1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: Hey, lady, is doctor dom here. If you like this

2
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 1: show and you want to make your own, let me

3
00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,840
Speaker 1: tell you about the free platform Anchor. It's a creation

4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 1: tool that allows you to record and edit your podcast

5
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,280
Speaker 1: right from your phone or computer. You can add songs

6
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 1: from Spotify and create any type of content that you

7
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: are looking for. Anchor will distribute it all for you

8
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,440
Speaker 1: so it can be heard on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.

9
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: Download the free Anchor app or go to anchor dot

10
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 1: fm to get started.

11
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,199
Speaker 2: On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.

12
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,520
Speaker 3: Because what happens is when you're in a narcissistic relationship,

13
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,800
Speaker 3: you get so pulled away from who you are you

14
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 3: don't really really get to learn what are your preferences.

15
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 3: You want thin cross or thick crust. You're so used

16
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,000
Speaker 3: to ordering what the narcissist wants, and eating what the

17
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 3: narcissist wants, and having sex the way the narcissist wants,

18
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 3: and watching the movies the narcissist wants, you forget that

19
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,600
Speaker 3: you actually like foreign film homes, that you actually prefer

20
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,600
Speaker 3: thin crust pizza, that you actually like hiking, and you

21
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,039
Speaker 3: don't necessarily want to go to the gym and you

22
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,360
Speaker 3: then plant your flag and you get to know your preferences.

23
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 3: So the next person who meets you, you're like, yeah,

24
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,280
Speaker 3: that'll be Thin Crust. And this weekend, I'm taking a hike.

25
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,680
Speaker 3: You want to join me instead of doing something on

26
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 3: someone else's terms.

27
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 2: Today's episode is sure to provide you with motivation, inspiration,

28
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 2: or a fresh perspective. If you have any AHA moments

29
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 2: or appreciate anything from this episode, please leave us a

30
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,520
Speaker 2: review to let us know we're on the right track. Also,

31
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,959
Speaker 2: we release episodes every Friday, so be sure to subscribe

32
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,759
Speaker 2: on iTunes and visit cultivatingheirspace dot com to access our

33
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 2: exclusive after show and other bonus content from the Patreon tab.

34
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:56,480
Speaker 4: Welcome to Cultivating her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting

35
00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 4: women like you. We're your hosts, Dominique Bussard, a college

36
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,919
Speaker 4: professor and psychologist.

37
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 2: And Terry Lomax, a techie and motivational speaker. In a

38
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 2: world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood, please

39
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 2: join us as we initiate authentic conversations on everything from

40
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 2: five roids to fake friends, and create a safe space

41
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,919
Speaker 2: where black women can just be.

42
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 1: Hey, Lady's doctor. Dom here from the Cultivating her Space podcast.

43
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: Do you have a burning question you're dying to get

44
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: feedback on? Do you want an unbiased perspective on a

45
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 1: situation you're facing. If so, visit cultivatinghirspace dot com and

46
00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 1: click ask doctor Dom under the start here option. Every Tuesday,

47
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,800
Speaker 1: I'll choose a few questions and answer them at random.

48
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 2: All right, lady, we are so excited today because in

49
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 2: Cultivating her Space we have a return guest. It was

50
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 2: one of the episodes that you told us that you loved.

51
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 2: We had doctor Romney Dravasla here for season six, episode seven,

52
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 2: and we talked about being raised by a narcissist, and

53
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 2: you loved that episode. So we decided to have doctor

54
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 2: Romney back, and she agreed to talk to us about

55
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 2: how to finally leave your narcissistic partner. If this is

56
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,680
Speaker 2: your first time tuning in, let's tell you a little

57
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,080
Speaker 2: bit about doctor Romney Davosla. She is a licensed clinical

58
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 2: psychologist in Los Angeles, California, and Professor of Psychology at

59
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 2: California State University, Los Angeles, and the founder and CEO

60
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 2: of Luna Education Training and Consulting, a company that offers

61
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 2: a range of programs focused on educating survivors, clinicians, coaches,

62
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 2: and businesses on the impacts of narcissism on health, wellness

63
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 2: and functioning. Her work has been featured at South by Southwes,

64
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 2: TEDx and on a wide range of media platforms including

65
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 2: Red Table Talk, The Today's Show, Oxygen, Investigation, Discovery, Bravo.

66
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,720
Speaker 2: The list goes on and on, and she is also

67
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 2: a featured expert on the digital media mental health platform

68
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 2: med Circle. Doctor Romney, welcome back, welcome.

69
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,039
Speaker 3: Back, Thank you so much for having me.

70
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 2: You are so welcome. We're super excited, thank you.

71
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,359
Speaker 5: We can't wait to dive into this conversation. And so

72
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 5: our quote of the day narcissists will destroy your life,

73
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 5: erode your self esteem, and do it with such stealth

74
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,880
Speaker 5: as to make you feel that you are the one

75
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 5: that's letting them down. All right. That quote, to me,

76
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:56,120
Speaker 5: I think kind of sets the stage for this conversation

77
00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:02,479
Speaker 5: today in terms of being able to really understand one

78
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 5: kind of how to recognize a narcissistic partner, because that

79
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 5: stealthiness is I think that's the thing that can get

80
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 5: us caught up. But then more importantly, how we can

81
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 5: navigate out of that relationship when we're ready to.

82
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 3: So. With regard to the sort of stealthiness, I think

83
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 3: that sometimes we actually may be giving narcissistic people more

84
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 3: credit than they deserve. We sort of view them as

85
00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,599
Speaker 3: these grand chess masters and people who are able to

86
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 3: play people so perfectly, when in fact it's just their

87
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,760
Speaker 3: raging insecurity and their utter lack of empathy for other

88
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 3: people and their entitlement, which means they will do and

89
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,599
Speaker 3: say things that are so self serving and so manipulative

90
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,680
Speaker 3: that it's not a normal part of the wheelhouse for

91
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,560
Speaker 3: everybody else. So by that I mean that, you know,

92
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,920
Speaker 3: when we really think about true cunning, calculated, cold, almost

93
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 3: villainous ability to play other people, then we're talking about

94
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 3: a psychopath. Narcissist is not nearly as well honed a

95
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 3: fighting machine. They just tend to want what they want

96
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 3: and need what they need, and because they're insecure, they

97
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 3: just they can't be without it. So it's almost like

98
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 3: they're motivated as much by anxiety and panic as they

99
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 3: are by cruelty, and actually probably more the anxiety in

100
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,480
Speaker 3: security and panic more than actually wilful cruelty. It feels

101
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,800
Speaker 3: cruel if you're on the receiving side of it. It

102
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 3: really really does. And it feels stealthy because this person

103
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 3: who once drew you in and was so seductive and

104
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 3: was so engaging, all of a sudden turns. It feels

105
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 3: very calculated, but it's not nearly as calculated as it

106
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 3: is that they just got bored with you.

107
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 2: Ooh ooh, that is very powerful.

108
00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 5: That's a that's a singer.

109
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 2: I like that too, because it takes the power away

110
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 2: from them and gives us the power. So, Doctor Robiney,

111
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 2: last week we actually covered some of the questions in

112
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 2: your thirty Questions survey or quiz from should I Say

113
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,640
Speaker 2: or Should I Go? And so we wanted to dive

114
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,120
Speaker 2: into just some of the key characteristics of a narcissist

115
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 2: because I know when we went through some of the

116
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 2: characteristics and the questions, we were like, wait, that sounds

117
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 2: like me, but I'm empathetic, I don't think of a narcissist.

118
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 2: So can we just cover the key characteristics of a

119
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 2: narcissist before we dive in deeper into the conversation.

120
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 3: We're looking at lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, this person

121
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 3: who's very superficial, who needs a lot of validation and admiration,

122
00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 3: and frequently seeks out validation and admiration. People who have

123
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 3: trouble controlling their emotions, particularly their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed,

124
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 3: or stressed out. These are people who are very controlling,

125
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 3: who are very sensitive to any form of criticism, who

126
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,560
Speaker 3: are very arrogant, and at the core of it, deeply,

127
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 3: deeply insecure. And because of that insecurity, they have this

128
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,520
Speaker 3: really really sort of grandiose exterior to protect them from

129
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 3: the insecurity that's inside. I mean to protecting insecurity from

130
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,679
Speaker 3: inside actually to protect that from the world that they

131
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 3: view to be so cruel. Wow.

132
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,440
Speaker 2: And when you think about you know, the person listening

133
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,640
Speaker 2: to this, and you know they probably tuned in because

134
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 2: they're trying to figure out, how do I finally leave

135
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 2: this narcissistic person. Can we talk about like how do

136
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 2: we end up in these relationships? Like is this narcissists

137
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 2: super charming? Is it something that we are doing that's

138
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,720
Speaker 2: like attracting them? Can we talk about what you've seen

139
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 2: in your experience and research around that.

140
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 3: So the narcissist relationship initially is often characterized by certain dynamics.

141
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,439
Speaker 3: Thet they're all falling in this bucket called love bombing,

142
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 3: which is a period of time that's characterized by a

143
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 3: lot of idealization and seduction, but it's also characterized by

144
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 3: it's not just always like sending you a ten dozen

145
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,200
Speaker 3: roses or taking you on a big dinner out or

146
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 3: buying you lots of gifts. That's what we traditionally think

147
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,559
Speaker 3: of as love bombing, the big grand gestures. But at

148
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 3: times it's a person who is so all in, who's

149
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 3: so all absorbed that they want to spend twenty four

150
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,640
Speaker 3: to seven. They're sending fifty texts a day, a good morning,

151
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 3: good night, I'm thinking about you, and people are flattered

152
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 3: by this, like wow, they can't get enough of me,

153
00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 3: and not starting to see that somebody who gets in

154
00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,839
Speaker 3: touch with you that much, that's probably foreshadowing a fair

155
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 3: amount of control. These are people who just like I

156
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 3: want to know everything about you, tell me everything you know,

157
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 3: what are your greatest fears? And you start opening up

158
00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 3: to them, they'll often tell you their tales of woe

159
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,199
Speaker 3: and urable and sad things that happen to them, often

160
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 3: making you want to rescue them. And then there's a

161
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 3: lot of push pull. They'll be like, oh, I'm so

162
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,520
Speaker 3: bummed out we met at the wrong time, and you're like, no, no, no,

163
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 3: we didn't meet it at the wrong time, and you

164
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 3: find yourself drawn into this manipulative game of feeling like

165
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 3: you have to fight for them, and by getting them

166
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 3: by the you fighting for them now you're even more

167
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 3: invested in it. So by them being sort of in,

168
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 3: sort of out, maybe this is not the right time,

169
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,440
Speaker 3: or they're like, you know, I'm kind of still in

170
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 3: something with someone. Everybody wants to be the winner, and

171
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 3: so they'll be like play, I'll dangle that like I

172
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know, let me think about it,

173
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't want them to be with

174
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 3: that other person. I want them to be with me.

175
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,200
Speaker 3: So people get into this fantasy I'm going to pull

176
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 3: them away from that person that they're sort of half in,

177
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 3: half out with, and what happens is that then they

178
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,200
Speaker 3: get your buy in. So all of this confusing stuff

179
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,480
Speaker 3: that happens in this early part of the relationship gets

180
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 3: people on the hook.

181
00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

182
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:05,000
Speaker 5: Wow, Okay, I was just having flashbacks to like folks

183
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,840
Speaker 5: that I know and like relates past relationships that I've had,

184
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 5: and I'm.

185
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 2: Like, WHOA, Okay, Wow.

186
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 5: So I know we're going to talk a little bit

187
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,600
Speaker 5: more about like the traits within the narcissists, right, or

188
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 5: like some of the tactics that they use. But in

189
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,199
Speaker 5: that example that you just gave of how that person

190
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 5: is like pulling you in, how do you recognize it

191
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 5: within yourself that maybe you might be more susceptible to

192
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 5: being pulled in by a narcissist?

193
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,679
Speaker 2: Like, are there traits that we may.

194
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,199
Speaker 5: Have that make us more susceptible to a narcissist?

195
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,680
Speaker 3: I think there are definitely people are more susceptible. But

196
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 3: the one thing I'm never going to want to do

197
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,560
Speaker 3: is drop a dime on someone and say they're responsible

198
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 3: for this. You know, I don't think people are responsible

199
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 3: for their own manipulation. This is being done to you.

200
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,640
Speaker 3: I do think that there are experiences, were things that

201
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 3: have happened in our lives that can make us more vulnerable.

202
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,679
Speaker 3: One is lack of knowledge. You don't know what this is,

203
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,199
Speaker 3: then you don't get it. And unfortunately the media portrays

204
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 3: all of these love stories and playing hard to get

205
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 3: and all the game playing in this rom com nonsense

206
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 3: that actually kind of cultivates this culture of these big

207
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,719
Speaker 3: love bomby kinds of sorts of relationships. That's number one,

208
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 3: So you got to understand it. Number two, if you

209
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,680
Speaker 3: came from a family, if you have a legacy issues,

210
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,800
Speaker 3: we call them legacy issues like family of origin issues

211
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 3: where you might have had a narcissistic parent or early

212
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 3: family characterized by neglect, by inconsistency, by chaos, by a

213
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 3: setting where you always felt like you had to prove yourself,

214
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 3: that you had to win over your difficult parent, where

215
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 3: you had to you know, you always felt like you

216
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 3: had to prove yourself that kind of hoop jumping. You

217
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,959
Speaker 3: bring that mentality into your adult relationships, and so then

218
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,960
Speaker 3: when somebody's asking you to hoop jump in an adult relationship,

219
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,239
Speaker 3: there's something almost reflexive about it. Narcissistic people also capitalize

220
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 3: on people who are very, very empathic. There are people

221
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,200
Speaker 3: out there who will say, I want to see the

222
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 3: good in everyone. Everyone's got good pieces in them, everyone's

223
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,719
Speaker 3: got light in them. You just got to help them

224
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 3: get it out. It's not true. And so the fact

225
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 3: of the matter is is that some people actually don't

226
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,640
Speaker 3: have other people's best interests at heart. I'm not going

227
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 3: to say that they're necessarily evil. I think that's a

228
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,960
Speaker 3: very strong word, but they're not kind. And so I

229
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 3: think that narcissistic people will often take advantage of hyper

230
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 3: empathic people that are always giving second chances and the

231
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,480
Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt and forgiving people all the time.

232
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 3: Another group of people who are very vulnerable, people who

233
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 3: are rescuers, like no, no, no, no, they just need me

234
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,080
Speaker 3: to get introduce them to some people and help them

235
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 3: get some connections. And if I give them a few

236
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 3: bucks to help them get going on their new rent

237
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,680
Speaker 3: and maybe loan them my car, it's all going to

238
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 3: be okay. It's all going to be okay. So they

239
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,640
Speaker 3: start enabling them from the very beginning of the relationship.

240
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 3: Narcissistic people also capitalize on people who are going through transitions.

241
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 3: Maybe someone coming out of a long term relationship, out

242
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 3: of a divorce, somebody who's moved to a new city

243
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,320
Speaker 3: between jobs or somehow in a transitional phase, or maybe

244
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 3: coming out of something maybe they had a death of

245
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 3: someone's significance in their life, or they're recovered from an

246
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 3: illness or something. So people who are kind of coming

247
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 3: into a new place are more vulnerable. They're sort of

248
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 3: trying to find their footing again, and a narcissistic person

249
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 3: can often come in sweep in because I'll tell you

250
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 3: this right now, when a person is very very very

251
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 3: careful and kind of sees a narcissist coming, a narcissist

252
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 3: will actually sometimes lose interest in that person because it's

253
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 3: almost like they know they've been found out, so they're like,

254
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,240
Speaker 3: this one isn't even worth it. But when they find

255
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 3: the person that gives them the benefit of the doubt

256
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 3: and the second chances and plays into their game, then

257
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 3: those are the ones they're going to continue to pursue.

258
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 3: So I do think there's an interaction between the narcissistic

259
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 3: personality style and certain qualities and people were more vulnerable

260
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 3: to this. But I'm a big believer that for a

261
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 3: lot of people out there, not all, but a lot,

262
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,960
Speaker 3: if you give them the knowledge, they might say, oh,

263
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,359
Speaker 3: is that what this is? But sadly, in my experience,

264
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 3: what I've seen is that a lot of people almost

265
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 3: need to go through one of these relationships and really

266
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 3: get a number done on them once before they believe it,

267
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 3: because when their friends or family try to warn them,

268
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 3: they're like no, no, no, no, no, no, I got this

269
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 3: figured out. Don no, no, that's not true. No no, no,

270
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,280
Speaker 3: I can do this and then it ends up becoming

271
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 3: a big mess.

272
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 2: What a beautiful way to describe it, where it's not

273
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 2: necessarily I like that you emphasize that it's not necessarily

274
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: the person's fault, but the lack of knowledge, because you

275
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 2: don't even know what hit you when this love bomb

276
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 2: is there. And I mean, we all want to be

277
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,200
Speaker 2: loved and seen and heard and valued, so when this

278
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 2: person displays that, you may not even know. So I

279
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 2: will say that the way that you're painting these pictures

280
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,960
Speaker 2: doct romeny. You are all up in someone's relationship right now,

281
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 2: you are all up in our past. I'm like having

282
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 2: flashbacks of instances where you know some of these things

283
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 2: have happened. So this is just so helpful. I do

284
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 2: want to ask if you could sort of talk about

285
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 2: the narcissists' tactics. And we have a few that we

286
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 2: took from some of your work, and we love to

287
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 2: like paint the picture of what does this look like

288
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 2: in action because we think that when we give those examples,

289
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 2: it really helps folks to realize, oh, this is what

290
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 2: this is. So when we think about manipulation, we hear

291
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 2: manipulation a lot. What does it look like in action

292
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 2: for someone to use manipulation in your intimate relationship?

293
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 3: So manipulation is often done where narcissistic relationships are about

294
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 3: power and control, right, They're about the narcissistic partner having

295
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 3: more power than their partner in the relationship. And so

296
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 3: because of that, what you'll see is that somebody's narcissistic

297
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 3: will often want to keep their partner off balance, so

298
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 3: they might do sort of passive aggressive or sort of

299
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 3: pseudo compliments like wow, I didn't think you were going

300
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 3: to be able to handle that. That's amazing that that

301
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 3: worked out for you. You're like, is that a compliment?

302
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 3: Is that an you didn't think I could do it?

303
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 3: But you're saying, wow, I did it. And most people,

304
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 3: especially if they're into this person or they love this person,

305
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,879
Speaker 3: they want to believe the compliment. So it's things like

306
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,679
Speaker 3: where a compliment is alongside sort of a little bit

307
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 3: of an insult. It's also things where they where you're

308
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,680
Speaker 3: led to doubt your reality, things like it could be

309
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,160
Speaker 3: in your face, like that never happened, or I never

310
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 3: said that, but it can also be things like you know,

311
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 3: you must be losing your mind. You keep forgetting things,

312
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 3: so what's happening there when they say that? Or like, boy,

313
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,879
Speaker 3: your anxiety is really really making it hard to cope

314
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 3: with you in this relationship. You worry about everything, your

315
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 3: paranoi is getting the way you're always trying to look

316
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 3: at my phone. So by labeling the person who was

317
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,399
Speaker 3: having warranted concerns about something or was asking for something

318
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 3: very basic and labeling them with terms like you're very

319
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,919
Speaker 3: anxious or you're very paranoid, once again, it's a power

320
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,920
Speaker 3: graph because they're trying to basically push down that other

321
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,440
Speaker 3: person saying there's something wrong with you. And for enough people,

322
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 3: there's enough self doubt in there where they're like, you know,

323
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 3: maybe there is something wrong with me, and they play

324
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 3: upon that doubt. So all of these things are always

325
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,600
Speaker 3: almost like leaving a person that trips up their reality.

326
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 3: It leaves them confused, leaves them full of self doubt.

327
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 3: Another common narcissistic tactic is a triangulation tactic where you

328
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 3: where they compare the person to someone else, like you know,

329
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 3: my ex girlfriend never did this to me, or my

330
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,280
Speaker 3: father never did this to my mother like it's always

331
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 3: in terms of you know, it's a comparison someone didn't

332
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 3: do this, or I'm actually looking for a partner who

333
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,320
Speaker 3: will do this. So now what they're doing is they're

334
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 3: laying down this groundwork of I want a partner who

335
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 3: does this, this and this, and then you can stay

336
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,679
Speaker 3: in the relationship. And because so many people, for a

337
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 3: whole whole reasons of history and other stuff, they don't

338
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 3: want to lose a relationship that when somebody says, well,

339
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,880
Speaker 3: I'm really looking for a partner who dot dot dot whatever,

340
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 3: then you start trying to be that. So they're basically

341
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,919
Speaker 3: giving you a script for what they want you to be.

342
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 3: Those are all the kinds of manipulations you might see

343
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 3: in a narcissistic relationship.

344
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 5: Wow, Okay, So when I hear that, I wonder about

345
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 5: what's the distinction between manipulation and bread crumbing.

346
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 3: Manipulations like a big term, and there's lots of things

347
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 3: in that's like a big barrel, and so lots of

348
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 3: things in the barrel. So bread crumbing is when you

349
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 3: give a person just enough to keep them on the hook.

350
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 3: So there's and this is what really confuses people about

351
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 3: narcissistic relationships. There are good days, there are even good weeks.

352
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 3: There are great nights out, there are fun vacations, there

353
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 3: is great sex. There's days when this person really appreciates

354
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 3: you and you're like, this is this is my dream?

355
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 3: And then it goes really cold. And in those cold moments,

356
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 3: people try to rationalize the cold moments. It's a fo

357
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 3: domon called cognitive dissonance. You've met this person, you're attracted

358
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 3: to them, they seem cool, they have everything you want

359
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 3: on paper, you're having good times, and then boom they

360
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 3: manipulate you, or boom they betray your trust, or boom

361
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 3: they just go cold on you. Well, that doesn't fit right.

362
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: This is these are two puzzle pieces that are no

363
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 3: longer fitting. Cognitive dissonance is this idea that a human

364
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 3: being doesn't like things to be inconsistent in their mind.

365
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 3: So what do they do. They tell themselves something, They

366
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 3: make a justification to make things consistent again. Oh, he's

367
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 3: not going cold. He told me he's got a deadline

368
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 3: at work. That's as he's just stressed. And you can

369
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 3: see after that happens once, and then it happens ten times,

370
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 3: and then it happens one hundred times before you know it.

371
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 3: This relationship is built on justifications. So the issue with

372
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 3: breadcrumbing is that it's just enough to keep you in.

373
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 3: It's just enough that's going. Well, you start comparing yourself

374
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 3: to other relationships, like, well, they argue sometimes, and they

375
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 3: have that, and they have this, and no relationship is perfect,

376
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 3: which is one of the ultimate rationalizations that people use

377
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 3: in narcissistic relationships. No relationship is perfect. Those breadcrumbs keep

378
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,360
Speaker 3: you in, but you're slowly but surely starving to death.

379
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: That's so deep, it's so powerful, and we hear it

380
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 2: makes me think about, you know, gaslighting. We hear about

381
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 2: this all the time. Right, it's like a buzzword nowadays.

382
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: But can we dive into what it looks like to

383
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 2: gaslight someone?

384
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 5: Like?

385
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 2: What does that look like in action?

386
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: So gaslighting is a little bit of what I've already

387
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 3: talked about. It is it's a very classical form of

388
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: manipulation where a person's reality is slowly taken away from them. Okay, Now,

389
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 3: the way I've often talked about gaslighting is it's not

390
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 3: really a one off I call it a grooming process.

391
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 3: Over time, many many, many times they're doubting your reality.

392
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 3: They're questioning you, Oh, honey, don't you know don't I

393
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 3: don't know? Like, oh, you didn't get that job interview,

394
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 3: don't worry about a baby. I love you, and you know,

395
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: I don't think that. I think that job was probably

396
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 3: a little bit too advanced for you. They're comforting you,

397
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 3: but at the same time they're telling you couldn't do

398
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: that job, and so you start almost getting lost in

399
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 3: this idea of this person taking care of you, and

400
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 3: you're like, I thought I could do that job, but

401
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 3: they're telling me I can't do that job, and I

402
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: didn't get the interview, so maybe they're right. So gaslighting

403
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 3: also often leverages something that's already happening. They'll do something

404
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 3: like move the car keys. They'll move them off the

405
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: front from the front door to the kitchen and say, hey,

406
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 3: where are the keys. They're like right where you put.

407
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, they're not. Did you move them to

408
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 3: the kitchen? I'dn't move the keys. They did move the keys,

409
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 3: Like wait a minute, Like, God, you've been having a

410
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: lot of trouble with your memory, so over time, through

411
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 3: little environmental manipulations denial of your reality, you might have

412
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 3: a strong response to something. They'll tell you something, you'll

413
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: say that's wrong, like you should be da da da

414
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 3: da da da da. And then the narcissistic person will say, well,

415
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: you're being too sensitive. So they're judging, who are you

416
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: to tell me I'm being too sensitive? While they're saying

417
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: you have no right to feel that way. Who gets

418
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 3: to tell someone what they have the right to feel?

419
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,479
Speaker 3: But those statements are so baked into our language. You

420
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 3: have no right to feel that way, You're being too sensitive.

421
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 3: That what's happening is now this person is thinking in cells,

422
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 3: maybe I'm too sensitive or maybe I shouldn't be angry.

423
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,959
Speaker 3: What's happening now you no longer trust your emotions. Before

424
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 3: you know it, you're no longer yourself anymore. And that

425
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 3: happens over time. By the time it's done, the gaslighted partner,

426
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 3: the sort of victim, if you will, almost just goes

427
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 3: along with everything the narcissist says because they no longer

428
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 3: trust themselves.

429
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: That is so heartbreaking. Wow.

430
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 5: So I have another example, and I'm wondering if this

431
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 5: is gaslighting, projection, or insecurity, or combination of all of it. Right,

432
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: So what about that partner who constantly accuses you of

433
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 5: flirting with other people when you know that you haven't been.

434
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 3: So when we say a very very common gambit by

435
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 3: a narcissistic partner, and what you're talking about is actually

436
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 3: a form of gaslighting, they're accusing you of something you're

437
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: not doing. So that's a doubting of your reality. But

438
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: there's also likely a second step process happening to this,

439
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: which is called projection. Projection is when we project sort

440
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 3: of unacceptable parts of ourselves onto another person. So the

441
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: narcissist likes to walk around feeling really self righteous, like

442
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 3: I'm above it all, I'm such a great catch. Well,

443
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: great catches don't flirt with other people, right, the narcissist

444
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: is the narcissist is being shady. Now they're accusing you

445
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: of being shady, and you're like, I know, I'm not

446
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: being shady, Like I know, I'm literally talking to these people.

447
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: This is a man and his wife, and I'm talking

448
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: to them like, and I'm being accused of flirting. Odds

449
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: are I can't say this is what's certain he's happening

450
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 3: every time, but odds are it's because that narcissist is

451
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 3: doing something inappropriate in their relationships. So the only one

452
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 3: who can sniff out a thief better than anyone is

453
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: another thief, right, so they're able to tell they're able

454
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: to smell out the player if you will, and they

455
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: think they can because they really what they're doing is

456
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: they're projecting it on to someone else. You're doing this,

457
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 3: you're doing that. They're basically accusing you of what you're doing.

458
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 3: That's projection. At the same time, it's gas slighting because

459
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: what you're doing with these people is not flirting. There's

460
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 3: nothing inappropriate about it. But what it achieves in doing

461
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: is you now find yourself defending yourself. I wasn't flirting.

462
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 3: I was just talking to them, and now there's like

463
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: and then your the narcissistic partners say, well, then why

464
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: are you reacting so strongly if you weren't cheating, And

465
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: it's because you're so you're thinking like, this is such

466
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 3: a crazy accusation that now your volume is going up

467
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 3: in your arms or waving around because it's silly and

468
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: their calm as can be because you're waving your arms

469
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 3: around and saying, they'll be saying, well, you certainly are

470
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: getting a little bit worked up for somebody who's not

471
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: doing anything wrong, and now it's as though you feel

472
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 3: you start doubting yourself, like maybe was I being inappropriate

473
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: with that guy or that gal? Like what was there something?

474
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: What was I doing? And now you start wondering about yourself.

475
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: Many people in narcissistic relationships where they're repeatedly accused of

476
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: cheating or flirting or other inappropriate conduct a Almost every

477
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: single time it was the narcissist engage in the inappropriate conduct.

478
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: But b they start narrowing their worlds. They become even

479
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 3: more and more and more careful, like I better be careful,

480
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 3: I better not go talk to that person because I'll

481
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: be accused of cheating. And they actually may even narrow

482
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: opportunities in their lives like job networking opportunities and things

483
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: like that, because they're so afraid of being called out.

484
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, now, doctor rominy. One of the other

485
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: traits that you've mentioned. I thought it was hovering, but

486
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 2: it's actually I believe hoovering. Can we talk about what

487
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: who links as well?

488
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 3: So the narcissistic relationship cycle typically follows a path of

489
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 3: love bombing all that idealization I talked about then about

490
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: anywhere from two to twelve weeks later, we go into

491
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: a phase called devaluing. Now the narcissist is getting bored

492
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: with you. You're no longer interesting because there's no more hunt,

493
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 3: there's no more chase. You're sitting on the sofa watching

494
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 3: movies together. It's no longer that interesting. Your supply, your

495
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 3: narcissistic supply and validation might even start be starting to

496
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: get a little bit stale. There's a little bit of

497
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 3: contempt for you, and it's kind of a nuanced process.

498
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 3: But now they devalue you. You're trying to go back

499
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 3: to love bombing. You're like, where is that person who

500
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: was so connected to me? And you're doing it now.

501
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 3: The person in the narcissistic relationships like, well, maybe I'm

502
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: not taking good care of myself. I got to stop

503
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 3: with the sweatpants. Maybe I've gained weight, maybe I need

504
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: to look better. Now the person in the relationship is

505
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: blaming themselves for the narcissist having lost interest. Then you

506
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: go to the discard phase. Now the discard doesn't necessarily

507
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: mean that the relationship ends. It could and it could

508
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: mean that the narcissist leaves. It could mean that you

509
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: leave because you've had it, or the non narcissistic person,

510
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 3: I guess. And it can also be that the narcissistic

511
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 3: person is fully checked out. They may have this might

512
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: be a phase of infidelity, or they may have become

513
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 3: so disconnected that it's as though you're not even in

514
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: a relationship, even though on paper you are. At some point,

515
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: especially when the not narcissistic person starts to pull out

516
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: of the relationship, saying this is ridiculous, this person is cheated,

517
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: or this person just doesn't pay attention to me and

518
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: you pull away, or even if they end it with you,

519
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: more often than not, the narcissist tries to pull the

520
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: person back into the relationship. That phase of pulling someone

521
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: back in is called hoovering. Most people out there who

522
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: have been in relationships with narcissists will say, at least

523
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: one time, after I thought we were done, this person

524
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: starts texting me in the middle of the night when

525
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 3: they're drunk, hitting me up on social media, but they

526
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: start reaching out and trying to pull it for hoover.

527
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: Hoover is a word for a vacuum clean right, trying

528
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: to vacuum you back in, and once you get and

529
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: start the hoovering cycle. Many people fall for it because

530
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 3: it's the fantasy, right, I want to go back to

531
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: the love bombing stage and the same promises and the

532
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 3: same kinds of intimacies, and even maybe the gifts or

533
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: the interest, or maybe I was wrong. I can't believe

534
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: I didn't take you. You were the best thing that

535
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: ever happened to me. I can't believe I didn't take you. Seriously,

536
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: those are the fantasy words that the person who was

537
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 3: treated so badly wanted to hear. So they give it

538
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: a second chance, and the whole cycle starts again, and

539
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: sometimes that hoovering love bombing cycle, all of it can

540
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 3: go play out three, four or five, ten times, and

541
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: many people don't get it. They're like, no, no, no,

542
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: they said they change. I don't want to be the

543
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: cold hearted person who doesn't believe people changed. Don't change,

544
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 3: and they didn't. Wow.

545
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 5: Okay, So let's say that the person has recognized that

546
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 5: this is what's happening, that this hoovering keeps happening, right,

547
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 5: and they get to a point where they're like, I'm

548
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 5: all right, I'm done. I recognize it, I see it

549
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 5: for what it is. I'm ready to completely end this

550
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 5: relationship with this narcissist. What are some of the strategies

551
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: out there to keep them from getting Hoover back?

552
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: In part of it is the absolute truths of this

553
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: is not going to change. Okay. So there's a common

554
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: pattern in narcissistic relationships called future faking. Future faking is

555
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 3: when they make those promises like we're going to live

556
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 3: here one day and we're going to move in and

557
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: we're going to have a wedding and we're going to

558
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: get married when I finish this, and I'm going to

559
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: go to therapy and I'm going to change, and I'm

560
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: going to stop using and I'm going to stop smoking weed,

561
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: and I'm going to stop talking to my ex girlfriend

562
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: promise prompt and they're always future. They're always fake in

563
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 3: the future. That future never shows up. And people are like, Okay,

564
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 3: you know he said in two years or she said

565
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: in two years that they said in two years when

566
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: this is over, then in the two years past. Now

567
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: you've just wasted two years of your life. And then

568
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: they move the goalposts again, right, and to tell people

569
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: we're being hoovered. Radical acceptance is everything. These patterns are

570
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: not going to change. Narcissistic patterns are ridiculously resistant to change.

571
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: They're very rigid, they're very concrete, and they don't tend

572
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 3: to change. And so as a result of that, the

573
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: cycle just keeps repeating over and over again. So I

574
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: say to people, do you like what just happened? And

575
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 3: they'll say, well, no, I didn't. I say, what's going

576
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: to happen again? No, no, no, I don't believe you.

577
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, And it happens exactly the same way.

578
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: So if somebody said I promise you this is going

579
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: to go down the same way, giving you ninety nine

580
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: percent odds, but that's almost how you have to think,

581
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: like it's going to go exactly the same way. I

582
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: also tell people you need to write down every awful

583
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: thing this person did to you, all the times they

584
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: canceled at the last minute, all the times you caught

585
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: them in shady messages with other people, all the times

586
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: they insulted your interest, all the times they were looking

587
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: at their cell phone when you were trying to talk

588
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: to them about something. Sit write it all down, because

589
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: when this person hoovers you back, I want you to

590
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: look at that list, because you're going back that is.

591
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: Super helpful, doctor Rominy. I do want to know if

592
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: there are support groups because I know many of us

593
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: have been in those situations where we keep getting pulled

594
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: back in and finally, you know, you take that step.

595
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: But before we get into the support groups, I have

596
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: to ask you. You said in another interview that I

597
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: think you said like you can't think of a situation

598
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: where a narcissist has actually changed and became an empathetic person.

599
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: And there's part of me that's just the part that's like, wait,

600
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: there's good and everyone you know, it's possible. How do

601
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: you feel about that? Is it possible for someone that

602
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: actually changed?

603
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: So here, here's how I want to put it, because

604
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 3: I think that the capacity for change is limited. All right,

605
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: So let's say you find that person who is narcissistic

606
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: and they're like, I have burned every bridge, I have

607
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: hurt people that the narcissistic persons like I actually did

608
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: care about that person, and things are crashing and burning

609
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: for them, right. The business is failing, are they're losing

610
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: their job, they're alone, and they start going to therapy

611
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: and they might even really really have that moment where

612
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: they're saying like okay, like I did wrong by these people.

613
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 3: Here's the challenge. Okay, and here's the challenge. They might

614
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: do the deep dive. They might, but boy did I

615
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: treat that person badly. The hard piece is to break

616
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: out of the narcissist is the victimization. They always feel

617
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: like victims. So when a narcissist is down and out,

618
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 3: which is that's what it's going to take for them

619
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: to be in therapy. They're not going to go to

620
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: therapy when everything their life's working out. They're only going

621
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: to go when everything's crashed and burned. Their primary narrative

622
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: is nothing ever works out for me. Everyone's out to

623
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: get me. Why is life so unfair to me? It's

624
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: that on and on and on and on. So even

625
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 3: though you try to explain, yeah, life isn't fair, it's

626
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: terribly and you really give them as a therapist, you

627
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: give them empathy and to that, I hear you, like,

628
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: a lot of bad things happen to you. However, however,

629
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 3: we all have our burdens that we bear and that

630
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 3: we can walk. We can walk through the world with

631
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: those burdens and still show up for people in the

632
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: right way. That's hard for them. And here's where most

633
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: people get disappointed. I have worked with narcissistic individuals and therapy,

634
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: and I have seen the needle move a little bit,

635
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 3: but I'll tell you that needle went right back to

636
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: the very very beginning whenever they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed out.

637
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 3: So if they're living a life where everything's just going

638
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: their way, they're making the money they want, they have

639
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: the job they want, they're living in the place they want,

640
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: they're driving the car they want, everything's lined up, they

641
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: may actually be able to show up and say I'm ready,

642
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: I've got it. I hurt you, I'm sorry, I should

643
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 3: have been better, I went to therapy. Somebody might take

644
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: them back, and things in the narcissistic person's life is

645
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: going fine now that you've got their partner back, and

646
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: then something goes wrong, new boss, new bosses locking horns

647
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 3: with them, or pandemic, and they lose a lot of money,

648
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: and guess what they're going to do. They're going to

649
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 3: go right back to how it always has been. That's

650
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 3: where the narcissistic personality always always goes back, is when

651
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: things start going south, when sting things start going wrong,

652
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: And that's the piece people say no, no, no, no,

653
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: Like we got back together, they went to therapy, they're

654
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 3: doing well. And I don't want to be the person's

655
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 3: always like and give it a minute, but inevitably it's

656
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: and give it a minute, because I don't know many

657
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: people who live stress free lives. And so that's what

658
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: I meant by that is that this pattern empathy means

659
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: that even when you're having your worst day, even if

660
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: you slip and say leave me alone, I'm having a

661
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: bad day, you catch yourself and say I had no

662
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: reason to get I had no right to speak to

663
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 3: you that way. You're not too responsible. You're not responsible

664
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: for my bad day. I am so sorry, and that

665
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: most of us could live with that right. We cut

666
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: people slackened that way. The narcissistic person is not going

667
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: to collect. They're not going to collect themselves that quickly.

668
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: It's going to take them a while. And that's what

669
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 3: I say. How how much of a stomach do you

670
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: have for this revolving door?

671
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: This is such an important conversation, doctor Rommy, and I

672
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: really appreciate you not giving people false hope because I

673
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: think we do live in a world where there is

674
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: you know, this fairy tale there's an idea of oh,

675
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: if I just this, it'll all be better. But lady,

676
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: as you listen to this episode, like, if you're in

677
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 2: a situation where you're with a narcissistic partner, you're probably

678
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: going to continue to go through the same cycle. We

679
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: have an expert here who is you know, worked with

680
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: these you know, with people that demonstrate these traits, and

681
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: I think that is just so important. I really appreciate

682
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: your honesty because it's what it is.

683
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: You know. Here's the thing. I think that we live

684
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: in a world where there's a lot of this sort

685
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: of positive psychology talk, manifestation talk, all of that, and

686
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 3: I understand why that feels reassuring to people. I say, listen,

687
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: if you're going to engage in that kind of talk

688
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: about positivity and everything, make it about yourself. Don't invest

689
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: that in another person. You cannot control the behaviors and

690
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 3: thoughts of another person. All you can do is keep

691
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: your side of the street clean. Focus it on yourself.

692
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly exactly, that is spot on.

693
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: I think that you know.

694
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 5: One of the things that I also say is, folks,

695
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 5: identify what it is that you can control, and the

696
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 5: thing that we can control is self. So I do

697
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 5: have one question though, in terms of statistics around identifying

698
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 5: like narcissistic people, is there like a difference in gender,

699
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 5: Like do we see more narcissistic people in one gender

700
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 5: versus another.

701
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 3: Here's what the hypothesis is right now, but we don't

702
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: have good statistics on this. In general, we see more

703
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: men with this pattern than women. However, even as I

704
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 3: say that, I don't want anyone to think, oh, does

705
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 3: that mean oh no, no, there's no female narciss There's

706
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: tons of women, and you know female identified people who

707
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 3: are narcissists. Plenty of people out there have narcissistic mothers. Well,

708
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: those are women. So you know, obviously this is not

709
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: a pattern that that is. You know that that's not

710
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: it is not a present in both genders. Some of

711
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: the qualities that we overvalue in men not being vulnerable,

712
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: not sharing a motion, empathy being viewed as weak, compassion

713
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 3: being viewed as weak. The cultivation of those qualities in

714
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: men make it more likely that if they already have

715
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: narcissistic tendencies that those will flourish, because having those qualities

716
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 3: is not pathologized in men, right, they're considered tough guys,

717
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: and that tough guy mentality can sort of enable narcissism

718
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: in men more than in women. But I have to

719
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 3: say that we do see it more commonly in men.

720
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 3: A lot of it has to do with how people

721
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: are socialized, a lot of it has to do with

722
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: sort of how emotion might even be processed. But at

723
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 3: the end of the day, it's very, very dangerous to

724
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: say this cannot be appear in women. It can. It does.

725
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: I've worked with plenty of clients who are who are

726
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 3: men or identify as male, who say I have been

727
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: you know, I've been devastated by a person who's a

728
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 3: narcissistic woman. I work with plenty of clients who have

729
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 3: narcissistic mothers. So it can present in anybody. But at

730
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: a population level, these traits are more common in men

731
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: than women.

732
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so for some Doctor Romney, this was a necessary

733
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: but heavy episode, but it was so helpful. And before

734
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: we shift up, you know, and we talk about how

735
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: people can stay in touch with you, we want to

736
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: we want to change up the energy of our interview

737
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: and transition into a new segment. So Dr Romney, before

738
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: we dive in, I don't know if we did this

739
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: segment last time with you. But just get ready, doctor Romney,

740
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: because it's about this change up. All right, there we go. So,

741
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 2: because we recognize, appreciate, and celebrate the multifaceted woman and

742
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: doctor Romney, we believe that it's okay to be classy

743
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: and ratchet. You can still be elegant and dance to

744
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: strip club music. We want to invite you to the

745
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 2: oh you clatchet segment? So doctor Romney, do you take

746
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 2: on the challenge?

747
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: I take on the challenge.

748
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 5: I think yay, yes, yes, this is exciting.

749
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: So doctor Romie, I'll start off with the first question.

750
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave don the ratchet question. So my

751
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: question is, what's one question or topic that you wish

752
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: people asked you about more often?

753
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 3: I wish that more people would ask me about how

754
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 3: you know, we focus so much on why does the

755
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 3: narcissist do what they do? Tell me about the narcissist.

756
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 3: I wish people would ask me more about life after

757
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 3: the narcissist.

758
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 5: Well we're here, pack an me. Can you tell us

759
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 5: what is life like for someone after they have officially

760
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 5: left the narcissist? So no more hoovering.

761
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: So it's complicated. I'll tell you what does happen If

762
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: a person doesn't get hoovered anymore for a little while.

763
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: There's a period of disappointment. They feel as though, was

764
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: I not even good enough to be hoovered and not

765
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 3: realizing that they just dodged a really big bullet. But

766
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: instead there's that sense of like, why didn't they come

767
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 3: back after me again? People almost get addicted to that cycle.

768
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 3: Right then there's a period of grief because these relationships

769
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 3: do a real number on people. They're confused, they've been

770
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 3: removed from their own reality for a very long time.

771
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 3: They're filled with self doubt, and there's a lot of anger,

772
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: and it's not even like the normal anger of grief,

773
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 3: like when somebody dies. Our anger is usually why did

774
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: they go so young? I'm so mad at myself that

775
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 3: I didn't make time for them when last time. The

776
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 3: anger of when you lose a narcissistic relationship is why

777
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 3: did I stay so long? And people get really angry

778
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: at themselves. There's a lot of shame, and so the

779
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 3: cycle of grief feels very different. And then a lot

780
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 3: of people don't even support people in that cycle of grief.

781
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 3: They'll say to them, oh, come on, now, that's not grief.

782
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: Nobody's dead or you know what, everybody has tough relationships.

783
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: This is a whole different experience, and a lot of

784
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: people don't get it and say you're making a bit

785
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: when you talk you you have no right to call

786
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 3: the narcissistic. You're not You're not a shrink, and so

787
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: people get a lot of pushback. So the grief experience

788
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: is a very lonely one. However, people are willing to

789
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: recognize that that first bit of time is characterized by

790
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: rumination and anger and some ongoing confusion euphoric recall. You

791
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: go back, you remember the good stuff. Then you come

792
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 3: out and there's a day you realize like, oh my gosh,

793
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: I can watch what I want. I can text my

794
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: friends at night when I want. I can spend special

795
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: days with my family without my family being criticized when

796
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 3: I want. I can go back to school and not

797
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 3: be called foolish because I can. And people start realizing

798
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 3: that this new freedom has been given to them and

799
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: they find their voice again. Sometimes they find it for

800
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 3: the first time. And that's the point at which I

801
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: always tell people, especially when it's an intimate relationship, if

802
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: you're breaking up with a narcissist, you've got to do

803
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: a twelve month relationship detox. It takes twelve months to

804
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 3: get that poison out of you. Twelve months, twelve months

805
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 3: of birthdays and anniversary dates and holidays that you don't

806
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 3: do it and you don't substitute someone else. In that year,

807
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: you get to know yourself again. You learn your rhythms,

808
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 3: You learn what you like to eat again, or what

809
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: position you like to sleep in again, and what your

810
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 3: interests are. Minimum of twelve months, people are like, oh

811
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: my goodness, I'm going to lose so much time, lose

812
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: so much time for what There's nothing more important than

813
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 3: getting acquainted with yourself. Because what happens is when you're

814
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 3: in a narcissistic relationship, you get so pulled away from

815
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 3: who you are you don't really really get to learn

816
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: what are your preferences. You want thin crust or thick crust.

817
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: You you're so used to ordering what the narcissist wants,

818
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: and eating what the narcissist wants, and having sex the

819
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 3: way the narcissist wants, and watching the movies the narcissist wants,

820
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: you forget that you actually like foreign films that you

821
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 3: actually prefer thin crust pizza, that you actually like hiking,

822
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 3: and you don't necessarily want to go to the gym,

823
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: And you then plant your flag and you get to

824
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: know your preferences. So the next person who meets you,

825
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 3: you're like, yeah, that'll be thin crust and this week,

826
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: and I'm taking a hike. You want to join me

827
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: instead of doing something on someone else's terms.

828
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 2: So beautiful that just I feel like I'm gonna cry,

829
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: Doctor Romeny. That just sounds so amazing to be on

830
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: the other side of that freedom. And thank you for

831
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: sharing that question with us, because I think that was

832
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: just so filled gems in and of itself. I thought

833
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: Don was going to get the wratch your question, but

834
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: I guess I will be asking you, doctor Romedy, So

835
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 2: get ready. The question is are you going to work?

836
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 3: Or two steps? Oh? Two step honey? If I worked,

837
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: I'm so old I'll probably put a hip out.

838
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: There is no judgment there, Dr Romney. There's the two

839
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: step is cute?

840
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: Two you can do the cut steps. Now I'm gonna

841
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 3: equip in my age. If I'm going to be a

842
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: two stepping I'm going to need medicare because.

843
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 5: No, I love it. Knowing one's self and one's true capabilities.

844
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 5: I love it. I love it. Okay, So the next

845
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 5: question is how do you want to be remembered?

846
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 3: How do I want to be remembered? You know, I

847
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: would love to be remembered as somebody who was authentic

848
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: and pathic and brave, somebody who went out on a

849
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 3: limb and said the uncomfortable truths that nobody else wanted

850
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 3: to say and gave people back their voice. That's how

851
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 3: I'd love to be remembered. Well, who knows, We'll see

852
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: what happens.

853
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: That's beautiful.

854
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 3: That is beautiful.

855
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 2: I love that.

856
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: But I'm just hoping they remember. Maybe all I do.

857
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 3: My real hope is that just that somebody does remember,

858
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: and maybe that's more than enough.

859
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: We love it. We love it, And doctor Romeny, the

860
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: last question for you here in the segment is which

861
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: song gets you on the dance floor at the Clever party?

862
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 3: Oh my good oh goodness. You know what. I was

863
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 3: in the car the other day and Earth Wind and

864
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 3: Fire came up on my shuffle and it was let's

865
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: groove and you know what, And I was just sort

866
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: of work in the front seat, and I thought, you know,

867
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: HOLDI book, it's I think some woy played a wedding

868
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: and that would actually get me.

869
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: So there you go, Yes, dancing, I think that's sometimes

870
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: some of the best dancing right there. Thank you so

871
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: much for paving home with us, doctor Romedy, Doctor Romenie.

872
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 2: We want to take a moment to just thank you

873
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: and honor you. We really appreciate the work that you

874
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: do dom as a psycho fellow, you know psychologist with

875
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: stating how there's not a lot of research on this topic,

876
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: but you have definitely freed so many people with the

877
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: work that you do and providing your expertise and insight.

878
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just I cannot wait to listen

879
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: to this episode, just like last time. So thank you

880
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: so much. And we'd love to let folks know where

881
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: they can find you, what products and services you're you

882
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: know you're promoting, and yes, how can they keep in touch?

883
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: So you can go to my website which is doctor

884
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 3: Romney dot com, and you can go to my YouTube

885
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 3: channel which is also doctor Romeney. There you'll find a

886
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 3: you know, ridiculously long library of videos on all things

887
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 3: related to narcissism and how it impacts relationships and mental

888
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 3: health and what survivors go through, and most importantly, how

889
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: all sorts of some things you can focus on to

890
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 3: help yourself cope with all of this too. And then

891
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 3: if you go to my website, you'll see that there's

892
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 3: always additional sorts of more robust seminars and programs that

893
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: help people understand these relationships. Last month we did a

894
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: healing seminar, So we really do have a you have

895
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: a mix of programs for people no matter where they're at,

896
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: whether they're trying to learn about it and they've never

897
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: experienced it and they want to try to avoid it,

898
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: whether they're in it and they don't know if they

899
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 3: want to get out of it or they are going

900
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 3: to stay in it or they're going to leave it,

901
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 3: and then for people who are coming out of it

902
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 3: and how to heal. So we try to help people

903
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 3: at all phases of this. I understand that some people

904
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: can't get out of these relationships, and I never judge that.

905
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: I think there's a real tendency of people to say, well,

906
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 3: you stay in this, You're a fool. We don't know

907
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: people's stories. There's issues around culture and religion, children, money,

908
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 3: you know, and it is and I think that then

909
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: it really becomes important to give people the tools and

910
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 3: make sure that they have the support so that they

911
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 3: don't blame themselves for the ongoing toxic stuff that's happening

912
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: in this relationship. Amazing.

913
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor, Thank you for having me.

914
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: It's always so lovely to see both of you.

915
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, hy lady, it's Terry here from cultivating her Space.

916
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: Are you tired of working hard for your money? Do

917
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 2: you want your business to run smoothly when you're out

918
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: of office? If you want to learn how to automate

919
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: your business cash flow and increase your impact and influence,

920
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: join me from our free workshop at brandwith Terry dot Com. Again,

921
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 2: that's brand with Terry dot Com. My name is spelled

922
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: te double ri. I hope to see you there, lady, Thanks.

923
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: For joining us today. Please note that our show may

924
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: contain conversations about self help, advice, self empowerment, and mental health,

925
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: but is by no means meant to be a substitute

926
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: for an ongoing formal relationship with a trained mental health provider.

927
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: If you are someone you know is in need of

928
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: mental health care, please visit the Therapy for Black Girls directory.

929
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: Psychology today or contact your insurance provider.

930
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard and want to keep

931
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: the conversation going, visit our website, cultivatingherspace dot com, and

932
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: be sure to click the Patreon tab to get access

933
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: to video content, bonuses, and our weekly after show and

934
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: before we meet again, repeat after me. I am doing

935
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: the best I can with the understanding knowledge and awareness

936
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: I have at this moment.