1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Attorney General William Barr has come under intense criticism since 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: the overall frontline prosecutors last week to reduce the recommended 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: prison time for Roger Stone. More than two thousand former 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: Justice Department officials signed an open letter asking that Bar 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 1: stepped down over his decision in the Stone case. He's 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: also faced criticism in recent days over other matters, for example, 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: creating a special process for Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: to submit information to the Department about Ukraine related matters, 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: and appointing a senior prosecutor to examine cases being handled 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: by the U. S. Attorney's Office in d C, including 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: the sentencing of Michael Flynn. Joining me is Neil Kincough, 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: a professor at Georgia State University College of Law. He 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: was formerly special assistant to the Attorney General. We're about 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: one year into the tenure of William Bar as Attorney General. 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: What strikes you most about the last year, Well, what's 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: most striking to me is just how thoroughly Bill Barr 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: has undermined and politicized the Justice Department. Um I testified 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: at his confirmation hearing, and I testified in opposition because 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: I thought his view of presidential power was so extreme 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: as to be disqualifying. I think he's shown that that's true, 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: but that's only the tip of the iceberg of reasons 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: to be concerned about him and his tenure as Attorney General. 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: UM I did not anticipate that he would turn the 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: Department into a vehicle for President Trump's political ambitions. Um 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: I worked in the Justice Department back in the ninet nineties, 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: and what I observed was that the chief function of 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: the political layer at the Justice Department and principally the 29 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: Attorney General, was to insulate the department from political pressure. 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: And that was true not just in the nineties. It 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: was true in the eighties. It was true in Republican 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: administrations and democratic administrations. UM and it's what made the 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: Justice Department a credible institution and an institution with real 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: integrity in upholding our criminal justice system. But Bill Barr 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: has inverted that. He is instead of acting as an 36 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: insulation against political pressure, he's turned into the conduit for 37 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: political pressure. The way that the president can exert his 38 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: political influence over every aspect of the Justice Department. And 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: that's a threat that is far graver than anything I 40 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: anticipated even when I was testifying against him a year ago. 41 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 1: President Trump seems to be testing his relationship with Bar, 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: demanding a clean house at the Justice Department and target 43 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: those involved in the Russia investigation. Do you see this 44 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: as real or as something for for Trump space. My 45 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: concern is that that's what it is, right, that this 46 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: is a show for his base. That Bill bar when 47 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 1: he says, um, Trump's tweets make it difficult or impossible 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: for him to do his job. That what Bar means 49 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: is I'm already doing your bidding. It makes it look 50 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: bad when you start telling me what to do because 51 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I already know what to do, and it's better if 52 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: you just keep quiet about it. Um. And if that's 53 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: the situation, then the Justice Department is far gone. Um. 54 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: If that's not the situation, which is my hope, is 55 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: that President Trump thinks he needs to instruct Bill Barr 56 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: because behind the scenes, somehow Bill Barr is standing up 57 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: to him. Um. Well, that would be encouraging. The problem 58 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: is I don't really see any evidence of that. We 59 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: hear a lot about well, there are career prosecutors there 60 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: and they're still doing their job. Is this just in 61 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: the DC office that where that we're hearing these stories, 62 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: or are their problems throughout the Justice Department perhaps and 63 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: concerns that career prosecutors won't want to stay there anymore. 64 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: So I I have not heard anything that gives me 65 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: pause about what's going on in other U S. Attorney's offices, 66 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: but I think that that may be coming. Right. So 67 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: I think back to UM the administration of George W. 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: Bush and the way that Karl Rove got involved with 69 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: more local but still political prosecutions. So, for example, he 70 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: saw to the firing of the U S attorney who 71 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: brought charges against Republican Congressman Randy Duke Cunningham, if you 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: remember that scandal UM and other prosecutions against Republican figures. 73 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: He also had fired um U S attorneys who refused 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: to bring unwarranted prosecutions against Democratic opponents UM and you 75 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: know there it was a real problem the way Karl 76 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: Rove got involved. And and it's hard for me to 77 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: imagine Donald Trump not at some point getting around to that, 78 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: or Bill Bard doing that for him. Right one year 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: in Bill Bard doesn't seem to have done that yet, 80 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: but there are signs, right. So if you look at 81 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: the way he's curbing the Southern District of New York's 82 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: UM inquiry into Leve Parnis and Rudy Giuliani, UM, you 83 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: know that's another district besides the District of Columbia district 84 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: that could start moving into other districts throughout the country. Right, 85 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: So there's there's every reason to watch it, although I 86 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: don't know that it's happening yet. I've been talking to 87 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Neil Kinkoff, a professor at the Georgia State University College 88 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: of Law, about William Barr's first year as Attorney General 89 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: for President Donald Trump. You know, we always hear the 90 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: Southern District of New York is the sovereign district and 91 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: it's almost into Hendant from d C. Which doesn't make 92 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: sense to me because the Attorney General is also the 93 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: Attorney General over the Southern District. What is he doing 94 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: there with Parnis and Frewman. So he has given UM 95 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: the Eastern District of New York the ability to define 96 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of the Southern District with respect to those investigations. 97 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: So these two districts are our rivals with one another. 98 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: It'd be a little bit like letting the head coach 99 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: of the unit of Clemson do the recruiting for Alabama, right, 100 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, there their rivals, you know. So putting that 101 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: kind of power over the Southern District into the Eastern 102 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: District is itself a questionable thing. And the Eastern District 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: I can't imagine Bill bar shows it at random. Not 104 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: only are they going to be inclined to reign in 105 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: the Southern district, but the U. S. Attorney in the 106 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: Eastern District is much more closely aligned with Bar. So 107 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: while the Southern District has this reputation for independence, Bill 108 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: Barr is setting up mechanisms that will allow him to 109 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: work around or overcome that independence. Looking back, does it 110 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: seemed to you as he as if he had a 111 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: grand plan, because if you look at what people often 112 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: call his you know, his sort of resume for the 113 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: job of a g he does have some very odd 114 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: ideas about the president's power that even state that the 115 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: Framers didn't worry so much about presidential power, right, And 116 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: he's expressed that since that memo. He's expressed it in speeches. 117 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: His notorious speech at the federalist society, last fault being 118 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 1: one of them. Yeah, he has this idea that in fact, 119 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: the presidency is modeled on on the monarchy. It is 120 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: completely revisionist history. There is no actual support for that 121 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: in the historical record, and if you go back and 122 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: read documents from that era, it's impossible not to see 123 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: just how committed everyone in the Founding generation was to 124 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: avoiding having another king, and so political opponents would charge 125 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: the other with acting like a king. It was a 126 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: commonplace in in the Founding era. And so this idea 127 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: that bar has that the real concern of the Constitution 128 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: was with a two powerful legislature and that they meant 129 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: to establish a sort of American imperial presidency as a 130 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: counterbalance to that is simply contrary to everything we know 131 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: about the Founding era. But you're right to ask about 132 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: whether he had some kind of grand plan when he 133 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: came into office. I think he did. He sees himself 134 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: as trying to restore the what he regards as the 135 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: original vision of the presidency, and he's completely wrong. In 136 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: his original vision is a day injuriously wrong one, and 137 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: we see that over and over as he enables Trump 138 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: in exceeding any kind of realistic view of the president's 139 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: proper role in our constitutional system. Well, I also wonder 140 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: about his view of the courts, and it seems to 141 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: be a strange view for the Attorney General of the 142 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: United States, in that he seems to think that the 143 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: courts shouldn't get involved in separation of powers issues. He 144 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: said exactly that in his Federalist Society speech, and it's 145 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: it's a completely bizarre view I suppose he has in 146 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: mind when he says that executive privilege fights between Congress 147 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: and the president, and if the courts don't get involved, 148 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: what he knows full well is that the president will 149 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: win because Congress has no way of forcing the president 150 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: to turn over papers. In the memo that you referred to, 151 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: he suggested that Congress could impeach the president. But now 152 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: we've seen that in fact, Congress can't impeach the president 153 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: for refusing to turn over documents. The House impeached him 154 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: and the Senate refused to convict. So there's no other 155 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: way of getting the president to act in a manner 156 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: that's accountable and transparent. But it's also I think not 157 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: in the long run interests of the executive branch, because 158 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: there are a lot of situations where the president needs 159 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: to go to court to vindicate what he views as 160 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: his authority. Right. So, a lot of the separation of 161 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: powers cases that have gone to the court are cases 162 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: where the president has been the one complaining about statutory 163 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: limits on his power. Let's talk a little bit about 164 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: the clemency process. As President Trump just granted clemency to 165 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: a group of eleven people, including several very high profile 166 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: political cases. First of all, did you see a pattern 167 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: in his grant of clemency. Well, the pattern seemed to 168 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: be that, um, he approves of corruption. I just don't 169 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: know any other way, any other way to look at it. Um. 170 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: And so during the impeachment, we kept hearing his defenders say, 171 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, his actions in the Ukraine were all grounded 172 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: on his deep concern about corruption, and I think he's 173 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: just given the lie to that claim. Right. So the 174 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: people that the prominent people in the group that were 175 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: pardoned were each and every one of them deeply corrupt. 176 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: Right ed. De Bartelow was paying off the governor of 177 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: of Louisiana in order to get a license to open 178 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: a casino there. Um. Michael Milken engaged in securities, fraud 179 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: and insider trading and amassed great wealth not based on 180 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: his value added, not based on anything that is um 181 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: allege at a market reason for amassing wealth, but rather 182 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: based on schemes, corrupt schemes. Um Every one of those 183 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: prominent people pardon fall into that category. And Rod Blagoyevitch 184 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: just takes the cake, right And and now Rod Blagoyevich 185 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: is out there saying he was a political prisoner. It's 186 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: just preposterous. This guy was shaking down children's hospitals for 187 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: extortion payments. And in Donald Trump's world, this is all okay. 188 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: He's normalizing corruption, and it I suppose makes sense if 189 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: you're Donald Trump to do that, since he is so 190 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: deeply corrupt himself. Describe what the normal channel is for 191 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: a pardon. Sure, the normal channel is to go through 192 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: the Justice Department. There is within the Justice Department and 193 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: office of Pardon Attorney, and the pardon attorney reviews all 194 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: applications for pardons and clemency and assesses them on the 195 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: basis of sort of a uniform set of criteria and 196 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: then forwards recommendations to the President. And the whole point 197 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: of this process is to make it open so that 198 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: it's available to anybody who wants to petition. It's also 199 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: open and available to victims of crime and to prosecutors. Right, 200 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: because it's not just the person seeking the pardoner clemency 201 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: that's interested in the result of that application, the person 202 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: who prosecuted that that person is also deeply interested. Um. 203 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: The victims of their crimes are deeply interested and ought 204 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: to be heard from. And the other The other reason 205 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: to run the process that way is that it shouldn't 206 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: be that pardons are available only to those who are 207 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: well connected and can get the president's ear right. It 208 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: ought to be something that is fairly available to everybody, 209 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not they have wealth or power. Um. 210 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: But in Donald Trump's world, what matters is whether you 211 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: can get onto Fox News and plead your case in 212 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: a way that he will personally hear it and then 213 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: be moved or not. And so it's only those who 214 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: have the kinds of connections that can get them onto 215 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: Fox News or the kinds of connections that can get 216 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: them in front of the president, because he is not 217 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: respecting the independent, nonpartisan process that the Justice Department runs well. 218 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: Apparently The Washington Post is reporting that there have been 219 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: discussions within the White House about ways to revamp the 220 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: clemency process and to diminish the role of the Justice Department, 221 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: and apparently Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner, is central 222 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: to these discussions. Does that concern you? It concerns me 223 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: on many levels. First of all, on the level of 224 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: the independence of the Justice Department. Right, this is another 225 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: way for the White House to undermine the independent, nonpartisan 226 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: administration of our justice system. Right. It is a fundamental 227 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: threat to the rule of law. Um and it is 228 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: one in a long litany of threats that this administration 229 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: has posed to the rule of law with respect to 230 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: pardons themselves. It undermines the integrity of the pardon process, 231 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: It undermines the fairness of the pardon process. And so 232 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: it's a terrible idea from from that perspective. And then lastly, 233 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: the people who would be running this process feel like 234 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: Jared Kushner and Donald Trump himself are people who seem 235 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: to have a real interest in undermining the integrity of 236 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system. Right. It seems like Donald Trump's 237 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: reason for that is that so many of his associates 238 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: are themselves caught up in criminal investigations right his campaign managers, 239 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: his close advisors, his political advisors, so many of them 240 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: are under indictment, are under conviction, or are in prison. 241 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: And so in order to sort of prop up the 242 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: sense of his own integrity, he's undermining the integrity of 243 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system. And of course, Jared Kushner's father 244 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: was also convicted of white collar crime, and so he 245 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: himself is apt to be an only too willing participant 246 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: in this idea of undermining the integrity of the criminal 247 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: justice system. Thanks deal. That's Neil Kinkoff, a professor at 248 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: the Georgia State University College of Law. And remember the 249 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: tunity to the Bloomberg Law Show weeknights at ten pm 250 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: right here on Bloomberg Radio.