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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought

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Speaker 1: to you absolutely free. But if you want ad free

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Speaker 1: listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus

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Speaker 1: dot com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's Mike here. Where's

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Speaker 2: pain right? Well, right now, He's super busy with the

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Speaker 2: new season of Up and Finish and I'm working from

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Speaker 2: home today getting over this cold. So I might sound

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Speaker 2: a little off, but either way, we have a very

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Speaker 2: exciting interview today. Our guest is a former music executive

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Speaker 2: turned podcaster. He was CEO of Atlantic Virgin Records, Capital

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Speaker 2: Music Group and even had his own label. He signed

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Speaker 2: some huge artists like skid Row, Katy Perry Lord in

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Speaker 2: Matchbox twenty, just to name a few. Now he has

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Speaker 2: a whole network of shows and hosts an incredible Webby

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Speaker 2: Award winning podcast called Wrongful Conviction. His name is Jason Flahm,

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Speaker 2: and it was an absolute blast meeting him in New

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Speaker 2: York City. His whole story about how he got into

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Speaker 2: justice reform is actually just fascinating. I really don't have

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Speaker 2: anything else to say, so let's go ahead and play

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Speaker 2: the theme song.

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Speaker 1: Now that I know that you're an ex music mogul,

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Speaker 1: which I did not know. It's pretty, it's got a badass.

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Speaker 3: Let's be real, what time period did you work in

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Speaker 3: in the music industry. It's kind of an amazing journey

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Speaker 3: that I had. You know, I often say my story

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Speaker 3: is really the story of my life, is my journey

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Speaker 3: from being to I want to be Jimmy Hendrix, the

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Speaker 3: chairman and CEO of three of the biggest record companies

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Speaker 3: in the world, but more importantly, from being a drug

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Speaker 3: addicted college dropout to a pioneer in criminal justice reform.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I do a lot of public speaking,

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Speaker 3: and that's how I almost always start I speak for

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Speaker 3: that because it's kind of like, huh, you know, like wait,

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Speaker 3: that was a big thing. Yeah, But my my music

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Speaker 3: business journey. Sorry. When I was eighteen years old, I

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Speaker 3: failed at being a rock star and then decided, through

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Speaker 3: you know, lucky break and serendipity and a lot of

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Speaker 3: other things, I found out that I might be able

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Speaker 3: to have an opportunity to create helping other people become

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Speaker 3: rock stars, I feel too, and so many of us did.

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Speaker 3: Here we are and then live vicariously through them. So

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Speaker 3: that was my Uh, that was my plan from the

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Speaker 3: time I started at Atlantic Records as an eighteen year

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Speaker 3: old kid and they gave me a staple gun and some

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Speaker 3: double sided tape and a bunch of led Zeppelin posters

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Speaker 3: and you know, sent me out at the record stores

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Speaker 3: to go put these posters up. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: this is the greatest job ever.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this was the end the day where

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Speaker 1: there was big money in that space where those crazy

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Speaker 1: record deals, because they were there was bands and artists

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Speaker 1: doing millions of CD sales, right, I mean casually.

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Speaker 3: Dude, it was yeah. I mean, if you could fart

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Speaker 3: and tune back, then could more or less you know,

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Speaker 3: have a I mean it was we didn't know how

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Speaker 3: good we had it, right, but it was. It was

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Speaker 3: an awesome time there was you know, look, it was

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Speaker 3: also a time when you know, the level of creativity,

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Speaker 3: especially in rock and roll, was so extraordinary and uh

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Speaker 3: and I grew up on rock and roll, so I

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Speaker 3: mean I loved, you know, the iconic rock bands of

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Speaker 3: the of the seventies was what I grew up on

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Speaker 3: and so top three, top three for me growing up. Wow,

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Speaker 3: if I only had to pick three, it would be Zeppelin, Aerosmith,

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Speaker 3: and I'm talking about early Aerosmith. So people looking at

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Speaker 3: the Going Way, aren't they like, no, no, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about Get Your Wings, you know, Toys in the

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Speaker 3: Attic Rocks, the first album that was That was the serious,

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Speaker 3: serious stuff. That's what's inspired you know, Guns and Roses

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Speaker 3: to start their band. Slash talks about that in the book.

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Speaker 3: But and if I had to pick a third, I mean,

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Speaker 3: the first one that comes to mind is Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mean different but yeah, he You know,

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Speaker 3: I used to sit in school board and transcribe his

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Speaker 3: lyrics and just sit there and off, like what the

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Speaker 3: fuck inscribe them just but then hearing it and writing

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Speaker 3: it down just just like write out like poetry, Like there,

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Speaker 3: you know it's poetry. His lyrics are poetry. But then

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean or what yeah, well that was

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Speaker 3: before Liner knows how I used to listen to music

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Speaker 3: back then. Lines were really a thing back then, and

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Speaker 3: there was no like okay, now you can look up

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Speaker 3: anything on rap genius.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's like so accessible. It doesn't really make sense.

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Speaker 3: But no, I just memorize them and write them out.

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Speaker 3: But then, of course that was Queen, you know, and

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Speaker 3: that was also one of my north stars. So I

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Speaker 3: mean I gave you four instead of three.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I mean I'm glad you threw Queen in there, though.

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Speaker 1: That's the Yeah, three is impossible.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, dude, my dog's name is Freddy Mercury. Like,

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Speaker 3: let's get here, that's your actual dog's name. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's like the Freddy Murky both names is Reddy Mercury. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 3: because he's because he's a rock star and he's always

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Speaker 3: looking for somebody to love, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: So it's like it makes kind of perfect sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm a dog lover, an animal lover, and you know,

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Speaker 3: other than working on justice stuff, you know, animal stuff

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Speaker 3: is my other sort of philanthropic you know, lean whatever

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Speaker 3: you want to call it or cause you know, there's

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Speaker 3: there's others, but those are my yeah, and so saving

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Speaker 3: the rhinos in particular. But but dogs are just everything

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Speaker 3: to me. And I can say that I love every

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Speaker 3: dog I've ever had, but I've never had a connection

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Speaker 3: with an animal like the one I have with Freddie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, and this is you know, this

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Speaker 3: is this is a true story. It's gonna sound too

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Speaker 3: good to be true. But and you may have even

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Speaker 3: seen this because it went viral. But Freddie was on

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Speaker 3: the beach about three months ago with my girlfriend and

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Speaker 3: I was actually, it's gonna sound boogie. But I was

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Speaker 3: on the golf course and she texts me and she says,

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Speaker 3: there's only one of the person at the beach with

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Speaker 3: us today, and it's one of our guy who lives

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Speaker 3: in our neighborhood who we know with his dog. And

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Speaker 3: he was stumbling around like he was disoriented, and then

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Speaker 3: he collapsed and he's out cold, and she goes, I called,

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Speaker 3: you know, the ambulance were waiting for him now. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: please keep me posted. Like what can I say? I'm

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Speaker 3: not there, you know what I mean, I'm not a

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Speaker 3: doctor anyway, I don't know what to do, right. Freddy

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Speaker 3: goes and sticks himself under this guy's legs. His name's David,

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Speaker 3: sticks him under David's legs, sticks some self on, positions

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Speaker 3: himself they're holding his legs in the air, and just

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Speaker 3: sits there like a sphinx with his little tennis ball

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Speaker 3: in front of him that he was playing with before

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Speaker 3: this happened, and waits for the ambulance. Ambulance drives onto

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Speaker 3: the beach. The e MS guys get out and they

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Speaker 3: said to her is he friendly? And she's like yeah,

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Speaker 3: and they go good, because he's doing exactly what we

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Speaker 3: need him to be doing, which is holding this guy's

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Speaker 3: legs in the air because he's in diabetic shock. And

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Speaker 3: you have to keep I didn't know this and she

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Speaker 3: didn't even know this, and she's got training as a nurse,

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Speaker 3: but you have to keep somebody's legs elevated apparently our

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Speaker 3: body part to keep the blood flow going when they

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Speaker 3: go into this diabetic shock.

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Speaker 1: So how did your dog know that?

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Speaker 3: We don't know. He sat there, He sat there stone

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Speaker 3: still the entire time as they were, you know, resuscitating him.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I found out later that he was

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Speaker 3: not you know, he was not far away from going

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Speaker 3: into a coma.

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Speaker 1: So your dog saved this guy's life.

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Speaker 3: With yeah, I mean with help obviously, but we don't

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Speaker 3: we have no We know that dogs can be trained

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Speaker 3: to detect COVID, to detect cancers and Teles. We know

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Speaker 3: the dogs have incredible abilities to help, but usually they

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Speaker 3: have to be trained to do so. In this case,

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Speaker 3: he just instinctually knew exactly what to do and he

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Speaker 3: just went and did it without anybody asking. He was

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Speaker 3: off leash.

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Speaker 1: By the way, what do you make of that? Then?

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Speaker 3: You know it makes you think we don't deserve dogs.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you that, right, Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 3: you know, what can you say? I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: incredible and I put it on my Instagram. My Instagram

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Speaker 3: by the way, is it's Jason flamm If you want

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Speaker 3: to follow me, is it s Jason Father? There was

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Speaker 3: another Jason Wlamber got there before me. He's a school

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Speaker 3: teacher in Tallahassee. You follow him to one. But so, yeah,

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Speaker 3: no dogs are you know? What was it? The founder

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Speaker 3: of Kinko's. I've heard a quote attributed to him where

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Speaker 3: he said, my dog could do my job because he

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Speaker 3: has the only two qualities that matter. He's enthusiastic and loyal,

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Speaker 3: and I was always stuck with him.

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Speaker 1: That's a true statement, But.

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Speaker 3: It's so much more than that. I mean, they're just

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Speaker 3: you know, and he's super friendly, you know, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like, I'm an underdog person in sports. I always

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Speaker 3: root for the underdog everything, I root for the other

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Speaker 3: dog life, right, that's it that informs my work injustice?

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Speaker 1: Why is that?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean I just grew up that way.

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Speaker 1: As a kid. You thought that too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I hate bullying, you know, I hate fucking bullying

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Speaker 3: and I hate injustice.

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Speaker 1: Were you ever bullied?

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Speaker 3: I was probably bullied, you know, less than a lot

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Speaker 3: of other kids. My brother was bullied very badly. Okay,

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Speaker 3: that definitely left a really it was a really tough

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Speaker 3: thing from my child that just remembering that and being

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Speaker 3: powerless to do anything about it. Is he an older

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Speaker 3: brother or because a year and a half older, but he's

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Speaker 3: he's a younger brother. Who Yeah, I was a younger

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Speaker 3: brother who went to different schools and even in camp,

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Speaker 3: you know, like it was just it was bad. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he looks very different. He's you know, he had all

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Speaker 3: sorts of problems he's related to, you know. I think

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Speaker 3: he was born very prematurely, and so he had very

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Speaker 3: poor coordination, physical issues and of course kids, you know,

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Speaker 3: they pick on kids people. Yeah, and so and I

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Speaker 3: really wasn't I didn't know where I was coming from

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Speaker 3: or who was doing it. I knew I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what to do about it, and U but I hated

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Speaker 3: it and I hate it whenever I see it in

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Speaker 3: any anywhere, whether it's animals, people, the justice system. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just it. And if I'm in a position, I

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Speaker 3: think for all of us, if we're in a position

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Speaker 3: to do something about it, you should do something about it. Right.

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Speaker 3: I found I found, you know, for me, I found

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Speaker 3: a way to make an impact. And it's been you know,

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Speaker 3: it's been my life's work for the last like thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So you wanted to be a rock star and then

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Speaker 1: you said that you became a college dropout, a drug

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Speaker 1: addicted college dropout. Okay, what happened?

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Speaker 3: You said it like I've aspired to it.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a drug a college drop me

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Speaker 1: a rock star. Right, No, that wasn't the rock star.

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Speaker 1: Life just gets you to too soon or what happened?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a rebellious kid. I had nothing really

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Speaker 3: to rebel against. I came from you know, wonderful parents

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Speaker 3: and you know, but I.

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Speaker 1: Was maybe rebelling against that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I mean that. You know, we're

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Speaker 3: all when we're kids. I mean, look, I think I smoked.

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Speaker 3: You know, I smoked as much weed. I was like

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Speaker 3: a I mean it was like a Jewish Rastafarian, Like

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Speaker 3: it's ridiculous, you know what I mean, not in a

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Speaker 3: religious way.

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Speaker 1: I just smoked all all your friends know that you

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Speaker 1: had the weed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was selling you. And I mean I

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Speaker 3: had hair. I had so much hair that you couldn't

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Speaker 3: see my face. It covered my entire head. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how I smoked through it, but I did. And

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Speaker 3: the fact is in the summer I got really frizzy.

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Speaker 3: So the fact is I never really ran out of

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Speaker 3: weed because you know, I mean, I was selling it

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Speaker 3: so which was really dumb. But you know, I recognize

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Speaker 3: that if not for the color of my skin and

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Speaker 3: the zip code I grew up in, I absolutely would

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Speaker 3: have gone to jail.

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Speaker 1: When did you first realize that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I really it really hit

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Speaker 3: me when when I had my moment. Right. For many

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Speaker 3: people who are listening, they've had a moment, right, I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you've had your moments that that informed you just

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Speaker 3: sort of turn your life on a dime and feels

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Speaker 3: like right. And for me, that moment came in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety three, so thirty years ago. As we're sitting here.

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Speaker 3: It was the most random thing. I happened to pick

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Speaker 3: up the New York Post, which I never read. No

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Speaker 3: one should read it. I still don't read it.

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Speaker 1: Still read it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's like it's poison. But I picked up

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Speaker 3: the New York Post this particularly day because I guess

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Speaker 3: I was meant to times was sold out. I was

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Speaker 3: getting in a taxi. You know, we didn't have phones

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Speaker 3: to mess around with back then. So I happened to

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Speaker 3: see a story that I was obviously meant to see,

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Speaker 3: which was a story about the kid named Stephen Lennon

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Speaker 3: hid been sense to fifteen years to life for a

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Speaker 3: nonviolent first defense cocaine possession charge in New York State.

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Speaker 3: And for those of you who think maybe I just misspoke,

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Speaker 3: which would be a logical thing to assume because it

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Speaker 3: sounds so crazy, I was actually telling this story to

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Speaker 3: the guy I know yesterday who was a coppack. Then

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Speaker 3: he's like, no, no, that can't be. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that could be. So it was a non violent first

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Speaker 3: offense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prison in

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Speaker 3: New York State. They're serving fifteen years to life. Now,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't a small amount of coke, but they didn't

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Speaker 3: catch him selling it. They happened to find it under

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Speaker 3: the seat of his car, and he and his friend

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Speaker 3: who was a passenger in the car both got arrested

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Speaker 3: in charge with the full amount of the drugs. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so in those days. Fortunately one of the organizations

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Speaker 3: I work with has helped to lead the charge to

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Speaker 3: reform these laws. But in those days of the Rockefeller

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Speaker 3: drug laws, any possession over four ounces of coke was

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Speaker 3: treated as an A one felony, the same as murder.

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Speaker 3: So and in fact, hee in some ways you be

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Speaker 3: better off with murder because you can plead down to

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Speaker 3: manslaughter and you can get you know, you can usually

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Speaker 3: get a plea on a drug charge too, if you

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Speaker 3: if you plead guilty, but if you go to trial,

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Speaker 3: you get whacked. So these kids got fifteen years to life.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I think that it hit me so

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Speaker 3: hard was because I had had my own substance abuse

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Speaker 3: issues at this point. This kid's name was Stephen Lennon.

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Speaker 3: He had been in for a little over eight years.

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Speaker 3: At this time, I had been sober for almost eight

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Speaker 3: years because I'd gone to rehab instead of jail because

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Speaker 3: you know, but I had had issues with cocaine, and

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Speaker 3: he was thirty two years old. I was thirty two

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Speaker 3: years old. So I was like, damn, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: religious at all, but there before the grace of something goes,

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Speaker 3: I right, some higher power, So I was like, fuck,

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Speaker 3: I got to try to do something about this. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 3: because this is horrible, Like this is unreal, It's unreal.

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Speaker 1: They probably felt very unfair, right, just like why am

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Speaker 1: I so lucky?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, and he probably thought about why that is,

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Speaker 1: and of course is it just because you're white?

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Speaker 3: Unfair on every level? Right, like how could this be

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Speaker 3: non violent? First offense?

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Speaker 1: You can't puture yourself in there? And you go holy shit.

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Speaker 3: On many occasions I had gotten into a car with

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Speaker 3: someone to buy it who had lots of it in

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Speaker 3: the car because they were driving around selling it to

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Speaker 3: different people all day long.

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Speaker 1: That could have been you as the passenger.

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Speaker 3: Right, absolutely right, you're there unless the way the laws worked,

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Speaker 3: and still unfortunately, work is a weird word to use,

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Speaker 3: because but you know, the way the laws were written.

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Speaker 3: When we put it that way, if you were in

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Speaker 3: the car and you said it wasn't yours, and everybody

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Speaker 3: else says it's not theirs. It belongs to all of

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Speaker 3: you in its full amount. So and this wasn't the

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Speaker 3: only case like this I ever worked on, but anyway,

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Speaker 3: so this was like, holy shit, that definitely could have

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Speaker 3: been me. So he had four point two ounces of coke,

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Speaker 3: which is really dumb, because four ounces was the cliff

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Speaker 3: right where they could charge you.

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Speaker 1: And then just off.

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Speaker 3: Although who knows that maybe it was three point nine

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Speaker 3: and they rounded it up and a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. But anyway, so I decided to see

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Speaker 3: if I could do something about this, and I called

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Speaker 3: his mother. His mother, by the way, the reason the

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Speaker 3: article was even in the newspaper at all was because

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Speaker 3: his mother, Shirley, who was a homemaker from upstate New York,

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Speaker 3: had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario Cuomo

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Speaker 3: for her son, the father of our former governor here,

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Speaker 3: and had gotten letters from the sentencing judge, the warden,

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Speaker 3: and even Geraldine Ferraro wrote a letter on his behalf.

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Speaker 3: And Geraldine Farr, of course, was a major figure. She

336
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 3: was the first woman ever to be nominated to be

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00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,120
Speaker 3: vice president for a major political party of the United States,

338
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Speaker 3: and her own son, John had been arrested for coke

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Speaker 3: but sentenced to house arrest because you know how much

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Speaker 3: he was caught for what it was. But anyway, so she,

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Speaker 3: to her credit, empathized with this woman who had written

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Speaker 3: her a letter out of the blue and wrote a

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Speaker 3: letter to the governor, which you would think would carry

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Speaker 3: some weight. She was from New York. She the vice presidential.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is an important person with you know.

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Speaker 3: And it also is why it made the newspaper because

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Speaker 3: Cuomo turned it down. So him turning down this powerful woman,

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00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 3: you know, was was a story. And so that's why

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Speaker 3: I was in the newspaper. That's why I saw it.

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Speaker 3: So I called up Shirley, and I said, listen, you

351
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Speaker 3: probably think I'm some you know not.

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Speaker 1: You called her up just randomly as a thirty two

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Speaker 1: year old like budding. I'm going to try to help her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know anything about anything. I just

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Speaker 3: saw that her name was in the article. She was

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Speaker 3: in Rome, New York. How many Shirley Lennon's could be

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Speaker 3: in Rome, New York. I called her up. I remember

358
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Speaker 3: saying something on the lines of you know, you probably

359
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Speaker 3: think on some whack job from New York City, but

360
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Speaker 3: I just read this story and I can't. You know,

361
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Speaker 3: it's living rent free in my head. I I got

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Speaker 3: to do something about this. Can I send you some money.

363
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Speaker 3: I don't have a lot of money because I was

364
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Speaker 3: just a young record executive back then, but I'll send

365
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,119
Speaker 3: you what I got. Maybe you can hire a new lawyer. Like,

366
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 3: you know, my eyes are wide, I don't know what

367
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Speaker 3: I'm doing. And she's like, well, it's very nice of you,

368
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Speaker 3: but you know, we've exhausted all of our appeals, and

369
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Speaker 3: you know, we were hoping for clemency, and now that

370
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 3: you know, she's going on just like and she was

371
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Speaker 3: telling me that there was a guy who was a

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Speaker 3: murderer who got into that same prison as her son

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Speaker 3: was sent to that prison where her son was after

374
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Speaker 3: it was convicted. He was already out and her son

375
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Speaker 3: had another seven years to go before he was even out.

376
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Speaker 3: Double for a role. I'm like, okay, something they were right.

377
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Speaker 3: Something's rotten in fucking Denmark and in New York too.

378
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Speaker 3: So I said, look, I'm gonna try to do something.

379
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Speaker 3: So I got the only lawyer I knew. The only

380
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 3: criminal defense latter I knew at the time was a

381
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Speaker 3: guy named Bob Coleena. He represented two of the artist

382
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Speaker 3: I had signed, Stone Temple Pilots.

383
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Speaker 1: And entertainment attorney.

384
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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, like I said he was. He represented Stone Temple,

385
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Speaker 3: Pilots and skid Row whenever they would get arrested, and

386
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 3: they were getting arrested a lot, you know. So I

387
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 3: was like, I had'm on speed dial, right, yeah, So

388
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Speaker 3: I was like, I called Bob. I said, you know,

389
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Speaker 3: see if we sit down, and I put him on

390
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 3: the phone with Shirley and he said, look, it's hopeless,

391
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Speaker 3: but I'd been looking for a pro bon o caase anyway,

392
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Speaker 3: I'll take the case pro bono. I said, great, And

393
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 3: six months later he had found some you know angle

394
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Speaker 3: He said it wouldn't work, but he was able to

395
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Speaker 3: get us a hearing. So off to Malone, New York

396
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 3: we go, which is up on the Canadian border, and

397
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 3: we're in this courtroom. I mean, now bear in mind,

398
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 3: this is still ninety three or maybe early ninety four.

399
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 3: I still had a freaking mullet and purple Doc Martin's

400
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 3: they bring this kid, Stephen in his hands, are shackled

401
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 3: to his waist and his legs are chained together. I'm like,

402
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 3: did this guy just go kill a bunch of people

403
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 3: that we don't know about? Right?

404
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,639
Speaker 1: Is this a serial killer? What was happening? Yeah?

405
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 3: And you know he was sort of a you know,

406
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 3: it's sort of a skinny guy. You know, it sort

407
00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,119
Speaker 3: of not didn't look like an imposing figure anyway. The

408
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 3: arguments go back and forth. I literally have no idea

409
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,880
Speaker 3: what the fuck I'm listening to. And the judge bangs

410
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 3: the gavel down boom and says the emotion is granted.

411
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there holding missus Lennon's hand. She's squeezing

412
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Speaker 3: it as you can imagine. Her husband's on the other side.

413
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 3: Stan is his name, And Bob comes sort of scurrying

414
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,360
Speaker 3: over in his suit and tie, and.

415
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 1: Like, Bob, what happened?

416
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: And he goes, we won? And I was like we what?

417
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 3: And he's like, we won and I was like, holy shit,

418
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 3: that's fucking great. Right, So I was like this and

419
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 3: that was my moment, right, So they sent him home

420
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,880
Speaker 3: and I was like that was fun, right, And fun

421
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: is a trivial word, but it was the most fun

422
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Speaker 3: I could ever remember having hat.

423
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Speaker 1: It was successful.

424
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 3: It was a shot in the dark and also a

425
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 3: pretty badass tale of how you got there. Probably safe

426
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 3: to say that that started informing you from that point

427
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 3: forward a little bit in your life. That's what that?

428
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: What did that tell you?

429
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:01,399
Speaker 4: Like?

430
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: What'd you learn from that?

431
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 3: I guess, well, it was beginner's luck, for sure. It's

432
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 3: I wish it were that easy, but in this case

433
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 3: it was meant to be, obviously, and so it just

434
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 3: left me with this feeling of Wow, I have some

435
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,479
Speaker 3: sort of superpower that I didn't know I have, and

436
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to use it to the best of my

437
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,719
Speaker 3: ability to help as many people as I can. So

438
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 3: that you know that feeling, it never gets old. I mean,

439
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 3: I know, I often say, Payne, I've had a lot

440
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 3: of number one records, I've been super lucky in the

441
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 3: music industry, and not one of them comes close to

442
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 3: the feeling of walking one person out of prison, which

443
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 3: I've had the privilege of doing now many times. So

444
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 3: so that experience changed the course of my life. I

445
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 3: realize how lucky I am on so many levels, and

446
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 3: how lucky are we right just to be sitting here

447
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 3: in New York City. Right just to be born here.

448
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: When you say that, though, what are you thinking about

449
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 1: when you say I'm so lucky? What do you mean?

450
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 3: I mean you listen to Neil de grass Tyson talk

451
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 3: about how your odds of even being born or like

452
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: one in four trillion or something. I don't even know

453
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 3: how you figure that out.

454
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: How microscopic we are in the whole thing.

455
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 3: I can't even win the power ball and that's only

456
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 3: like one in a you know, one hundred million or

457
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: something chances or two hundred million. But the idea of

458
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 3: being born is one thing. But then being born as

459
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: a human, you know, compared to being born as you know,

460
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 3: you could be a you know, it could be a a.

461
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: Lot of animals or that would suck to be that

462
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 1: would suck, right, yeah.

463
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: And then there's you know, and then there's the idea

464
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: of being born where we were born. If you were

465
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: born here in America, right to the people we were

466
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 3: born to, right, because you could be born in America

467
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: but be born in you.

468
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: Can't choose that. You can't choose where you were born.

469
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: Who you are.

470
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: You're just you're born in North Korea. You're fucked, You're

471
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: just You might as well be not born, you're stuck

472
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 3: there forever forever. Yeah, yeah, and so and there's so

473
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: many places where you could be born, you know, into

474
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: just you know, I mean impossible situations, right, and by

475
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 3: the way, we have them in America too, Right, if

476
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: you were born in the Mississippi Delta, you know, it's

477
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 3: a lot different, you know. I mean, I recognize that

478
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: there are doors that opened for me that you know,

479
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 3: by virtual of the fact that my father, you know,

480
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 3: who was the first generation immigrant, you know, was grew

481
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 3: up borderline homeless, you know, like a lot of immigrants,

482
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 3: you know, built a better future for us, and that's

483
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 3: what everybody wants, right and so for us kids. And

484
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: he was able to, you know, get me that faithful interview.

485
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 3: I make no bones about it, right, I mean he

486
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 3: when I was a misfit eighteen year old smoking pod

487
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 3: all day, didn't want to go to college, he knew

488
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 3: somebody who knew somebody who got me an interview at

489
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 3: Warner Communications, and they gave me this one year trainee

490
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: position and stuck me at Atlantic Records with just like

491
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 3: I said, with the staple gun and some double sided tape.

492
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 3: And I was like, I fell in love with the

493
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 3: music business. But had that door not been opened, who knows,

494
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 3: you know. I mean like it's like, did you.

495
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: Know at that time though, how I guess special that

496
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: was or did that come in sort of a nuanced

497
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: way in hindsight as you grew older.

498
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: No, it came I think you know, as you as

499
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: you grow up, you start to really appreciate that type

500
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 3: of you know, privilege if you want to call it that,

501
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 3: or lock or is you know, serendipity or whatever you

502
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 3: want to call it. It's you know, but it's important

503
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: that we don't take it for granted, and that we

504
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: try to you know, reach back and try to create

505
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: opportunities for other people who weren't as lucky, you know.

506
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 3: So and then of course, part of that being unlucky

507
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: business is being born in a place where you're or

508
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 3: in a color of your skin or born in a

509
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: skin color I should say, where you're that much more

510
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 3: likely to be victimized by our you know, disastrous obsession

511
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 3: with mass incarceration and you know, and locking up our

512
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: own citizens at a rate that no other country has

513
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: ever done in the history of the world and and

514
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 3: I hope will never ever do again. So you know,

515
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 3: that's all of that. Look, you have to get lucky

516
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: in life in a lot of ways, right, every everyone's

517
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: in an average of like three car accidents I've heard,

518
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 3: you know in their life. I got like two more

519
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: then you got two more to go. I guess, yeah, yeah,

520
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: I think I've used up my quota. But you know,

521
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: so you know, there's there's just so much luck in

522
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: everything that we do.

523
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: So how's that shift your viewpoint? Then? I mean, because

524
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: it's easy to it's easy to say we're so lucky, right,

525
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: but then okay, but how do you translate that into

526
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: your life? Like how do you actually look at the

527
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: bigger picture and what are you really telling yourself every day?

528
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: As you you know, it's just a moment to say

529
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: we're so lucky, but yees can still suck.

530
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, how do you.

531
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,239
Speaker 1: Well use that to propel you?

532
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: I guess it's a good question, so perspective, right, And

533
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: you know on my podcast, you know, one of the

534
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: podcasts that the one that I host, but one of

535
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: the ones that we distribute on my through my company,

536
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: Lava for Good, is called Wrongful Conviction. I was the

537
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: first one I started in twenty sixteen. You know, we're

538
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: I don't know, fifty sixty million downloads and now whatever

539
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: it is, and you know, a few hundred episodes. And

540
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: each week I interview somebody who is the opposite, who

541
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: was beyond unlucky, who got arrested, charged and convicted of

542
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 3: a crime they didn't commit. Sometimes I go to death

543
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: row to interview these people. I'm going back to death

544
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: row in Texas to visit one of them next month,

545
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 3: a guy named Rob Will who's innocent, but he's on

546
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 3: death row. And so that'll keep you in check, right, yeah,

547
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: I mean talk about putting gratitude in your attitude. So

548
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: every week is another story that is absolutely mind blowing

549
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: because you sit there and you go, how can Temagon Kenzu,

550
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 3: for instance, right be in prison in Michigan now almost

551
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 3: thirty seven years when everyone knows and knew back then

552
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: that he was almost five hundred miles away at the

553
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 3: time the murder was committed, and yet there he sits

554
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: thirty seven years.

555
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: So what is the reason then?

556
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: Because they like to close these cases, right, they don't

557
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 3: want to be wrong our system of justice. My Amanda

558
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: Knox is like my little sister. We actually call each other.

559
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: H I've actually hung up with her a couple of times.

560
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: She's great, amazing, She speaks so eloquently about this. She

561
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: talks about how we should have. What we have is

562
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: an adversarial system of justice, which means the prosecution wants

563
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: to win. Of course, the defense wants to win. That's

564
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: true in any system. But what we should have is

565
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: an inquisitorial system of justice, as many other countries do,

566
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 3: where you're what you're trying to do is get to

567
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 3: the truth. You're not trying to win. But as so

568
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 3: many of our ele of our top people in the

569
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 3: justice system, DA's and judges are elected, and for them

570
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: it it's good to have a lot of convictions. Right,

571
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: you look to at least have the opting.

572
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: You get replaced if you're the guy who is losing

573
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: all your cases as a DA. Right, and think about this,

574
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: to hire the profile the case right, small community, grizzly murder,

575
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, it becomes the pissing contest.

576
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: A man is the perfect example of this, right, And

577
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: then it becomes trial by media and among other things,

578
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 3: And it also becomes the thing where there's pressure from

579
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 3: the community, from your bosses, from your maybe even from

580
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: your own family. To solve this case. And if you do,

581
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: there's good news. You're gonna be the newspaper, right, You're

582
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 3: gonna be heralded, you might get promoted, you might have

583
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: an opportunity to move up to a different position that

584
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: you'd like to have, run for a higher office, etc.

585
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: You have prosecutors that brag about having a perfect record

586
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: in murder cases, right, meaning a perfect record of getting

587
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: everyone convicted. But in this country where you have states

588
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: like Louisiana and Florida, where for every seven people in

589
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 3: each of those states that's been executed, three have been

590
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: found innocent on death row.

591
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: That's a real stup.

592
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 3: Huh. And that doesn't even include the ones.

593
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: That's too many, that's any is too many?

594
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: How about that?

595
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, any is too many? Yes, you're right.

596
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: I mean if that was you, that would be horrible.

597
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: This is what I say to people who are in

598
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: favorite of death penalty. Yeah, they're not even to use

599
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: a baseball analogy, they're not even batting seven hundred. It

600
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: might not be six hundred. And these are death penalty cases, right,

601
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: the ones that should be most scrutinized.

602
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: So they're not even good.

603
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: They're not even good. At it. They're not even getting

604
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: it right, Like I said, nowhere close to seventy percent

605
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: of the time. And think about this, if you're on

606
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: death row and the whole system is stacked against you,

607
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: once you're convicted, right, you're no longer innocent.

608
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: Until I'm doing that is a whole different thing.

609
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: Now you're guilty until proven innocent. Although I believe the

610
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: once you're arrested, that whole thing kicks in. But I

611
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: think those are just words for the most part of

612
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: our system. But so, yeah, I you're on death row,

613
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: how the hell are you going to prove that you're innocent?

614
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: It's almost impossible. So if all those people, almost all

615
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: of whom were very poor, were able to find a

616
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 3: way to prove their innocent from inside death row, how

617
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: many others were there that weren't able to Who are

618
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 3: mentally incapacitated, who are who have given up hope, who

619
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: are not in a position or just don't can't find

620
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: the evidence or the evidence is you know, and you

621
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: interview the guy just to give you an idea of

622
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: how fucked up our system is. Unwrongful conviction. I interviewed

623
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: a guy named Anthony Ipanovich. I spoke about him when

624
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: I was on Joe Rogan and Anthony was convicted of

625
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: a crime and didn't commit in the state of Ohio.

626
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: Since the death, the state said the DNA evidence had

627
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: been lost. This was a there's a violent crime that

628
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: had a lot of DNA, right, I think it was.

629
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: I think it was a rape murder, And yeah it was.

630
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: And thirty two years later the DNA is found. It

631
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: was stored in the wrong place or whatever. It was

632
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: right under here the whole time, like somebody somehow or other.

633
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 3: The defense got ahold of it and they got it

634
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: tested and it proved what he had been saying all

635
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: LNG is that he was innocent. So he was freed right.

636
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: After thirty two years gets worse.

637
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: So he's home for seventeen eighteen months. He's a grandfather

638
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: now right, sitting on the porch with his grandchildren. One day,

639
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: he said, eight cop cars, well up or a dozen

640
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 3: whatever it was. Tons of cops jump out and re

641
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: arrest him. He's like, what are you doing.

642
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: They just couldn't let it go.

643
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: They took him back to death throw because somebody in

644
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 3: the halls of power of justice quote unquote, we don't

645
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: even call it a justice system. We would call it

646
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: a legal system because this little justice in it. But

647
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: somebody had discovered that there's a statute in Ohio which

648
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: we're working to overturn now that says that the only

649
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: person that can question DNA testing is the incarcerated person themself.

650
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 3: And because he didn't request it, because he had been

651
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: told it didn't exist, the fact that it had been

652
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: found and proved his innocent and proved his innocence was

653
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: not relevant, and they put him right back on death row,

654
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: which is where he is right now as we're sitting

655
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: here having this conversation. Where is the logic in that

656
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 3: there's none. They know he didn't do it, but they

657
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: put him back on death row.

658
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: So they really just went and found a loophole because

659
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: they wanted to be right. And now we have to

660
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: work to change the law in Ohio. That's a systemic

661
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: cultural problem with the whole thing.

662
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: Right, and let us not forget that the Supreme Court,

663
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: thanks to Justice Scalia, I think he was the one

664
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: who wrote the opinion or whatever it said that actual

665
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: innocence is not a reason to be freed from death rout.

666
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: That's proof right there.

667
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that doesn't they prefer finality over justice. So

668
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: and let us also reflect for a moment that in

669
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: almost every case, well in which yes, in almost every case,

670
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: because there are exceptions to this and I can't explain that,

671
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: but in almost every case in which someone is wrongfully

672
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: convicted of a crime, a violent crime, the actual perpetrator

673
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: remains free.

674
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: So now you're not only is this guy's life ruined,

675
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: but someone who likely kills people is potentially doing it again.

676
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there are certainly people who you know, do

677
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: these things once and then never again. But I think,

678
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's a hard one to prove, but I

679
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 3: think it's extremely likely and logical that if someone does

680
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: something like this and gets away with it, they have

681
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: that proclivity they probably will do it again. I mean,

682
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 3: especially if they get away with it when they're young,

683
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: when you're still you know, more likely to do these things.

684
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: We know that people age out of crime, which is

685
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: why it's so insane that we have this aging prison

686
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: population in America. It's hard not to think about. It

687
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: goes back to what we're talking about before about being lucky.

688
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 3: The juxtaposition, you know, like if it was a split

689
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: screen and you know, I'm in my nice two bedroom

690
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: apartment with a view and a dog and an espresso machine.

691
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: And if I want to go for a walk afterwards,

692
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 3: that's what I'm gonna go do. If I want to

693
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: go to the gym whatever. Right, like most people, I

694
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: enjoy a level of freedom that is incredible. And then

695
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: you know, on the other side of the screen, you

696
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: have this guy who did nothing wrong in his life,

697
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 3: who is in a five by nine foot cell the

698
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 3: size of your bathroom at home, most likely, if you're

699
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 3: having an abnormal sized bathroom like most people, with nothing

700
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: but like steel and concrete, and it's hot and it

701
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: smells terrible, and it's noisy, and it's miserable and the

702
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: food stinks, and you're just trapped there with nothing but hardship,

703
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 3: deprivation and misery. And it's like, why do we do

704
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: it like this? Why, Like we don't need a death penalty,

705
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: and we certainly don't need to have two million people

706
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: in prison. It's like, you know, we lock well, we

707
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: lock black people up here at six times the rate

708
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: of white people. We also lock more black people up

709
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 3: per capita in America to this very day than South

710
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Africa during apartheid and Jesus, you know, and inside those numbers,

711
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: you know, like many people know, we have four point

712
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: four percent of the world's population, but like twenty five

713
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: percent of the world's prison population, thirty three percent of

714
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: the world's female prison population. One out of every three

715
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: women in the prison cell right now as we're sitting here,

716
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 3: is in this country, the freest country in the world.

717
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: Those numbers don't add up.

718
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I hate to just barrage you with statistics.

719
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: But no, I mean those things matter to kind of

720
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: paint a clearer picture for me in this moment right now,

721
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: just the how wrong they are.

722
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 3: And then you know, I'll just give you one more, right.

723
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: I mean, look, the social scientists that studied this, you know,

724
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: from Ivy League schools or whatever, estimate that between four

725
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 3: and seven percent of people in prison in America are innocent.

726
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: I believe that's very low because I think they're not

727
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 3: taking certain things into account, like the guilty plea problem,

728
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 3: and which is the fact that a lot of people

729
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: plead guilty when they're innocent because they're looking at too

730
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: harsh because the alternative, the risk is total total it

731
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 3: could be looking at life in prison. And so I

732
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: think that, you know, it's probably a lot closer to

733
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: ten percent at least. But even if you take a

734
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: mid case scenario of the most conservative estimates, which is

735
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: four to seven percent. If you take five and a

736
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 3: half percent and say, well, there's two million people plus

737
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 3: in prison in America right now, that's a lot of people.

738
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: That's one hundred, one hundred and ten thousand people, right,

739
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: And that's on the low estimate and doesn't even include

740
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 3: the fact that we have all these people in jail,

741
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousand people in jail right now in America

742
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: who haven't been convicted of anything. They just can't the

743
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 3: two poor to post bail, so they're just stuck there.

744
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: And like, and jails are you know, most people think

745
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: jail sounds more benign than prison. Most jails are much

746
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: more dangerous than even the maximum security prisons that you

747
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 3: hear about, right, because it's pure chaos.

748
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: Just some podn town somewhere and some sheriff who's running

749
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: out how they want to And that sounds horrifying.

750
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 3: Pote On town. How about right across the river from here,

751
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: Rikers Island, right where, yeah, we're right there, y yeah,

752
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: where since our new mayor took office, twenty nine people

753
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: inmates have lost their lives there, and we don't really

754
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 3: use the word inmate anymore. Twenty nine incarcerated men have

755
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: lost their lives, mostly through murder well waiting trial at

756
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 3: Rikers Island, just since this new mayor took office. That's

757
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 3: twenty nine. That's twenty nine people who had lives and

758
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: families and dreams, and you know, and some of them

759
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: are guilty. You know, I'm not only everybody's innocent. Some

760
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: of them are guilty, but guilty of what. Some of

761
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: them are guilty of shoplifting or jumping a turnstile or

762
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: you know, drinking a beer in the park at night

763
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 3: or something. You know, like they got arrested for nuisance crimes,

764
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: but they were too poor to post bail, which is

765
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 3: why I've been deeply connected to the bail reform movement

766
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: for many years as well.

767
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's clear to me that the work that

768
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: you're doing, which is also very admirable, is helping. But what,

769
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: in your opinion, is it going to actually literally take

770
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 1: in a grand scheme of things to make this problem

771
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: go away.

772
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: Awareness is probably the first thing, right, But even if

773
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 3: we all knew well then we have to once people know,

774
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: that starts a ripple effect. Right. It's why I started

775
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: the podcast, the Wrongful Conviction Podcast, is to make potential

776
00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: jurors more thoughtful, right, more ware of the problems that

777
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: exist in our system, and less likely to therefore just

778
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 3: vote to convict because it seems like that would be

779
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 3: the reason why you would be there, which is what

780
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: most people think. So and then if you extend that out,

781
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 3: you know, people ask people what can I do? Well,

782
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: what you can do is you can, of course, you

783
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: can post about it and talk about it and do

784
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 3: what you can on that level. You can also vote,

785
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 3: and it sounds like a cliche, but vote in local elections, right,

786
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: vote in DA races, voting prosecutor, I mean judge races,

787
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: things like that. Look at these candidates. Your vote means

788
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 3: so much in those races. I mean you should vote.

789
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 3: You know, presidential races too, But when there's a small

790
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 3: number of people voting, your vote is you know, super important. Yeah,

791
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: pull some weight. I mean some of these races have

792
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 3: come down to one vote. I mean it's not hyperbole. Yeah,

793
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: So if we can elect better people, and if we

794
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 3: can you know, throw out of office people who are

795
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: you know, these conservative uote unquote tough on crime, which

796
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 3: is a nonsensical thing. They're not tough on crime, they're

797
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: tough on people. You know, the places that have the

798
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: highest crime rates are all the ones that have the

799
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: most conservative prosecutors. And in places where we've had prosecutors

800
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: come in who have taken alternative approaches, the crime goes down.

801
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very simple thing. Pain and I

802
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: talk about this all the time, and like I said,

803
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: I do a lot of public speaking. So if you

804
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: if you you know, if you're interested, you can contact me,

805
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 3: and I'm always interested in doing that. You can awesome

806
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: DM me at It's Jason flam Or even I'll put

807
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 3: my email address in here right now, it's Jason dot

808
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 3: Flom at Lava Records dot com. We know what causes crime,

809
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 3: and we know what prevents crime. It's not what you

810
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 3: think what causes crime. Desperation.

811
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: Desperation.

812
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 3: Desperation causes crime. Yeah, that makes sense, and it's a

813
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: big word right under that. When people say what about

814
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 3: mental health, I'd say that's desperation. Right. If you have

815
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 3: severe enough mental health challenges and no one's helping you

816
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: with them, then it's not illogical to think that you're

817
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: going to act out in a way that we as

818
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 3: society go, hey, that's a crime.

819
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned going back to the root of the crime

820
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: and it being related to desperation and mental illness sometimes

821
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: and these factors. Were you getting at that maybe we

822
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 1: should solve that problem.

823
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 3: Yes, So what causes crime is desperation and what prevents

824
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: crime is hope. And so it's not hard when you

825
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: think of it in those terms to see what I mean,

826
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: Because when you have people who live in desperate poverty

827
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 3: without any opportunity, where they're being harassed by police, where

828
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 3: there's gunshots in their neighborhood from people who are you know,

829
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 3: on the other side of the law whatever, where they're

830
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: witnessing you know, traumatic they're having traumatic experiences, witnessing violence

831
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: day in and day out. I'm reading that book by

832
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: Coaches his last name, called Between the World and Me.

833
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: It's incredible how that it puts a fine point on this,

834
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: but so many things do. But so eventually, if you

835
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 3: don't see a way out of that, it's not illogical

836
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: that you will resort to it itself. For sure, you'll,

837
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 3: you know, you'll do what you need to do to

838
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 3: survive or to feel like you're giving yourself, like I said,

839
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: a way out. And look, many of the most prominent

840
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 3: members of our society who came from that type of background.

841
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 3: We're involved in selling drugs, or we're involved in, you know,

842
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: some other activities which you know, the entrepreneurial spirit is

843
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: what drives them to success in the corporate world or

844
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: in the music world or entertainment or whatever. And those

845
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: that same gene sort of drives you to do what

846
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: you have to do to make it when you're in

847
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: an in a situation where you know there doesn't seem

848
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: to be, you know, other than maybe sports or music

849
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 3: a way out. You know, where you're dealing with terrible

850
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 3: schools and terrible hardships, and you know your father's in prison,

851
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 3: as too many fathers are in this country. Goes back

852
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: to that problem, right, We know that that cycle, right,

853
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: the number one thing that determines whether a child will

854
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 3: end up in prisons, whether they've had a parent in prison.

855
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: So by locking up generations of black people for crimes

856
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 3: that white people get away with all the time, is

857
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 3: perpetuating that cycle. So if you create hope on the

858
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 3: other hand, by establishing social programs. There are simple things

859
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 3: you can do. By the way that this has been proven.

860
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: This is not just me that if you do nothing

861
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 3: else but fix the lights in the poorest neighborhood and

862
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: whatever city you live in, right, if you do nothing

863
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 3: but pick the garbage up off the streets. I don't

864
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: mean you, but the city right, or the town or anybody.

865
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: If you establish a green space or a community center,

866
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: or even put in a taco stand where people can

867
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: gather and meet and you know, and find commonality, find

868
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 3: common ground, crime goes down dramatically just on the basis

869
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: of those things. And it goes back to what I'm saying.

870
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: It reduces desperation, it creates hope, and crime goes down.

871
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: So we know that that's what works. What do we

872
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 3: see in city after city, including New York City right now,

873
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 3: money being pulled from libraries, being pulled from after school programs,

874
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: being pulled from sports.

875
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're just saying, give a shit, be

876
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: a better human.

877
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just got a T shirt that says be

878
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 3: a good fucking human. Yet, just like we know that

879
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: police don't make us safe, right they did, we'd be

880
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: the safest society and the history of the world. We

881
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: spend more money on police and in prisons than any

882
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: society ever in the.

883
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: Aftery of the world. He's safe, right.

884
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: The crime goes up and down globally. It doesn't go

885
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: up locally nationally close. It goes up and down, you know,

886
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: ebbs and flows for various reasons, and I'm not smart

887
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 3: enough to figure it out, and freakonomics, they had a

888
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: whole theory about that. But the fact is that's not

889
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: what makes us safe. I mean, I say it over

890
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 3: and over again. Police don't prevent crime, right, and they

891
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 3: rarely solve crime crimes. So you know, how do they.

892
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: Make us safe?

893
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 3: They don't.

894
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: We'll close some cases though, close some.

895
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 3: Cases, but too often they're wrong, you know, and it's

896
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: a very small percentage of cases that get closed anyway.

897
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: So the thing is, you know, we need to we

898
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 3: need to do what's been been tried and is being

899
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: tried in cities around this country, which is alternatives to

900
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 3: policing right where you know, we should not be tasking

901
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 3: the police with doing things that they have no training. Yeah,

902
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 3: and then and that's most of what they do. Right.

903
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 3: The number one and two reasons for interactions of police

904
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: and the public. Are homelessness and traffic in fractions.

905
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, in all the doom and gloom of the

906
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: problems right on a on a human level, in the

907
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, do you think that there is

908
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: hope at all?

909
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think there's hope.

910
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: I'm a I mean, and I know that might just

911
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: be a mentality, like, but do you do you see

912
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: a path that we get better? Like this?

913
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: You know? Now, it's funny because, like I said, many

914
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 3: years ago, New York he did a story about me

915
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: and this this journalist named John Seabrook. He said that

916
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: I have a look on my face of disappointed optimism.

917
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 3: I thought, you do it.

918
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: That's what he said, disappointed. That's pretty spot.

919
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 3: On, right.

920
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

921
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 3: So but no, I still do have hope. I mean,

922
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 3: I I often say I've seen too many miracles to

923
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 3: stop leading, to stop leaving.

924
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: Yes, So yeah, And is that what reminds you when

925
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: you when you when you when it happens, right.

926
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: It takes somebody. When I was a kid, and I

927
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: was idealistic, and I was looking to change these things,

928
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 3: you know, in my young thirties, and this guy puts

929
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: his arm around me and says, kid, it takes thirty

930
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: years to change anything, and now here it is thirty

931
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 3: years later. And you know, I've worked on drug decriminalization,

932
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 3: among other things, and you can buy weed in Washington

933
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 3: Square Park from an author rized cellar instead of getting

934
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: hitting ahead with the baton by a cop and then

935
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 3: dragged off to jail. Right, So like it's there is progress.

936
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 3: Our prison population is down, you know, slightly. It needs

937
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: to go down. I think I think we can reduce

938
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: our prison population by at least eighty percent tomorrow and

939
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 3: have no negative impact on public safety impact. We have

940
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: a positive impact on public safety short and long term,

941
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 3: but especially long term. So I do have hope, and

942
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: I think, you know, if we can, if we can

943
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 3: really look the young generation of today, and you know,

944
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 3: my kids are part of it. My daughter teaches, been

945
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 3: teaching in prisons for years and years and she, by

946
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 3: the way, I have to plug this. Her new podcast

947
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 3: is called Erase the Murder of Alma Sands, and it's

948
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: the story of the first murder trial in American history,

949
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 3: at which, by the way, that the guy was guilty

950
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 3: as fuck, but the defense team the murder victim. It

951
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: deals with misogyny and class and everything like that, right,

952
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: because the victim was not a prominent person, but the murderer,

953
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 3: who was her lover, was part of a very wealthy family,

954
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: and so his family hired for the defense Alexander Hamilton

955
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: and Aaron Burr. And so what you'll hear in this

956
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: podcast it's called Erase the Murder of Alma Sands. And

957
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: what you'll hear is the actual trial because my daughter

958
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: Allison found the transcript amazing, and you'll find out some

959
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: things that you may not want to know about Hamilton

960
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 3: and Burr. We all know was like you know, it

961
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: was not a good gun.

962
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: Turns out pieces.

963
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 3: It turns out they were willing to do a lot

964
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 3: of bad things in order to exonerate their guilty client.

965
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: And this was the trial, as she says, it's the

966
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: most it's it's the most famous murder trial you never

967
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 3: heard of because it was the first one. And a

968
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: lot of the things that we talked about today, there's

969
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 3: still problems that our system came from that trial. And

970
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: yours truly is Judge John Lansick. So I get to

971
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 3: say overruled and a lot which is really fun that

972
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 3: you're one line, Yeah, we need one more take I'm

973
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: not an actor your Yeah. No, I had to do

974
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 3: a multi do you do it under the direction of

975
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 3: my daughter? It was pretty I need a gavel man.

976
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: It's overruled, overruled.

977
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta be's like stern different.

978
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: That's pretty good.

979
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 3: I have to say a bunch of times.

980
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: If you want to help and you give a ship,

981
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: what would you suggest a listener to do that would

982
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: make a difference at all.

983
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: First of all, thank you for listening, you know, and

984
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 3: if you've listened this far, then you probably have hopefully

985
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: learned some stuff you didn't already know.

986
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: Stuck on the tarmac somewhere.

987
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: Get you connect it, or in the traffic jam, Sorry

988
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: about the traffic, you know, we actually uh yeah, with

989
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,959
Speaker 3: us podcasters, we like traffic. So one of the first

990
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 3: things you can do is when you get that annoying

991
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 3: jury duty notice in the mail, throw it away. Don't

992
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 3: listen to pain serve serve on Jury's. Yeah, if you're

993
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: listening to us now, then you're much more educated than

994
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: ninety percent of the other people that are out there.

995
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 3: I see. And we need you to be on a

996
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 3: jury and be you know, awake and aware because the

997
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 3: life you save could save. You know, there's that great

998
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 3: saying that it's better that ten guilty men go free

999
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 3: than that one innocent should suffer. And I think everyone

1000
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: would agree if that one innocent was somebody they loved,

1001
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: so and everybody who's in that defender's chair as somebody

1002
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: that they love, and think about it too, like even

1003
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 3: somebody could be technically guilty of a crime, but you

1004
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: might think that crime shouldn't really be a crime, right,

1005
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: drug possession or some other ridiculous thing, and you don't

1006
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 3: have to convict them. You can it's called civil disobedience.

1007
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 3: You can exercise you right and just say, you know what,

1008
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: not guilty.

1009
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: You can just disagree.

1010
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 3: You just say not guilty, and that's it.

1011
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: It only takes one first interesting point because I don't

1012
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: know if that's you know, complete common knowledge.

1013
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 3: I don't think.

1014
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's good to know.

1015
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: So so serve on the jury's encourage other people to

1016
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 3: do so. Spread the word, you know, with with among

1017
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 3: your friend group, whatever whatever form that takes. You know.

1018
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 3: I think there are organizations you can look up. One

1019
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: of the ones I think is one of the most

1020
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 3: important ones is an organization called Civil Rights Core. I'll

1021
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 3: tell you this. Another thing you can do today right

1022
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 3: now that's free, is there's a newsletter called Alex A

1023
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 3: L e. C. S Apostrophe s alex Coppaganda newsletter. Copaganda

1024
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 3: is what the media engages in as the copaganda. Yeah,

1025
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: you got it, you got it, So subscribe to that blog.

1026
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 3: It's fantastic and there's so much to be learned from that.

1027
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 3: And then you know, check out check out more podcasts

1028
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 3: like if You're if You've if We've gotten your attention,

1029
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 3: check it out, you know, learn more. You know, you

1030
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 3: might find a case even on on my original show

1031
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 3: rompla compaction that that touches you in such a way

1032
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,720
Speaker 3: that you want to get involved. You can write to people,

1033
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 3: you can you can go to the Douglas Project. Right

1034
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: there's a thing called Douglas Project named after Frederick Douglass

1035
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 3: that is an organization relatively new that was founded with

1036
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 3: the idea that we can help to bring people inside

1037
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 3: of prisons and break that, you know, break break down

1038
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 3: that invisible wall between people and the outside people on

1039
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 3: the inside. That you can write letters, you can volunteer,

1040
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 3: you can establish you can create hope for somebody who's

1041
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 3: in a hopeless place.

1042
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think that all the work you've done and

1043
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: continue to do is inspiring and it's a pretty badass

1044
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, I definitely got something

1045
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: from it, and it kind of leaves me with the

1046
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: lingering thought that we can all do something and big

1047
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: or small, it still matters.

1048
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1049
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: So, I but I appreciate your time today, and uh,

1050
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: it's been fun and I've I've learned more stats than

1051
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: I'll probably remember. I'll have to go write them down.

1052
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 3: You may have to listen to your own podcast, I might,

1053
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 3: you know, Yeah, that would help.

1054
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: To listen to yours first. We might put me a while.

1055
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can put crim notes in the flip notes

1056
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: in there, crem notes, whatever the hell you call that.

1057
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: I do watch out your see your daughter's podcast.

1058
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: The daughter's podcast is erased.

1059
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna do that one first because I'm curious.

1060
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, dude, it's good. It's really good. It's getting

1061
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 3: a lot of attention, and it's going to be a

1062
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 3: real rest's excitedly really exciting. So yeah, yeah, so, uh, listen,

1063
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 3: I just want to thank everybody for taking the time

1064
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: to listen. I know you got other things to do,

1065
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 3: and uh, you know. Look, I'm a fan of this

1066
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: guy here, Payne, So I like, I like being on

1067
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 3: a show, and I think maybe we'll, uh, we'll figure

1068
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 3: out some some other hills we can climb together. Yeah,

1069
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 3: fucking around and find out. Yeah, let's fuck around and

1070
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: find out done.

1071
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: Cheers.

1072
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and

1073
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1074
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 4: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1075
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1076
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 4: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

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Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

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Speaker 4: Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo. Production

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Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

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Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

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Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

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Speaker 4: talkingtodeathpodcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

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Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

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Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses. You can subscribe

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Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts, or go to tenderfootplus

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Speaker 1: dot com