1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson talked about our old animals this week. 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: We really did. Boy did I wind up finding the 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: middle part of it really irritating. It is really wild 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: to me that people kept reporting those poor scientists as 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: though they were these you know, ruthless killers pursuing anything 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: for science, even death, Like it just looks like a 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: pulp novel in some of them. It's like, no, dude, 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: that's how you do it. I sort of think that 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: it might have gone a little better had the researchers 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: not given me a name. Yeah, because like, naming animals 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: just it leads people to personify them a lot, and 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: we do this all the time. We named pets. A 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: lot of zoos named their their you know, most famous animals. 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: There are some sort of wildlife centers that I've been 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: to that intentionally don't name their animals because they're like, 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: these are not people's pets. These are wild animals that 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: live here a lot of time because they've had some 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: kind of injury that means they can't survive in the 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: wild anymore. Like the fact that they named it I 22 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: think was just a recipe for stuff to go wrong. 23 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: But also I got deeply frustrated at all of the 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: news reporting that was like those dummy scientists killed the 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: oldest clam. What a bunch of ding dongs. It's like, no, dude, 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: I think it happens. I will say this because for 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: a long time I volunteered at a big aquarium in 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: animal husbandry, prepping diets for animals, and I went through 29 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, probably thousands and thousands and thousands of 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: pounds of clam. There's not much to a clam. There's 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: no brain there. It's a muscle and a system for 32 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: processing waste in a shell. Yeah, I mean there's the 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: other components. But like it. To me, it's one of 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: those things where it's not to say that, you know, 35 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: respect for all living life is a thing, but also 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: it's not. It's just not the same as a To me, 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't bear sentience. That could be my own ignorance, 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: but yeah, well, and I can totally like, if a 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: person is vegan and doesn't use any animal product in 40 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: any way, I think that's reasonable to extend that to 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: being angry that these clams were killed for research. But 42 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: like if you eat meat right and wear leather and 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: like you know, thoughtlessly squash bugs in your house, I like, 44 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: there's just the outrage. I'm like, you don't, you don't 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: have you don't have standing for this. And I do know. 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: I mean I I have talked to a number of 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: biologists and animal keepers about it. That there is kind 48 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: of constant debate that goes on about naming animals. Yeah, 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: and you know, trying to balance between not wanting people 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: to humanize them and also wanting people to have enough 51 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: of a connection that things like conservation are really taken 52 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: to heart. And it's a tricky balance. I don't know 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: where the right thing is. I have the same like 54 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: I went to a fundraiser at a zoo recently, and 55 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: I was having the same like mental conversation with myself 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: about like the questions about keeping the animals in captivity, 57 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: but also like raising so much awareness for like habitats 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: of these animals that are being destroyed and like getting 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: people to care about it. Yeah. So I have a 60 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: tough time with those questions a lot of the times. 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: But I am so mad that there were headlines that 62 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: were like the jerk scientists killed the oldest clam because 63 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: they were thoughtless. And none of that's correct, No, not 64 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: at all. That's one of those don't read the comments scenarios. 65 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: I might have been less irritated had I not just 66 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: worked on the next thing we're recorded today, which had 67 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: some similar themes, and that I just I wound up 68 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: finding profoundly irritating. I have fun stories, perfect because we 69 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: did not talk about elderly cats or dogs. No, but 70 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: do you know about Creampuff, the oldest cat on record? No, 71 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: Creampuff was thirty eight when she died, and she belonged 72 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: to a man named Jake Perry who lives in Austin, Texas. 73 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: And she beat the record of the previous cat, Grandpa, 74 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: who lived to be thirty four, who was also Perry's cat. Okay, 75 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: and Perry's veterinarian has gone on record as saying like 76 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: he has been treating his cats for like fifteen years 77 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: or something, and that about a third of them have 78 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: lived to be at least thirty, which is extraordinary. Huh. 79 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: So people have been like, what is this guy doing 80 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: that's keeping cats so healthy for so long with great longevity? 81 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: Three times longer than old cats. Right right, right, Okay, 82 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: before I say any of this, listeners, do not give 83 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: your cats people food. Do not, because a lot of 84 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: the things he's given his cats are things that your 85 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: veterinarian will say, Please, don't give that to cats. Yeah, 86 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: definitely on the no fly list. So I'm reading this 87 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: from an article about him and Atlice Obscura, where he 88 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: said that on top of dry commercial cat food, he 89 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: also made them eggs every day for breakfast, turkey, bacon, 90 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: and broccoli, and they got a little bit of coffee 91 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: with cream, and then every two days he would give 92 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: them an eye dropper of red wine to help their circulation. 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: I will tell you this, I mean from personal experience, 94 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: because I went through I'm going to make eggs for 95 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 1: my cats every Saturday is their brunch. Did not agree 96 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: with many of my cats eggs. And then I talked 97 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: to my vent and she's like, oh no, a lot 98 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: of cats can't tolerate eggs. So Mileer's me veried, Please again, 99 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: don't feed your cats coffee and wine. Coffee is very 100 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: much on the no go list because caffeine can really 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: mess with the cat system. I don't know why he 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: are so happy and lucky and fortunate and long lived, 103 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: although he also it sounds like his entire house is 104 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: set up for cats, like he runs documentaries for them 105 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: and even puts trailers in front of them so that 106 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: they'll stay. They're indoor only, which is always going to 107 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: extend their life because the outside and their curiosity are 108 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: a bad combination. And he has like runs built around 109 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: his house, like up the walls and stuff, so the 110 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: cats have lots of climbing and exploration space. They're all 111 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: getting tons of exercise. We don't know, but he's got 112 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: the magic touch, and people study him. Yeah. He is 113 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: also advancing in age, so I think people want to 114 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: know everything he knows. Sh hurry, I mean, who doesn't 115 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: want a cat to be thirty four? Yeah. I think 116 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: the oldest cat I've ever had personally was almost twenty yeah, 117 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: and was a very old cat at that. Yeah. I 118 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: mean I have a close friend who's had several cats 119 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: hit twenty. She's obviously got a touch there. What makes 120 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: me laugh is that two of them have been deeply 121 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: in love with my husband. Oh yeah, to the point 122 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: where she'll be like, this cat is getting very old 123 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: and rickety. I don't know how long she has, and 124 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: Brian will go to her house and the cat turns 125 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: into Blanche Devereux and rushes down the stairs and is like, hello, 126 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: a gentleman caller. He just says the magic touch that 127 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: cats love him. But those two in particular loved him. 128 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: It was very funny. We used to call them his girlfriends. Yeah. 129 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: May we all have long living cats. I have a 130 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: couple that are eighteen right now that I love very much, 131 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: so I want them to be thirty four. We'll see then. 132 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: The oldest dog is also still alive. I don't know 133 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: how this is pronounced, because this dog lives in Portugal, 134 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: and I don't know how they right. I'm triple checking 135 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: yes in Portugal. The dog's name is Bobby. Bob I 136 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: cute as pie, and Bobby is thirty one, and that 137 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: is very old for a dog. He is a like 138 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: a herding and livestock dog. And he is this russet colored, 139 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: sweet little kind of barrel chested thing. He looks so cute. 140 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: His breed is not what I'm familiar with. I may 141 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: or may not mispronounce this is rifero do alentejo. I 142 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: don't know what kind of breed that is it's a 143 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: like I said, a livestock dog, so cute. And they 144 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: attribute his his longevity to just living in a calm 145 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: and peaceful environment. He has not had a lot of 146 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: stressors in his life. He's very loved and very well 147 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: cared for. So those two are adorable. We love I 148 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: love an old animal. Greenland sharks. We think lived to 149 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: be very very long, but we don't know how long. 150 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: I think there are some three hundred plusers on record. 151 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: And then I want to come back to Winston Churchill 152 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: because Winston Churchill really did love animals. He's an interesting 153 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: I understand why they are a Kagilian books written about him, 154 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: because he really is quite an interesting figure. Pluses and 155 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: minus is there. But one of the things that he 156 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: did as part of his final arrangements was he wanted Chartwell, 157 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: his country house to always have an orange cat named Jock. Okay, 158 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: that was well cared for, because he had a favorite 159 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: cat named Jock that Sir John Colville had given him 160 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: as a gift. Sir John Colville was his secretary. And 161 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: so the National Trust, we said, that's a National Trust 162 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: site now has to take care of an orange cat 163 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: along with the grounds. As part of the rules, they're 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: on Jock the Third, But apparently Jock the Third is 165 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: real bad about destroying furniture, so he can't go in 166 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: any of the main rooms where the antis h. He 167 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: is still very, very loved and has a pretty good life. 168 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: It sounds like, but there have been some rules put 169 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: in place for Jock. That's sure. I love it. I 170 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: love it animals. They're wonderful and awful. I love him. 171 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: I mean when I say they're awful, I like the 172 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: bad behaved ones the best. Yeah, I'm that person who's like, oh, 173 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: this cat destroyed your drywall. I'll take it. It's great. 174 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: I love that cat. Great. Great. Oh that cat, you know, 175 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,479 Speaker 1: ruined your car, I'll take it. Sounds great. I'm reminded 176 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: of the deer departed mister Burns turning on the stove. 177 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: Oh he was the worst cat and the best cat 178 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: I have. Only this sounds very silly, I'm sure to 179 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: people that are not pet people. But mister Burns has 180 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: been gone a little over two years, and I'm only 181 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: just now to the point where I can talk about 182 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: him again, Like, I really really love that dude. But 183 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: in case anyone's wondering about the stove. We adopted mister Burns. 184 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: He was a rescue that a woman who rescued a 185 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: lot of cats had found trying to integrate into like 186 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: a junkyard feral group that she was doing a trap 187 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: neuter release program with. And they didn't like him. They 188 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: thought he was like a chupacap brother. They didn't think 189 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: he was a cat. I mean to look at this cat, right, 190 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: he was a devon rex And he was very dirty 191 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: at the time as well, because he clearly did not 192 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: have the street smarts to live in a junkyard and 193 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: she had scooped him up, and he looked very pathetic, 194 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: and we took him and he became just my barnacle. 195 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: He was my baby baby, and he was very smart 196 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: and stupid at the same time. Like he would get 197 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: in the shower with us, but he wouldn't close his 198 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: eyes and says the water would hit him. He would 199 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: just look frantic and be looking around. His body would 200 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: stay still, but his head and I would be like, 201 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: just close your eyes digged on and he wouldn't see it. 202 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: And then one day we came home and found him 203 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: sitting on the top of the stove. Our cats are 204 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: not allowed on the counters, and we're actually pretty successful 205 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: at keeping him off. But he was sitting in the 206 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: middle of the stove with all four burners turned on. 207 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: Praise Gredo, he did not set himself in the house 208 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: on fire. Right. Uh. It's one of the reasons we 209 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: now only have stoves with like safe the things. Even 210 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: though he is now gone, I just don't want to 211 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: risk it over again. Yeah. Yeah, mister Burns who was 212 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: very bad and very wonderful cat, and I loved him. 213 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: If you have very bad and wonderful cats, send us 214 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: those pictures. I love them, especially if you catch them 215 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: doing the mischief. That's the best part. One other day, 216 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: I'll tell you about how he stole food from the 217 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: toaster of it and then got mad at us for 218 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: taking it from him. We had a very different milk 219 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: sickness episode than what I thought I was going to 220 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: be writing. Ah, but there are so many things that 221 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: I want to say. First, Frankly, Ella Hugh Hall's depiction 222 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: of Aunt Shawnee is very heavily stereotyped in terms of 223 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: like how she talked and how she acted at all 224 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: of that. It definitely reads to me like a nineteenth 225 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: century account written by a white person about what they 226 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: think Indigenous people are, Like, it's very stereotypical. All of 227 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: that said, though, he actually makes it sound like a collective, 228 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: collaborative effort between Doctor Anna and Aunt Shannie. He makes 229 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: it sound like they were really partners working together. It 230 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: does not sound like doctor Anna did it herself and 231 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Aunt Shannie was kind of an afterthought. Like one of 232 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: the very earliest pages of the book makes this reference 233 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: to Aunt Shannie, and he makes it sound like like 234 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: she became part of their community and that they were 235 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: really working together, and so like, I don't know if 236 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: this really happened, even without the layers of like very 237 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: stereotypical and kind of racist language, Like the whole story 238 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: plays into some tropes about Indigenous people. Yeah, and like 239 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: with all of that, like, I don't know if it's 240 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: a true story. All of that said, though, like it 241 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: really irritates me that this account really makes focuses in 242 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: a lot of ways on Aunt Shannie, and like so 243 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: many articles written in the last five or ten years 244 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: make it sound like it was doctor Anna, and I 245 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: just I found that annoying. I also found it annoying 246 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: that anybody thought, ever that this was an appropriate book 247 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: to use as your footnote in a JAMA article. Why, Like, why, Yeah, 248 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: that's weird. It is deeply obvious to me that it 249 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: is not that kind of book. See my thing now, 250 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: having heard you talk about because I didn't read the book, 251 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: how much she became integrated in their community, and I'm like, 252 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: and yet no one asked her name? Yeah, well, and 253 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that's what I'm just like him, excuse he says something 254 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: in there that's like her name must have been really 255 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: hard to write in English because I don't see it anywhere. 256 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: And doctor Anna's journal, and I'm like, you really don't 257 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: you seem to know that she had a husband named 258 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: Hawkeye and that Hawkeye had been killed, Like well, and 259 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: we have so many examples throughout history of white people 260 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of making their own versions of an indigenous person's 261 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: name that are often screwy, but at least like an 262 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: attempt was me somebody try? Well, yeah, And like sometimes 263 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: there are like sounds that a person who's not a 264 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: native speaker of a language right can like either really 265 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: struggle to make or like can cannot their mouth cannot 266 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: move that way. But then there's also like just a 267 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: trend of making up different names and not really trying 268 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: and like that. So this does have that like you're 269 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: either telling me that you couldn't be bothered to make 270 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: up a name for her, or that like, uh, doctor 271 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: Anna could not be bothered to write her name, like what, 272 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: there's questions there. I do not have the context or 273 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: why Norman Ferrell had such a bee in his bonnet 274 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: about this. I tried to find more information about this person. 275 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: I found a couple of scattered references to someone who 276 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: was probably him. He was local to the area, he 277 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: lived in another town not far away. I think he 278 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: may have owned like kind of an antique store slash 279 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: estate sale kind of business, based on some newspaper advertisements 280 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: and stuff. I don't know if he was just a 281 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: very interested person in local history and felt very personally 282 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: invested in debunking a story that he thought was incorrect, 283 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: or if there's some other context going on, right, but 284 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: like this like literally ten exhibits of things that he 285 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: thought was evidence that the L. Hugh Hall's whole account 286 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: was wrong. And I don't. I kind of imagine him 287 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: as just like having a bee in his bonnet, and 288 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't really know. I thought about putting 289 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: in this in the episode, but I did not in 290 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: a weird and just honestly to me, upsetting irony, because 291 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: there's an element of her story that is about escaping 292 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: an abusive second husband who tried to kill her. Right 293 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: there was an intimate partner violence shelter called the Anna 294 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: Bixby Center named for her, which, unfortunately, as I understand 295 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: it is now permanently closed after its directors were charged 296 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: with fraud a few years ago. So it's like, that's 297 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: just a whole like I think, as I understand it again, 298 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: this like the shelter was something that the community really 299 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: needed and now it is gone because of fraud that 300 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: was perpetuated, which then just made it like a very 301 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: weird irony that it had been named after somebody who, 302 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: like the current account of her, has so many question marks, 303 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: so I felt very weird about that. We also did 304 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: not talk about the ghost story. Tell me, I love 305 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: ghost stories. There is a doctor and a ghost story. 306 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: There is a light that apparently you can see sometimes 307 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: among the bluffs that is supposedly doctor Anna with her candle. 308 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: I think searching for the hidden family treasure. I should 309 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: have refreshed my memory on that aspect of it before 310 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: coming in here, because I just wrote ghost story in 311 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: my notes and I didn't write the tails down about it. 312 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: I have a funny and ridiculous thing, yeah, that one 313 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: of the people that we referenced in the episode had 314 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: the last name Barbie Barbe, and it took every scrap 315 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: of my will not to go Hi, Barbie. They're also 316 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: the last names of Snively and Ferbie. Pretty good. That's 317 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: a great pair of last names. Although I just I 318 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: have so many questions about your methodology, so I want 319 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: to stress we all make mistakes. You and I have 320 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: made mistakes. We have sometimes made large mistakes. We try 321 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: to correct our mistakes when we realize we have made them. 322 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: And I don't want anybody who's written an article about 323 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: doctor Anna to feel embarrassed, because, like we said, like 324 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: it was a jama article, you would expect that it 325 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: would be something you could cite, yeah, and that it 326 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: would be accurate. There are just so many articles that 327 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: are very specifically focused on celebrating this woman for an 328 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: achievement that, even according to this incredibly problematic source, was 329 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: not really her achievement. Like it was this woman known 330 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: as Aunt Shawnee who said it's this plant. Like, I 331 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: found that very frustrating. So yeah, and it may not 332 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: have happened at all. We don't really know. It's really 333 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: really hard to tell at this point. I think because 334 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: in the local area that book and ballads from the 335 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 1: Bluffs like sort of became a part of the cultural 336 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: conversation as they first came out and kind of influenced 337 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: people's quote memory of this woman. So like, how unless 338 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: there is you know, as yet undiscovered family documents that 339 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: could offer some more substantiation, really hard to tell. What 340 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: is family lare and what is family law that came 341 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: from this book decades ago. I did not want to 342 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: get into a thing where I was debunking this entire 343 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: story to day, but that's what happens. You can't go 344 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: back talking about elderly tortoises. Yeah, yeah, uh. And it 345 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: was just sort of a weird irony that the other 346 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: thing that we recorded today was also included an element 347 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: of things that have been re re reported in news 348 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: reporting from the like problematic correct accounts. Yeah yeah, not 349 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: the best, not the best, tricky trickies. Yeah. So a 350 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: happy Friday everyone if you're from southern Illinois and I 351 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: just ran rough shot over your entire cultural tradition. Really sorry, 352 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: this was not what my plan was, but this book 353 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: is not a great source. Feel free to send us 354 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: a note if you like. We're at history podcasts at 355 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com. Did I already say have a great 356 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: weekend or a great you know, Saturday, Sunday at work? 357 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: Whatever's on your plans. I remember the years when I 358 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: worked every Saturday and Sunday, and sometimes those were great days, 359 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: and sometimes there weren't. Whatever's happening, hope it's good stuff 360 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 361 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 362 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.