WEBVTT - Former US Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers Talks Harvard Reform

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>You've spent much of your career when you're in Washington

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<v Speaker 2>as a professor at Harvard and then as president of

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard as well. So we want to ask you about

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<v Speaker 2>this letter that came in on Friday from the United

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<v Speaker 2>States government. I've read the letter carefully. Set aside for

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<v Speaker 2>the moment, some of the things that some people find draconian.

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<v Speaker 2>Does the Trump administration have a point, particularly with respect

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<v Speaker 2>to dealing with anti semitism and diversity of viewpoint? Those

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<v Speaker 2>are things you have spoken out on before.

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<v Speaker 3>David.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been sharply critical of Harvard, and I continue to

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<v Speaker 1>be critical on many dimensions. Anti Semitism is still not

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<v Speaker 1>responded to strongly enough. There are still excesses of identity politics.

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<v Speaker 1>There's still concerns about intellectual diversity.

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<v Speaker 3>That's all right, But here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 1>In America, you have to follow the law and the

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<v Speaker 1>approach the Trump administration is taking of simply announcing and

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<v Speaker 1>across the board, freeze is wildly extra legal in its approach.

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<v Speaker 1>It is not at all consistent with the Civil Rights Act,

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<v Speaker 1>it is probably not consistent with Harvard's First Amendment rights,

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<v Speaker 1>and so The right thing to do was surely for

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<v Speaker 1>Harvard to respond vigorously and strongly. All the more because

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<v Speaker 1>this is not an isolated thing what's being done to Harvard.

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<v Speaker 1>This is not a manifestation of a particular concern about

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<v Speaker 1>aspects of universities. This is a part of a broad

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<v Speaker 1>and sweeping effort to suppress institutions that challenge the presidential administration.

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<v Speaker 1>It's part of what's being done to law firms. It's

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<v Speaker 1>part of what's being done to countries. It's part of

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<v Speaker 1>what's being done to judges. It's part of what's being

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<v Speaker 1>done to legal residents.

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<v Speaker 3>Of our country.

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<v Speaker 1>And if a institution like Harvard cannot resist tyranny when

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<v Speaker 1>applied to it, with Harvard's fifty billion dollar endowment, with

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<v Speaker 1>all its network, with all its prestige.

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<v Speaker 3>Then who can.

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<v Speaker 1>So Harvard should not go interjecting itself into politics, but God,

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<v Speaker 1>when it is the object of an extra legal set

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<v Speaker 1>of orders and threats, I don't think it had any

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<v Speaker 1>viable choice at all but to respond strongly.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about that extra legal part of what you're saying,

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<v Speaker 2>at least defonic the representative Republican from New York actually

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<v Speaker 2>give an Interview Today and Arrival Network saying, listen, colleges

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<v Speaker 2>like Harvard don't have a right to money from the government.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't have a right to tax mayor money. And

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<v Speaker 2>if they don't have a right to tax mayor money,

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<v Speaker 2>can't the government put conditions on that money?

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<v Speaker 3>Show here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, the money is not going It's not

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<v Speaker 1>like the government's funding the DEI office at Harvard, not

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<v Speaker 1>like the government is funding the student discipline mechanism at Harvard.

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<v Speaker 1>The government is funding researchers who are doing vitally important

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<v Speaker 1>research on diseases like diabetes and cancer and als. Show

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<v Speaker 1>what sense does it make to cut their funding off

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<v Speaker 1>because somebody doesn't like what the dean of students did

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<v Speaker 1>in a student discipline case? And what remit does the

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<v Speaker 1>government have to set as a condition the composition which

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<v Speaker 1>beliefs are valued, in which beliefs are not valued in.

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<v Speaker 3>The Harvard Sociology department.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not the way free speech works are in a

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<v Speaker 1>free society. And this is supposed to be done the

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<v Speaker 1>power of the purse. Remember by Congress, it is not

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<v Speaker 1>the prerogative of the executive branch. With three days notice,

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<v Speaker 1>with no hearing, no judicial review, no transparent notification to

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<v Speaker 1>Congress is mandated by statute to simply discriminately start cutting

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<v Speaker 1>off previously promised and committed funds because it has a

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<v Speaker 1>disagreement over an issue with the university.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Larry, give us a sense of what is a

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<v Speaker 2>practical matter this will mean if it continues through. You

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<v Speaker 2>ran Harvard at one point. You know the budget, You

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<v Speaker 2>know that fifty three billion dollars in down there. What

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<v Speaker 2>will it do their operations?

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<v Speaker 1>Look, they'll have to make some very important strategic choices.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope that the university will find ways even if

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<v Speaker 1>there is a cutoff for some interval of funds, to

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<v Speaker 1>maintain vitally important programs, to not cut back research. But potentially,

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<v Speaker 1>if the US government goes to war with our great universities,

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<v Speaker 1>it means a sharp reduction in the kind of scientific

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<v Speaker 1>progress that has caused the United States to be the

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<v Speaker 1>envy of the world and pull so far ahead of

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<v Speaker 1>Europe and Japan. It means the end of efforts at

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<v Speaker 1>cures to diseases like cancer and diabetes. It means a

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<v Speaker 1>substantial risk to our national security because one of our

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<v Speaker 1>great national assets has been our capacity for innovation which

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<v Speaker 1>resides very heavily in our leading academic institutions. So a

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<v Speaker 1>short run problem, I think that can be managed painfully

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<v Speaker 1>until the judiciary steps in and does what's necessary, a

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<v Speaker 1>long run war against the universities that is going after

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<v Speaker 1>what is our hugest asset. You know, if I think

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<v Speaker 1>about all the different sectors of the economy, it's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to think of one where we are as.

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<v Speaker 3>Dominant as in higher education.

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<v Speaker 1>All the students from all over the world, at least

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<v Speaker 1>until this administration came, wanted to come to the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>A vast fraction of the world's innovation takes place in

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<v Speaker 1>American universities.

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<v Speaker 3>If we put at this put.

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<v Speaker 1>That at risk, we are making, I believe, a very

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<v Speaker 1>very grave mistake. And yes, these issues should be pursued.

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<v Speaker 1>But destroying medical research grants because you don't think people

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<v Speaker 1>have been disciplined severely enough, it really doesn't make any sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Larry, I wonder if there's cautionary tail here that maybe

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<v Speaker 2>the higher education system has become too intertwined with the government,

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<v Speaker 2>that's why they're so dependent upon them.

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<v Speaker 1>There may be questions that can be asked of that kind.

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<v Speaker 1>But gosh, if the government is not prepared to fund

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<v Speaker 1>basic research, the research which ultimately will make possible the

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<v Speaker 1>development of new products.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we have a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>If the government is not prepared to fund scholarships that

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<v Speaker 1>promote opportunity for our poorest students, who are very able

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<v Speaker 1>and generate social mobility, I think we have a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what we need, frankly, is a more mature

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<v Speaker 1>relationship between the government, the broader society, and the universities. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>the universities have made some very serious mistakes, and yes

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<v Speaker 1>they should be pressured and pressured with escalating strength to

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<v Speaker 1>change that. I didn't even have an objection to the

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<v Speaker 1>way in which the Biden administration opened civil rights cases

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<v Speaker 1>with respect to a variety of universities.

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<v Speaker 3>And anti semitism.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's a very different thing than the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>persecution that is involved here. And this escalated yesterday, David

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<v Speaker 1>in a profoundly troubling way, when the President of the

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<v Speaker 1>United States endeavored by social media to engage in an

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<v Speaker 1>individual specific tax matter, namely Harvard's five oh one C

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<v Speaker 1>three deduction, and to suggest that it be decided on

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<v Speaker 1>the basis sh of a political ground.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the kind of interference.

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<v Speaker 1>With the IRS that it's a sacred duty of the

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<v Speaker 1>Treasury Secretary to resist. It's exactly what was alleged to

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<v Speaker 1>have happened six levels down, and many people got very

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<v Speaker 1>upset in connection with the so called Loess Learner case

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<v Speaker 1>involving five O one C three deductions and conservative groups.

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<v Speaker 1>If there was punishment of conservative groups, people were absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>right to have been hugely outraged about it during the

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<v Speaker 1>Biden administration.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know anything about.

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<v Speaker 1>The merits of the case, but for the President of

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<v Speaker 1>the United States to be calling for changing the tax

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<v Speaker 1>status of his adversaries, this is new, and I believe

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<v Speaker 1>authoritarian and a real question about our democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>Larry, one last question, since we're on taxes and this

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<v Speaker 2>is tax week, basically, what do you make of the

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<v Speaker 2>actions that the Trump administration is taking with respect to

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<v Speaker 2>the IRS.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's possible that the Treasury Secretary and his

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<v Speaker 1>senior colleagues are being seriously delinquent in their duty. I

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<v Speaker 1>look at tens of thousands of people being pushed out

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<v Speaker 1>of the IRS, even as tax compliance is a massive problem,

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<v Speaker 1>and hear so many stories have increased tax chieting as

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<v Speaker 1>a consequence. I see the elevation of a person with

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<v Speaker 1>no experience, no administrative or information technology experience, to be

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<v Speaker 1>the temporary Commissioner of the IRS, chosen on the basis

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<v Speaker 1>of political loyalty to the Trump enterprise.

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<v Speaker 3>I look at what are.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably the extra lawful agreements entered into without even speaking

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<v Speaker 1>to people at the IRS with respect to information sharing

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<v Speaker 1>and immigration. I look at the president's involvement in specific cases,

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<v Speaker 1>and I see the most important line that I thought

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<v Speaker 1>I was supposed to defend when I was Treasury Secretary,

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<v Speaker 1>a political tax enforcement, neutral professional tax enforcement, not driven

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<v Speaker 1>by politics. And I see that line being crossed with

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<v Speaker 1>the Treasury Department hearing it on, and it makes me

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<v Speaker 1>both very sad and very angry.