1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we break 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: down the psychology of our twenties. This episode was listener requested. 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Actually it was requested a lot of times, a lot 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: of times, and as with all listener requested episodes, I 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: always am like, how have I never done this before? 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: Because when you start thinking about it, A lot of 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: us live with shame about who we are, and we 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: carry that in silence. We are ashamed, each of us. 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: I think of something in our lives, of our past, 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: our past mistakes, maybe our bodies, our choices, our identity, 17 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: our entire personhood at times, and that shame takes over 18 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: quite literally everything. It can become a constant companion and 19 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: everything that we do, so that when we wake up 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: we feel like we aren't good enough. When we want 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: to take a risk or do something brave, we can't 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: trust ourselves when good things happen to us, we think 23 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: we don't deserve them. Shame is above all else, at 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: its core, at its beginnings, it's a social or moral emotion. 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: That's what it was, what it's kind of evolved to be. 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: We feel it very intensely in situations where we believe 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: that we have upset, offended, disgusted someone, or when we 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: go against some social norm or moral health by society. 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: That means that perhaps we deserve to be punished, outcast, 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: we are unworthy of acceptance and forgiveness. This is what 31 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: makes it a deeply painful emotion that seems so hardwired 32 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: into our social brains. It's a way to make us behave, 33 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: make sure that we are good boys and girls, and 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: also that we hide behavior that we think others will 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: judge us for. We hide ourselves away all together when 36 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: we think that our mistakes or something about us makes 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: us unsavory as a whole, not worthy of being seen. 38 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: This is the problem with chronic shame. It's that we 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: don't just feel this emotion in response to specific circumstances, 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: because that would be guilt. We feel shame even when 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: we are alone, even when there is no audience, there 42 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: is no offensive behavior that we have committed. And that 43 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: is the kind of shame that I want to discuss today. 44 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: Toxic make shame that just doesn't accompany a hiccup or 45 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: small mistake, but which kind of ends up feeling like 46 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: part of our DNA. And that's what it means to 47 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: be shame bound. And it's one of the big battles 48 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: that a lot of us have to overcome in our 49 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: twenties to be released from this very oppressive force that 50 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: keeps us small. And that is what shame does. Shame 51 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: keeps us small because it becomes self imposed. 52 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: At some point. We don't need another person to give 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: us a dirty look, or to humiliate us, or to 54 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: expose us, reject us all of those things. We end 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: up doing them to ourselves in a way as a 56 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: way to stop us from being critiqued and seen, and 57 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: because we almost anticipate that if we were to show 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: up and try hard and be visible, someone is going 59 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: to find something about us that we deserve to be 60 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: ashamed of. I don't think that it will come as 61 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: a surprise that, sadly, this pattern has a lot of 62 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: roots in trauma, and not just the big trauma that 63 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: we think of, but small moments where we were made 64 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: to feel terrible and disgusting because of part of who 65 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 2: we were. So let's talk about it today. I want 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: to really discuss how shame gets implanted in our self concept, 67 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 2: what that feels like, what that does to our ambition, 68 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 2: what that does to our direction, but also some of 69 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 2: the best advice I have encountered in a long time 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: on how to release ourself from being shame bound. I 71 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: know this is something that a lot of us live 72 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: with for different reasons, and we're going to discuss those 73 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: as well. But I really hope that if the thing 74 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: what you might actually realize is that the thing that 75 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: is keeping you from everything you might want, everything that 76 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: you could be, is not a lack of effort. It's 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: not because you're lazy, it's not because you don't know 78 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: what you want. It's not because you're not capable. It's 79 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: because of an inherent shame that you feel around being 80 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: seen and being loud and being heard. So without further ado, 81 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: let's discuss the psychology of shame. Brene Brown is one 82 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: of my favorite favorite researchers people in general, and in 83 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: her very well known ted talk, which is called The 84 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: Power of Vulnerability, was released almost fourteen years ago. It's 85 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: incredibly popular. It's a must watch. She says that shame 86 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: is essentially the fear of disconnection, and it sits very 87 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 2: closely besides our fear of loneliness, of judgment, ostracization, and 88 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: social pain, because basically it is posing a very insidious 89 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: and toxic line of questioning. Is there something about me 90 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: that if other people were to know or were to say, 91 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: they would believe I wasn't worthy of belonging? And if 92 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: there is, I better hide it? Or else how could 93 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: I be loved and accepted? There is this kind of 94 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: toss up in our brain. Either I can be truthful, open, 95 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: I can be myself and maybe I won't ever be loved. 96 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: Or I can be secretive and I can conceal who 97 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: I really am and maybe I can be loved. Those 98 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: in our mind when we are shamed bound are the 99 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: only two options. We never once think, well, maybe the 100 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: things I'm ashamed of others would just see as part 101 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: of me. That would just be something that they love 102 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: and that they would nurture. That's not how chronic shame works. 103 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: It's a very limited belief that if you are unworthy 104 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: in some ways, you'd better be hiding that part of yourself. 105 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: This results in a number of really really unfortunate, unhappy 106 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: behaviors and compulsions, like the need to self isolate. If 107 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: you've ever found yourself, you know, self isolating after a 108 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: big social event and you don't think that you're an 109 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: introvert or hiding away after like a really long exhausting 110 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: day in front of people, or after a big presentation, 111 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: or after you've spoken your mind, feeling the need to 112 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: be silent. Maybe that comes from shame. There's also an 113 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: intense embarrassment or anxiety in social situations. There is a 114 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: self loathing, there is a self sabotage, feeling of rejection, 115 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: all of which stop us from attempting anything that might 116 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: make us feel seen, because that is what shame does. 117 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: It's a minimizer. Literally, think about the physical actions and behaviors, 118 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: the physicalities that a company feeling shame. Think about the 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: last time that you were like, oh my gosh, I 120 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: feel ashamed. You were probably not making eye contact, you 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: were slouching your shoulders, lowering your head, almost curling into yourself. Physically, socially, mentally, 122 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: shame's goal is to shrink us. The opposite of shame 123 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: in that sense is self acceptance excepting who you are, 124 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: your body, your identity, how you've gotten here, even if 125 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: you have regrets, and that self acceptance, that self confidence, 126 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: that is what makes us expansive, self assured creatures, passionate, outspoken, 127 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: loud about life creatures. And that's the goal here, that's 128 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: the direction that we want to move in. But before 129 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: we get there, I do need to give you few 130 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: more crucial details about the pathology and the underworkings underpinnings 131 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: of shame. So shame is universal. I know it feels 132 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: like quite a solitary experience, that is the nature of it. 133 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: But the only people on this planet who don't experience 134 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: shame are those who have essentially no human empathy. They 135 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: have no desire to be liked or be seen or 136 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: accepted by others. So we might call these people psychopaths, right, 137 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: and a few studies have found a very strong association 138 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: between psychopathy and low shame proneness, which basically means that 139 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 2: even if you were to do something that's like objectively 140 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: wrong and immoral, you still don't feel bad about it. 141 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: There was a really fascinating case study that I dug 142 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: out of the archives and I was looking into this, 143 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: and it's on a man, This an unnamed man who 144 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: was in prison in the US, and he had admitted 145 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: his crime. His crime was armed robbery and actually resulted 146 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: in someone being murdered. But even years later, he felt 147 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: no remorse at all, He felt no shame. He believed 148 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: that he was justified because of how he was raised, 149 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: and when he was in prison, he continued to steal, 150 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: to lie, to do interviews, what he almost bragged about 151 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: his crimes, whatever he could to basically get his way, 152 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: even when it meant others were hurt. All because of that. 153 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: You know that part of us that lights up when 154 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 2: we hurt, we injure, we upset someone else. Our shame 155 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: center his basically wasn't working. And that's kind of the 156 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: alternative that we're working with. Shame is also very different 157 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 2: to guilt. I know they are sometimes used interchangeably, but guilt, 158 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: I actually believe it's adaptive. You know, it is tied 159 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: to a specific situation in which we have done something 160 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: objectively wrong, We've made a mistake, and we can say, 161 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: you know, I feel guilty for how I've acted, because 162 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 2: I've messed up, I've hurt someone, And that acknowledgment of 163 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: a specific instance in which we have gone against our 164 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: own kind of our own expectations for ourselves, our own standards, 165 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: that makes us a better person. We bring ourselves back 166 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: in line. Shame, on the other hand, it does not 167 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: make you a better person. At no point is shame 168 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: going to make you better. In fact, it's just so 169 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: incredibly destructive because it rests on the premises that it's 170 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: not just that we sometimes make mistakes, is that our 171 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: whole sense of self we are a mistake. We are wrong, 172 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: even when we have no evidence for that, even when 173 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: it's not situation specific, like guilt. Oftentimes, when you feel shame, 174 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: you begin to notice that no one's even around. You 175 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: haven't hurt anyone, You are a good person, there's nothing 176 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: that you can think of, but you still feel this 177 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: deep sting just by existing. Also, I think the other 178 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: key point here that I didn't mention before, guilt actually 179 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: has somewhere to go right. You know, we can rectify 180 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: our mistakes, we can apologize, it can motivate good behavior. 181 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: Shame lingers, it doesn't exit. It just implants deeper and 182 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: deeper within us. Something really important to remember is that 183 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: no matter how long you have carried your shame, no 184 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 2: matter how long you and shame have shared the same home, 185 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: beIN companions, none of us were born ashamed of who 186 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: we are. At some point, and this is a sad 187 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: thing to say. Actually, someone had to teach you that 188 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 2: there was something about how you look, how you act, 189 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: your identity, your existence that was a defensive to them 190 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: and that shouldn't be seen. Think about the shame that 191 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people used to associate with being queer, 192 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: with being part of the lgbt QA plus community. At 193 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: some point, someone said something really demeaning to you, or 194 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: maybe someone's parents, so that they would be shamed to 195 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: have a queer son or a queer daughter, or you know, 196 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: you see things in the media that just villainize people 197 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: who are literally just living their life. That is leading 198 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: probably led a lot of people to internalize that therefore 199 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: they are shameful and that is not the case. Or 200 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: the shame of making a mistake as a child and 201 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: being criticized for so much more than the action, you know, 202 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: instead of just your parents scolding you and saying I 203 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: can't believe you spilt the milk. It's I can't believe 204 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,119 Speaker 2: you are so clumsy, You are so lazy, You are worthless, 205 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: you are useless. Can you see that shame is not 206 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: about what you've done. It's associated with who you are? 207 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: And how can any part of who you are be 208 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: inherently shameful? It becomes implanted in our minds until the 209 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: point where it is self imposed. We end up using 210 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: it against ourselves without ever needing anyone else to tell 211 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: it to us. Again, I heard doctor Pete Levine. He's 212 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: a very well known trauma doctor and trauma specialist. Look 213 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: him up if you're interested in this. But I heard 214 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: him say in a video the other day that shame 215 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: is like a cancer that grows from the injury of 216 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: trauma and from the wound of betrayal, especially into personal 217 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: trauma and interpersonal betrayal, which is basically the trauma we 218 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: encounter from the transgressions and actions of others, especially people 219 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,119 Speaker 2: that we trust, And that cancer from these situations becomes 220 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: deeply lodged in our bodies and our minds, and it 221 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: affects and infects all other aspects of our life, your relationships, 222 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: how you show up at work, in class, how you 223 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: walk into a room, what you feel you deserve from 224 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: your life. Nothing remains untouched. So how do we get 225 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: to this place? This doesn't just happen. How do we 226 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: get here? Well, Doctor Levine, same guy. He suggested that 227 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: there are two specific pathways through which we adopt chronic 228 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: shame or we become shamebound. The first is if you 229 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 2: are traumatized or humiliated as a young child or a teenager, 230 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: either by a parent, a sibling, a friend, a bully, 231 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: a teacher, whoever it may be. Someone trespasses against your 232 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: sense of self worth by harming you, by making you 233 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: feel useless and small. And because of our limited critical 234 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: thinking skills at the time or our limited life experience 235 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: as children, the only way that we can make sense 236 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: of what we're experiencing is by internalizing what has happened, 237 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: which causes us to basically assume that something must be 238 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: fundamentally wrong with us. We lay the blame on our 239 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: own innate badness because we have to assume that we 240 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: are the cause. The other common denominator, because how else 241 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: could we continue to trust people? How could we continue 242 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: to trust people that we rely on, like our parents, 243 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: like our teachers, like our family. They must be right. 244 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: This is actually part of what he proposes as a 245 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: survival strategy. We cannot possibly think that the people that 246 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: we rely on for security and safety would be wrong 247 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: about things like this, because then they could be wrong 248 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: about other things, and then you know who could help us. 249 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: The other element of this, occurring in childhood especially, is 250 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: that all the people that we feel ashamed or feel 251 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: shamed by are often older and wiser, and so we 252 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: deduce that they must know something about our character that 253 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: we don't. They are the truthholders. We have this big 254 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: red cross on us. They must be correct. We are 255 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: wrong and awful and bad because they told us that 256 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: we were. The more experiences we have like this, the 257 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: more difficult it is to deny our badness, the more 258 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: oppressive and entrenched the shame becomes. This can also be 259 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: more pronounced for people who who's just identities in general 260 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: are criticized by a very oppressive, dominating prejudice society. We 261 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: do see higher rates of internalized shame in the queer community, 262 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: amongst people of color, amongst people in marginalized religions, because 263 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: there is this system that says, and there is this 264 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: you know, it's held up by the media, it's held 265 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: up by discrimination, by prejudice, by stereotypes that essentially says, 266 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: we don't really like you that much, and there's no 267 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: reason that we don't like you. There's just some part 268 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: of you that's wrong. And it's just so awful that 269 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: children from a very young age begin to pick that 270 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: up shame. I really want this to be very apparent. 271 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: Shame is not dispersed equally across society. The second way 272 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: that chronic shame develops can come about a little bit later, 273 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: and it really comes down to a fear of being 274 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: left out, which feeds off again our fear of loneliness 275 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: and our fear of being excluded, very human, primal fears. 276 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: I don't think I have to tell you, hopefully, I 277 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: don't have to tell you that community and belonging are 278 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: so important. They're just literally our lifeblood. It's one of 279 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 2: our foundational psychological needs, and not just a physical need, 280 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: but an emotional need as well. There's a really well 281 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: known study using fMRI technology, which is basically a machine 282 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 2: that shows us which parts of our brains are active 283 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: when we're doing certain things, and it examined the brains 284 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: of people who were made to feel lonely, disconnected, and rejected, 285 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: versus the brains of participants who are made to feel accepted, included, 286 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: and connected. The brain scans of the participants who were 287 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: made to feel isolated were just lighting up in the 288 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: areas of the brain responsible for pain and perceiving danger, 289 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: meaning that this experience of not being liked or welcomed 290 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: was physically uncomfortable at times. Now, if you know what 291 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: that feels like to have people not like you, and 292 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: to not only have them not like you, but to 293 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: make that known to be openly judged, you are going 294 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: to work pretty hard to stop that from happening again. 295 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: And here is where your shame, seemingly to you, feels 296 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: useful because you're like, Okay, if I listen to my shame, 297 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: I'll never step out of line. If I listen to 298 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: my shame, I'll never do something that's wrong. I'll be 299 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: able to make friends, I'll be loved. Any time you 300 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: go to therefore, you know they're onwards. Go to change 301 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: anything about yourself, to put yourself out there, to bet 302 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: on yourself, to be authentic, vulnerable. That shameful voice comes 303 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: in and says, don't do it. Don't let yourself be seen. 304 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: The more visible you are, the less safe we are. 305 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: Take a step back. That shameful voice. You think that 306 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: it's acting as your protector. It's convincing you that it's 307 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: keeping you safe from reject and exclusion. But you know, 308 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 2: although our shame likes to masquerade as a form of 309 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: self preservation, it ultimately limits your ability to experience life 310 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: because it's keeping you tied down. So that smallness is 311 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: one of the consequences of letting shame be the loudest 312 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 2: voice in the room. And that's actually how I like 313 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: to think about it. It's the guy in class in 314 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: your meeting who's always interrupting you, you know. It's the 315 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: voice that just doesn't know when to shut up. It's 316 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: the voice that's saying, oh, well, actually this, well, actually that. 317 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: Another real loss is that when when you are shame bound, 318 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: even when good things happen to you, you still don't 319 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 2: believe that you deserve them. When someone listens, when someone 320 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 2: lets us be vulnerable and accepts us, we never totally 321 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: accept it. We are waiting for the so called emotional 322 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: jump scare because our self concept has been reprogrammed time 323 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: and time again, to assume the worst, to have our guy, 324 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: to cut ourselves down before someone else can. Actually, it's 325 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: really interesting because it's really interesting, and this is kind 326 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: of a side note, but there has been some really cool, 327 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: fascinating research, not cool, but definitely fascinating research that shows 328 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 2: that people who experience more shame often are quite obsessed 329 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: with self improvement because they are constantly trying to fix 330 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: or fix something about themselves or to show that they 331 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: are deserving of things by working hard to change who 332 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: they are. And so sometimes it's like, well, I can't 333 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: have anything that comes easy because I don't deserve it, 334 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: so there must be there is something deeply, deeply wrong 335 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: about me that if I focus on self improvement, on 336 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 2: getting really really fit, on learning, or making my life 337 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: seem perfect, then I can prove that all these good 338 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: things have actually worked hard for them. So quite an interesting, 339 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: very interesting point of view, especially as someone who I'm like, ooh, 340 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: I like work in the self help, self improved space. 341 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: I want people to get the most out of their life. 342 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: It's interesting how many of us might actually be doing 343 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: that because of a shame of never being good enough, 344 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: chronic shame. I think this is very similar is also 345 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: reflected often in people pleasing, because we of course prioritize 346 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: the opinions of others over our own. We want them 347 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: to stay happy with us, even if it means a 348 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: loss of personal identity and less personal fulfillment. And shame 349 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 2: can also lead to self sabotaging behaviors where we consciously 350 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: undermine our success or our happiness by procrastinating, by neglecting opportunities, 351 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: neglecting relationships, minimizing ourselves in front of others, or even 352 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: engaging in really risky behaviors to confirm negative beliefs about ourselves. 353 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: Because when you have lived that long in shame, it 354 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: feels like home. What's that quote? It's like better the 355 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: hell you know than the heaven that you don't, And 356 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: that is where we are at. I think another element 357 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: of it is also, you know, success and doing well 358 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: brings attention, and that spotlight might reveal even more aspects 359 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 2: of us that we should be ashamed of, and we 360 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: can't have that. So you know, you go out and 361 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: get drunk the night before a big meeting, you ruin 362 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: the relationship before it can progress. And at least you 363 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: know you already feel comfortable in that understanding of yourself. 364 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: You are a failure, You're not enough, You'll never deserve this. 365 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: Can you kind of see what doctor Levine was saying. 366 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: It is a cancer the way that shame manifests itself. 367 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: It metastasizes into everything that we do. So what I 368 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: want to talk about next is where we can go 369 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: from here. We've identified the problem. I think maybe I'm 370 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: saying things to you and you're just nodding your head, 371 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I already knew that. I've literally lived 372 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: with this fears. What do I do about it? How 373 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: do I be more big and vulnerable and authentic when 374 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: I'm being told by my own brain to be quite 375 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: small and visible. Well we are going to talk about 376 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: all of that and a lot more after the short 377 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: so stay with us. Shame is kind of like a 378 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: bad habit. It won't change unless you do. And I'm 379 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: not saying it won't change unless you get better and 380 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: you prove it wrong. I mean that it's always going 381 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: to feel like you're fighting with yourself until you accept it. 382 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 2: Until it's almost like when you lay back in the 383 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 2: ocean and you just let it take you and you 384 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: lie in it and you realize that You've been struggling 385 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: against something for so long that if you just turned 386 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 2: around and said it's okay, I see you, I accept this, 387 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 2: maybe it would start to fade a little bit. The person, 388 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: and I've already mentioned her once in this episode, obviously 389 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: I am obsessed, But the person I always turned to 390 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: her for advice on this is Brene Brown. And obviously 391 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: Brene Brown, She's made her career on shame, guilt, vulnerability, 392 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: and the best thing she ever said about the shame 393 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: cycle is that an actual bad person, a person who 394 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: has done things they deserve to feel ashamed for, they 395 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: would never sit down and question whether they are a 396 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: bad person. They would never admit their mistakes. So the 397 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: very fact that you were considering your worthiness as evidence 398 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: in yourself that you are worthy. You are someone deserving 399 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: of love, You have empathy, you are someone who is lovable, 400 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: someone who can be forgiven, however big or large that 401 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: mistake was, and you are actually it might sound surprising, 402 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: you are someone who was enough, regardless of what makes 403 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: you believe that is not true. So there are a 404 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: few steps we can take to truly accepting that fact. First, 405 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 2: don't let your shame be general force it to be specific. 406 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: You know this sounds very strange, but you see, one 407 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: of the reasons Shaane is so good at convincing us 408 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: that we're worthless is it takes a single instant of 409 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 2: embarrassment or a slip up or a thought and it 410 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: applies the feeling to everything. So instead of saying, you know, 411 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: I feel bad because I said the wrong thing to 412 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: my really good friend and I hurt them, I feel 413 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: awful because I wish I was a better friend in 414 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: that moment, our shame takes that feeling and it removes 415 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: a bunch of information and it concludes, well, I am bad, 416 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: I am wrong, I am awful, even after the situation 417 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: has long passed. That over generalization is what causes trouble. 418 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: So instead, learn to add information back into the negative 419 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,239 Speaker 2: statements that you tell yourself. You need to realize that 420 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: shame relies on you taking everything that it says truthfully 421 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: and not interrogating how it could be so general. You know, 422 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 2: are you really a bad person always without question? Or 423 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: are you just feeling bad? So I want you to 424 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: replace the I am awful with I'm feeling awful, I 425 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 2: am wrong with I am just assuming that I'm wrong 426 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: I feel I assume I'm thinking that I am. Use 427 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: those exact words instead to kind of put some reality 428 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: back into your faulty thinking. So let's use the example 429 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 2: of a really common one, I am an unlovable person 430 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: to kind of show how this works. Is this statement 431 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: I am unlovable? True? Is it? You know? Is it fact? 432 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: Could you find this fact on Wikipedia? Has someone done 433 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: a peer reviewed experiment on this and come to you 434 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: with a solid, you know, thesis conclusion hypothesis saying yeah, 435 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: this is I've conducted, you know, millions of interviews and 436 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: I did heaps of studies and oh, by the way, yes, 437 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: you are unlovable? Or or is this an emotions based conclusion? 438 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: It's emotions based, right, It's coming from you. So I 439 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: want you to replace I am with I feel I 440 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: feel like an unlovable person and then ask why is 441 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: there something that has triggered this feeling? Is there a 442 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: specific recent memory? Maybe there is, and you can add 443 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: that in I feel unlovable because of how badly that 444 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: date went. I feel unlovable because that person didn't treat 445 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: me well. That puts distance between you and the immediate 446 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: instinct to go to shame you can kind of now 447 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: see that this isn't something intrinsic about you. It's actually 448 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: a feeling, not a fact, and it's about how someone 449 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: else chose to treat you. That's a sign of their 450 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: flawed character, not your own. This is not a permanent fact. 451 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 2: I just want to say that again. It's a momentary 452 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: experience based on someone else's actions, not your inherent worth. 453 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: The other alternative is that you may searching for a 454 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: recent memory where you've been made to feel this way 455 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: and you just can't find one. It's like no evidence, 456 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: there's no reason why you should be feeling this way, 457 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: and it must be based on something else. And that 458 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 2: thing that it's based on a shame. It's not a 459 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 2: real statement. There is no evidence for why you should 460 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: be feeling this way. It's just shame. That is what 461 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: it is. Either way, when we rely on those I 462 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 2: am broad statements, they are just incorrect because they are 463 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: way too general. Next, I think it's really worthwhile to 464 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: explore your shame and try and find an origin point. 465 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: Like you know how every villain has an origin story, 466 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 2: Your shame has an origin story as well. As I 467 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: said before, you know, no one is born feeling disgusting 468 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: and deserving, shameful. It's a learned behavior, it's a learned habit. 469 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: And when we do the really hard autobiographical work of 470 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: looking back through our memories in our past, often that 471 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: becomes very very clear, very quickly. You can see that 472 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: there is a line between the thoughts and the feelings 473 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: you have about yourself now and the things your younger 474 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: self encountered and internalized. I'm going to provide an example, 475 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: my own example here. I think of all the shame 476 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: that I have felt about my body for years, and 477 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: it was so hard to even think of where that 478 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: may have come from, because my opinions of my bodies 479 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: were just so hurtful to even touch. But when I reflected, 480 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: I saw this very clear line in my memory, a 481 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: before and after around a series of events. The first 482 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: was a picture day when I was when I was seven, 483 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: and we I don't know if you remember this, but 484 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: we did our big class photo and I remember getting 485 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: the photo and the boy, this boy said that I 486 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: looked like a whale. I was wearing this little dress 487 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: and I kind of looked at all the other girls 488 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh my god, I'm bigger 489 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: than them. Bear in mind, I was seven, Like I 490 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 2: wasn't like, look at that. Now I feel the need 491 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: to justify. I'm gonna I'm gona stop myself there. But 492 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: I remember like taking the photo home and telling my 493 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: mom that I was like, oh, there was a fan 494 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 2: behind me. It was blowing my dress up. That's why 495 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: I have such a belly. It's really sad to think 496 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: of now that's how I felt. And that was my 497 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: first experience of shame. And then maybe a week later, 498 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: I was at after school care and we were watching 499 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: a movie and I remember what it's called. It was 500 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: called The Little Princess, and a much older boy said 501 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: to me, you know you would look like her, meaning 502 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: the main character, if you weren't so fat, And oh 503 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: my god, I can still remember how I just had 504 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: this like hot flush all across my face and my 505 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: skin was like prinkly, like oh, just more. I wanted 506 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: to hide. And that was the moment that I think 507 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is a new feeling. This 508 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: is the feeling. This is shame. It's really kind of 509 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: sad to relive those memories. But the self knowledge that 510 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: came with that was so powerful, you know, to be 511 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 2: an adult knowing so much better now and kind of 512 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: rethinking how I would have responded. I know I would 513 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: have stood up for my seven, I think maybe seven 514 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: or eight year old self. And so now now that 515 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: it's my own thoughts that are saying those cruel things, 516 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: you look fat in that outfit, everyone is going to think, 517 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: so you know, you should wear something more flattering, you 518 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: should cover up. You know, that's my own voice now 519 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: telling me those things. But I picture that voice as 520 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: this ten year old boy, and I think, oh my gosh, 521 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: what do you know. You're a child. Shut up. I'm 522 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 2: an adult. You're ten. I'm the adult. I'm gonna wear 523 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: what I want. So that's how I picture it. I 524 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: picture it as the first voice that I heard it 525 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: as you know, when that shame was implanted in my brain. 526 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: It was spoken as a ten year old. And I 527 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: think about him, and you know, he's a fucking kid. 528 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: I don't need to listen to that. That's one approach. 529 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: Or I also think about myself as a child suddenly 530 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: being very awoken to a world of judgment and unkindness, 531 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: and it must have been such a shock, And I think, 532 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: how would my present adult self comfort her if adult 533 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: me had been in out building watching that situation, ready 534 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: to intervene. What would I have done. I would have 535 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: pulled her aside, and I would have said, you have value, 536 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: no matter what anyone else thinks. I think you are 537 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: the most beautiful girl in the world. And you deserve 538 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: to love your body because it does so much for you. 539 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: Look at how it takes care of you. You don't 540 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: need to hide for anyone, especially not this boy. And 541 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: confidence is going to be your superpower. And I would 542 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: say those things. When you are reflecting on those origins 543 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: of your shame, consciously bring empathy, kindness, compassion back into 544 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: those memories. Because shame is so socially orientated, often we 545 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: think that we need others to approve of us in 546 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: order to heal from it. But there is a lot 547 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: of self forgiveness that you can provide yourself. For me, 548 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: it was about apologizing to my younger self for ever 549 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: believing that this person knew who I was, or forever 550 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: believing that I needed to hide, forever believing that something 551 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: was wrong about me. I've learnt that's not the case, 552 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: and now I'm going to go forward, and you're going 553 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: to go forward, nurturing the part of you that still 554 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: wants to withdraw and instead showing up as this big protector, 555 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 2: this big strong person, this adult who is going to 556 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: defend you. We also want to practice the kind of 557 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: unconditional love that we've always craved by showing it to ourselves. 558 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: Don't hide from the shame. In fact, speak it out loud. 559 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: I'm ashamed of my past, I'm ashamed of who I am, 560 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: I'm ashamed of my body. And yet, and yet I 561 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: choose to love myself anyways because I am as deserving 562 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: of love as anyone else. I love others unconditionally, so 563 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: I can love myself the same way. In fact, think 564 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: about all the people who know and love you, not 565 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: because they're forced to, but because they want to. They 566 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: want to be by your side. They have the freedom 567 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: to be friends with anyone, and they are choosing with 568 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: that freedom to love you. It's just a further proof 569 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: of how brilliant you are. And wouldn't they love you 570 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: even more the more they saw of you? Reflect on 571 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 2: your own relationships here, doesn't your love only grow with 572 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 2: more vulnerability when someone shows you more of who they are. 573 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: Don't you just love them more? That goes both ways. Finally, 574 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 2: I want you to question what staying small out of shame? 575 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: What's it going to get you? And is that actually 576 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 2: your dream destination in life? What is the cost of 577 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: staying small versus the benefit of staying safe. Shame is 578 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: just fear, and fear is something you don't have to 579 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: listen to. It's a fear of failure. It's a fear 580 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 2: of embarrassment, of loneliness. As we discussed before, and when 581 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: you have your last moments on this earth, do you 582 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: want to think, Oh, I'm so so glad I let 583 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: myself be scared. That was a great decision. Or do 584 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: you want to think, I'm so glad I let myself 585 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 2: be free. I'm so glad I listened to the people 586 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: that mattered and I ignored the rest. I'm so glad 587 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: I let myself be authentic, vulnerable. I put myself out there. 588 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: I took risks on myself. I just knew who the 589 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 2: fuck I was. And I want a serious answer from you, 590 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: because I do believe that you can overcome chronic shame. 591 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 2: If you see what waits on the other side, that 592 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: is a very motivating thing. And for me, you know, 593 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: it's just been as we said, total acceptance, because why 594 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: would I live my life based on what a mean 595 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: voice says to me in my head when that's not 596 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 2: even my voice, someone else's voice that's just snuck in there. 597 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: It's not welcome for me. That has really helped me 598 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: build a courage to try anything and everything, even if 599 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: it goes wrong. It's It's resulted in the ability to 600 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: commit to my dreams because I deserve them. It's evolved 601 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 2: into the capacity to accept love, and I really want 602 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: that for you. It does make me quite sad to 603 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 2: think of how many of us don't realize that the 604 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: root of everything we don't like about ourselves is not 605 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: the fact that those things aren't worthy. It's that we 606 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 2: just feel shameful about them. And shame is not a fact. 607 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: It's a feeling. You know, the parts about yourself that 608 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: you don't like, there is nothing inherently bad about them. 609 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: It is that someone at some point has conditioned you, 610 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: taught you to feel that way, and I don't want 611 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: you to feel that way anymore. So I hope that 612 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 2: this episode has helped you understand the root of it, 613 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: has helped you go back and discover the origin, discover 614 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 2: the villain, the villain origin story, and I hope that 615 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 2: you start treating that younger version of yourself with the 616 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: kindness that you always deserved, and that includes treating your 617 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: current self with the kindness that they deserve. Because you 618 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: and that child itself are not different. You're the same person, 619 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: You're on the same timeline here. If you enjoyed this episode, 620 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 2: make sure you're following along. Maybe share it with a friend, 621 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: share it with a parent if they might need to 622 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: learn this lesson. That's a bit audacious. Just hopefully it 623 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: reaches the people that it needs to reach. That's all 624 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: I'm saying. Make sure that you are following us on 625 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 2: Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. If you have further questions, queries, 626 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 2: stories to be shared, please let us know. We would 627 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. We're also taking episode suggestions. 628 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: Just slide into our DMS and tell us what you 629 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 2: want to hear about. Until next time, remember stay safe, 630 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: stay kind, and most importantly, with this episode, be gentle 631 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: with yourself. You don't deserve to live in shame. You 632 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 2: don't deserve to be shame bound, not one bit. And 633 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 2: we will talk very very soon.