1
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,239
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

3
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 2: is Robert.

4
00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

5
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 2: In today's episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're

6
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 2: returning once more to the subterranean world. This is, of

7
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,639
Speaker 2: course a recurring theme on our show. We often venture

8
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 2: into topics concerning the deep ocean. We often venture into

9
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,600
Speaker 2: topics concerning the world beneath the surface, and that's where

10
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: we're going here once more.

11
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 3: The theme is we like to hide from sunlight.

12
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 2: I mean, it's you know, it factors into the movies

13
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 2: that we watched for Weird House Cinema, that there's so

14
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 2: much amazing science, from the geological to the biological, and

15
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,520
Speaker 2: so yeah, we're always going to keep coming back to

16
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 2: the underground. In particular, for this episode, we're going to

17
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,800
Speaker 2: be talking about car caverns in Arizona. We'll be talking

18
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 2: about this particular cave and what makes it special, but

19
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 2: we'll also be covering some related content that extends well

20
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 2: beyond this particular cave system and even beyond our planet perhaps.

21
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,319
Speaker 2: So yeah, if you're outside of Arizona or you've never

22
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 2: been to Cartooner Caverns does not matter. These topics are

23
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:22,680
Speaker 2: going to be to a certain extent universal.

24
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 3: So we're talking about this cave system because you just

25
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,000
Speaker 3: recently visited there. I think not for the first time,

26
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 3: right right.

27
00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,600
Speaker 2: I had to look up my old ticket stubs. But

28
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 2: I first visited Cartoner Caverns some I think fourteen years ago,

29
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 2: and last month finally revisited it with my family, so

30
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 2: like our kiddo had never been and I really wanted

31
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: them to see it. Cartoner Caverns is an Arizona State Park,

32
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 2: So if you find yourself in Tucson or near Tucson,

33
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,559
Speaker 2: or if you're up for a two plus hour drive

34
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 2: from Phoenix, you two can visit this amazing place. I'll

35
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,560
Speaker 2: just warn you up on to get your tickets for

36
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,960
Speaker 2: the cave tours ahead of time, because this is one

37
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 2: of those things that definitely fills up and you cannot

38
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 2: necessarily depend on getting day off tickets when you show up.

39
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 2: They also have some hiking trails. There's cabin camping RV

40
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 2: slots available, so you know you can make it. You

41
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 2: can plan your entire trip around visiting Cartoner Caverns, or

42
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,519
Speaker 2: you can create it as a nice little add onto

43
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 2: whatever you happen to be doing in the Tucson area.

44
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,080
Speaker 2: And there's plenty of stuff to do down there. So

45
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,080
Speaker 2: Cartoner Caverns. And to be clear, Joe, you have not

46
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 2: been to Cartoner Caverns.

47
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 3: No, I don't think I have ever set foot in

48
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 3: Arizona unless I'm forgetting a layover or something.

49
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 2: Now you've been you've been in some caves before.

50
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 3: Though, right, Oh, yeah, yeah, I've been in I've been

51
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 3: in plenty of caves. East Tennessee has a lot of

52
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 3: great caves you can visit that are open to the public.

53
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,400
Speaker 3: I've toured some amazing caves in Slovenia. They've got some

54
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 3: good Karst regions there with beautiful large caves. So yeah,

55
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,839
Speaker 3: I have been under the earth. But oh oh wait,

56
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 3: I Oregon Caves National Monument in southwestern Oregon. That's a

57
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:11,679
Speaker 3: good one too.

58
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,079
Speaker 2: Awesome, awesome, yeah. So yeah, there's so many different amazing

59
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 2: caves around the world, different show caves. And then I

60
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,959
Speaker 2: imagine a lot of you have experienced with sort of

61
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 2: you know, backwoodsy caves like I remember one of these

62
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,519
Speaker 2: from when I was in junior I or high school,

63
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 2: Like somebody had some land it had some sort of

64
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 2: a cave on it, and went with some friends and

65
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 2: we checked it out. So these are always amazing environments.

66
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 2: So Cartoner Caverns is a special place for a number

67
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 2: of reasons. I mean, obviously I have a personal attachment

68
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 2: to it since I visited it, but also a considerable

69
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 2: amount of effort was made to balance cave conservation with tourism.

70
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 2: Here for a cave that had seemingly not been discovered

71
00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,560
Speaker 2: by humans until the nineteen seventies.

72
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so like no evidence of earlier habitation.

73
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 2: Or right right, As far as we know, zero humans

74
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 2: had ever ventured into this system across thousands and thousands

75
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,960
Speaker 2: of years. So, as we've discussed here on the program before,

76
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 2: caves have of course always fascinated humans. Our earliest ancestors

77
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 2: found such places in the Earth, and they recognized the

78
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 2: various beneficial and novel features of these environments. Caves could

79
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,279
Speaker 2: serve as a place of refuge. Sometimes resources could be

80
00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,919
Speaker 2: found in these caves, and they also called out to

81
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: us in spiritual, creative, and artistic ways. Various caves speak

82
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 2: to this, of course, containing and preserving ancient human remains

83
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,919
Speaker 2: and ancient human works of art, and of course caves

84
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 2: call to various other life forms as well, and their

85
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 2: interest in these caves can also transform them. We've talked

86
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,520
Speaker 2: about examples of that as well. But as we all know,

87
00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 2: human interest can be especially destructive prehistoric caved or of

88
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 2: course of immense cultural and historic value to us. But

89
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,599
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it is graffiti. It

90
00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 2: is very ancient graffiti, and humans have sadly never really

91
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,800
Speaker 2: stopped scrawling and painting on the walls of caves, well

92
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 2: past the point where it becomes culturally insightful, at least

93
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 2: for contemporary humans. I guess you could make an argument

94
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,719
Speaker 2: that something that somebody scrawled on a cave in nineteen

95
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,920
Speaker 2: eighty see, would be of interest to someone looking back

96
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,920
Speaker 2: on it from three thousand and eighty se But yeah,

97
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,720
Speaker 2: you know, it's hard to make a case for that.

98
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 3: Now give it a few hundred years, it becomes interesting.

99
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we're humans. We want to leave our mark,

100
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,479
Speaker 2: and we have kept making those marks, even as we've

101
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,039
Speaker 2: continually woken up on the whole to the idea that

102
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 2: maybe these places are better off if we can leave

103
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,200
Speaker 2: less of our footprint there, you know, if there's less

104
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,719
Speaker 2: of that signature human touch.

105
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 3: Well, certainly the organisms within them are better off if

106
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 3: if we can interfere less, yeah right right.

107
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,919
Speaker 2: But but then also just as we'll get into like

108
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 2: the delicate uh and in many cases living in its

109
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 2: own way, not biological life, but but but mineral life

110
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,920
Speaker 2: of these caves, the different cave formations that are continuing

111
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,880
Speaker 2: to grow and change over time. Like this is all

112
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 2: a system without humans interfering in it. And even if

113
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 2: if we go there, and even if there are no

114
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 2: well you know, biological organisms to disturb, you know, we

115
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 2: could potentially greatly unbalance what's going on there geologically. Yeah,

116
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 2: So more on that in a bit. You know, we

117
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 2: we can mess up these places in any number of ways.

118
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,359
Speaker 2: You know, we bring our refuse into these places. We

119
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,359
Speaker 2: also in many cases, this is a case for so

120
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 2: many different things. But even when we like an environment,

121
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,640
Speaker 2: we've had destructive things that we've done to them. We've said, well,

122
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 2: this is great, we love this place. Let's take all

123
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,279
Speaker 2: this back with us. And so we've done that with caves'

124
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 2: we've harvested what we want from their depths. Sometimes it

125
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 2: has more of a you know, utility use, like taking

126
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,480
Speaker 2: away the batguano and using it for fertilizer. But then

127
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 2: we've also done this with novel rock formations as well.

128
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 2: I look at these stalactites and stalagmites. Let's break off

129
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 2: a few of these and bring them back home. We're

130
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 2: going to do something with them, and of course they

131
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 2: take a very long time to form. Yeah. Yeah.

132
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 3: So the interesting thing about that being that we often

133
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,200
Speaker 3: don't understand how important some of the things we take

134
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,239
Speaker 3: away are. So like we're removing a lot of batguano

135
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 3: that we want to use as you know, fertilizer or

136
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 3: you know, in whatever industry. It might seem like, well,

137
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 3: you know, let's just poop, Like how is that useful cave?

138
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 3: But it forms the nutrient basis of many cave ecosystems.

139
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 3: They're based on like nitrogen and phosphorus supplied through bat guano.

140
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they have a back wanto economy, if you will.

141
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 2: And so it just looks like batpooped to us, but

142
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 2: it is, Yeah, it is life to the organisms there

143
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 2: that depend upon it. Yeah. And so we damage into

144
00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 2: rage and to grade these caves in various ways. And

145
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 2: sometimes the other thing is that to someone who's not

146
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 2: an expert on these things. You may think about rock

147
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 2: formations as being oh, it's made of rock, you know

148
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:24,600
Speaker 2: it's here to stay. These these have been here for

149
00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 2: thousands of years, but in many cases they are quite fragile.

150
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 2: They can be easily damaged, even when we're not trying

151
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,559
Speaker 2: to actually break something off and bring it with us.

152
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 2: And then also in opening up a cave, creating what

153
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,920
Speaker 2: is sometimes called a show cave, creating a tourist attraction

154
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 2: out of the cave, which of course is a benefit

155
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,319
Speaker 2: to so many of us, Like I would not I

156
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 2: would I certainly wouldn't have wound up in carton or

157
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 2: caverns had it not been opened up in very significant

158
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 2: ways for human beings to access it. But if you

159
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 2: open them up in the wrong ways, you can also

160
00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 2: drastically change an environment. For instance, if it is a

161
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 2: wet cave a humid cave, you created huge opening there

162
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 2: and you may lose all that vital humidity.

163
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 3: Maybe this is a good place to mention an article

164
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 3: I came across when I was reading about this, an

165
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,319
Speaker 3: article not about carchner caverns, but about a different cave

166
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 3: system that has been opened up to the public and

167
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 3: some of the impacts there that people might not even

168
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 3: think about. So this is from September ninth, twenty twenty four.

169
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 3: It's a syndicated McClatchy article by Don Sweeney with the

170
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 3: headline dropped, Cheetoh's bag has world changing impact on Carlsbad Caverns.

171
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 3: Rangers say, So, that's a funny statement, but the rangers

172
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,200
Speaker 3: are making the case that it's literally true. So in

173
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 3: a news release from September sixth of twenty twenty four,

174
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 3: rangers from Carlsbad Caverns announced that a visitor to the

175
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,480
Speaker 3: cave had left behind a piece of litter. It was

176
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 3: a Cheeto's bag. This was at a sight within the

177
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 3: cave called the Big Room. And this might not The

178
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 3: whole point of this was it might not seem like

179
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 3: a big deal to the person who leaves it. It's

180
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 3: just one piece of trash, but the rangers emphasized that

181
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 3: this has dire implications for the ecosystem of the cave.

182
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 3: Here I'm going to quote from the article, and this

183
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,640
Speaker 3: includes some secondary quotes from the rangers release.

184
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 2: Quote.

185
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 3: Softened by the humidity of the cave, the corn based

186
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 3: snacks formed the perfect environment for fungi and microbial life

187
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,200
Speaker 3: rangers said, cave crickets, mites, spiders, and flies soon organized

188
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 3: into a temporary food web, dispersing the nutrients to the

189
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 3: surrounding cave and formations. Rangers said molds spread higher up

190
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 3: nearby surfaces, fruit die and stink. And then it says

191
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 3: the rangers had to go through this cleaning process to

192
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,719
Speaker 3: not just pick up the litter, but there's actually sort

193
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 3: of a decontamination you have to do to remove foreign

194
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 3: molds from the area. And it says, quote, at the

195
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,800
Speaker 3: scale of a human perspective, a spilled snack bag may

196
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 3: seem trivial, but to the life of the cave, it

197
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 3: can be world changing.

198
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a great example. And it and

199
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,280
Speaker 2: the thing is it doesn't even have to be a

200
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 2: Cheetos bag, because you can be in a cave like this,

201
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 2: and what do you want to do when you see

202
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 2: that rock? There is a part of you that you

203
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 2: may know not to scrawl on it, but you at

204
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 2: least want to touch it, right, And even that most

205
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,400
Speaker 2: of these caves where they're really taking taking conservation seriously,

206
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 2: like that has to be cleaned after you've you've touched it,

207
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,400
Speaker 2: because otherwise it develops into this kind of like gross

208
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 2: black spot because you have you have disrupted it.

209
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so I know this is something that I

210
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 3: think you're going to get more into this as you

211
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,199
Speaker 3: go on. But but the cave cave conservationists and people

212
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 3: have to consider a kind of balancing process because if

213
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,080
Speaker 3: you're going to allow people into a cave, there is

214
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 3: no way to do it without having any impact. You

215
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 3: can try to minimize the impact, but there is going

216
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,200
Speaker 3: to be an impact no matter what if people are

217
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 3: going in and out. So it's a question of just

218
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 3: balancing competing interests. Like you know, on one hand, you

219
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 3: want to protect the cave as much as possible, but

220
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 3: you might also have educational desires or you know, stuff

221
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,400
Speaker 3: about raising funds to help study and preserve the cave

222
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,720
Speaker 3: in other ways. And so yeah, there's like a competing

223
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 3: mix of considerations there that I guess are always difficult

224
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 3: for people who work in this area.

225
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's one of the reasons

226
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 2: again at Carchner caverns is such an interesting subject to

227
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 2: look at because you see the balancing of all of

228
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 2: these influences. But yeah, so opening up a cave can

229
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 2: be detrimental to the delicate ecosystem there, because again, think

230
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,400
Speaker 2: of all the things we bring in in addition to

231
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:51,880
Speaker 2: bags of Cheetos, things like light, heat, noise, potentially drastic

232
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 2: changes in humidity, drainage disruptions, physical damage to the caves,

233
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 2: lin flakes of human skin. These are big ones that

234
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 2: we'll come back to because we've talked about this before

235
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 2: on the show. But we modern humans walk around kind

236
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,599
Speaker 2: of like wafting our own little at times invisible clouds

237
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,719
Speaker 2: of skin flakes and lint, and when we venture into

238
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,200
Speaker 2: a cave, we bring that cloud with us and guess

239
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 2: what we leave that stuff behind. So you could say, well,

240
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: to a large extent, well, the answer seems simple, right,

241
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 2: let's just not go into these places. Let's just seal

242
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 2: it off. And sometimes that is what happens, to varying

243
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 2: degrees for different reasons. Some cave systems are either wholly

244
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 2: or partially closed off at least to the public for

245
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,080
Speaker 2: a variety of concerns, and these include hazardous aspects of

246
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 2: the cave itself, fragile ecosystems, and delicate human artifacts as well.

247
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 2: But it just isn't always feasible, right because for starters, again,

248
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 2: humans desire these caves. We want to study them, we

249
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 2: want to just look at them. Some of us want

250
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,319
Speaker 2: the adventure and even the thrill of accessing them. We

251
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 2: want these things, and being stubborn humans were not going

252
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,839
Speaker 2: to be denied them. And instead of trying to prevent

253
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 2: human access from happening, sometimes the path to preservation and

254
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 2: protection is finding a way to balance it all with

255
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,760
Speaker 2: human interest and actually using that human interest in the

256
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 2: cave's favor. And again, I think Cartooner Caverns is an

257
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 2: interesting case study of how all these things come together.

258
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm going to get into a little bit

259
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 2: about the history of Cartoner Caverns here, and this is

260
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 2: going to be a mix of things. Some of it

261
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 2: is information that I learned in the guided Cartner Caverns

262
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 2: tours also in their museum. They also depended on this

263
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 2: excellent book, Carterner Caverns, How Two Cavers Discovered and Saved

264
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,080
Speaker 2: one of the Wonders of the natural World, by Neil Miller.

265
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 2: This is it right here for you folks with visuals.

266
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 2: This was published by the University of Arizona Press in

267
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. It's it's a great book. Perhaps

268
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 2: the definitive book on the history of this cave. There's

269
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 2: also an older concise history on the website for Cartoner Caverns,

270
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 2: and this was by written by one Charles R. Etherly.

271
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 2: That one's also pretty good and goes through some of

272
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 2: the broad strokes of the various challenges and the process

273
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 2: that had the various processes that had to be gone

274
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 2: through in order to reach the point where this cave

275
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 2: was open to the public.

276
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,520
Speaker 3: I was reading that one and it was funny because

277
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 3: it's by Etherly, but also talks about Ely and the

278
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:36,360
Speaker 3: third person.

279
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and he's he's suicided in this book as well. Yeah,

280
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 2: all right, so let's let's get down to brass tacks here.

281
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 2: Where are we in the world? Well, okay, the action

282
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,320
Speaker 2: here takes us to the Limestone Hills at the eastern

283
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 2: base of the Whetstone Mountains and what is now Arizona.

284
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 2: This is area. This area here is a semi desert

285
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: grassland kind of in a to understand in a transitional

286
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 2: zone between between the Chihuahuan Desert, which extends west and

287
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 2: south and the Sonoran Desert, which dips more or less

288
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,560
Speaker 2: straight down and kind of goes to either side of

289
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 2: the Gulf of California. This particular area has a long

290
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 2: history of human occupation, going back at least ten thousand years,

291
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 2: and you'll find examples of this ancient habitation in the area. So,

292
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 2: for instance, if you do some of the trails in

293
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,000
Speaker 2: Cartner Kavern State Park, you'll find these bedrock mortars, and

294
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 2: you know, they're pointed out by the signage, and these

295
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 2: ancient places where ancient peoples made these little indentions in

296
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 2: the rock and use them to grind down, you know,

297
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,400
Speaker 2: grains and whatnot. And those, you know, I found those

298
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 2: to be particularly almost kind of like holy places to

299
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, to kneel beside and feel the smoothness of

300
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 2: the rock and sort of you know, get the sense

301
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 2: of that human history there.

302
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

303
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,240
Speaker 2: But the interesting thing again is that despite the fact

304
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 2: that humans have been in this area for a very

305
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 2: long time, there's no indication that humans here ever discovered

306
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 2: the large cave system beneath the hills. It's not impossible

307
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 2: that they did, but there's apparently no evidence of it,

308
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,800
Speaker 2: and certainly no evidence of any form of continuous access. Okay,

309
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 2: And we can compare this situation to say, the nearby

310
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,439
Speaker 2: colossal cave, which was used by different indigenous peoples as

311
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 2: early as nine hundred CE. Again, people, ancient peoples like

312
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 2: modern people's, were just enamored by these places. Now, I

313
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,719
Speaker 2: mentioned the hiking trails already at Kartchner Caverns, and these

314
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 2: are quite nice. You know, you're going to go on

315
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 2: a nice nature walk looping around the area where the

316
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 2: cave is found. And in fact, you can literally go

317
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 2: around the cave, because this isn't something that exists, say,

318
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 2: beneath the welcome center at Kirchner Caverns. It is instead

319
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 2: inside the hills behind the welcome center. So it's an

320
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 2: interesting experience to walk a round these hills that's kind

321
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 2: of stand like secret cathedrals, and we know what's inside

322
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 2: of them. That ancient people's walking in these same hills,

323
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 2: perhaps with differing flora, would have would not have known.

324
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 2: You know, only the bats knew of it, and they

325
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,879
Speaker 2: kept this secret to themselves for perhaps something like forty

326
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 2: thousand years or even longer. Wow, bats notoriously tight lift. Yeah.

327
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 2: So fast forward to the mid nineteen sixties and seventies.

328
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 2: I've heard this described as a golden age of Arizona

329
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 2: Cave explorations. So you had eager spilunkers venturing out into

330
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 2: the vast Arizona wilderness in search of new cave systems.

331
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 2: There just was apparently a whole lot that had not

332
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 2: been discovered yet, and so the dream was alive for

333
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 2: particularly young daring cavers to go out and find something

334
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,679
Speaker 2: that it had just never been seen before.

335
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 3: So I said this to you in a text message

336
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 3: after you sent me a picture from the book you've

337
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 3: been reading, which I'm sure we'll get to this particular

338
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 3: choke point in a minute in the cave. But I

339
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 3: feel exploratory impulses. I have those, you know, when there's

340
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 3: like a tall thing, I want to climb up on

341
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 3: top of it. And all that one I cannot at

342
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 3: all identify with is the desire to squeeze through narrow

343
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 3: openings or like crawl into tight places. Man, that is

344
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 3: like a in fact, I almost listeners I want to

345
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 3: hear from you, like crawling into unexplored caves, crawling into

346
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 3: tight spaces and little narrow openings. Do you feel that impulse?

347
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 3: What does that feel like? I would like to hear

348
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 3: that describe, because that is a type of exploration curiosity

349
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 3: that is more alien to me than all the others.

350
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 2: Now, some of you might be thinking about McDonald's playland

351
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 2: structures at this point, and like little tubes you might

352
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 2: crawl through and think I can handle that, that's no

353
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 2: big deal. But what these cavers are doing is an

354
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 2: entirely different scenario. Like, I think the general caver logic

355
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 2: is that if you can fit your head through it

356
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 2: and then one shoulder, then you can pull the rest

357
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: of yourself through it. And and so like one of

358
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 2: the like the training scenarios that one of our our

359
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 2: signature cavers here would do is we take a wire

360
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 2: coat hanger at home, expand it, and then practice crawling

361
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 2: through that that coat hanger. Like, that's the sort of

362
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: space that you're training for, and it's not going to

363
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 2: be smooth plastic, it's going to be rock. Yeah. So yeah,

364
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: not for me, not for you. But there you know,

365
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 2: there are adventurous souls out there who are like, yeah,

366
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 2: let me get in there, let me see what's on

367
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 2: the other side of that. Yikes. So this is the

368
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: this is the caving world that our signature cavers are

369
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: a part of. These are two young daring cavers that

370
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 2: were members of a Tucson Caving Club, and they were

371
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 2: interested in exploring the Wetstones. This is Randy Tufts and Tenan.

372
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: As Miller explains in the book, this was an area

373
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 2: long considered harsh and uninviting except empty except for deer

374
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: and havelina. Most of its history in recent centuries was

375
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 2: associated with conflict between the Apaches and the US military

376
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 2: or outlaw violence, and the lands had also seen little

377
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 2: in the way of mining, and so there were fewer

378
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: access roads. It just wasn't an area that most people

379
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: were particularly interested in. But for Tuffts and Teenan, they

380
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 2: knew that the Whetstones had everything required for substantial caves

381
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: to exist. There was limestone, there were natural faults, and

382
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: there was water. So starting here with Randy Tuffs in

383
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, he'd gone cave hunting with a couple

384
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: of relatives and they discovered a sinkhole in this area

385
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: and they descended down into it, and then they quickly realized, well,

386
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: they were far from the only people to have accessed

387
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 2: this particular little cave because there were the human signs,

388
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 2: there was graffiti, there was litter, and it wasn't ancient

389
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: cave paintings. It was like somebody had spray painted a

390
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 2: skull and crossbones or something. There were beer bottles, that

391
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: sort of thing. I don't know why people I've seen

392
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: beer bottles and caves like this before, Like, what is

393
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: it about a cave that someone's like, oh, man, I

394
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: got to get in there and drink a beer.

395
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: I don't know, Or maybe it's the drinking of the

396
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: beer that makes them want to go in the cave.

397
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I got to drink this beer, but

398
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 2: I got to be somewhere over God can't seen. Let's

399
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: get underground. I don't know. I don't know. But at anyway,

400
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: that's the kind of stuff they found and is really

401
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 2: to be expected of a cave that's just kind of

402
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: been accessed by locals and whatnot. When they were down there,

403
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: they made note of a crack in a wall of rubble,

404
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: but they didn't explore it and they didn't think too

405
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: much about it. But then fast forward to nineteen seventy four,

406
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: Tuffs discovered what seemed like another possible opening to a

407
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: cave system nearby and set out to explore it with

408
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 2: fellow cave or dary Tinan. But when they checked it out,

409
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: it didn't lead anywhere. It was a dead end, so

410
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: they were disappointed, but he remembered the sinkhole from years prior,

411
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: and not wanting to return home without getting underground a

412
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 2: little bit, Tufts took Tinan back to its graffiti chamber

413
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 2: and they were looking around. But something was different this time.

414
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 2: They felt an airflow coming through that crack that they

415
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: noted before, that he'd noticed on a previous adventure there,

416
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: And so they worked their way through that crack, and

417
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: then five feet down they found another pair of rooms

418
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: and these had not been visibly reached by humans before,

419
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 2: so they were, you know, somewhat excited by this. And again,

420
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: already we're dealing with very tight, tight spots. Miller points

421
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: out that Tufts had been, you know, he'd been practicing

422
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: the whole coat hanger thing for a while to be

423
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: ready for this. And Tufts was a little guy, so

424
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: he didn't have much trouble with squeezing thus far in

425
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: this cave system. But Tinan was a bit taller, I think,

426
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 2: a little bit a little bit thicker, so he had

427
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 2: to struggle a bit more, had to like, you know,

428
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: exhale completely in order to do some of these squeezes,

429
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: but they were making do. They continued on from here,

430
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: crawling through and what is supposedly an excruciating twenty foot

431
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: slender tunnel, till they came to what they would call

432
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: the blowhole, a great fruit sized hole that clearly led

433
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: to some greater area and allowed airflow. So that's key,

434
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: Like there's air flowing in and out, there's air transference,

435
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: and this is a telltale sign that you know there's

436
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: a larger system in play.

437
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 3: Here, so they know they're not heading toward a dead end.

438
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: They can see there's something that opens up on the

439
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 3: other end at least, but to get there, they've got

440
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: to get through this tiny aperture.

441
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: Right because of course, and just want to go ahead

442
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: and mention this now in case we don't mention it again.

443
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: But anybody interested in caving out there, make sure you're

444
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: following all of the safety requirements to do so, the

445
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: you've had the training and so forth, because there are

446
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 2: so many ways this can go wrong. There's so many

447
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: ways this has gone wrong, and they include things like

448
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 2: becoming stuck or either in a really tight tunnel or

449
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: finding yourself stuck in a dead end and being unable

450
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: to backtrack for a variety of reasons. So, yeah, these

451
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: these can be very dangerous environments. You absolutely need to

452
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: know what you're doing and follow the necessary safety precautions.

453
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you're not sure whether you know what

454
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 3: you're doing or not, you don't exactly exactly.

455
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: This is not a place for guesswork. So yeah, they'd

456
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: reached the blowhole, grapefruit sized hole, and they were like,

457
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 2: we got to get through there, but neither of them

458
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: could fit. So they took turns, chiseling at it for

459
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: like hours, you know, just over and over again, taking turns,

460
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: until they had expanded it enough for tufts to narrowly

461
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: squeeze through. He was able to get his head through,

462
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: get his shoulder through, work on the rest, and now

463
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: at this point they can continue you chiseling on it,

464
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: but from both sides, and so after a long time

465
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: they're able to get tenin to squeeze through as well.

466
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: So now they've both done it. They've both crossed through

467
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: into the next area. And at this point they're actually

468
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: getting into areas where they can sort of stand up.

469
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: It's still cramped, but it's opening up. It's very promising.

470
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: They press on a bit further and they realize what

471
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: they found a wet, humid, living cave system featuring multiple

472
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: large rooms, extensive tunnels, and a vast array of breath

473
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: taking cave formations, and all of it seemingly discovered only

474
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: by bats. Like there's plenty of guano around, So bats

475
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: were accessing this space. Bats were living here, but it

476
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: seemed that humans had never been here before. This was

477
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: the dream.

478
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: Wait do you know the answer? Were the bats coming

479
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 3: in and out the same way that tufts and tinin

480
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: had been through the tin through the blowhole or was

481
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 3: there another access point?

482
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the access point for the bats. Wow.

483
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk about later. But you would

484
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 3: have thousands of bats there roosting seasonally and they're all

485
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: coming in and out through this tiny hole.

486
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Okay. Now, one of the things about a

487
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: cave system like this, especially a living cave system, is

488
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: that different different apertures may open up at different points

489
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: over the course of you know, vast stretches of time. Okay,

490
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: all right, when we say that this cave was it

491
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: was humid and warm, what do we mean, Well, it

492
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: was November on the outside on the surface, but down

493
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: here in the cave sixty eight degrees fahrenheit, but felt

494
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: a lot warmer due to high humidity. Miller wrote, quote,

495
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: the damp air smelled like the basement of a house

496
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: that had been shut up since the beginning of time.

497
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: I think I've read that the humidity inside Kartchner is

498
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 3: roughly ninety nine percent. Yeah, so it's like very humid.

499
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: And I've also described people going in in like, you know,

500
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: sweats because I don't know, you might you might assume

501
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 3: that a cave is going to be cold, but like

502
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 3: nearly fainting.

503
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like it's one of the they stress when

504
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: you go in because you know, they have been able

505
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: to preserve that humidity and that that that that environment.

506
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: But you're you know, it's like a winter day. Then

507
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: you're you're arriving. You know, it's winter in the in Arizona,

508
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: so you can be a bit bit cold. And they're saying, look,

509
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: you need to leave some of those things in the locker.

510
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: You're not going to need them in the cave. And

511
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: they want to limit the amount of extra as we'll

512
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: get into. You know, it's like all of our garments

513
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: are lynch shedding garments, and so they're like, please don't

514
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: bring a whole bunch of layers that you're going to

515
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 2: potentially strip off in the cave or have dangling off

516
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: of your body and touching things so forth. So yeah,

517
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: so they they'd found it. This was the dream, and

518
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: they were tempted to keep going. But these were a

519
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: pair of cavers who you know, prided themselves on safety,

520
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: and they had already violated a key caving safety rule

521
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: by not having a third person on the team. And

522
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: also no one else in the world knew they were here.

523
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 3: This is hitting so many like horror removing that up

524
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: points alid.

525
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, So the much sided rule of

526
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: three in caving is always cave in groups of at

527
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 2: least three people. Always tell three people where you're going

528
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: and when you'll be out of the cave. Always have

529
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: three light sources, and use three points of contact on climbs.

530
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: So just hearing me say those things that does not

531
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: count as a prerequisite for you to now go and cave.

532
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: There are other things you need to do. But just

533
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: to give you an idea of the sort of safety

534
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: precautions that that experienced cavers are utilizing. Yeah, so Tustan

535
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: Tin and they were like we got to get out

536
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: of here. This is already you know this, you know,

537
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: for a number of reasons. We got to we gotta leave.

538
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: So they get out, they climb back out into the

539
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: chilly November environment, they head home, but they definitely come back.

540
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: And so the story from here on out, highlighted in

541
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: that Ely article and discussed at length in the Miller book,

542
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: is one of the struggles to preserve the cave. But

543
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: here here are a couple of underlying facts to the discovery

544
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: thus far that are important. So, first of all, Tufsenteenen

545
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: had no official permission to explore this newly found cave

546
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: on what they presume to be state lands.

547
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: What they presume to be So it's going to turn

548
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: out that this is privately owned.

549
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: Right right, Okay, Yeah, And that of course greatly complicates

550
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: things because they're going to reach the point where they're like,

551
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: this is a great place. The best way to preserve

552
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 2: it is to turn it over to the state. But

553
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: which is you know, I think is not to imply

554
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: that it's a simple process, even if that's all that

555
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: has to happen. But when that land is owned privately,

556
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: that opens up the possibility for any number of things.

557
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: These people find out that they have a valuable cave

558
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: system on their property, well maybe they want to sell

559
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: it to the highest bidder. Maybe they don't want anybody

560
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: to have access to it. You know, there's so many

561
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: different ways that could go. So that's one thing. And

562
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: then they also had no way of protecting their discovery

563
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: at this point, no matter who ends up owning the property, like,

564
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: they just have to depend on pure secrecy and stealth.

565
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: And so they tried very hard to keep secrecy in

566
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: place over the next four and ultimately fourteen years, refer

567
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: using a lot of code names and you know, making

568
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: sure that anybody that was in on the secret was

569
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: brought in, you know, just to the degree that was needed.

570
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: And they ended up calling this cave system at the

571
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: time Xanadu. In reference to the Coleridge poem Kubla Khan

572
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: from seventeen ninety seven.

573
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: There was some context in which we just talked about Collarridge.

574
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: What was it, probably the rhyme of the ancient marine earn.

575
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: Did that come up recently? Oh?

576
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: No, I remember what it was A I think like

577
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: Collridge's grand nephew wrote one of the accounts of Francis

578
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: Xavier's Life with the Miracle.

579
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. But I think everyone's heard

580
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: at least part of Kubla Khan and remembers this part

581
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: in Xanadu. Did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree

582
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: where Alph the Sacred Room ran through caverns measureless to

583
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: man down to a sunless sea. Not that there's a

584
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: sunless sea at cartoon or caverns, but it does kind

585
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: of get this idea of like treasures beneath the.

586
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: Earth, Yeah, a vast hidden wonders.

587
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So again they had to tell some people

588
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: they had to bring a trusted few into the Xanadu fold,

589
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: so over the many weeks ahead they would sometimes sometimes

590
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: they would continue to venture out just the two of them.

591
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: Other times they'd bring people they trusted in, and Miller

592
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: includes some details about this, like they would leave Tucson

593
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: in the morning, they'd drive out the Xanadu in a

594
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: jeep tenan reading a detective novel on the steering wheel

595
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: while he drove, and tough taking a nap. Yeah, it

596
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: was acceptable in the seventies. They didn't have podcasts yet

597
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: they bring in limited gear, just enough food to sustain

598
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: themselves on what was ultimately like a short jaunt in

599
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 2: the cave and then back out driving back to Tucson.

600
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: One of the things that they mentioned that Miller mentions

601
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: of the book, you know, through these interviews with folks involved,

602
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: is that cavers, in general, they don't want to You

603
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: don't want to bring in a lot of food because

604
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: anything you bring in you got to bring out. If

605
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: you go to the bathroom in the cave, you got

606
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: to do something about that as well. And in general,

607
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: like if you're squeezing through all these little spots, you

608
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: don't really want a full belly.

609
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, or I'd imagine to be having to haul a

610
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: bunch of cargo with you.

611
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So like they're bringing stuff like maybe a

612
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: can of sardines, or they made some sort of pudding

613
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: out of sweet and condensed milk that was apparently a favorite.

614
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: That kind of thing.

615
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: Xana Do slop Yeah yeah, yeah.

616
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: They had a name for it, like it was like

617
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: goop or something. So Miller notes that as caves go,

618
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: Xana Do was over all a relatively safe cave to explore,

619
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: so there were no deep pits to fall into. It

620
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: was only seventy five feet below the natural entrance, and

621
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: harnessing and ascending equipment was not required to get in

622
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: and out. But at the same time, the initial crawlways

623
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: were extremely challenging, so experienced cavers like these guys could

624
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: handle it. But it was enough to have protected the

625
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: cave from human and most animal access for millennia. You know,

626
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: like the bats were getting in here, there's some other organisms,

627
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: but like it's not like there are skunks crawling in

628
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: here and so forth. Like one of the really interesting

629
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: things that I discovered on the tour was that, yeah,

630
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: we have these bats coming in seasonally to roost, and

631
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: sometimes what happens abat dies, right, Yeah, a bat dye

632
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: any kind of like small mammal dies in other environments,

633
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: there's a there's a whole system that decomposes that organism

634
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 2: and consumes it. But like they pointed out one bat,

635
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: it's like, yep, this one's left over from the last

636
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: root and it's just there. And then there's actually a

637
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: stalagmite in Cartoner caverns where it's hard to see now,

638
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: but there's a bat in it where and it was

639
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: there when these guys discovered it, and It's a little

640
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: harder to see now because again it's a looting cave.

641
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: Water continues to drip, the rock continues to build up,

642
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: but it's just it's this. The dead body of the

643
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: bat is entombed there. That's amazing. Yeah. So yeah, there

644
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: are other cave systems where bats roost, and there are

645
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: various organisms that you may have seen in nature documentaries

646
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: where the skunks will come in or some other organisms

647
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: from the outside will come in to take advantage of

648
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: meals to be had there, at least in a seasonal fashion.

649
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: But that is not the case with this cave.

650
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 3: I was looking at one study of the bat populations

651
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: in the cave. We'll come back and talk about this

652
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: in part two of the series, but about a predator

653
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 3: that was setting up at the entrance to the cave

654
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: and was picking off bats there as they came and went.

655
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 3: But I guess no, I didn't read about any large

656
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: scavenger is going in.

657
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: Oh interesting that they did mention. I don't know if

658
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: this was the predator in question, but they mentioned that

659
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: there was a rattlesnake halfway down the sinkhole. That was

660
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 2: just like they didn't I don't think they did anything

661
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: to try and get rid of the rattlesnake. Maybe they

662
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: liked that it was there. It was kind of built

663
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: in security system, but like the first person down would

664
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: kind of like wake up the rattlesnake, and then the

665
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: second person down had to contend with the fact that

666
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: there was now an awakened rattlesnake there. Oh boy, but

667
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone ever was bitten by it.

668
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 3: No, it was not a rattlesnake. In the study I

669
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 3: was reading, this was one published in nineteen ninety nine,

670
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 3: and the authors talk about a case where a ringtail

671
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: took up residents I guess near the entrance and exit

672
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: that the bats were using, and was picking off bats

673
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 3: as they went by.

674
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so relatively safe cave to explore. But even

675
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 2: then you had experienced cavers like tufts and teen and

676
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: getting into a few scary moments in close calls. So

677
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: things still got tight. Things got muddy again. This is

678
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: a wet cave. Miller mentions one example where one of

679
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: them is hanging down in this muddy area to check

680
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: things out, and then they just can't climb back up

681
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: the rope because there's just too much mud. It's too slick,

682
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: and they just kind of have to spend an extended

683
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: amount of time trying new things, and eventually a big

684
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 2: part of what helps them is the mud on their

685
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 2: gloves and on the rope dries out enough to where

686
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: they have a little more purchase to get back up.

687
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: Wow, speaking of the mud, So you've been there and

688
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: probably seen this in person. I saw this on a

689
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: video walk through that the Parks had posted, or actually

690
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: I don't remember if it was the Parks or somebody else.

691
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 3: So somebody posted online a video walk through, and one

692
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: of the things that was pointed out in it was

693
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: in one of the larger rooms of the cave, there's

694
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 3: kind of a big mud floor and there's like a

695
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: trail leading through it, and the tour guide points out

696
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: that that was the original trail that the first explorers

697
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: were using to go in and out, and so you

698
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: can just still see this sort of line cut through

699
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 3: the mud, like they were trying to use the same

700
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 3: the same path each time.

701
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Again, this was like this was the perfect

702
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: era for cavers to have discovered cardon caverns, because they

703
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: were thinking about these things already. They were like, let's

704
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: impact this as little as possible. Yeah.

705
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 3: Fortunately now that if you go in, you don't have

706
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: to walk in the mud. They've got like a you know,

707
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 3: an established walkway.

708
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, to a certain extent, the cave

709
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: was hard to access and hard to discover. Nobody had

710
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: seen it before. But still they're heading out there regularly.

711
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: The cave's not too far from the interstate. There are

712
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: plenty of other Eager cavers out there in the world,

713
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: experienced or otherwise, so it's possible that they might be seen.

714
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: It might they might be followed, Locals might wonder what

715
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: they're up to, like, so they had to be careful.

716
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: Like some of the locals thought they were working on

717
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 2: I think some irrigation ditches or something, and they did

718
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: not correct them. Eventually, they would use blindfolds, contracts, and

719
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: other means to keep people they were on it in

720
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: the dark. They'd physically cover up the blowhole and position

721
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 2: rocks in such a way as to clue them in

722
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: if investigation by unknown parties had occurred, and they ultimately

723
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: were able to keep it secret like this for again

724
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: fourteen years. So I'm not going to go through all

725
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: the fascinating nuts and bolts of the story here, especially

726
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: as it gets into Arizona state politics and the like.

727
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: But here's some broad strokes and the rest of the story.

728
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: So they'd achieved every caver's dream. An undiscovered cave never

729
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: suffered historic vandalism like Onyx Cave in Arizona. It was

730
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: also a living cave, a wet cave, unlike the dry

731
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: colossal cave, and it gave everyone the possibility to really

732
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: try and do right by this cave, to protect it

733
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: from the get go and look after it with a

734
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: contemporary understanding of things. But how do you go about that?

735
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: How do you protect such a natural treasure? Well, tuffsent teenen.

736
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: They've laid out four possible ways to go about it.

737
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 2: One was gating, another was ceiling, another was the establishment

738
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: of a research center, and then the fourth was commercialization.

739
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: So gating, they argued, this would just draw more attention

740
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: to the cave.

741
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 3: Wait, sorry, what does what does gating mean? In this context?

742
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: This would be putting up a gate and saying, like,

743
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: you know, you're not allowed in here unless you've been

744
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: given permission. And this is like one one approach to take.

745
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: But the thing about a gate is you can force

746
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 2: it open and cavers could be notoriously fanatical about accessing

747
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: places like this, like don't apparently just it's hard to

748
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 2: tell a caver that they can't access a cave. They're

749
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,959
Speaker 2: they're they're not necessarily going to take that at face

750
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: value and then sealing it, like going the extra step

751
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: of like making it, you know, putting some sort of

752
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: like say, concrete sarcophagus over the entrance. This would they say,

753
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: create a false sense of security, because it it might

754
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: you know, it might protect the cave from access by humans,

755
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: but it wouldn't. And then there is the head a thing, Well,

756
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: what do you do about the bats? Right? The bats

757
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: still need to get in. Without even getting into that,

758
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: you still have the dangers of drilling, prospecting, and mining

759
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: that are still going to be in play. And also

760
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: you're locking the cave away from educational, scientific, and esthetic appreciation. Again,

761
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, we can, we can, you know, can we

762
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: can talk about conserving the caves out there, but you know,

763
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: we still we want to access them, and there are

764
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: some good reasons for humans to be able to access

765
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 2: them if it can be done in an equitable fashion.

766
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: And they as far as the idea of turning it

767
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: into a research center. They said that, Okay, this is

768
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: a great cave. It's an amazing cave, but it's probably

769
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 2: not biologically diverse or large enough to host a research center.

770
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: And the thing about research research projects is that they

771
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: end eventually, so you're not necessarily dealing with truly long

772
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: term protection for the site. And so that brings us

773
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 2: back to commercialization. And this ends up being the best

774
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: option and the one they end up pitching because again

775
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: they have to pitch this to somebody because it's not

776
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 2: on state land. They find out after they've i think

777
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: reached out to some state parks people. No, this land

778
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: is owned by the Carchner family. And they had to

779
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: then go make the case to the cartooners and try

780
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: to bring them on, giving them a crash course in

781
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: caves and you know, preparing them, you know for what

782
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: all of this means, telling them what they had, and

783
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: then in trying to instill in them the need to

784
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: protect it and telling them how they might achieve that.

785
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: And so again, there's so many ways this could have

786
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: gone wrong if the cartooners had been different people. But

787
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: they're great examples or not maybe not great. There are

788
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: there are telling examples from previous decades of caves that

789
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: have been opened up turned into show caves in more

790
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: disastrous ways, caves that have been opened up with more

791
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: of an engineer's mindset, like how do we physically do it,

792
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: how do we get people down there? What sort of

793
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: elevators do we install? Or a pure showman's enthusiasm, like

794
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 2: how do we turn this into pure entertainment for the people. Anyway,

795
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: they luck out because the cartooner has proved to be

796
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: sensible and straightforward about all of this. James Krchner, the

797
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 2: patriarch of the family, had a background in education, which

798
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: was obviously helpful and so toughsent teen and made this

799
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: proposition to them. They gave them these four options. They

800
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: end up landing on the turning it into more of

801
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: a commercial venture, with the idea that, yeah, if you

802
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: open it up like this, research can still happen, people

803
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: can come and appreciate it. But it also is I

804
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: guess you could say paying for itself if it is

805
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: positioned just ride.

806
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 3: Okay, So it's a case where you are making a

807
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: partial sacrifice of the cave's integrity for basic human purposes

808
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: like research and education, but also to raise funds that

809
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 3: can help protect the cave in larger ways.

810
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: Right, and again, I think this is one of the

811
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: things that makes the story so so fascinating. And also

812
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: you know the added point too that if it ends

813
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: up being run by the state, then there are other

814
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: dynamics in place there. But among the various requirements that

815
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: they end up striking in this this deal between the

816
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: two parties. First of all, tufsent teen and needed to

817
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: remain a part of the process to ensure that no

818
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: short curt cuts end up being made later on as

819
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: this is you know, process as it transitions from a

820
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: private to a state matter. And then James Karchner, for

821
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 2: his part, one of the things that he insisted on

822
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: is like, well, I want to see it. Take me

823
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: down there. Let me see this thing. He was seventy

824
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: eight years old, and he crawled through the hole. He

825
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 2: crawled through the hole. There's a picture in the book,

826
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: in Miller's book of him crawling through the blowhole. So

827
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: this this old guy was, Yeah, this was a tough,

828
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: old old geezer. He crawled through. Got to see it

829
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: with his own eyes. Wow. So there's a fair amount

830
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: of drama that follows from that point with everything that

831
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: can earning everything from changes in the Arizona Arizona political

832
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 2: climate to construction challenges because you know, part of opening

833
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: it up is people can't come through the blow like

834
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: that's not how you access it today. You've got to

835
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: create some significant mind tunnels so that people can stroll

836
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: in and reach it. So they had to do all

837
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 2: that their engineering challenges there and also trying to build

838
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: that in a way that wasn't like too destructive for

839
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: the surrounding area, that sort of thing, you know, trying

840
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: to use explosives as little as possible, those sorts of concerns.

841
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: There was even an attempt by rival cavers at one

842
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: point to tunnel into Xanad through what they thought was

843
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: another collapsed entrance, and so some of the Xanad crew

844
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: had to like infiltrate and sabotage that effort. So, yeah,

845
00:45:52,680 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: all sorts of cave druma. So ultimately, over the course

846
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: of this fourteen year period like that, the project faces

847
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 2: unforeseen challenges in research, planning, construction, legislative threats, mining concerns,

848
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: and legal issues. But then the cave officially opens to

849
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: the public in nineteen ninety nine. The area that is

850
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: now called the rotunda in the Throne Room, and then

851
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: the Big Room opened in two thousand and three, So

852
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: we'll come back to this. But the rotunda in the

853
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: Throne Room or the this is where I visited on

854
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: my initial tour, and then the Big room. This is

855
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: where the bats go. This is where where previous I

856
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: most recently visited.

857
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, now, Rob, you can probably speak to this

858
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: better than I could just from what I was seeing online.

859
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: But my understanding is this tunneled and the new entrance

860
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: they had to make to the cave, the tunneled entrance,

861
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 3: They've gone to pretty great lengths to make that sort

862
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 3: of an air lock like there are there's kind of

863
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 3: a decontamination or airlock procedure you have to go through

864
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 3: that's going to try to preserve the cave and preserve

865
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 3: the cave as much as possible, limit incoming contamination and

866
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 3: limit uh, the the loss of moisture and internal atmosphere

867
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: to the outside.

868
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: Is that right? That's right? Yeah, there's it feels very

869
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: sci fi when you when you venture into a cartoon

870
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 2: of caverns. There's you know, I kind of felt like

871
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: it was in total recall, like going through some sort

872
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: of some sort of Martian tunnels deep under the Martian

873
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: surface two weeks. Yeah, because yeah, so even before you

874
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: get in there, you're like your boots are disinfected if

875
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: you've been in any caves and recent memory, basically, so

876
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,479
Speaker 2: you don't potentially spread white nose syndrome to the bats. There.

877
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 2: You you enter through a series of sealed steel doors

878
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: essentially air locks and long tunnels. And then and then

879
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: after this there's this, there's a misting corridor. And this

880
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: is what it sounds like. You're essentially like hose down.

881
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: I mean, not to the point where you're dripping, but

882
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: there's like a mist It's kind of like being in

883
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 2: the vegetable section of a grocery store. And this serves

884
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: a number of purposes. So first of all, it helps

885
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: account for the moisture lost when humans venture in and

886
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: then back out again.

887
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 3: Oh okay, that's interesting, Like we would absorb a moisture

888
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 3: and thus remove it, so like we're sort of a

889
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: walking sack of damprid or whatever.

890
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, even if you're not dropping Cheeto's bags, just

891
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 2: by venturing in and then back out, you're changing things

892
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 2: a little potentially, especially when you're dealing with a lot

893
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: of humans, and the numbers are carefully limited here, but

894
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: still so that's one part of it. But then also

895
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: this helps deal with the lent again, all those skin cells,

896
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: all those little pieces, those little clothing fibers that we're

897
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: constantly shedding. The idea here is like you kind of

898
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: wet all that down, make it heavier, and then as

899
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: that stuff leaves our bodies during the tour, it's not

900
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: floating off and then sticking to the surfaces of the cave.

901
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: It's following more or less straight down onto the concrete

902
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: a pathway that you're walking on, and you are on

903
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 2: a concrete pathway the entire time, and their guard rails

904
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 2: and so forth. So ideally you never touch anything except

905
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: for the handrails. You don't ever walk on anything except

906
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: for this concrete surface. And they're able to clean all

907
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: of that down without having to clean the actual cave surfaces.

908
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: And if you do come into contact with any of

909
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: these other cave surfaces, well then they have to do

910
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: spot cleans, Okay, but uh yeah, again, just it's it's

911
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: just it's a very it's an amazing experience just to

912
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: venture into it before you even get to see any

913
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: of these amazing cave formations. One other thing I want

914
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: to mention is that when you're going through the caves,

915
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: the lights only come on when they're humans around, So

916
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: they're like, so they're not lights on down there all

917
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: the time. It's only when humans are down there, and

918
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: as they move through the cave, which is ide because

919
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 2: this is a dark environment. Yeah. And then as far

920
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: as the bats go again, the big room, which is

921
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: like a five acre chamber, a half mile of walkways.

922
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: This is the area where the bats are seasonally. And

923
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: when the bats are here, the lights are not here,

924
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: people are not here. It's just left to darkness and bats.

925
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 2: And then once the bats have left, then they clean

926
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: everything up, then they turn the light. They put the

927
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: lights back in so the lights can come on and

928
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: then the tours can resume.

929
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so there's only touring in this part of the

930
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: cave when it's not bat season, correct.

931
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

932
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, Rob, we got several more things we were

933
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: planning on talking about today, including the cave formations, the spielio,

934
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 3: theimmes and bat populations in the cave, like a bit

935
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 3: more biological detail there, but we are sort of already

936
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: at time limit for today. So maybe we'll have to

937
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: save those for part two.

938
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll come back in the next episode. We

939
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: have a lot more to discuss concerning cave formations, the

940
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 2: bats that seasonally roost here, a lot more interesting stuff

941
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 2: to get into.

942
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: Maybe is there going to be a connection to exo

943
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: planetary science.

944
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, as we'll get into one of our two

945
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: signature cavers here actually has some experience with the charting

946
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 2: of other worlds.

947
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: Okay, well, join us again next time.

948
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 2: All right. In the meantime, we're going to go ahead

949
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 2: and remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

950
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, and we've been around

951
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: for years at this point. If you're just discovering us

952
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 2: through Netflix, where we currently have a video version of

953
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 2: the podcast, well there's a whole lot more wherever you

954
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: get your audio podcasts. Just look up Stuff to Blow

955
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: your Mind. We do core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

956
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: On Wednesdays we do a short form episode, and then

957
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 2: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

958
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. And yes, again,

959
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 2: sometimes those movies take place in caves.

960
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 3: Sure, dude, I was just trying to think. Was our

961
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 3: most recent big cave movie drawn a blank?

962
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 2: Oh? Pretty recently, right right after I returned from my

963
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: trip to Arizona, we'd watched one that had a cave

964
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: in it or had a mine in it, The boog

965
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: and the Boogains.

966
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 3: Oh, the Buggins.

967
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: Oh the Buggins.

968
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: Yeah right, not really a cave, it's a mine. But yeah,

969
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 3: you know, a human made cave.

970
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. But we've talked about films that we were filmed

971
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: in Arizona caves like Gargoyles for example.

972
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 3: There you go.

973
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forget off hand, just off the top of

974
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 2: my head, which cave they filmed in. It was not Carton, Yeah.

975
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 3: I shudder to think not. I have not looked into

976
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 3: what conservation steps were taken in the making of those movies.

977
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

978
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 3: Anyway, huge, thanks as always to our excellent audio producer

979
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch

980
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

981
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

982
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

983
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com.

984
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

985
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

986
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.