WEBVTT - When Finance Is a Weapon of War 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovik. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.479 Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.439 can also listen to our radio show at two pm 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:27.880 Eastern Time on the Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.680 YouTube search Bloomberg clovel News. Well, a story on the 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.760 Bloomberg about the omicron variant being much deadlier than the 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.720 seasonal flu, why that's important to remember, and also why 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.040 it's also important to remember that there will be a 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.320 next pandemic. It's the subject of a new book by 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.920 Bill Gates, by the way, and that's something that's highlight 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:46.960 in the Pursuit section of the current new issue Bloomberg 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.080 Business Week Magazine. We talked about it with Chris Rouser. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.120 That will be in our weekend show. Well. Dr Andy 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.480 Pecos is professor of molecular microbiology and immunology at the 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.800 Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Bloomberg 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.320 School of Public Health is supported Michael R. Bloomberg, founder 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.760 of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Pekosh joins us 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.040 once again on the phone from Baltimore. Dr Pekosh, How 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.880 are you doing well? How are you all? We're doing well. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.040 Carol and I were talking earlier about the mass mandates 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:13.720 being lifted in different parts of the country, and indeed 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:15.640 it's something that's gonna be happening in New York. Friends 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.360 texting me in the last few days that their students, theirs, 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.720 their kids are no longer masked at school, and my 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.160 friends are pretty appreciative of that. Um. When you take 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:24.960 a look at where the United States is, how would 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.120 you describe it? Well, you know, we're we're. Everything is 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.039 trending in the really good directions. In some parts of 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.319 the country, case numbers are still a little bit higher 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.200 from my taste, at least to be able to relieve 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.800 a lot of the public health interventions. But everything is 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.920 looking like it's moving in the right direction. No new 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.240 variants that are of high concern are coming down the 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.760 pipeline at least immediately. So I think we're in a 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.280 really good place right now for most of the population, 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.880 I guess I would say the exception would be, you know, 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.080 the people who are highly susceptible to severe COVID, the elderly, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.120 those with OFMS immune systems. Those are populations we still 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.200 need to monitor carefully because COVID can be such a 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.200 severe disease in those populations. But for most people, things 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.400 are trending in the right direction, but we do need 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.520 to I'm sorry, ahead, well, I was just wondering. You know, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.240 you said case numbers are still too high for you 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.640 to be comfortable. What is that number that you'll that 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.560 you'd like to see for for you to say, Okay, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.160 wait a second, We're no longer in a pandemic. This 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:22.960 is now endemic because we are still seeing tons of 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.919 thousands of new cases every day exactly. And I think 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.519 you have to look locally to see how your spread 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.639 is locally. Um one good parameter rate is if your 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.120 positive test positivity rate is about two per cent or so, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.080 that really tells you that two things are going on. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.280 Case numbers are low and you've got enough testing going 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.920 on to really be confident that you're detecting a lot 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.160 of the cases out there. Uh. What's interesting too is 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.679 and I do think about this. As I said, I 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.760 was like perplexed landing in Chicago Tuesday night, getting into 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.760 a hotel outside of Chicago, and nobody had masks on 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.280 because they just pulled the mask mandate And to say 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.560 Dr peckash, I was like, you know what to do? 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.200 I had my mask on, I left it on. I 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.799 felt awkward. People were like, oh, keep mask like and 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:10.200 nobody else had a mask on. Um, but I I 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.320 have to rely on my community to do the right thing, 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.680 and we know that that unfortunately, our community hasn't. So 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.560 what's your advice to us increasingly as we go forward 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.520 with this and and what are the numbers that you're 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.120 gonna be watching that we don't. Is it just a 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.320 case of an uptick of cases that will remind us 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.360 that you know, it's still not completely safe. Well, you know, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.000 the CDC recently updated their guidance from mask wearing, which 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.400 is what really uh precipitated all of these mandates being relieved. 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.040 You know, I think number one, you should always go 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.040 with how you feel and your conscience and if you're 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.120 not feeling comfortable going out without masks, please mask up. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.280 I still mask up when I go out, uh to 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.160 two groceries, shopping in other places as well too. I 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.800 think there's nothing wrong with masking up. Um, Wearing a 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.600 mask for yourself is still good for protecting you, and 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.880 I think that's something everybody should feel comfortable doing if 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.320 they want to. Um, you know, I'm hoping that that 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.520 that what we're going to see now is that COVID 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.720 becomes a bit more seasonal, So as we get to 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.360 warmer weather, it will be less and less likely that 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.760 we see significant surges of cases. So that will really 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.680 be in a period of time now where we can 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.000 be a little bit more um comfortable that conditions won't 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.920 be right for large surges of cases. So okay, well 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.719 let's talk about those conditions. Um. You know. Carol mentioned 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.280 Bill Gates's new book that's reviewed in the upcoming issue 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.800 of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. We've talked a lot about 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.800 the idea of the next pandemic, But before we get 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.359 to the next pandemic, I want to think about the 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.080 next variant, and I wanted us to have a realistic 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.560 set of expectations, because I remember how I felt in 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.599 June of one when I went to a wedding and 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:47.880 it seemed like COVID was absolutely gone and we had 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.240 turned this corner. And then you know, a few days later, boom, 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.040 delta variant. We get out of the delta variant. Boom, 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.480 it's the omicron variant. Um, how should we be? How 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.479 should we be planning for our own future? It's just 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.640 just in terms of risk taking and and and setting expectations. 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.520 So you know, I'm not slapped across the face again, right, Yeah. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.720 I think what stars KVID two has shown us is 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.120 when it entered the population two years ago, it was 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.599 a virus that could spread well, but it really wasn't 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.919 optimal for infecting people. And what you've seen now, maybe 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.599 with a macron as the pinnacle, is this virus really 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.080 adapt to be able to infect and spread the human population. 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.680 So it will be here. We will see continuing variants 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.680 emerge because um, that's what viruses do. They mutate, and 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:36.840 if they mutate in the way that makes them better 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:41.240 at infecting people, then they will become the dominant virus. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.720 But the most important thing is we have now vaccines 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.040 that induce population immunity. Now that's different from her immunity. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.240 Population immunity just means that we're gonna dampen disease severity. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.039 We're gonna damp in numbers of cases a bit, and 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.840 we're gonna be able to reach an area where we 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.040 can control the numbers of cases through vaccination and treatments 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.560 and avoid those severe cases. And that's where I hope 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.679 we're going to be, particularly in a few months, because 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.880 as more treatments come on board, UM, as people get 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.200 us hopefully little bit more comfortable with vaccines UM and 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.120 taking them UM, we will be able to get all 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.760 of this population immunity together. That's going to really minimize 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.200 the threat of severe COVID for most of us. You're 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:28.200 listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.440 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, as we 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.440 just talked about the world increasingly sanctioning Russia following that 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.040 invasion of Ukraine. We just talked about the US adding 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.719 sanctions to Vladimir Putin's press secretary, limiting the travel of 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.520 nineteen others in terms of Russians and forty seven of 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.000 their families. So the news continues to flow. Bloomberg's Nick 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.360 Boddam writing about how the crackdown on Russia's economy that 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.600 could have consequences that last decades. Nick Wadham's Bloomberg News 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.040 foreign policy reporter, he'd us on the phone from Washington, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.560 d C. Nick, you know, the headlines continue to come 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.920 in terms of moves by the US, UH and other 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.760 nations around the world going against Russia. At this point, 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.040 tell us about your reporting and why this may stay 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.240 with us much longer than we all anticipate. Well, I 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.560 think the concern I heard from folks on the outside 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.880 and also a couple of people on on the inside 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.600 of the administration is essentially that the US is ramping 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.880 up so hard and fast on Russia right now, um, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.400 in response to the invasion that they fear there's not 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.640 really like a longer term plan for Okay, then, what 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.280 like if you if you sanction all the folks around 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.760 Putin and all these companies, what are the what are 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.040 the conditions under which you actually unwind these sanctions and 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.680 what are they actually trying to achieve? Is it just 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.040 purely about punishment or is it trying to induce some 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.720 sort of behavior, and the problem sanctions theorists will tell 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.840 you is that if you're trying to duce behavior with 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.840 crushing sanctions like this and often only just has the 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.560 opposite effects. So it's a concern about not really understanding 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.120 or thinking through what the consequences of all these sanctions 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.120 might end up be. Right, we understand the means in 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.960 terms of going after Vladimir Putin in Russia, Right, we 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.080 see that with the sanctions we don't necessarily know what 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.160 the end game is here, certainly when it comes to 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.360 the US UH and NATO allies. What are some of 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.760 the things that are being talked about that maybe need 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.440 to be put before President Putin is saying here's what 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.920 we need you to do. Well, I mean, this is 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.840 a great challenge because, of course, obviously the first thing 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.320 they would say is, okay, what we need you to 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.360 do is reverse the invasion, which he's obviously showing no 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.000 signs that he's going to do. So at that level, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.199 you know, it does feel like we're caught in this 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.720 bind of wanting to do something, wanting to respond in 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.720 some way, but then you know there's this concern that 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.079 actually the response doesn't achieve the desired end. But the 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.800 question that I'm really trying to dive into now is, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.000 you know, these lower level folks, so the oligarchs around Putin, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:04.679 you know what what needs to happen with them? What 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:06.319 do they need to do that it do they need 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.960 to publicly disavow Putin does? What are the things that 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.200 they can do that are actually in their control to 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.680 get these sanctions lifted? And so far I haven't seen 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.840 a clear articulation of what the US actually wants from them, 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:20.559 And I think you're going to start to see that 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.520 over the next little while, a better articulation of of 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.360 what they're actually going to need to do. But at 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.480 the moment, the administration is not saying what it's asking 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.559 them to do. If anything, Nick, one of the things 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.840 that jumped out for me and your latest reporting, and 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.920 I think about this when we're dealing with UM leaders 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.320 of countries, UM that especially in more troubled areas of 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.760 the world, that there that we need to think about 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.959 face saving measures that that is important to them in 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.319 terms of their position. How do we need to think 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.040 about that when it comes to President Putin specifically. Well, 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.720 it was interesting because Jen suck he was actually asked 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.920 about that very issue today at the briefing. You know, 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.920 is there some sort of face saving measure that Russia 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:08.000 could could do? Uh? And her suggestion was, you know, 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.720 it's way too early to talk about face saving measures 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:15.880 because this this military campaign is so intense. But but 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.040 the impression I get from speaking to folks on the 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.920 inside of the administration is that yes, they are going 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.480 to or they say they are going to start doing 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.600 that at some point. The question is whether Vladimir Putin 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.160 will see these US actions as something that gives him 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.959 the opportunity to do that. I mean, I mean, the 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:33.960 US is saying, listen, we're not going to commit troops 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.120 on the ground. But you know, Vladimir Putin doesn't see 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.600 this as a substitute for war. He sees it as 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.760 an element for war. So then that provokes the bigger question. Okay, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:48.400 he may respond, not necessarily with financial retaliation or whatever 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.760 it might be, but something more kinetic. And I think 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:52.920 I think you're starting to see a sense that that 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:54.760 the US is going to need to prepare for that. Well, 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.800 that's what I was curious too, And I'm thinking about 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.199 sanctions in general. I mean, the world has ramped up especially. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.720 I feel like this week in terms of financial sanctioning 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.320 UM and whether it's stocks, the Russian market, the rouble 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.440 the oligarchs, um, are we getting to the end of 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:14.120 that In terms of financial sanctioning, well, I think there 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.600 is more they can do. I mean, the question of 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.640 whether it works or not, that's one thing. I mean, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.560 a lot of the oligarchs are the folks who were 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:24.520 named today had previously been sanctions, So it's not like 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.800 it's going to have any real new impact on them 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.240 unless the U S is it's promised, really goes after 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.240 their assets in a way that it hasn't done before. 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.559 But there is obviously the energy sector, and that is 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.560 the big sort of untouched area where the US has 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.120 has so far decided it is not going to to 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.880 sanction Russia because of the fear about the blowback on 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.920 the US market. But based on conversation I and some 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.880 of my colleagues are having with officials and folks on 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.720 the outside, it does appeal here that there's a growing 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.880 movement towards figuring out some way to squeeze the Russian 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.240 energy sector to really try to break the back of 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.520 Vladimir Putin's calculs again will it work. There's not a 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.360 lot of evidence. I mean you've looked Lebron, Syria, Cuba. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.760 There's no real evidence that their behavior has changed. But 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.320 this is what the administration. Hey just got Nick, about 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.800 thirty seconds left here. So as you lay out, you know, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.520 we've got to be you know, tell President Booten kinda 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.599 what we need him to do. Are those conversations of 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.800 going on inside the White House are among the President's cabinet. 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.800 I mean we're just you know, played back some sound 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:31.360 he's meeting with them right now earlier from conversations is no, 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.520 they are not at that point yet of telling Bloodin 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.360 what he needs to do beyond all team the invasion. 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.640 Hopefully we'll get a better sense of the next few days. 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.400 All right, Well, really appreciate the update. Nick Waddams. He 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.160 is our foreign policy reporter at Bloomberg News. This is 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.160 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.000 Tim Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. In this week's new issue 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.600 of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, it's a special report. By 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.320 the way, the magazine it's all about the war in Ukraine, 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.320 and the magazine specifically taking a deep dive into the 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.480 tactic of using finance as a weapon. So let's get 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.840 to it. Bloomberg News Financial Investigation senior writer Stephanie Baker 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.400 on the phone from London along with Business Week editor 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.800 Joe Weber here in our Bloomberg Interactor Broker studio in 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.319 New York. UM. I talked to Stephanie earlier. I've already 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.200 said this is Tim and I were saying favorite story 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.320 of the week. It is a really good one and 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.559 one of those ones where you know, you just are 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.120 thankful for having colleagues who have been around and covering 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.400 things for for a bit because, um, as she writes 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.720 the story, Stephanie has been a close watcher of Russia 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:38.360 for for decades now. Um. And to rewind the clock here, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.600 you know, coming out of the wall coming down, all 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.800 of arcs amassed a whole bunch of of of assets basically, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.920 and we're able to basically become billionaires in the process. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.120 And we've long seen the repercussions of that. And a 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.800 key way that sort of the the US and the 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.680 UK and the EU are attempting to sort of fight 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.360 back to Putin's aggression is by targeting some of those 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.880 um olive arcs UM. So, so stephaniely walk us through 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.040 how that's played out so far and how how it 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:18.040 could play out yet. Well, the sanctions keep coming fast 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.119 and furious. The UK and the US just announced additional 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:28.359 aligarcs UM that have been sanctioned. The UK UM targeting 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:36.600 to prominent Russians UM billionaire Alisher Usmanoff and um uh 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.640 Igor Shuvalov, who is a former government official but he 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.760 hEDS the state he's the chairman of the State Bank 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.280 bb UM. And then the US did the same, sanctioning 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:51.120 Usmanoff and a string of others, including their family members 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.480 in many cases. So UM, the US going further trying 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.560 to put pressure on them UM. And you know, I 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.320 think we're to just see more coming UM as they 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.920 work their way through UM the list and try to 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.720 figure out, you know what, what's the best way to 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.080 continue to put pressure on Putin. There are many more 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.320 on the list, you know, people billionaires who for instance, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.440 met with Vladimir Putin when he called them in last week. UM. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.960 So I would expect further steps from both the UK, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.280 from both London and Washington. So London is an interesting 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.520 one here because London Grad long been a nickname and 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.480 UK been a little slower on on targeting and sanctioning 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.080 them than than the EU and US. Um. And what 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.880 do you make of that coming from London? Yeah, it's 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.920 it's been a real um. You know, they talk a 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:50.280 tough game the UK, but they've just failed to follow through. Um. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.920 And I think you know, as you said, it's been 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.560 nicknamed London Grad because so many Russians love to come 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:01.000 here and buy mansions and send their kids to schools here. Um. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.680 But you know, the legal climate is making it I 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.400 think a little bit more complicated and difficult, particularly post 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.440 Brexit um for the UK government to move. And it's 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.160 surprising that they didn't have a lot of this prepared 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.320 because they had been warning for so long about this 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.360 invasion that they hadn't done the ground mark beforehand to 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.520 try to target some of these oligarchs. Um. You know 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.120 the moves that they announced just tonight. Um. Okay, there 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.920 are two additional oligarchs that everyone has been saying, why 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.440 aren't these guys sanctioned? Um? But that's a still a 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.760 small step compared to what the European Union has done, 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.880 which has been much more aggressive UM and sanctioning, you know, 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.720 triple the number that the UK has, and seizing yachts um. 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.360 You know it's the French seized the yachts of the 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.600 CEO of Rossness State, the state backed oil company UM 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:58.360 today and um uh usman Off, the billionaire who was 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.480 sanctioned by both the UK and the US today. His 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.920 yacht was sanctioned by the Germans in Hamburg. So UM. 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.439 You know, Europe has been a surprise player here in 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.760 terms of its aggressive moves. Stephanie, you what's great about 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.560 talking to you is that and you write this in 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.440 your story that you witness the collapse of the Soviet 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.480 Union back you were in Prague. You are a college 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.760 or recent college graduate. Um. What is it that maybe 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.280 we've misread um as a world because there was so 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.800 much hope there, you know, hope at that time. But 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:35.560 here we are today. Yeah, I mean, you know, thirty 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.800 years a sort of as a business journalist, I reported 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.720 on it Western companies trying to get into Russia. UM. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.800 You know, obviously there's a whole sordid story of you know, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.160 how the Russian state went about privatization and created all 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.399 of these oligarchs to begin with, and you know, huge 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.479 problems in the way that we've done. UM. But you 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.640 know now what you have is and I think it's 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.440 really sad, um that there are a lot of you know, UM, 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.000 all this all this effort to try to integrate Russia 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.160 and the global economy and create a sort of functioning 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.919 business sector has been completely destroyed, you know, in a 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.720 in a week, um, because of the actions of Putin. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.399 And you know it'll be very hard to recover that, UM, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.080 But it's the only way, you know, because the NATO 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.400 does not want to be engaging in a direct war 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.560 with another nuclear power, they have to use these sanctions 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:40.399 as their only tool, um, really to try to force 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.560 Putin to stand down, to try to isolate him starving 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.320 of the funds he needs to wage this war. All Right, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.320 We're gonna leave it on that note. UM. There's so 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:50.879 much in this story, and there's so much in the 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.480 coverage in the magazine this week, and Stephanie, we know 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.919 you've been really busy, so thank you for for finding 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.920 time for us once again. Stephanie Baker, she's financial investigation 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.000 senior writer at Bloomberg News. On the phone from London. 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.000 Check out her story and the other stories that are 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:07.760 in the magazine this week. You can find it on 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.280 the Bloomberg at Bloomberg dot com and on newsstands and 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.000 our thanks to Joe Webber, editor a Business Week. You're 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:17.000 listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:21.520 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. So another of 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.320 our most read stories on the Bloomberg Today, how has 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:29.000 to do with indexing major index providers officially cutting Russian 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.480 assets from their engauges. So really ratcheting up the pressure 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.560 on exchange traded fund industry already facing an extraordinary stress test. 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.919 We know what happens? Then. Carolina Wilson is senior Emerging 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.359 markets reporter for Bloomberg News. She joins us on the 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.600 phone from New York. Carolina, how does it? How does 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.960 it work when you actually drop a company or a 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.080 group of companies this in this case a region from 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.720 an index fund? How is that done? Yeah? Hi, and 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.399 thanks for having me. You know, it depends, It depends 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.919 on the phone that we're talking about. These bigger indexes 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.400 by MSCI insle Do Russell, they're tracked by broader emerging 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.200 market ets, those that cover the global complex a bit 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.240 more generally, and those have a pretty small explosure to Russia, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.520 maybe three to four percent of the fund holding. So 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.080 the bigger stress questioned question and question here is what 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.680 does this mean for those single country e T s 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.119 holding Russian assets a bit more exclusively? And while some 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:24.919 of it is a way to see game, we know 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.320 that many of these funds will have difficulty actually selling 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.240 those underlying Russian assets to either comply with these index 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.920 changes or in response to investors trying to their position. 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.640 Tarlie and I remember a time when the fun industry 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.440 was starting right in those big countries. Single country funds 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.280 were massive, and that's how investors would often you know, 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:47.840 look to get exposure, especially when it comes to an 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.640 emerging market like Russia. Um, but I'm curious how much 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.520 money are we talking? What kind of you know, fund 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.600 flows have we been seeing in these specific type of funds. Sure, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.520 so when we look at sort of the globally listed 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.400 e T s tracking Russian assets a bit more exclusively 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.760 as a closed yesterday, that was about I believe one 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.680 point seven billion US dollars. And you're right careful, you know, 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:12.879