Speaker 1: Welcome to Playback, a Variety podcast. I'm your host, Variety
Speaker 1: Awards editor Chris Tapley. On today's show, we recount chaos
Speaker 1: at the Oscars as Moonlight one over La La Land
Speaker 1: in a twist no one saw coming. A little bit later,
Speaker 1: I'll be talking to logan director James Mangold, so stick around. Well, Hey,
Speaker 1: anything fun happened this weekend? What a cluster? I know,
Speaker 1: it's like I don't want to like over sell it,
Speaker 1: but I don't think you can. I was doing an
Speaker 1: interview with German TV yesterday and they were like, you know,
Speaker 1: would you consider this, like, you know, the biggest thing
Speaker 1: to ever happen at the Oscars? And I was like,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, hands down, without doubt. Yeah. I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's one of those things like I still can't really
Speaker 1: believe it happened. Me too. I woke up this morning
Speaker 1: and like double checked. I've rewatched him multiple times. It's
Speaker 1: like the Bruder film to me, and I was getting
Speaker 1: mad because people had edited versions. I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I want to see the whole thing from start to finish,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to see that because of watching
Speaker 1: at home. You know, there was that moment where the
Speaker 1: stage hands rushed on and you could see like people
Speaker 1: looking at each other and you you just knew. And
Speaker 1: I was like thinking, oh my gosh, did they get
Speaker 1: the name wrong. No, they couldn't, they couldn't. It's I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, I just love Twitter
Speaker 1: exploded with literally all caps. What is happening? Happening? Yeah,
Speaker 1: in case you've been under a rock, we're talking about
Speaker 1: the Oscars where Warren Batty was handed the wrong envelope
Speaker 1: for Best Picture. He was handed a duplicate Best Actress envelope,
Speaker 1: had no idea how to proceed when he was looking
Speaker 1: at Emma Stone's name on the card, which I guess
Speaker 1: I can't blame you if you're like I mean, on
Speaker 1: one hand, he's warm, baby like, like he's weathered the
Speaker 1: spotlight his whole career, but known as an improviser. Is
Speaker 1: I told I feel bad. I thought he was doing
Speaker 1: a bit. Yeah. I think everybody thought he was just due.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna act like I don't want to tell you
Speaker 1: who it is, like, but no, he was like, uh,
Speaker 1: there's a moment where he looks behind Fae like he's
Speaker 1: looking off stage right. Yeah, in retrospect, you know, you
Speaker 1: you see all the ways that people have tried to
Speaker 1: get out of this, But at the time, I literally tweeted, um,
Speaker 1: come on, Warren, this is an American idol and then
Speaker 1: don't very bad done away, you know, bust his ball
Speaker 1: and she's like, oh, you're impossible. Yeah, come on, He's like,
Speaker 1: well here you read it. I think he was just
Speaker 1: showing it to her, like he was just like, what
Speaker 1: do we do here? And she's like, La La Land.
Speaker 1: And but what's sounds crazy is by all logic, it
Speaker 1: was supposed to be La La Land. So really the
Speaker 1: snaff who shouldn't have mattered. But then the fact that
Speaker 1: Moonlight was the winner was amazing. Yeah, that's that's that's
Speaker 1: that's true. Like on top of everything, it's like like
Speaker 1: they could have nobody would have known it had just
Speaker 1: gone the way people expected because anyone made the comparison.
Speaker 1: Yet I'm sure someone has that it's basically the year
Speaker 1: Crash one in reverse, where where like, you know, we
Speaker 1: were expecting Brokeback Mountain and then it was crashing. Everyone
Speaker 1: was angry. He were expecting La La Land. But then
Speaker 1: the movie that like regarding the reaction to yeah, it's
Speaker 1: definitely the first time since Brokeback Mountain that you know,
Speaker 1: like a movie kind of crashed on the waves of
Speaker 1: on on on the on the shore of success as
Speaker 1: another movie kind of is it the long Ahead? You know,
Speaker 1: well it is. It's almost even more shocking because and
Speaker 1: you know, I love Moonlight and I'm thrilled but at
Speaker 1: one but it didn't win SAG Ensemble. You know, it
Speaker 1: had no precursors to this was Colonel down into this.
Speaker 1: But why should we predict anything next year? I know, right,
Speaker 1: there's nothing. I early on, I was just like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be an offer. And the weird thing
Speaker 1: is I got the most random things right, like you know, editing,
Speaker 1: hack saw, I think you picked Taxa. Oh you didn't, Okay,
Speaker 1: so Tim and Taxa I thought I did, but I
Speaker 1: guess I picked sound editing. Okay, Yeah I went with
Speaker 1: you on that. Um, thanks Chris. So. Yeah, there was
Speaker 1: a lot of things that I actually got right that
Speaker 1: like I never would have gotten right, and then I
Speaker 1: got huge things wrong like Best Picture and Actor. Yeah
Speaker 1: there's another thing, SAG Best Actor combo. You know, the
Speaker 1: last time the SAG winner lost, what was it, probably
Speaker 1: George Clooney note Clooney, I'm so sorry Viola Davis when
Speaker 1: she won for the specifically best Actors. Oh, you have
Speaker 1: to go back to Johnny Depp for Parents of the Caribbean,
Speaker 1: which is weird, which nobody thought he would really win
Speaker 1: the Oscar for that, So that happened. I truely the
Speaker 1: name of the podcast that happened. What else you know?
Speaker 1: I personally am a little annoyed about the foreign film situation.
Speaker 1: So you really think people voted as a protest. I
Speaker 1: know there are people who think that movie is great
Speaker 1: and think, oh, just one on its own whatever. There
Speaker 1: are also people who don't think it's great, who think
Speaker 1: it's as Gar's weakest film so far. Yeah, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been my pick, but he still is the biggest
Speaker 1: quote unquote name. But I just think no one's talking
Speaker 1: about that statement obviously, but for other reasons. And it
Speaker 1: just seemed like a statement quote unquote that wasn't going
Speaker 1: to get much further than the steps of the theater.
Speaker 1: Like it just seemed like you should make an honest decision.
Speaker 1: I think about what you think the best film is
Speaker 1: not giving a guy who's in London who can't make
Speaker 1: a statement on his own who granted sent uh very
Speaker 1: important people. Yeah, who was the woman? I was the
Speaker 1: first I think, Yeah, it's great, it's a great story
Speaker 1: in itself. But it's just I don't know, it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things we're being overtly political with awards.
Speaker 1: It doesn't settle right with me. I don't even know
Speaker 1: how to explain what I mean. I genuinely think that
Speaker 1: most people who voted for the Salesman really picked the Salesman,
Speaker 1: would have picked it otherwise. But and you know, I'm
Speaker 1: who knows who even saw like, well, I know Tony Herdman,
Speaker 1: there weren't fans. There weren't many fans left of that.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of fans of the last ninety minutes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if they got there. I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: who walked out of that and just just it takes
Speaker 1: it a while for that movie to catch it stride,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I mean I think my my pick
Speaker 1: probably would have been man called. Yeah, that's what I
Speaker 1: thought was gonna happen. I think in the old system,
Speaker 1: you know, before they sent the movies to everyone and
Speaker 1: opened the voting to everyone, that probably would have won.
Speaker 1: But so it's still strange to me, l wasn't nominated
Speaker 1: in that category. I'm still strange to me, people thought
Speaker 1: us about whoever was going to win Best Actress, me too,
Speaker 1: But um, I've said that about other people who then
Speaker 1: went on to win, So I'll just shut my mouth.
Speaker 1: I just I didn't think that was ever in the cards.
Speaker 1: It was great to see her at the Oscars, though.
Speaker 1: Somebody was like saying making sort of making fun of
Speaker 1: people at and after parties, saying like, oh, this person
Speaker 1: thought you know, La La Land was going to sweep,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, so did I. That's not
Speaker 1: a c after fourteen nominations, by the way, six wins,
Speaker 1: not to shock absolutely. That's another thing that's sort of
Speaker 1: getting buried in all this that think happened. By the way,
Speaker 1: what do you mean not winning? Um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, do you think the backlash affected it.
Speaker 1: I think it's like there's this combination of stuff, and
Speaker 1: I don't think you can legitimately say it was any
Speaker 1: one thing. All you can really say is Moonlight one
Speaker 1: best picture, and that's amazing. It's amazing, I mean really
Speaker 1: on so many levels. But the different things that like
Speaker 1: you can look at our a yes, there was backlash.
Speaker 1: Why was there a backlash? Well, then you look at
Speaker 1: fourteen nominations, I think even those of us who love
Speaker 1: Law the Land extremely I don't think it really would
Speaker 1: be in that pantheon per se. That's interesting to me
Speaker 1: because I think it's way better than Titanic, which I
Speaker 1: know that's which by the way, I was watching Saturday night.
Speaker 1: I love the movie and I and I probably I
Speaker 1: probably like it more than All About Eve by the way,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not a big All About E fan. Everyone's
Speaker 1: like my brothers. Actually, wait, I dropped my monocle, but
Speaker 1: just some some of the you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a little more modest in its various pieces. Then yeah,
Speaker 1: and you shoot the fault of film because of that.
Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. But I think that maybe that is
Speaker 1: part of what happened, like suddenly it got a little
Speaker 1: too big. I think, Uh, we love to lift things
Speaker 1: up and then tear. Yes, And there's also obviously the
Speaker 1: the entire mood of the country change in November. Uh,
Speaker 1: the nominations were in like right after Trump was inaugurated.
Speaker 1: I think, yes, sounds about right. So you know, reality
Speaker 1: set in in that moment and you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: also there's something said. Yeah, there's also something to be said.
Speaker 1: I mean, we did there's a lot of change in membership, um,
Speaker 1: and there's something to be said for Moonlight was the
Speaker 1: movie that I don't think anyone hated. True, But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I feel like you can't make the
Speaker 1: argument that La La Land was divisive because it won
Speaker 1: a preferential ballot at POP. So again, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to predict anything next year. I'm done with I'm on
Speaker 1: as long as I can get away with it. I'm legitimate,
Speaker 1: legitimately serious about that. Like, look, why bother Until like
Speaker 1: right before the nomination, I yeah, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: predict anything until Sad came out because I really was
Speaker 1: so close to call between Casey and Denzel for me,
Speaker 1: you know, and then so I was like, I'll go
Speaker 1: with the SAG winner, And well that was wrong. I
Speaker 1: was happy for Casey. He looked relieved after a very
Speaker 1: long I know. I mean, obviously a lot of it
Speaker 1: is the culmination of going on of work. And yeah,
Speaker 1: very happy for Kenn Flanagan. I held his Oscar at
Speaker 1: the Amazon after party, which was only the second Oscar
Speaker 1: I've held who is the first birdman achiev Oh photography. Well,
Speaker 1: I am just an oscar slut because he held all
Speaker 1: of his oscars, you know, the first, the first oscarer
Speaker 1: I held. This is so random was Walton Goggins. I
Speaker 1: was doing an interview at his place. He has an
Speaker 1: oscar for short film, a short film called I Think
Speaker 1: the Account Here Account Yes, which is a very good
Speaker 1: little film. Not I forgot yes, and I was I
Speaker 1: was at his house doing an interview and I was like,
Speaker 1: what do you have an oscar? Or is Joel McHale
Speaker 1: calls because it's far a short film, a daytime oscar um.
Speaker 1: And then obviously, um, I think Spike Jones. I held
Speaker 1: his one year um, which he didn't seem to like
Speaker 1: too much. Um. Then I had Rita's. We did show
Speaker 1: with him the day after, so I had all three
Speaker 1: of his and I was trying to look like really bored,
Speaker 1: like whatever, and um yeah. Then last year Achievo brought
Speaker 1: all three of his to isshoot and then less um
Speaker 1: I guess. Sunday night, I was leaving and Justin Hurwitz
Speaker 1: was entering, and he asked if I wanted to hold
Speaker 1: them and get a picture, and there was, and I
Speaker 1: said something like I was like, oh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: is that kind of OSTENTATIONO? Okay, So Jessin actually took
Speaker 1: a photo of me holding his oscars, and then all
Speaker 1: these people started gathering around and taking photos of me
Speaker 1: because they wanted photos of the oscar. Sounds like it's
Speaker 1: gonna be all these photos of like, who's this person?
Speaker 1: I kept saying. I was like, he's he's actually belonged
Speaker 1: to oscars mailed to her going on, I feel weird
Speaker 1: about holding oscars. Well, it is like you gotta do it.
Speaker 1: At least you don't have the chance. It only ever
Speaker 1: happened when someone's literally like here held it out, like
Speaker 1: Chiva was like here, check it out, and I was
Speaker 1: like okay, and you know, Casey like handed me Kenneth
Speaker 1: far against oscars like okay, wow, this is awesome. They're
Speaker 1: heavier than next, and I just, yeah, my feeling is
Speaker 1: you won this, this is yours, so like I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't really feel like I should be touching it,
Speaker 1: but they do. But like I think people who win
Speaker 1: them get it. Like I remember backstage at the Golden Globes,
Speaker 1: my friend who had just won a Globe was like here,
Speaker 1: hold it, and I was like, no, this feels weird,
Speaker 1: Like okay, you know, and then you have to get
Speaker 1: the obligatory photo. Yeah, like I didn't. We we we
Speaker 1: were fortunate to have both Damien Chazelle and Barry Jenkins
Speaker 1: on our cover this week. I didn't uh touch their
Speaker 1: oscars at the shoot? Do they bring them photos and whatnot?
Speaker 1: And uh, really just I was happy we were able
Speaker 1: to do that story because it's it was such an
Speaker 1: interesting moment of seeing these two groups of people who
Speaker 1: legitimately love each other, like going way back to tell
Speaker 1: your ride when they all met. Uh, these movies premiered
Speaker 1: two days apart, you know, law Land premiered in Venice
Speaker 1: and on the thirty one of August, two days later
Speaker 1: Moonlight premier. To tell your Ride, and uh, they've just
Speaker 1: been on the circuit the whole time and they had
Speaker 1: to endure the snaff food together and Jordan Horrowitz, producer
Speaker 1: of La La Land, just handled it like a champ.
Speaker 1: He showed what a great producer he is because nobody
Speaker 1: was doing anything and he stepped up. He said, there's
Speaker 1: a mistake grabbed. I saw some bill on Twitter were
Speaker 1: angry that he snatched the card from Warren Beatty. I
Speaker 1: was like, go back and look at Warren Batty's face
Speaker 1: after he does that. He's not mad at all. He's like,
Speaker 1: the guy is handling like it was and he said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to be proud to hand this
Speaker 1: to my my friends, which was so beautiful and and
Speaker 1: that's the truth. And that's why, you know, seeing these
Speaker 1: two come together for that shoot and that story was
Speaker 1: really awesome. And it's such an awesome mutual admiration society.
Speaker 1: It really is. Yeah, And it's not like, you know,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people like pretend to like
Speaker 1: each other on the campaign trail, but they genuinely like
Speaker 1: they've had to spend so much time together, they love
Speaker 1: each other's movies. It's it's really really, actually kind of heartwarming.
Speaker 1: And when we did the interview, they had not seen
Speaker 1: each other at the parties or anything. They finally that
Speaker 1: morning we're able to compare notes and like, what was
Speaker 1: it like for you? What was like, you know, these
Speaker 1: two guys, we're gonna be seeing their work for a
Speaker 1: long exactly. They're going to be back there. They're a
Speaker 1: part of I think a very exciting new generation of filmmakers.
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is this is the thing like
Speaker 1: all throughout the year with the backlash and stuff, it's
Speaker 1: like those of us who are like, we love both
Speaker 1: of these movies, and it's kind of like that snaff
Speaker 1: who allowed that moment to be seen. Like I'm not
Speaker 1: saying this well, but it's just use your words and
Speaker 1: use your words, Chris. It's just great to see them
Speaker 1: both come together. And it's a weird moment and it's
Speaker 1: like the way Barry put it to me, it was messy,
Speaker 1: but it was gorgeous. It really was, I mean, and
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I wish it hadn't gone down that way.
Speaker 1: I wish that, you know, it had been this pure
Speaker 1: moment for Moonlight. But it's it's weirdly sort of appropriate.
Speaker 1: And I know this has been mentioned at least on Twitter,
Speaker 1: but like I think the funniest tweet I saw was like, hey,
Speaker 1: La La Land, remember when you gave us a glimpse
Speaker 1: of a happy ending and then tore it away. How
Speaker 1: does its weirdly appropriate? It's like a current at all
Speaker 1: creep Bridge. Oh my god, wow you went back for that.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised no one's like I just thought about that yesterday.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's kind of like a more romantic
Speaker 1: version of the movie Yes, Happy the Happy End spoilt
Speaker 1: if you've had sixty years to see a current at
Speaker 1: home bridge and that, ye so, but yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is, well, those of us
Speaker 1: who do this, we know what these two teams think
Speaker 1: about each other. But that moment allowed the world to
Speaker 1: see what these two teams think about each other. And
Speaker 1: I thought that was really great. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily normal either, because this is a cutthroat thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so gosh, what else is there
Speaker 1: to say? Uh? This is did you like the show overall?
Speaker 1: Not really see? I really did. I feel I thought
Speaker 1: Jimmy was like a little tone deaf, like I thought
Speaker 1: holding up the kid from Lyon with the lion Key music. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that about that. Yeah. I don't want
Speaker 1: to say racist, because that's a little but each stream,
Speaker 1: but it felt a little weird and you know, making
Speaker 1: fun of all the foreign sounding names. It's just that. Definitely,
Speaker 1: Bob Hope, like, let's dial it back a bit. Some
Speaker 1: people don't are like over the Jimmy Kimmel, Matt Damon feud.
Speaker 1: I still think it's one of the funniest things ever.
Speaker 1: It's funny, but it's chafing. Sure, maybe it shouldn't have
Speaker 1: been And that was how it was supposed to end.
Speaker 1: Did you hear that it was supposed to end with
Speaker 1: Jimmy sitting next to Matt Damon, I assume saying something
Speaker 1: like ha ha you lost. Yeah, exactly, But nope, he
Speaker 1: had to be on stage fumbling with the rest of them. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't love the show. I did like
Speaker 1: the open with Justin Timberlake. Some people were saying, this
Speaker 1: isn't the Grammys. It's like whatever, I hate Twitter when
Speaker 1: when the Oscars is going on, I hate I love
Speaker 1: and hate it because there's some funny stuff out there.
Speaker 1: You get to see a lot of ID at that time.
Speaker 1: But I you know, I love that song. Um so
Speaker 1: what you were singing it earlier before we turn on
Speaker 1: the microphones. When I sing that song to my son,
Speaker 1: he smiles so big. So how could I not like
Speaker 1: that song? And I thought it was great coming through
Speaker 1: the crowd and everything. You know it was were you? Um?
Speaker 1: You went to the Independent Spirit Awards, right. Um, I
Speaker 1: watched from home, which seems to be my new malu.
Speaker 1: Uh and um. I thought it was a very risky
Speaker 1: but absolutely hilarious bit where Andy Sandberg did the like
Speaker 1: that you didn't see. I wondered how it layed in
Speaker 1: the room because he came out as Eddie Veteran saying
Speaker 1: I'm still alive. Instead of an in memorium segment, they
Speaker 1: showed people who were still alive and I want, I
Speaker 1: mean like, it was very risky and I wondered how
Speaker 1: it played in the room. I thought it was hilariously
Speaker 1: how it played because at the same time that news
Speaker 1: was breaking about Greg P. Russell having his sound nomination. Uh,
Speaker 1: the Academy embarrassing a thirty year guy publicly when they
Speaker 1: could have dealt with this quietly, and embarrassing him for what.
Speaker 1: On top of which, embarrassing him for something that everyone does, like,
Speaker 1: I hope they don't stop with that. They they better
Speaker 1: go rescind every Mirriamac's Best Picture nomination. Uh. It's that
Speaker 1: was utter bullshit and uh. And then compounded with the academies,
Speaker 1: you know, with the screw up at the Oscars and
Speaker 1: not a great year even though they've you know, diversity
Speaker 1: stuff was was nice. Uh, the Academy has had a
Speaker 1: rough year. Yeah, and they have some changes to make.
Speaker 1: I think I hope they make them. So will you'll
Speaker 1: be running for Academy president to say it's your platform
Speaker 1: to announce that. Nope, Christmas Patrick should run. I don't
Speaker 1: know who that is. If you understood that reference, you
Speaker 1: know why that's awesome. I'm going to have to do
Speaker 1: it now. Are you going to tell us saying that
Speaker 1: to the to the audience, it's it's the SNL sketch
Speaker 1: that uh, what's his name Kyle Mooney does where he's
Speaker 1: running for class president and it's like one of my
Speaker 1: favorite sketches on Saturday Night Left. And I'm so tired
Speaker 1: that I'm just rambling at this point. This is the
Speaker 1: last show of season one of But you have what
Speaker 1: I think should be an OSCAR nominated movie on the
Speaker 1: show this week. I do Who is it? James Mannold
Speaker 1: from Logan? I wanted to talk about Logan. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I loved Logan so much. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I can say it's the best X
Speaker 1: Men movie because it's so different. I would, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a Western, but it is. It's a straight up Western.
Speaker 1: I am not kidding. I am being completely serious when
Speaker 1: I say Patrick Stewart should be up for Oscar consideration.
Speaker 1: He's so fantastic and Logan, Um, yeah, it's kids, but
Speaker 1: hard are I'm letting the listeners just despite you. I'm
Speaker 1: going to have children and taking them Logan this week.
Speaker 1: I did suggest at the beginning of this podcast way
Speaker 1: back in September that everyone take their kids to Sausage Party.
Speaker 1: Maybe I should close by saying take kids of Logan.
Speaker 1: It's it's the blood Fest. And we have some we
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding. We have movies that I think
Speaker 1: will be in the Oscar Conversation next year. Coming up
Speaker 1: this month, we have Logan. We have Beauty in the
Speaker 1: East in two weeks. Um. Yeah, so look we're already
Speaker 1: back start making them. But yeah, I think this has
Speaker 1: been a great run of shows here. So thanks for
Speaker 1: being here with me weekend and week out. And yes,
Speaker 1: stay tuned for James Mangold right after this m who
Speaker 1: got ourselves an next Minute fan? Maybe a quarter of
Speaker 1: it happened. I'm not let this in the real world,
Speaker 1: people die, Logan. I don't want to talk about it. Logan,
Speaker 1: just stop, be careful. I need the girl. What girl
Speaker 1: go get h No? No no? And where do She's
Speaker 1: like you, very much like you. Where I am not
Speaker 1: whatever it is you think I am. She needs our help.
Speaker 1: I want to come off. Someone has come along. This
Speaker 1: is what life looks like. People love each other at home.
Speaker 1: You should take a moment feel it. Welcome back everyone,
Speaker 1: I'm here with the director of Logan, James Mangold. Thanks
Speaker 1: for doing the show man. I really appreciate it's good
Speaker 1: to be here. I'm glad we could make it happen. Um,
Speaker 1: we're just talking about all the travel you've been doing
Speaker 1: for this movie. Yeah, we've done the kind of whirlwind.
Speaker 1: Um of well, I was in Germany for the for
Speaker 1: the Berlin Film Festival where we kind of had our premiere,
Speaker 1: then went to London, um, and then did two stints
Speaker 1: in New York before and after London, and now I'm
Speaker 1: back in here. You doing this, Yeah, it's it's one
Speaker 1: of those movies we all everywhere for it. We only
Speaker 1: finished We only finished the movie about two and a
Speaker 1: half weeks ago, so it's kind of that's more of
Speaker 1: the feeling of Whirlwood that must have been the day
Speaker 1: before I saw it practically, which, by the way, the
Speaker 1: movie is awesome and a word thank you, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna talk about it in a minute. But
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, I feel like I'd be remiss
Speaker 1: if I didn't ask you about what every one's thinking
Speaker 1: about this week. Did you watch the oscars Um? I did?
Speaker 1: I did? Wow? Right, Wow, I guess wow. I mean
Speaker 1: it's wow. But the thing for me, that's odds. I
Speaker 1: was already at that point in the evening starting to
Speaker 1: kind of tune out. But the partly just for me,
Speaker 1: because however sacrosanct uh it is for me. The I
Speaker 1: don't really care who wins um. The it's the every
Speaker 1: one of those movies is brilliant um in its own way.
Speaker 1: And the you know, whenever anyone says me, name your
Speaker 1: five favorite Westerns, I like freeze. Whenever it says, name
Speaker 1: the best three movies you saw this year, I freeze,
Speaker 1: meaning I the kind of the reality show of picking
Speaker 1: the best and having a discussion with someone like why
Speaker 1: Moonlight or Lalla Land is better than one is better
Speaker 1: than the other seems ludicrous on his face, even yes,
Speaker 1: certainly too like so that so literally I got to
Speaker 1: see I got to see both wonderful realities played out.
Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like that, but it is I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously it's more of a train wreck in the sense
Speaker 1: of stage managing, but the uh um, but in a
Speaker 1: way I see more pain for all the people who
Speaker 1: are made mistakes and had it happen than anything delicious
Speaker 1: to talk about. It kind of seems more like just
Speaker 1: like what a nightmare. Well luckily too, I mean, we've
Speaker 1: got both of those directors on our cover this week,
Speaker 1: and they're friends. They love each other, The two camps
Speaker 1: love each other, and it's it was an interesting moment
Speaker 1: and kind of a lovely moment in the weird way,
Speaker 1: so because they were both on that stage and everybody's hugging.
Speaker 1: So anyway, it was and nasty is good, you know,
Speaker 1: um in in the world of what I do? You know?
Speaker 1: You you you hope something gets a sloppy and revealing
Speaker 1: as as a moment like that. Yeah, well, this movie, logan,
Speaker 1: it's a hard are hard our rating, obviously viciously violent,
Speaker 1: lots of colorful language, which as I'm watching it, I'm wondering, Okay,
Speaker 1: how did he defend these decisions to the studio because
Speaker 1: this is a big guy p character for them, even
Speaker 1: right down to the title. I mean, it's it doesn't
Speaker 1: have Wolverine in the title, it's Logan. You've got like
Speaker 1: three or four good questions in those senses. UM. The
Speaker 1: first thing I'd say is that I never had to
Speaker 1: defend the decision to go are that much? UM. Hugh
Speaker 1: and I were pretty definitive and a pact we made
Speaker 1: with each other about wanting the tone to change and
Speaker 1: wanting to do something different, um, if only for selfish reasons. UM.
Speaker 1: In my case, UM, I Hugh very much wanted to
Speaker 1: give fans what they have been waiting for in terms
Speaker 1: of UM physical UM, the display of the Berserker rage
Speaker 1: in all its bloody glory. UM. My interest in the
Speaker 1: R rating, though, was much bigger than just salty language
Speaker 1: and violence, both of which I thought would be really
Speaker 1: helpful to take the movie to a new place. But
Speaker 1: it was also something else, which is that, UM, if
Speaker 1: you can get a studio to agree to an R
Speaker 1: rating in advance of a movie's release, particularly a tent
Speaker 1: polepture like this. UM. There's a couple of things that
Speaker 1: happened the obvious being the freedom to do, um, things
Speaker 1: that you couldn't do in a PG PG film. But
Speaker 1: there's another thing that happens, which is that the marketing
Speaker 1: and distribution wings of the studio have to come to
Speaker 1: terms with the fact that the movie is not going
Speaker 1: to be marketed to children, and of course can't be
Speaker 1: and um because it's not four children. And the second
Speaker 1: that idea, that concept is swallowed by the studio, you
Speaker 1: go from being a four box movie to essentially, I guess,
Speaker 1: the two box movie. And what does that do to
Speaker 1: you as a screenwriter. Um. I wrote the story for
Speaker 1: this movie and co wrote the script with Scott Frank
Speaker 1: and Michael Green, and suddenly we're writing We're no longer
Speaker 1: having to worry, you know. One of the first scenes
Speaker 1: I wrote early on was the first scene between Patrick
Speaker 1: Stewart and and you, Jackman, UM when you when we
Speaker 1: first meet Patrick, UM in a kind of startling new condition,
Speaker 1: UM living inside this tipped water tower and then Mexican
Speaker 1: desert and UM, it's a six to seven page scene. Um,
Speaker 1: you can't write a movie that is for eleven year
Speaker 1: olds with a six to seven page emotional dialogue scene
Speaker 1: between two middle aged or Twilight aged men and the
Speaker 1: um the freedom to make a movie for grown ups
Speaker 1: without worrying about the films a platform for merchandising tie
Speaker 1: ins or happy meals, or or the short or having
Speaker 1: to resort to kind of or deal with the short
Speaker 1: attention span, theater tempo of cutting, or making sure the
Speaker 1: ideas are digestible by children. For children, UM, it's a
Speaker 1: that's a more wholesale change UM and in a way
Speaker 1: helped as an antidote or kind of um to the violence,
Speaker 1: meaning that instead of the violence feeling sophomoric, I hoped
Speaker 1: that it would actually feel um unfiltered. UM. Just a
Speaker 1: kind of vision. Uh, it's not a numbing violence. It's
Speaker 1: like you feel the repercussions of what's going on. Well,
Speaker 1: that was the important thing to me. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to do. You know, when people talk about the movie
Speaker 1: and we'll refer to it and kind of talk about
Speaker 1: the brutal action, my only anxiety about it all in
Speaker 1: the film. And there was some care made to play
Speaker 1: both ends, meaning to play into the operatic nature of
Speaker 1: Wolverine's rage, but to also show something that you don't
Speaker 1: see even in PG films. I feel UM, which is
Speaker 1: that violence has consequences, and characters die. People you whether
Speaker 1: it's um supporting characters or your principal characters, people you've
Speaker 1: come to love, people you know, people who have lives,
Speaker 1: personalities and a soul die. I think that what's interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, is that in a lot of films that
Speaker 1: we even rate on a level that are supposedly appropriate
Speaker 1: for children, there's mass killings going on. It's just that
Speaker 1: they're a little less read and wet, and you don't
Speaker 1: get to know the people falling. It's just kind of
Speaker 1: shadow play of bodies tumbling and under rolling busses and
Speaker 1: crumbling buildings. But the the body count is probably high
Speaker 1: multiples of ours. And yet so the b interesting question
Speaker 1: for me always becomes what's more in a way traumatizing
Speaker 1: for our culture showing mass killings that have no effect,
Speaker 1: or showing mass killings that at least feel legitimately traumatizing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that idea of of the violence with the repercussions,
Speaker 1: I mean that's sort of crystallized as well in this
Speaker 1: dialogue you take from Shane that you use in the film. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's central to the entire story of this character,
Speaker 1: as well, UM, I mean for those who aren't X
Speaker 1: men fans. UM. One thing has been essentially true about
Speaker 1: Logan through his comic book history and movie history, which
Speaker 1: is that he's carrying a ton of shame on his
Speaker 1: back about dark needs he committed when he was younger
Speaker 1: and called weapon X in his incarnation as a kind
Speaker 1: of UM. When he was a gun slinger, he was, well,
Speaker 1: he was a drug drug pumped killer. UM. But yes,
Speaker 1: but in the metaphor of the Western he was he
Speaker 1: was a gun slinger and UM and UM and a
Speaker 1: lot of people were hurt, and they weren't all UM
Speaker 1: in it. They weren't all guilty in some way. It
Speaker 1: wasn't always the justified death, if you will. And the UM.
Speaker 1: I think that that's something that's been played with throughout
Speaker 1: UM as I said, comic book history with this character
Speaker 1: and in the movies. But the the idea for me
Speaker 1: of coming of this character, coming to terms um with
Speaker 1: his life UM in a final film seemed to me
Speaker 1: necessary to find some way to go deeper into his
Speaker 1: own odd um relationship with violence. When did this kind
Speaker 1: of conceit because it is it does have the DNA
Speaker 1: of a Western, When did that did you go into
Speaker 1: it with that concede in minor did it develop as
Speaker 1: you developed a project like some of something that comes
Speaker 1: along with just me? Meaning you know, my second film, Copland,
Speaker 1: which by all outward appearances is a kind of Sydney
Speaker 1: Lamett esque New Jersey, kind of Peyton Place cop movie. Uh,
Speaker 1: was very much structured, actually built on three Tennyuma. The
Speaker 1: idea of this kind of weakened mail in the center
Speaker 1: of this town of gun slingers, who has called upon
Speaker 1: to kind of find the reserves to stand up to
Speaker 1: this um gun slinging bunch of corruption around him. Um
Speaker 1: the That's all very much. Um was hugely Western influence.
Speaker 1: And in fact that movie ends in a giant gunfight,
Speaker 1: um the um, but a gunfight not like you'd see
Speaker 1: in Heat, but one more like one you'd see in
Speaker 1: hind And the Westerns had a powerful effect on me. Um.
Speaker 1: I couldn't completely explain why, but in I'm kind of
Speaker 1: a classicist, I mean I'm not. I I am from
Speaker 1: the same generation, Um that a host of really talented
Speaker 1: kind of postmodern directors have come from. Probably the leader
Speaker 1: of all of them would be Quentin And I'm a
Speaker 1: huge fan of his work, but I couldn't do anything
Speaker 1: like that, Like it's not the whole uh uh. There's
Speaker 1: something I'm always looking for, something very earnest. I miss,
Speaker 1: I miss amid all the really wonderful films made along
Speaker 1: the lines I was just describing. I miss movies that
Speaker 1: mean it, that have something to say, that have a
Speaker 1: kind of gravity to them, and are unashamed. It's in
Speaker 1: this kind of most sardonic of ages, it's almost gotten
Speaker 1: um uncool to actually represent a true feeling um that
Speaker 1: without quotes around it or or a snicker, and that
Speaker 1: that's something the Western for me embodies UM. And I've
Speaker 1: always offered kind of guidance on on um if for
Speaker 1: listeners who are hearing me describe, you know, Logan's backstory.
Speaker 1: It's kind of very logical if you think about movies
Speaker 1: like Shane or Unforgiven or Pale Rider or The Man
Speaker 1: of Shot, Liberty Valance. There's a lot of movies that
Speaker 1: in which the kind of bones lineage UM really lend
Speaker 1: themselves to considering UM, considering how you might be able
Speaker 1: to use some of those structures in a modern superhero movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it fits like a glove really, since we're actually on
Speaker 1: the the topic of the genre. I'll skip ahead a bit. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, obviously you did your own version of Three
Speaker 1: Tender Yuma, which is ten years ago, if you can
Speaker 1: believe it. Yeah, we had been Foster on the show
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. He's so incredible, he is, He's
Speaker 1: a monumental acting talent and a great guy. And indeed,
Speaker 1: and and uh, I was I gonna ask you about
Speaker 1: the Westerns. Let me flip my page, because, like I said,
Speaker 1: I'm jumping ahead. Oh well, yeah, just the climate of
Speaker 1: that genre in Hollywood. Uh. I was on the set
Speaker 1: of one a few months ago that Ben actually was shooting,
Speaker 1: and there were a couple going on, Christian and hostiles. Um.
Speaker 1: The just is there is there a sense that there's
Speaker 1: an interest in making Westerns in Hollywood? Or is it
Speaker 1: is it difficult to get them off the ground for
Speaker 1: any reason. I'm just I'm always curious those who have
Speaker 1: worked in the genre. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: raining assumptions. But but I think a lot of the
Speaker 1: assumptions have gone out the window in the last few years.
Speaker 1: Um or that um or, to put it differently, I
Speaker 1: think studios are not sure if any of the things
Speaker 1: they thought were true eight years ago are still true. UM.
Speaker 1: More than just a convulsion in our political scene happened
Speaker 1: last year, I think there was a convulsion on all
Speaker 1: levels of just what it is, UM, what it is
Speaker 1: movies need to be, what they need to become, whether
Speaker 1: the and I think it's a very logical one. Like
Speaker 1: if you look at movie history, there was a period
Speaker 1: not unlike this one where movies where television was suddenly king,
Speaker 1: and movies became all about spectacle and you came out
Speaker 1: to the theater to see giant size todd a o
Speaker 1: Cinerama Spectacle three D of course was born in this period,
Speaker 1: and movies were trying to justify the theater experience with
Speaker 1: with all these um immersive technologies UM and UM, and
Speaker 1: it produced a lot more big scale, very often a
Speaker 1: lot of mediocre productions UM than more intimate fair and
Speaker 1: dramatic fair, which seemed to be more thriving on the
Speaker 1: small screen. I think that in some ways we've entered
Speaker 1: another period where that's been true, where there's a lot
Speaker 1: of UH, it's also affected, but CG spectacles, comic book movies,
Speaker 1: other things have come to the fore in a way
Speaker 1: that we're in the fifties and sixties, but that it's
Speaker 1: it's gotten to where the mainstay of theatrical movies for
Speaker 1: the last period have been giant, giant movies that are
Speaker 1: a theatrical experience that either promised you three D or
Speaker 1: just a kind of big imax experience. Um. But something
Speaker 1: has happened along with that. I have no problem with that,
Speaker 1: but something's happened along with it. That is that the
Speaker 1: the calculation in the scripting and design of these movies
Speaker 1: has gotten a little repetitive, probably as it happened in
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties as well. And that that just
Speaker 1: as a creative person, and I don't think I'm alone
Speaker 1: in this. You're just looking for a way. And I
Speaker 1: think the studios are to to just shake things up
Speaker 1: because everyone feels, um that there's a certain amount of
Speaker 1: exhaustion setting in with these movies as they in the
Speaker 1: way they've been made, even some quite excellent, but just
Speaker 1: just we can't keep doing the same movie over again.
Speaker 1: I hope we get more in that genre, because you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it doesn't seem like it's on life supporting. Well.
Speaker 1: People are frightened of period, you know, people are frightened
Speaker 1: of period, and they're frightened that that um that that
Speaker 1: the public is gonna have a hard time figure out
Speaker 1: how to access into it. I think the beauty of
Speaker 1: the Western um, for those that do love it, is
Speaker 1: just simply is its simplicity. It's not the period. It
Speaker 1: isn't it isn't in this in the same way a
Speaker 1: period piece. Uh. It's really a kind of fantastical universe
Speaker 1: that's hardly historically accurate in most cases, and more a
Speaker 1: kind of fever dream of the American moment when the
Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution kind of swept across the country in the
Speaker 1: age of the outlaws and the wild lands and the
Speaker 1: homesteaders came to an end and the train connected the
Speaker 1: East and West coast. It's kind of a magical moment
Speaker 1: that really, in historical sense, only existed maybe five years,
Speaker 1: but has become the canvas for countless movies because I
Speaker 1: think it's so represents and contains the American dream and
Speaker 1: the you'r the yearning for freedom at the same time
Speaker 1: as our sense of being part of of something much larger. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know you said you freeze, But what's your favorite
Speaker 1: Western I'll tell you mine. I'll go first, Once upon
Speaker 1: a Time in the West. Yeah, well that's easy for
Speaker 1: me if you would having me say ten of them.
Speaker 1: But is that? But then there's the like really weird
Speaker 1: Claudia Cardinal, Jason Robarts cutaways where I'm like, my head
Speaker 1: just hit some play and I'm like so. But if
Speaker 1: you talk about the best last ten minutes in a
Speaker 1: in a Western, the that that gunfight between Charles Bronson
Speaker 1: and and Henry Fonda and Morricone's music and the flashback
Speaker 1: on the summation of all the time, that that that
Speaker 1: is a brilliant, brilliant um film. I mean, Shane to
Speaker 1: me remains a kind of touchstone because of its tremendous beauty, um,
Speaker 1: the sophistication of the acting, um, you know, the I mean,
Speaker 1: just think about this this movie where where Jean Arthur
Speaker 1: is is you know, the loyal life to Van Heflyn
Speaker 1: in this in their homesteaders plot of land. But when
Speaker 1: Shane arrives, you feel her, uh fall in love with Shane,
Speaker 1: and you feel Shane fall in love with her. They
Speaker 1: never touch each other, they hardly look at each other. Um.
Speaker 1: But what is always most interesting to me in that
Speaker 1: film is the beautiful work also Van Hethlen does where
Speaker 1: you feel his own awareness that he's lost his wife's
Speaker 1: admiration to this strange dark gunslinger who's sleeping in their
Speaker 1: barn and um, and yet instead of lashing out or
Speaker 1: berating her, his response is a kind of beautiful sense
Speaker 1: of understanding that he has been so compromised by the
Speaker 1: struggles they've gone through that he almost can't blame her
Speaker 1: for admiring the kind of idealistic and the strength and
Speaker 1: idealism of this hero who has entered their midst and Um.
Speaker 1: There's so many complicated themes, and of course the child
Speaker 1: um that beautiful performance, but of that child who is
Speaker 1: who falls in love also with a surrogate um father.
Speaker 1: In Shane, I use a lot of Yeah, Brandon to Wilde,
Speaker 1: I Um, I used a lot of that, a lot
Speaker 1: of those ideas. Even in three Tending Huma, I mean,
Speaker 1: Logan Lehman's character kind of falls more in love with
Speaker 1: Russell Crows and it's kind of completely disillusioned with with
Speaker 1: with Christian in many ways. My Three Tending Human is
Speaker 1: a bit of a kind of hybrid of Shane and
Speaker 1: and and three the original three ten great scenery up
Speaker 1: there to in the t tons obviously absolutely and and
Speaker 1: one of the first UH films where they hold those
Speaker 1: huge technicolor cameras out into the wild and you really
Speaker 1: feel it. Definitely UH. Going back to Logan and this
Speaker 1: character Wolverine, let's talk about that. The title was that
Speaker 1: something you had to defend? Was that a difficult thing?
Speaker 1: That interesting you're asking about that, Chris, because that was
Speaker 1: the biggest um negotiation of the entire picture, the the
Speaker 1: in some way or another. And I still pinched myself
Speaker 1: and can't quite believe we got the movie through without
Speaker 1: any struggle. But the rated are the script that we wrote,
Speaker 1: the kind of story of the tone. We had no
Speaker 1: issues when dailies were coming out, We had no concerned
Speaker 1: visits to the set. We had nothing but encouragement. Um.
Speaker 1: I think there was an opportunity for things to go
Speaker 1: awry when we, you know, showed the film to test audiences,
Speaker 1: because the question was gonna be does this alchemy of
Speaker 1: of kind of rated our violence and adult themes mary
Speaker 1: to an audience's expectations of a Wolverine movie. And the
Speaker 1: response was so enthusiastic from the audiences we screened it
Speaker 1: for that that hurdle was passed without a blip from
Speaker 1: either side getting nervous, but the title was something I
Speaker 1: had to push very hard. Um And ultimately Stacy made
Speaker 1: the call and and uh and backed me on the
Speaker 1: idea of separating us. However counterintuitive it was, yeah, Stacy
Speaker 1: Snyder chairman. However counterintuitive, counterintuitive it was two, actually divorce
Speaker 1: yourself from the known brand being Wolverine or X Men.
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, you know the first Wolverine movie couldn't
Speaker 1: let go of either brand. It was like Wolverine semi
Speaker 1: colon X Men. Yeah, it was. I mean it was
Speaker 1: literally as if I hate those kind of titles. The
Speaker 1: um and frankly, we were in a bit of a
Speaker 1: quandary because what do you call this? There was a
Speaker 1: movie called Wolverine Origins X Men whatever, and then there
Speaker 1: was The Wolverine, which is the last one I made,
Speaker 1: and then this one will will this beend? The Wolverine
Speaker 1: two or Wolverine three, or Wolverine three, the Happening or
Speaker 1: Wolverine three, the Great Ride? I mean, what would you
Speaker 1: every one of those things becomes these I mean they
Speaker 1: sound like some hermern Woke novel. I'm like I'm like, what,
Speaker 1: why do they have these ponderous eight word titles? And um,
Speaker 1: A lot of it has to do with this idea
Speaker 1: of holding the movies together, um, whether you call it
Speaker 1: a universe or it's the box set of DVDs to
Speaker 1: come out later, some kind of unifying, unifying branding that
Speaker 1: holds all the movies together, which, for whatever perverse reasons,
Speaker 1: I am extremely resistant to. I really don't want my
Speaker 1: movie held together, um with anything else, even my last movie.
Speaker 1: Meaning I just there's some kind of Again, it's my
Speaker 1: own puritanical way of looking at telling a story with
Speaker 1: a beginning, middle and an end. Is that that's my job.
Speaker 1: My job is not to make a platform for selling
Speaker 1: the next movie. My job is not to make a
Speaker 1: platform to connecting to other movies. My job is to
Speaker 1: tell a good story within the confines of the of
Speaker 1: the of the Fox logo and the end it and
Speaker 1: and um that you feel satisfied by hopefully. Yeah, Well
Speaker 1: it's perfect title. I mean it it grounds everything, and
Speaker 1: it's and it signals to what was most important. I
Speaker 1: think one the day with Stacy Snyder when she was
Speaker 1: considering what to do, was I think that what was
Speaker 1: most important to me was to get folks like yourself
Speaker 1: and of course the public ready for a different movie
Speaker 1: if we called it the same thing or kind of
Speaker 1: just added a new digit. After the Wolverine, I had
Speaker 1: a great fear that we would not be signaling with
Speaker 1: a sense of continuity and unanimity, what that we were
Speaker 1: making something different. We were doing something different um in
Speaker 1: tone and and and in who the audience who we
Speaker 1: were aiming at for audience with the Wolverine. Uh, did
Speaker 1: you feel like you made the movie you wanted to
Speaker 1: make there? And I only asked just because this movie
Speaker 1: is so different. It feels like you were doing stuff
Speaker 1: here that maybe you wish you could have done on
Speaker 1: the other movie, or something like that. I I can't
Speaker 1: I for for anything that anyone. I'm very fond of
Speaker 1: the last Wolverine movie I made, and I always viewed
Speaker 1: as a kind of fever dream of Japanese cinema and
Speaker 1: UM Samurai Pictures, Hong Kong crime pictures, UM. But I
Speaker 1: did feel like it got more clocke comic Bookie in
Speaker 1: the third act than what we did in the first
Speaker 1: two acts. And certainly this was a previous regime at Fox.
Speaker 1: They were more worried about my first two acts than
Speaker 1: the third. UM. But I think that I have to
Speaker 1: own what works or doesn't work for people in my movies.
Speaker 1: And I think that I, UM I too. It's it's
Speaker 1: very you know, it's it's very hard to do it
Speaker 1: different when when there are these all these default settings
Speaker 1: for a genre or an idea. UM, the idea of
Speaker 1: needing a really big UM CG spectacular in the third
Speaker 1: act is a very difficult pressure to resist. And it's
Speaker 1: not like it's coming from one person or they're demanding something.
Speaker 1: It's it's a kind of snap to grid where it's
Speaker 1: just like everyone's doing it. I guess this is what
Speaker 1: you gotta do. And UM. It wasn't until I had
Speaker 1: gotten the end of that process on that movie that
Speaker 1: I came to terms in my for my own self
Speaker 1: with what I loved most about the previous film and
Speaker 1: and it was actually the front end, the kind of
Speaker 1: the this kind of uh noir, Japanese noir with with
Speaker 1: Logan in it, and UM, and what I went about
Speaker 1: doing because I entered that movie midstream, meaning there was
Speaker 1: already a script by Chris mcquarie when I came on.
Speaker 1: And then Scott Frank and I worked on it and um,
Speaker 1: but the and and and all of it was based
Speaker 1: on a pre existing uh Wolverine narrative about his journey
Speaker 1: to Japan and falling in love with Marco and um
Speaker 1: facing these foes there. But for me with this movie,
Speaker 1: the difference was it was like me writing Copland or
Speaker 1: Girl Interrupted or Walk the Line or whatever it was.
Speaker 1: I started with a blank page, um when it and
Speaker 1: from absolute zero, I went about trying to construct a
Speaker 1: movie that, even if I was making just a movie
Speaker 1: on my own, about characters that were not marvel icons
Speaker 1: or superheroes. This was an interesting story to tell about
Speaker 1: a man caring for nailing father upon whose doorstep arrives
Speaker 1: a daughter he won't accept eternity for and someone's chasing
Speaker 1: her and forces them all out of their comfortable place
Speaker 1: and onto the road where they're fighting for their lives.
Speaker 1: And that that could easily be a movie that you'd
Speaker 1: make without clause or mutant powers at all, which in
Speaker 1: a sense to me is a better definition of how
Speaker 1: to find a story than the other way around, the
Speaker 1: building your story around around um their powers. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: about visual ideas? Because I love those first two acts
Speaker 1: of the Wolverine very much as well. And uh, and
Speaker 1: I also note some imagery from the Frank Miller stuff
Speaker 1: in there. It's really cool, especially in those arrows and
Speaker 1: stuff going into the third act. But with Logan, I'm
Speaker 1: not as a comic book reader as familiar with the
Speaker 1: newer stuff that has this young character and stuff and
Speaker 1: things like that. But I'm just curious if there were
Speaker 1: any graphic references reference points for you at all. And
Speaker 1: I think I kind of let go of that. I
Speaker 1: kind of gave myself a prescription to do something original.
Speaker 1: Um in all these things are in my head. I mean,
Speaker 1: the biggest influence i'd say visually in a general way
Speaker 1: was was old Man Logan and um, not from a
Speaker 1: story point of view, as much we didn't do that story.
Speaker 1: We couldn't from a character legal point of view that
Speaker 1: we didn't have writes a lot of the characters in
Speaker 1: that comic book, but from a vibe a look, um,
Speaker 1: that was a lot of what we did. Um. And
Speaker 1: it was a very big inspiration in terms of setting
Speaker 1: a tone. And I think as much as you could
Speaker 1: credit Deadpool and the changing marketplace and studios understanding that
Speaker 1: that the world is changing for these movies, and we
Speaker 1: have to keep changing with it. I think that old
Speaker 1: man logan provided a kind of legitimacy for reimagining the
Speaker 1: world of Wolverine in a very different environment in place.
Speaker 1: But I really tried in every way to uh when
Speaker 1: I say this that I felt like the best way
Speaker 1: I could serve the fans would be to ignore it
Speaker 1: all and just make my movie, meaning make a movie.
Speaker 1: The best I could make a film. Um, come what may,
Speaker 1: to tell a story about these characters in this world
Speaker 1: in the same way when you bring up Frank Miller,
Speaker 1: he did, meaning that that that um that the story
Speaker 1: of the evolution of comic books is not a story
Speaker 1: of universe building and continuity as much as it's a
Speaker 1: story of shattering changes being made every eight years or
Speaker 1: so in these in these different storylines, Superman doesn't look
Speaker 1: the same as he did in one and Batman doesn't
Speaker 1: look the same as when Bob Kane created him. And um,
Speaker 1: Neil Gaiman certainly did different things with the Sandman than
Speaker 1: what he was doing in the DC universe earlier. And
Speaker 1: I could go on and on, um that the quest
Speaker 1: for kind of unity and an unbroken style within a
Speaker 1: comic book movie series is more. I think about again
Speaker 1: that that perverse need to make a kind of box
Speaker 1: set or a never ending, unspliceable nine hour version of
Speaker 1: one of these sagas. And I think that's the enemy
Speaker 1: of good filmmaking in a way. I think that taking
Speaker 1: a director and saying, Okay, I want you to dream.
Speaker 1: But when you get in this bed and dream, don't
Speaker 1: move the pillows and don't touch the covers, and it's
Speaker 1: like okay. And so you sit very stiff and and
Speaker 1: intimidated in this bed, trying to do your best work,
Speaker 1: but knowing there's ninety things you can't do that you
Speaker 1: would do because someone's gonna get piste off at you.
Speaker 1: And UM, a little bit, when you asked me about
Speaker 1: the last movie, UM, I dipped my toe in the world.
Speaker 1: You know, it was a trauma. Just to get his
Speaker 1: hair approved different than the Flock of Seagull's look. That
Speaker 1: was a monumental amount of negotiation. And UM, I fought
Speaker 1: as many battles as I could. But but UM, with
Speaker 1: this movie, I tried to kind of get the battles
Speaker 1: result before we even started. I'm running out of time
Speaker 1: with you, but I did want to mention Night and
Speaker 1: Day got a raw deal. That movie is awesome. I
Speaker 1: think it's awesome. I think Tom is incredible. It's everything
Speaker 1: that he's so great at, all of his charisma, all
Speaker 1: of his timing. I think I think two things happened
Speaker 1: in the movie. One is it was called Wichita, and
Speaker 1: we wrote it and we shot it calling Wichita, and
Speaker 1: God loved Tom Rothman, but he became convinced that, uh that,
Speaker 1: as did Jim g that that that the name Wichita
Speaker 1: in Asia would be they won't know what it means.
Speaker 1: It's bill call it wi Chita and uh, and we're like,
Speaker 1: it's just a cool title and um, and it was
Speaker 1: about where the story began and then went around the
Speaker 1: world from there. But but the story about it is,
Speaker 1: of course that they then came up with some market
Speaker 1: tested title Night and Day, which sounded like just the
Speaker 1: worst eighties comedy title ever attached to a film, and
Speaker 1: um and of course Night and Day means nothing in
Speaker 1: most of Europe and Asia as well, because the pun
Speaker 1: with the k in the end means nothing in another language.
Speaker 1: So the whole argument was, Uh, all I can say
Speaker 1: is you live and you learn. But when you bring
Speaker 1: up when I bring up the title. It's amazing, Like
Speaker 1: when I was talking about Logan and the rating and
Speaker 1: how it frees you to make an adult film. When
Speaker 1: you title a movie with a stupid title, it signals something.
Speaker 1: It activates the press who looks at it like a
Speaker 1: kind of trivial film. It activates the The artwork and
Speaker 1: the marketing and the trailer cutting all build around this
Speaker 1: kind of more simpleton version of the movie. And in
Speaker 1: many ways Night and Day Wichitas I like to call
Speaker 1: it never recovered from the kind of effort to make
Speaker 1: it UM a kind of very silly caper comedy as
Speaker 1: opposed to a real tribute to movies like Charade, and
Speaker 1: an effort to make a kind of UM a pretty
Speaker 1: satirical look at the espionage, romance and violence around the
Speaker 1: world in these days. And and also Tom Cruise taking
Speaker 1: a pretty brave um poke at his own persona UM
Speaker 1: and particularly in the midst of the moment we were
Speaker 1: making that movie, I thought he was really brave in
Speaker 1: in playing a part um about kind of the ultimate
Speaker 1: can do guy, so can do that he kind of
Speaker 1: makes you want to run UM and UM. I felt
Speaker 1: like that went marketing and framing on that movie went
Speaker 1: a long way to getting people turned off before they
Speaker 1: even watched it. And then finally last thing here, Uhary
Speaker 1: of Copland this year earlier. I look at that and
Speaker 1: I see such an amazing cast and a great story
Speaker 1: from a writer director. But I wonder how intimidated were
Speaker 1: you buy that cast and in making that movie at
Speaker 1: that stage in your career. I have to you know,
Speaker 1: it's one of the really great stories of my career
Speaker 1: on a on a friendship level, was the protectiveness of
Speaker 1: Robert de Niro on that movie for being um he
Speaker 1: worked the first month of that movie and then went
Speaker 1: on to do a different show. And um there, to
Speaker 1: a man, there wasn't another cast member ray Leota, Harvey Kitell,
Speaker 1: sly Pete Burgh. God, there's so many people in that movie,
Speaker 1: but the um there wasn't one of them who didn't
Speaker 1: deeply respect Bob. And Bob was a neighbor of mine
Speaker 1: downtown New York at that time, and the second son
Speaker 1: in the movie. He made it this thing of getting
Speaker 1: together every week and doing some research or sitting and
Speaker 1: having ginger tea and talking about the script and um,
Speaker 1: and he really befriended me. He kind of UM. And
Speaker 1: he said this thing to me early on at one
Speaker 1: of those get togethers, which is like, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't usually work with young directors. And he goes, I
Speaker 1: just don't want you in awe of me. Tell me
Speaker 1: what you want. Always tell me what you want. And
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, and he said, even in the
Speaker 1: middle of when I'm acting, even better, don't say cut,
Speaker 1: just tell me what you want while we're rolling. And
Speaker 1: it was one of the most freeing things because in
Speaker 1: the first week of shooting, here's Bob and he's doing
Speaker 1: some scene at you know, the i A headquarters in
Speaker 1: New York, and in the middle of the take, I'm like,
Speaker 1: come with that again, come around and like stallonea leon
Speaker 1: and all these other guys are looking at like you
Speaker 1: just cut off Bob de Nero and are telling them
Speaker 1: what to do and and Bob comes twice with twice
Speaker 1: as much energy into the scene and and he said
Speaker 1: a tone, UM, don't funk with this kid, And UM,
Speaker 1: in many ways, I'll be eternally grateful to him UM
Speaker 1: for that, because I think UM, to a man, they
Speaker 1: all were really collaborative and lovely with me. UM. I
Speaker 1: think I was. So it was a lot to handle
Speaker 1: um as a second picture when your first movie was
Speaker 1: was shot for two hundred fifty thousand dollars and all
Speaker 1: took place in a little diner. But but I look
Speaker 1: back with huge and fond memories about being surrounded with
Speaker 1: that kind of talent and um and hearing my words
Speaker 1: brought to life by those guys. It was incredible. And
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about walk the line, but Man in
Speaker 1: Black would have been this past weekend. Yeah, he just
Speaker 1: would have turned. And you know, I thought about Johnny
Speaker 1: Cash a lot as I've been working on this movie.
Speaker 1: You know, A we used UM, we're using a song
Speaker 1: of his to close our picture, and we used another
Speaker 1: song of his UM in the marketing campaign for Logan.
Speaker 1: But it's not it's not only that it works. I
Speaker 1: think it had in both cases in use UM, but
Speaker 1: that there's there's uh. You know, My work is very disparate.
Speaker 1: You know, I've moved from genre to genre, but a
Speaker 1: lot of things, if you look beneath the easy surface
Speaker 1: of genre, stay very constant for me. And for instance,
Speaker 1: Johnny Cash and Logan are brothers. Um. There is UH
Speaker 1: for me, UM A deep understanding in john and always
Speaker 1: was of feeling the outsider, UM, feeling ashamed of his past,
Speaker 1: carrying a kind of shadow through life, UM, and trying
Speaker 1: to understand how he could use his own darkness in
Speaker 1: positive ways. UM. Well, and our interview if you want,
Speaker 1: with a story that John told me of a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks before he died, which was really moved me,
Speaker 1: and UM relates to Logan in a big way, which
Speaker 1: is that I after June Carter died, I continued speaking
Speaker 1: to John um Um Saturday mornings via phone. And UH,
Speaker 1: part of it was some of his family suggested it
Speaker 1: was good for him just to keep talking about the movie,
Speaker 1: because you know, he was grieving for the loss of
Speaker 1: his lifelong partner and it was a stunning death. And
Speaker 1: so we would talk on Saturdays. And I had really
Speaker 1: gotten all I needed for the script at this point.
Speaker 1: But there was one day I was just shooting the
Speaker 1: ship with him and I started asking him about his
Speaker 1: favorite movies and he and he says, you know, my
Speaker 1: favorite movie was Frankenstein, and I go, really when you
Speaker 1: see it? And he was like, when I was nine,
Speaker 1: I saw it at the you know, the dis cinema.
Speaker 1: There was little theater and Dias Mississippi, and he went
Speaker 1: and saw the movie and he said it was stunning
Speaker 1: to me because I looked around and all the other
Speaker 1: kids and all the other grown ups in the theater
Speaker 1: were like terrified of this monster. But I felt like
Speaker 1: I identified with him. And he said, you know, I
Speaker 1: was nine years old, but I felt like I was
Speaker 1: made up of all these bad parts soon together. And
Speaker 1: you know, I remember him telling you that story and
Speaker 1: being really moved and thinking about what that must feel like.
Speaker 1: And but I remembered it recently because I think that
Speaker 1: cuts to the core of who Logan is. That he's
Speaker 1: been um, that he walks through life carrying this ton
Speaker 1: of shame and um, this feeling that he's not for
Speaker 1: this earth and not good enough to deserve love or family,
Speaker 1: and yet we know different as we watch him. UM,
Speaker 1: And I think that, uh, that's something I really tried
Speaker 1: to bring to this. And I think Hugh knocks out
Speaker 1: of the park well Wolf. The movie is called The
Speaker 1: Wolverine three Electric Boogaloo the movie. Go see Logan tomorrow.
Speaker 1: It opens everywhere. It's amazing. And James, thanks again for
Speaker 1: coming on the show. My pleasure, Chris, always interesting. Thank
Speaker 1: thank you. Thanks for listening everyone. Remember to subscribe to
Speaker 1: play back and check back for season two and a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks you've been listening to playback at Variety,
Speaker 1: Boo Fire,