:13:06,925 Speaker 1: was brewing in Alabama, especially in Birmingham. By the time 165 00:13:07,045 --> 00:13:12,925 Speaker 1: Lonnie got there, they've been planning their escape enjoining the 166 00:13:13,045 --> 00:13:15,765 Speaker 1: jailbreak didn't feel like much of a choice. Well, you 167 00:13:16,565 --> 00:13:20,165 Speaker 1: either broke out, I got your ass beat because they 168 00:13:20,285 --> 00:13:23,125 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna leave you behind and tell one. They had 169 00:13:23,165 --> 00:13:27,645 Speaker 1: this ridiculous plan that deering lights out, they'd somehow trick 170 00:13:27,685 --> 00:13:31,845 Speaker 1: a janitor into opening their cell door, steal his keys, 171 00:13:32,525 --> 00:13:36,925 Speaker 1: and make their great escape. Somehow it worked. We took 172 00:13:37,285 --> 00:13:41,845 Speaker 1: his key to his automobile and every time and ran 173 00:13:42,725 --> 00:13:55,245 Speaker 1: out the back interest of the juvenile. Juvenile the group 174 00:13:55,365 --> 00:13:58,525 Speaker 1: managed to drive away, their tires screeching in the rain, 175 00:13:59,405 --> 00:14:02,965 Speaker 1: but unfortunately their getaway driver wasn't as talented as he 176 00:14:03,085 --> 00:14:06,165 Speaker 1: let on. We didn't know how to drive real good, 177 00:14:07,085 --> 00:14:11,205 Speaker 1: so we was ribbing on the road and then all 178 00:14:11,245 --> 00:14:14,125 Speaker 1: of a sudden he went through on drake and hit 179 00:14:14,165 --> 00:14:17,925 Speaker 1: the telegram Poe. And once he had the Telegram Poe, 180 00:14:18,885 --> 00:14:31,005 Speaker 1: he had a rig. Within moments they heard sirens. They 181 00:14:31,045 --> 00:14:33,965 Speaker 1: took us right back to the juvenile put his back 182 00:14:34,005 --> 00:14:37,725 Speaker 1: in the sail, and early that morning we was loaded 183 00:14:37,805 --> 00:14:43,125 Speaker 1: up in this truck and took to this place called 184 00:14:43,725 --> 00:14:50,205 Speaker 1: Alabama in Duster School for Nigro Cheered. By age eleven, 185 00:14:50,565 --> 00:14:54,685 Speaker 1: Lonnie had already been separated from his family, endured beatings, 186 00:14:55,565 --> 00:14:59,365 Speaker 1: lost his surrogate mother, received a life threatening injury to 187 00:14:59,445 --> 00:15:03,925 Speaker 1: his head, been dragged underneath a truck, spent three months 188 00:15:03,965 --> 00:15:08,365 Speaker 1: in a coma, and suffered countless other abuses. But now 189 00:15:08,405 --> 00:15:10,965 Speaker 1: on the road to Mount Meg's, Lonnie was about to 190 00:15:11,125 --> 00:15:25,445 Speaker 1: enter some of the worst years of his life. About 191 00:15:25,445 --> 00:15:28,125 Speaker 1: a year ago, I got an email about Lonnie Holly. 192 00:15:29,245 --> 00:15:32,165 Speaker 1: Now I had never met Lonnie, but I come from 193 00:15:32,205 --> 00:15:35,925 Speaker 1: a family of art lovers, so I had heard about him. 194 00:15:36,085 --> 00:15:40,725 Speaker 1: Lonnie Bradley Holly, formerly Tonky the boy playing in the 195 00:15:40,765 --> 00:15:45,085 Speaker 1: Ditches in Birmingham in nineteen sixty one, is now a musician, 196 00:15:45,765 --> 00:15:51,325 Speaker 1: an arts educator, and most notably, an internationally renowned artist. 197 00:15:52,245 --> 00:15:56,405 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty eighty two, my works had been to 198 00:15:57,125 --> 00:16:01,245 Speaker 1: sixty four cities. My works had went to the Smithsonian. 199 00:16:01,965 --> 00:16:04,685 Speaker 1: Lonnie's art can be found in many other museums too, 200 00:16:05,525 --> 00:16:10,165 Speaker 1: including the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the National Gallery. 201 00:16:10,245 --> 00:16:12,925 Speaker 1: I spent time with him recently in a friend's home 202 00:16:13,045 --> 00:16:17,365 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and his work was everywhere. Hanging from the 203 00:16:17,445 --> 00:16:21,925 Speaker 1: ceiling was this incredible sculpture he made from wire, wood, paper, 204 00:16:21,965 --> 00:16:25,485 Speaker 1: and metal, or, as Lonnie puts it, all the things 205 00:16:25,485 --> 00:16:29,365 Speaker 1: that people throw away. On the countertop was a small, 206 00:16:29,405 --> 00:16:34,365 Speaker 1: beautiful sculpture made from sandstone. Lonnie is self taught through 207 00:16:34,405 --> 00:16:37,885 Speaker 1: and through. His art comes from the kind of things 208 00:16:37,925 --> 00:16:41,445 Speaker 1: he used to find in the ditches. Talking to him, 209 00:16:41,885 --> 00:16:44,725 Speaker 1: you sense that in his life, art and tragedy are 210 00:16:44,765 --> 00:16:48,245 Speaker 1: often inseparable. In fact, the first time he realized he 211 00:16:48,325 --> 00:16:50,725 Speaker 1: was making art, he was in his twenties. After the 212 00:16:50,805 --> 00:16:54,165 Speaker 1: death of his young niece and nephew, his family couldn't 213 00:16:54,165 --> 00:16:59,565 Speaker 1: afford headstones, so Lonnie offered to make them. I didn't 214 00:16:59,565 --> 00:17:07,285 Speaker 1: know anything about art or sculpture or did depict all 215 00:17:07,325 --> 00:17:12,885 Speaker 1: of those things. I learned after my sister two children 216 00:17:13,605 --> 00:17:19,125 Speaker 1: was buried and I started working with this material and 217 00:17:19,245 --> 00:17:23,925 Speaker 1: it was a sandstone. I was cutting different shapes and 218 00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:28,765 Speaker 1: making baby tombstones. It was a Tuskegee arm and came 219 00:17:28,845 --> 00:17:33,645 Speaker 1: by he lived it down the screet for my Grandpels say, 220 00:17:33,725 --> 00:17:40,605 Speaker 1: you know what you're doing. I said, no, sir, he said, 221 00:17:40,605 --> 00:17:44,045 Speaker 1: I've been almost all around the world and I've seen 222 00:17:44,205 --> 00:17:47,845 Speaker 1: a lot of things on he said, but death what 223 00:17:48,005 --> 00:17:53,485 Speaker 1: you are doing? He said, you're doing art. Fans of 224 00:17:53,565 --> 00:17:57,005 Speaker 1: Liney's art know that his hardships were his tours and 225 00:17:57,165 --> 00:18:02,085 Speaker 1: tribulations leave the foundation for all of his work. In fact, 226 00:18:02,205 --> 00:18:05,085 Speaker 1: it was those hardships that led to the email in 227 00:18:05,165 --> 00:18:07,965 Speaker 1: my box asking me if I was interested in helping 228 00:18:08,045 --> 00:18:11,685 Speaker 1: tell the story. The email wasn't about Lonnie's work or 229 00:18:11,725 --> 00:18:14,805 Speaker 1: his career. It was about the three years he spent 230 00:18:15,245 --> 00:18:20,045 Speaker 1: at the Alabama Industrial School for Negro children. There were 231 00:18:20,205 --> 00:18:24,405 Speaker 1: no educational facilities there. You can't stop, you can never 232 00:18:24,445 --> 00:18:26,805 Speaker 1: break the line, you can never slow down. If you do, 233 00:18:27,245 --> 00:18:31,085 Speaker 1: you we was being treated with dull man. I mean 234 00:18:31,165 --> 00:18:34,165 Speaker 1: boys got raped all the time. Amount me. You'd hit 235 00:18:34,245 --> 00:18:36,405 Speaker 1: him by the hundred, a hundred the water to tie 236 00:18:36,445 --> 00:18:39,445 Speaker 1: with a palace, and she comes down on your back 237 00:18:39,485 --> 00:18:44,245 Speaker 1: as hard as you can. Well. Avery also strengthen her day, 238 00:18:44,445 --> 00:18:47,485 Speaker 1: beating me to the print that I couldn't even walk. 239 00:18:47,525 --> 00:18:50,525 Speaker 1: I couldn't do nothing but crowd. She had hit me 240 00:18:50,845 --> 00:18:54,565 Speaker 1: in the head with a bottle in my head was swallowing. 241 00:18:55,005 --> 00:18:57,045 Speaker 1: She would make me stay on the stairs so I 242 00:18:57,085 --> 00:19:01,405 Speaker 1: wouldn't be seeing. You'll see these graves over to the side. 243 00:19:01,765 --> 00:19:03,725 Speaker 1: They won't heed. There's a lot of boys didn't even 244 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:11,725 Speaker 1: make it out amount me. Over the past few years, 245 00:19:12,005 --> 00:19:14,885 Speaker 1: we've heard more and more disturbing stories about places like 246 00:19:14,965 --> 00:19:20,365 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's, institutions for so called delinquent children, where miners 247 00:19:20,405 --> 00:19:25,045 Speaker 1: were brutally abused. These institutions have a long history in America. 248 00:19:25,245 --> 00:19:27,685 Speaker 1: For more than a century, children have been shipped off 249 00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:32,165 Speaker 1: to quote unquote reform schools. Some of them, like Mount Meg's, 250 00:19:32,405 --> 00:19:37,365 Speaker 1: are state run institutions. Others are expensive reform boarding schools 251 00:19:37,565 --> 00:19:40,805 Speaker 1: where the wealthiest and their wayward kids. But the thing 252 00:19:40,805 --> 00:19:44,565 Speaker 1: that they have in common is the abuse. Many kids 253 00:19:44,685 --> 00:19:48,925 Speaker 1: ended up dead. Mount Meg's was one of these places, 254 00:19:50,205 --> 00:19:54,205 Speaker 1: and yet it has a particularly unique origin story. It 255 00:19:54,245 --> 00:19:56,725 Speaker 1: was started in nineteen oh seven by the daughter of 256 00:19:56,765 --> 00:20:00,325 Speaker 1: an enslaved woman. It was an institution that was meant 257 00:20:00,325 --> 00:20:03,685 Speaker 1: to reform, to rehabilitate, to get black children out of 258 00:20:03,725 --> 00:20:07,245 Speaker 1: adult prisons. But then the state of Alabama took over 259 00:20:07,285 --> 00:20:11,325 Speaker 1: the school and it did just the opposite. Honestly, it's 260 00:20:11,325 --> 00:20:14,005 Speaker 1: hard to imagine how any kid could have emerged from 261 00:20:14,005 --> 00:20:18,045 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's unharmed. Much of Mount Meg's history is unknown, 262 00:20:18,765 --> 00:20:21,645 Speaker 1: especially the early years. Part of that is due to 263 00:20:21,685 --> 00:20:25,565 Speaker 1: poor record keeping, maybe to avoid oversight. Some of it 264 00:20:25,565 --> 00:20:28,285 Speaker 1: can also be chopped up to bad luck, since what 265 00:20:28,405 --> 00:20:30,725 Speaker 1: little did exist was burned in a fire in the 266 00:20:30,805 --> 00:20:35,965 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. But mostly it was probably just negligence or 267 00:20:36,445 --> 00:20:40,845 Speaker 1: general disregard for the lives of poor black children. Children 268 00:20:40,845 --> 00:20:44,485 Speaker 1: are really vulnerable, very vulnerable. They don't vote, they don't 269 00:20:44,525 --> 00:20:48,005 Speaker 1: like campaign contributions, they don't have political friends in high 270 00:20:48,045 --> 00:20:50,765 Speaker 1: places that can make things happen. They were totally at 271 00:20:50,805 --> 00:20:55,365 Speaker 1: the wild of adults. That's Denny Abbott. He's eighty three 272 00:20:55,445 --> 00:20:58,325 Speaker 1: years old now, but he was only twenty one when 273 00:20:58,325 --> 00:21:01,725 Speaker 1: he started working in youth corrections and visited Mount Meg's 274 00:21:01,765 --> 00:21:05,445 Speaker 1: for the first time. That was in nineteen sixty one, 275 00:21:06,085 --> 00:21:10,005 Speaker 1: the same year Lonnie was sent there. Danny is a 276 00:21:10,005 --> 00:21:14,205 Speaker 1: white guy, like most people working in corrections in Alabama, 277 00:21:14,645 --> 00:21:17,645 Speaker 1: and back then, he was responsible for taking both black 278 00:21:17,725 --> 00:21:23,525 Speaker 1: and white kids to their respective segregated reform schools. Immediately, 279 00:21:23,845 --> 00:21:27,565 Speaker 1: he noticed a disparity between the two. The white kids 280 00:21:27,565 --> 00:21:30,365 Speaker 1: had a good educational program and both of the boys 281 00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:34,205 Speaker 1: and girls. In the white schools, they had social services, 282 00:21:34,285 --> 00:21:39,365 Speaker 1: they had medical services, vocational rehab services, but Mount Megs, 283 00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:44,205 Speaker 1: Mountain Megs had none of those. Zero, not one. Picture 284 00:21:44,285 --> 00:21:49,565 Speaker 1: the worst environment for children that you possibly can and 285 00:21:49,805 --> 00:21:53,245 Speaker 1: Mountain Megs is at the top of that list. Nobody 286 00:21:53,285 --> 00:21:55,765 Speaker 1: got a fair shake at Mountain Megs, not one kid, 287 00:21:56,525 --> 00:22:00,525 Speaker 1: and it was a disgrace. Danny took this job when 288 00:22:00,565 --> 00:22:04,525 Speaker 1: he was fresh out of college. It was decent work, stable, 289 00:22:04,965 --> 00:22:08,125 Speaker 1: it came with a pension, but still he didn't like 290 00:22:08,205 --> 00:22:11,845 Speaker 1: what he saw at Mount Megs. It bothered him so 291 00:22:11,965 --> 00:22:14,765 Speaker 1: much so that he reported the conditions of the reformatory 292 00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:19,965 Speaker 1: numerous times to his superiors. Of course, nothing happened, and 293 00:22:20,125 --> 00:22:24,885 Speaker 1: there's a very simple reason why nothing happened. Nobody cared. 294 00:22:25,365 --> 00:22:29,325 Speaker 1: They were black kids. They almost didn't exist except to 295 00:22:29,325 --> 00:22:32,725 Speaker 1: do things for white people. So nobody cared and nothing 296 00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:36,725 Speaker 1: ever happened. Mount Megs was started in nineteen oh seven 297 00:22:36,965 --> 00:22:41,565 Speaker 1: and it still exists today, and honestly, every era of 298 00:22:41,605 --> 00:22:44,525 Speaker 1: its history could be its own series. But there is 299 00:22:44,565 --> 00:22:47,405 Speaker 1: a reason we are focused on Mount Meg's in the sixties. 300 00:22:48,125 --> 00:22:50,525 Speaker 1: The school sits right outside of what was not just 301 00:22:50,605 --> 00:22:54,085 Speaker 1: a battleground state, but a battleground city in the fight 302 00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:57,885 Speaker 1: for civil rights. Mount Megs is just a few miles 303 00:22:57,925 --> 00:23:00,525 Speaker 1: away from where Rosa Parks refused to get up from 304 00:23:00,525 --> 00:23:04,125 Speaker 1: her seat on the bus, where Martin Luther King was arrested, 305 00:23:04,685 --> 00:23:08,685 Speaker 1: where civil rights leaders like John Lewis marched from Selma. 306 00:23:08,725 --> 00:23:12,365 Speaker 1: And while much of America slowly started to improve throughout 307 00:23:12,405 --> 00:23:18,565 Speaker 1: the decade, Alabama refused. Mount Meg's was at its absolute worst. 308 00:23:19,925 --> 00:23:23,245 Speaker 1: That is until a few brave people tried to change 309 00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:26,765 Speaker 1: things for the kids there, and the civil rights movement 310 00:23:27,085 --> 00:23:42,205 Speaker 1: came to Mount Megs's doorstep. Whereas with the help of 311 00:23:42,325 --> 00:23:45,365 Speaker 1: Lonnie and Denny, we were able to find other children 312 00:23:45,365 --> 00:23:48,405 Speaker 1: who were sent to Mount Megs in the sixties. Throughout 313 00:23:48,405 --> 00:23:51,605 Speaker 1: this series, you'll hear from many former students talking about 314 00:23:51,645 --> 00:23:55,925 Speaker 1: their time there, including archival interviews recorded in the mid 315 00:23:56,005 --> 00:24:00,165 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and you'll hear from four survivors in particular. 316 00:24:01,245 --> 00:24:04,205 Speaker 1: Among them, they spent almost a whole decade at Mount Meg's. 317 00:24:05,085 --> 00:24:08,885 Speaker 1: Each year that one left, a new one joined. Lonnie 318 00:24:08,925 --> 00:24:11,005 Speaker 1: Holly was the first to be sent to Mount Megs. 319 00:24:11,725 --> 00:24:15,605 Speaker 1: There from nineteen sixty one to nineteen sixty four, Jenny 320 00:24:15,685 --> 00:24:18,565 Speaker 1: Knox was there from about nineteen sixty four to nineteen 321 00:24:18,605 --> 00:24:22,405 Speaker 1: sixty seven. Then there's Mary Stevens who was there from 322 00:24:22,485 --> 00:24:26,805 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven to nineteen sixty nine. And Johnny Bodley 323 00:24:27,285 --> 00:24:30,285 Speaker 1: who was also sent there in nineteen sixty seven and 324 00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:38,365 Speaker 1: stayed until nineteen seventy y. I stand but been tree 325 00:24:38,445 --> 00:24:42,005 Speaker 1: right there, that's where I have a breakfast. I stand 326 00:24:42,045 --> 00:24:46,085 Speaker 1: any figs. This is Mary Stevens. I don't know. She's 327 00:24:46,125 --> 00:24:49,445 Speaker 1: a soft spoken woman, a mother who surrounds herself with 328 00:24:49,525 --> 00:24:53,565 Speaker 1: photos of her children. Mary is a gardener, and these 329 00:24:53,645 --> 00:24:56,645 Speaker 1: days she enjoys the fruit trees and plants in her 330 00:24:56,685 --> 00:25:02,125 Speaker 1: garden in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I love figs. They're just there 331 00:25:02,125 --> 00:25:05,085 Speaker 1: coming out. This is a plum tree. That's a lot 332 00:25:05,085 --> 00:25:10,445 Speaker 1: of plum have fallen. All have strawberries. As a matter 333 00:25:10,485 --> 00:25:13,885 Speaker 1: of fact, my little one, the day that he came 334 00:25:14,005 --> 00:25:18,005 Speaker 1: home may be four, the strawberries were blown. And that 335 00:25:18,165 --> 00:25:21,885 Speaker 1: was Mary is talking about one of her younger sons. 336 00:25:22,725 --> 00:25:25,765 Speaker 1: Her biological children are all grown up now, and a 337 00:25:25,805 --> 00:25:28,525 Speaker 1: few years ago she adopted two boys. And this is 338 00:25:28,565 --> 00:25:34,925 Speaker 1: a Georgia plum tree. Listening to Mary, you can hear 339 00:25:35,005 --> 00:25:37,845 Speaker 1: in her voice, the pride and joy in her home. 340 00:25:38,725 --> 00:25:41,685 Speaker 1: She's carved out this quiet life for herself and her children. 341 00:25:42,845 --> 00:25:45,605 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine her at a place like Mount Meg's, 342 00:25:46,405 --> 00:25:49,565 Speaker 1: but in the late nineteen sixties she spent eighteen months 343 00:25:49,605 --> 00:25:54,565 Speaker 1: at the institution. In nineteen sixty eight, Mary and four 344 00:25:54,605 --> 00:25:57,485 Speaker 1: other black girls decided to run away from Mount Meg's, 345 00:25:58,445 --> 00:26:00,765 Speaker 1: but they didn't manage to get very far before they 346 00:26:00,765 --> 00:26:04,365 Speaker 1: were caught. They were picked up by police and brought 347 00:26:04,405 --> 00:26:08,605 Speaker 1: to the juvenile detention center. But it just so happened 348 00:26:09,045 --> 00:26:12,965 Speaker 1: that this detention center in Montgomery was also where Denny's 349 00:26:13,005 --> 00:26:18,125 Speaker 1: office was. Runaways from Mount Meg's were not unusual. Desperate 350 00:26:18,205 --> 00:26:21,085 Speaker 1: kids ran away all of the time, but this time 351 00:26:21,845 --> 00:26:26,325 Speaker 1: these girls insisted on speaking to someone in charge. That 352 00:26:26,565 --> 00:26:37,085 Speaker 1: someone was Denny and that meeting would change everything. After 353 00:26:37,205 --> 00:26:40,085 Speaker 1: connecting with Lonnie and Mary, we were able to find 354 00:26:40,125 --> 00:26:45,605 Speaker 1: other survivors of Mount Meg's. Jenny Knox lives in Montgomery. 355 00:26:45,925 --> 00:26:49,005 Speaker 1: She's seventy now, and when we went to her house, 356 00:26:49,525 --> 00:26:54,165 Speaker 1: she opened the door dressed in her Sunday best. I 357 00:26:54,245 --> 00:26:58,245 Speaker 1: was born in the fifties, and that's thou I light. 358 00:26:58,805 --> 00:27:02,605 Speaker 1: This one is a red and white flower dress. Amma 359 00:27:02,685 --> 00:27:07,685 Speaker 1: red Flower, build Amma sander shoes over there with the 360 00:27:07,765 --> 00:27:10,805 Speaker 1: glitter and my necklaces and stuff, and so I just 361 00:27:10,885 --> 00:27:15,485 Speaker 1: wanted to dress up for you guys. Jenny is extremely 362 00:27:15,525 --> 00:27:20,445 Speaker 1: welcoming a great host. Jenny is also a devout Christian, 363 00:27:20,805 --> 00:27:22,765 Speaker 1: and one of the first things you notice when you 364 00:27:22,765 --> 00:27:26,165 Speaker 1: walk into her house, other than the countless family photos, 365 00:27:26,925 --> 00:27:31,005 Speaker 1: is her large collection of Bibles. Her favorite scripture is 366 00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:34,925 Speaker 1: about mercy, something she was searching for when she was 367 00:27:34,965 --> 00:27:39,565 Speaker 1: serving time at Mount Meg's. Not just once, but twice. 368 00:27:40,885 --> 00:27:46,125 Speaker 1: My favorite scripture was what got me through each day. 369 00:27:47,325 --> 00:27:51,165 Speaker 1: It Psalms fifty one. It starts off by saying, have 370 00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:56,445 Speaker 1: mercy upon me, Oh God, according to thy loving kindness, 371 00:27:56,725 --> 00:28:01,645 Speaker 1: according to the multitudes of thy timber mercies, blot out 372 00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:07,005 Speaker 1: much transgressions. Why should meet, thirdly from my iniquities in clears, 373 00:28:07,005 --> 00:28:11,925 Speaker 1: I mean for my sins. I acknowledge my transgressions and sins. 374 00:28:12,325 --> 00:28:32,285 Speaker 1: Goddamn God, Damn godam. This is Johnny Bodley. He also 375 00:28:32,445 --> 00:28:35,445 Speaker 1: was at Mount Meg's in the nineteen sixties. We recently 376 00:28:35,485 --> 00:28:38,205 Speaker 1: went to his hometown, about an hour west from where 377 00:28:38,245 --> 00:28:42,325 Speaker 1: Jenny lives in Selma, Alabama, to a community center called 378 00:28:42,445 --> 00:28:46,245 Speaker 1: by the River Center for Humanity. Johnny, who plays the 379 00:28:46,325 --> 00:28:49,565 Speaker 1: keyboard and the guitar, performed several of his songs there. 380 00:28:50,645 --> 00:28:54,005 Speaker 1: Johnny spent a couple of decades in Boston as a musician. 381 00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:58,485 Speaker 1: I was in a major popular R and B group 382 00:28:58,645 --> 00:29:02,525 Speaker 1: band up there called the Hypnotics. I was in Boston. 383 00:29:02,605 --> 00:29:06,685 Speaker 1: You know what I was. I had become I'm pretty popular, 384 00:29:06,845 --> 00:29:08,925 Speaker 1: you know, because of my green adds. A lot of 385 00:29:09,005 --> 00:29:11,685 Speaker 1: girls have liked it me. You know, if you didn't 386 00:29:11,725 --> 00:29:14,565 Speaker 1: catch that, Johnny says, the reason he's so popular with 387 00:29:14,685 --> 00:29:18,765 Speaker 1: women is because of his bright green eyes. After Boston, 388 00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:23,205 Speaker 1: he moved back to Selma. Now Johnny busks almost daily 389 00:29:23,285 --> 00:29:27,845 Speaker 1: in Selma. That got Daniel Alabama. I became a church musician, 390 00:29:28,285 --> 00:29:32,445 Speaker 1: you know, play for three churches, you know, piano player, 391 00:29:32,925 --> 00:29:37,005 Speaker 1: things that I thought I would never do. He plays 392 00:29:37,125 --> 00:29:40,085 Speaker 1: Marvin Gay and not King Cole and Billy Holliday on 393 00:29:40,165 --> 00:29:43,845 Speaker 1: his Yamaha keyboard or strums on his guitar. But for 394 00:29:43,925 --> 00:29:47,285 Speaker 1: the last few years, his main focus has been educating 395 00:29:47,365 --> 00:29:50,245 Speaker 1: local youth. I speak throughout the state of Alabama and 396 00:29:50,285 --> 00:29:53,845 Speaker 1: other places to young people. You know about Hiba's prevention 397 00:29:53,885 --> 00:29:57,405 Speaker 1: because of the hfba's prevented specialists for a long time. 398 00:29:57,845 --> 00:29:59,445 Speaker 1: You know, That's why. That's how a lot of young 399 00:29:59,525 --> 00:30:02,565 Speaker 1: people know me. Johnny's different than he was when he 400 00:30:02,685 --> 00:30:07,005 Speaker 1: was younger. He's more peaceful now, but trying to repair 401 00:30:07,165 --> 00:30:09,285 Speaker 1: the damage that was done to him at Mount Megs 402 00:30:10,005 --> 00:30:13,165 Speaker 1: was a long road. Mount Meegs makes you worse, makes 403 00:30:13,205 --> 00:30:18,245 Speaker 1: you worse. Mount Meegs gave you achilling mentality. Mount meeds 404 00:30:18,365 --> 00:30:25,685 Speaker 1: to a gas into murderers. In this mentality that Johnny's 405 00:30:25,685 --> 00:30:30,365 Speaker 1: describing instilled in him at Mount Megs, it upended the 406 00:30:30,485 --> 00:30:45,605 Speaker 1: lives of countless black children in Alabama. Last year, when 407 00:30:45,605 --> 00:30:48,405 Speaker 1: I first heard about Mount Megs, there was one thing 408 00:30:48,485 --> 00:30:51,765 Speaker 1: that really caught my attention. It was the way that 409 00:30:51,845 --> 00:30:56,685 Speaker 1: this institution shaped the rest of people's lives. Lonnie Holly, 410 00:30:56,965 --> 00:31:01,685 Speaker 1: Jenny Knox, Johnny Bodley, and Mary Stevens are still, even 411 00:31:01,765 --> 00:31:05,245 Speaker 1: into their late sixties and seventies, dealing with the psychological 412 00:31:05,525 --> 00:31:09,725 Speaker 1: emotional trauma of their time at Mount max. It been 413 00:31:09,845 --> 00:31:12,445 Speaker 1: with me all of my life. I've never been able 414 00:31:12,485 --> 00:31:17,245 Speaker 1: to get the hardest part of that out of my life. 415 00:31:18,005 --> 00:31:21,245 Speaker 1: I was told in Mount Megs that you know, we 416 00:31:21,245 --> 00:31:23,885 Speaker 1: will never be anything we will never amount to anything. 417 00:31:24,565 --> 00:31:27,485 Speaker 1: We wasn't going to Mount to anything. You know, I've 418 00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:31,645 Speaker 1: said to myself something that had to be wrong with them. 419 00:31:33,085 --> 00:31:37,925 Speaker 1: I don't understand what happened. And they're also all things 420 00:31:38,005 --> 00:31:42,645 Speaker 1: considered the lucky ones. For countless others, the trauma Mount 421 00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:47,365 Speaker 1: Mags inflicted on them irreparably derailed their lives. Many are 422 00:31:47,445 --> 00:31:51,005 Speaker 1: locked up serving life sentences or even on death row, 423 00:31:51,805 --> 00:31:54,925 Speaker 1: and others have been executed. Most of the gas that 424 00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,445 Speaker 1: I knew it was in my Mags a deceased now 425 00:31:58,205 --> 00:32:02,845 Speaker 1: and Soma doing life in prison. Song was electecuted, and 426 00:32:02,925 --> 00:32:06,405 Speaker 1: it's said, how are you one of the most violable 427 00:32:06,445 --> 00:32:10,245 Speaker 1: person that you would ever have in your life? And 428 00:32:10,845 --> 00:32:14,525 Speaker 1: those characterisms you will be stealing me when I was 429 00:32:14,565 --> 00:32:18,245 Speaker 1: a tweer of thirteen year child in Mount May's reformatory. 430 00:32:20,125 --> 00:32:23,565 Speaker 1: That is Johnny mack Young. He's serving life in prison 431 00:32:23,645 --> 00:32:28,205 Speaker 1: without possibility for parole for murder. We'll spend some time 432 00:32:28,245 --> 00:32:31,165 Speaker 1: with him later in the series. His story echoes the 433 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:38,045 Speaker 1: story of so many former attendees of Mount Meg's. I've 434 00:32:38,085 --> 00:32:42,365 Speaker 1: been fascinated by, consumed by even the story of Mount 435 00:32:42,485 --> 00:32:45,445 Speaker 1: Meg's for about a year now. In some ways that's 436 00:32:45,565 --> 00:32:48,925 Speaker 1: pretty on brand for me, given that my professional focus 437 00:32:49,085 --> 00:32:53,045 Speaker 1: is the criminal legal system. But in other ways, it's 438 00:32:53,085 --> 00:32:56,005 Speaker 1: a little different than what I usually do. I tend 439 00:32:56,085 --> 00:32:59,325 Speaker 1: to focus on things that have happened recently or are 440 00:32:59,405 --> 00:33:04,165 Speaker 1: happening right now. But this story, the one we're going 441 00:33:04,245 --> 00:33:07,925 Speaker 1: to tell you, it largely takes place a few decades ago, 442 00:33:08,645 --> 00:33:12,605 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. But the more time we spent 443 00:33:12,685 --> 00:33:17,045 Speaker 1: on this story, talking to people, sorting through archives, putting 444 00:33:17,085 --> 00:33:20,205 Speaker 1: the puzzle pieces together, the more we realize that this 445 00:33:20,525 --> 00:33:25,285 Speaker 1: is in fact a story about today. After all, at 446 00:33:25,325 --> 00:33:29,565 Speaker 1: this very moment, Mount Meg's is still in operation. This 447 00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:32,285 Speaker 1: is a story about the people who were children back 448 00:33:32,365 --> 00:33:36,245 Speaker 1: then and who they became, but it's also a story 449 00:33:36,445 --> 00:33:39,525 Speaker 1: about the ones that are children now in the future 450 00:33:39,645 --> 00:33:44,285 Speaker 1: they face. I was surprised and a bit ashamed that 451 00:33:44,405 --> 00:33:47,685 Speaker 1: I'd never even heard of Mount Megs. I've spent a 452 00:33:47,725 --> 00:33:50,445 Speaker 1: fair amount of time in Montgomery. One of my best 453 00:33:50,525 --> 00:33:54,165 Speaker 1: friends from law school lives there. Her name is Rachel Judge, 454 00:33:54,605 --> 00:33:58,325 Speaker 1: and she's a federal defender now, meaning she represents defendants 455 00:33:58,445 --> 00:34:02,285 Speaker 1: in federal court. But before this, she spent almost a 456 00:34:02,405 --> 00:34:06,085 Speaker 1: decade working in the Alabama state court system. As an 457 00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:10,125 Speaker 1: attorney at the Equal Justice Initiative. She spent her whole 458 00:34:10,205 --> 00:34:16,005 Speaker 1: career representing people facing the most severe punishments. Some of 459 00:34:16,085 --> 00:34:18,885 Speaker 1: her clients were kids when they were sentenced to life 460 00:34:18,965 --> 00:34:23,245 Speaker 1: without parole. Many of them spent years of their childhoods 461 00:34:23,285 --> 00:34:29,325 Speaker 1: in adult prison. Others are on death row. So I 462 00:34:29,405 --> 00:34:31,525 Speaker 1: reached out to her to see what she had to 463 00:34:31,565 --> 00:34:36,565 Speaker 1: say about it. I wanted to ask you a quick 464 00:34:36,685 --> 00:34:40,885 Speaker 1: question about a project I'm working on because I thought 465 00:34:40,925 --> 00:34:43,285 Speaker 1: you might have some insight. Do you have a second 466 00:34:43,405 --> 00:34:47,645 Speaker 1: to talk? Yeah, okay, great. Have you heard of a 467 00:34:48,845 --> 00:34:52,845 Speaker 1: place called Mount Meg's. Oh yeah, I mean that's just 468 00:34:52,965 --> 00:34:55,645 Speaker 1: right outside of Montgomery, right, you're talking about that one, Yeah, 469 00:34:55,845 --> 00:35:00,245 Speaker 1: the like institution for kids. Honestly, I hadn't heard of 470 00:35:00,285 --> 00:35:03,605 Speaker 1: it for a minute. I always saw the signs driving 471 00:35:03,685 --> 00:35:06,685 Speaker 1: into Montgomery. But then I had client, one of my 472 00:35:06,845 --> 00:35:10,085 Speaker 1: clients who was sentenced to light without the role as 473 00:35:10,125 --> 00:35:13,245 Speaker 1: a kid. He spent time there in the late eighties. 474 00:35:13,405 --> 00:35:16,565 Speaker 1: So I think tragically, that is a place that ends 475 00:35:16,605 --> 00:35:18,605 Speaker 1: up feeding a lot of kids into the adult system, 476 00:35:18,725 --> 00:35:20,885 Speaker 1: and then a number of them even end up on 477 00:35:21,005 --> 00:35:25,725 Speaker 1: Alabama's death Row. A lot of kids who spent time 478 00:35:25,805 --> 00:35:30,325 Speaker 1: there and were likely abused there right then ended up, 479 00:35:30,765 --> 00:35:34,165 Speaker 1: like you said, serving life without parole sentences or even 480 00:35:34,245 --> 00:35:36,845 Speaker 1: on death row. So it's like crazy to hear you 481 00:35:36,885 --> 00:35:39,565 Speaker 1: say that. Well, I had a client. He spoke about 482 00:35:39,765 --> 00:35:44,445 Speaker 1: being shackled on his hands and feet and his waist 483 00:35:44,725 --> 00:35:47,005 Speaker 1: twenty four hours as day, for days at a time, 484 00:35:47,045 --> 00:35:50,925 Speaker 1: and that's right now, that's twenty I'm sure it was 485 00:35:50,965 --> 00:35:54,245 Speaker 1: like twenty fourteen something like that. I can't what it 486 00:35:54,365 --> 00:35:57,525 Speaker 1: was like in the sixties and seventies. To imagine it 487 00:35:58,125 --> 00:36:03,405 Speaker 1: decades ago, it's pretty unfathomable. We've been trying to figure 488 00:36:03,445 --> 00:36:05,765 Speaker 1: out how to get into the Mountains campus for over 489 00:36:05,885 --> 00:36:10,805 Speaker 1: a year, but we basically got nowhere. Especially given COVID, 490 00:36:11,645 --> 00:36:14,885 Speaker 1: no one was willing to let us in. So eventually 491 00:36:14,885 --> 00:36:17,885 Speaker 1: I just decided to go on the off chance that 492 00:36:17,965 --> 00:36:20,125 Speaker 1: I could just manage to talk my way in once 493 00:36:20,165 --> 00:36:25,685 Speaker 1: I got there. But unsurprisingly my plan didn't work. Kay, 494 00:36:26,485 --> 00:36:29,285 Speaker 1: I've been working on a project about the Mount Megs 495 00:36:29,325 --> 00:36:31,245 Speaker 1: and the sixties, and I was just hoping I could 496 00:36:31,285 --> 00:36:33,485 Speaker 1: see the campus. Is there a way we could just 497 00:36:33,605 --> 00:36:40,165 Speaker 1: drive around it? So I pulled over outside the gate 498 00:36:40,765 --> 00:36:43,845 Speaker 1: and walked around a little. I couldn't stop thinking about 499 00:36:43,885 --> 00:36:48,805 Speaker 1: the thousands of children, mostly black children, who'd been stuck here, 500 00:36:49,405 --> 00:36:53,165 Speaker 1: especially back in the nineteen sixties. How did it happen 501 00:36:53,685 --> 00:36:56,085 Speaker 1: and what did it take to make the abuse stop? 502 00:36:58,085 --> 00:37:00,645 Speaker 1: In this season of Unreformed, we look at what Mount 503 00:37:00,725 --> 00:37:03,085 Speaker 1: Meg's intended to be when it was founded in nineteen 504 00:37:03,125 --> 00:37:06,205 Speaker 1: oh seven and the nightmare that it had been actually became. 505 00:37:07,765 --> 00:37:09,725 Speaker 1: This is a story of the abuse suffered by the 506 00:37:09,805 --> 00:37:14,485 Speaker 1: children trapped there and what happened after five girls escaped 507 00:37:14,925 --> 00:37:17,645 Speaker 1: and found someone who decided to do something about it. 508 00:37:21,525 --> 00:37:27,485 Speaker 1: This season Unreformed, they was literally bent over with their 509 00:37:27,645 --> 00:37:31,885 Speaker 1: hands pulling grass. This the holloway laid him down right 510 00:37:31,925 --> 00:37:34,365 Speaker 1: in front of everybody and almost beat him to death. 511 00:37:34,885 --> 00:37:38,045 Speaker 1: Their slogan was lifting as we climbed, this idea that 512 00:37:38,485 --> 00:37:41,125 Speaker 1: as you climb a ladder, those folk who were at 513 00:37:41,165 --> 00:37:45,045 Speaker 1: the bottom are still yours. This model actually worked in 514 00:37:45,165 --> 00:37:48,245 Speaker 1: the case of a Satchel page. I backed up, and 515 00:37:48,365 --> 00:37:53,085 Speaker 1: I kept backing up, and I stopped running. I was 516 00:37:53,165 --> 00:37:57,085 Speaker 1: not going back without telling somebody, well scoring on with 517 00:37:57,325 --> 00:38:00,085 Speaker 1: me now. I think, you know what, I can't be 518 00:38:00,245 --> 00:38:04,125 Speaker 1: the kind of father to my own kids if I 519 00:38:04,245 --> 00:38:07,325 Speaker 1: walk away from those girls. I was this liberal Jewish 520 00:38:07,365 --> 00:38:09,725 Speaker 1: kid coming down from the North, and here I am 521 00:38:09,805 --> 00:38:12,125 Speaker 1: in Montgomery, Alabama, doing my thing, and I'm going to 522 00:38:12,285 --> 00:38:16,445 Speaker 1: file civil rights cases the absolute denial of basic and 523 00:38:16,645 --> 00:38:21,845 Speaker 1: fundamental human rights to Negro children who are incroc Writing 524 00:38:22,165 --> 00:38:27,045 Speaker 1: in a concentration camp at Mountain Meg's Alaame gave me 525 00:38:27,045 --> 00:38:29,205 Speaker 1: in a foundation for everything that I am, all that 526 00:38:29,325 --> 00:38:30,965 Speaker 1: I am now as a thought of a mound me, 527 00:38:31,445 --> 00:38:33,685 Speaker 1: all that I would be would always be a pout 528 00:38:33,725 --> 00:38:40,605 Speaker 1: of the mound me unreformed. The Story of the Alabama 529 00:38:40,645 --> 00:38:43,565 Speaker 1: Industrial School for Negro Children is a production of School 530 00:38:43,565 --> 00:38:49,805 Speaker 1: of Humans and iHeartMedia. This episode was written by Taylor Bond, 531 00:38:49,885 --> 00:38:53,525 Speaker 1: Lastlie and me Josie Uffie Race. Our script supervisor is 532 00:38:53,525 --> 00:38:57,045 Speaker 1: Florence Burrow Adams and our producer is Gabbie Watts. We 533 00:38:57,165 --> 00:39:01,085 Speaker 1: had additional writing and production support from Sherry Scott. Executive 534 00:39:01,125 --> 00:39:05,245 Speaker 1: producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley, Brandon Barr, Matt Ournette, 535 00:39:05,285 --> 00:39:09,405 Speaker 1: and sound design and mix is by Jesse Niswaller. Music 536 00:39:09,525 --> 00:39:12,165 Speaker 1: is by Ben Soli, with recordings courtesy of the Alabama 537 00:39:12,245 --> 00:39:15,605 Speaker 1: Center for Traditional Culture. Special thanks to Alabama Department of 538 00:39:15,685 --> 00:39:19,285 Speaker 1: Archives and History, Michael Harriet, Floyd Hall, Kevin Nutt, Van Nuker, 539 00:39:19,405 --> 00:39:21,765 Speaker 1: and all of the survivors of Mount Meg's willing to 540 00:39:21,845 --> 00:39:24,565 Speaker 1: share their story. If you are someone you know attended 541 00:39:24,565 --> 00:39:26,765 Speaker 1: Mount Megs and would like to connect with us, please 542 00:39:26,845 --> 00:39:31,045 Speaker 1: email Mountmegs Podcast at gmail dot com. That's mt M 543 00:39:31,125 --> 00:39:52,645 Speaker 1: e i g S Podcast at gmail dot com. School 544 00:39:52,685 --> 00:39:53,165 Speaker 1: of Humans