1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 2: You've spent much of your career when you're in Washington 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 2: as a professor at Harvard and then as president of 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Harvard as well. So we want to ask you about 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: this letter that came in on Friday from the United 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: States government. I've read the letter carefully. Set aside for 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: the moment, some of the things that some people find draconian. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: Does the Trump administration have a point, particularly with respect 9 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: to dealing with anti semitism and diversity of viewpoint? Those 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: are things you have spoken out on before. 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 3: David. 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: I've been sharply critical of Harvard, and I continue to 13 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: be critical on many dimensions. Anti Semitism is still not 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: responded to strongly enough. There are still excesses of identity politics. 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: There's still concerns about intellectual diversity. 16 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 3: That's all right, But here's the thing. 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: In America, you have to follow the law and the 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: approach the Trump administration is taking of simply announcing and 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: across the board, freeze is wildly extra legal in its approach. 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: It is not at all consistent with the Civil Rights Act, 21 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: it is probably not consistent with Harvard's First Amendment rights, 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: and so The right thing to do was surely for 23 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: Harvard to respond vigorously and strongly. All the more because 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: this is not an isolated thing what's being done to Harvard. 25 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: This is not a manifestation of a particular concern about 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: aspects of universities. This is a part of a broad 27 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: and sweeping effort to suppress institutions that challenge the presidential administration. 28 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: It's part of what's being done to law firms. It's 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: part of what's being done to countries. It's part of 30 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: what's being done to judges. It's part of what's being 31 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: done to legal residents. 32 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: Of our country. 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: And if a institution like Harvard cannot resist tyranny when 34 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: applied to it, with Harvard's fifty billion dollar endowment, with 35 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: all its network, with all its prestige. 36 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 3: Then who can. 37 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: So Harvard should not go interjecting itself into politics, but God, 38 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: when it is the object of an extra legal set 39 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: of orders and threats, I don't think it had any 40 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: viable choice at all but to respond strongly. 41 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: Let's talk about that extra legal part of what you're saying, 42 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: at least defonic the representative Republican from New York actually 43 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: give an Interview Today and Arrival Network saying, listen, colleges 44 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: like Harvard don't have a right to money from the government. 45 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: They don't have a right to tax mayor money. And 46 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: if they don't have a right to tax mayor money, 47 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: can't the government put conditions on that money? 48 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: Show here's the thing. 49 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: First of all, the money is not going It's not 50 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: like the government's funding the DEI office at Harvard, not 51 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: like the government is funding the student discipline mechanism at Harvard. 52 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: The government is funding researchers who are doing vitally important 53 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: research on diseases like diabetes and cancer and als. Show 54 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: what sense does it make to cut their funding off 55 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: because somebody doesn't like what the dean of students did 56 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: in a student discipline case? And what remit does the 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: government have to set as a condition the composition which 58 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: beliefs are valued, in which beliefs are not valued in. 59 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: The Harvard Sociology department. 60 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: That's not the way free speech works are in a 61 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: free society. And this is supposed to be done the 62 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: power of the purse. Remember by Congress, it is not 63 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: the prerogative of the executive branch. With three days notice, 64 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: with no hearing, no judicial review, no transparent notification to 65 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: Congress is mandated by statute to simply discriminately start cutting 66 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: off previously promised and committed funds because it has a 67 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: disagreement over an issue with the university. 68 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: So, Larry, give us a sense of what is a 69 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: practical matter this will mean if it continues through. You 70 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: ran Harvard at one point. You know the budget, You 71 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: know that fifty three billion dollars in down there. What 72 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: will it do their operations? 73 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: Look, they'll have to make some very important strategic choices. 74 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: I hope that the university will find ways even if 75 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: there is a cutoff for some interval of funds, to 76 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: maintain vitally important programs, to not cut back research. But potentially, 77 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: if the US government goes to war with our great universities, 78 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: it means a sharp reduction in the kind of scientific 79 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: progress that has caused the United States to be the 80 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: envy of the world and pull so far ahead of 81 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Europe and Japan. It means the end of efforts at 82 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: cures to diseases like cancer and diabetes. It means a 83 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: substantial risk to our national security because one of our 84 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: great national assets has been our capacity for innovation which 85 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: resides very heavily in our leading academic institutions. So a 86 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: short run problem, I think that can be managed painfully 87 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: until the judiciary steps in and does what's necessary, a 88 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: long run war against the universities that is going after 89 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: what is our hugest asset. You know, if I think 90 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: about all the different sectors of the economy, it's hard 91 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: to think of one where we are as. 92 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: Dominant as in higher education. 93 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: All the students from all over the world, at least 94 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: until this administration came, wanted to come to the United States. 95 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: A vast fraction of the world's innovation takes place in 96 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: American universities. 97 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: If we put at this put. 98 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: That at risk, we are making, I believe, a very 99 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: very grave mistake. And yes, these issues should be pursued. 100 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 1: But destroying medical research grants because you don't think people 101 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: have been disciplined severely enough, it really doesn't make any sense. 102 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: Larry, I wonder if there's cautionary tail here that maybe 103 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: the higher education system has become too intertwined with the government, 104 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: that's why they're so dependent upon them. 105 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: There may be questions that can be asked of that kind. 106 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: But gosh, if the government is not prepared to fund 107 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: basic research, the research which ultimately will make possible the 108 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: development of new products. 109 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: I think we have a problem. 110 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: If the government is not prepared to fund scholarships that 111 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: promote opportunity for our poorest students, who are very able 112 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: and generate social mobility, I think we have a problem. 113 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: I think what we need, frankly, is a more mature 114 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: relationship between the government, the broader society, and the universities. Yes, 115 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: the universities have made some very serious mistakes, and yes 116 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: they should be pressured and pressured with escalating strength to 117 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: change that. I didn't even have an objection to the 118 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: way in which the Biden administration opened civil rights cases 119 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: with respect to a variety of universities. 120 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 3: And anti semitism. 121 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: But that's a very different thing than the kind of 122 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: persecution that is involved here. And this escalated yesterday, David 123 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: in a profoundly troubling way, when the President of the 124 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: United States endeavored by social media to engage in an 125 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: individual specific tax matter, namely Harvard's five oh one C 126 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: three deduction, and to suggest that it be decided on 127 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: the basis sh of a political ground. 128 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: That's the kind of interference. 129 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: With the IRS that it's a sacred duty of the 130 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: Treasury Secretary to resist. It's exactly what was alleged to 131 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: have happened six levels down, and many people got very 132 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: upset in connection with the so called Loess Learner case 133 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: involving five O one C three deductions and conservative groups. 134 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: If there was punishment of conservative groups, people were absolutely 135 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: right to have been hugely outraged about it during the 136 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: Biden administration. 137 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 3: I don't know anything about. 138 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: The merits of the case, but for the President of 139 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: the United States to be calling for changing the tax 140 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: status of his adversaries, this is new, and I believe 141 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: authoritarian and a real question about our democracy. 142 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: Larry, one last question, since we're on taxes and this 143 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: is tax week, basically, what do you make of the 144 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: actions that the Trump administration is taking with respect to 145 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: the IRS. 146 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: I think it's possible that the Treasury Secretary and his 147 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: senior colleagues are being seriously delinquent in their duty. I 148 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: look at tens of thousands of people being pushed out 149 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: of the IRS, even as tax compliance is a massive problem, 150 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: and hear so many stories have increased tax chieting as 151 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: a consequence. I see the elevation of a person with 152 00:11:53,360 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: no experience, no administrative or information technology experience, to be 153 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: the temporary Commissioner of the IRS, chosen on the basis 154 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: of political loyalty to the Trump enterprise. 155 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: I look at what are. 156 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: Probably the extra lawful agreements entered into without even speaking 157 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: to people at the IRS with respect to information sharing 158 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: and immigration. I look at the president's involvement in specific cases, 159 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: and I see the most important line that I thought 160 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: I was supposed to defend when I was Treasury Secretary, 161 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: a political tax enforcement, neutral professional tax enforcement, not driven 162 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: by politics. And I see that line being crossed with 163 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: the Treasury Department hearing it on, and it makes me 164 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: both very sad and very angry.