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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 3: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 2: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 2: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with this.

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Speaker 1: How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 3: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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Speaker 3: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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Speaker 3: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 3: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 3: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 2: Our system.

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Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,

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Speaker 1: but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally little trust in humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,

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Speaker 1: I have a very special show planned for you. One

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Speaker 1: of the people I admire most in the innocence movement,

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Speaker 1: Lara Baslon, is here. Lara, first of all, before I

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Speaker 1: introduce you and read off your accomplishments, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me so.

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Speaker 1: Lara is a writer and associate professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of San Francisco Law School, and she's the director of

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Speaker 1: the Criminal, Juvenile Justice, and Racial Justice clinics. And her

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Speaker 1: resume is much much longer than that, having spent a

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Speaker 1: long time as a public defender doing fantastic writing on

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Speaker 1: all different aspects of wrongful conviction and places like Slate

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Speaker 1: and New York Times and so many others. So it's

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Speaker 1: really awesome that you're here. We have a lot to

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Speaker 1: talk about, absolutely, And our other guest is someone who

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Speaker 1: listeners will be familiar with, and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: amazing to catch up with him. Tony Wright is here.

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Speaker 1: And Tony, of course, served twenty five years in prison

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania for a crime it was so obvious that

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Speaker 1: he didn't commit that when the jury finally exonerated him

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Speaker 1: declared him not guilty, it took them all of five

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Speaker 1: minutes to figure it out. And that's right. They deliberated

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Speaker 1: it for five minutes before declaring him totally innocent. So Tony,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, My.

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Speaker 2: Man, pleasure always mind. Man, it's been a long time.

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Speaker 2: I bet it's been overdue. Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Tony, right back, live and in person on wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: And this time you brought a couple of very special

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Speaker 1: guests with you. Do you want to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: introduce them or you want me to do it. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do it, Okay. So you brought two very special

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Speaker 1: guess Shannon Coleman, who is a shining example of everything

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Speaker 1: that restorative justice can and should and will be, and

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Speaker 1: her wonderful daughter Lauren, who actually really started this ball

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Speaker 1: rolling when she read an article and brought it to

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Speaker 1: your mom's attention. And that must have been an amazing

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Speaker 1: moment and an amazing process. So I want to hear

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Speaker 1: about that from both of your perspectives.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having us come in tell

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Speaker 5: our story.

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Speaker 1: So Lara, let's turn to you first. What got you

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Speaker 1: into this work?

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Speaker 4: So part of what I used to do was direct

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Speaker 4: an innocence project a small one at Loyola Law School

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Speaker 4: in LA and I litigated a case in twenty twelve

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Speaker 4: and twenty thirteen. Our client's name, believe it or not,

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Speaker 4: was Cash Register and he had been wrongfully convicted in

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine of a murder that he didn't commit.

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Speaker 4: So thirty four years later we were trying to get

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Speaker 4: him out, were successful in exonerating him. And then after

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Speaker 4: that that experience led me to think, well, what happens

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Speaker 4: to people in the aftermath. So there's so many victims.

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Speaker 4: There's cash there's his mother who waited in their tiny

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Speaker 4: apartment for him to come home. He'd been snatched there

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Speaker 4: by the police and basically kidnapped by the prison industrial

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Speaker 4: complex for thirty four years. There was the fact that

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Speaker 4: they had lost his brother, that his father died soon after.

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Speaker 4: And then there was the victims and the original crime

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Speaker 4: victims and the man's family who died, and what they

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Speaker 4: had to go through realizing that the truth that they'd

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Speaker 4: always been told was not the truth at all.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the truth at all, as is the case.

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Speaker 1: And you know every one of these wrongful convict cases,

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Speaker 1: but some are worse than others. Right, I mean, there

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Speaker 1: are somewhere mistakes were made, but you could say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was circumstantial evidence and it piled up,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the above of the cash Register wasn't

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Speaker 1: one of those cases. And by the way, that is

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Speaker 1: his real name. It's cash with a K. And the

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Speaker 1: fact is with him. It's so dramatic to me because

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Speaker 1: he was in prison for almost twice as long as

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Speaker 1: he had been alive outside of prison.

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Speaker 4: That's right, And just one edition about the name. His

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Speaker 4: name is cash Register with a K. Interestingly, the other

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Speaker 4: brother was named Norman. So the family naming system was

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Speaker 4: just kind of the whole spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Somebody had a sense of humor. I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. I mean, I don't know what I would name.

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Speaker 1: My last name was Register. I'm trying to think what

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Speaker 1: I would name my kids. But there's a funny mind

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Speaker 1: in there somewhere. I'll come up with it later. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: So you got cash out there, cash out there goes

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Speaker 1: another fun But anyway, and we know I know obviously

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Speaker 1: firsthand how incredible that feels. It's addictive, isn't it.

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Speaker 6: Yes, it is.

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Speaker 4: It's like a drug. There's no feeling in the world

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Speaker 4: like having a judge find your client innocent and having

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Speaker 4: them walk out of prison after having been there for decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's remarkable. I mean it's interesting because people who

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Speaker 1: know me and know I have this sort of string

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Speaker 1: double life as a record executive and criminal justice reformer.

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Speaker 1: You know, they'll ask me, you know, what is it

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Speaker 1: about this? Why am I so devoted spending so much time?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is very simple. Years from now or

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Speaker 1: even now, no one will care who signed Katy Perry, Like,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. No one remembers who signed the Beatles,

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Speaker 1: for fuck's sakes, right, So but after I'm gone, you

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Speaker 1: know the you know, the lasting impact of the people,

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Speaker 1: or after we're going, I should say, of the people

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Speaker 1: whose lives we've been able to positively affect, who were

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Speaker 1: stuck in the ultimate nightmare really as as hopeless as

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Speaker 1: they could be. That's the good stuff, right, and that's

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Speaker 1: the stuff that really means something. So anyway, it's good

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Speaker 1: to be in this and it's good to be in

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Speaker 1: it with you. And meanwhile, very exciting is a new

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Speaker 1: development in your life, which is a book. You've got

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Speaker 1: a book, a real hardcover book. I'm holding it in

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Speaker 1: my hands, it feels good, it looks great. It's from

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Speaker 1: Beacon Pressed. It's called Rectify the Power of Restorative Justice

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Speaker 1: after Wrongful Conviction And I'm reading it now and I'm hooked.

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Speaker 1: So tell me the inspiration behind this book.

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Speaker 4: How did you come to So the inspiration really did

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Speaker 4: grow out of Cash's case, because, as you say, it's

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Speaker 4: so important to be able to really help save someone's life,

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Speaker 4: and then afterwards, what you really want for them is

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Speaker 4: for them to have a good life. And what does

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Speaker 4: that mean? Because, as you know, when people have been

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Speaker 4: sent away and locked away for so long under unbelievably

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Speaker 4: inhumane conditions, they have psychological trauma, sometimes they have physical trauma,

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Speaker 4: and they have to kind of make sense of the

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Speaker 4: senseless and the monstrous. And what's really interesting is that

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Speaker 4: there's this movement now to help people who've been exonerated.

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Speaker 4: But then also the original crime victims move through the

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Speaker 4: earthquake of exoneration together if they're open to it, by

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Speaker 4: connecting with each other. And it's fascinating because when you

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Speaker 4: think about it, the exonery comes out starting as a

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Speaker 4: perpetrator and then being revealed as a victim. For the

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Speaker 4: crime victims, especially the victims who testified believing that they

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Speaker 4: had gotten the right person, but it was a case

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Speaker 4: of mistaken identity or even just fervently believing that they

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Speaker 4: were guilty and wanting them to get the death penalty.

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Speaker 4: They feel culpable, they feel complicit, they feel like perpetrators,

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Speaker 4: and so the whole system has been flipped around and

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Speaker 4: they've each seen each other's perspective.

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Speaker 1: It is a remarkable thing. I was this phenomenon of

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Speaker 1: that connection, and that the power that's generated from those

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Speaker 1: two sort of opposite forces coming together is unlike anything

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Speaker 1: else I can think of. One of the most important

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Speaker 1: and incredible examples, of course, is Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton.

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed them on the show. Some of the people listening

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Speaker 1: now may have heard that episode. I hope you have.

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Speaker 1: If not, you should go back and check it out.

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Speaker 1: But talk about that case, because I know you've had

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Speaker 1: a lot of dealings in interaction with them, and I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming I'm going to get to them in your book.

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Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to that chatter yet.

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Speaker 4: You're absolutely going to read a lot about them. And

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Speaker 4: Jennifer Thompson was a large part of the inspiration because

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Speaker 4: she's really at the forefront of this movement to apply

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Speaker 4: restorative justice practices in wrongful conviction cases. Because, as she says,

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Speaker 4: she and Ronald Cotton were doing restorative justice without even

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Speaker 4: realizing that that's what they were doing. And then when

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Speaker 4: she saw after their book came out and became a

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Speaker 4: best seller, how many people were in their situation, she

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Speaker 4: realized how many people could also benefit from doing what

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Speaker 4: they had done, which is reconnect with each other. So

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Speaker 4: the backstory is that she was brutally raped at knife point,

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Speaker 4: woken up in the middle of the night by a stranger.

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Speaker 4: She followed the identification procedures that were in place in

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Speaker 4: time at that time in North Carolina. She picked the

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Speaker 4: person who she believed was her attacker. She went to court,

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Speaker 4: she testified, and that person was Ronald Cotton. And then,

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Speaker 4: as it turned out, thirteen years later, DNA revealed that

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Speaker 4: in fact, her attacker was a man named Bobby Poole.

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Speaker 4: And when that news was revealed to her, she was

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Speaker 4: completely devastated by it and overcome with shame and guilt

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Speaker 4: and remorse, and she and Ronald Cotton had this very

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Speaker 4: emotional reunion at a church where she just wept and

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Speaker 4: asked him to forgive her, and he said, I forgave

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Speaker 4: you a long time ago. And then they formed this bond.

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Speaker 4: And what's so remarkable about it is not only that

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Speaker 4: it really is truly a love relationship, but also that

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Speaker 4: their social justice advocates together, and it's really their effort

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Speaker 4: that led to North Carolina revising its eyewitness identification laws

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Speaker 4: and now they use best practices, so what happened is

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Speaker 4: unlikely to happen again.

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Speaker 1: So your book again is called Rectify, and this story

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Speaker 1: it plays an important part in the book because it's

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Speaker 1: sort of spearheaded this movement, and they now run an

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Speaker 1: organization that is devoted to putting these pieces back together,

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Speaker 1: putting these broken lives together to create something beautiful and

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Speaker 1: even magic. And in their case, I think what's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating and so important to highlight about that particular case

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Speaker 1: is that she was called the perfect witness. She was sober,

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Speaker 1: she was a college student, she was hyper focused on

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Speaker 1: identifying him. And so she talks about how she spent

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Speaker 1: every second of this horrible ordeal trying to memorize any

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Speaker 1: detail that could help, because, as she says, if I lived,

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Speaker 1: I'm quoting her paraphrasing, but if I lived, I was

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Speaker 1: going to make sure that he went to prison for

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Speaker 1: the rest of his life. And of course one of

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Speaker 1: the things that motivated her was that she wanted to

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Speaker 1: prevent this from happening to any other women, and so

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Speaker 1: she identified him in a mugshot, in a lineup in

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Speaker 1: court with absolute certainty, and of course she was dead wrong.

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Speaker 1: And then she has to live with.

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Speaker 2: Just the.

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Speaker 1: Awful feeling of knowing that he went out and rap

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Speaker 1: dozens of other women because he got away with it,

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Speaker 1: you know. So, and that's one of the tragic things

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Speaker 1: about wrongful conviction, of course, is that when the wrong

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Speaker 1: person like Ronald Cotton is convicted, the right person is

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Speaker 1: left free to go out and perpetrate other horrible crimes

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Speaker 1: against innocent victims. So let's talk about the book. Rectify

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Speaker 1: Again is the new book, the new release from Lara Baslon,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about cases that are highlighted in this

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Speaker 1: book and how they have led to this really unlikely

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Speaker 1: phenomenon of restorative justice. What's the first other case that

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Speaker 1: comes to your mind? There's so many of them.

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Speaker 4: Well, we have Tony here, and he can speak more

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Speaker 4: poignantly than I can. But his story is also a

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Speaker 4: story of restorative justice in that, as you described, he

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Speaker 4: spent twenty five years in prison for a crime he

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Speaker 4: did not commit. And in this case there was just

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Speaker 4: truly egregious police misconduct. And one thing about the case

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Speaker 4: that was so interesting is that the victims elderly woman

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Speaker 4: Louise Tally. She was part of a law enforcement family,

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Speaker 4: and so her great niece, Shannon Coleman, was the daughter

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Speaker 4: of one of Philadelphia's first African American police officers. And

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Speaker 4: it was Shannon's mother who told her what had happened

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Speaker 4: to her great aunt, and the family was very involved

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Speaker 4: in law enforcement. The mom was a cop. They followed

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Speaker 4: the case really closely. Tony was arrested the next day.

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Speaker 4: Shannon truly believed he was guilty and took some satisfaction

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Speaker 4: from the fact that he was given life without the

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Speaker 4: possibility of pearl. And then Rolling Stone published this expose

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Speaker 4: of just how corrupt and just how unsound this conviction was.

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Speaker 4: She read it, she was beset by doubt, and she

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Speaker 4: was forced to re examine not only her feelings about him,

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Speaker 4: but her feelings about law enforcement and what it meant

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Speaker 4: to be an honorable police officer, and all of the

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Speaker 4: beliefs she had had about the Philadelphia Police Department, all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden were just kind of blown up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's you two spent more than two decades, really,

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Speaker 1: I mean as opposite forces, right. I mean, Shanney, you've

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Speaker 1: talked about how you really hated this man for what

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Speaker 1: you thought that he had done to your great aunt.

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Speaker 5: Correct. I went by what we were told by the police,

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Speaker 5: and I believed that he was a bad guy and

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Speaker 5: that he had done harmed, had killed my own And.

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Speaker 1: You are not somebody who's unfamiliar with the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system because you come from a law enforcement family.

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Speaker 5: Yes, my mother was a policewoman for twenty twenty five years.

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Speaker 5: So again, because of that, probably led me to believe

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Speaker 5: more in what we were being told that he was guilty.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, that would, if anything, that would deepen

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Speaker 1: your belief in this, you know, being exactly as it

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Speaker 1: was presented to you. And obviously, then Harden, You're resolved

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Speaker 1: to see this man spend the rest of his life

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Speaker 1: in prison because had he done what he had done.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no one could blame you for feeling that way.

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Speaker 1: Everybody feels the way they feel. But the crime was

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Speaker 1: a gruesome crime, rape and stabbing, horrible murder of an

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Speaker 1: elderly woman who you know. I mean, it's just it's unimaginable.

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Speaker 1: So now let's turn to you, though, Lauren, because how

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Speaker 1: did you find out about this case and what made

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Speaker 1: you You must have had a strange moment You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can bring this to my mom, right,

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Speaker 1: you know how that must have been difficult.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I grew up hearing about it. I guess I

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Speaker 6: would always ask her questions about it. And I think

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Speaker 6: I saw it first in a tweet and I recognized

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Speaker 6: her name. So I went to my mom and I

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Speaker 6: said like, Hey, isn't this your grand aunt that you

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Speaker 6: told me about? And she read it and immediately was alarmed,

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Speaker 6: Like she said, she had no idea, and she just

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Speaker 6: flew into defense mode.

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Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.

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Speaker 6: I want to say I was sixteen maybe, So.

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Speaker 1: You're sixteen, you're starting to really, you know, come into

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Speaker 1: you know, real consciousness of turning from a girl into

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Speaker 1: a woman and becoming you know, more aware of everything

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Speaker 1: in the world. And what a way to be awoken, right,

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Speaker 1: and so you saw a tweet about the Rolling Stone article, right,

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Speaker 1: and what an article that was. I mean, I didn't

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Speaker 1: have any connection to the case. Obviously, I've been involved

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Speaker 1: in this work for twenty five years. But when I

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Speaker 1: read that case, I said, I mean, when I read

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Speaker 1: that article, I said, oh, man, I didn't. I mean

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Speaker 1: I wanted to run through the streets screaming and waving

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Speaker 1: signs and breaking stuff because I was like, this can't

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Speaker 1: be happening. And again, it's Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: So if it can happen there, it could really happen anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And so Tony, like for you, you were on the

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Speaker 1: opposite side of this, right, you were the I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of victims in this case. I mean

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Speaker 1: all of you were victims in a certain way, right,

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Speaker 1: in different ways. How did you come to be aware

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Speaker 1: that Shannon had turned this corner and was now becoming

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Speaker 1: a powerful advocate for you, not just forgiving, but actually

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Speaker 1: getting out there and like knocking on people's doors, knocking

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Speaker 1: down doors.

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Speaker 2: Right, it was insane. I thought my family, I thought

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Speaker 2: my family was trying to pump me or something. I

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Speaker 2: got a visitor, Well, I called home and somebody gave

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Speaker 2: me an indirect message and they said, somebody come up

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Speaker 2: there to tell you something. And I'm sitting there waiting,

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Speaker 2: and my cousin visited me one evening and he told

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Speaker 2: me about Shannon and the petition and all that, and

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Speaker 2: I fell on the floor in the visiting room. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. I mean, I couldn't believe it. You know,

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Speaker 2: just was a moment. We was waiting for it for

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Speaker 2: a long time, just to connect with somebody from that family,

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Speaker 2: because before that we had several appears and everybody from

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Speaker 2: my side was there, but nobody ever showed up from

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Speaker 2: uh miss Talley's side, and you know, we couldn't figure

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Speaker 2: out what was going on, did she have any relative left?

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Speaker 2: And when Shannon appeared, man, it was it was such

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Speaker 2: a fresh up breath there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what a moment to and what a

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Speaker 1: moment to be here with the two of you now.

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Speaker 1: And of course we're here tonight to celebrate the release

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Speaker 1: of Rectify by Lara Basilon, which is a book that

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Speaker 1: really highlights your case and your and your amazing bond

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Speaker 1: that you formed and this beautiful friendship that's blossomed from

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Speaker 1: this most dark, dark, most unimaginably dark place. And so

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Speaker 1: I mean, was it hard for you Tony to forgiven?

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Speaker 2: No? No, absolutely not. You can't blame Shannon or anybody

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Speaker 2: from that side of family feeling waity for I go.

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Speaker 2: For say, maybe some of my family even thought I

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Speaker 2: mighta been the perpetrator of the scribe until the facts

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Speaker 2: came out. Uh, you know, my family is my family.

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Speaker 2: They supported me. Nobody reached for me. If I call,

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Speaker 2: everybody ans uh answered the call if I needed anything. Uh,

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Speaker 2: they made sure I had what I needed. I mean,

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Speaker 2: so you can't blame her. Uh, you can't even imagine this.

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Speaker 2: This this is some fairy tough stuff going on between us.

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Speaker 2: I love her to death. She one of my closest friends.

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Speaker 2: Her daughter's my niece, her son is my nephew. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, uh, Laura here uh on fall

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Speaker 2: or break and and assume she arrived. She let me

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Speaker 2: know she's here. I mean, when she's here, I like

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Speaker 2: to get them together and you know, my little group

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Speaker 2: and we go have dinner and sit down and chat

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Speaker 2: and all that. Man. I I love her to death.

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Speaker 2: Man A family right there to me and Laura.

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Speaker 1: What kind of impact has it's had on you, Like,

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Speaker 1: what the how old are you now? And what are

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Speaker 1: you doing with your life?

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Speaker 6: I'm planning on going to law school.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I was gonna get that so you look like

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Speaker 1: a lawyer.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So it definitely had an impact on that, and

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Speaker 6: it made me realize the importance of the work that

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Speaker 6: I wanted to get into criminal defense. It was just

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Speaker 6: a shiny example of how to you know that the

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Speaker 6: need to be a good lawyer so things like this

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Speaker 6: don't happen.

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Speaker 1: You do realize that had you not actually seen that

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Speaker 1: particular tweet and then taken some action which you didn't

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Speaker 1: have to, it would have been easier for you to

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Speaker 1: just be you know, like, Okay, I better keep my

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Speaker 1: mom out of this, you know, like and just but

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Speaker 1: because you did that, I mean, that has something. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's impossible to know whether it's five percent or fifty percent,

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Speaker 1: but it's a part of the reason why Tony's sitting

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Speaker 1: here right now. So what a thing for a teenager.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's good stuff, you know, and I know

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Speaker 1: that's something you'll carry with you for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life. And it's incredible. And Shannon, what is what

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Speaker 1: what's now for you what's going on? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: does how has this transformed you? And what does it

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Speaker 1: mean for you? And and how's you know, what's what's next?

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm a big advocate now for the Innocence Project

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Speaker 5: and for you know, I read all the stories that

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Speaker 5: I can find online and see the other examples of

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Speaker 5: situations like Tony's. I'm a big advocate for my daughter because,

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Speaker 5: you know, helping her with this kind of information because

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Speaker 5: I know down the line it's going to help her

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Speaker 5: in her career.

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Speaker 6: It's just like.

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Speaker 5: I guess it's like my hobby now. I mean, I

396
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Speaker 5: would like I went to Harrisburn to help with some

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Speaker 5: legislation for reimbursing wrongfully convicted people. And I would love

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Speaker 5: to do more to help because I just I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's like a passion that I have now.

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Speaker 1: It is it's it's the most but it's the best

401
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Speaker 1: addiction that you can have. I mean, helping other people

402
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Speaker 1: who need the help as much as anybody could ever

403
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Speaker 1: need help. And and it means so much. And you

404
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: are really a great advocate and at a beautiful spirit

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Speaker 1: for doing what you do. So Tony, what what else

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Speaker 1: can you share with us? I mean how's you were

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Speaker 1: on the show. I mean that must have been about

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Speaker 1: a year ago, I guess, and you would give such

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Speaker 1: a powerful presentation talking about all There's certain things I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget. I mean, we're like seventy episodes into the

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction now and so many stories, but I'll never

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Speaker 1: forget certain things that you said during that amazing episode

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Speaker 1: that we tape together. What's what I mean, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a big development in your life now too, right.

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Speaker 2: Just just my whole transition. I mean, you know, people

416
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Speaker 2: seem a maze of everything I got going on in

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Speaker 2: how I'm manure. I mean, you've got a million people

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Speaker 2: hold in my hands like a baby every step I take. Man,

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Speaker 2: I never do nothing along so much help. I mean,

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Speaker 2: and and and you know I want I wanna heart

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Speaker 2: back on you know one thing, uh uh. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think this whole situation really changed sharing in life.

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Speaker 2: You gave her a different perspective on you know, just

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Speaker 2: a judicial system as a whole. And and and I

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Speaker 2: witnessed the passion she has for other men, and and

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Speaker 2: and and that may be in the situation, and and

427
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Speaker 2: and learn you know, the apple don't fall far from

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Speaker 2: the tree. You know what I mean. You know she's

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Speaker 2: her mother's daughter one hundred percent. I guarantee you that

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Speaker 2: so smart, so brilliant. Man, I mean, I love him

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Speaker 2: the death.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: It's my family right there.

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Speaker 6: Man.

435
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 2: I can never yeah, I mean, I uh, that's an understatement.

436
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: I mean I can never overstate that.

437
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 6: Man.

438
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: I want the world and note you know what I mean,

439
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: Like this is some fairy tale stuff going on here,

440
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: and it's another member of this family and that's her son,

441
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: Devin Coleman. So I want to mention him. Devin a

442
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: shout out to me. I love you, Shan and Lauren.

443
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 5: To me, it was so important to do the right

444
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 5: thing because I have a son, Blackmail and two nephews

445
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 5: that I raised, and I could only think every time

446
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 5: I thought about what Tony went through and was going through,

447
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 5: was that could have been one of them? And just

448
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 5: I just never forget that no matter, you know, if

449
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 5: I'm trying to help somebody or when I'm reading the

450
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 5: other stories, I always place them, my kids in that spot.

451
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 6: And that's not good point.

452
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: Brian. Two things for me. The first was I wanted

453
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: Miss Tyley's family to know that Anthony Wright absolutely had

454
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the crime that was perpetrated against

455
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: they loved one, my family. I could have died after that.

456
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: I didn't even care. I just wanted to clear my

457
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: name and I wanted to clear those people conscious that

458
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 2: I wasn't a person that committed this crime because they

459
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: loved one except for me. I was good.

460
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's really amazing read I read about

461
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: this exact situation in your book, and she describes very

462
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: eloquently and poigtantly the gamut of emotions that ran through

463
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: her as this horrible realization took hold. And I can't

464
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: even begin to imagine what that must be like. But

465
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 1: the fact is that she she made not only made

466
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: peace with it and and turned her whole perspective around

467
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: and became a powerful advocate for Tony. Like I mean,

468
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: she went to great lengths to try to get Tony

469
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: out after spending almost a quarter of a century hating him,

470
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: wishing terrible things upon him. And again I'm not judging

471
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: her for that. And then she, upon being presented with evidence,

472
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: she didn't like shut it down or try to ignore it.

473
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: She just went in the complete opposite direction and tried

474
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: to fix it. And now, of course she's come full

475
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: circle to the point that she is now a wonderful

476
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: spokesperson for this restorative justice movement and and her you know,

477
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: her story, as I said, is captured in your book Rectify,

478
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: which is so it's so you know, just I don't know,

479
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: it's hard to read, but it's wonderful to read that.

480
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: You know, that that thing that what are having to

481
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: describe that ordeal that she went through.

482
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 4: She's an amazing woman because, as you say, she did

483
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: everything she could. She went to her church, she started

484
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 4: writing her city council person, she asked friends she knew

485
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 4: who had some kind of influence, and then she went

486
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 4: directly to the DA's office repeatedly, and she had a

487
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 4: meeting with the head of the homicide unit, and she said,

488
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 4: this is an abomination. You can't retry him. Because, of course,

489
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 4: the other part of Anthony Write's story is that once

490
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 4: the DNA evidence came back and pointed to the real perpetrator,

491
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 4: the DA decided that they were going to retry Tony

492
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 4: under a different theory of the case. And that was

493
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 4: what Shannon was trying to do everything she could to

494
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 4: get stopped. When she met with this head of the

495
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 4: homicide unit. She begged this woman to drop the prosecution.

496
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 4: And there's this email that Shannon writes afterwards where she says,

497
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,239
Speaker 4: you told me that you have doubt and that this

498
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 4: is for the jury to sort out. But that's not

499
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 4: your ethical obligation. Your obligation it's to see that justice

500
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 4: is done and this is a travesty. And then she

501
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: started a change dot org petition. She attended as much

502
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 4: of the trial as she could, and she said that

503
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 4: when Tony's lawyer texted to say that, as you say,

504
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: he's been acquitted in five minutes, she literally screamed with relief,

505
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 4: and then immediately started a new change dot org petition

506
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 4: to get him money to help out after he was

507
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 4: let go.

508
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: Right, And that's a different you know, I think when

509
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: some people think of restorative justice, you know, their mind

510
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: will turn to the question that I get asked probably

511
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: more frequently than any other, as I'm out there proselytizing

512
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: about these you know, innocence cases and the Incence Project

513
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: and the work that you do and they do, and

514
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: so many other good people are involved in. I would

515
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: say the most common thing that comes up is for

516
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: people they get all wide eyed and they go, well,

517
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: they get paid when they get out, right, Like tell

518
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: me they you know. They also want to know whether

519
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: you know there's any consequence of the prosecutor's conduct. That's

520
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: the second most asked question. But the first one is

521
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: people want to know that these men and women who've

522
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: been through this Kafka esque ordeal get compensated. And I

523
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: think most people think, yeah, you walk out, you get

524
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: a check. But that's not the way it is.

525
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: No, it's not. I think people would be disappointed to

526
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 4: both answers to those questions. Police and prosecutors are hardly

527
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: ever called to account, and even when they are, what

528
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 4: happens to them is fairly minor compared to the damage

529
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 4: that they've inflicted on other people, including the original crime

530
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: victims and the exoneries. So with respect to consequence, there

531
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 4: isn't often a consequence. And then compensation is all over

532
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 4: the place. It depends on your state. So for example,

533
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 4: in Pennsylvania, where Tony was wrongfully convicted, you don't get

534
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: a dime. There is no statute to compensate you. If

535
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 4: you want to be compensated, you have to sue the state,

536
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 4: and you have to sue alleging violations of your federal

537
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: civil rights and hope that your case is powerful enough

538
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 4: that you can prevail. So eventually that is how Tony

539
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: ended up getting a settlement. But it's very hard to do,

540
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 4: it's arduous. And then in other states the compensation is capped,

541
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 4: so you'll do twenty years and they'll give you twenty

542
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. Now, there's no amount of money that can

543
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 4: make up for twenty years, but twenty thousand dollars does

544
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 4: not even come close. And I think this all points

545
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: to this other idea that we have, which is we

546
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 4: see these stories of exoneration, and we see the exonery

547
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: in the news with his lawyer, with his mother thanking God,

548
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 4: giving thanks, and we think it's going to be a

549
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 4: happily ever after story. They're going to get compensated, he'll

550
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 4: get millions of dollars, and the police officers they'll be

551
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 4: put in prison. And so often what wrongful conviction stories

552
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 4: really are. They're not happy endings to fairy tales. They're

553
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 4: more like earthquakes. And you were talking before about putting

554
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 4: the pieces back together, and that's really what rectifies about.

555
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 4: It's about who's left in the rubble and how they

556
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 4: sort through it and find a way collaboratively to make

557
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 4: their own justice, a kind of justice that was denied

558
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: to them by the system.

559
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really nuts. I mean, I call it the

560
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: second punishment, and it really would be better to put

561
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: it as the second punishments because there's so many problems

562
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: and challenges that these these innocent men and women face

563
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: when they get out, right, which are again not of

564
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: their doing, but they did. The problems go to employment.

565
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard when your resume has a twenty

566
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: something year hole in it, right, And even though as

567
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: Doug Delosa, who's you know, a friend and a hero

568
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: of mine, and Zanneri from New Orleans who's in Angola

569
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: for fourteen years, he says, you know, they go to

570
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: job interviews and they'd say, I understand, but they don't understand,

571
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: and they'd prefer to have somebody in generally speaking, who

572
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, who wasn't incarse, right, even though you have

573
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: the newspaper article it says you're innocent or whatever it

574
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: might be. And of course the challenges with family, the

575
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: challenges with you know, yesterday I had dinner with Valentino Dixon,

576
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: who just got out after twenty seven years I was

577
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: teaching him how to do Instagram right. But it's a process.

578
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot not that Instagram is the

579
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: most important thing, but I'm just saying, well, kind of

580
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 1: it is anyway. But I'm just saying, like, it's you know,

581
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: these are people who have never held the cell phone.

582
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: They don't have access in many cases to their identification.

583
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: And the you know, the most to me obvious and

584
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: probably disturbing aspect of the second punishment is exactly what

585
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: you talked about. New Hampshire's the state where you can

586
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: only get twenty thousand. Wisconsin you can only get twenty

587
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: five thousand. There are some states where you can't get anything.

588
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: There's still nineteen states with no compensation statutes, and there's

589
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: some that have compensation statutes. I think it's Montana, but

590
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: you can only get education credits and stuff like that.

591
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: You don't actually get any cash, even in California, which

592
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: seems counterintuitive because California. We like to think of California

593
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: as like you know, a you know, an oasis of

594
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: sanity in a country of insanity. But they're the you know,

595
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: the hoops you have to jump through to get any

596
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: sort of compensation. You basically have to reprove your inn

597
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that a court has already

598
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: ruled you innocent. It's like, it's not.

599
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. I just spent some time with Bill Richards,

600
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 4: who is wrongfully convicted in California and spent I think

601
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: twenty six years in prison, and even though he has

602
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 4: a finding of innocence, it's not good enough and he

603
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: has to go through, as you say, this arduous process

604
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 4: in front of a compensation board that is staffed by prosecutors,

605
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 4: and they have to approve him for compensation. And if

606
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: that doesn't work, he then has to appeal. And that

607
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: happens to so many exoneries in California. It's just incredibly

608
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 4: difficult for them under the statute the way it's written

609
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 4: and enforced, to get any money.

610
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 1: Right, So they have to jump through these hoops. They

611
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: need help, They need legal help if they're lucky enough

612
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: to find lawyers who want to spend our hundreds of

613
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: hours or more working towards this elusive goal of getting compensation,

614
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: which may not even really be that much at the end,

615
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's and then they have to take time

616
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: out of their lives as well to go basically retry

617
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: a case that they would probably love to forget as

618
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: best they could. It's really busy, are but it's you know, look,

619
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: it's one of the many, many things I'm working on

620
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: that particular situation in California. I think we are going

621
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: to be able to make some progress. Hopefully Gavin Newsom

622
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: will be the next governor. If he is, you know,

623
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: he's very forward thinking and very passionate about criminal justice reform,

624
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: so I believe that he will take that up. I hope,

625
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: I hope he's listening. And if you could, I mean,

626
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: after having spent your entire adult life in the criminal

627
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: justice system in some of the grungiest places, in some

628
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: of the you know, in some of the most hopeless situations,

629
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: and with some amazing victories to your name, and having

630
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: raised incredible amounts of awareness through your advocacy and your journalism,

631
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: if you could make, if you could wave a magic

632
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: wand and make let's just call it three changes, what

633
00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: would they be?

634
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 4: One change I would make is I would mandate compensation

635
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 4: for every exonery in every state in this country, so

636
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 4: that it's not an accident of geography, whether or not

637
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 4: you get a million dollars or zero cents. So that

638
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 4: would certainly be one reform, because we have a responsibility

639
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: as citizens of this country to make these injustices right

640
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 4: and to make people as whole as we can. Another

641
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 4: reform that I would make is that I would encourage,

642
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 4: and maybe encourage as too delicate a word, I would

643
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 4: strongly enforce state bar rules because one way to stop,

644
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 4: for example, prosecutoroll misconduct and also bad defense luring, which

645
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 4: is another cause of wrongful convictions from happening, is for

646
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 4: there to be consequences. And you and I talked about

647
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 4: the fact that there rarely are, and that is because

648
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 4: most state bars don't pursue these cases. Even when there

649
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 4: are published opinions showing that there was misconduct, showing there

650
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 4: was an effective assistance of counsel, there aren't any consequences.

651
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 4: And I think it is so important for that to happen,

652
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: and it's so important to bring a tension to the

653
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 4: fact that the prosecutor's job isn't to just tack as

654
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: many skins up against the wall as possible. It's to

655
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 4: do justice, and sometimes that means admitting a mistake and

656
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 4: stepping back and conceding error and dropping a case. We

657
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 4: have this mindset in this country that we need to

658
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: be tough on crime, and that to win elections as

659
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 4: prosecutors you have to talk about your conviction rate. I

660
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 4: think that's starting to change, and we've had this small

661
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 4: wave of progressive reformers. But to really hammer that message home,

662
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 4: you not only need to elect reformers, you need to

663
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 4: expose people who are not following the rules, who are cheating,

664
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 4: and who are stealing people's lives. So that's certainly another

665
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 4: reform that I think we very badly need. And finally,

666
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: what I would say is that I think that as

667
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 4: citizens again and these states, we are responsible to for

668
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 4: caring for the victims of wrongful conviction. And one of

669
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 4: the things about the book that was so powerful for me, because,

670
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,479
Speaker 4: as you say, my role in the system was really

671
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 4: to advocate for defendants, for people who were accused, and

672
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 4: I never spent a lot of time thinking about the victims.

673
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 4: I really couldn't afford to it. It was distracting and

674
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 4: sort of painful to live in their anguish, and what

675
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 4: happens to them after this is exposed is really that

676
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 4: they're shunted aside we owe them more than that. We

677
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 4: owe them services, We owe them therapy, we owe them outreach,

678
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 4: we owe them recognition, and so often what they feel

679
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: is shunted, aside and ignored.

680
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: Here's one for you, looking back over your career and

681
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: your life. As I said in Criminal Justice Advocacy, Reform,

682
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: Legal Work, et cetera, can you think of the best

683
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: and the worst moments that you've had, the best one

684
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: and the worst one.

685
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 4: I'll go with the worst first, because I want to

686
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 4: end on a positive note. The worst moment of my

687
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 4: career was when I had a client sentenced to life,

688
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: and court life means life because there is no parole.

689
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 4: They abolished it, and we had tried the case once

690
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: and the jury had hung, and then we tried the

691
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 4: case a second time and the jury convicted, and then

692
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 4: we had a third trial actually about the punishment, because

693
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 4: there was a very complicated question of statutory interpretation involved

694
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 4: in that. And I broke down and sobbed because my

695
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 4: client was in his early forties, and even given the

696
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 4: conviction and his record, it just seemed colossally unfair that

697
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 4: we were going to put him in a cage for

698
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 4: the rest of his life. And I felt that I

699
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: had been part of that process. Even though I had

700
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 4: tried as hard as I could to stop that from happening,

701
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 4: I had not been able to stop that from happening,

702
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 4: and the train had come and run him down. That

703
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 4: was the worst moment of my legal career, and I

704
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 4: revisit it. The best moment was when Catherine made her

705
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 4: the superior court judge in Cash's case made the decision

706
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 4: finding him innocent. And I turned around and Cash's mom

707
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 4: was just she had this expression on her face of

708
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: just absolute amazement, and she said, thank you Jesus, and

709
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 4: she wept, and I just felt this overwhelming sense of

710
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 4: relief because I had been a part of giving her

711
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 4: her son back, and it was just the most amazing

712
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 4: feeling in the world to realize that she had lived

713
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 4: for thirty four years without him. She was seventy six

714
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 4: years old, and she was alive to see him come home.

715
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the good stuff, and it is. It is good.

716
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: It's as good as it gets. What's the plan? So

717
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: Rectify is out now. People can get it on Amazon, Barnesandoble,

718
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: dot com, anywhere books are sold. What's next for you?

719
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 4: So I'm going to do a lot of traveling and

720
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 4: speaking related to the book, which I'm very excited about.

721
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: And part of what's so awesome is that I get

722
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 4: to go and be with some of the people who

723
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 4: are in the book, some friends of yours. I get

724
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 4: to go to New Orleans and spend time with Jerro

725
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 4: Morgan and Orion's and I get to go to various

726
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 4: other places Virginia and see Thomas Hainsworth and Janet Burke.

727
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 4: So for me, just being able to travel around the

728
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 4: country and reconnect with the people that I form these

729
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: relationships with and talk about the book with them present

730
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 4: is incredibly powerful and rewarding. So that's what the next

731
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 4: couple of months, I think, and maybe longer will look like.

732
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: My hope is that it will build a following and

733
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 4: that people will connect with the message, and that the

734
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: message of restorative justice will catch hold and not be

735
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 4: such an alien concept. I mean, some people listening to

736
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: your show, they might not even know what restorative justice is.

737
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 4: They might be thinking, what are the two of them

738
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 4: talking about, And so my hope is that it becomes

739
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 4: as common a ward in our lexicon as criminal justice.

740
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: Right, it's actually a sort of a I mean, you know,

741
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm not a religious person, but it's sort of a

742
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: Christian concept, right, It's a whole like forgiving, and in

743
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: this case, you're forgiving for something that never happened in

744
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: the first place. But it's yeah, it's it's got layers

745
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: to it, you know, it does.

746
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 4: And it's interesting. It has roots in the Native American community.

747
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: It's also practiced in South Africa, most famously with the

748
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 4: Truth and Reconciliation Commission after the end of apartheid. But

749
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 4: the concept is essentially, we don't believe in banishing offenders

750
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 4: from our community. We believe in renitting our community and

751
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 4: bringing them back. So we the criminal justice system in

752
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: the United States, we ask what crime was committed, who

753
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: committed it, and what punishment is deserved. Restorative justice takes

754
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,959
Speaker 4: those questions and it radically reframes them to ask who

755
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 4: is harmed, what are their needs, and who is best

756
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 4: situated to meet those needs. And when you put that

757
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 4: in the concept of an exoneration, you see all this

758
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 4: need from the original crime victims, from the exoneries, from

759
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 4: their respective families, even from the jurors. There are jurors

760
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 4: who suffer your trauma when they realized they voted to

761
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 4: convict based on evidence that turned out to be false,

762
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 4: based on lies that they were told by witnesses or

763
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 4: other state actors. And so there's so much harm and

764
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: there's so much repairing to be done that were stored

765
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 4: of justice. Bringing all these harmed actors together to work

766
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 4: through a mutual trauma has turned out to be a

767
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: way for people to kind of make sense of something

768
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 4: very senseless and soul destroying.

769
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: And let's talk about jurors because one of the things

770
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: I harp on on the show is the critical importance

771
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: of people showing up for jury duty. Good people, the

772
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: type of people that listen to this show, inform people,

773
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: people who are awoke. It's an imposition. We all know that,

774
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: But in your view, how important is it for people

775
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: to show up for jury duty and what should they

776
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: be looking out for? Because the people's faces, the people

777
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: that go to jury duty, by and large, they don't

778
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: have experience in the criminal justice system. They don't really know.

779
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think most people default, as I did

780
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: growing up, that law enforcement is on our side. There

781
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: are friends, they're not you know, they're they're there to

782
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: protect us. And it says right on the side of

783
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: the car, protect and serve. So what should they be

784
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: looking out for.

785
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 4: Well, the first thing I would say is absolutely to

786
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 4: echo your message. Jury service is crucial. And the second

787
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 4: thing they should be looking out for is their own autonomy.

788
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 4: What happens so often in these situations is you get

789
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 4: in a room and in Cash's case, you have a

790
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 4: couple of people who have doubt. In his case, there

791
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 4: was no weapon, there was no wallet found, there was

792
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 4: no evidence other than these two eyewitnesses. And the juror

793
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 4: who contacted me after Cash's exoneration, who suffered so much anguish,

794
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 4: was telling me that he was the youngest person on

795
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 4: the jury. He was eighteen. It was the first time

796
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 4: he'd served on a jury, and he had these doubts

797
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 4: and he expressed them, but basically he felt that because

798
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 4: other people on the jury were older and had more

799
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 4: powerful personalities, are more and more experienced, he should sort

800
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 4: of defer to them. And then the pressure to convict mounted,

801
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 4: and the pressure to get out of the room mounted,

802
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 4: and he gave it. And so often you hear about

803
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 4: that that jurors have these lingering doubts in these cases

804
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 4: because they do smell a rat and they don't act

805
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 4: on it. So I would just impress upon people not

806
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 4: only go to jury service, but in the jury room,

807
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 4: stick to your convictions. If you don't think it's right

808
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 4: to convict, it's not. Don't let people push you around,

809
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 4: don't let people bully you. Don't convict so you can

810
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 4: go home to your family on a Friday night.

811
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: Right, That's the whole reasonable doubt thing, I mean, And

812
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: I think that's forgotten and ignored in too many cases.

813
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, that's a powerful picture that you're painting.

814
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: And I have heard of so many, too many cases

815
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: in which there's been jurors who've been bamboozled or bullied

816
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: even in the jury room. And you know, I'm thinking

817
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: now about the Randall Paget case, right, which Richard Jaffey

818
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: wrote so eloquently about in his book Quest for Justice

819
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: Defending the Damned. And in his case, the jury was

820
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: ten to two in favor of originally a favor of

821
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: guilt of conviction. And it was so clear, I mean,

822
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: when you read the story, it's unbelievably obvious when you're

823
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: presented now with the facts. But on the other hand,

824
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: that jury was looking at a guy who had already

825
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: been convicted and sentenced to death right, so they knew

826
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: that they knew that this was a brutal murder, stabbing

827
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: and a rape, and so they were preconceived to think, well,

828
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: he's there, it must be. Then there's research that shows

829
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: my friend Josh Dubin did the research that shows that

830
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: people have a preconceived notion of someone's in that box,

831
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: they probably are guilty. But in this case, there was

832
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: one juror, a woman who came up and spoke to

833
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: Richard after the verdict, which was innocent. They found him

834
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: innocent and freedom, and she came up to him on

835
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: the courthouse steps and told him that she had gotten

836
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: up because the victim was found in a very strange position.

837
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: One leg was up on a nightstand, the other leg

838
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: was up on the bed, her body was all askew,

839
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: and she got up and put her legs up in

840
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: that position imagine an Alabama woman doing that in the

841
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: jury room, and said, look, you can't rape a woman

842
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: this way, right, And she showed the other jurors that

843
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: this was not possible, and sure enough she won the

844
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: day and he was freed, and he turned out to

845
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: be absolutely factually innocent. So she saved the man's life.

846
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: And when you're in a jury, I'm not suggesting that

847
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: that's an extreme that you need to go to, but

848
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, we should remember her and and you know,

849
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: and honor.

850
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 4: Her absolutely, and what she did was incredibly brave and

851
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: creative and creative.

852
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that was such a bizarre case too,

853
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: because I won't get into all the details. You have

854
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: to read the book, but it's an amazing, amazing case.

855
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: And he is such a hero for having, you know,

856
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 1: won that case in Alabama, you know, I mean, tough,

857
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: tough down there.

858
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 4: One final point about jury's and this is to watch

859
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 4: out for your unconscious bias because so for example, going

860
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 4: back to Cash's jury in nineteen seventy nine, this was

861
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 4: a black teenager accused of killing an elderly white man.

862
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 4: The jury was all white, twelve people, all white people,

863
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 4: and it's hard for me to believe, based on the

864
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 4: scanty evidence that they had, that they would have convicted

865
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 4: a white person. And I think, whether it was conscious

866
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 4: or unconscious, they valued Cash's life less because he was black.

867
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 4: And I think that's another thing that jurors really really

868
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 4: have to think about, which is you have to value

869
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 4: everyone's life equally, And as you say, you have to

870
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 4: drill down on the presumption of innocence, because you're absolutely right, Jason,

871
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 4: that people look at the person sitting at the defendant's

872
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 4: table and they don't think, Gosh, what's that wrongly accused

873
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 4: innocent person doing there? They think, I wonder what he did?

874
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 4: And that's an unconstitutional thought. You actually shouldn't be thinking

875
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 4: that you should be presuming innocence. So I think both

876
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 4: of those are also very very important for juries to remember.

877
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: And while we're on that subject, we know that the

878
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: justice system is biased throughout right in terms of the

879
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: number of people arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. The percentages are

880
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: off the charts if you're a person of color. But

881
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: at the same time, we also know that people of

882
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: color don't commit crimes at any higher rate than white

883
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: people do. So isn't it odd that we demonize and

884
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: persecute people who are not only the least able to

885
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: defend themselves because of socioeconomic reasons, but also people who

886
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: are by and large less culpable and less likely to

887
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: commit terrible crimes on a large scale.

888
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 4: And it's also really interesting how those crimes get classified. So,

889
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 4: for example, in the eighties and the nineties, we had

890
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: what we called, or our presidents called a crack epidemic,

891
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 4: and of course, predominantly the people who are being arrested

892
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: and prosecuted and sent away for long periods of time.

893
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 4: We're African American. Now we're going going through a huge

894
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 4: problem in this country with opioids. But we're not calling

895
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 4: it a criminal epidemic. We're not talking about super predators

896
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 4: roaming the streets with crack cocaine because many of the

897
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 4: people who are impacted are white. So we're calling it

898
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 4: a health crisis. We're calling it a national emergency, and

899
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 4: we're talking about treatment. We're talking about options other than

900
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 4: incarceration in a lot of these cases. And yet they're

901
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 4: both these massive problems with drug addiction, but we classify

902
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 4: it differently depending on who that drug or which community

903
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 4: that drug is impacting.

904
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, drugs are a medical problem. They need to

905
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: be treated as such. It is unconscionable that even as

906
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: we're sitting here right now, the people being arrested for

907
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 1: marijuana in this country and locked up. But it's happening,

908
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: and it all needs to stop. But it's part of

909
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: the same problem, and I think the pendulum is swinging.

910
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: It's interesting that it's really the only even semi bipart

911
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: is an issue that exists right now right and it's

912
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: not truly bipartisan, but at least there are points of agreement.

913
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: And a true conservative can't look at it any other

914
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: way than to say, this is big government at its worst,

915
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: and we need to deincarce rate, and we need to

916
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: stop this mass spending on warehousing of people. And I

917
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: don't think you know, the numbers are so insane in

918
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: terms of the money that it costs us as taxpayers,

919
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: but even those numbers don't take into account the loss

920
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: of tax revenue from the people that are locked up,

921
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: that aren't out there working jobs and supporting their families.

922
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: And it just goes on and on and on. It's

923
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: so horrible, Lara, we have a tradition here at Wrongful Conviction,

924
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: which is it's a great tradition because it's my favorite

925
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: part of the show, and my favorite part of the

926
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: show is the end. And the reason it's my favorite

927
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: part is because it's the part where I get to

928
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: say thank you for being here and for all you're

929
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: doing and for you know, inspiring me and countless others

930
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: to keep doing everything we can to to rectify a situation.

931
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: And once again, your book is awesome. I recommend everybody

932
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: read it. It's Rectify the Power of Restorative Justice After

933
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction by Lara Basilon. And so, Lara, thank you

934
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: for being here, and I now get to turn the

935
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: mic over to you and I get to just tune

936
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: out and listen to your thoughts.

937
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I want to start by saying

938
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 4: thank you for having me, and thank you for all

939
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 4: of the work that you do. I think it's rare

940
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 4: to find someone who has such diverse interests and who

941
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: supports artists and art and makes art and then also

942
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 4: looks around and sees that the world is broken in

943
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 4: this entirely different place and does everything they can to

944
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 4: make it right. And so I want to thank you

945
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 4: for the work that you do and for inviting me

946
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 4: onto your show. Parting thoughts, I think we should all

947
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 4: think hard about how we can all be practitioners of

948
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 4: restorative justice in our own way, in our own lives

949
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 4: and our own relationships. When I first found out about it,

950
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 4: my thought was, why isn't everyone doing this? And I

951
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 4: looked at the kind of healing that can happen when

952
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: people face each other who've faced each other down across

953
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 4: opposite side of the courtroom and felt nothing but hatred

954
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 4: for each other and wishing each other the worst, and

955
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 4: they're able to come together and share these experiences that

956
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 4: are so profound in circumstances where they might just want

957
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 4: to run from each other and run from the pain

958
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 4: and run from the trauma, and instead they're joining hands

959
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 4: and they're walking through it together, and then they're coming

960
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 4: out the other side. And I think for people who

961
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 4: listen to your show, who think, well, I'm not wrongfully

962
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 4: convicted myself, and I don't know anyone, and this is

963
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 4: sort of outside of any experience that I might have,

964
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 4: I think what they can ask themselves is, how can

965
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 4: I apply this to my own life and what harms

966
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 4: have I inflicted? Who's harmed me? And how can I

967
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 4: use this to make my own life better and make

968
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 4: someone else's life better. And I've definitely gone through that

969
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 4: process myself, and I've really thought I've been somewhat of

970
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 4: a vengeful and unforgiving person in a way that hasn't

971
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 4: benefited anyone, certainly not me. Or the people that I've

972
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 4: directed that energy toward, And it just makes so much

973
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 4: more sense, I think, to completely revisualize the situation and

974
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 4: realize every time you tell yourself you're a victim, quite

975
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 4: often you have a piece of culpability and what's happened,

976
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 4: and you have some responsibility and some accountability of your

977
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 4: own to do. And I think the more people can

978
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 4: see that and reconnect and mend broken relationships, the better

979
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 4: off all of us will be.

980
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: Wow, that's that's pretty much it. I mean, I couldn't

981
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: have said it any better, and I'm glad I got

982
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: to hear you say it. So why don't we go

983
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: start with the youngest and just share anything that you

984
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: want to share with the audience about your experience.

985
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 6: It was a great experience. It's an experience I don't

986
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 6: wish anyone would have to go through. But I appreciate

987
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 6: him so much and it's been an honor knowing him,

988
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 6: getting to know him, and I will forever cherish this bond.

989
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 5: I think the most important thing for me right now

990
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 5: is that perhaps what I did, what I believe the

991
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 5: risk I took, that somebody else, some other victim's family

992
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 5: will follow suit and try to help somebody else down

993
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 5: the route. So I want to be an example for

994
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 5: other people to forgive.

995
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: Again, you can't imagine this. I mean it's insane. I couldn't.

996
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: I couldn't even with somebody else's brain. You can't think

997
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 2: of this. I mean, this sort of thing doesn't happen.

998
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: I mean, not just with Shannon and her family, but

999
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: the jurors, the men and women that read that not

1000
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 2: guilty verdict. I'm close with everybody.

1001
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: You know.

1002
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: Right after the verd they didn't want to leave the courtroom.

1003
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: They wanted to just stay there and see me come

1004
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: out of that. Man like, you can't. You can't. I

1005
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 2: can't put this in words. You can't imagine this.

1006
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:01,879
Speaker 4: Man.

1007
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you know, I'm just so grateful, and it's

1008
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 2: such a shame that you have to go through such

1009
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: a tragic situation to be breeding some goodness in life.

1010
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 2: I've been home over two years, just a little over

1011
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: two years. That past twenty five years don't consume my life,

1012
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: not for one second of any day. I'm happy to

1013
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 2: be alive. I'm happy to have Shannon and Lauren and

1014
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: Devin and that family in my life. I'm happy to

1015
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 2: have my whole family. I try to find a good

1016
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: in everything. No matter what situation. You and somebody in

1017
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: the worst situation just keep on fighting, Just keep on fighting.

1018
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: Tough times on last, tough people do. I'm built for this, man.

1019
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: I'm really almost never at a loss for words, but

1020
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: in the presence of you, I'm really I'm just very

1021
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: very moved and grateful when you're here and sharing your

1022
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: thoughts and your spirit. Once again, You've been listening to

1023
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: a very special episode for me and I hope for you,

1024
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: with Lara Basilon, Shannon Coleman and her wonderful daughter Lauren,

1025
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: and the one and only Tony Wright.

1026
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 2: Having play Always Mind Man.

1027
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1028
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1029
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

1030
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1031
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1032
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1033
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1034
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1035
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1036
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: in Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful

1037
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production

1038
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company

1039
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: Number one