WEBVTT - External Exam - Hypochondria with Author, Caroline Crampton

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<v Speaker 1>Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. On this week's

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<v Speaker 1>External Exam, I will be interviewing author and podcaster Caroline Crampton.

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<v Speaker 1>Caroline just wrote a new book called A Body Made

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<v Speaker 1>of Glass, A History of Hypochondria, which came out last week.

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<v Speaker 1>She also has a podcast called She'd Done It, a

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<v Speaker 1>storytelling podcast that unravels the mysteries behind classic detective stories.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi Caroline, Welcome The Mother Knows Death.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, thanks very much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>When I first learned of your book, I was immediately

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<v Speaker 1>intrigued by the title, mainly because I feel like I

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<v Speaker 1>suffer from hypochondria a tad as well. Can you please

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<v Speaker 1>explain to everyone what a hypochondriac is. So.

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<v Speaker 2>Hypochondriac is someone who has an unwarranted and persistent fear

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<v Speaker 2>that they have a serious illness, often in the face

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<v Speaker 2>of a lack of evidence of any organic cause of

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<v Speaker 2>a disease. So it's someone who has been to the

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<v Speaker 2>doctor to have a loaded symptoms checked out and the

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<v Speaker 2>doctor's saying I can't find anything. All your tests are

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<v Speaker 2>coming back fine, but the person is saying, well, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>still experiencing this thing. It's more commonly today known as

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<v Speaker 2>health anxiety. That's the kind of modern medicine's preferred term.

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<v Speaker 1>In the beginning of your book, you speak a lot

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<v Speaker 1>about a little bit about your life and how you

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<v Speaker 1>came into this particular subject. And one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that you stated, which makes total sense to me as

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<v Speaker 1>to why you're interested in this subject, is that you

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<v Speaker 1>are diagnosed with Hodgkins lymphoma when you were a teenager,

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<v Speaker 1>which has a pretty good success rate of survival if

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<v Speaker 1>it's caught early, and then it tends to go down

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more as the disease progress. And when

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<v Speaker 1>you were seventeen, you were diagnosed with this and had

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<v Speaker 1>you receive treatment, and they kind of told you, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you're good, everything's fine, and then you went away to

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<v Speaker 1>college and then a lump pop popped up in your

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<v Speaker 1>neck and then they told you, oh, it came back,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you had to get more aggressive treatment after that.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that that's the reason that you started

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<v Speaker 1>to become a hypochondriac yourself, because you lost trust in

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<v Speaker 1>the system.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's definitely the reason I became a hypochondriac. Partly

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<v Speaker 2>that incident that you're describing where I was given the

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<v Speaker 2>all clear to head off to college and then dragged

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<v Speaker 2>straight back again to the hospital. And then also partly

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<v Speaker 2>just the fact that as part of their recovery from that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, good doctors always say things like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you should come and see us whenever you have any concerns,

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<v Speaker 2>or you should always keep an eye on this, and

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<v Speaker 2>if you feel anything that doesn't feel right, come straight in.

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<v Speaker 2>And that habit of checking and hyper vigilance and always

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<v Speaker 2>being on high alert that something could be wrong. That's

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<v Speaker 2>really the core of the anxiety for me. That's where

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<v Speaker 2>it began. The issue of losing trust in doctors is

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting one though, because I actually didn't really find

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<v Speaker 2>that that was the case, partly because my doctor was

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<v Speaker 2>very upfront about this could happen. He didn't try and

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<v Speaker 2>pretend that this wasn't a likely outcome, but he just

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<v Speaker 2>and I did my own research to double check that

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<v Speaker 2>this was true. He laid it out, as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this treatment I'm doing for the first round has a

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<v Speaker 2>ninety five percent chance of affecting a total cure, so

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely overwhelmingly on your side, but there is a five

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<v Speaker 2>percent chance that it won't work, but the scandal seemed

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<v Speaker 2>to show that it had worked, and so off I go.

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<v Speaker 2>But then once I found the lump again, I was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm just in the five percent. It wasn't like

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<v Speaker 2>I'd been promised something that was then withdrawn. It was

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<v Speaker 2>it was presented to me as a possible outcome, just

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<v Speaker 2>not a likely one.

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<v Speaker 1>That's good because I hear a lot of stories of

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<v Speaker 1>people getting diagnosed with some nasty like nasty cancers, including

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<v Speaker 1>my grandmom, and the oncologists kind of giving them a

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<v Speaker 1>lot more hope than what the actual numbers show.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's good that you were you at least.

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<v Speaker 1>Had it laid out for you, that you know this

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<v Speaker 1>was a possibility, and you just so happened to fall

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<v Speaker 1>in that rare percent of it coming back unfortunately. It

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<v Speaker 1>so now, just to get this out there, like you've

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<v Speaker 1>been all clear for a while since you've gotten diagnosed

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<v Speaker 1>with that, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I think it's fifteen coming up, fifteen years now.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh wow, that's awesome. Congrats on that.

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<v Speaker 1>In the book, you talk about the history of hypochondria,

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<v Speaker 1>which is really it's really interesting to me actually, and

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<v Speaker 1>you start with Hippocrates and then you go to modern day,

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<v Speaker 1>which would be like people google doctor Google, they say,

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<v Speaker 1>googling your diagnosis. Through your research, what are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the common themes that you've seen throughout history as it

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<v Speaker 1>relates to being a human with health anxieties.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the really big ones is people seeking alternative

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<v Speaker 2>treatments to whatever the medical authority is in their particular

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<v Speaker 2>decade or century. So I had a lot of fun

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<v Speaker 2>actually with this aspect of the research in the book

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<v Speaker 2>is diving back into what was once upon a time

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<v Speaker 2>called quackery. So you know, there's ancient Egyptian accounts of

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<v Speaker 2>people being prescribed mixtures of dung and honey for a

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<v Speaker 2>whole variety of conditions. And then you get into the

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<v Speaker 2>Middle Ages when people are carrying parts of animals around

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<v Speaker 2>with them because they've been told it will ward off

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<v Speaker 2>a particular type of sickness, or taking some really incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>noxious remedies including mercury and things like that, because they've

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<v Speaker 2>been told by some medical pseudoscientifical salesman that this will

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<v Speaker 2>solve all of their problems. And then I really do

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<v Speaker 2>think it connects right up to the present day with

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<v Speaker 2>our modern wellness industry. An awful lot of that is

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<v Speaker 2>uh designed to tempt people who feel like conventional scientific

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<v Speaker 2>medicine is not satisfying them, it's not giving them the

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<v Speaker 2>answers that they want. So why don't you try these

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<v Speaker 2>supplements and on regulated industry, why don't you try these habits,

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<v Speaker 2>these things, all of which you conveniently have to pay for.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was a really really big theme. Another one

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<v Speaker 2>is just how sad and tragic this can all be.

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<v Speaker 2>I found accounts of people from second third centuries who

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<v Speaker 2>have such advanced anxiety that they believe that they're made

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<v Speaker 2>of pottery. It was called the earthenware delusion. That they're

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<v Speaker 2>so concerned about the fragility of their bodies that they

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<v Speaker 2>think that they're actually made of pottery. And then right

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<v Speaker 2>up to the present day. I think it's a really

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<v Speaker 2>tragic and sad thing when someone isn't able to enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>that the body that they're in, they're not able to

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<v Speaker 2>enjoy the health that they've got, whatever state that is,

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<v Speaker 2>because they're always so anxious about what could be about

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. And I say that from personal experience, it's

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<v Speaker 2>this concert did a cycle of guilt in my head

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<v Speaker 2>that well, I seem fine. Why can't I just enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>being fine instead of living constantly in the space of fear.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is a terrible I've gone through it sometimes,

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<v Speaker 1>so it is definitely a terrible way of living. And

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<v Speaker 1>it is interesting though that you say that about the treatments,

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<v Speaker 1>because I just wrote about Steve Jobs last week. He

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<v Speaker 1>was the creator of Apple and mac and stuff, and

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<v Speaker 1>he had gotten diagnosed with a cancer that was seemingly

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<v Speaker 1>pretty treatable, and he decided to go the alternative route

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<v Speaker 1>as well, and then he ended up having it come

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<v Speaker 1>back a little bit worse, and by the time he

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<v Speaker 1>actually decided to go with traditional medicine. So I've definitely

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<v Speaker 1>heard about that. It's just interesting that you've been seeing

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<v Speaker 1>that hundreds of years ago. It's really interesting in your research,

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<v Speaker 1>did you find that health anxieties followed trends like, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>right now, the hu to in the news the past

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<v Speaker 1>couple of months has been that there's an increase in

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<v Speaker 1>cancer in younger people. So now all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>people that maybe never had calling cancer on the mind

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<v Speaker 1>when they were thirty, or like, oh my god, I

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<v Speaker 1>might have calling cancer. Is that something you've seen with

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<v Speaker 1>trends throughout history.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, very very markedly. I think I wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about actually how medicine and hypochondria to me seem

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<v Speaker 2>to go hand in hand, that whatever the state of

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<v Speaker 2>medical progress is, that's where hypochondria will be. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>today it's people young people fearing that they've got kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of cancer that are traditionally associated with people a bit

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<v Speaker 2>further on or I don't know, in the mid twentieth century,

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<v Speaker 2>people are fearing that they've got AIDS because that's just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of come onto the news that they've just heard about. It.

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<v Speaker 2>Go back one hundred years before to the nineteenth century,

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<v Speaker 2>people are afraid that they've got tuberculosis. You can do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Whenever the condition du jour is any century, that's what

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<v Speaker 2>the hypochondriacs will be afraid that they've got. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>something about it that is just this hunger for new

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<v Speaker 2>information and incorporating new information into your anxieties. And yet

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<v Speaker 2>you see that absolutely throughout history.

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<v Speaker 1>Throughout the years, there has definitely been obviously you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about all this documentation of health anxiety, has there ever

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<v Speaker 1>been any kind of suggestions for treatments and ones that

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<v Speaker 1>actually work? Is it a combination of therapy and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>just like taking some kind of SSRIs to like chill

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<v Speaker 1>you out, or like what seems to be something that

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<v Speaker 1>helps it.

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<v Speaker 2>So historically there have been some very bad treatments. So

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<v Speaker 2>in the sort of eighteenth nineteenth century, you've got these

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<v Speaker 2>really entrepreneurial quack medicine salesmen who are saying, oh, nothing

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<v Speaker 2>cures hypochondria apart from my potion, which contain I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>mercury and phosphates and all kinds of other things you

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<v Speaker 2>definitely don't want to ingest. In the twentieth century and

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<v Speaker 2>into the twenty first we have a much better grasp

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<v Speaker 2>on it. There was some really good research done in

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<v Speaker 2>the sixties and seventies and more recently about Yeah, the

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<v Speaker 2>effectiveness of SSRIs and antidepressants generally have really shown to

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<v Speaker 2>be effective for people with health anxiety. And the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>thing there is cognitive behavial therapy, and that's I know

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<v Speaker 2>in the UK where I live, that's what you will

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<v Speaker 2>be referred for if you are diagnosed with health anxiety,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's the same in other places as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Often a combination of those two things, antidepressants and CBT.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally, also did a course of what's called EMDR therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>which is this eye movement and desensori desensitization, which is

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<v Speaker 2>often used for people with PTSD. I think the quite

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<v Speaker 2>big book The Body Keeps the Score is all about

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<v Speaker 2>this and its use on military veterans, but it can

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<v Speaker 2>be used on other kinds of trauma too, and medical

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<v Speaker 2>trauma is one of the kinds. So I found that

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<v Speaker 2>really helpful personally.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I believe that too because my older daughter, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>she when she was younger, she had I mean, she

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have something as terrible as you were going through,

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<v Speaker 1>but she had asthma and she was in the hospital

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<v Speaker 1>a lot as a child getting IVS. It's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>for a little kid to have to go through that.

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<v Speaker 1>And now as an adult, she wants to faint when

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<v Speaker 1>she has to get her blood taken. And I could

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<v Speaker 1>directly just relate it back to her going through all

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<v Speaker 1>that as a little kid, that just the thought of

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<v Speaker 1>any of that stuff just makes her want to pass out,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's nuts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's a really common reaction, especially people

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<v Speaker 2>who've had childhood medical experiences, medical trauma, and what EMDR does,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think is really interesting, and it's still it's

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<v Speaker 2>a difficult thing to produce evidence about, so it's a

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<v Speaker 2>slightly contested therapy. People who've done it and find it

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<v Speaker 2>works are very positive about it. Other people are skeptical.

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<v Speaker 2>What it purports to do is move memories from one

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<v Speaker 2>part of your brain to another, So memories that are

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<v Speaker 2>from the past, but you're still experiencing them, and you

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<v Speaker 2>every time you say go to get an IV, you're

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<v Speaker 2>connecting it back to that experience in the past, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're re experiencing your kind of retraumatizing yourself. What EMDR

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<v Speaker 2>proposes to do is move that memory from that part

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<v Speaker 2>of the brain that's very much in the present and

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<v Speaker 2>move it into the part where memories are stored from

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<v Speaker 2>the past, so you can still think about it, you

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<v Speaker 2>still know that it happened, but it's not reaffecting you

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<v Speaker 2>every time you find yourself in a similar situation. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the theory, at least. I think we'll have to wait

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<v Speaker 2>for some clever neuroscientists to finally produce the proof or

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<v Speaker 2>whether that's possible.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, you had it done and you said

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:51.680
<v Speaker 1>that you feel like it worked for you, right.

0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I did, I really did, But even while I was

0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 2>doing it, I had my doubts about whether itlt a

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 2>bit like hypnotism in a way because the eye movement

0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.040
<v Speaker 2>part of the acronym. What it refers to is the

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.600
<v Speaker 2>moving of those memories. The way they do it is

0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 2>you have to do what they call bilateral stimulations, either

0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 2>by moving your eyes from side to side in a rhythm,

0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.400
<v Speaker 2>or some therapists I think, like to do sort of

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 2>tapping on alternate sides of your body, either you doing

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>it or someone doing it to you. And you combine

0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 2>that bilateral stimulation with talking therapy about the incident and

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.320
<v Speaker 2>ideas that are connected to it for you. So you

0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 2>start with that incident and then you talk about, well,

0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:35.920
<v Speaker 2>then it happened this time, then it happened that time,

0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.760
<v Speaker 2>and you keep connecting back and they keep checking in

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>with you the whole time you're doing this and saying like,

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 2>how upsetting are you finding this memory? On a scale

0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 2>of one to ten, they keep doing it until you

0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:51.000
<v Speaker 2>basically till you get down to one. So even as

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I was doing it, I was like, is this hypnotism.

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of moving my eyes in a rhythm. I'm

0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.000
<v Speaker 2>being It's very after a while, you really get into

0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the rhythm of it and feels very mesmeric. So I

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 2>did have my doubts even while it was going on,

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 2>but I experienced very positive results from it, and you know,

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm very grateful for that. Whatever happened.

0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like it's almost like who cares? It worked, right,

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:17.959
<v Speaker 1>And you really, having health anxiety is so disabling because

0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 1>it's only going to get worse as you get older,

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.240
<v Speaker 1>because the more you're you get older, the more your

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 1>body starts falling apart, and then you need blood work

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 1>every couple months for certain medication you're on, and all

0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff. Like you just got to get

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:32.320
<v Speaker 1>over it somehow.

0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:39.040
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And people with health anxiety as well, they with

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 2>the diagnostic manual categorizes them into two different types. They're

0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 2>either care seeking or care avoiding. That doesn't seem to

0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 2>be any in between. Care Seeking are the people who are,

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, at the doctors every other day, always wanting

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 2>more tests, always wanting reassurance in that way. Care avoidant,

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I think, are the people who struggle even harder as

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 2>they age because they're the people who would rather never

0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 2>go near a doctor in case they get bad news.

0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.480
<v Speaker 2>And I think you're right as you age, there's more

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.000
<v Speaker 2>good reasons why you should be getting stuff checked out.

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.440
<v Speaker 2>You should be receiving regular care, and if you're not

0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.360
<v Speaker 2>willing to cross the threshold of the doctor's surgery, you

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.320
<v Speaker 2>could end up in some serious trouble because of it.

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.960
<v Speaker 1>We had this story once in one of the hospitals

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:23.720
<v Speaker 1>that I worked at. One of the doctors told us

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.800
<v Speaker 1>that there was this doctor that she used to work

0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 1>with that had this chronic cough and just stop didn't

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.120
<v Speaker 1>want to go get it checked out because this doctor

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 1>swore that he had lung cancer and he never got

0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 1>it checked out, and then he ended up dying. And

0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.960
<v Speaker 1>when they checked him and it did his autopsy, he

0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.560
<v Speaker 1>ended up having TB, which was something that could have

0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 1>totally been treated for the amount of time he let

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:52.880
<v Speaker 1>it go on. And just working in surgical pathology and autopsy,

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 1>I've seen lots of cases like that that you're just like, Man,

0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 1>if this person just got this checked out when it

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 1>presented the they wouldn't be dead or have this massive

0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 1>surgery right now.

0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it can feel a bit like you're

0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>in a catch twenty two though, because absolutely you feel

0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 2>like all the good advices. You should always get something checked.

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Like I was saying my cancer doctors being like, if

0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 2>you have any concerns, always come back and get checked.

0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 2>And then if you go too much, then they start

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.800
<v Speaker 2>to go. You're always hear what's really going on, what's

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.720
<v Speaker 2>really lying behind this? So in your mind, as the

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 2>anxious person, you're like, well, where's what's the perfect number

0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.760
<v Speaker 2>of visits? What's the perfect number of times I should

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.200
<v Speaker 2>go to the doctor. And of course that all feeds

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:37.119
<v Speaker 2>into the overthinking.

0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 1>That's what's so scary though, because you always read these

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 1>news stories that are titled like she had a headache,

0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.520
<v Speaker 1>it turned out to be so much worse and it

0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.800
<v Speaker 1>was like stage four brain cancer or something like.

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.600
<v Speaker 3>And then you say, well.

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 1>I have a headache, could that be why I'm having headaches?

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.160
<v Speaker 1>And it's hard to just because you hear a lot

0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 1>of times of these stories where people had these super

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 1>mild symptoms and it ended up being something really bad.

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and even in real life, I feel like when

0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.760
<v Speaker 2>you've had a health condition or you're known to have

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.919
<v Speaker 2>had it, people love to share their stories with you,

0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and mostly they do that from very positive motives and

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to be kind, but they will say something like, oh,

0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.720
<v Speaker 2>so you've got a blood cancer. My cousin had a

0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.399
<v Speaker 2>blood cancer and she's dead now, or you're like thanks,

0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 2>or went she went through five years of treatment and

0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.080
<v Speaker 2>she's mostly okay now. But you know, everyone's always got

0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.600
<v Speaker 2>a treatment, they've always got a story to tell. So yes, absolutely,

0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.679
<v Speaker 2>I think what the CBT around health anxiety tries to

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.680
<v Speaker 2>do is just try and persuade you hard as it is,

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:49.119
<v Speaker 2>to only trust yourself in that regard. If you feel

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.480
<v Speaker 2>like something's wrong, take the appropriate action, but don't allow

0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.360
<v Speaker 2>yourself to be kind of externally persuaded that as you say,

0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.040
<v Speaker 2>you've got a headache, so you've got a brain tumor.

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.600
<v Speaker 2>If you've a headache felt normal and fine before, it's

0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.040
<v Speaker 2>probably still normal and fine.

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:06.000
<v Speaker 3>Exactly.

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:07.879
<v Speaker 1>It's just like I feel like that's the key to

0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.400
<v Speaker 1>life though, right, is to just like think for yourself

0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.560
<v Speaker 1>and not listen to the outside noise, like if we can.

0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.240
<v Speaker 3>It's just like a lot easier said than done, you know.

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.520
<v Speaker 2>It really really is. And I also think that some

0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.800
<v Speaker 2>of the tools that we have available to us today

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.439
<v Speaker 2>make that even harder. I think I included this in

0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 2>the book about how if you do a Google search,

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 2>because the search results or the suggested search is tailored

0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.879
<v Speaker 2>to what you've searched before and what it thinks you

0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.440
<v Speaker 2>might want to see. If you type in does headache mean,

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:47.880
<v Speaker 2>it'll say things like brain cancer, miscarriage, death, rather than

0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:53.720
<v Speaker 2>like dehydration, needs fresh air, should take a nap exactly,

0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.720
<v Speaker 2>all of which I'm much more likely outcomes, but the

0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 2>scarier ones or what will get you to click what

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.680
<v Speaker 2>you keep you online longer. And that's what the company

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.679
<v Speaker 2>providing the search engine wants for you.

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.280
<v Speaker 3>I know that it really is.

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.199
<v Speaker 1>And that's I was going to ask you that, like,

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.800
<v Speaker 1>just through your research, have you found that health anxiety

0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 1>is worse now because we do have so much information

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 1>than we had before.

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, anecdotally, I feel like worse and also more prevalent,

0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 2>more people have it, and the people who have it

0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.800
<v Speaker 2>have it worse. It's really hard to get hard data

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.480
<v Speaker 2>on the number of people out there with health anxiety.

0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.920
<v Speaker 2>It's something that I really struggled with in the research actually,

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.800
<v Speaker 2>because a lot of it is reported differently in different

0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.959
<v Speaker 2>countries and over different times, and it's all done on

0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.280
<v Speaker 2>self reporting as well, on these different questionnaires and they

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.479
<v Speaker 2>change the questionnaires, so it's quite hard to compare and

0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:56.200
<v Speaker 2>look at percentages, but it does seem very reasonable that

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.400
<v Speaker 2>there would be more people with health anxiety now, and

0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:05.480
<v Speaker 2>also that just the constant availability of information about medical

0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.879
<v Speaker 2>conditions would cause those same people to have it worse.

0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.600
<v Speaker 2>It was interesting researching and looking back, though, I found

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 2>some quite interesting references to similar anxieties as we might

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.120
<v Speaker 2>have now about the relationship this has with the Internet,

0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.200
<v Speaker 2>with the wide availability of books and them being cheap

0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and easy to consult in libraries and so on. And

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.040
<v Speaker 2>there's even a really funny satire of this in a

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.760
<v Speaker 2>comic novel from the late nineteenth century called Three Men

0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.239
<v Speaker 2>in a Boat, in which one of the men, who

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.720
<v Speaker 2>is a hypochondriac, writes about how he went into a

0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.320
<v Speaker 2>library worried about some symptoms. He had to look in

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.960
<v Speaker 2>a medical dictionary, and he left with an alphabetical list

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.080
<v Speaker 2>of ailments because the book convinced him that he had

0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.600
<v Speaker 2>all of the things that it listed, which is not

0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 2>dissimilar to how you might feel after a long googling

0:20:58.119 --> 0:20:59.879
<v Speaker 2>session or falling down a few Internet rabbits.

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>It's a It's really interesting because we just went through

0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.520
<v Speaker 1>this having lived whatever forty years of my life before

0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic happened and then going through that, and you know,

0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.080
<v Speaker 1>in my personal life as well as my professional life,

0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.400
<v Speaker 1>I just know people that from all spectrums of like

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.320
<v Speaker 1>being a germaphobe, so to speak, like I'm absolutely not.

0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I just like really don't care if I get blood

0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.120
<v Speaker 1>on my hand, I just wash it off whatever. Whereas

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 1>other people that are doing like a little biopsy in

0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.560
<v Speaker 1>the lab put on like a biohazard level three suit

0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:36.000
<v Speaker 1>just to.

0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:37.439
<v Speaker 3>Like touch it.

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.359
<v Speaker 1>Or people that just work in pathology, I've seen they

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.640
<v Speaker 1>use tissues to open the door knobs and things like that.

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.920
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like those people already kind of had

0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 1>their thing, and I think that the pandemic like threw

0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.919
<v Speaker 1>them over the edge big time. And I was wondering

0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.000
<v Speaker 1>if you think that it's at this like all time

0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.080
<v Speaker 1>time high because of things like the twenty four hour

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.600
<v Speaker 1>news cycle and there was like a ticker that was

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.080
<v Speaker 1>telling you every time a dead body showed up, and

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.960
<v Speaker 1>then social media talking people back and forth and stuff

0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:16.360
<v Speaker 1>like that, Like is that impacting our mental health.

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:19.680
<v Speaker 3>As far as health anxiety anyway?

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the fact that for months and months

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>governments were encouraging or in some cases requiring, behavior that

0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.240
<v Speaker 2>had previously only been the realm of you, as you say,

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:38.400
<v Speaker 2>extreme germophobes, so obviously mask wearing. But then people were

0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.440
<v Speaker 2>doing things like cleaning all of their groceries when they

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.280
<v Speaker 2>got them back from the store, or I did that

0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 2>one myself, or cleaning obsessively cleaning surfaces. And there was

0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of very sensible chat about this is just

0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2>hygiene theater. This doesn't actually have anything to do with COVID.

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.399
<v Speaker 2>This is just done to make you feel like something

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:00.439
<v Speaker 2>is being done. It doesn't actually have any on your

0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.560
<v Speaker 2>chance of getting the condition, all this kind of stuff,

0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.119
<v Speaker 2>and yet I think it did make people feel better

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.320
<v Speaker 2>in some ways. It gave them a sense of control, which,

0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:11.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, who's to argue with that if it helps

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.160
<v Speaker 2>you in a difficult time. But yes, I do think

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the fact that all of these behaviors, previously fringe niche

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>things suddenly became widespread, even required in some areas, and

0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>therefore people kind of incorporated it into their previous beliefs

0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.000
<v Speaker 2>in a way that I don't think is necessarily going

0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:32.160
<v Speaker 2>to be helpful in the long term.

0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt victim to it at first,

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.200
<v Speaker 1>like the first week, you know, just oh, you should

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.399
<v Speaker 1>really wipe down your phone with alcohol after you go

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 1>into the store and just this. And then I did

0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:46.800
<v Speaker 1>it one day and I was like, why am I

0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 1>doing this right now? Like I just worked in a

0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.960
<v Speaker 1>lab with blood and a hepatitis C in HIV like

0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 1>all the time all around me, and I would pick

0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.479
<v Speaker 1>up a pen that had blood on it and not

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.080
<v Speaker 1>even like and just like carry on right, So I'm like,

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:05.080
<v Speaker 1>what this Hell's us any different kind of But I

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.000
<v Speaker 1>think just when you hear it all the time, it

0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.639
<v Speaker 1>starts you start thinking like, well, is this just like

0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.240
<v Speaker 1>totally different than anything else I've ever experienced kind of thing.

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:18.120
<v Speaker 1>And so don't beat yourself up for cleaning your groceries,

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.000
<v Speaker 1>because we've all been we were told to do it,

0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:22.720
<v Speaker 1>like it's just that's that's how it was.

0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:26.640
<v Speaker 2>We were told to do it. And I also think

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.479
<v Speaker 2>that there's this element of the CBT that they do

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:35.480
<v Speaker 2>for hypochondria where it's about doing something that you're afraid

0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.520
<v Speaker 2>of and then waiting to see what the consequences are

0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.280
<v Speaker 2>so as to prove to yourself essentially that actually it's

0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:45.960
<v Speaker 2>not that bad. That the fear was much worse than

0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:49.360
<v Speaker 2>the actual thing. And one of the CBT therapists that

0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I interviewed for the book described this protocol that she

0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.359
<v Speaker 2>does for people with OCD or extreme gemaphobia connected to

0:24:56.400 --> 0:25:01.399
<v Speaker 2>their health anxiety, where if they're of say public transport,

0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:05.679
<v Speaker 2>she'll have them take the bus, touch the handle, and

0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.800
<v Speaker 2>then lick their hand, which is for someone with that

0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.480
<v Speaker 2>problem just unthinkable, could not possibly do it. And then

0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>they do it, and then they wait a week like, actually,

0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.439
<v Speaker 2>I didn't get sick, nothing happened, And then it's easier

0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the next time to get on the bus and touch

0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the handle because they know that that time. So I

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:27.919
<v Speaker 2>did feel a bit like that myself with COVID, that

0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:33.439
<v Speaker 2>you can't possibly be the perfect kind of surgical, sweet

0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:36.560
<v Speaker 2>scrub down of every single thing that's touched the outside world,

0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:40.720
<v Speaker 2>and every time you don't die of that, it becomes

0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:43.320
<v Speaker 2>a bit easier to maybe not clean the groceries every

0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:44.080
<v Speaker 2>single time.

0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's I always would vision like if you've

0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:51.160
<v Speaker 1>ever seen these videos sometimes they show with like ultraviolet

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.719
<v Speaker 1>light on surfaces to show you where all the germs

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:56.760
<v Speaker 1>are and stuff. You're just like, no matter how much

0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.199
<v Speaker 1>I wear gloves. How perfect I am at this? How

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 1>may ask what I There's no way to avoid it.

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 1>There's just not it's it's just it's just them. It's

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 1>just not possible. So I think, even though you think like, Okay,

0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:11.000
<v Speaker 1>I wipe this stuff down and I did this, and

0:26:11.359 --> 0:26:15.280
<v Speaker 1>you live like it's it's just like it's because you

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 1>were exposed to it. That's how life works, right, you

0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.120
<v Speaker 1>really have not. No.

0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:25.520
<v Speaker 2>I also thought a lot about My great uncle was

0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 2>a doctor. He was one of the first gps in

0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 2>the NHS. So he started practicing in nineteen forty five

0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:33.040
<v Speaker 2>in a very rural area, and I remember going to

0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:36.400
<v Speaker 2>visit him with my little sister when he was retired,

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and my sister had impetigo on her hand and it

0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>was getting worse and worse, and my mum asked him

0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 2>if he could recommend anything, and he said, yeah, you know,

0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 2>this is what you should go to the chemists and

0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.360
<v Speaker 2>ask for. But also in the longer term, you need

0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:52.359
<v Speaker 2>to just she needs to be eating dirt more. She

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.639
<v Speaker 2>needs to like sit under the table and just eat dirt.

0:26:56.040 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Because this is a condition that is helped, this propensity

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 2>is by greater exposure to more bacteria, more viruses, more things,

0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.760
<v Speaker 2>And I just I still remember all the time him

0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.119
<v Speaker 2>just saying that she needs to eat dirt and talking

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 2>about how that was a positive thing. So I tried

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:17.240
<v Speaker 2>to keep that in mind when the sort of worst

0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>of the gemophobia hygiene stuff was really getting to me

0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:21.720
<v Speaker 2>during the pandemic.

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm kind of the same way.

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 1>Like I have friends that they make their kids like

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:29.560
<v Speaker 1>wash their hands before they eat and stuff, and I'm like, no,

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:32.199
<v Speaker 1>don't wash your hands, just get it all in, like

0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.480
<v Speaker 1>whatever you've been touching all day, wash them when they're

0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:36.520
<v Speaker 1>soiled kind of thing.

0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:37.080
<v Speaker 3>Like I'm not.

0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:40.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm like a really big proponent of that, just because

0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:43.639
<v Speaker 1>of everything I've learned in school. That just completely makes sense.

0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that people are who have health anxiety, Like,

0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.720
<v Speaker 1>is there is the reason for all different things? They're

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 1>just scared they're going to get sick, or is it

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:58.359
<v Speaker 1>they're scared they're going to die or the two just

0:27:58.480 --> 0:27:59.680
<v Speaker 1>kind of go hand in hand.

0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I think the two go hand in hand. I do

0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:08.800
<v Speaker 2>think hypochondria is a form of fearing mortality. I think

0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:12.760
<v Speaker 2>ultimately that's what it's about. But I think it's a

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:15.200
<v Speaker 2>bit of a variant on that because you're afraid that

0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:17.040
<v Speaker 2>you're going to die, and then you're afraid that before

0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.520
<v Speaker 2>you're going to die, you're going to go through a

0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:23.959
<v Speaker 2>really horrible, prolonged period of illness, hospitalization, all this other stuff.

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I think for people like me who have a serious

0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:29.520
<v Speaker 2>pre existing condition in their past, that's part of it.

0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:32.880
<v Speaker 2>You're quite specific about your fear, like I don't want

0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:34.560
<v Speaker 2>to go back into a hospital and be in an

0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 2>isolation room for a month and have you know, noxious

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>chemotherapy given to me. I'm very very specific about the

0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:45.320
<v Speaker 2>things that I'm afraid of, really because I've experienced them

0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:46.960
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to have to experience them again.

0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 2>And so I do think that it's kind of fear

0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.760
<v Speaker 2>of illness and then fear of death in that order.

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:58.520
<v Speaker 2>But something that writing the book I feel like allowed

0:28:58.520 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>me to see a bit more clearly that I had

0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 2>really understood before, is that the fear of death part

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>is not without cause, because we will all die. So

0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.440
<v Speaker 2>actually being able to separate that and sort of see

0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:14.360
<v Speaker 2>it from a different perspective and just say, well, I

0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>will die one day. Is this all this anxiety, all

0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:21.800
<v Speaker 2>this fear, all this concern and preparation about illness. Is

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 2>this how I want to have spent that time? It

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 2>could happen anytime. So I did find that writing about

0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 2>health anxiety gave me a renewed appreciation for my mortality

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.240
<v Speaker 2>as it were, and it did help to lessen the

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:34.920
<v Speaker 2>anxiety some.

0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I feel like that too.

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Like I used to have a lot of anxiety about

0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 1>death when I was younger, and once I went to

0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:44.920
<v Speaker 1>school for it and started writing about it and just

0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:48.520
<v Speaker 1>really just trying to figure out why things happen and

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:51.600
<v Speaker 1>learn about it, it makes it a little bit easier

0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 1>to figure out that this is just going to happen

0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:56.920
<v Speaker 1>to lots of people just because your anatomy and your

0:29:56.960 --> 0:30:01.240
<v Speaker 1>physiology is not going to work perfectly all the time.

0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:03.440
<v Speaker 3>And even with one of.

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 1>My kids had a little bit of death anxiety a

0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:09.200
<v Speaker 1>few years ago, and I guess my approach worked because

0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:11.760
<v Speaker 1>it kind of went away. I just was like she

0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.280
<v Speaker 1>would just be like, I'm just scared I'm going to die,

0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.360
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, you are going to die. You're

0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:18.239
<v Speaker 1>going to die one day, like and so am I,

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 1>and so is everybody around you. Every single person you

0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.560
<v Speaker 1>know right now is going to die. And this is

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:26.480
<v Speaker 1>when she was like six or seven years old, you know.

0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:29.880
<v Speaker 1>And but I said, but it won't be if you

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 1>just live healthy and stuff, it won't be for a

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:34.080
<v Speaker 1>very long time. So you don't need to worry about

0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:36.960
<v Speaker 1>that right now. And I think a lot of people,

0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:39.680
<v Speaker 1>and I even saw this during the pandemic especially, It's

0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 1>just like there was like this weird thing that like

0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:47.360
<v Speaker 1>nobody should die ever, and everybody just needs to know that,

0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 1>like that's going to happen for people all the time.

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 1>And really, when you think back to like back in

0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 1>the day where the average life span was like thirty

0:30:56.680 --> 0:31:01.000
<v Speaker 1>seven years old, people living to eighty and stuff is remarkable,

0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:04.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, and certainly things are going to take them

0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 1>out just because they're basically pumped alive with drugs as

0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:08.920
<v Speaker 1>it is.

0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, I had my own experience like you and

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.560
<v Speaker 2>your daughter, where my grandmother died when I was five,

0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>and my mother and I flew out. She lived in

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:23.600
<v Speaker 2>South Africa. We flew out for her funeral, and my

0:31:23.680 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>mom had done a really good way, she'd done a

0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:28.200
<v Speaker 2>really good job of like preparing me for everything that

0:31:28.240 --> 0:31:29.880
<v Speaker 2>was going to happen. But the one thing she'd forgotten

0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:33.560
<v Speaker 2>about was that my grandmother was going to be cremated

0:31:33.720 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 2>after her funeral, which was her wish. And so after

0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:40.240
<v Speaker 2>the funeral of them family go with to the crematorium,

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know, everyone knows what that's like. I was five,

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:46.920
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, what are they doing? What are

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 2>they doing to grandma? No one had explained the concept

0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 2>of cremation to me, and that was the particular part

0:31:54.160 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 2>of it that I was absolutely horrified by. But then

0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:58.880
<v Speaker 2>afterwards she gave me the same talk that you did.

0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:00.360
<v Speaker 2>She was like, you know, this was her choice, this

0:32:00.400 --> 0:32:01.800
<v Speaker 2>is what she wanted. She knew she was going to die,

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 2>and she chose this option, and we're just carrying out

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>her wishes and so on, and so I really went

0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>through the whole sort of cycle with that thinking it

0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:12.040
<v Speaker 2>was awful, thinking how could you do that to someone?

0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:13.680
<v Speaker 2>How could that possibly happen to me? Could that happen

0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 2>to other people? And then coming out the other side

0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 2>of oh, I see how actually this is. We're just

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:23.520
<v Speaker 2>we're fulfilling her wishes. And she had a finite number

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 2>of options at this stage and she chose this one.

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:30.120
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I do think that being upfront with people,

0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:34.120
<v Speaker 2>even children and quite young children, they can handle it,

0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's actually better than lying to them. It's better

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>than pretending. I saw some stuff when I was in

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.880
<v Speaker 2>hospital because I was seventeen when I was diagnosed, I

0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>was classified as a child, even though because I was

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:48.400
<v Speaker 2>under eighteen, even though I was two months away from

0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:52.120
<v Speaker 2>being eighteen, and you know, to all extents and purposes,

0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:56.520
<v Speaker 2>had the same cognitive abilities I would have after my birthday.

0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:58.640
<v Speaker 2>But so I was kind of on some children's wards

0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:02.080
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, and I I saw the different approaches people took.

0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:05.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, some parents visiting their children in the wood

0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:09.120
<v Speaker 2>were very like, it's all sunshine and rainbows, and others

0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:11.840
<v Speaker 2>were very like, you're going to have surgery tomorrow. Here

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:15.000
<v Speaker 2>are the risks. We hope they won't happen, but these

0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>are the risks. And those are the parents that had

0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:20.720
<v Speaker 2>chosen to be fully transparent with their children. And those

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:25.440
<v Speaker 2>kids didn't cry, they didn't feel like they'd been lied to,

0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:27.880
<v Speaker 2>they didn't feel like they'd been let into something that

0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:31.400
<v Speaker 2>they weren't prepared for. So it's a difficult choice to

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.080
<v Speaker 2>have to make, but I don't think you can never

0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:36.000
<v Speaker 2>go wrong by being completely honest.

0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and especially because I mean the chances of your kid.

0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:43.560
<v Speaker 1>In my life, it was really weird that I only

0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:46.760
<v Speaker 1>had a couple of family members die before I was

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.920
<v Speaker 1>twenty years old. But sometimes kids have to deal with

0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:53.520
<v Speaker 1>like you did, like a grandparent dying very young or

0:33:53.560 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 1>something like that, and you don't wanted to kind catch

0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:58.719
<v Speaker 1>them off guard because I feel like they can go

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 1>down a rabbit hole like real fast if they're not

0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:03.880
<v Speaker 1>preparing for that, and then all of a sudden someone

0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:05.880
<v Speaker 1>that's really close with them is gone one day.

0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. I think the kind of healthier attitude you

0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 2>can cultivate towards mortality the younger you are, I think

0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:21.480
<v Speaker 2>the easier you will find those hard things, and probably

0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 2>the more you'll get out of life, because you'll understand

0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:27.080
<v Speaker 2>very early on that you only are going to get

0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:30.680
<v Speaker 2>so much of it, and therefore you need to choose

0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:32.360
<v Speaker 2>what you're going to do, don't put things off, and

0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:35.680
<v Speaker 2>so on. So yeah, I do think it's best if

0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>people know the deal.

0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:46.600
<v Speaker 1>If you love this podcast, you are going to love

0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:51.160
<v Speaker 1>the gross Room. There are thousands of videos, posts, photos

0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:53.680
<v Speaker 1>of all different things that have to do with pathology.

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:56.640
<v Speaker 1>Plus there is no censorship, so we could talk about

0:34:57.040 --> 0:34:59.319
<v Speaker 1>anything that we want to without having to have the

0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:02.799
<v Speaker 1>limitation with social media. You can join now for only

0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:05.160
<v Speaker 1>five ninety nine a month, and this gives you access

0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:08.360
<v Speaker 1>to all of the posts going back to twenty and nineteen.

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 1>Join the grossroom dot com today. Have you found hypercontraction

0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:19.720
<v Speaker 1>more common in certain demographics like certain age groups, male, female,

0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:24.840
<v Speaker 1>certain races, or certain geographic locations like I'm sure that

0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:27.640
<v Speaker 1>it's probably higher in people that work in the medical field.

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.160
<v Speaker 1>That would just be That would be my theory, But

0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:32.760
<v Speaker 1>do you have you seen trends in other areas.

0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:37.520
<v Speaker 2>So the only objective data that I've seen about this

0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:40.279
<v Speaker 2>is from the World Health Organization, and it's to do

0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:44.480
<v Speaker 2>with access to healthcare, and they're saying that there's a

0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:47.359
<v Speaker 2>there seems to be a strong association between people who

0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:50.319
<v Speaker 2>don't have access to healthcare have a higher level of

0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 2>health anxiety, which makes total logical sense to me that

0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:57.440
<v Speaker 2>if you're not able to get things checked out by

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 2>a medical professional, if you're not able to be sure

0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:03.760
<v Speaker 2>that you're getting good advice and get that advice whenever

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:06.720
<v Speaker 2>you want it, your level of anxiety would be higher.

0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Then anecdotally, I think, yeah, there's this thing called medical

0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:16.719
<v Speaker 2>student syndrome, which is this idea that everyone, or a

0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.760
<v Speaker 2>high proportion of people, at some point during medical studies

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.000
<v Speaker 2>will develop anxiety that they have one of the things

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:25.279
<v Speaker 2>that they've been studying that just seems to be a

0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:29.439
<v Speaker 2>product of the extreme and rapid exposure to so many

0:36:29.480 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 2>different possibilities in the way that the human body can

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:35.719
<v Speaker 2>malfunction that your brain just starts to take them on

0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:39.799
<v Speaker 2>in that way. Then there's also some stuff which is

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:45.040
<v Speaker 2>a bit harder to define, but groups where there has

0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:51.240
<v Speaker 2>been historically medical bias or a lack of seriousness given

0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.799
<v Speaker 2>to their reporting of symptoms and pain, So women, non

0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:59.480
<v Speaker 2>white people, indigenous folks, basically anyone from a traditionally marginalized group,

0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.839
<v Speaker 2>it seems to be that there are higher levels of

0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:07.000
<v Speaker 2>health anxiety there. But it's really hard to untangle from

0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 2>what is health anxiety, what is hypochondria, and what is

0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.480
<v Speaker 2>people just not taking their illnesses seriously when they present

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.880
<v Speaker 2>with them. So you get in the gender area, you

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.520
<v Speaker 2>get into all this stuff about women just being quote

0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.880
<v Speaker 2>hysterical about their health or having hysterics or having the

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:28.759
<v Speaker 2>vapors rather than maybe having a serious health condition that

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:32.400
<v Speaker 2>just isn't being tested for or treated or considered seriously.

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I found that the condition endometriosis is a really interesting

0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:41.680
<v Speaker 2>case study for this. It's a condition that only affects women,

0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:47.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's been historically very under researched. It just hasn't

0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 2>been something that a lot of money has been poured

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:53.000
<v Speaker 2>into understanding. And so people who do successfully get a

0:37:53.040 --> 0:37:56.560
<v Speaker 2>diagnosis of endometriosis, I think the average is something like

0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:00.680
<v Speaker 2>five years it takes people to get a diagnosis. So

0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>that's a lot of going to the doctor and saying

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm having these problems, I'm having these symptoms, what do

0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:08.080
<v Speaker 2>you think it can be? And being told to just

0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:10.320
<v Speaker 2>go away and come back if it's still a problem

0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:13.640
<v Speaker 2>in six months, and that kind of thing. So again,

0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:16.840
<v Speaker 2>it feels reasonable to me that in that situation you

0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:18.799
<v Speaker 2>would experience anxiety about your health.

0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, I've had one of my best friends

0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.040
<v Speaker 1>had this happen, that she was having all of this

0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:28.560
<v Speaker 1>like pelvic pain and crazy bloating and everything, and you know,

0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:31.279
<v Speaker 1>she was going to her regular gynecologists who just kept

0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:33.720
<v Speaker 1>blowing her off and basically telling her to take motrin.

0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.719
<v Speaker 1>And she finally went to because I was telling her, like,

0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:39.680
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like you might have endometriosis.

0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 1>I would say that it is kind of hard to

0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.640
<v Speaker 1>diagnose because you can't really see it great on imaging

0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:49.839
<v Speaker 1>and you have to go in and do a laparoscopy

0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:51.920
<v Speaker 1>basically to go in and look around to see if

0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:55.200
<v Speaker 1>a person has it. But she went to a specialist

0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 1>doctor who did that for her, and she had it

0:38:58.280 --> 0:39:01.520
<v Speaker 1>all over the place and got surgery to remove certain patches,

0:39:01.920 --> 0:39:05.680
<v Speaker 1>which isn't always the great the greatest, but it did.

0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:09.759
<v Speaker 1>It worked for her for years. And I hear this

0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:14.120
<v Speaker 1>all the time, especially with that particular condition, and it's

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 1>almost upsetting to think that a person goes into the

0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 1>field of gynecology to specialize in female genital health and

0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:22.880
<v Speaker 1>then like just tells you to take tile and all

0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:24.680
<v Speaker 1>or something, right, It's kind of messed up.

0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:30.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And I think there are lots of examples.

0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:33.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I heard one recently from a friend. We

0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:35.319
<v Speaker 2>were just talking about something else and she brought this

0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:38.520
<v Speaker 2>up with when she was a teenager, she was having

0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:43.640
<v Speaker 2>serious pelvic pain around her period. Mother took her to

0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.200
<v Speaker 2>the doctor. Doctor was like, oh, that's just period, Paine,

0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:48.600
<v Speaker 2>She's just having pelvic pain. She's having period. Pain, and

0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I don't think she should be passing

0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:53.880
<v Speaker 2>out and throwing up, you know, every time this happens,

0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:58.400
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't feel normal. A lot of persistence and seeing

0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a different doctor later, it turns out she had a

0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:05.480
<v Speaker 2>really big cyst, benign cyst that was pressing on things

0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:07.480
<v Speaker 2>and that was what was causing the really extreme pain,

0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:10.400
<v Speaker 2>and she had it for months longer than she needed

0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:14.120
<v Speaker 2>to have. If only when they'd first gone to report this,

0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:16.759
<v Speaker 2>it had not been dismissed as oh, that's just what

0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:21.760
<v Speaker 2>periods involve. So yes, I think there is a very

0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:26.880
<v Speaker 2>difficult area of health anxiety that is not really hypochondria

0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:29.800
<v Speaker 2>in the sense that a person does actually have a genuine,

0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:34.800
<v Speaker 2>identifiable illness, but for a variety of reasons, including bias

0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:38.279
<v Speaker 2>and incompetence, it's not being investigated and discovered, and they're

0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:41.080
<v Speaker 2>being told that there's nothing there when actually there is.

0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 2>And I can imagine that being so distressing and cognitively

0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.000
<v Speaker 2>difficult to just rationalize for yourself.

0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 1>In my book, I have over one hundred cases, and

0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:55.279
<v Speaker 1>if you read, the genuine theme for all of these

0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 1>cases is this, it's the same kind of thing like

0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:03.399
<v Speaker 1>they had this, they got blown off. It's really kind

0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:04.719
<v Speaker 1>of amazing, honestly.

0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's something else I took

0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:15.200
<v Speaker 2>away from this project was that you just you have

0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:17.160
<v Speaker 2>in the same way that you have to try and

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:22.239
<v Speaker 2>cut yourself off from external anxiety, from catching conditions from

0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 2>hearing about them on the news, you also have to

0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:30.840
<v Speaker 2>really believe your own feelings and sensations. And you know,

0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:32.520
<v Speaker 2>if you go to the doctor and they say, oh,

0:41:32.560 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 2>that sounds like that, that's nothing, and you don't agree,

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:38.680
<v Speaker 2>you have to say, I disagree, Please look again, or

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:41.080
<v Speaker 2>is there someone else I can speak to? And of

0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 2>course that's much easier to do if you're able to

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:46.320
<v Speaker 2>pay for her second opinion and all these other things,

0:41:46.320 --> 0:41:48.680
<v Speaker 2>but you have to have the confidence in yourself to

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:49.000
<v Speaker 2>do it.

0:41:50.360 --> 0:41:53.200
<v Speaker 1>So you were saying earlier that there definitely seems to

0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:56.319
<v Speaker 1>be an association with people that don't have access to

0:41:56.360 --> 0:41:59.160
<v Speaker 1>healthcare having higher health anxiety.

0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:01.800
<v Speaker 3>Do you I think things like modern day.

0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Things that have been happening, like screening tests for like

0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:09.439
<v Speaker 1>colonoscopies and now even like Kardashians paid to get full

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.360
<v Speaker 1>body MRIs just to kind of see if anything's wrong.

0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:16.239
<v Speaker 1>That's definitely not like a normal screening test. That's something

0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:18.360
<v Speaker 1>you'd have to pay for at this point. But do

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.440
<v Speaker 1>you think things like that ease people's anxiety?

0:42:23.520 --> 0:42:25.920
<v Speaker 2>I screamed when I saw that on the Kardashians, when

0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:29.120
<v Speaker 2>I saw Chris Jenna paying to have like a full

0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:32.960
<v Speaker 2>body MRI scan just because and then being so happy

0:42:32.960 --> 0:42:36.239
<v Speaker 2>when it didn't find anything. I think there's Yeah, there's

0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:38.399
<v Speaker 2>two different things here. The first is what you might

0:42:38.400 --> 0:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>call public health programs, where healthcare providers mandate that you

0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:46.800
<v Speaker 2>all strongly recommend that you have things like colonoscopies and

0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:50.160
<v Speaker 2>perhaps smears and prostate exams at certain ages and at

0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:54.040
<v Speaker 2>certain intervals because that's what the research suggests will help

0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:59.839
<v Speaker 2>catch possible instances of disease early. And then there's elective

0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.879
<v Speaker 2>extra scanning like the full body scans and so on.

0:43:05.200 --> 0:43:07.000
<v Speaker 2>What was interesting to me when I looked into the

0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:09.520
<v Speaker 2>public health angle of it is that there's really been

0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:13.840
<v Speaker 2>a change in consensus about that that when it first

0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 2>became possible to really test for these things at scale

0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:21.120
<v Speaker 2>without it costing vast amounts of money, governments and healthcare

0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:23.279
<v Speaker 2>authorities were like, this is amazing. You know, we can

0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:25.839
<v Speaker 2>just test everybody all the time for everything. And then

0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:28.640
<v Speaker 2>no one will ever have to have a serious illness.

0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:33.040
<v Speaker 2>And so they really went strongly for it, and more

0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:35.360
<v Speaker 2>recently there's been a bit of a pullback from that,

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:39.640
<v Speaker 2>some recognition that actually you need to be sure that

0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:42.279
<v Speaker 2>you're testing people kind of at the right times and

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:46.120
<v Speaker 2>at the right frequency, because testing too much can result

0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:49.759
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of just stress and potentially mental health

0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:53.000
<v Speaker 2>problems from people who get serious anxiety about contact with

0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:58.239
<v Speaker 2>medical tests. Also, unnecessary biopsies of things that you know

0:43:58.440 --> 0:44:02.160
<v Speaker 2>look a bit strange on imaging then actually are totally fine,

0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:04.400
<v Speaker 2>and if you'd never seen them on the image, they

0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:07.560
<v Speaker 2>would have just resolved themselves without anyone ever knowing. And

0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:13.000
<v Speaker 2>just the general kind of looking at the population level outcome,

0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:16.560
<v Speaker 2>like how much colon cancer are we preventing versus how

0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 2>much trauma are we causing with unnecessary colonoscopies. So there

0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:22.239
<v Speaker 2>has been I think a bit of fine tuning of

0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:24.080
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing to try and make sure that

0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:27.839
<v Speaker 2>the balance of that is always right. With the elective

0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:34.200
<v Speaker 2>full body scans and stuff. I think that obviously, if

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:35.600
<v Speaker 2>you've got the money, you can do what you want.

0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.759
<v Speaker 2>But I think from a purely from a health anxiety perspective,

0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:42.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they do anybody any good because I

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:46.319
<v Speaker 2>don't think that in a very rare incidence, maybe it'll

0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:50.239
<v Speaker 2>come back saying you're perfect, you're brilliant. Nothing. We didn't

0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:52.400
<v Speaker 2>see anything at all like you are like the title

0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:53.920
<v Speaker 2>of my book, you're a body made of glass. We

0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:57.120
<v Speaker 2>saw perfectly through you. We didn't see anything that's caused

0:44:57.120 --> 0:45:01.960
<v Speaker 2>for concern. But I think in reality, in most cases

0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:06.000
<v Speaker 2>they will see something. It won't necessarily be something you

0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:07.920
<v Speaker 2>were even aware of. It might not be something that

0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 2>was causing you any trouble or is ever going to

0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:13.120
<v Speaker 2>cause you any trouble, but it did show up on it,

0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:15.279
<v Speaker 2>you might end up getting further tests, you might end

0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:17.200
<v Speaker 2>up spending more money, you might end up going through

0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:22.320
<v Speaker 2>unnecessary procedures, all because you elected to do that that scan.

0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:26.560
<v Speaker 2>So I'd say my personal view is not really something

0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:29.279
<v Speaker 2>we have access to in the UK. And anyway, I

0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:31.440
<v Speaker 2>think my personal view is that unless a doctor I

0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:33.680
<v Speaker 2>trust is telling me it's a good idea, I don't

0:45:33.680 --> 0:45:34.920
<v Speaker 2>think I would go anywhere near it.

0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.960
<v Speaker 1>You're right, actually, because like for example, right now, I

0:45:39.000 --> 0:45:42.600
<v Speaker 1>don't have any concerns about my KARATEID arteries in my opinion,

0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:44.880
<v Speaker 1>they're fine. Right. If I go get one of this

0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:47.520
<v Speaker 1>scan and it's like, oh, you're starting to get karateid

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.040
<v Speaker 1>stenosis and like you're at risk for a stroke in

0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:52.480
<v Speaker 1>a few years, then I would be like, oh, great,

0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:56.040
<v Speaker 1>now I learned about this, and you know, I would

0:45:56.040 --> 0:45:57.960
<v Speaker 1>be like worried about it all the time, even though

0:45:57.960 --> 0:46:00.680
<v Speaker 1>it's not something that maybe has to be addressed right away.

0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Just knowing that that could be a problem in like

0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:06.160
<v Speaker 1>five years from now or something would just give me anxiety.

0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:10.200
<v Speaker 2>So I get that, Yeah, yeah, I think that is

0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:14.839
<v Speaker 2>the overwhelming product of them, is extra anxiety. And I've

0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:17.799
<v Speaker 2>also heard of people getting results from them and then

0:46:17.880 --> 0:46:22.239
<v Speaker 2>making connections that aren't necessarily sound. So you know, they

0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:25.040
<v Speaker 2>get told that, oh, we see some like something with

0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:27.799
<v Speaker 2>the blood vessels in your brain, and then the person's like, oh, well,

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:30.600
<v Speaker 2>I do have terrible migraines. Could this be related? And

0:46:31.080 --> 0:46:35.720
<v Speaker 2>they start building this whole story that isn't necessarily true

0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:39.600
<v Speaker 2>and isn't easily verifiable without serious surgery of the kind

0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:42.239
<v Speaker 2>that no one's going to want to do, and it

0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:46.680
<v Speaker 2>all becomes further material for the health anxiety to feed on,

0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:49.239
<v Speaker 2>which had they never gone and got the scan would

0:46:49.560 --> 0:46:50.680
<v Speaker 2>they never would have known about.

0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:54.200
<v Speaker 1>Have you heard about these apps that they're coming out

0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:57.560
<v Speaker 1>with that are diagnosing people Like I just read about

0:46:57.560 --> 0:47:00.680
<v Speaker 1>one a couple weeks ago that someone is making one

0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:04.000
<v Speaker 1>for sexually transmitted infections in men, so they could take

0:47:04.040 --> 0:47:06.600
<v Speaker 1>a picture of their penis and they could It just

0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:08.600
<v Speaker 1>gives them like a thumbs up or a thumbs down,

0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:11.239
<v Speaker 1>like thumbs up, you're safe to have sex. Thumbs down

0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:13.640
<v Speaker 1>is like you better go get that checked out. They

0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:16.240
<v Speaker 1>don't really specify what it is, but they're like, something

0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:19.759
<v Speaker 1>doesn't look right. I feel like they're trying to make

0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:22.319
<v Speaker 1>these kinds of things. I heard Google was making one

0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:26.680
<v Speaker 1>for skin lesions, so people that find a bump and

0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:28.400
<v Speaker 1>it's a Saturday night, they don't want to have to

0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:30.719
<v Speaker 1>wait until Monday to go to the doctor and find out,

0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:32.759
<v Speaker 1>like they could learn right away if they take a

0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:36.040
<v Speaker 1>picture and upload it to this AI technology. Do you

0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:39.359
<v Speaker 1>think that that's gonna again? I just feel like it's

0:47:39.400 --> 0:47:41.560
<v Speaker 1>like the same thing. There's like nothing that's going to

0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:42.600
<v Speaker 1>make it get better.

0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:45.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, I feel the same about it. I hadn't

0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.239
<v Speaker 2>heard of the STI one, but it doesn't surprise me.

0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:51.279
<v Speaker 2>I think There's been a few different attempts with this

0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:54.040
<v Speaker 2>over the last few years. The most recent is the

0:47:54.080 --> 0:47:56.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of machine learning AI aspect of it, where they

0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.560
<v Speaker 2>claim that, oh, you know, we can train a product

0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:03.120
<v Speaker 2>to recognize the difference between a cancerous lesion and a

0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.480
<v Speaker 2>benign one or whatever. But if you think back to

0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:10.000
<v Speaker 2>something like Elizabeth Holmes and Theronos, that's kind of what

0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:11.640
<v Speaker 2>she always claiming she could do, is you know, a

0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:15.120
<v Speaker 2>pinprick of blood, she could diagnose a vast array of

0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:17.880
<v Speaker 2>different conditions that you've never been able to diagnose with

0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:21.560
<v Speaker 2>that little material before. And then now you can also

0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:25.160
<v Speaker 2>get these home vitamin and hormone tests that again with

0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:27.560
<v Speaker 2>like a relatively small blood sample, they claim to be

0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:31.600
<v Speaker 2>able to find all these underlying problems for you. And

0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's ever it's ever gonna do anything

0:48:36.440 --> 0:48:39.920
<v Speaker 2>apart from you know, it's either going to say you're

0:48:40.000 --> 0:48:41.680
<v Speaker 2>you're fine, you're great, in which case what was the

0:48:41.680 --> 0:48:43.680
<v Speaker 2>point in the first place, Or it's gonna say you

0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:46.960
<v Speaker 2>should go to the doctor. The app is never going

0:48:47.000 --> 0:48:50.719
<v Speaker 2>to actually give you, give you a prescription, or make

0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:54.759
<v Speaker 2>you a surgery appointment or anything. So maybe you should

0:48:54.800 --> 0:48:56.680
<v Speaker 2>have just gone to the doctor in the first place.

0:48:57.080 --> 0:49:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I know, right, and imagine, like like my family, doctors

0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:04.759
<v Speaker 1>closed on Fridays. So it's like, imagine something happens on

0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Thursday night and then you have to wait four days.

0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:10.320
<v Speaker 1>And on top of that, this app has now told

0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.200
<v Speaker 1>you like something's not right. It would just make it

0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:13.800
<v Speaker 1>even worse.

0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:19.000
<v Speaker 2>I think, do you absolutely? I do? I do feel

0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.879
<v Speaker 2>that thing about the doctor's office being closed. I mean

0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:26.480
<v Speaker 2>I once had a very ridiculous situation where it was

0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:29.719
<v Speaker 2>a long holiday weekend in the UK and on the

0:49:30.040 --> 0:49:33.080
<v Speaker 2>on Friday night, I'd started noticing my hair was falling

0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:36.040
<v Speaker 2>out at what felt like a much higher rate than

0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:37.560
<v Speaker 2>was normal, Like you shouldn't be able to just like

0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:40.839
<v Speaker 2>pull handfuls of it out by the Sunday night, and

0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:43.320
<v Speaker 2>everything's closed on Monday as well because it's a holiday.

0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:45.520
<v Speaker 2>By Sunday night, I'm like, I've got to talk to

0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:48.880
<v Speaker 2>someone about this. So I called the sort of official

0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:52.520
<v Speaker 2>non emergency helpline for the NHS in the UK, and

0:49:52.800 --> 0:49:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I end up with this call operator, this guy, and

0:49:56.239 --> 0:49:59.959
<v Speaker 2>he's just reading out responses that the computer is feed

0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:02.759
<v Speaker 2>him and it doesn't have an option for one if

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:06.000
<v Speaker 2>pulling out handfuls of hair. So it just keeps taking

0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.239
<v Speaker 2>us round and round in a circle until he eventually

0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:13.400
<v Speaker 2>asks me the question are you currently bleeding? And I

0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:15.960
<v Speaker 2>think this was meant to be a triarge question, because

0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:19.279
<v Speaker 2>if someone calls that number with an actual, you know,

0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:22.719
<v Speaker 2>blood spilling emergency, they're going to dispatch an ambulance. I

0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:24.920
<v Speaker 2>was on my period, so I was like, yes, I

0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:27.919
<v Speaker 2>am currently bleeding. Oh my god. The co operator went

0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:30.880
<v Speaker 2>completely mad, started trying to call paramedics, and it actually

0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:33.000
<v Speaker 2>took me quite It was quite difficult to like talk

0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:36.480
<v Speaker 2>him down and persuade him, by which time by the

0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:38.759
<v Speaker 2>time I'd calmed him down and called off the paramedics

0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:40.759
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, I was like, I think this can wait

0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:43.399
<v Speaker 2>till Tuesday morning. To be honest, I think the hair thing,

0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm good. Never mind the whole chaos that doing that

0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:51.600
<v Speaker 2>tried to cause really gave me some perspective on it.

0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:53.200
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, I know, this felt unbearable and

0:50:53.200 --> 0:50:55.640
<v Speaker 2>like I couldn't wait till Tuesday. I think it can now.

0:50:56.280 --> 0:50:58.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, Like and what I mean, what are they

0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:01.719
<v Speaker 1>really going to do anyway for that? It's not I mean,

0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:04.840
<v Speaker 1>it is an emergency when you're losing your hair just

0:51:04.880 --> 0:51:09.920
<v Speaker 1>because cosmetically it bothers you, right, but like you'll survive.

0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. Yeah.

0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Have you come across cases where people are the opposite

0:51:17.480 --> 0:51:23.479
<v Speaker 1>of hypochondriacs, so they just they just completely don't get

0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:27.239
<v Speaker 1>treatment ever, I mean usually in the hospital. It would

0:51:27.280 --> 0:51:29.719
<v Speaker 1>either be like people that don't have insurance, which you

0:51:29.760 --> 0:51:32.760
<v Speaker 1>could understand because they like, at least in the US,

0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:35.359
<v Speaker 1>it could cost you a lot of money if you

0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:37.880
<v Speaker 1>can go to the hospital and get treatment, but it'll

0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 1>cost you if you don't have coverage. But then there's

0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:45.759
<v Speaker 1>just like this whole other subset of people that came

0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:49.359
<v Speaker 1>in with completely like this. I'll never forget this one

0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:54.279
<v Speaker 1>messtectomy that we got one time double mestectomy and the

0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:55.000
<v Speaker 1>tumor of.

0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:57.440
<v Speaker 3>On the one.

0:51:57.320 --> 0:52:00.640
<v Speaker 1>Breast was so large it was like bigger than her bob,

0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:02.919
<v Speaker 1>Like I can't I don't even know how she could

0:52:02.920 --> 0:52:03.640
<v Speaker 1>have worn a bra.

0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:05.320
<v Speaker 3>It wouldn't even a fit.

0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Like it just was like having two boobs on one

0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:12.560
<v Speaker 1>boob and just thinking like, how how did this get

0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:15.120
<v Speaker 1>to this point? How did you finally decide to come

0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:17.280
<v Speaker 1>in here right now when this thing is like growing

0:52:17.320 --> 0:52:20.479
<v Speaker 1>through your skin and smells and so have you seen

0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:21.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff like.

0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:26.520
<v Speaker 2>That, I'm not aware of a sort of official condition

0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:29.000
<v Speaker 2>that is the opposite of hypochondria in that sense. I

0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:31.240
<v Speaker 2>don't know what you might call it, kind of medical

0:52:31.280 --> 0:52:36.319
<v Speaker 2>blindness or just a total refusal to experience what's going

0:52:36.320 --> 0:52:38.719
<v Speaker 2>on in your body. It might you might think of

0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:41.120
<v Speaker 2>it perhaps as a subset of body dysmorphia. You know,

0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:44.759
<v Speaker 2>someone's so completely dissociated from their body that they just

0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:49.040
<v Speaker 2>don't experience what's happening in it. I did have an

0:52:49.040 --> 0:52:52.640
<v Speaker 2>incident personally that is a bit similar to what you're

0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:57.640
<v Speaker 2>describing with that misectomy patient, where the initial consultations that

0:52:57.719 --> 0:53:01.440
<v Speaker 2>led to my diagnosis with Hudkin's nymphoma. I had this

0:53:01.480 --> 0:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>one with the oncologist after he'd sort of given the

0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:07.680
<v Speaker 2>diagnosis of the original biopsy. He was trying to get

0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:10.319
<v Speaker 2>more information so he could start creating a treatment plant,

0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:13.759
<v Speaker 2>and he said something like, apart from that mass in

0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:17.720
<v Speaker 2>your neck, have you noticed anything else like that around

0:53:17.760 --> 0:53:22.080
<v Speaker 2>your body? And I went completely horrified because I'd not

0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:24.280
<v Speaker 2>noticed the mass in my neck that he was talking about,

0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:28.719
<v Speaker 2>and with hindsight, I should have done. It was nearly

0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:30.719
<v Speaker 2>as big as a tennis ball. It was like by

0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:33.120
<v Speaker 2>my collar bone and like him. You can see it

0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:37.839
<v Speaker 2>in photographs of me. In the months preceding this diagnosis,

0:53:38.040 --> 0:53:40.200
<v Speaker 2>I'd not noticed it at all. It had grown so

0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.839
<v Speaker 2>slowly and so gradually that I guess my mind had

0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:47.200
<v Speaker 2>just accepted the changes in my body as being that's

0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:50.360
<v Speaker 2>just my body, that's just what it does. It It

0:53:50.400 --> 0:53:53.640
<v Speaker 2>didn't register as an intruder or something out of the ordinary.

0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.440
<v Speaker 2>So bizarre as it might seem, I can kind of

0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:01.239
<v Speaker 2>maybe understand how that could happen, although that doesn't sound

0:54:01.280 --> 0:54:04.040
<v Speaker 2>like a much more extreme version of it, but.

0:54:04.440 --> 0:54:07.000
<v Speaker 1>The same exact thing just happened to my father in law,

0:54:07.440 --> 0:54:10.160
<v Speaker 1>Like he had throw cancer, and when I went to

0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:12.759
<v Speaker 1>visit him right after he got diagnosed, I was like

0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:15.400
<v Speaker 1>palpating his neck and it was I could feel it.

0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Like as soon as I went like that, I was like, whoa,

0:54:18.120 --> 0:54:21.640
<v Speaker 1>And I'm like, you didn't feel he's like he's like,

0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:24.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean, were solid there.

0:54:24.480 --> 0:54:26.040
<v Speaker 3>But I didn't really think anything of it.

0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:28.000
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, you didn't think a giant mass

0:54:28.000 --> 0:54:29.000
<v Speaker 1>growing in your neck? Was that?

0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:31.520
<v Speaker 3>It was just like funny, like messing with them.

0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:35.040
<v Speaker 1>But I could see especially in your case though, because

0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:37.680
<v Speaker 1>you're saying when you had the recurrence of the Hodgkins.

0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:39.719
<v Speaker 3>This is when you didn't see it.

0:54:41.560 --> 0:54:45.040
<v Speaker 2>No, the first time, it originally okay, so with the

0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:48.400
<v Speaker 2>original diagnosis, and I think if I was trying to

0:54:48.400 --> 0:54:51.200
<v Speaker 2>find an explanation for it, i'd say it's because the

0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:54.839
<v Speaker 2>idea of having cancer was like just so far from

0:54:54.920 --> 0:54:57.600
<v Speaker 2>my mind it didn't even register as a possibility. So

0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:01.000
<v Speaker 2>I guess therefore the lump just didn't register. And I

0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:02.600
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, I guess this is just like the

0:55:02.640 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>thing bodies do sometimes they become a bit squishy in

0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:08.680
<v Speaker 2>places where they weren't squishy. I don't know. Of course.

0:55:08.719 --> 0:55:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Then the second time, when I was sent off to college,

0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and then I was obsessively checking because it was very

0:55:15.320 --> 0:55:19.400
<v Speaker 2>distressing to realize that you kind of had visible cancer

0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 2>for weeks, if not months, and just not noticed. So

0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:25.879
<v Speaker 2>after that, I was like, well, that's never happening again.

0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:28.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be very sure that I know exactly

0:55:28.360 --> 0:55:30.680
<v Speaker 2>what's going on. And that's how I found the recurrence

0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:33.320
<v Speaker 2>of it quite early, because I was checking.

0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Basically, Yeah, I mean, that's good that you were like that,

0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:40.480
<v Speaker 1>because that's why you have such a good prognosis.

0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:42.520
<v Speaker 3>I think, because you found that right away, and.

0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:46.440
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't beat yourself up over that though, maybe because

0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:49.920
<v Speaker 1>I feel like you were seventeen, like who thinks about

0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:53.600
<v Speaker 1>You're just like thinking about like having a good time

0:55:53.680 --> 0:55:56.040
<v Speaker 1>in high school and this and that, Like you're not

0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:59.520
<v Speaker 1>really checked into your body that much at that point, I.

0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Think, definitely not. I think I was also especially not

0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:08.760
<v Speaker 2>in tune with my body because I was not someone

0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:11.880
<v Speaker 2>who was athletic. I didn't do like dance or anything

0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:15.440
<v Speaker 2>else where you are like training your awareness of your

0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:19.960
<v Speaker 2>body or anything like that. So I say, in contrast

0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:22.400
<v Speaker 2>with my younger sister, who was like a gymnast and stuff,

0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:25.719
<v Speaker 2>she definitely would have noticed just because she worked so

0:56:25.880 --> 0:56:29.040
<v Speaker 2>much with her body. She would have noticed any difference immediately.

0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:31.920
<v Speaker 2>That was just not how I lived. What was very

0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:36.759
<v Speaker 2>interesting in the diagnostic process was that when my mum

0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:40.000
<v Speaker 2>first took me to the doctor was not because she'd

0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:41.960
<v Speaker 2>noticed a lump or anything. It was because I had

0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:45.080
<v Speaker 2>really bad fatigue and some other stuff that she just

0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:46.880
<v Speaker 2>thought it would be a good idea to talk to

0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:51.120
<v Speaker 2>a doctor about. The doctor was initially, and I think

0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:53.279
<v Speaker 2>this is totally reasonable given the age I was, he

0:56:53.360 --> 0:56:56.879
<v Speaker 2>was pretty sure I had glandula fever, which I think

0:56:56.960 --> 0:56:59.640
<v Speaker 2>is quite common in girls that age and the most

0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:02.640
<v Speaker 2>likely explanation for the set of symptoms we'd given him.

0:57:02.760 --> 0:57:05.080
<v Speaker 2>So he did the blood test for that sent it off.

0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.080
<v Speaker 2>When that came back negative, you should have seen how

0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:11.040
<v Speaker 2>fast that man moved like he was like, oh, this

0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:13.720
<v Speaker 2>is not and suddenly I was the same day getting

0:57:13.880 --> 0:57:16.440
<v Speaker 2>x rays all this other stuff, and there was a

0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 2>real even though I didn't know it was like cancer yet,

0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:20.600
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, this is all stepped up like

0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:25.040
<v Speaker 2>five years, which that was. That was very interesting, actually,

0:57:25.080 --> 0:57:27.840
<v Speaker 2>how how fast the tone of the whole thing changed.

0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:30.040
<v Speaker 3>It is interesting.

0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:34.919
<v Speaker 1>My my little one, who's now nine, has a an

0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:38.880
<v Speaker 1>autoimmune disease of her bones. And when we first got diagnosed,

0:57:39.000 --> 0:57:41.960
<v Speaker 1>because you know here too in America, wherever you're at,

0:57:42.000 --> 0:57:45.440
<v Speaker 1>it's like it takes weeks to get doctor's appointments and

0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:50.400
<v Speaker 1>it's always I couldn't believe what happened when like she

0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:53.280
<v Speaker 1>went for knee pain and then it was like she

0:57:53.360 --> 0:57:55.240
<v Speaker 1>got I brought her to the local place to get

0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:59.080
<v Speaker 1>the X ray. Within twenty four hours, I got a

0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:01.760
<v Speaker 1>phone call for them. They said, come back, we want

0:58:01.760 --> 0:58:03.400
<v Speaker 1>to do our other leg And then I got a

0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:06.000
<v Speaker 1>phone call from my pediatrician and they were like, we

0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:07.840
<v Speaker 1>made an appointment for you at eight o'clock in the

0:58:07.840 --> 0:58:11.600
<v Speaker 1>morning to see the children's hospital specialist. Like, and it's

0:58:11.720 --> 0:58:14.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of funny when there's like really emergencies, how fast

0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:15.320
<v Speaker 1>it can move.

0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:18.120
<v Speaker 3>I've never experienced that.

0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Besides that, no, it sounds very similar, absolutely. And what

0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:27.080
<v Speaker 2>was funny as well is that after the diagnosis is

0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:30.360
<v Speaker 2>all complete and I'd started treatment, and I was copied

0:58:30.400 --> 0:58:33.040
<v Speaker 2>in on all of the letters that the different doctors

0:58:33.040 --> 0:58:35.560
<v Speaker 2>were exchanging, and I got this c seed version of

0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:38.760
<v Speaker 2>a letter that the cancer specialist had sent to the GP,

0:58:39.520 --> 0:58:43.360
<v Speaker 2>and it was congratulating him on how quickly he'd like

0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:47.400
<v Speaker 2>escalated everything because he'd done it like way ahead of

0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:50.120
<v Speaker 2>the sort of NHS benchmark for this and all this

0:58:50.200 --> 0:58:51.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, and you're saying like this is all

0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:53.919
<v Speaker 2>like testament to your good judgment and like well done,

0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:56.600
<v Speaker 2>everyone involved work really well. And I remember reading this

0:58:56.640 --> 0:58:58.880
<v Speaker 2>At the time, I was very like teenage and zelkey

0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:01.000
<v Speaker 2>about the whole cancer thing, and I was like, why

0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:04.160
<v Speaker 2>is he getting like special praise for ruining my life?

0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:08.919
<v Speaker 2>But obviously that's not quite how it was. And now

0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:11.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm very grateful that that doctor did that, But at

0:59:11.400 --> 0:59:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the time that was my reaction.

0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:14.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh man, I totally get that.

0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:17.320
<v Speaker 1>So but aside from this book that you have that,

0:59:17.480 --> 0:59:19.760
<v Speaker 1>it's just it's awesome by the way I think it's

0:59:19.840 --> 0:59:22.600
<v Speaker 1>it's I think it could like so many people could

0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:25.520
<v Speaker 1>relate to it, and I think that a lot of

0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:28.480
<v Speaker 1>people don't talk about it as much. But everybody you

0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:31.560
<v Speaker 1>know is always freaking out about something, and the Google

0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:34.400
<v Speaker 1>thing is real, right, But aside from that, you have

0:59:34.520 --> 0:59:36.480
<v Speaker 1>this podcast that's called She Done It?

0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:39.680
<v Speaker 3>How did you? What made you decide to start that?

0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:44.919
<v Speaker 2>So? She Done It is about what's called Golden Age

0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:48.440
<v Speaker 2>detective fiction, which is detective fiction published roughly between the

0:59:48.520 --> 0:59:50.160
<v Speaker 2>end of the First World War and the start of

0:59:50.200 --> 0:59:53.640
<v Speaker 2>the second, where there was this golden age, this incredible

0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:57.200
<v Speaker 2>proliferation and popularity for what we now call like the

0:59:57.240 --> 1:00:00.480
<v Speaker 2>classic crime novel, the traditional Who Done It? The Agatha Christie,

1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:03.880
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. And I just always loved those books.

1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:07.160
<v Speaker 2>But the more I sort of learned about them, and

1:00:07.200 --> 1:00:11.600
<v Speaker 2>the more I read beyond the famous popular Agatha Christie ones,

1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the more I realized that there were dozens, if not

1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:18.760
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of authors writing this stuff at this time, and

1:00:18.840 --> 1:00:22.800
<v Speaker 2>they were doing things like incorporating real life cases from

1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen twenties and a few decades earlier into their fiction.

1:00:27.120 --> 1:00:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And then this fiction was being read by hundreds of

1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:32.560
<v Speaker 2>thousands of people, the majority of them women, and it

1:00:32.680 --> 1:00:34.919
<v Speaker 2>started to seem to me like this was a really

1:00:34.960 --> 1:00:39.080
<v Speaker 2>interesting piece of social history, This was really interesting force

1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:41.040
<v Speaker 2>of popular culture that ended up in a lot of

1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:42.760
<v Speaker 2>people's lives. And of course we still read a lot

1:00:42.760 --> 1:00:44.800
<v Speaker 2>of those books today, they still get made into films

1:00:44.800 --> 1:00:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and TV shows. So I really just wanted an excuse

1:00:48.240 --> 1:00:52.400
<v Speaker 2>to find out more about this and learn, I suppose,

1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:54.720
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, that's why I started it. And I've

1:00:54.800 --> 1:00:57.800
<v Speaker 2>been going five years in counting now, and people say

1:00:57.800 --> 1:01:02.080
<v Speaker 2>to me, like, isn't this just incredible niche? You talk

1:01:02.120 --> 1:01:05.280
<v Speaker 2>about these books mostly from Britain, although there are some

1:01:05.560 --> 1:01:08.640
<v Speaker 2>writers from other countries as well. Write you talk about

1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:10.760
<v Speaker 2>these writers that wrote in this very specific niche and

1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:14.560
<v Speaker 2>this very specific little piece of time, And it's true.

1:01:15.040 --> 1:01:17.120
<v Speaker 2>But I've been doing an episode every other week for

1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:19.640
<v Speaker 2>five years and I still feel like I have only

1:01:19.680 --> 1:01:22.160
<v Speaker 2>just scratched the surface of all it has to tell me.

1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:26.600
<v Speaker 2>And also one of those writers is one of the

1:01:26.640 --> 1:01:30.600
<v Speaker 2>best selling novelists of all time, who's ever lived, Agatha Christie.

1:01:30.640 --> 1:01:34.960
<v Speaker 2>So I don't feel like it's that limited as a

1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:36.600
<v Speaker 2>scope of a project, really.

1:01:37.720 --> 1:01:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And that's the whole point of podcast because otherwise

1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:44.160
<v Speaker 1>you could just listen. I mean, before a podcast, it

1:01:44.240 --> 1:01:46.880
<v Speaker 1>was like there's radio shows or TV shows and they're

1:01:46.960 --> 1:01:50.760
<v Speaker 1>more general usually, And that's what's cool because really, if

1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:52.800
<v Speaker 1>you're interested in anything in the world and you just

1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:55.000
<v Speaker 1>go on the podcast app and search for it, like

1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:57.520
<v Speaker 1>some podcasts is going to pop up that you would

1:01:57.760 --> 1:02:00.040
<v Speaker 1>whether it's taking care of plants or looking at.

1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:01.440
<v Speaker 3>True crime or whatever.

1:02:01.600 --> 1:02:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Like there's there's something for everyone, and I think that's

1:02:05.080 --> 1:02:09.040
<v Speaker 1>cool that you have your own thing, you know, and

1:02:09.080 --> 1:02:11.480
<v Speaker 1>there's stuff an interest.

1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's what's been really interesting about it is that

1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I didn't start it with any prospect of it being

1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:20.600
<v Speaker 2>like a work project. Really, it was very much just

1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:26.280
<v Speaker 2>a hobby thing. I was making podcasts professionally for other companies,

1:02:26.320 --> 1:02:28.400
<v Speaker 2>mostly about current affairs and politics because that was my

1:02:28.480 --> 1:02:32.520
<v Speaker 2>journalistic background. So this was like my fun side project,

1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and thousands of people started turning up and listening to it,

1:02:37.680 --> 1:02:39.360
<v Speaker 2>to the point where I was like, oh, maybe this

1:02:39.520 --> 1:02:43.440
<v Speaker 2>is actually something that people other than me just care about.

1:02:43.840 --> 1:02:46.880
<v Speaker 2>And now the podcast is distributed by the BBC, Like

1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:49.760
<v Speaker 2>it's it's really kind of found an audience in a

1:02:49.800 --> 1:02:50.960
<v Speaker 2>way that I did not predict.

1:02:52.200 --> 1:02:55.439
<v Speaker 1>See, I would predict that because I think my mom

1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:58.560
<v Speaker 1>actually just wrote an article on my website about this

1:02:58.720 --> 1:03:02.160
<v Speaker 1>fascination with like the true crime mystery thing with women.

1:03:02.240 --> 1:03:06.200
<v Speaker 1>It's like very strong and the true Crime podcast and all.

1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.400
<v Speaker 1>There's like a certain age group of women that are

1:03:09.440 --> 1:03:13.080
<v Speaker 1>into it, and my mom is in her she's in

1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:16.160
<v Speaker 1>her mid sixties, and she was talking about like reading

1:03:16.200 --> 1:03:18.080
<v Speaker 1>all those types of books when she was younger and

1:03:18.080 --> 1:03:22.200
<v Speaker 1>how it kind of transformed into, you know, being obsessed

1:03:22.240 --> 1:03:24.480
<v Speaker 1>with murders today and stuff like that, because it's just

1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:28.240
<v Speaker 1>like a thing women like whether it's like maybe they're

1:03:28.280 --> 1:03:31.600
<v Speaker 1>just it's the same. It's it's almost kind of same

1:03:31.640 --> 1:03:35.040
<v Speaker 1>as health anxiety in a way that there's this there's

1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:37.880
<v Speaker 1>this anxiety of like something really bad happening and you

1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:41.200
<v Speaker 1>hear it happen to other people and that gives you

1:03:41.280 --> 1:03:44.440
<v Speaker 1>some kind of interest and also just like maybe not

1:03:45.000 --> 1:03:47.280
<v Speaker 1>having just like a more normal life and it being

1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a little boring and like wanting to read stuff that's

1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:53.480
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more dramatic and exciting. So I think

1:03:53.480 --> 1:03:55.200
<v Speaker 1>it's I think it's awesome what you're doing.

1:03:56.600 --> 1:03:58.919
<v Speaker 2>Oh thank you. Yeah, I really enjoy it, and it's

1:03:59.040 --> 1:04:02.560
<v Speaker 2>it's really it's really interesting and endlessly fascinating to be

1:04:02.600 --> 1:04:04.200
<v Speaker 2>how many other people enjoy it as well.

1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Besides your book and your podcast and you have another

1:04:08.640 --> 1:04:10.200
<v Speaker 1>book to what's your other book called.

1:04:11.600 --> 1:04:13.480
<v Speaker 2>My first book was called The Way to the Sea

1:04:13.560 --> 1:04:16.680
<v Speaker 2>that came out in twenty nineteen, and that is the

1:04:16.760 --> 1:04:19.440
<v Speaker 2>subtitle of it is The Forgotten Histories of the Thames Estuary.

1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:22.520
<v Speaker 2>So it's a very different kind of book, same nonfiction

1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:28.440
<v Speaker 2>type genre, but it's a memoir about sailing and growing

1:04:28.520 --> 1:04:31.080
<v Speaker 2>up in this particular part of the UK around the Thames,

1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:36.040
<v Speaker 2>because I had this somewhat unusual situation where my parents

1:04:36.040 --> 1:04:38.560
<v Speaker 2>are from South Africa and they came to the UK

1:04:38.760 --> 1:04:41.360
<v Speaker 2>in the early eighties on a boat that they built themselves.

1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:45.000
<v Speaker 2>They sailed from South from Cape Town to England and

1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:48.480
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of how our family exists in the way

1:04:48.480 --> 1:04:49.040
<v Speaker 2>that it does.

1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:50.800
<v Speaker 3>So that's so cool.

1:04:53.120 --> 1:04:56.640
<v Speaker 1>It's like such a unique experience to grow up and

1:04:57.000 --> 1:04:59.520
<v Speaker 1>having done that and your parents do and that stuff

1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:00.240
<v Speaker 1>was really or.

1:05:01.960 --> 1:05:05.720
<v Speaker 2>And it's very strange. I mean, my sister and I've

1:05:05.720 --> 1:05:07.600
<v Speaker 2>talked about this a lot that when we were growing up,

1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:10.600
<v Speaker 2>we just thought that everybody's parents had a boat and

1:05:10.640 --> 1:05:13.400
<v Speaker 2>just like went places in it whenever they felt like it,

1:05:14.000 --> 1:05:15.800
<v Speaker 2>and in the way that you do when you're a child,

1:05:15.800 --> 1:05:18.320
<v Speaker 2>whatever you're used to is what's normal. And it was

1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:19.880
<v Speaker 2>quite a lot later and we're like, oh, this is

1:05:19.960 --> 1:05:22.760
<v Speaker 2>not normal. This is not normal that. I mean, my

1:05:22.880 --> 1:05:25.680
<v Speaker 2>retired parents are still like scooting about the world in

1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:28.840
<v Speaker 2>their boat. They've you know, recently just come back from Canada.

1:05:29.000 --> 1:05:31.960
<v Speaker 2>All this kind of stuff, you know, crossing the Atlantic

1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:33.720
<v Speaker 2>is not something they're afraid of.

1:05:34.440 --> 1:05:36.760
<v Speaker 3>That's that's so cool. It's like really cool.

1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:39.320
<v Speaker 1>It's just so much different than how I grew up with,

1:05:39.400 --> 1:05:42.080
<v Speaker 1>like in my suburbs of New Jersey.

1:05:42.160 --> 1:05:43.840
<v Speaker 3>It's just it's it's really cool.

1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.240
<v Speaker 1>I love that everything, like your two different books are

1:05:47.280 --> 1:05:50.560
<v Speaker 1>completely opposite subjects, and then your podcast too. I just

1:05:50.600 --> 1:05:54.640
<v Speaker 1>love that you're into all these different things. It's really neat.

1:05:55.680 --> 1:05:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I try and see it as a

1:05:58.000 --> 1:06:00.480
<v Speaker 2>as a virtue rather than a limitation. But yes, it

1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:04.000
<v Speaker 2>is true that I tend to have these very discreet

1:06:04.720 --> 1:06:08.760
<v Speaker 2>and obsessive interests in something, and then once I've produced

1:06:08.760 --> 1:06:10.560
<v Speaker 2>the thing that I want to produce about it, whether

1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:12.800
<v Speaker 2>it's a book or whatever, then I'm done with it.

1:06:12.840 --> 1:06:14.840
<v Speaker 2>That's everything I have to say on that subject. Move

1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:18.000
<v Speaker 2>on to a new thing. I don't understand people who

1:06:18.040 --> 1:06:20.160
<v Speaker 2>like keep revisiting the same thing.

1:06:21.040 --> 1:06:24.040
<v Speaker 1>And so what is next for you? Like, are you

1:06:24.080 --> 1:06:25.240
<v Speaker 1>working on anything new?

1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:30.600
<v Speaker 2>I am working on a possible idea for a new book, which,

1:06:30.640 --> 1:06:33.800
<v Speaker 2>in a great departure from me, is actually hopefully going

1:06:33.880 --> 1:06:36.400
<v Speaker 2>to be related to the same kind of stuff I

1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:39.360
<v Speaker 2>discuss on my podcast, So rather than being a completely

1:06:39.400 --> 1:06:41.640
<v Speaker 2>new subject, hopefully it's going to draw on some of

1:06:41.680 --> 1:06:44.320
<v Speaker 2>the research I've done for that, so it'll be about

1:06:44.480 --> 1:06:47.640
<v Speaker 2>women and crime and the detective fiction from the early

1:06:47.680 --> 1:06:48.560
<v Speaker 2>twentieth century.

1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:50.000
<v Speaker 3>I love it.

1:06:50.040 --> 1:06:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Is there anywhere you want to say that people could

1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:52.920
<v Speaker 1>reach you?

1:06:53.120 --> 1:06:54.240
<v Speaker 3>Or obviously they.

1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Could find your podcast just on wherever you can get podcasts, right.

1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or if you go to my website is Caroline

1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Crampton dot com and that has links out to the

1:07:04.280 --> 1:07:05.440
<v Speaker 2>various different things.

1:07:05.880 --> 1:07:06.920
<v Speaker 3>All right, awesome, Well.

1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for being here. It was really great.

1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:11.160
<v Speaker 2>It was great to talk to you. Thank you so

1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:11.840
<v Speaker 2>much for having me.

1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Mother Nos Death. As a reminder,

1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:23.720
<v Speaker 1>my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a

1:07:23.760 --> 1:07:28.120
<v Speaker 1>master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1:07:29.240 --> 1:07:31.400
<v Speaker 1>I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1:07:31.480 --> 1:07:35.120
<v Speaker 1>or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:40.360
<v Speaker 1>a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1:07:40.400 --> 1:07:43.920
<v Speaker 1>media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1:07:43.960 --> 1:07:47.880
<v Speaker 1>on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:52.760
<v Speaker 1>healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

1:07:52.800 --> 1:07:55.880
<v Speaker 1>that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

1:07:55.920 --> 1:07:58.560
<v Speaker 1>in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1:07:58.600 --> 1:08:02.360
<v Speaker 1>subjects at the time of public. If you are having

1:08:02.440 --> 1:08:06.400
<v Speaker 1>a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:10.800
<v Speaker 1>medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1:08:10.840 --> 1:08:15.560
<v Speaker 1>care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1:08:15.640 --> 1:08:20.200
<v Speaker 1>subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1:08:20.240 --> 1:08:32.360
<v Speaker 1>anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks