WEBVTT - #077 Jason Flom and Lara Bazelon with Tony Wright 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.400 I've never been in trouble in my life. 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.120 I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:05.360 I mean. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:11.680 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.800 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.280 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.400 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:24.520 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:24.880 with this. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.280 How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.000 corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:42.880 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.159 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:51.879 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.040 Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:55.520 but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally little trust in humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:21.399 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:26.399 I have a very special show planned for you. One 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.240 of the people I admire most in the innocence movement, 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.560 Lara Baslon, is here. Lara, first of all, before I 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.240 introduce you and read off your accomplishments, welcome to the show. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:38.800 Thank you for having me so. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.520 Lara is a writer and associate professor at the University 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.679 of San Francisco Law School, and she's the director of 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:50.080 the Criminal, Juvenile Justice, and Racial Justice clinics. And her 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.680 resume is much much longer than that, having spent a 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.760 long time as a public defender doing fantastic writing on 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.000 all different aspects of wrongful conviction and places like Slate 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.560 and New York Times and so many others. So it's 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.200 really awesome that you're here. We have a lot to 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.000 talk about, absolutely, And our other guest is someone who 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.120 listeners will be familiar with, and it's going to be 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.200 amazing to catch up with him. Tony Wright is here. 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.960 And Tony, of course, served twenty five years in prison 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.920 in Pennsylvania for a crime it was so obvious that 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.239 he didn't commit that when the jury finally exonerated him 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.560 declared him not guilty, it took them all of five 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.079 minutes to figure it out. And that's right. They deliberated 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.880 it for five minutes before declaring him totally innocent. So Tony, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.600 welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, My. 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.040 Man, pleasure always mind. Man, it's been a long time. 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.080 I bet it's been overdue. Thanks for having me back. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.880 Tony, right back, live and in person on wrongful Conviction. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.640 And this time you brought a couple of very special 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.640 guests with you. Do you want to go ahead and 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:57.600 introduce them or you want me to do it. I'm 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.840 gonna do it, Okay. So you brought two very special 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:06.080 guess Shannon Coleman, who is a shining example of everything 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.079 that restorative justice can and should and will be, and 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:14.560 her wonderful daughter Lauren, who actually really started this ball 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.080 rolling when she read an article and brought it to 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.880 your mom's attention. And that must have been an amazing 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.600 moment and an amazing process. So I want to hear 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.640 about that from both of your perspectives. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.000 Thank you so much for having us come in tell 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:30.640 our story. 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.880 So Lara, let's turn to you first. What got you 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:36.800 into this work? 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.400 So part of what I used to do was direct 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.080 an innocence project a small one at Loyola Law School 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.760 in LA and I litigated a case in twenty twelve 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.840 and twenty thirteen. Our client's name, believe it or not, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.320 was Cash Register and he had been wrongfully convicted in 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.880 nineteen seventy nine of a murder that he didn't commit. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.080 So thirty four years later we were trying to get 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.920 him out, were successful in exonerating him. And then after 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.320 that that experience led me to think, well, what happens 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.200 to people in the aftermath. So there's so many victims. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.640 There's cash there's his mother who waited in their tiny 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.400 apartment for him to come home. He'd been snatched there 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.360 by the police and basically kidnapped by the prison industrial 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.920 complex for thirty four years. There was the fact that 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.799 they had lost his brother, that his father died soon after. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.800 And then there was the victims and the original crime 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.240 victims and the man's family who died, and what they 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.279 had to go through realizing that the truth that they'd 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.400 always been told was not the truth at all. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.239 It wasn't the truth at all, as is the case. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.159 And you know every one of these wrongful convict cases, 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.880 but some are worse than others. Right, I mean, there 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.680 are somewhere mistakes were made, but you could say, well, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.760 you know, there was circumstantial evidence and it piled up, 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:52.719 and you know, the above of the cash Register wasn't 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.159 one of those cases. And by the way, that is 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.640 his real name. It's cash with a K. And the 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.719 fact is with him. It's so dramatic to me because 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.800 he was in prison for almost twice as long as 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:03.920 he had been alive outside of prison. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.400 That's right, And just one edition about the name. His 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.160 name is cash Register with a K. Interestingly, the other 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.240 brother was named Norman. So the family naming system was 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:15.880 just kind of the whole spectrum. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.000 Somebody had a sense of humor. I don't know, it's 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:19.920 really interesting. I mean, I don't know what I would name. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:21.880 My last name was Register. I'm trying to think what 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.400 I would name my kids. But there's a funny mind 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.680 in there somewhere. I'll come up with it later. Anyway, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.960 So you got cash out there, cash out there goes 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:38.560 another fun But anyway, and we know I know obviously 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.640 firsthand how incredible that feels. It's addictive, isn't it. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:43.800 Yes, it is. 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.760 It's like a drug. There's no feeling in the world 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.800 like having a judge find your client innocent and having 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.760 them walk out of prison after having been there for decades. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.360 Yeah, it's remarkable. I mean it's interesting because people who 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.960 know me and know I have this sort of string 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:05.320 double life as a record executive and criminal justice reformer. 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.479 You know, they'll ask me, you know, what is it 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.599 about this? Why am I so devoted spending so much time? 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.960 And the answer is very simple. Years from now or 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.159 even now, no one will care who signed Katy Perry, Like, 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.680 it doesn't really matter. No one remembers who signed the Beatles, 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.200 for fuck's sakes, right, So but after I'm gone, you 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.920 know the you know, the lasting impact of the people, 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:32.960 or after we're going, I should say, of the people 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.120 whose lives we've been able to positively affect, who were 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:41.240 stuck in the ultimate nightmare really as as hopeless as 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.480 they could be. That's the good stuff, right, and that's 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.360 the stuff that really means something. So anyway, it's good 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:48.599 to be in this and it's good to be in 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:53.560 it with you. And meanwhile, very exciting is a new 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:57.320 development in your life, which is a book. You've got 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.240 a book, a real hardcover book. I'm holding it in 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.039 my hands, it feels good, it looks great. It's from 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.520 Beacon Pressed. It's called Rectify the Power of Restorative Justice 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:13.640 after Wrongful Conviction And I'm reading it now and I'm hooked. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.360 So tell me the inspiration behind this book. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.280 How did you come to So the inspiration really did 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.000 grow out of Cash's case, because, as you say, it's 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.920 so important to be able to really help save someone's life, 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.040 and then afterwards, what you really want for them is 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:28.920 for them to have a good life. And what does 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.800 that mean? Because, as you know, when people have been 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.080 sent away and locked away for so long under unbelievably 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:38.560 inhumane conditions, they have psychological trauma, sometimes they have physical trauma, 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:40.600 and they have to kind of make sense of the 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.520 senseless and the monstrous. And what's really interesting is that 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.480 there's this movement now to help people who've been exonerated. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.840 But then also the original crime victims move through the 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.240 earthquake of exoneration together if they're open to it, by 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.960 connecting with each other. And it's fascinating because when you 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.520 think about it, the exonery comes out starting as a 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.160 perpetrator and then being revealed as a victim. For the 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.440 crime victims, especially the victims who testified believing that they 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:07.960 had gotten the right person, but it was a case 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.000 of mistaken identity or even just fervently believing that they 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.960 were guilty and wanting them to get the death penalty. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.800 They feel culpable, they feel complicit, they feel like perpetrators, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.360 and so the whole system has been flipped around and 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.320 they've each seen each other's perspective. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:28.320 It is a remarkable thing. I was this phenomenon of 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.120 that connection, and that the power that's generated from those 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:38.640 two sort of opposite forces coming together is unlike anything 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:43.400 else I can think of. One of the most important 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:50.520 and incredible examples, of course, is Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton. 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.800 I've interviewed them on the show. Some of the people listening 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:55.440 now may have heard that episode. I hope you have. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.839 If not, you should go back and check it out. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.240 But talk about that case, because I know you've had 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.439 a lot of dealings in interaction with them, and I'm 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:06.920 assuming I'm going to get to them in your book. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.080 I haven't gotten to that chatter yet. 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.199 You're absolutely going to read a lot about them. And 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.360 Jennifer Thompson was a large part of the inspiration because 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.480 she's really at the forefront of this movement to apply 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.840 restorative justice practices in wrongful conviction cases. Because, as she says, 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.320 she and Ronald Cotton were doing restorative justice without even 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.120 realizing that that's what they were doing. And then when 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.200 she saw after their book came out and became a 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.040 best seller, how many people were in their situation, she 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.440 realized how many people could also benefit from doing what 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.280 they had done, which is reconnect with each other. So 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.839 the backstory is that she was brutally raped at knife point, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.720 woken up in the middle of the night by a stranger. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.120 She followed the identification procedures that were in place in 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.040 time at that time in North Carolina. She picked the 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.680 person who she believed was her attacker. She went to court, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.920 she testified, and that person was Ronald Cotton. And then, 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.080 as it turned out, thirteen years later, DNA revealed that 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.720 in fact, her attacker was a man named Bobby Poole. 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.599 And when that news was revealed to her, she was 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.480 completely devastated by it and overcome with shame and guilt 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.559 and remorse, and she and Ronald Cotton had this very 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.160 emotional reunion at a church where she just wept and 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.560 asked him to forgive her, and he said, I forgave 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.520 you a long time ago. And then they formed this bond. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.800 And what's so remarkable about it is not only that 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.000 it really is truly a love relationship, but also that 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.640 their social justice advocates together, and it's really their effort 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.640 that led to North Carolina revising its eyewitness identification laws 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.400 and now they use best practices, so what happened is 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:38.520 unlikely to happen again. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.240 So your book again is called Rectify, and this story 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.040 it plays an important part in the book because it's 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.560 sort of spearheaded this movement, and they now run an 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:55.200 organization that is devoted to putting these pieces back together, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.360 putting these broken lives together to create something beautiful and 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.000 even magic. And in their case, I think what's so 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.920 fascinating and so important to highlight about that particular case 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:11.400 is that she was called the perfect witness. She was sober, 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.720 she was a college student, she was hyper focused on 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.679 identifying him. And so she talks about how she spent 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:26.679 every second of this horrible ordeal trying to memorize any 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.040 detail that could help, because, as she says, if I lived, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.640 I'm quoting her paraphrasing, but if I lived, I was 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.520 going to make sure that he went to prison for 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:38.040 the rest of his life. And of course one of 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.559 the things that motivated her was that she wanted to 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.160 prevent this from happening to any other women, and so 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.199 she identified him in a mugshot, in a lineup in 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.480 court with absolute certainty, and of course she was dead wrong. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.000 And then she has to live with. 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:53.600 Just the. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.920 Awful feeling of knowing that he went out and rap 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.960 dozens of other women because he got away with it, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.679 you know. So, and that's one of the tragic things 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.720 about wrongful conviction, of course, is that when the wrong 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:13.280 person like Ronald Cotton is convicted, the right person is 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.280 left free to go out and perpetrate other horrible crimes 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.720 against innocent victims. So let's talk about the book. Rectify 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.280 Again is the new book, the new release from Lara Baslon, 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:27.320 and we're talking about cases that are highlighted in this 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.240 book and how they have led to this really unlikely 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.160 phenomenon of restorative justice. What's the first other case that 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:39.720 comes to your mind? There's so many of them. 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:44.280 Well, we have Tony here, and he can speak more 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.600 poignantly than I can. But his story is also a 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.080 story of restorative justice in that, as you described, he 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.080 spent twenty five years in prison for a crime he 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:55.760 did not commit. And in this case there was just 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.720 truly egregious police misconduct. And one thing about the case 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.560 that was so interesting is that the victims elderly woman 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.600 Louise Tally. She was part of a law enforcement family, 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.120 and so her great niece, Shannon Coleman, was the daughter 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.600 of one of Philadelphia's first African American police officers. And 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.559 it was Shannon's mother who told her what had happened 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.200 to her great aunt, and the family was very involved 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.400 in law enforcement. The mom was a cop. They followed 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.280 the case really closely. Tony was arrested the next day. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.079 Shannon truly believed he was guilty and took some satisfaction 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:31.120 from the fact that he was given life without the 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.120 possibility of pearl. And then Rolling Stone published this expose 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.480 of just how corrupt and just how unsound this conviction was. 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.640 She read it, she was beset by doubt, and she 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.480 was forced to re examine not only her feelings about him, 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.000 but her feelings about law enforcement and what it meant 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.880 to be an honorable police officer, and all of the 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.360 beliefs she had had about the Philadelphia Police Department, all 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:55.880 of a sudden were just kind of blown up. 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:02.320 Yeah, I mean it's you two spent more than two decades, really, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.959 I mean as opposite forces, right. I mean, Shanney, you've 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.160 talked about how you really hated this man for what 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.520 you thought that he had done to your great aunt. 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.760 Correct. I went by what we were told by the police, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.360 and I believed that he was a bad guy and 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.200 that he had done harmed, had killed my own And. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:31.320 You are not somebody who's unfamiliar with the criminal justice 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.200 system because you come from a law enforcement family. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.400 Yes, my mother was a policewoman for twenty twenty five years. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:43.400 So again, because of that, probably led me to believe 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.520 more in what we were being told that he was guilty. 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:48.480 Right, I mean, that would, if anything, that would deepen 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:55.000 your belief in this, you know, being exactly as it 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.920 was presented to you. And obviously, then Harden, You're resolved 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.520 to see this man spend the rest of his life 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.160 in prison because had he done what he had done. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.760 I mean, no one could blame you for feeling that way. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.720 Everybody feels the way they feel. But the crime was 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:17.760 a gruesome crime, rape and stabbing, horrible murder of an 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.800 elderly woman who you know. I mean, it's just it's unimaginable. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.160 So now let's turn to you, though, Lauren, because how 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.960 did you find out about this case and what made 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.840 you You must have had a strange moment You're like, oh, 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.920 I don't know if I can bring this to my mom, right, 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.000 you know how that must have been difficult. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.120 Yeah, I grew up hearing about it. I guess I 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.960 would always ask her questions about it. And I think 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.360 I saw it first in a tweet and I recognized 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.680 her name. So I went to my mom and I 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:48.840 said like, Hey, isn't this your grand aunt that you 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:53.240 told me about? And she read it and immediately was alarmed, 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.240 Like she said, she had no idea, and she just 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:56.760 flew into defense mode. 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:58.000 How old were you at the time. 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.320 I want to say I was sixteen maybe, So. 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.160 You're sixteen, you're starting to really, you know, come into 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.960 you know, real consciousness of turning from a girl into 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.680 a woman and becoming you know, more aware of everything 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.080 in the world. And what a way to be awoken, right, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:22.640 and so you saw a tweet about the Rolling Stone article, right, 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.120 and what an article that was. I mean, I didn't 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.680 have any connection to the case. Obviously, I've been involved 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.600 in this work for twenty five years. But when I 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.320 read that case, I said, I mean, when I read 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.680 that article, I said, oh, man, I didn't. I mean 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.440 I wanted to run through the streets screaming and waving 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.880 signs and breaking stuff because I was like, this can't 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:48.920 be happening. And again, it's Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi. 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.400 So if it can happen there, it could really happen anywhere. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.880 And so Tony, like for you, you were on the 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.200 opposite side of this, right, you were the I mean, 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.440 there's a lot of victims in this case. I mean 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.440 all of you were victims in a certain way, right, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.119 in different ways. How did you come to be aware 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.960 that Shannon had turned this corner and was now becoming 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.119 a powerful advocate for you, not just forgiving, but actually 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.359 getting out there and like knocking on people's doors, knocking 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:17.080 down doors. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.960 Right, it was insane. I thought my family, I thought 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.199 my family was trying to pump me or something. I 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:29.160 got a visitor, Well, I called home and somebody gave 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.000 me an indirect message and they said, somebody come up 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.200 there to tell you something. And I'm sitting there waiting, 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:39.560 and my cousin visited me one evening and he told 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.960 me about Shannon and the petition and all that, and 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.280 I fell on the floor in the visiting room. I 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.560 couldn't believe it. I mean, I couldn't believe it. You know, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.639 just was a moment. We was waiting for it for 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.960 a long time, just to connect with somebody from that family, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:02.640 because before that we had several appears and everybody from 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.359 my side was there, but nobody ever showed up from 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:09.200 uh miss Talley's side, and you know, we couldn't figure 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.359 out what was going on, did she have any relative left? 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.680 And when Shannon appeared, man, it was it was such 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.000 a fresh up breath there. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.320 Yeah, I mean, what a moment to and what a 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.359 moment to be here with the two of you now. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.520 And of course we're here tonight to celebrate the release 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.040 of Rectify by Lara Basilon, which is a book that 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:36.639 really highlights your case and your and your amazing bond 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.640 that you formed and this beautiful friendship that's blossomed from 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:46.080 this most dark, dark, most unimaginably dark place. And so 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:51.119 I mean, was it hard for you Tony to forgiven? 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:56.840 No? No, absolutely not. You can't blame Shannon or anybody 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.359 from that side of family feeling waity for I go. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.800 For say, maybe some of my family even thought I 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.520 mighta been the perpetrator of the scribe until the facts 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:10.240 came out. Uh, you know, my family is my family. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.680 They supported me. Nobody reached for me. If I call, 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.600 everybody ans uh answered the call if I needed anything. Uh, 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.520 they made sure I had what I needed. I mean, 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:25.479 so you can't blame her. Uh, you can't even imagine this. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.600 This this is some fairy tough stuff going on between us. 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.520 I love her to death. She one of my closest friends. 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.040 Her daughter's my niece, her son is my nephew. Yeah, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.560 I mean, you know, uh, Laura here uh on fall 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.080 or break and and assume she arrived. She let me 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.760 know she's here. I mean, when she's here, I like 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.320 to get them together and you know, my little group 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.400 and we go have dinner and sit down and chat 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.440 and all that. Man. I I love her to death. 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.000 Man A family right there to me and Laura. 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.080 What kind of impact has it's had on you, Like, 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.280 what the how old are you now? And what are 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.280 you doing with your life? 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:04.359 I'm planning on going to law school. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.480 Oh, I was gonna get that so you look like 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:08.000 a lawyer. 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.479 Yes, So it definitely had an impact on that, and 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.679 it made me realize the importance of the work that 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.280 I wanted to get into criminal defense. It was just 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.840 a shiny example of how to you know that the 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:22.840 need to be a good lawyer so things like this 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:23.480 don't happen. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.040 You do realize that had you not actually seen that 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.840 particular tweet and then taken some action which you didn't 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:33.919 have to, it would have been easier for you to 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.480 just be you know, like, Okay, I better keep my 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.480 mom out of this, you know, like and just but 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.000 because you did that, I mean, that has something. I mean, 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.119 it's impossible to know whether it's five percent or fifty percent, 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.120 but it's a part of the reason why Tony's sitting 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.159 here right now. So what a thing for a teenager. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.639 I mean, that's good stuff, you know, and I know 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:57.280 that's something you'll carry with you for the rest of 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:01.320 your life. And it's incredible. And Shannon, what is what 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.239 what's now for you what's going on? I mean, how 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.359 does how has this transformed you? And what does it 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.119 mean for you? And and how's you know, what's what's next? 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:16.280 Well, I'm a big advocate now for the Innocence Project 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.280 and for you know, I read all the stories that 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.840 I can find online and see the other examples of 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:28.280 situations like Tony's. I'm a big advocate for my daughter because, 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.240 you know, helping her with this kind of information because 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.000 I know down the line it's going to help her 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:34.720 in her career. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:36.560 It's just like. 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.080 I guess it's like my hobby now. I mean, I 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.960 would like I went to Harrisburn to help with some 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:50.360 legislation for reimbursing wrongfully convicted people. And I would love 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.200 to do more to help because I just I mean, 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.120 it's like a passion that I have now. 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:58.360 It is it's it's the most but it's the best 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.040