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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: And his face lost all expression. He said, if you're

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Speaker 2: gonna play the game.

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Speaker 1: Boy, you gotta learn to please right.

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Speaker 2: You got to do when the home no, when the

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Speaker 2: fold no, when the law.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Rhyme.

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Speaker 4: Superstar Supreme Court lawyer Tom Goldstein took the stand at

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Speaker 4: his criminal tax trial, going all in with extraordinarily high stakes,

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Speaker 4: even higher than those at the multimillion dollar poker games

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Speaker 4: he played in and gambling is at the center of

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Speaker 4: the trial where Goldstein is accused of misreporting millions of

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Speaker 4: dollars in poker wins. He lived a double life as

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Speaker 4: a member of the elite Supreme Court bar who argued

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Speaker 4: more than forty cases before the High Court, and as

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Speaker 4: a high stakes poker player who won about twenty six

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Speaker 4: million dollars in one series of matches and once walked

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Speaker 4: through US Customs carrying a bag of nearly a million

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Speaker 4: dollars in cash. Goldstein knows the odds and risks of

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Speaker 4: taking the stand and opening himself up to cross examination,

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Speaker 4: but he's gambling that the jury will believe him and

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Speaker 4: acquit him. Joining me is Bloomberg Law. Senior reporter Holly Marker,

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Speaker 4: who's covering the Goldstein trial. Holly start by telling us

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Speaker 4: about how shocked the legal world was when Goldstein was indicted.

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Speaker 5: Tom Goldstein is a legal rock star.

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Speaker 1: He's argued more than forty cases before the US Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and he got there via a really unlikely route. Most

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Speaker 1: people who make it to the Supreme Court who are

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Speaker 1: that kind of elite lawyer also went to elite law

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Speaker 1: schools and they clerked for Supreme Court justices and so on,

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Speaker 1: And he sort of got there through pure hustle. He

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Speaker 1: would identify cases that he thought were likely to get

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Speaker 1: taken up by Scotus, and he would cold call the

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Speaker 1: people involved in the case and sort of pitch himself

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Speaker 1: as the best person to take it up. And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of how he built his career. He was also

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Speaker 1: the co founder of the same called Scotus Blog, which

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Speaker 1: is a website that sort of covers all things Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court and became a really critical resource for people in

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Speaker 1: the legal world. So, when he was indicted last year

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Speaker 1: on twenty two counts, a combination of tax charges and

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Speaker 1: allegations that he made a false statement in connection with

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Speaker 1: loan applications.

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Speaker 5: People were shocked.

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Speaker 1: Those charges have been winnowed since they initially dropped. He

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Speaker 1: is presently on trial for one count of tax evasion

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Speaker 1: for twenty sixteen, eight counts of aiding and assisting in

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Speaker 1: a preparation of false and fraudulent tax returns, four counts

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Speaker 1: of full failure to pay taxes, and three counts of

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Speaker 1: making a false statement on a loan application.

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Speaker 4: How did he get into this world of high stakes

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Speaker 4: poker and how much money did he make from playing?

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Speaker 1: So it had an interest in gambling, like he would

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Speaker 1: play poker with people in his law firm. You know,

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Speaker 1: he represented people in the poker world. You know, one

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Speaker 1: of his clients has featured heavily in this trial. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really until twenty sixteen until he started playing

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Speaker 1: these like massive multi million dollar hands and that's sort

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Speaker 1: of when things surfaced for him.

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Speaker 5: And at trial, since he's taken the stand.

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Speaker 1: It came out that in twenty fourteen he had a

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Speaker 1: pulmonary embolism and almost died. And after that happened, and

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Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing here, but he sort of felt like I've

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Speaker 1: got to seize life.

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Speaker 5: And he went on to say.

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Speaker 1: I may have overcooked that a bit, but that's sort

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Speaker 1: of what led to his gambling in his sort of

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Speaker 1: peak year in twenty sixteen, although it continued for years

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Speaker 1: after that with him mostly losing.

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Speaker 5: But to answer your question, he.

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Speaker 1: Played Alec Goriz in twenty sixteen and won around twenty

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Speaker 1: six million from him in a series of matches. To

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Speaker 1: give you like a rough sense of the kind of

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Speaker 1: dollar figures we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: The prosecution presented more than a dozen witnesses, from irs

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Speaker 4: agents and accountants to professional poker players and real estate moguls,

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Speaker 4: and even one movie star, Toby maguire, who were the

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Speaker 4: most important witnesses for the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: I think the most important witnesses in this trial for

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Speaker 1: the government were likely the accountants at Goldstein's outside accounting firm.

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Speaker 1: His defense, you know, there were errors on his tax returns.

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Speaker 1: He's not disputing that there were transactions that should have

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Speaker 1: been characterized differently, either should have been characterized as income

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Speaker 1: or shouldn't have been deducted as business expenses.

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Speaker 5: And there's only a handful of.

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Speaker 1: Them, eight to be exact, and he's saying, look, yes,

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Speaker 1: those should have been characterized differently, but it wasn't my fault.

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Speaker 1: I was relying on my accountants and my firm managers.

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Speaker 1: If they had any questions, I would answer them. I

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Speaker 1: would answer them honestly and to the best of my ability.

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Speaker 5: And they were the ones dropping the ball on this.

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Speaker 1: So in that respect, getting the accountants on the stand

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Speaker 1: to sort of explain what their process was and the

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Speaker 1: efforts that they made to get his returns right was

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Speaker 1: really important I think for the government. But I will

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Speaker 1: say that the cross examination of both of the accountants

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Speaker 1: was super effective.

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Speaker 5: They highlighted mistakes.

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Speaker 1: That the accountants made that hurt gold Scene that he

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Speaker 1: didn't catch in terms of his tax liabilities, and they

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Speaker 1: didn't follow up and ask specific questions. Gold Scene's lead

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Speaker 1: defense layer just sort of took it apart.

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Speaker 4: You know, I have to ask you about Toby McGuire's testimony.

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Speaker 4: He's known as a high stakes poker player.

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Speaker 1: Toby McGuire is apparently a very avid poker player and

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Speaker 1: also a seemingly very good one. When he stepped off

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Speaker 1: the stand, he left you the impression that he could

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Speaker 1: have made more money playing poker than he made playing

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Speaker 1: Spider Man. He took the stand to testify about a

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Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars legal fee that he owed to

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Speaker 1: gold Scene after gold Steine helped McGuire recover significant gambling

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Speaker 1: debt from Andy Beal, who's a billionaire in Texas. So

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Speaker 1: he won fifteen point six million dollars in poker, about

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Speaker 1: half of that was his bill.

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Speaker 5: Didn't want to pay, so he hires gold Scene.

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Speaker 1: Gold Stine does the job, gets a successful result. McGuire

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Speaker 1: gets paid, and gold Stein has this five hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollar fee. But instead of having McGuire send the fee

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Speaker 1: to him, he had McGuire send the money directly to

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Speaker 1: someone to whom Goldstein owned a gambling debt. So the

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Speaker 1: idea was to have him come in and testify about

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Speaker 1: this transaction that was ultimately misclassified. But again, you know,

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Speaker 1: gold Scene isn't disputing that certain transactions were misclassified. What

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Speaker 1: he's saying is the way that it was classic. The

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Speaker 1: fin on my tax return is not my fault. It

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Speaker 1: was an error, but it wasn't an intentional error.

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Speaker 4: And whether or not he had intent is key in

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Speaker 4: this case. So Goldstein knows his way around a courtroom, obviously,

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Speaker 4: but getting on the stand yourself is another ballgame. What

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Speaker 4: was his demeanor like, he was.

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Speaker 1: Calm, collected, self deprecating at times. He seemed very well prepared.

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Speaker 1: He didn't sort of over explain. He seemed sincere. I

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Speaker 1: think the big risk in a lot of these cases

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Speaker 1: with defendants taking the stand is the risk that they'll

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Speaker 1: come across as arrogant, and he didn't come across as

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Speaker 1: arrogant at all. He did a lot to bolster the

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Speaker 1: defense's themes that they had been teasing out while crossing

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Speaker 1: the government's witnesses. And one of the most important things

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Speaker 1: I think he did on the stand was sort of

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Speaker 1: tied together and fill in the gaps in his gambling.

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Speaker 1: And when it all was said and done, he actually

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Speaker 1: said that he should not have reported any gambling winnings

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Speaker 1: on his twenty sixteen taxes. He said that he in

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Speaker 1: fact overpaid, which sort of upsets obviously the government's twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen tax evasion theory.

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Speaker 5: Altogether.

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Speaker 4: The risks always come on the cross Was the government

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Speaker 4: able to score any points on the cross examination.

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Speaker 1: So on cross the government started was sort of establishing

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Speaker 1: that he has free will. Essentially, they were trying to

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Speaker 1: get him to acknowledge that he made all of the

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Speaker 1: choices that led to these mistakes, and that he was

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Speaker 1: fully capable, for example, of telling his for managers about

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Speaker 1: when a distribution was personal and shouldn't have counted as

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Speaker 1: a business expense, but failed to do so, and they

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Speaker 1: sort of framed that as his choice. They then lifted

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Speaker 1: very heavily into his spending and sort of history of

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Speaker 1: being dishonest with various people in his life. One thing

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Speaker 1: that did come out on his cross examination that I

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Speaker 1: think the defense had been working really hard to avoid

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Speaker 1: was all of these allegations about infidelity.

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Speaker 5: The prosecutor essentially.

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Speaker 1: Asked, you know, didn't you lie to your wife about

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Speaker 1: your many, many, many affairs, And he avoided answering the

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Speaker 1: question by saying, you know, that would require me to

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Speaker 1: talk about conversations I had with my wife, so effectively

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Speaker 1: invoking marital privilege, and the prosecution moved on. But of course,

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Speaker 1: now that's out there, and that, you know, could sully

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Speaker 1: his credibility with jurors a bit. Although you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that infidelity packs the same punch that it did,

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Speaker 1: you know, thirty years ago, but still, of course that

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Speaker 1: cuts against his credibility. He also acknowledged other sort of

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Speaker 1: misleading things. He'd done, or wies that he'd told, but

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Speaker 1: not all of them are that nefarious. So one of

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Speaker 1: the lies that the prosecution drew out he'd asked Paul

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Speaker 1: Napoli to invest five hundred thousand dollars in his poker

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Speaker 1: matches against Bob Sifi.

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Speaker 5: He'd like pumped himself up. He's like, I got this, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Going to win. You know.

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Speaker 1: He sort of really sold himself when he solicited that investment,

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Speaker 1: and then he just lost and lost and lost. But

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Speaker 1: instead of telling Paul Napoli that he lost, he instead

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Speaker 1: claimed that he won and gave him the five hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars investment back, plus some purported winnings, so just

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Speaker 1: out of his own pocket. So that was a lie

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Speaker 1: that the prosecution elicited, but it's a lie that sort

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Speaker 1: of harmed him or that it harmed anybody else. The

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Speaker 1: other thing about the dishonesty is, other than the infidelity,

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Speaker 1: all of this was already in evidence.

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Speaker 5: Jurors had already heard.

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Speaker 1: About sort of points at which he'd been dishonest over

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Speaker 1: the last ten years.

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Speaker 5: So I'm not sure that it was quite.

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Speaker 1: As effective as it would have been if if that

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Speaker 1: had been sort of the first time they'd heard all

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Speaker 1: of this.

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Speaker 4: It's often telling when a witness's demeanor changes on cross.

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Speaker 4: Did Goldstein's demeanor change?

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Speaker 1: He got his back up a little bit, but not

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Speaker 1: in a way that I thought was disproportionate to the

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Speaker 1: questions he was feeling.

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Speaker 5: He maintained his school. I thought he did generally a

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Speaker 5: good job.

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Speaker 4: So do you think all in all Goldstein helped his

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Speaker 4: case by testifying, or hurt his case by testifying.

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Speaker 1: He did no violence to his case, and it may

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Speaker 1: have helped him, And I really do, actually, unbalanced think

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Speaker 1: it did help him because the jurors needed somebody to

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Speaker 1: fill in the gaps sort of, to explain how all

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Speaker 1: the gambling worked, and to explained how they would swap debt.

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Speaker 1: They would, you know, hold on to winnings for somebody

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Speaker 1: else for a while. You know, they would redirect payments from,

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody they had won from to pay a

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Speaker 1: debt that they owed somebody else. And he was able

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Speaker 1: to say, look, here's where all of the money went,

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Speaker 1: Here's who it belonged to. Hear who the investors were,

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Speaker 1: Here's who I paid out, and here's what I took

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Speaker 1: home At the end of the day, and there was

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Speaker 1: really nobody else that was going to be able to

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Speaker 1: do that but him. And the other thing is he

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Speaker 1: brought receipts. He has contemporaneous text messages. For example, the

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Speaker 1: bag of cash turns out it was alone, just so

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Speaker 1: he claims. And he's got contemporaneous text messages that reflect

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Speaker 1: that that was one loan he'd received and he was

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Speaker 1: going to receive the second loan. So basically borrowed like

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Speaker 1: a total of two million from one of his former

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Speaker 1: clients and fellow gamblers. As you know, he was able

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Speaker 1: to testify about things that they would have otherwise never

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Speaker 1: been able to get in that I think the jury

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Speaker 1: really needed to hear.

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Speaker 4: So it seems like the jury will get the case

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Speaker 4: next week.

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Speaker 1: On Tuesday, the defense has a few more witnesses and

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Speaker 1: tends to call.

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Speaker 5: Among them is.

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Speaker 1: The lead case agent and the government's case. That's interesting

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Speaker 1: because for lots of reasons, but in part because the

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Speaker 1: government did not call this agent in its case.

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Speaker 4: And she Holly, you'll have to tell us on Tuesday

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Speaker 4: what the government might have been trying to hide. Thanks

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Speaker 4: for taking us inside the courtroom. That's Bloomberg Law, Senior reporter,

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Speaker 4: Holly Barker coming up next. Luigi Manngioni has an outburst

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Speaker 4: in court after a state judge set the trial date

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Speaker 4: for one of his two trials. I'm June Grosso and

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Speaker 4: you're listening to Bloomberg arge.

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Speaker 5: Is the time of lenders?

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Speaker 6: University and old and laws or not?

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Speaker 5: Guns not.

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Speaker 4: Luigi Mangioni pleaded not guilty to murdering United Healthcare CEO

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Speaker 4: Brian Thompson in December of twenty twenty four. The public

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Speaker 4: hasn't heard much else from Mangoni until his outburst after

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Speaker 4: a tense hearing setting the date for his state murder trial.

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Speaker 4: As he was let out of the courtroom, Mangioni shouted,

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Speaker 4: it's the same trial twice. One plus one is two

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Speaker 4: double jeopardy by any common sense definition, and state and

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Speaker 4: federal prosecutors have been engaged in a virtual tug of

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Speaker 4: war over who will try Mangioni first, and even the

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Speaker 4: judges seem to be jockeying for position, with the state

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Speaker 4: judge setting a trial date of June eighth only after

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Speaker 4: the federal judge set a trial date of September eighth.

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Speaker 4: My guess, his former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz a part

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Speaker 4: at McCarter and English Bob. The state prosecutors and the

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Speaker 4: federal prosecutors have been fighting over who gets to bring

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Speaker 4: Mangione to trial first. Isn't that something that's usually worked

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Speaker 4: out beforehand by the prosecutors.

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Speaker 7: Generally, prosecutors do try to work together, and what they

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Speaker 7: do is they look at the federal case and the

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Speaker 7: charges that are brought there, they look at the state

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Speaker 7: case and the charges that are brought there, and they

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Speaker 7: make a decision objectively as to which office as the

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Speaker 7: stronger case and the higher likelihood of conviction. So, in

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Speaker 7: many cases, the state charges will have slightly different elements

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Speaker 7: than the federal charges, and the penalties may be different,

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Speaker 7: and so prosecutors will essentially agree which is the strongest

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Speaker 7: case and lead with that. In this case, there seems

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Speaker 7: to be no cooperation between the federal government and the

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Speaker 7: Manhattan DA's office, and there is a virtual tug of

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Speaker 7: war between the two, a battle as to which case

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Speaker 7: is going to be tried first. We even saw at

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Speaker 7: a hearing before the state court judge, the judge make

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Speaker 7: a very unusual comment saying that US prosecutors had essentially

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Speaker 7: reneged on an agreement to let the state trial proceed first.

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Speaker 7: So we're seeing here a very unusual situation where the

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Speaker 7: federal judge has set the trial date for September eighth,

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Speaker 7: which has prompted the state court judge to set a

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Speaker 7: June eighth trial so that the state court case can

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Speaker 7: proceed and be completed before the federal case goes to trial.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, aren't the judges also jocking for position a little bit? Here?

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Speaker 4: The federal judge said that she was proceeding as if

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Speaker 4: the federal case was the only case unless one of

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Speaker 4: the parties raised an issue with her, and the state

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Speaker 4: court judge only sets a trial date when it looks

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Speaker 4: like the federal trial may go first. How do judges

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Speaker 4: usually handle it when there are competing trials.

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Speaker 7: Well, just like with prosecutors offices, there is no set

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Speaker 7: process by which state and federal judges must interact with

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Speaker 7: one another in terms of setting trials or anything else.

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Speaker 7: It's just usually a pattern in practice that there was

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Speaker 7: some degree of cooperation and some understanding as to which

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Speaker 7: case should proceed first. Here we saw a case where

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Speaker 7: the state made the arrest first and their first appearance

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Speaker 7: was in state court. But then the case got somewhat

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Speaker 7: bogged down in state court, which has slowed that process,

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Speaker 7: and in fact, there was a hearing in December, an

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Speaker 7: important hearing regarding the exclusion of certain key evidence in

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Speaker 7: the case. State prosecutors had argued that evidence from the

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Speaker 7: backpack that was seized by police when mister Mangioni was

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Speaker 7: arrested at the McDonald's in Altoona should be admitted into evidence.

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Speaker 7: It includes some key evidence including a nine millimeter handgun,

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Speaker 7: a silencer, a loaded gun magazine, and a diary, which,

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Speaker 7: according to state prosecutors, include some very incriminating statements made

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Speaker 7: by mister Mangioni, including a comment that Brian Thompson quote

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Speaker 7: had it coming. So that's all very critical evidence to prosecutors,

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Speaker 7: and there was an extended hearing in December as to

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Speaker 7: whether or not that evidence was going to be admitted

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Speaker 7: into the state trial. The trial judge expects to rule

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Speaker 7: on that decision in May, so the trial judge is

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Speaker 7: taking some time to make what is a very critical

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Speaker 7: decision about what evidence may or may not be admitted

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Speaker 7: in the state court. Interestingly, the very same motion was

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Speaker 7: argued in front of the federal judge and the judge

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Speaker 7: rather expeditiously ruled that all of that evidence will be admitted,

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Speaker 7: denying the defense's argument that the police improperly searched the

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Speaker 7: bag without a warrant. So that case, in some sense.

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Speaker 5: Is teed up and ready to go because that.

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Speaker 7: Critical decision about what evidence may be admitted. The trial

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Speaker 7: has already been decided in federal court, but state court

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Speaker 7: prosecutors are adamant that their case should go first, based

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Speaker 7: on the theory that the New York Police Department investigated

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Speaker 7: the crime and federal prosecutors only became involved two weeks

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Speaker 7: after the murder. They say that they have a greater

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Speaker 7: stake in the case, and in fact, it's only the

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Speaker 7: state court case in which murder is being charged. It's

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Speaker 7: second degree murder. The federal charges are stalking charges, which

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Speaker 7: carry a serious penalty because as a result of the

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Speaker 7: stalking a death occurred, but the murder charges are only

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Speaker 7: the state court charges, and so state court prosecutors are

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Speaker 7: saying that the case should be tried in state court first,

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Speaker 7: and that federal prosecutors should try the case only after

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Speaker 7: the Manhattan Diie's office completes their prosecution.

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Speaker 4: Mangioni had an outburst in court saying this is double

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Speaker 4: jeopardy trying him twice. And the average person might look

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Speaker 4: at this and say, he's accused of committing one crime.

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Speaker 4: Are both state and federal prosecutors trying him for that crime?

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Speaker 4: So tell us about the law of double jeopardy and

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Speaker 4: why it just isn't that simple.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, double jeopardy is a nuanced concept in the law,

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Speaker 7: although it does have a common sense understanding. Basically, the

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Speaker 7: Fifth Amendment precludes a person from being prosecuted twice for

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Speaker 7: the same offense, but there are some exceptions, one of

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Speaker 7: them being separate sovereigns. So, for example, if the federal

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Speaker 7: government and the state government want to prosecute the same

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Speaker 7: defendants for the same act, often that has been permitted.

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Speaker 5: If you go back to the days of the civil.

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Speaker 7: Rights movement, you may remember instances where a white defendant

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Speaker 7: was tried for the murder of a black person and

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Speaker 7: acquitted in state court, and then we saw federal prosecutors

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Speaker 7: come in and essentially tried the case again, alleging civil

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Speaker 7: rights violations in federal court and often could get convictions

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Speaker 7: in federal court when state court convictions were are not

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Speaker 7: possible due to the makeup of the jury pool. So

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Speaker 7: there is a long history of cases that are substantially

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Speaker 7: similar being tried by different sovereigns, the federal government and

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Speaker 7: the state government. Interestingly, on the federal level, double jeopardy

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Speaker 7: is controlled by a nineteen thirty two case called Blockbuster

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Speaker 7: versus the United States that basically says that if there

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Speaker 7: are different statutory elements of a crime, then you can

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Speaker 7: be tried.

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Speaker 5: In separate cases.

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Speaker 7: So, in other words, if in state court you're being

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Speaker 7: tried for murder and there's certain elements to convict somebody

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Speaker 7: for murder, but you're being tried in federal court or

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Speaker 7: violations of someone's civil rights, and there are different elements,

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Speaker 7: in other words, prosecutors have to prove different facts in

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Speaker 7: order to gain a conviction, then those are considered separate

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Speaker 7: crimes and do not violate the double jeopardy clause. In

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Speaker 7: New York State, however, the laws of double jeopardy are

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Speaker 7: actually broader than the protection that the federal Constitution applies,

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Speaker 7: and and that's why we're seeing this interesting interplay between

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Speaker 7: the Mangone defense and federal prosecutors saying that they would

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Speaker 7: rather be tried in federal court first, because that will

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Speaker 7: give them at least an argument that the New York

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Speaker 7: state case should be blocked by the double jeopardy clause

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Speaker 7: if the federal case proceeds first, and.

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Speaker 4: Explain why the New York double jeopardy law is better

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Speaker 4: for the defense.

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Speaker 7: The New York State double jeopardy law is broader than

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Speaker 7: the federal constitution because under federal law, it looks at

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Speaker 7: that blockbuster test, which is only looking at elements of

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Speaker 7: a crime, while the New York state law looks at

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Speaker 7: the second prosecution as the same offense or the same

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Speaker 7: criminal transaction, and so it gives defense lawyers a chance

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Speaker 7: to argue that even though the elements may be different,

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Speaker 7: it's really the same offense and the same criminal transaction.

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Speaker 7: In this case, my opinion is it will be an

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Speaker 7: uphill battle for the Mangoy defense team to convince the

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Speaker 7: court that the New York state case is barred by

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Speaker 7: double jeopardy, but there's no question that they will have

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Speaker 7: a better argument if the federal case proceeds first, and

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Speaker 7: then they are in state court arguing that the state

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Speaker 7: prosecution is barred by the prior federal prosecution.

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Speaker 4: The defense attorney complained about the timing of the trials

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Speaker 4: right now, they're three months apart if they go off

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Speaker 4: as scheduled. Karen Friedman Agnifolo told the State Court judge

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Speaker 4: Gregory Caro the defense will not be ready on June eighth,

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Speaker 4: and Judge Caro said be ready. Basically, having to prepare

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Speaker 4: for two trials at once does seem like a lot

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Speaker 4: for one defense team.

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Speaker 7: Generally, judges are pretty solicitous of defense lawyers who say

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Speaker 7: they need additional time to prepare for a trial, because

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Speaker 7: what the judge does not want have happened is they

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Speaker 7: go through an entire trial and ultimately there's a conviction,

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Speaker 7: and then on appeal, the higher court looks at the

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Speaker 7: case and decides that the defense was not provided adequate

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Speaker 7: time to prepare for the defense, and the whole case

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Speaker 7: gets thrown out and has to be retried again. So

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Speaker 7: what we're seeing here is that the federal judge set

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Speaker 7: that September eighth date for the federal trial, and the

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Speaker 7: state court judge then counted backwards from that date in

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Speaker 7: order to set a trial beginning on June eighth, to

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Speaker 7: allow that trial to be completed first. But as you say,

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Speaker 7: the defense has strenuously argued that they will not be

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Speaker 7: ready by June eighth, and that it isn't undue burden

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Speaker 7: for them to have to try the state court case

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Speaker 7: only to then, approximately three weeks later, have to be

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Speaker 7: sitting in federal court ready for another trial. What the

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Speaker 7: defense is arguing is that the defense team is unfairly

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Speaker 7: burdened because they have to prepare for two trials, while

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Speaker 7: prosecutors only have to prepare for one trial each.

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Speaker 4: Also, Bob, you talked before about how the state court

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Speaker 4: judge hasn't decided yet about what whether that critical evidence

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Speaker 4: from the backpack will come in at trial. Judge Caro

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Speaker 4: said he's going to make the decision by May eighteenth,

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Speaker 4: but they're supposed to go to trial just three weeks later.

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Speaker 4: Even though it's unlikely that the judge is going to

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Speaker 4: suppress that critical evidence, shouldn't the defense know that definitively

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Speaker 4: while they're preparing for trial.

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Speaker 7: You're exactly right, and the federal judge has already occurred

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Speaker 7: argument on that very issue and allow that evidence to

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Speaker 7: be admitted, So I think we can expect the state

442
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 7: Cork judge to rule the same way. It would be

443
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 7: a devastating blow to prosecutors if the state cort judge

444
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 7: were to suppress that critical evidence, and it would make

445
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 7: it much more difficult for them to gain a conviction.

446
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 7: But nonetheless, from the defense standpoint, if you don't know

447
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 7: for sure where that evidence is coming in until the

448
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 7: middle of May and you've got to begin a trial

449
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 7: in the beginning of June, it doesn't give you a

450
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 7: lot of time to reset your case and to prepare

451
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 7: for trial. And that's exactly what they're going to argue.

452
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 7: So it's going to be very interesting to see whether

453
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 7: these dates hold. One possible issue that could push the

454
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 7: dates back is that if federal prosecutors decide to appeal

455
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 7: the federal judges' decision to throw out the death penalty

456
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 7: charge in the federal case, the state court judge said

457
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 7: that he would likewise move back the start of the

458
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 7: state court trial.

459
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 4: It wouldn't be the first time or the last that

460
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 4: we see delays in trial dates. Thanks so much, Bob.

461
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: That's Robert Mince of Macarter and English. After widespread criticism

462
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 4: of the aggressive tactics by federal immigration agents in Minnesota

463
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 4: that left two US citizens dead and spurred massive protests,

464
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 4: it came as no surprise. When White House borders are

465
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: Tom Homan announced the end of the operation, although he

466
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: was careful to say that ICE will not be backing down.

467
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: If you're hearing the country legally, you're not an exempt

468
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 3: from our immigration loans. If we encounter you, will take

469
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: appropriate enforcement action. But also say we are backing down

470
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: from immigration enforcement or the promise of mass deportations, you

471
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: are simply wrong.

472
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 4: What's been missing in all the criticism of federal immigration

473
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: operations is a policy that affects every non citizen detained

474
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 4: by ICE, the Trump Administration's mandatory detention policy. It's a

475
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 4: reversal of every other administration's policy for the last thirty years.

476
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 4: The Trump administration is locking up all non citizens without

477
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 4: hearings indefinitely, even if they've lived in this country for decades.

478
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 4: And in a huge win for the administration, the ultra

479
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 4: conservative Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals just greenlit that mandatory

480
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: detention policy. Joining me is Leon Fresco, a partner at

481
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 4: Holland and Knight. He was the former head of the

482
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 4: Office of Immigration Litigation during the Obama administration. Lee on

483
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 4: both the Fifth and the Seventh Circuit had arguments on

484
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: this policy on the same day. The Fifth Circuit made

485
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 4: its decision within days. The Seventh Circuit has yet to

486
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 4: make a decision. How big a victory is this decision

487
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 4: for the Trump administration.

488
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: The reason it's a big victory is because most of

489
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: the detention facilities in the United States are in the

490
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 2: Fifth Circuit Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi. It's a big part

491
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 2: of the detention infrastructure of the United States is actually

492
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: in those locations. And so what the Fifth Circuit held

493
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: is that if a person crossed the border illegally and

494
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: entered the United States illegally, if and when the United

495
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: States government finally apprehends them, whether it's two days later,

496
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 2: ten days later, one year later, twenty years later, forty

497
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: years later, none of that matters. What matters is that

498
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 2: they were apprehended when they had crossed the border illegally.

499
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: And so under the version of the statute that the

500
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: Trump administration and the Fifth and feel is the correct

501
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: interpretation of the statue, they say that no matter when

502
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: you're apprehended, if you've crossed illegally, your intent is you're

503
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: trying still every day of your life to be admitted

504
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: into the United States. Legally that this is your goal,

505
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: because the statue says, if you're seeking admission into the

506
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 2: United States, then if you get apprehended, you will be

507
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: detained indefinitely without bond until we decide whether you win

508
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: or lose your deportation case. Previously, for the last thirty years,

509
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 2: all the administrations prior to this said that at a

510
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: certain point, after you cross the border, you're no longer

511
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: seeking admission, you're just here in the country. And that

512
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: seeking admission is only for people apprehended at or near

513
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: the border right when they're trying to cross. It's not

514
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: for people who've been here an extended period of time.

515
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: Those people are entitled to bond. And so this is

516
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: a new interpretation that's different than what has occurred in

517
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: the last thirty years. And so what the Fifth Circuit.

518
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 8: Has said is absolutely if someone is in detention in

519
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 8: the Fifth Circuit and they cross the border illegally, it

520
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 8: does not matter how long they've been in the country,

521
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 8: they can be detained without bond until they can finally

522
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 8: be deported.

523
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 4: And if the Seventh Circuit comes out with a contrary decision,

524
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: it won't make that much difference because not that many

525
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 4: people are held in detention in the territory of the

526
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 4: Seventh Circuit.

527
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: Correct. What's very interesting about this is usually the government

528
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: is motivated to go to the Supreme Court whenever it's

529
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: got bad law. But it would be very interesting if

530
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: what will have to happen is that the Fifth Circuit

531
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: petitioners the foreign nationals will have to go to the

532
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: Supreme Court and hope that the Supreme Court takes the case,

533
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: because usually the Supreme Court only takes these cases for

534
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: the most part, because the Department of Justice is asking

535
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: them to take the case. Almost always, when the Department

536
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: of Justice wants the Supreme Court to take a case,

537
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: they take it. But the Department of Justice may say,

538
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: you know what, if we lose in the Seventh Circuit

539
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: or the Ninth Circuit, no big deal. We'll just put

540
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: the visa overstate people in detention in those facilities and

541
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: they can get a bond and it's not a big

542
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: deal and whatever. But for the people we want to

543
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: keep in detention as the border crossers, we will put

544
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: them in detention in the Fifth Circuit, and that way

545
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: they won't be able to have a habeas petition. And

546
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: if the Supreme Court never takes this case, then that

547
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: can't be fixed.

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 4: And I've heard that when immigrants are released while their

549
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 4: case is pending, their odds of winning improve.

550
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 2: There's two sort of big dramatic complications when immigration detention

551
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: is involved. One to the extent that you have family

552
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: and friends and everybody else. You're separated from them, and

553
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: you're separated from your source of income, which makes it

554
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: harder for you to even hire a lawyer in the

555
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: first place. So you may not have a lawyer because

556
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: you can't afford a lawyer. That's bad enough, but then

557
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: it gets even worse, which is, even if you have

558
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: a lawyer, the lawyer now has to communicate with you

559
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: basically through ICE, whatever ICE decides to allow you to

560
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: be able to communicate with your lawyer. So you know,

561
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: most of these detention facilities are in the middle of nowhere,

562
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 2: they're not near any lawyers, and so very few lawyers

563
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: are driving out or flying hours and hours. Usually what

564
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: you're having to do is set up conferences. So all

565
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: of that makes it very very hard. If you're trying

566
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: to prepare let's say an asylum application, you'd be with

567
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: your client maybe eight to sixteen hours getting their whole story,

568
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: documenting it, trying to really set forward a case, and

569
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: you just don't have the ability to do any of

570
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: that if your client is in detention. So it basically

571
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: is like saying, fine, we're gonna let you play basketball,

572
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: but you can't use your left arm or your right leg.

573
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: Good luck deals see if you can win this match

574
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: against Shaquille O'Neill or something like that.

575
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 4: Impossible odds there. Leon federal courts have been flooded with

576
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: habeas petitions to force bond hearings. According to Pro Publica,

577
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 4: more than eighteen thousand habeas petitions have been filed in

578
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 4: the first thirteen months of Trump's second term, and that's

579
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 4: more than we're filed in the last three administrations combined.

580
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 4: Will this Fifth Circuit decision stop that flood tuv You're.

581
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: In the Fifth Circuit, absolutely, because that becomes binding President,

582
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: So none of those habeas petitions will work in the

583
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: district courts in Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana. If you are

584
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: in other district courts around the country, the problem you

585
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: have is that that Fifth Circuit decision could be cited

586
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: as persuasive and maybe the particular district judge who's listening

587
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: to the case will find it persuasive, and then you'll

588
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: need to go to the Circuit court and we'll have

589
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: to see what happens. But the other problem that could

590
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: happen is the government can try to move you and

591
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: get your habeas disc and then the court would have

592
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: to decide whether once to keep behaviors or not. So

593
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: there's just too much uncertainty and procedural machinations that can

594
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: occur in all of these cases where at the end

595
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: of the day, many many of these foreign nationals involved,

596
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: unless they get some very committed pro bono project, are

597
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: not going to have the resources to make all of

598
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: these challenges.

599
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 4: It homo sounds like game over.

600
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 6: I mean, the only way that this detention issue will

601
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 6: change is if the Supreme Court gets involved and says

602
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 6: that the Fifth Circuit got it wrong. But if the

603
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 6: Fifth Circuit decision stands, then what you will see as

604
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 6: the entire detention infrastructure of America moved to the Fifth

605
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 6: Circuit and then that will be how it operates.

606
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 4: And another problem is that attorneys are struggling just to

607
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: find their immigrant clients who've been detained because they've often

608
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 4: been moved to out of state facilities and then bounced around.

609
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 4: An ACLU lawyer called it a game of whack a

610
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 4: mole from the beginning. You can't find your clients. If

611
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 4: you find them, you can't access them because there are

612
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: no phones or visitation rooms. And if you do find them,

613
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: it takes weeks to contact them, and sometimes they're just

614
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 4: moved and deported.

615
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you are a representative of a person, a

616
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: foreign national who's in immigration detention, it's the most challenging

617
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: time it's ever been to do that, in the sense

618
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: that when you're a criminal, Let's say, when you're a

619
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: criminal and you're in detention, you're usually in detention within

620
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: some reasonable space from your attorney, and a criminal defense

621
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: can be planned and a criminal defense can be implemented

622
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: in a court of law. Here, if you lived in

623
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, Houston, or you lived in Atlanta, or

624
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: you lived in New York, you could be detained in

625
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: Kansas or in Louisiana or something, and then whatever lawyer

626
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 2: you would have procured wouldn't have done you any good,

627
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: because that lawyer is not going to travel to Louisiana

628
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 2: or Mississippi or somewhere else in order to be able

629
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: to reach you, and then even if they did, you

630
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: might be moved the next day. And so the question

631
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 2: of how you actually conduct the defense when you can't

632
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: speak to a lawyer is very, very complicated. And this

633
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: is yet another issue that is going to have to

634
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 2: come to some resolution because people are going to start

635
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: saying that they've had due process violations, and the courts

636
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: are going to have to decide what is the process

637
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: that you're due In these situations.

638
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: Even when ICE does release detainees, judges are finding that

639
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 4: they're releasing them in other states without their papers or

640
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 4: phones and with just the clothes on their back. So

641
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 4: some judges have been issuing very detailed orders. For example,

642
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: one Minnesota judge said ICE had to release a detainee

643
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 4: one in Minnesota, two with all personal documents and belongings

644
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 4: such as driver's license, cell phone, three without conditions such

645
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: ankle monitors or tracking devices, and for with all clothing

646
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 4: and outer wear he was wearing at the time of

647
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 4: detention or other proper winter attire.

648
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: And this is not new. This is something I remember

649
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: from the very first case that I won with a

650
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: client in detention a long long time ago. I won't

651
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: date myself. I remember speaking to a senior lawyer and

652
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: I said, what do I do now, and they said, no,

653
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: when you win a case and your client is in detention,

654
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: what ICE does is they just opened the door of

655
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: the facility and so you better go get them because

656
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: my client was in the middle of the Everglades and

657
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: so they either are going to walk from the middle

658
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: of the Everglades into civilization or somebody has to go

659
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: get them. This is not new. This has always been

660
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: that way. That all ICE does is open the door

661
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: of the detention facility and say, okay, walk out of here.

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Speaker 4: And I thought it was something new. Thanks so much, Leon.

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Speaker 4: That's Leon Fresco of Holland and Night and that's it

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Speaker 4: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you

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Speaker 4: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg

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Speaker 4: Law podcasts. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 4: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, Slash podcast Slash Law,

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Speaker 4: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

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Speaker 4: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

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Speaker 4: and you're listening to Bloomberg