Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we break
Speaker 1: down the psychology of our twenties. This episode was listener requested.
Speaker 1: Actually it was requested a lot of times, a lot
Speaker 1: of times, and as with all listener requested episodes, I
Speaker 1: always am like, how have I never done this before?
Speaker 1: Because when you start thinking about it, A lot of
Speaker 1: us live with shame about who we are, and we
Speaker 1: carry that in silence. We are ashamed, each of us.
Speaker 1: I think of something in our lives, of our past,
Speaker 1: our past mistakes, maybe our bodies, our choices, our identity,
Speaker 1: our entire personhood at times, and that shame takes over
Speaker 1: quite literally everything. It can become a constant companion and
Speaker 1: everything that we do, so that when we wake up
Speaker 1: we feel like we aren't good enough. When we want
Speaker 1: to take a risk or do something brave, we can't
Speaker 1: trust ourselves when good things happen to us, we think
Speaker 1: we don't deserve them. Shame is above all else, at
Speaker 1: its core, at its beginnings, it's a social or moral emotion.
Speaker 1: That's what it was, what it's kind of evolved to be.
Speaker 1: We feel it very intensely in situations where we believe
Speaker 1: that we have upset, offended, disgusted someone, or when we
Speaker 1: go against some social norm or moral health by society.
Speaker 1: That means that perhaps we deserve to be punished, outcast,
Speaker 1: we are unworthy of acceptance and forgiveness. This is what
Speaker 1: makes it a deeply painful emotion that seems so hardwired
Speaker 1: into our social brains. It's a way to make us behave,
Speaker 1: make sure that we are good boys and girls, and
Speaker 1: also that we hide behavior that we think others will
Speaker 1: judge us for. We hide ourselves away all together when
Speaker 1: we think that our mistakes or something about us makes
Speaker 1: us unsavory as a whole, not worthy of being seen.
Speaker 1: This is the problem with chronic shame. It's that we
Speaker 1: don't just feel this emotion in response to specific circumstances,
Speaker 1: because that would be guilt. We feel shame even when
Speaker 1: we are alone, even when there is no audience, there
Speaker 1: is no offensive behavior that we have committed. And that
Speaker 1: is the kind of shame that I want to discuss today.
Speaker 1: Toxic make shame that just doesn't accompany a hiccup or
Speaker 1: small mistake, but which kind of ends up feeling like
Speaker 1: part of our DNA. And that's what it means to
Speaker 1: be shame bound. And it's one of the big battles
Speaker 1: that a lot of us have to overcome in our
Speaker 1: twenties to be released from this very oppressive force that
Speaker 1: keeps us small. And that is what shame does. Shame
Speaker 1: keeps us small because it becomes self imposed.
Speaker 2: At some point. We don't need another person to give
Speaker 2: us a dirty look, or to humiliate us, or to
Speaker 2: expose us, reject us all of those things. We end
Speaker 2: up doing them to ourselves in a way as a
Speaker 2: way to stop us from being critiqued and seen, and
Speaker 2: because we almost anticipate that if we were to show
Speaker 2: up and try hard and be visible, someone is going
Speaker 2: to find something about us that we deserve to be
Speaker 2: ashamed of. I don't think that it will come as
Speaker 2: a surprise that, sadly, this pattern has a lot of
Speaker 2: roots in trauma, and not just the big trauma that
Speaker 2: we think of, but small moments where we were made
Speaker 2: to feel terrible and disgusting because of part of who
Speaker 2: we were. So let's talk about it today. I want
Speaker 2: to really discuss how shame gets implanted in our self concept,
Speaker 2: what that feels like, what that does to our ambition,
Speaker 2: what that does to our direction, but also some of
Speaker 2: the best advice I have encountered in a long time
Speaker 2: on how to release ourself from being shame bound. I
Speaker 2: know this is something that a lot of us live
Speaker 2: with for different reasons, and we're going to discuss those
Speaker 2: as well. But I really hope that if the thing
Speaker 2: what you might actually realize is that the thing that
Speaker 2: is keeping you from everything you might want, everything that
Speaker 2: you could be, is not a lack of effort. It's
Speaker 2: not because you're lazy, it's not because you don't know
Speaker 2: what you want. It's not because you're not capable. It's
Speaker 2: because of an inherent shame that you feel around being
Speaker 2: seen and being loud and being heard. So without further ado,
Speaker 2: let's discuss the psychology of shame. Brene Brown is one
Speaker 2: of my favorite favorite researchers people in general, and in
Speaker 2: her very well known ted talk, which is called The
Speaker 2: Power of Vulnerability, was released almost fourteen years ago. It's
Speaker 2: incredibly popular. It's a must watch. She says that shame
Speaker 2: is essentially the fear of disconnection, and it sits very
Speaker 2: closely besides our fear of loneliness, of judgment, ostracization, and
Speaker 2: social pain, because basically it is posing a very insidious
Speaker 2: and toxic line of questioning. Is there something about me
Speaker 2: that if other people were to know or were to say,
Speaker 2: they would believe I wasn't worthy of belonging? And if
Speaker 2: there is, I better hide it? Or else how could
Speaker 2: I be loved and accepted? There is this kind of
Speaker 2: toss up in our brain. Either I can be truthful, open,
Speaker 2: I can be myself and maybe I won't ever be loved.
Speaker 2: Or I can be secretive and I can conceal who
Speaker 2: I really am and maybe I can be loved. Those
Speaker 2: in our mind when we are shamed bound are the
Speaker 2: only two options. We never once think, well, maybe the
Speaker 2: things I'm ashamed of others would just see as part
Speaker 2: of me. That would just be something that they love
Speaker 2: and that they would nurture. That's not how chronic shame works.
Speaker 2: It's a very limited belief that if you are unworthy
Speaker 2: in some ways, you'd better be hiding that part of yourself.
Speaker 2: This results in a number of really really unfortunate, unhappy
Speaker 2: behaviors and compulsions, like the need to self isolate. If
Speaker 2: you've ever found yourself, you know, self isolating after a
Speaker 2: big social event and you don't think that you're an
Speaker 2: introvert or hiding away after like a really long exhausting
Speaker 2: day in front of people, or after a big presentation,
Speaker 2: or after you've spoken your mind, feeling the need to
Speaker 2: be silent. Maybe that comes from shame. There's also an
Speaker 2: intense embarrassment or anxiety in social situations. There is a
Speaker 2: self loathing, there is a self sabotage, feeling of rejection,
Speaker 2: all of which stop us from attempting anything that might
Speaker 2: make us feel seen, because that is what shame does.
Speaker 2: It's a minimizer. Literally, think about the physical actions and behaviors,
Speaker 2: the physicalities that a company feeling shame. Think about the
Speaker 2: last time that you were like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 2: feel ashamed. You were probably not making eye contact, you
Speaker 2: were slouching your shoulders, lowering your head, almost curling into yourself. Physically, socially, mentally,
Speaker 2: shame's goal is to shrink us. The opposite of shame
Speaker 2: in that sense is self acceptance excepting who you are,
Speaker 2: your body, your identity, how you've gotten here, even if
Speaker 2: you have regrets, and that self acceptance, that self confidence,
Speaker 2: that is what makes us expansive, self assured creatures, passionate, outspoken,
Speaker 2: loud about life creatures. And that's the goal here, that's
Speaker 2: the direction that we want to move in. But before
Speaker 2: we get there, I do need to give you few
Speaker 2: more crucial details about the pathology and the underworkings underpinnings
Speaker 2: of shame. So shame is universal. I know it feels
Speaker 2: like quite a solitary experience, that is the nature of it.
Speaker 2: But the only people on this planet who don't experience
Speaker 2: shame are those who have essentially no human empathy. They
Speaker 2: have no desire to be liked or be seen or
Speaker 2: accepted by others. So we might call these people psychopaths, right,
Speaker 2: and a few studies have found a very strong association
Speaker 2: between psychopathy and low shame proneness, which basically means that
Speaker 2: even if you were to do something that's like objectively
Speaker 2: wrong and immoral, you still don't feel bad about it.
Speaker 2: There was a really fascinating case study that I dug
Speaker 2: out of the archives and I was looking into this,
Speaker 2: and it's on a man, This an unnamed man who
Speaker 2: was in prison in the US, and he had admitted
Speaker 2: his crime. His crime was armed robbery and actually resulted
Speaker 2: in someone being murdered. But even years later, he felt
Speaker 2: no remorse at all, He felt no shame. He believed
Speaker 2: that he was justified because of how he was raised,
Speaker 2: and when he was in prison, he continued to steal,
Speaker 2: to lie, to do interviews, what he almost bragged about
Speaker 2: his crimes, whatever he could to basically get his way,
Speaker 2: even when it meant others were hurt. All because of that.
Speaker 2: You know that part of us that lights up when
Speaker 2: we hurt, we injure, we upset someone else. Our shame
Speaker 2: center his basically wasn't working. And that's kind of the
Speaker 2: alternative that we're working with. Shame is also very different
Speaker 2: to guilt. I know they are sometimes used interchangeably, but guilt,
Speaker 2: I actually believe it's adaptive. You know, it is tied
Speaker 2: to a specific situation in which we have done something
Speaker 2: objectively wrong, We've made a mistake, and we can say,
Speaker 2: you know, I feel guilty for how I've acted, because
Speaker 2: I've messed up, I've hurt someone, And that acknowledgment of
Speaker 2: a specific instance in which we have gone against our
Speaker 2: own kind of our own expectations for ourselves, our own standards,
Speaker 2: that makes us a better person. We bring ourselves back
Speaker 2: in line. Shame, on the other hand, it does not
Speaker 2: make you a better person. At no point is shame
Speaker 2: going to make you better. In fact, it's just so
Speaker 2: incredibly destructive because it rests on the premises that it's
Speaker 2: not just that we sometimes make mistakes, is that our
Speaker 2: whole sense of self we are a mistake. We are wrong,
Speaker 2: even when we have no evidence for that, even when
Speaker 2: it's not situation specific, like guilt. Oftentimes, when you feel shame,
Speaker 2: you begin to notice that no one's even around. You
Speaker 2: haven't hurt anyone, You are a good person, there's nothing
Speaker 2: that you can think of, but you still feel this
Speaker 2: deep sting just by existing. Also, I think the other
Speaker 2: key point here that I didn't mention before, guilt actually
Speaker 2: has somewhere to go right. You know, we can rectify
Speaker 2: our mistakes, we can apologize, it can motivate good behavior.
Speaker 2: Shame lingers, it doesn't exit. It just implants deeper and
Speaker 2: deeper within us. Something really important to remember is that
Speaker 2: no matter how long you have carried your shame, no
Speaker 2: matter how long you and shame have shared the same home,
Speaker 2: beIN companions, none of us were born ashamed of who
Speaker 2: we are. At some point, and this is a sad
Speaker 2: thing to say. Actually, someone had to teach you that
Speaker 2: there was something about how you look, how you act,
Speaker 2: your identity, your existence that was a defensive to them
Speaker 2: and that shouldn't be seen. Think about the shame that
Speaker 2: a lot of people used to associate with being queer,
Speaker 2: with being part of the lgbt QA plus community. At
Speaker 2: some point, someone said something really demeaning to you, or
Speaker 2: maybe someone's parents, so that they would be shamed to
Speaker 2: have a queer son or a queer daughter, or you know,
Speaker 2: you see things in the media that just villainize people
Speaker 2: who are literally just living their life. That is leading
Speaker 2: probably led a lot of people to internalize that therefore
Speaker 2: they are shameful and that is not the case. Or
Speaker 2: the shame of making a mistake as a child and
Speaker 2: being criticized for so much more than the action, you know,
Speaker 2: instead of just your parents scolding you and saying I
Speaker 2: can't believe you spilt the milk. It's I can't believe
Speaker 2: you are so clumsy, You are so lazy, You are worthless,
Speaker 2: you are useless. Can you see that shame is not
Speaker 2: about what you've done. It's associated with who you are?
Speaker 2: And how can any part of who you are be
Speaker 2: inherently shameful? It becomes implanted in our minds until the
Speaker 2: point where it is self imposed. We end up using
Speaker 2: it against ourselves without ever needing anyone else to tell
Speaker 2: it to us. Again, I heard doctor Pete Levine. He's
Speaker 2: a very well known trauma doctor and trauma specialist. Look
Speaker 2: him up if you're interested in this. But I heard
Speaker 2: him say in a video the other day that shame
Speaker 2: is like a cancer that grows from the injury of
Speaker 2: trauma and from the wound of betrayal, especially into personal
Speaker 2: trauma and interpersonal betrayal, which is basically the trauma we
Speaker 2: encounter from the transgressions and actions of others, especially people
Speaker 2: that we trust, And that cancer from these situations becomes
Speaker 2: deeply lodged in our bodies and our minds, and it
Speaker 2: affects and infects all other aspects of our life, your relationships,
Speaker 2: how you show up at work, in class, how you
Speaker 2: walk into a room, what you feel you deserve from
Speaker 2: your life. Nothing remains untouched. So how do we get
Speaker 2: to this place? This doesn't just happen. How do we
Speaker 2: get here? Well, Doctor Levine, same guy. He suggested that
Speaker 2: there are two specific pathways through which we adopt chronic
Speaker 2: shame or we become shamebound. The first is if you
Speaker 2: are traumatized or humiliated as a young child or a teenager,
Speaker 2: either by a parent, a sibling, a friend, a bully,
Speaker 2: a teacher, whoever it may be. Someone trespasses against your
Speaker 2: sense of self worth by harming you, by making you
Speaker 2: feel useless and small. And because of our limited critical
Speaker 2: thinking skills at the time or our limited life experience
Speaker 2: as children, the only way that we can make sense
Speaker 2: of what we're experiencing is by internalizing what has happened,
Speaker 2: which causes us to basically assume that something must be
Speaker 2: fundamentally wrong with us. We lay the blame on our
Speaker 2: own innate badness because we have to assume that we
Speaker 2: are the cause. The other common denominator, because how else
Speaker 2: could we continue to trust people? How could we continue
Speaker 2: to trust people that we rely on, like our parents,
Speaker 2: like our teachers, like our family. They must be right.
Speaker 2: This is actually part of what he proposes as a
Speaker 2: survival strategy. We cannot possibly think that the people that
Speaker 2: we rely on for security and safety would be wrong
Speaker 2: about things like this, because then they could be wrong
Speaker 2: about other things, and then you know who could help us.
Speaker 2: The other element of this, occurring in childhood especially, is
Speaker 2: that all the people that we feel ashamed or feel
Speaker 2: shamed by are often older and wiser, and so we
Speaker 2: deduce that they must know something about our character that
Speaker 2: we don't. They are the truthholders. We have this big
Speaker 2: red cross on us. They must be correct. We are
Speaker 2: wrong and awful and bad because they told us that
Speaker 2: we were. The more experiences we have like this, the
Speaker 2: more difficult it is to deny our badness, the more
Speaker 2: oppressive and entrenched the shame becomes. This can also be
Speaker 2: more pronounced for people who who's just identities in general
Speaker 2: are criticized by a very oppressive, dominating prejudice society. We
Speaker 2: do see higher rates of internalized shame in the queer community,
Speaker 2: amongst people of color, amongst people in marginalized religions, because
Speaker 2: there is this system that says, and there is this
Speaker 2: you know, it's held up by the media, it's held
Speaker 2: up by discrimination, by prejudice, by stereotypes that essentially says,
Speaker 2: we don't really like you that much, and there's no
Speaker 2: reason that we don't like you. There's just some part
Speaker 2: of you that's wrong. And it's just so awful that
Speaker 2: children from a very young age begin to pick that
Speaker 2: up shame. I really want this to be very apparent.
Speaker 2: Shame is not dispersed equally across society. The second way
Speaker 2: that chronic shame develops can come about a little bit later,
Speaker 2: and it really comes down to a fear of being
Speaker 2: left out, which feeds off again our fear of loneliness
Speaker 2: and our fear of being excluded, very human, primal fears.
Speaker 2: I don't think I have to tell you, hopefully, I
Speaker 2: don't have to tell you that community and belonging are
Speaker 2: so important. They're just literally our lifeblood. It's one of
Speaker 2: our foundational psychological needs, and not just a physical need,
Speaker 2: but an emotional need as well. There's a really well
Speaker 2: known study using fMRI technology, which is basically a machine
Speaker 2: that shows us which parts of our brains are active
Speaker 2: when we're doing certain things, and it examined the brains
Speaker 2: of people who were made to feel lonely, disconnected, and rejected,
Speaker 2: versus the brains of participants who are made to feel accepted, included,
Speaker 2: and connected. The brain scans of the participants who were
Speaker 2: made to feel isolated were just lighting up in the
Speaker 2: areas of the brain responsible for pain and perceiving danger,
Speaker 2: meaning that this experience of not being liked or welcomed
Speaker 2: was physically uncomfortable at times. Now, if you know what
Speaker 2: that feels like to have people not like you, and
Speaker 2: to not only have them not like you, but to
Speaker 2: make that known to be openly judged, you are going
Speaker 2: to work pretty hard to stop that from happening again.
Speaker 2: And here is where your shame, seemingly to you, feels
Speaker 2: useful because you're like, Okay, if I listen to my shame,
Speaker 2: I'll never step out of line. If I listen to
Speaker 2: my shame, I'll never do something that's wrong. I'll be
Speaker 2: able to make friends, I'll be loved. Any time you
Speaker 2: go to therefore, you know they're onwards. Go to change
Speaker 2: anything about yourself, to put yourself out there, to bet
Speaker 2: on yourself, to be authentic, vulnerable. That shameful voice comes
Speaker 2: in and says, don't do it. Don't let yourself be seen.
Speaker 2: The more visible you are, the less safe we are.
Speaker 2: Take a step back. That shameful voice. You think that
Speaker 2: it's acting as your protector. It's convincing you that it's
Speaker 2: keeping you safe from reject and exclusion. But you know,
Speaker 2: although our shame likes to masquerade as a form of
Speaker 2: self preservation, it ultimately limits your ability to experience life
Speaker 2: because it's keeping you tied down. So that smallness is
Speaker 2: one of the consequences of letting shame be the loudest
Speaker 2: voice in the room. And that's actually how I like
Speaker 2: to think about it. It's the guy in class in
Speaker 2: your meeting who's always interrupting you, you know. It's the
Speaker 2: voice that just doesn't know when to shut up. It's
Speaker 2: the voice that's saying, oh, well, actually this, well, actually that.
Speaker 2: Another real loss is that when when you are shame bound,
Speaker 2: even when good things happen to you, you still don't
Speaker 2: believe that you deserve them. When someone listens, when someone
Speaker 2: lets us be vulnerable and accepts us, we never totally
Speaker 2: accept it. We are waiting for the so called emotional
Speaker 2: jump scare because our self concept has been reprogrammed time
Speaker 2: and time again, to assume the worst, to have our guy,
Speaker 2: to cut ourselves down before someone else can. Actually, it's
Speaker 2: really interesting because it's really interesting, and this is kind
Speaker 2: of a side note, but there has been some really cool,
Speaker 2: fascinating research, not cool, but definitely fascinating research that shows
Speaker 2: that people who experience more shame often are quite obsessed
Speaker 2: with self improvement because they are constantly trying to fix
Speaker 2: or fix something about themselves or to show that they
Speaker 2: are deserving of things by working hard to change who
Speaker 2: they are. And so sometimes it's like, well, I can't
Speaker 2: have anything that comes easy because I don't deserve it,
Speaker 2: so there must be there is something deeply, deeply wrong
Speaker 2: about me that if I focus on self improvement, on
Speaker 2: getting really really fit, on learning, or making my life
Speaker 2: seem perfect, then I can prove that all these good
Speaker 2: things have actually worked hard for them. So quite an interesting,
Speaker 2: very interesting point of view, especially as someone who I'm like, ooh,
Speaker 2: I like work in the self help, self improved space.
Speaker 2: I want people to get the most out of their life.
Speaker 2: It's interesting how many of us might actually be doing
Speaker 2: that because of a shame of never being good enough,
Speaker 2: chronic shame. I think this is very similar is also
Speaker 2: reflected often in people pleasing, because we of course prioritize
Speaker 2: the opinions of others over our own. We want them
Speaker 2: to stay happy with us, even if it means a
Speaker 2: loss of personal identity and less personal fulfillment. And shame
Speaker 2: can also lead to self sabotaging behaviors where we consciously
Speaker 2: undermine our success or our happiness by procrastinating, by neglecting opportunities,
Speaker 2: neglecting relationships, minimizing ourselves in front of others, or even
Speaker 2: engaging in really risky behaviors to confirm negative beliefs about ourselves.
Speaker 2: Because when you have lived that long in shame, it
Speaker 2: feels like home. What's that quote? It's like better the
Speaker 2: hell you know than the heaven that you don't, And
Speaker 2: that is where we are at. I think another element
Speaker 2: of it is also, you know, success and doing well
Speaker 2: brings attention, and that spotlight might reveal even more aspects
Speaker 2: of us that we should be ashamed of, and we
Speaker 2: can't have that. So you know, you go out and
Speaker 2: get drunk the night before a big meeting, you ruin
Speaker 2: the relationship before it can progress. And at least you
Speaker 2: know you already feel comfortable in that understanding of yourself.
Speaker 2: You are a failure, You're not enough, You'll never deserve this.
Speaker 2: Can you kind of see what doctor Levine was saying.
Speaker 2: It is a cancer the way that shame manifests itself.
Speaker 2: It metastasizes into everything that we do. So what I
Speaker 2: want to talk about next is where we can go
Speaker 2: from here. We've identified the problem. I think maybe I'm
Speaker 2: saying things to you and you're just nodding your head,
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I already knew that. I've literally lived
Speaker 2: with this fears. What do I do about it? How
Speaker 2: do I be more big and vulnerable and authentic when
Speaker 2: I'm being told by my own brain to be quite
Speaker 2: small and visible. Well we are going to talk about
Speaker 2: all of that and a lot more after the short
Speaker 2: so stay with us. Shame is kind of like a
Speaker 2: bad habit. It won't change unless you do. And I'm
Speaker 2: not saying it won't change unless you get better and
Speaker 2: you prove it wrong. I mean that it's always going
Speaker 2: to feel like you're fighting with yourself until you accept it.
Speaker 2: Until it's almost like when you lay back in the
Speaker 2: ocean and you just let it take you and you
Speaker 2: lie in it and you realize that You've been struggling
Speaker 2: against something for so long that if you just turned
Speaker 2: around and said it's okay, I see you, I accept this,
Speaker 2: maybe it would start to fade a little bit. The person,
Speaker 2: and I've already mentioned her once in this episode, obviously
Speaker 2: I am obsessed, But the person I always turned to
Speaker 2: her for advice on this is Brene Brown. And obviously
Speaker 2: Brene Brown, She's made her career on shame, guilt, vulnerability,
Speaker 2: and the best thing she ever said about the shame
Speaker 2: cycle is that an actual bad person, a person who
Speaker 2: has done things they deserve to feel ashamed for, they
Speaker 2: would never sit down and question whether they are a
Speaker 2: bad person. They would never admit their mistakes. So the
Speaker 2: very fact that you were considering your worthiness as evidence
Speaker 2: in yourself that you are worthy. You are someone deserving
Speaker 2: of love, You have empathy, you are someone who is lovable,
Speaker 2: someone who can be forgiven, however big or large that
Speaker 2: mistake was, and you are actually it might sound surprising,
Speaker 2: you are someone who was enough, regardless of what makes
Speaker 2: you believe that is not true. So there are a
Speaker 2: few steps we can take to truly accepting that fact. First,
Speaker 2: don't let your shame be general force it to be specific.
Speaker 2: You know this sounds very strange, but you see, one
Speaker 2: of the reasons Shaane is so good at convincing us
Speaker 2: that we're worthless is it takes a single instant of
Speaker 2: embarrassment or a slip up or a thought and it
Speaker 2: applies the feeling to everything. So instead of saying, you know,
Speaker 2: I feel bad because I said the wrong thing to
Speaker 2: my really good friend and I hurt them, I feel
Speaker 2: awful because I wish I was a better friend in
Speaker 2: that moment, our shame takes that feeling and it removes
Speaker 2: a bunch of information and it concludes, well, I am bad,
Speaker 2: I am wrong, I am awful, even after the situation
Speaker 2: has long passed. That over generalization is what causes trouble.
Speaker 2: So instead, learn to add information back into the negative
Speaker 2: statements that you tell yourself. You need to realize that
Speaker 2: shame relies on you taking everything that it says truthfully
Speaker 2: and not interrogating how it could be so general. You know,
Speaker 2: are you really a bad person always without question? Or
Speaker 2: are you just feeling bad? So I want you to
Speaker 2: replace the I am awful with I'm feeling awful, I
Speaker 2: am wrong with I am just assuming that I'm wrong
Speaker 2: I feel I assume I'm thinking that I am. Use
Speaker 2: those exact words instead to kind of put some reality
Speaker 2: back into your faulty thinking. So let's use the example
Speaker 2: of a really common one, I am an unlovable person
Speaker 2: to kind of show how this works. Is this statement
Speaker 2: I am unlovable? True? Is it? You know? Is it fact?
Speaker 2: Could you find this fact on Wikipedia? Has someone done
Speaker 2: a peer reviewed experiment on this and come to you
Speaker 2: with a solid, you know, thesis conclusion hypothesis saying yeah,
Speaker 2: this is I've conducted, you know, millions of interviews and
Speaker 2: I did heaps of studies and oh, by the way, yes,
Speaker 2: you are unlovable? Or or is this an emotions based conclusion?
Speaker 2: It's emotions based, right, It's coming from you. So I
Speaker 2: want you to replace I am with I feel I
Speaker 2: feel like an unlovable person and then ask why is
Speaker 2: there something that has triggered this feeling? Is there a
Speaker 2: specific recent memory? Maybe there is, and you can add
Speaker 2: that in I feel unlovable because of how badly that
Speaker 2: date went. I feel unlovable because that person didn't treat
Speaker 2: me well. That puts distance between you and the immediate
Speaker 2: instinct to go to shame you can kind of now
Speaker 2: see that this isn't something intrinsic about you. It's actually
Speaker 2: a feeling, not a fact, and it's about how someone
Speaker 2: else chose to treat you. That's a sign of their
Speaker 2: flawed character, not your own. This is not a permanent fact.
Speaker 2: I just want to say that again. It's a momentary
Speaker 2: experience based on someone else's actions, not your inherent worth.
Speaker 2: The other alternative is that you may searching for a
Speaker 2: recent memory where you've been made to feel this way
Speaker 2: and you just can't find one. It's like no evidence,
Speaker 2: there's no reason why you should be feeling this way,
Speaker 2: and it must be based on something else. And that
Speaker 2: thing that it's based on a shame. It's not a
Speaker 2: real statement. There is no evidence for why you should
Speaker 2: be feeling this way. It's just shame. That is what
Speaker 2: it is. Either way, when we rely on those I
Speaker 2: am broad statements, they are just incorrect because they are
Speaker 2: way too general. Next, I think it's really worthwhile to
Speaker 2: explore your shame and try and find an origin point.
Speaker 2: Like you know how every villain has an origin story,
Speaker 2: Your shame has an origin story as well. As I
Speaker 2: said before, you know, no one is born feeling disgusting
Speaker 2: and deserving, shameful. It's a learned behavior, it's a learned habit.
Speaker 2: And when we do the really hard autobiographical work of
Speaker 2: looking back through our memories in our past, often that
Speaker 2: becomes very very clear, very quickly. You can see that
Speaker 2: there is a line between the thoughts and the feelings
Speaker 2: you have about yourself now and the things your younger
Speaker 2: self encountered and internalized. I'm going to provide an example,
Speaker 2: my own example here. I think of all the shame
Speaker 2: that I have felt about my body for years, and
Speaker 2: it was so hard to even think of where that
Speaker 2: may have come from, because my opinions of my bodies
Speaker 2: were just so hurtful to even touch. But when I reflected,
Speaker 2: I saw this very clear line in my memory, a
Speaker 2: before and after around a series of events. The first
Speaker 2: was a picture day when I was when I was seven,
Speaker 2: and we I don't know if you remember this, but
Speaker 2: we did our big class photo and I remember getting
Speaker 2: the photo and the boy, this boy said that I
Speaker 2: looked like a whale. I was wearing this little dress
Speaker 2: and I kind of looked at all the other girls
Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh my god, I'm bigger
Speaker 2: than them. Bear in mind, I was seven, Like I
Speaker 2: wasn't like, look at that. Now I feel the need
Speaker 2: to justify. I'm gonna I'm gona stop myself there. But
Speaker 2: I remember like taking the photo home and telling my
Speaker 2: mom that I was like, oh, there was a fan
Speaker 2: behind me. It was blowing my dress up. That's why
Speaker 2: I have such a belly. It's really sad to think
Speaker 2: of now that's how I felt. And that was my
Speaker 2: first experience of shame. And then maybe a week later,
Speaker 2: I was at after school care and we were watching
Speaker 2: a movie and I remember what it's called. It was
Speaker 2: called The Little Princess, and a much older boy said
Speaker 2: to me, you know you would look like her, meaning
Speaker 2: the main character, if you weren't so fat, And oh
Speaker 2: my god, I can still remember how I just had
Speaker 2: this like hot flush all across my face and my
Speaker 2: skin was like prinkly, like oh, just more. I wanted
Speaker 2: to hide. And that was the moment that I think
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is a new feeling. This
Speaker 2: is the feeling. This is shame. It's really kind of
Speaker 2: sad to relive those memories. But the self knowledge that
Speaker 2: came with that was so powerful, you know, to be
Speaker 2: an adult knowing so much better now and kind of
Speaker 2: rethinking how I would have responded. I know I would
Speaker 2: have stood up for my seven, I think maybe seven
Speaker 2: or eight year old self. And so now now that
Speaker 2: it's my own thoughts that are saying those cruel things,
Speaker 2: you look fat in that outfit, everyone is going to think,
Speaker 2: so you know, you should wear something more flattering, you
Speaker 2: should cover up. You know, that's my own voice now
Speaker 2: telling me those things. But I picture that voice as
Speaker 2: this ten year old boy, and I think, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: what do you know. You're a child. Shut up. I'm
Speaker 2: an adult. You're ten. I'm the adult. I'm gonna wear
Speaker 2: what I want. So that's how I picture it. I
Speaker 2: picture it as the first voice that I heard it
Speaker 2: as you know, when that shame was implanted in my brain.
Speaker 2: It was spoken as a ten year old. And I
Speaker 2: think about him, and you know, he's a fucking kid.
Speaker 2: I don't need to listen to that. That's one approach.
Speaker 2: Or I also think about myself as a child suddenly
Speaker 2: being very awoken to a world of judgment and unkindness,
Speaker 2: and it must have been such a shock, And I think,
Speaker 2: how would my present adult self comfort her if adult
Speaker 2: me had been in out building watching that situation, ready
Speaker 2: to intervene. What would I have done. I would have
Speaker 2: pulled her aside, and I would have said, you have value,
Speaker 2: no matter what anyone else thinks. I think you are
Speaker 2: the most beautiful girl in the world. And you deserve
Speaker 2: to love your body because it does so much for you.
Speaker 2: Look at how it takes care of you. You don't
Speaker 2: need to hide for anyone, especially not this boy. And
Speaker 2: confidence is going to be your superpower. And I would
Speaker 2: say those things. When you are reflecting on those origins
Speaker 2: of your shame, consciously bring empathy, kindness, compassion back into
Speaker 2: those memories. Because shame is so socially orientated, often we
Speaker 2: think that we need others to approve of us in
Speaker 2: order to heal from it. But there is a lot
Speaker 2: of self forgiveness that you can provide yourself. For me,
Speaker 2: it was about apologizing to my younger self for ever
Speaker 2: believing that this person knew who I was, or forever
Speaker 2: believing that I needed to hide, forever believing that something
Speaker 2: was wrong about me. I've learnt that's not the case,
Speaker 2: and now I'm going to go forward, and you're going
Speaker 2: to go forward, nurturing the part of you that still
Speaker 2: wants to withdraw and instead showing up as this big protector,
Speaker 2: this big strong person, this adult who is going to
Speaker 2: defend you. We also want to practice the kind of
Speaker 2: unconditional love that we've always craved by showing it to ourselves.
Speaker 2: Don't hide from the shame. In fact, speak it out loud.
Speaker 2: I'm ashamed of my past, I'm ashamed of who I am,
Speaker 2: I'm ashamed of my body. And yet, and yet I
Speaker 2: choose to love myself anyways because I am as deserving
Speaker 2: of love as anyone else. I love others unconditionally, so
Speaker 2: I can love myself the same way. In fact, think
Speaker 2: about all the people who know and love you, not
Speaker 2: because they're forced to, but because they want to. They
Speaker 2: want to be by your side. They have the freedom
Speaker 2: to be friends with anyone, and they are choosing with
Speaker 2: that freedom to love you. It's just a further proof
Speaker 2: of how brilliant you are. And wouldn't they love you
Speaker 2: even more the more they saw of you? Reflect on
Speaker 2: your own relationships here, doesn't your love only grow with
Speaker 2: more vulnerability when someone shows you more of who they are.
Speaker 2: Don't you just love them more? That goes both ways. Finally,
Speaker 2: I want you to question what staying small out of shame?
Speaker 2: What's it going to get you? And is that actually
Speaker 2: your dream destination in life? What is the cost of
Speaker 2: staying small versus the benefit of staying safe. Shame is
Speaker 2: just fear, and fear is something you don't have to
Speaker 2: listen to. It's a fear of failure. It's a fear
Speaker 2: of embarrassment, of loneliness. As we discussed before, and when
Speaker 2: you have your last moments on this earth, do you
Speaker 2: want to think, Oh, I'm so so glad I let
Speaker 2: myself be scared. That was a great decision. Or do
Speaker 2: you want to think, I'm so glad I let myself
Speaker 2: be free. I'm so glad I listened to the people
Speaker 2: that mattered and I ignored the rest. I'm so glad
Speaker 2: I let myself be authentic, vulnerable. I put myself out there.
Speaker 2: I took risks on myself. I just knew who the
Speaker 2: fuck I was. And I want a serious answer from you,
Speaker 2: because I do believe that you can overcome chronic shame.
Speaker 2: If you see what waits on the other side, that
Speaker 2: is a very motivating thing. And for me, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just been as we said, total acceptance, because why
Speaker 2: would I live my life based on what a mean
Speaker 2: voice says to me in my head when that's not
Speaker 2: even my voice, someone else's voice that's just snuck in there.
Speaker 2: It's not welcome for me. That has really helped me
Speaker 2: build a courage to try anything and everything, even if
Speaker 2: it goes wrong. It's It's resulted in the ability to
Speaker 2: commit to my dreams because I deserve them. It's evolved
Speaker 2: into the capacity to accept love, and I really want
Speaker 2: that for you. It does make me quite sad to
Speaker 2: think of how many of us don't realize that the
Speaker 2: root of everything we don't like about ourselves is not
Speaker 2: the fact that those things aren't worthy. It's that we
Speaker 2: just feel shameful about them. And shame is not a fact.
Speaker 2: It's a feeling. You know, the parts about yourself that
Speaker 2: you don't like, there is nothing inherently bad about them.
Speaker 2: It is that someone at some point has conditioned you,
Speaker 2: taught you to feel that way, and I don't want
Speaker 2: you to feel that way anymore. So I hope that
Speaker 2: this episode has helped you understand the root of it,
Speaker 2: has helped you go back and discover the origin, discover
Speaker 2: the villain, the villain origin story, and I hope that
Speaker 2: you start treating that younger version of yourself with the
Speaker 2: kindness that you always deserved, and that includes treating your
Speaker 2: current self with the kindness that they deserve. Because you
Speaker 2: and that child itself are not different. You're the same person,
Speaker 2: You're on the same timeline here. If you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 2: make sure you're following along. Maybe share it with a friend,
Speaker 2: share it with a parent if they might need to
Speaker 2: learn this lesson. That's a bit audacious. Just hopefully it
Speaker 2: reaches the people that it needs to reach. That's all
Speaker 2: I'm saying. Make sure that you are following us on
Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. If you have further questions, queries,
Speaker 2: stories to be shared, please let us know. We would
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. We're also taking episode suggestions.
Speaker 2: Just slide into our DMS and tell us what you
Speaker 2: want to hear about. Until next time, remember stay safe,
Speaker 2: stay kind, and most importantly, with this episode, be gentle
Speaker 2: with yourself. You don't deserve to live in shame. You
Speaker 2: don't deserve to be shame bound, not one bit. And
Speaker 2: we will talk very very soon.