WEBVTT - Interview Only w/Brad Carson - AI Needs Serious Regulation & Serious Regulators 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.240 This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.800 by Incognate. You know, one of the things we talk 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.880 a lot about on this podcast is trust, who deserves 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:09.920 it and who doesn't. And lately I've been thinking about 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:14.200 how much of our personal information is just floating around online. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.920 I'm talking about phone numbers, home addresses, emails, even information 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.400 about your family, all sitting on websites you've probably never 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:22.720 heard of. In the scary part, that information can be 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.600 used by scammers and identity thieves to piece together enough 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.800 details to impersonate you, target you, or worse. 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Use the code you get a discal again, 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:32.280 that's in cogni dot com slash chucktodcast and use the 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.520 code Chuck podcast to get sixty percent off and start 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.360 taking control of your personal data today. Trust me, I'm 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.440 constantly working on this for years myself, and here's an 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.919 opportunity for you to take matters into your own hands 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:47.360 as well. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:51.280 Well. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.080 Everybody is trying to figure out things when it comes 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.800 to artificial intelligence, right I think as consumers or trying 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.800 to figure out how is it impacting our lives? How 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.240 is this going to impact our future of work. You've 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.880 got older kids, You're wondering are you even remotely giving 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.880 them the education they need to survive in this new 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.520 AI driven world. Governments are trying to figure out, you know, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:23.800 how do we help this great technology come around? But 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:29.880 do so with some guardrails considering how poorly the same 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:31.919 tech companies that are trying to bring us AI brought 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.760 us social media, and there certainly seems to be disputes 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.360 about that. And what's been interesting is is how negative 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.320 the country is becoming on AI, artificial intelligence. And I 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.359 think there's a lot of fear out there. I think 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.320 the fear is understandable. I think the technology is remarkable. 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.600 I think, like many people, I think now we all 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.119 every day we use it more. Sometimes we don't even 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.040 fully realize how much we're using it, but we use 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.040 it more. But the fear factor is definitely gone up. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.760 And in some ways that fear is driven by the 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.760 people that are bringing us these AI companies, because they're 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.240 the ones that tell us, well, there's this small, small 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.839 chance that whatever we're developing is going to consume us all, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.840 and you're sitting there going so why are we doing this? 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.760 So it is look, the next ten years probably are 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.600 going to be defined politically by this battle of how 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.560 do we integrate AI into society and how do we 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.440 do it on our terms rather than on AI's terms. 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.920 So my guest today is a former member of Congress, 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.880 former Democrat Brad Carson from the state of Oklahoma, president 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:45.480 of Fulsea University, and he's president of Americans for Responsible Innovation. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.360 So the idea is that he's trying to work on 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:55.960 trying to create some better conditions perhaps, and I say perhaps, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:01.080 because we're what this conversation is about, of a of 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.080 a regulatory environment that could earn the trust of the public. Because, 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.320 as I point out, it's some very recent NBC News poll, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:13.080 but this has been pretty consistent so far. Most Americans 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.440 see more negative coming from AI than positive. Now we're 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.680 unique around the world. Most other Western democracies are a 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.080 bit more pro AI than we are. And I think, 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.120 like I said, the experiences of social media on this country, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.320 in particular the experience of what globalization did and the 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.840 fact that that's still a living memory for many of us. 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.080 So I in many ways Americans have earned their skepticism 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.800 on this. Brad Carson, Welcome to the podcast. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:43.880 Thanks Chun, great to see you again. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.000 So let's let me start with that. I want to 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.680 get into some overall politics, whether there's such thing as 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.320 an Oklahoma Democrat anymore, and we can discuss that, because 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.640 even then, you were an outlier when you were in 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:03.480 Congress start with this. Tell me about your organization and 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:08.360 be transparent with me. Who's funding it, who's what you know? 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.400 Because I tell you we're in the middle. There's so 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.520 much money flowing into politics right now, coming from a 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.520 handful of people trying to influence the regulation of AI. 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.320 So tell me about organization and tell me who's buying it. 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.880 So American's Responsible Innovation is now about two years old. 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.679 We're by partisan group. I'm a Democrat. I'm the president 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.240 of it. We have several Republicans who work for us, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.679 and we take great pride in working across the aisle 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.880 because we believe AI should not be a partisan issue 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.359 and that it's some one that both parties have a 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.320 huge stake in managing well. We're funded by family foundations 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.440 or charities. We take no money from the tech sector 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.680 at all, So our biggest funders are groups like Coefficient Giving, 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.520 ohmed Y are Packard Foundation, and a number of family offices. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.440 So we're independent of the tech sector entirely, and we're 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.760 often critical of them. But we believe that AI can 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.120 be powerful, transformative, and so we're not We don't want 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.360 to kill the golden goose either. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.240 All right, you say you're entirely independent from the tech sector, 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.760 and then you also mentioned the Packard family. I mean 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.359 that's part of Hewlett Packard. I mean I assume you 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.720 have some family offices that made money in the tech sector. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.360 Sure, some people who gave give to us actually even 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.960 work for the labs today. They might work for OPAI 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.800 or Anthropy. We don't take any kind of corporate contributions 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:25.960 like you might see at other groups in Washington, DC. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.039 Look, the reason I asked that you've got We're in 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.159 the middle of primary season and you see you literally 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.760 have super PACs that open AI is supporting versus a 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.080 super pac that Anthropic is supporting, because they're actually not 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.680 always on the same page when it comes to the 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:49.440 regular regulation issue. Do you do you guys have that 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.120 tension inside your organization. 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:53.920 We do have a bit of a tension about that. 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.479 Although you should know that that super pac network, of 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.760 which Anthropic is a contributor, I actually run that as well. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.440 That's kind of something I do in addition to my 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.320 work as AARI. And that's a group we found that 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.680 kind of spun out of AAR and we raised a 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.400 lot of money for it, and then we convinced Anthropic 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.120 to contribute to it because to their credit, Anthropic, like 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.520 the other donors, believe that we should have reasonable guard 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.960 rails around that. So I'm very involved in the politics 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.480 of it, very involved in the Illinois races today as 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.200 we tape this, but also involved to aari kind of 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.120 the advocacy work on the hill. So both of those 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:32.960 kinds of things, do you why should we yah? 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.600 Let me put it this way, the amount of money 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.120 you brought up the Illinois races. By time people hear this, 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.800 we will have already had these primaries. But it's funny 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.200 you bring up the Illinois races. I think it's just 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.640 I can't believe the amount of money from outside groups 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.640 that's involved in the center race. Now I understand it. 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.280 The primary is the center race, right. The winner of 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.880 the Democratic primary has like a ninety five percent chance 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.680 of being the United States center barring some unforeseen event, scandal, etc. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.440 So the game is the primary. But you ran for office. 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.240 Can you imagine having to run for office now in 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.800 this era of super PACs where you may have a 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:15.840 theory of the case of what kind of campaign you'd 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:20.240 run a run, but the outside group that supposedly wants 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.080 you to win, has more money, and if they say, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:24.720 you know, we don't like your messaging, We're going to 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.720 do another messaging. You're you no longer have control of 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.760 your own campaign. Have you? Can you imagine what life 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:34.640 would have been like for you as a candidate under 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.280 the under these conditions. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.280 Well, I think it's one of the greatest changes in 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.600 American politics that most people don't appreciate the hard dollars 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:46.199 campaign raises, they're almost insignificant. You look at the Illinois primaries, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.360 candidates there often raising one hundred thousand, two hundred thousand dollars. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.360 Super PACs are then spending four or five million dollars 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.800 against you. We're involved in a race in North Carolina's 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.640 fourth district in the research triangle, each candidates spent about 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.400 one hundred thousand dollars. The super PACs spent a couple 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.040 of million on each side. So you see, happy in 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.520 American politics is in some ways you would even have 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.040 to raise money as a candidate. You could just sit 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.400 back in your house let the super PACs fight it out. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.200 Because whatever you raise and asks hard it is to 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.839 raise when you're running for office, how exhausting that is, 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.440 it's going to be matched probably ten x or more 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.280 by the super PACs, So really extraordinary. 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.400 Should this should? It doesn't sound like you think this 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.520 is a good system. Obviously they're working within the system 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.840 that it is. I always joke I cover politics as 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.880 it is, not as I wish it were, and you're 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.440 participating in the system as it is, perhaps not as 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.559 you wish it were. But my word, I mean this 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:47.960 is if the candidates aren't in charge of their messaging 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.600 or their campaign, then what's the point. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.120 That's a great question. American democracy is really at stake 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.839 here the superPAC era. But you're going to really see 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.160 it manifested this cycle and the next one. You know, 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.680 Crypto pioneered this strategy. Apex very involved with it too. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:02.800 Both of them have a hut. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:03.520 You're not alone. 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:03.959 I don't want it. 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:05.640 You're right, I'm picking on you because you're here. 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.000 No, the well four or five of us were playing 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.920 big are superbacks at seventy five million dollars. I'd be 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.280 happy to stand down if everyone else would as well, 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.520 because it's really destroying American democracy, changing the way elections 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.880 are had. So it's a terrible system that we've to 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.480 Supreme Court, both Supreme Court and FEC interpretations of that 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.319 Supreme Court opinion. We permitted it to get completely out 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:27.640 of hand. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.240 Look, when you served in Congress, do you think back 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:37.840 about the do you have any regrets collectively, not you 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.480 the individual member of Congress, but collectively because it was 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.920 the entire era had a hands off approach on the Internet, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.600 very hands off on regulating, you know. I mean, I 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.959 remember at one point John McCain advocating we should have 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.520 the Internet should be tax free forever. And I remember thinking, 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.720 you know, at some point that's not going to work, 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.520 and it didn't. The Internet shouldn't have any sales tax. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.200 You know, at some point that's not going to work, 0:10:58.320 --> 0:10:58.880 and it didn't. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:10:59.199 Right. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.080 But we had such a light touch on the Internet, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:08.240 and it worked until it didn't. 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:08.520 Right. 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:13.240 Social media, to me, is the greatest failed experiment on 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.240 the human brain that is still ongoing. And I don't 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.679 know why we haven't stopped the experiment yet right. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:21.360 Looking back. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.000 And the reason I'm asking it that way because how 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.720 do we avoid the same mistakes with AI? And what's 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:31.199 something you think Congress and government should have done differently 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.080 in the late nineties and early aughts with the Internet. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.560 Because I would actually say we did more than just 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.800 not have a light or more than just a light touch. 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:42.160 We effectively immunized all of the Internet companies from any liability. 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.040 This is the famous section two thirty of the Communications 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.080 Decency Act. And so it wasn't that we just said 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.040 we're not going to regulate you. We said we will 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.440 immunize you from any claims that you defamed people, that 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.000 you hurt them in any way, that you intentionally inflicted 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.520 emotional distress, that you're liable for products liability, all of 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.160 those things. We actually told the companies you're free from 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.920 having to worry about that. That was in nineteen ninety six, 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.400 at a time when only seven percent of the people 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.040 even had Internet. Google and Facebook were just a gleam 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.680 in their founder's eyes. So it was a terrible air 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.040 for us, and we celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of that 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.040 this year. Well, we want to make sure AI is 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.520 we don't do the same thing. So one of the 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.320 big fights in Washington, DC right now is about the 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.640 preemption of state laws. So a lot of the venture 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.280 capitalists Open AI has been in this camp that we 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.400 want to pre empt all state regulation of AI in 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.480 many ways, that's just two thirty reprized for the AI 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.120 age basically say there be no law. We're going to 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.280 basically hold these companies unaccountable. And I think there's a 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.360 way to have your cake and eat it too by 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.840 saying we need some light touch regulation. They should be 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.680 held accountable for their harms. We which allow the courts 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.640 to develop common law over the years, which is finally 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.120 calibrated to the actual risks that the AI systems present, 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.840 rather than like giving them a blanket immunity. That's what 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.080 we did to social media. And the stories that come 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.920 out of social media are obviously horrifying. And when those 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.600 families sue Facebook, TikTok or someone, they have no recourse 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.760 at all. That's a terrible system that obviously harms the families, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.760 gives them no redress, but doesn't make the companies fully 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.439 internalize the many costs are opposing on society. 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.080 Well, and I get I mean, many of my listeners 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.880 know I have this pet peeve about section two thirty, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.440 specifically when I don't understand how it is any not 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.079 only that I don't understand how it has any function anymore. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.880 For this reason, not that you know, yes, government should 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.000 have withdrawn it a while ago. But forget that the 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:50.880 second Facebook or Instagram or Google created an algorithm to 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:56.240 determine what I see and what gets fed to me quicker. 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.559 They have become a publisher, They are an editor. They 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.959 made the decision what goes above the fold, Brad, and 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.960 what goes below the fold in the old fashioned news stand. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.480 That is a decision. It was not, you know, and 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.200 you're a publisher at that point. So I don't understand 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.360 how the courts have interpreted Section two thirty as even 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.800 being functional anymore for any of these entities. 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.280 It's a great question, and the use of algorithmic curation 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.200 is one of the kind of emerging questions I think. 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.160 You know, we've already talked about how the Supreme Court 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.160 bollock stuff campaign finance and brought us the superPAC era. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.560 Their interpretation of First Amendment law over the last few 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.520 years is equally troublesome, because they now hold things like 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.640 the use of algorithm as being no different than you know, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.600 when you were back in the editor of Hotline, back 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.480 when I first met you a long time ago. You're 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.640 making editorial decisions every day, right, that's covered by the 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.160 First Amendment, you can be for a candidate, you can 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.440 be against the candidate, you can write for or against. 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.240 The Supreme Court now holds those kind of algorithms are 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.600 equivalent to that. That makes no sense to me. But 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.160 as long as that jurisprudence exists, right, it's very hard 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.640 to argue that algorithms are outside of Section two thirty 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.800 is immunity. So we have a problem with how the 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.840 Supreme Court's interpreting the First Amendment as it comes to 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.520 like these tech platforms as well. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.480 No, you're look, that's a that's a fair pushback on 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.119 my pushback, which is this First Amendment interpretation of an algorithm. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.360 But the point is is that they've the initial instance 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.960 of Section two thirty was well where they're not publishers. 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.840 They're just a platform that they somehow don't have any 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.160 influence on their platform. And while that might still be 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.400 true of our reddit, you know, in the way that 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.840 Reddit works, that is not true of x that is 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.360 not true of Instagram. They you know, yes, you know, 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.640 they don't create the content, but they go out of 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.360 their way to make sure I see certain content based 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:55.360 on my profile that they have decided to suck up 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.640 with data. So that's why I'm that's where my you 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.000 know what, I don't understand that how they can then 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:03.880 say no, no, no, no no, We're just a plot. We're just 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:05.920 in charge of a platform. You can't hold us accountable 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:06.160 for it. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:07.840 I mean that shows you the danger of a two 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.200 thirty pass at a time when no one even understood 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:10.720 what the internet. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.000 We didn't know what they were passing. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.320 So you pass these like vague terms that are in 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.200 the law, courts are forced to interpret them, and right 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.920 courts go off on this or that tangent and they 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.200 have a lot of money now, the social media companies do, 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.680 so they fight back in Congress with millions of dollars. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.160 They all have super packs of their own, and so 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.120 it's very hard to change. And so one of the 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.000 great lessons of two thirty for AI is like, don't 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.680 pass some kind of metal law before you even understand 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.800 like what's going to happen in five years, because then 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.680 you can't change it. You know, it's very hard to 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.800 politics to get these things reversed. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.200 Well, this is what I love federal federalism. We have 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:51.960 fifty states, and it does seem as if it's a were. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.600 The divide on whether states should be allowed to regulate 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:00.640 AI is I think an interesting fight because it's not 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:05.639 a left right divide. This really is a industry versus 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.680 everybody else fight. Right, you have Ron DeSantis, who is 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.600 who's marching forward on trying to get AI regulation in 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.280 the state of Florida, while Donald Trump's still trying to 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.680 give immunity to these companies. I imagine if you're taking 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.240 anthropic money, you're on the side of letting the states 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:23.760 give this a shot. First. 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.760 Yeah, we actually said we've always advocated for that. They've 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.160 brought it twice before Congress, and we led the coalition 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.080 to AARI to defeat that again. Republicans and Democrats, Republican 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:38.399 ags Sarah Huckaby Standers was rallying Republican governors. DeSantis, Steve 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.320 Bannon was on the Hustings like really active in this. 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.879 So it does transcend party label in some way, and 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.639 really it's a world now. I think only people actually 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.640 for this policy are like three people. They're a sixteen 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:56.120 z Anderson Horroriz, the VC firm that Mark Andrews ben 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.200 Horowitz runs, and the Open AI guys that's really used 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.439 for it. Topics not for it again, anthropics in the industry, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.480 they're very divided. Anthropics says, well, we prefer to have 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.399 a comprehensive federal standard. 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It's people we know 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.199 are going to be on our side, and then we 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.159 are spending some money on trying to socialize AI make 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.920 people more aware of it, because right now many people 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.160 have a lot of concerns, but it's not the top 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:47.480 of mind for them in voting. 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:49.679 Are you surprised at how negative people are about this? 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.240 I know I'm not really because I can see it 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:54.720 even here in Oklahoma, where I still live. You know, 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:58.480 people who are very Trump oriented, very conservative state. This 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.600 is seventy thirty Trumps. You know, I don't know many 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.560 liberal Democrats here, and many people are fired up. We 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.199 have a huge data center rebellion from people who are 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.960 deeply religious, conservative across the board Trump voters, and they 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.920 don't want data centers, which is one manifestation of this fight. 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.439