1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Moss Show, 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: where we're always talking about the world through the lens 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: of politics, finance, and technology, and of course the decentralized 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: revolution of the world is starting to break apart. And 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: I like to bring to you some interesting guests. You 6 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: don't have to listen to me all the time, and 7 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: that's what I have today. I have Marlow Oaks. He's 8 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: the Utah State treasure and we're going to dig into 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: something big and a little bit scary. Marlow, thanks for 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: joining me today. 11 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on Mark. 12 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: The State treasure What. Well, let's talk about this for 13 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: a minute. I saw you being referenced in doctor James 14 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Lindsay's work talking about something called an NAC, a natural 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: asset corporation. I'm just curious, as a Utah State Treasurer, 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: how did this come under your radar? 17 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: Well, so, I've been an outspoken critic of environmental, social 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: and governance and ESG, YEPESG, and so folks that were 19 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 2: familiar with my work, that were really following natural asset 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: companies more closely than I was, they reached out and 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: just said, hey, you ought to you might want to 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: be looking at this This might be of interest to you. 23 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: So that's really how it happened. 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: Great, so ESG, my audience knows all about that. We've 25 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: been talking about that for a long time now in 26 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: deep detail. Let's talk about this NAC Natural Asset Company. 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 3: What is it like? Just break that down for us. 28 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Natural Asset Company is a company that 29 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: would be traded on the New York Stock Exchange and 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 2: raise money globally from investors, just like any other company. 31 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: But importantly, it's not based on economic activity. And that's 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: why the New York Stock Exchange had to apply to 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: the Securities in Exchange Commission to get a rule to 34 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: change its manual and use a different accounting standard than 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: the ones that we use in the United States. Basically, 36 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: gap up and gap is based on economic activity. It's 37 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: very objective, and you know, the money going in and 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: out of a company, it's fairly easy to track. What 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: makes the Natural Asset Company unique is that these companies 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: are designed to manage ecosystem services and to maximize ecosystem services. 41 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: So I basically explain it as the financialization of mother nature. 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: And so what is photosynthesis worth? And because it's basically 43 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: creating a value out of thin air. That's why these 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: are not gap type of accounting standards that we're looking at. 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: We're now looking at un United Nations accounting standards that 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 2: are applying an arbitrary value to basically natural processes that 47 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: all of us benefit from. 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: I want to understand the new way they're assigning value. 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: But let's just talk about the natural processes for a minute. 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: So I think mainly we're talking about like carbon seques. 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: It's a question right pulling carbon out of the air, 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: things like that, But potentially even I don't know if 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: this includes minerals, water, fossil fuels, et cetera. But what 54 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: are you talking about this natural synthesis. 55 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's really trying to manage the natural asset. 56 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: Company is really trying to segregate the land itself from 57 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: the from the natural processes that happen on that land. 58 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: So things like flood prevention with the way land is contoured, 59 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: or the types of plants that are that are on 60 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: the land that prevent soil erosion or or flood floods 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: from happening. It's how much the soil absorbs carbon, how 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: much soil or how much carbon does the soil absorb 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: things like photosynthesis I mentioned, you know, the the converting 64 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide into oxide, and it's managing those processes and 65 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: trying to maximize the good of mother nature and applying 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: a value to that. That's really what the natural asset 67 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: company is trying to do. It's not trying to hold 68 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: land to hold land like you and I might think 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: of as a land investment and turn around and sell 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: it for a higher profit. It's actually trying to manage 71 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: the natural processes on land in a sustainable way, which 72 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: means no unsustainable activity can take place on that land, 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: which means things like grazing, mineral extraction, forestry, oil extraction, 74 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: the things that are happening on federal lands today or 75 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: on other private land. If it were to come under 76 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: the ownership of a natural asset company, the purpose of 77 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: the land changes from trying to generate economic activity to 78 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: trying to shut down own economic activity. 79 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: So already we have that, not this, but for example, 80 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned mineral extraction, so in you know, parts of 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: the country Texas, for example, someone may own the minerals 82 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: under the ground. You own the land and you can 83 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: build something there, but somebody may own the minerals under 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: that in California, the aquifers right, the water rights are 85 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: all kind of divvied up, et cetera. So we sort 86 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: of have that in a sense, but you still get 87 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: use of the land. It's just maybe what's under the 88 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: land is owned. But you're saying with this it's different 89 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: where now they take over the land and every activity 90 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: that happens either on or under the land as well, 91 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: basically taking it out of service. 92 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: Yes, and so you can take land. So the federal 93 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: government has all this land in the West, for example, 94 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: if they put that into or under the management of 95 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 2: a natural asset company, then the federal government still owns 96 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: the land, but it's now managed for completely different purpose. 97 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 2: Same thing with conservation easements. Conservation easements are much more prevalent, 98 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,559 Speaker 2: i would say, east of the Rockies. But those sorry 99 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: conservation easements could be enrolled in a natural asset company 100 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 2: and further prevent economic activity happening on the land that 101 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: is encumbered with the conservation easement. 102 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: So the federal government won't actually sell the land to 103 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: a private corporation. They basically just give the rights to 104 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: the private corporation to then control the land over probably 105 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: a very long period of time, which is sort of 106 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: a semi quasi way of making it private. 107 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's exactly right, because you know, this is 108 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: where you get into constitutional issues with federal land. The BLM, 109 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: for example, is operating under the nineteen seventy six law 110 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: that essentially allowed them to manage lands federal lands for 111 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: multiple uses? Is so all that economic activity? Uh? And 112 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: do they have the right to assign a conservation lease 113 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: which essentially takes precedence over the multiple use leases the 114 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: grazing and the mineral extraction, et cetera. Do they really 115 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: have the ability to do that or or is that 116 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: something that Congress has has the right to do. I 117 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 2: think it's that's a that's a constitutional question that certainly 118 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: is in the four Now. 119 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, now, you mentioned BLM in California, we have lots 120 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: of BLM. In Texas you have no you have no BLM. 121 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting, but we have lots of national parks that 122 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: you can't really do anything in. I'm a dirt bike guy, 123 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: so I kind of follow what happens with the deserts, 124 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: and we've lost a lot of them in California. You 125 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: can't go right dirt bikes out there anymore. But we 126 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: have lots of national parks that we really can't do 127 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: anything with, and those are being conserved, and I think 128 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: I kind of like that. I mean, is it sort 129 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: of just like that, I mean, they just take the 130 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: national parks or you're you're afraid that this could potentially 131 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: creep into now taking over a lot more land that 132 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: could be a big problem. 133 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely the latter where where this is part 134 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: of a bigger agenda. The America the Beautiful is what 135 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: the Biden administration calls it. It's it's basically thirty by thirty, 136 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: the thirty by thirty agenda, So thirty percent of the 137 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: land and water in the United States being preserved by 138 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: twenty thirty, and it has to be basically to the 139 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: level of a national park or wildlife refuge. And so 140 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: we're seeing, for example, in Montana, five point eight million 141 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: acres the Missouri Headwaters Designation that the Fish and Wildlife 142 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: is trying to get this land designated as a wildlife refuge. 143 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: Five point eight million acres. Five hundred thousand of those 144 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: acres are state land. They didn't even tell the state 145 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: of Montana before they announced it. Two and fifty acres 146 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: of private conservation easement land and other private land within 147 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: this designated area. 148 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: I gotta, I gotta cut you off right there. 149 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in listening to the Mark Maus Show, 150 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Marlow Oaks, the Utah State Treasurer, 151 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and we are talking about a new type of company 152 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: called a natural asset corporation that could be going through. 153 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: We're going to come back and explain to you more 154 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: in detail exactly what this is, what it means to you, 155 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: and potentially what we can do about it. 156 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: Don't go away, We'll be right. 157 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: Back, all right, Welcome back. If you're just tune in 158 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: listening to the Mark mas Show, sitting down with Marlow Oaks, 159 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: the Utah State treasure and we are talking about a 160 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: new type of company, a natural asset corporation that the 161 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: SEC is deciding if they want to allow this new 162 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: company in. We're talking about sort of what this means 163 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: and the impacts and so Marlow, I had to cut 164 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: you off abruptly, but you were talking about how potentially, 165 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: like in Montana, they could be taking over five million 166 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: acres and sort of taking it out of existence or use. 167 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: I should say now, Again, when I think about this, 168 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: maybe from a naive mindset, not understanding that there's a 169 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: bigger edge end to here. From a naive mindset, I 170 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: would say, well, like I said earlier, well we already 171 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: have national parks and we should have those. And I'm 172 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: a surfer, I like to be in the ocean every day. 173 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: I want to preserve the environment as well, and I 174 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: guess we should probably have some fish sanctuaries. 175 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 3: It sounds like a pretty good idea. But I guess 176 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 3: what you're. 177 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: Saying is they really want to expand this to be massive. 178 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: You said thirty percent of the land of the United States. 179 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: I don't know what percentage of the land is protected 180 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: right now. 181 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: That's way, it's twelve percent to the level that they 182 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 2: want it. So only twelve percent of the land is 183 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: at the level of protection that would meet the thirty 184 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: by thirty criteria, so you know, eighteen percent more. So 185 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: that's why you're going to see these these large land grabs. Essentially, 186 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: and unfortunately for outdoor recreation enthusiasts, you know, it's you're 187 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: going to start seeing a reduction in access to the 188 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: point where it's only the fittest folks who can get 189 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: into the back country because all other access will be limited. So, 190 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it has a lot of implications for those 191 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 2: of us who enjoy the outdoors. 192 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: How could this affect Utah? Because I know Utah has 193 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: got a great you mentioned backcountry. I get out there 194 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: in the snow quite a bit. I know Utah has 195 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: an amazing land for mountain biking, dirt biking, hiking, fit 196 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: all that. How does it affect Utah potentially? 197 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we're we already have sixty seven percent 198 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: of our state that is owned by the federal government. 199 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: We've got five national parks, and of course the national 200 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 2: parks are highly restricted. You have to have a permit 201 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: to go in, and a lot of times you're you know, 202 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 2: you're not allowed to go off of the designated roads. 203 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: That's that's the kind of thing we're talking about where 204 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: I've seen where they're trying to limit electric vehicles, whether 205 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: it's a you know, an electric bike that's now considered 206 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: a mechanized machine, you know that they can't go on 207 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: certain trails. That's what we're going to see is a 208 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: ratcheting down of access on our public lands. But even 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: more troubling to me is the economic impact this will 210 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: have on our rural communities where you know, so much 211 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: of rural communities produce the basic necessities like agriculture and grazing, 212 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: mineral extraction, those sorts of things. This isn't a direct 213 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: attack on our rural communities and represents a tremendous risk. 214 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Now this is sort of it sounds like it's 215 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: sort of what's what we've seen over the last several 216 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: years with the carbon credits, and they've been mostly doing 217 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: this I think in other countries like Brazil, for example, Hey, 218 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: let's save the rainforest, let's privatize that, and then we'll 219 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: sell carbon credits onto that. So it's similar to that, 220 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. 221 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: I mean I think there's there's definitely some similarities uh 222 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: to that. You could see there's a push, you know, 223 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: to get companies to report on their scope emissions Scope one, 224 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: Scope two, Scope three, you know, carbon emissions uh and 225 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: and so this could be a way to drive demand 226 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: for a natural asset company if if IF insurance company, 227 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: for example, in their investment portfolio, uh, they've invested in 228 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: fossil fuel companies and and have all of these carbon 229 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: emissions that they have to offset. Then you know, they 230 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 2: perhaps they buy into a natural asset company that that 231 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 2: has a certain you know, carbon offset that that they 232 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: list as an asset, and so that that's one way 233 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: that this could could play out. 234 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, now this is sort of again I said, if 235 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: I was naive, it sounds like a good idea if 236 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: I don't really understand the bigger agenda. And and I 237 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: do understand the bigger agenda. And we've started talking about 238 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: this ESG movement, right, this environmental social governance type movement. 239 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: And maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but it's like I said, 240 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: I've been reporting this for a long time, but it 241 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: seems like it's been dying. And I know several states 242 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: and I don't know if Utah joined in that. I'm 243 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: sure you can tell me. I hear the treasurer there. 244 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: But several states pulled their states pensions fronts from Blackrock 245 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: and things like that. I think Florida may have led 246 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: that movement. I know several other states did that. Something 247 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: like six billion dollars in funds got withdrawn from Blackrock, 248 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: and then Blackrock started canceling all their ESG funds. Larry 249 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: Fink doesn't even want to use the word black or 250 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm sorry ESG anymore. So I thought maybe it was 251 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: starting to pivot, not just because of the public backlash, 252 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: but they were shutting down their funds because they weren't profitable. 253 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: Surprise, surprise. 254 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: So I thought, maybe again, maybe I'm being overlap optimistic, 255 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: but I thought it was sort of trending down. Are 256 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: you thinking that maybe it's not trending down or maybe 257 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: they're sort of just changing the name so it doesn't 258 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: have that negative connotation anymore. 259 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: Well, and I think this is where it's important to 260 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: understand what is the agenda behind this. Both the ESG 261 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: and natural asset companies are driven by the climate crisis narrative, 262 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: but the climate crisis is really a pretext to the 263 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: bigger agenda, and that is our economic freedoms. So if 264 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: you look at a UN report from twenty eighteen, they 265 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: commissioned a report and the headline from that was we 266 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: cannot fight climate change with capitalism. The head of the 267 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: un IPCC back in twenty fifteen said, this is the 268 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: first time in the history of the world that we 269 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: have intentionally tried to change the economic system that's been 270 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: in place in the world. Well, the economic system that's 271 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: been in place in the world is capitalism, and they 272 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: later that year, in twenty fifteen, came out with the 273 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: Paris Climate Accord. AOC's chief of staff back in twenty 274 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: nineteen said the Green New Deal wasn't originally about climate. 275 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: It was about how do you change the economic system. 276 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: So that's really the end goal, and so ESG and 277 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: natural asset companies are part of that effort. I believe 278 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: in the case of ESG, I think it's just a 279 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: matter of changing the language, because if you have that 280 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: kind of goal, you're not just going to stop when 281 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: it becomes unpopular to push you know, three letters. 282 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, good point, and to your point, Yes, it's always 283 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: been something about something much bigger, and yeah, they don't. 284 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: It doesn't just go away. 285 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: It sort of just reshifts, changes its name, and then 286 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of comes back. I specifically, I was specifically turned 287 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: off by this idea because of the financialization of it. 288 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we're basically taking public land, taking it away 289 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: from are our use, taking away the economic activity, and 290 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: then putting it into these private companies, probably black Rock, etc. 291 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: Tell me about the the sec change. So I think 292 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: some of this is potentially being hung up in I 293 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: think you said, the SEC is deciding whether they want 294 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: to allow a new type of company like this because 295 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: of the change in accounting that has to happen, and 296 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: so I'm curious. I want to know more just about that, 297 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: how they change that, because, like I said, some of 298 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: these ESG funds were shut down supposedly per Blackrock because 299 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: they weren't making money. But if they don't have to 300 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: make money anymore, then I guess they could continue. 301 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: So I'm curious about that. But I got to take 302 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: a very quick break. 303 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark 304 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: mass Show, sitting down with Marlow Oaks, the Utah State 305 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: Treasure We're talking about these new types of companies, natural 306 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: asset corporations that the SEC is deciding if they want 307 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: to allow to come in there, and it could be 308 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: a big assault on our freedoms, not just for us, 309 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: but for our grandkids, for future generations. We'll be back 310 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,239 Speaker 1: with more on this in a minute. You don't want 311 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: to miss it, don't go way beer back all right, 312 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: welcome back. If you're just tune in, you're listening to 313 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: the Mark Moss Show, and I'm sitting down with Marlo Oaks, 314 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: the Utah State treasure We're talking about these new types 315 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: of businesses that you need to be aware of. We 316 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: need to make sure everybody's aware of these. These are 317 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: natural asset corporations. And so right before the break, I 318 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: was asking you again being the state treasurer. 319 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: Actually I didn't get your response to that. 320 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: I talked about Florida sort of leading the charge on 321 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: pulling pension funds away from Blackrock. 322 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 3: Did Utah jump in on that? 323 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were actually one of the early ones. I 324 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: wasn't I wasn't public about it until later in the year. 325 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: But in January twenty twenty two, we sold all of 326 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: our black Rock exposure in the Treasurer's office. And we 327 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: don't use a lot of the other investment managers for 328 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 2: indexing that a lot of other pensions do in our 329 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: pension plan. So I think we were in a much 330 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: better shape in Utah overall when this all started. 331 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: So let's go back to again. So black Rocks shut 332 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: down several of the ESG funds. They said there was 333 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: poor performance. I've often said that reality will eventually smack 334 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: these people in the face, like it just doesn't work. 335 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: We invest to make money, these won't make money, and 336 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: I thought, that's sort of what we're seeing, and so 337 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: it just sort of doesn't work. And also I would think, 338 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, you can correct me, but 339 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: some of these fund managers, I don't know if they 340 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: have like a fiduciary duty. I mean, they're supposed to 341 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: be making money, and they're supposed to be doing the 342 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: best that they can to make the most amount of money, 343 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 1: and so intentionally going into something else for other reasons 344 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: and making money is sort of against that. But so 345 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: that's sort of a lot of complication and correct me 346 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong on that, but then maybe absolute right. 347 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: And in fact, I wrote an journal in May last 348 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: year that was saying, this is the biggest breach of 349 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: fiduciary duty in the history of our country. 350 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: And I mean even and other companies that are also 351 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: doing things in the name of ESG or DEI that 352 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: are hurting their business, like a Budweiser move or a 353 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: Disney or a Target. I mean, that's a breach of 354 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: fiduciary duty as well, wouldn't it be? 355 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, And think about our free market capitalist system. 356 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: Our free market system really encapsulates our personal freedoms and 357 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: our constitutional liberties. We as individuals have the right to 358 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: choose how we spend our money and how we make 359 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: our money. And so this ESG movement is completely the opposite, 360 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: where we have top down dictates what companies need to do, 361 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: you know, like the Biden administration saying hey, you need 362 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 2: to produce electric vehicles, telling the marketplace what to do. 363 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: I mean, this is totally counter to our economic system 364 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: that is supposed to be based on consumer demand and 365 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: companies meeting that demand, not being dictated to by outside 366 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 2: forces including the UN or global investors saying hey, you 367 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 2: need to do this or we're not going to invest 368 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: with you. 369 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 370 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: Well, I mean you talk about the ev vehicles as well. 371 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: And I mean Ford took was like a four point 372 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: six billion dollar bath on Thatt this last year, and 373 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: I saw a look like Ford and GM, we're both 374 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 1: closing down plans of creating these new plants that they 375 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: were going to do. So again reality smacking them in 376 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: the phase. They're losing money. There's no consumer demand. They 377 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: can dictate top down, but they can't really drive the 378 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: market at the end of the day. 379 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: That's right, And the concern is is that the market 380 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: is being captured. So with ESG, you have these organizations 381 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 2: like net zero Climate Pledges, and they span the financial 382 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: services industry. So banks have signed on to the banking 383 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 2: net zero Alliance, asset managers have signed on to the 384 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: asset managers net zero alliance, insurance companies, et cetera. And 385 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: when they do that and they all adopt an agenda 386 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: and say, hey, we're going to cut down on our 387 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: fossil fuel exposure, you no longer have a free market 388 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: because that captures the marketplace. And that's the danger. 389 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of monopolizes it, if you will, right, so 390 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: in a sense in a different way, but to your point, 391 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: it sort of takes away our options, our choices to 392 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: make that's a now instead of this whole free market. Hey, 393 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: we give you two choices, which one do you choose? 394 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: Kind of that's right, because you know, typically in a 395 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: free market system, if a bank decides I'm going to 396 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: lend money or I'm not going to lend money to 397 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: a certain industry, another bank will lend money to that 398 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: industry because they can make money at it. That's the 399 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: way a free market works. When you have opportunities to 400 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: make money, companies form and they move into that space 401 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: and exploit that opportunity and it becomes a positive and 402 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: that positive for society. When you have agendas that cut 403 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: off capital to certain segments, you no longer have a 404 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: free market. 405 00:22:58,680 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 406 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: Couple of years ago I read a book by Mark Carney, 407 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: previously the head of Bank of Canada and the Bank 408 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: of England and you know, advisor for the UN and 409 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: the WEF and etcetera. Mark Karney's someone you should pay 410 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: attention to. And he said that these businesses that don't 411 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: go along with this will be quote economic roadkill. 412 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that they are threatened. They may lose business, 413 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: they may go out of business, and I mean that's 414 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: the threat. Or they have their boards of directors swapped 415 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: out if they're not sufficiently committed to the agenda. They 416 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: do that through the annual proxy vote. I mean it's 417 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: very serious. 418 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 419 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: So then sort of back to this, the fiduciary duty 420 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: sort of angled. Then a company that a CEO or 421 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: whatever the board, a company that specifically purposely goes into 422 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: something knowing that it's going to underperform, knowing that it's 423 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: going to hurt the performance of the stock or the 424 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: market cap or the business would then be reaching that duty, 425 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: so specifically doing what you know again Heart Target, Disney, etc. 426 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: Has Done could potentially be against that. And again back 427 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: to black Rocks saying they're sitting down their ESG funds 428 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: because of poor performance. But let's get back to this 429 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: accounting change. So if the accounting changes and these businesses 430 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: no longer. 431 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: Have to produce a. 432 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: Profit, or they change the way they produce a profit, 433 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: So explain to me what that's accounting change will do 434 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: and does that sort of effect or protect them against 435 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: making these decisions. 436 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question, and I'm not sure I 437 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: fully know the answer to that. But essentially, you're taking 438 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: non economic activity, assigning an economic value to that, and 439 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: passing it off as as something that investors can rely on. 440 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: That's the recipe for fraud. And the fact that the 441 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: New York Stock Exchange is promoting this idea, frankly, I 442 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: think introduces a reputational risk for them. You're now looking 443 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 2: at introducing an accounting system whose values are based on 444 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 2: some arbitrary number that nobody could justify no matter how 445 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: hard you try. Because these are things like photosynthesis and 446 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: other natural processes that are just part of the world. 447 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 2: In which we live and we all benefit from, and 448 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: they're all necessary and they all have tremendous value. But 449 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: you can't place a value on it. It's totally arbitrary. 450 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 2: And so that's the fundamental problem, and it remains to 451 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: be seen, you know, how this would play out. But 452 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: what's happened in places like in Europe is that they're 453 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: taking those values, the countries are taking those values and 454 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: us putting them on their balance sheet. And so in 455 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: the United States, actually, back in January of twenty twenty three, 456 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 2: the Natural Capital Account or National capital I think it's 457 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: a natural capital account, there was a publication from the 458 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: White House talking about using those values, the value of 459 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: nature in the United States placing it on the balance 460 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: sheet of the United States, and that would essentially give 461 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 2: us more room to borrow more money and create more 462 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: financial problems. I mean, it's crazy. 463 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: Is this something that the Biden administration has been sort 464 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: of either maybe specifically involved in or or not? I mean, 465 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: is this something from the administration that we're seeing pop up? 466 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, because like the OMB, the Office of Management 467 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: and Budget, they're trying to or they look at different 468 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: rules and how do they what's the impact on ecological 469 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: services and really trying to embed this concept across the government. 470 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: And so it really is kind of this whole of 471 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: government approach, similar to what they've said with climate change, 472 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: that they have to use a whole of government government approach. 473 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: I got to cut you off on that, but I 474 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: want to dig back into that. If you're just tuning in, 475 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Markmas Show, I got to take 476 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: a very very quick break, but I'm gonna be right. 477 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 3: Back in a minute. 478 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: You don't want to miss it, don't go away. We 479 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: are right back, all right, Welcome back. If you just 480 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: tune in, you are listening to the Markmas Show, and 481 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Marlow Oaks the Utah State Treasure 482 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: We're talking about these natural asset corporations. I had to 483 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: cut you off abruptly there, Marlow, you were talking about 484 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: the New York Stock Exchange and the JP Morgan. 485 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 3: I think you're saying family. 486 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: The Intrinsic Exchange Group. Yeah, So the Intrinsic Exchange Group 487 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: is really the group that came up with natural asset 488 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: companies that concept, and they were funded by a Rockefeller 489 00:27:52,320 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: Foundation among other entities. And so the the whole idea 490 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 2: that they put forward is that we are not investing 491 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: enough to address climate change and biodiversity erosion. So they 492 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: targeted the number they put forward, the number of five 493 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: point six trillion dollars of under investment annually to address 494 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: climate change and biodiversity erosion, and that the natural asset 495 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: company is the mechanism that they plan to use to 496 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 2: make up that difference. Well, if you take that five 497 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: point six trillion dollars annually, that's twenty five percent of GDP. 498 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: That's sixty eight thousand dollars for every family of four. 499 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: That's either a tax or some other net drain on 500 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: economic activity. Because again, a natural asset company is not 501 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: backed by economic activity. It's simply assigning a value to 502 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: Mother nature processes that we all take for granted and 503 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: all benefit from what some would call positive extranalities. As 504 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: soon as you assign a value to a positive externality 505 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: or a process like this, then there is somebody who 506 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: owns that and that can then be used to charge 507 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: others who use the benefit of that process. And so 508 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: instead of being a positive externality, it has now been 509 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: commoditized and financialized. And that's what we're talking about. It 510 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: is literally we're going down the path of monetizing the 511 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: air that we breathe. 512 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: Scary, scary stuff. I want to I want to switch gears. 513 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: But before we do, let me ask you just one 514 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: last question. So people listening to this, they're scared of this, 515 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: they don't like it, they don't want this future. 516 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: What do we do. 517 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: It's a great question, it's a really important question. We 518 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: were able to get an extension from the Securities and 519 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: Exchange Commission to open comments again. So when they when 520 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: an agency like this puts forward to rule, they op 521 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: a comment period for the public to make comments, either 522 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: for or against. And so people can go to the 523 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: Securities and Exchange Commission website and submit comments and let 524 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: let the Commission know that this is a terrible idea 525 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: and provide arguments against this. They can also, and very importantly, 526 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: reach out to their congressional representatives, and it's very important 527 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: that the Financial Services Committee members in Congress hear from 528 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: us and ask them to initiate oversight hearings on this. 529 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: People can call the New York Stock Exchange and ask 530 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: them to withdraw the application, and so there's you know, 531 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 2: there's definitely things that people can do and certainly have 532 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: your voice heard in the marketplace and alert other people 533 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: to what's going on. We have a very short fuse 534 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: before that comment period closes, basically a week and and 535 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: so we really appreciate the focus on this. 536 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're going to make sure we include to 537 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: that down in the show notes here so we can 538 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: call the SEC writeem comment on that New York Stock 539 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: Exchange and your lawmakers. Let's switch gears for a minute. 540 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: We got about five minutes left here, so I have 541 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: the I have you the treasurer, Marlin Hoaks, the Utah 542 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: State Treasurer. So I'm curious your take on this. This 543 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: week we saw massive news in my world, and that 544 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: is that Wall Street has now adopted a Bitcoin ETF. 545 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: So we have an asset that's the best performing asset 546 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: in history. It's fifteen years old. Now it's not five 547 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: thousand years old like gold, but fifteen years is not 548 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: a small feat. It's beat most companies. Like I said, 549 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: it's the best performing asset. And now it's officially an ETF. 550 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: From a treasurer standpoint, what's your take on that? 551 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: So was that approved? Did the SEC and then improve that? 552 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's approved they're open, they're trading right now. 553 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I'm. 554 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: Eleven eleven went through. 555 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: Wow, eleven ETFs interesting, Okay, Now I think it's I 556 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 2: think it's great. I mean, I to the extent that 557 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: you know that this provides greater economic freedom, I am. 558 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: I'm all for that. I think we see, you know, 559 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: things like a central bank digital currency. That's another whole 560 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: other area that. 561 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: But I'm curious on your take on bitcoin as the 562 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: asset now that it's being an ETF as a treasure So, 563 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: for example, you know, fifteen years now, I'm in the 564 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: bitcoin space. Lots of people I know live on bitcoin 565 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: as their unit of account. We have companies like Michael 566 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: Sailor with micro Strategy who've now adopted it as their 567 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: sort of you know, unit of account as well. Michael 568 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: Sailor's bet is working out very well for him now 569 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: he's four billion dollars or whatever it is. We have 570 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: countries like Al Salvador that have adopted it, and so 571 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, as a state treasurer you're directing sort 572 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: of that treasury. Is it even on your radar now 573 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: that it's an ETF. Obviously it could make it easier 574 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: for you or is it something that you're not even 575 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: really thinking about or looking at. 576 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: No, I am, I'm I'm definitely it's definitely on the radar, 577 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: and you know, i'm i uh think of it in 578 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: the context of a central bank digital currency and protecting 579 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: protecting economic freedom, certainly from an individual perspective. 580 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: But. 581 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's another way of potentially protecting oneself 582 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: from the centralized power associated with a central bank digital currency. 583 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: From a from an investment perspective, I think it's a 584 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: very interesting concept. It seems to have both inflationary and 585 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: deflationary hedging characteristics, So you know, definitely it's definitely on 586 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: on my radar and and something that that I'm interested 587 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: in in keeping track of. Definitely. 588 00:33:59,520 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 589 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, one more piece that Wall Street's trying 590 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: to financialize. They want to get their things into everything, 591 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,959 Speaker 1: if you will. But I put something up earlier today 592 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: and it's sort of a lot of people are saying 593 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: it's sort of like this, We hopefully think it could 594 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: be sort of this trojan horse, if you will, where 595 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: it's like, as of right now, for whatever we can 596 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: see into the future, there's really no way to get 597 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: a hold of it. Owning more bitcoin doesn't give you 598 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: any more control over the network. You can, like Michael Saylor, whatever, 599 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand bitcoin, or you could have 600 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: a fraction of one, and it doesn't give you any 601 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: more control over the network. And so no matter how 602 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: much Wall Street buys, it doesn't really give them an advantage. 603 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: They could obviously use it to manipulate and suppress the price. 604 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: They could certainly do that, but not the network itself. 605 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: And so to your point, yes, certainly, it's probably the 606 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: greatest tool that we have as of right now for 607 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: individual freedom. I kind of believe that without the freedom 608 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: to transact, we don't really have any freedoms. 609 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: That's exactly what I tell people. If we do not 610 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: have that economic freedom, we don't have any other. 611 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: Freedom exactly exactly. And so the ability to transact without 612 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: a middleman, peer to peer in the digital age is 613 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: uh is really big. And the ability to hold my 614 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: savings in a way that can't be debased is really big. 615 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,439 Speaker 1: And and unfortunately we just look at the trend and 616 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: do we have more money printing ahead in the future 617 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: or less? Yeah, and do we have more? 618 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: And the one thing that gives me pause. Is the 619 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: attack on energy and are we going to see, you 620 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 2: know what when power goes down what happens to bitcoin? 621 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: But I just don't know. You know that there's so 622 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: many crazy things going on in the world. It's hard. Yeah, 623 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 2: you know, And and so that's why I think it's 624 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 2: important for people to be diversified overall. 625 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Like I said, I was 626 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: just curious from a treasurer standpoint, just because, like I said, 627 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: I know, now businesses they change the accounting rule now 628 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: the ftsb so now changes the way that you can 629 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: hold bitcoin or you can account for it on your books. 630 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: That was a big deal that went through about a 631 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: month ago. And now with the with the ETF and 632 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: so I'm sure there's lots of other treasury managers, at 633 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: least in public and private corporations that saw what Michael 634 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: Saylor did and made billions of dollars and they're probably 635 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: thinking about it as well. So I was just curied 636 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: about it. 637 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: And is it considered it's not considered a security, correct. 638 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: It's no, it's not. It's not a security. It's a commodity. 639 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: It's the only only cryptocurrency that's a commodity. Okay, yeah, 640 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: because there's no there's no common issuer, no one issues 641 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: it right anyway. 642 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 3: Uh, that's what we got. We're sort of out of 643 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 3: time here. 644 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking the time. This is a 645 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: very important subject. Like I said, we're going to make 646 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: sure to put in the show notes down below, ways 647 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: that you can get in touch with the SEC for 648 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: comments and things like that, Marlow Oaks, the Utah State Treasure, 649 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: anything else that you want to say in closing. 650 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate the attention to this. It's critical 651 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: that people act, and they act quickly and and and 652 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: take the steps that we outlined and let their voices 653 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: be heard. I think we are making a significant difference. 654 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 3: All right, thanks so much. Appreciate you