WEBVTT - 120: The Robopod With Meredith Whittaker 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.480 It's nine eighteen pm at the Malaga Inn and you're 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:16.239 listening to Night Call. Hello, and welcome to night Call, 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.080 a call in show for artist Topy in Reality. My 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.479 name is Emily Oshida, and with me on the other 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:28.320 line are Molly Lambert and Tess Lynch. Also stay tuned 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.600 because later in the show we have Meredith Whittaker, the 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.480 research professor and co founder of the AI Now Institute 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:35.760 at n y u UM. She was also involved in 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.760 the Google walkouts. She's awesome, so please stick around to 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:43.680 hear her. Come by later. Hi, guys, but first I'm back. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.560 I'm back from my truck across the country. Thank you 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.440 both for holding down the fort while I communed with 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:58.440 the Highway after but here after Highway Uh yeah, I 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.600 did a six day trip across the country and it 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.520 wouldn't have been complete if I didn't stay at a 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:11.479 ghost hotel my last night, uh in Mobile, Alabama. So 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.120 I actually, I mean I wish that I had a 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.200 more colorful story to share with you, because you guys 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.440 are like call us from the hotel, like, like, you know, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:21.880 tell us what it's like. It was like it was 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.319 actually just like nice, It was like a nice kind 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:31.600 of very Southern style old hotel that was surprisingly affordable, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.160 which is why I went there. I was like, this, 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:35.480 there's got to be a scam. Like, I'm that's the 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.080 benefit of a ghost I know. I was like, I 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.160 was like, what's the catch because it's so nice. It 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:43.360 was like one of the cleanest places I stayed, which 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.960 was a big concern over my trip. Um. But I also, 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.240 you know, it's on the It's on all these lists 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:54.200 of haunted hotels in UM in the South and this once. Yeah, 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.720 it's called the Malaga in it's in Mobile, Alabama. I 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.560 you know, I booked it, and then I went, I 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.800 should have done this in the other order. I booked it, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.400 and then I went looking for ghost stories about it. Um. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.760 But there was one I sent you guys that I 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.359 just want to bring up again because it actually did 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:16.600 kind of freak me out. UM. But this is on 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.000 I wish I remember what sight this was on. But 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.880 somebody said, my sister and I stayed at the Malaga 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.120 in in summer. Uh. They had a great dinner and 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.359 spent their time out on the balcony and joying the evening. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.680 But in the middle of the night, I was awakened 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.600 by my sister screaming bloody murder because someone had crawled 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.840 into bed with her, and even worse what she realized 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.040 there was no one there. And the next day they 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.440 asked the friend dusk about it, and apparently the room 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.799 they were in was the one with the activity, which 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.760 is apparently room one oh seven at this hotel. So 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.560 I stayed in room one oh three. I was two 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.160 doors down from there, but I was in a historic room. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.040 There were parts of the hotel that we're part of 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.280 the original structure, and then ones that came in later. 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:58.919 So I made sure to get one that was like 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.239 in in the good and haunted zone. Uh. There's other 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.040 stuff that I read about it that said like it 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.960 was a there's creaking and activity and apparently because it 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.560 was used as a hideout for Confederate soldiers, um, which 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:14.960 I was like, it was Mobile, Alabama. Where why are 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.920 they hiding out? But I I don't I guess I 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.120 don't know what how that worked. As with all things 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.359 in the South, is incredibly haunted, as with all things 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.079 in America, it was incredibly hunted. But um, but nothing 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.480 really weird happened while I was there. As I said, 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.560 it was pretty chill and just sort of nice to 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.320 be somewhere that was like not a chain hotel. It 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.520 was just like pleasant. But a weird thing did happen 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.280 when I there was like a portrait of like a 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.640 Southern bell on the wall next to my bed, and 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.000 I was just like lying in bed looking at my 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.800 phone and then I just like aimlessly sort of put 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:52.600 my phone up and tried to take a picture of it, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:54.880 and my phone would not take a picture of it. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.400 I tried and tried, and it did this weird glitchy 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.840 thing that my phone has never done before, where like 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.240 the image on it seemed to slow down. It wasn't like, um, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.520 it wasn't in sync with like how I was moving 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.360 my phone around. It was sort of like there was 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.040 a big delay and it was like in slow mo. 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:11.760 And then I just turned it and I pointed it 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.160 at another part of the room and it took a 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.440 picture just fine. Then I went back to take a 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.359 picture of the portrait and it couldn't take a picture 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.719 of the portrait, so, um, I have like a blurry, 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.000 dark photo that it tried to take but it would 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:28.160 not get a proper photo. So that's as weird as 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.520 it got. That's pretty weird. That's pretty weird. Yeah, but 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.520 I wanted to I wanted a real encounter. I want, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:40.280 I want to believe. But I guess next time, whenever 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.160 I make my trip back, I'll try to hit all 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:47.039 the haunts haunted portrait good enough, Yeah, I'll take it. Um. 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.320 Speaking of haunted things and and the cousin of haunted 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.640 things witchy things, it's been a while since we've had 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.919 a Moon minute. Minute. I think it's time for a 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:03.440 Moon minute because baby witches were trying to hex them moon. Yeah, baby, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.160 which is from Witchtok, which is the witch part of TikTok. Yeah, 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.320 everything comes from TikTok. Now, apparently this is just gonna 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.560 pivot to be a hundred percent TikTok podcast because they're 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:23.360 giving us lots of material recently. Yeah, I just thought. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.440 I also, like, I was not online a lot, but 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.520 I just I did see a lot of stuff. Every 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.600 time I would go on Twitter, people just being like 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.560 what's up with the moon? And I didn't know what 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.520 people were talking about most of the time. But then 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.520 and then I caught onto this thing that was going 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.440 on with with the baby witches, where apparently it became 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.640 a thing on TikTok to hex the moon. Um. They 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.479 first tried to hex the fae, which are like, uh 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:56.720 like kind of fairies, like the fair folk Celtics specific 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.279 fairy folks. Yes, yeah, and then and then they decided 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:06.400 to try the moon. Uh. And it's not clear to 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:12.560 me why other than for lulls um, which just feels 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.560 like for the lulls feels like a very chaotic spirit 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.080 to go into being a baby, which but I guess 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.279 that's the nature of being a baby, which um. But 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.760 people were getting really mad and there was a rumor 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.640 floating around Twitter, which I have no idea if it's 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.920 true or not, that a twelve year old girl was 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:35.359 was killed after trying to hex the moon. I hope 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.840 this feels very creepy pasta ish, but I don't so 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.240 I have no I mean, if that's true, it's horrible. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.560 I also don't know if the moon is responsible, but 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.599 either way, bad bad news. But um, but still like this, 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.080 this kind of urban legends sort of grew up around 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.080 these moon hexes that are going on. Well, the reasons 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.920 why you shouldn't hex the moon are pretty straightforward. I guess, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.200 um it's because any well, anytime you do evil magic, 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.240 it's going to come back to you and uh come 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.960 back to you times three, they say. But hacking the 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.480 moon also angers the gods that rule the moon, who 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:20.360 are Apollo and Artemis. I think, um, Artemis rules the moon, 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:25.240 Apollo rules the Sun, and Apollo is twins with Artemis. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.560 That's right, so he gets mad if you do anything 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.880 to insult his sister. Yeah. But also so now the baby, 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.760 which is we're saying they were going to curse the 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:40.160 sun and if you mess with Apollo, apparently Apollo rules 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:45.240 you know, the arts and creativity, but also healing and medicine. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.920 Uh so not a super smart thing to do if 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:54.880 that time. Yeah, Um, personally I would not funk with 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.360 the moon. Well the moon is I just don't. What 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.440 did the moon do to you? The whon is a 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.600 friend to all witches and other people. I'm just picturing 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.720 that part in the craft where Nancy's like just overcome 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.240 with how much power she has, you know, and you're like, 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.320 why I can do anything? And that's maybe how you 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.480 think you should hack the moon. I just I also 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.080 don't if they're baby, which is can they even this is? 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.680 This is the sort of cycle I get into it. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.160 Think eat about that this, like, how are they even 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.880 being successful at hexing them? That they had come into 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.080 their power yet? But yeah, like I don't I don't 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.800 know how they would even be capable of doing such 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:35.960 a thing. I just think if there are enough of 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.280 them that the collective energy. But also Mary Anne Williamson 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.680 weighed in on this, Oh yeah, yeah, which is funny. Yeah, 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.480 she said, uh, that's got to be some really drunk 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.760 or stoned hashtag baby, which is if they think that 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.000 in the midst of a hashtag secret police invasion of Portland's, 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.760 the best they can do is hex the moon all 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.560 caps face palma, om gi uh, which is true. I 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.880 don't know why these again, I don't get it. Like 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.559 I remember when that like all the Bushwick, which is, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.000 we're trying to hex Donald Trump at one point, like 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.280 you know, maybe in year one or two of the 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.920 of the Trump presidency, and that I understood. I actually 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.320 I feel that somehow if everybody, like enough people at 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:29.600 the same time or concentrating on somebody's head exploding allegedly, uh, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.440 that that could happen. Maybe, Like I I do think 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:41.199 that maybe there's energy that are you talking about scanners magic. Yes, yes, exactly, 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:47.520 that's the only that's my Scannermancy, that's my that's my trade. Um. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.640 But uh yeah. But and so that felt, you know, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.800 like there was a clear political motive there. But the 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:59.480 moon thing is beyond me. It's the chaos of the youth. Um. 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.080 There's something else going on in the sky, which is well, 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.480 they will no longer be going on in the sky 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.840 when you hear this podcast. But there has been a 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.720 comment that Emily has been trying to see I've been guys, 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.840 haven't you guys haven't I haven't seen it. I haven't 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.440 been able to see it. I haven't been anywhere dark enough. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.679 But the planets are really bright right now. Yeah. I 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.520 saw Jupiter when I was driving U. I listened to 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.000 you know that that syndicated MPR show where they just 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.520 say what planets are out, and they said that Jupiter 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.559 was out, So I like, I made a point to 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.400 check out Jupiter because you could. It's it's like a 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.680 very bright star. It's like a very bright, warm looking 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.199 star when it's out. But it's it's always cool when 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.400 you can see it. When I see the planets in 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.200 the moon. The last thing I want to do is 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:52.679 hex them. Yeah right, I wanna, I wanna get them whatever. 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.319 We are pro planet on this podcast. Um, speaking of TikTok, 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.560 Let's take a quick break and then we will be 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:19.040 back with more TikTok updates. Welcome back to Night Call. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:24.720 We got a night email updating us on cottage Core, 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.400 which we spoke about. It turns out without really knowing 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.439 anything about it, which is something we're trying to be 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:35.080 better about doing. But we love when you write in 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.000 and tell us things that we didn't know. So here's 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.080 the email we got. Hi, everyone, I was a little 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.000 surprised by how you talked about cottage core, though I 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.320 had heard rumbles it was starting to be co opted 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.520 by fascists. Cottage core as I've encountered it on TikTok. Yes, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.280 I'm another gen Z listener is primarily a queer, specifically 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.920 sapphic aesthetic. I think cottage cores appeal is a something 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.560 of an escapist fan of See you and your partner 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:07.120 can escape a homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, capitalistic society by isolating 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.800 yourselves in a cottage where you raise chickens and embroidered together. UM. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.800 Cottage core, though, can glorify history based on exploitation of 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.599 black and indigenous folks, which is something you discussed on 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.760 the episode, and I think is important to discuss in 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.800 the context of its use as a queer aesthetic, especially 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.040 since the prominent cottage core influencers are predominantly white. Thanks 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:33.320 for all the work you do. Thanks so much, listener, Katie. Yeah, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.920 I don't. I still don't really have a grasp on 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.480 on cottage core that this really helped out a lot. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.079 Uh And there was she also linked to uh article 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:49.319 in paper about about just explaining cottage core. I don't 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.000 remember if I said it on the pot or not, 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.520 but like I kind of hypothesize that that a lot 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.480 of Miyazaki movies are a cottage core just because of 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:02.840 this sort of almost did how from history fetishization of 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:10.120 like a kind of Bavarian slash Italian aesthetic, like a 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:15.920 very Euro old world euro aesthetic, um like reappropriating it 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.520 for his own kind of mythology and everything. I think 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.319 there's always tons of that going on in all contexts. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.680 I think the people were kind of commenting on the 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.960 fact that it does tend to be a pretty white aesthetic, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.640 which is what from from the little that I had 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:37.200 seen I had also witnessed as well. But it is Walden, 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:42.200 the original cottage Core. It's Henry David Thorreau, the first 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.840 contin Yeah, because it's like that's the thing, Like, it's 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.800 like the same thing as country music. It's like, you know, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.560 the myth of Walden and the then the myth of 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.160 of actually going out into the wilderness is is kind 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.920 of like inescapable from these things. Like country music was 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.400 never really about anybody living in the country. It was 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.400 all about like an imagined as a nostalgia for a 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:12.520 country life, for like a rural lifestyle or something. Um So, 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.360 I think that that's just like it's almost inescapable. Anytime 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.600 you try to like codify a vibe that there's going 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.160 to be some mythologizing there. Um Yeah. One thing I 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.440 didn't mention last time, but there was like a like 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.240 a Japanese subculture called Mori girls that I was like, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.600 is that what this is? That? Are that are forest girls? Totally? Yeah. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.080 That was like sort of the anti gothic Lolita, like 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:50.280 very minimal like earth tones and likes clothing. Yeah, it's 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.360 a very familiar Internet esthetic. It's a you know, in 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.720 the in the family of the Autumn Lovers UM, and 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.160 it came up a lot last night because of the 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.040 new Taylor Swift album coming out. I was gonna say, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.640 is this not cottage core? Is she not going right 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.160 into the cottage core. I'm just gonna say, tread carefully, Molly. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.640 Every time you mentioned Taylor Swift, you enrage her fans, 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:16.920 and I don't want them coming for us. I I 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.080 love Taylor, don't. It's not me. I welcome to this 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.240 course with the Swift Eats. People are specifically like, UM, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.120 the band Muna, who I really love, UM did a 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.080 treet where they were like, the Taylor Swift album is 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:35.400 for like sapphic cottage core influencers. UM, because a lot 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.120 of people are reading some kind of sapphic vibes into it, 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.600 and UM, people are like because she wrote she wrote 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.720 one song from the perspective of a of a male 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.560 voice where it's um, you know, talking about girls. But 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.480 people were sort of like, what's this all about? But 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.720 I think also it's like, whether that is Taylor's intent 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.640 or not. UM, it's definitely like resonating with a lot 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.160 of people that are into the queer cottage chor aesthetic. Well, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.800 cottage corep also just is very timely obviously. Yeah, it 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.320 makes I mean, it's a it's almost practical at this 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.840 point that being trapped in your home but also so 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.840 tethered to technology makes you consider that the only other 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.000 option of being trapped at home that is more appealing 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.280 than being tethered to technology is being trapped at home 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.480 in kind of homesteading or like becoming involved in like 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.280 plant matter and like digging in the mulch, but also 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.840 looking kind of cute while you do it. Why not? Now, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.280 That's what I think is so funny when people like, 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.680 you know, I've seen friends who have like gone and split, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.120 you know, a cabin somewhere for a weekend. Uh, And 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.960 then there's always like a kind of sub tweetie energy 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.160 of like, oh you went to a cabin for the weekend. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.280 It's like that's literally the only place you can go 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.680 right now. Like, if you want to go anywhere that's 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.800 not your home, you kind of have to go cottage 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.160 or a little bit. I also just think it's funny 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.199 because it is such a sort of like it's a 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.159 fantasy of no technology in a lot of ways. But 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.440 then it's on TikTok. Yeah, well, the thing's dark academia. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.800 That's there. That's I also was thinking, like the tailor 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.000 swift aesthetic. I was like, is it light academia? Is 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:24.360 that her aesthetic is non dark academia. She had a 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.879 tweed coat in one of those photos, so that that 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.400 kind of edges into dark academia. Terry people were people 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.960 were saying, they were like, oh, this album is so autumnal, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.440 but everybody's trapped at home, so it doesn't really matter 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.960 what season it is. You can be cozy, cozy cottage 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.240 core in the summer, because what are you going to do? 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.879 I think of cottage core is a much more a 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:53.959 summary vibe. Yeah, because cottage core is the like linen 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.640 dresses with the bit it's breathable and and dark academia 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.639 is much more layer friendly cottage cores like Paul and 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.240 in the air and you're wearing a dress and you're 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:09.800 like digging up root or whatever. Yeah. Um, one of 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.120 us is going to get on TikTok one of these 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.639 days and actually figure out this ship for ourselves. I 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.199 would be really curious as to what subculture can we 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:24.200 just create a nightcall TikTok and share it. Somehow, I'm 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:31.720 afraid to commit. We also got another email about our 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:36.560 our COVID reality right now from a listener who writes, Hello, Nightcall. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.680 This email is two episodes too late. I'm just catching 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:41.640 up on the episodes, but I thought I would send 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.760 it anyway. I really appreciate when Emily talked about international 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.000 students in relation to the on campus experience. As someone 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.119 who works at a university and as an international student, 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.040 I've seen the effect COVID Nightina has had on international students. 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.800 When universities kicked out students in dorms, international students and 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.360 other students without a network were placed in precarious situations 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.120 because they have no family to turn to for support. Moreover, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.520 many international students where I live are essential workers, and 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.280 new visa laws and immigration changes made their situation even worse. 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.400 For me personally, I was accepted into my dream graduate 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.560 program at n y U and was super excited to 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.959 move to New York City and to have new exciting experiences. However, 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.000 due to my family's experiences with US immigration and the 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.679 harassment we face, I ultimately had to reject the offer. 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.560 My experience is nothing compared to thousands of students who 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.639 might have to leave the country due to ices online 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.320 learning stipulation. Thank you so much. That letter was from Hussein. Uh, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.119 it's great to hear from somebody who had actual experience 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.600 with this. Yeah. I think it's I mean, what is 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.679 I vaguely keep catching up on what's been going on 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.240 with um, with school, the entire notion of school. UM. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.960 I know that Uh, several universities sued the Trump administration 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.880 for this policy. Uh where ice was you know, going 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:06.480 to potentially deport students who were on a visa. So 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.560 I mean, but I don't know if that goes for 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.680 everybody or just for the people who are at those 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.359 schools that are that are filing lawsuits. UM. It just 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.199 seems so again, this like piecemeal approach to everything right 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:24.240 now is just like so disorienting and so confusing and stressful, 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.080 especially if you are somebody in this situation where you 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.080 don't know if you are able to stay in the 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.320 country but you still have to like finish school. You know. 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.320 There are also so many, so many reversals every time 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.119 a decision like this is made, and I think particularly 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.000 when it comes to foreign students who are going to 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.639 who are making these huge moves. It's not not a 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.760 great position to be in if you know that any 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.960 decision that is made could be easily reversed at any point. 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.960 I mean, you making the commitment to make that kind 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.080 of a move, um, under such precarious circumstances as at 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.639 the impossible task. Yeah, it seems it seems like a 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.119 lot of the stuff is the Trump administration will like 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.840 declare something and then people have to spend a lot 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.200 of time being like, wait, is that even legal? Um? Yea, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.439 and by the time you figure it out, it's just 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.679 it's um. It's a terrible chaotic approach to everything, and 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:23.439 the confusion I think is intentionally uh, definitely so uh man, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.359 thank you so much for writing in Hussein. That's a 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.280 great perspective for us to have. We also have another 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.399 call and by the way, if you would like to 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.840 talk about your experiences as an essential worker or otherwise 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.600 working during the pandemic, please give us a night call 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.520 at one two four oh four six night. You can 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.440 also email us at Night Call Podcast at gmail dot com. 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:44.920 We are more than happy to keep you anonymous. UM. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.800 Just let us know at the top of your letter 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:51.320 or or your experiences as a student, or just any 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.600 stories about COVID times and trying to get stuff done 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.280 under impossible circumstances. We would love to hear from you, 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.240 and we're happy to keep you anonymous. So this comes 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.400 from one of those anonymous writers they write. I work 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.679 in a clinic for a surgeon in Orange County. He 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.640 never stopped seeing patients. I got COVID the first week 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.480 of March from a patient. I was out of work 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:13.960 for six weeks and I'm still having breathing problems four 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.840 months later. I had a second exposure three weeks ago 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.440 with another patient who was positive. I ran a fever 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:21.520 for three days and had to have two tests to 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.960 make sure I was negative before I could return to work. 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.200 We have screening questions that were supposed to ask patients, 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.720 including if patients have traveled and if they have a fever. 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.119 But even if they have traveled or if they have 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.040 a fever, we haven't turned anyone away. I'm afraid I'm 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.000 going to get sick again, and I'm concerned that I 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.159 will bring it home to my family. Thank you. I 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.040 just wanted to share this is so psycho as somebody 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:46.119 who has been in doctor's offices more times than I 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.720 would have liked to be in the last of five 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:53.879 Oh my god, almost like five months now. Uh I. 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:56.560 The first thing I had to do was get a 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.800 tooth pulled, and they're why is that? You know? Over 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.040 the phone when I made the appointment, there was that 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:04.960 checklist like have you been out of the country? Do 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:09.359 you have any of these symptoms? Um? And I, you know, 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:14.200 being this is very early in lockdown. I the day 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.119 of I kind of had a sore throat, but it 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:21.080 was because of my tooth that was that was giving 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.520 me problems, Like that's a that's a symptom of a 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.000 of a kind of irritated wisdom tooth, as you can 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:28.879 have a sore throat sometimes and so that I just 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:30.800 started up that morning. So I went there to the 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.520 office and I like was honest about that. I was like, 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.200 I think it's just the tooth though, and they almost 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.680 didn't let me in, like they were taking it super 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.000 super seriously there at this um at this oral surgeon, 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.560 which I appreciated a lot, they still saw me and 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:48.080 like the sore throat went away as soon as the 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:49.719 tooth was out, So that was totally what it was. 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:54.000 But um, the fact that they're asking questions and then 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:56.280 letting people in any way. It's like, what is what 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:58.960 is the point. It's like people are not thinking about 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.440 what the actual point of any of these safety majors 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:07.439 are now. Um, and that's so upsetting, especially if you 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.480 don't really have an option not to distance from people 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:12.800 when you're a job like this, right, And it's also 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:16.200 like you're taking people at their word, you know. I mean, yeah, 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.959 this is is the lack of testing as well, UM, 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.879 because like Emily said, so many people are having symptoms 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.600 of anxiety or neglected problem, you know, health problems that 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.560 you have to deal with later. Like I had a migraine, um, 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:34.159 a couple of weeks ago, and my because I was 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.720 having a migraine, my heart started racing and I have 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:39.560 like the blood oximeter and then of course you look up, 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:41.960 you know, you're just feeling like you have a migraine, 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.959 You're feeling under the weather. And then I was like, oh, okay, 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:47.600 well this all of this could also be related to COVID. 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:49.800 But then it was really hard to get tested and 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.360 I was very lucky to be able to. But I mean, 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.479 when you interview people about problems that they're facing and 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:58.080 for which they are seeing a doctor. There are, of 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:00.879 course things like a fever that you can measure, but 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.760 then there are also just general how are you feeling questions, 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.119 And if you're seeing a doctor, chances are you're not 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:08.240 feeling great. So you have to be able to know 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.880 what's going on on an individual level before you see 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:13.919 a patient. Otherwise you're putting everyone at risk, and that 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.120 can really only be accomplished with a test. Yeah, I mean, 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.120 I really feel for people that are working in doctor's 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:25.280 offices and hospitals right now, because you need a hospital 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:28.720 to be that safe zone. But yeah, there's so many 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:33.960 factors that we don't have under control because we don't 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:36.640 have testing, and there's so much protocol that we don't 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:40.320 have yet either. Like I you know, I am way 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:43.159 overdue for just a dentist checkup at this point, and 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.280 I've been putting it off because I was like, it's 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.200 not essential, like I had to get my tooth pull 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:49.240 that I haven't had a dentist checkup in a while, 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:52.840 and now it's just like, well, when when can I 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.199 do that? It's like this, it's the same thing as 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:57.560 like a regular checkup or getting a physical or something 0:25:57.640 --> 0:26:01.200 like that. It's like we I think when we everybody 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:02.960 was under this assumption that it was only going to 0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:04.520 be for three months. It's like, okay, well I can 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:06.679 put off a physical for three months, who cares. But 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:08.199 now it's like, okay, if this is going to be 0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:09.920 going on for a year, a year and a half, 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:14.119 like what what is the best practice in that case 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:17.240 just to not take care of yourself? Like and there's no, 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:19.960 there's no there's been no guidance around that from any 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.919 of that at all, especially here where there are things like, 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:25.000 for instance, I was talking with someone um and they 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:28.080 weren't able to get their contact lens prescription because it 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:30.880 was like a month, you know, past its expiration date. 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:34.240 In Canada, my friend said, you can if you're slightly 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:37.119 past your prescription date, and there are circumstances like this, 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.040 they will just send you your contact lenses. But because 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.000 they're classified as something that almost like is ingestible, they 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:47.000 go like inside your body, then they are regulated, so 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:49.240 it's she has to go out now to the eye doctor. 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:51.159 And there's things like that where it's like, you know, 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:54.160 for certain types of medications that require a doctor's visit, 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:57.080 the patient might want to not take the chance on 0:26:57.160 --> 0:26:59.720 exposing their doctor, but then they're not going to get 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:01.479 them at cation that they need. So there are all 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:05.080 of these complicating factors that might make patients go see 0:27:05.080 --> 0:27:07.399 the doctor even if they weren't able to get a test, 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:09.720 even if they didn't feel great. And that's such a 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:13.040 terrifying predicament because there's really no right way to handle it. 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:15.680 And I think we're also seeing now like the three 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:17.960 months thing. I feel like we always kind of thought 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.560 was bullshit. It was just like to buy people enough 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.399 time because they can't think beyond like three months to 0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:25.520 something everyone can handle. If they had said it was 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:27.520 going to be a year or two, people would have 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:31.720 flipped out more. I definitely felt strongly that it was 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:34.600 going to be a year, uh, just from the get 0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:39.920 really yeah, I did not, because I was like, they're 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:42.800 they're trying to be comforting, but like nothing they're saying 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:46.600 has any concrete plan, you know. But I didn't think 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:48.720 that even even as somebody who thought it was going 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:51.840 to be a year, I was still like, five months 0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:54.800 from now, will at least have testing or something, you know, 0:27:55.080 --> 0:27:59.439 we'll have like regulated testing. Um. And the fact that 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:02.840 we are five months into this and it's still so 0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:06.320 ticky tack and doesn't seem like it's going to get better. 0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:08.919 And if you get a test, there's still enough of 0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:11.679 a delay in getting your results that it's it's so 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:15.080 much less useful than the rapid results tests, which I 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:17.160 think are still like a hundred and twenty five dollars 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:19.520 here um that you can get an urgent care and 0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:24.240 are those accurate ones? Like, I think that those are 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.080 more accurate. I've heard if people who were Yeah, the 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:30.000 nose is more is more accurate, The nose swab is 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:34.000 more accurate. The cheek swabs, though there have been instances 0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:38.480 of people um getting positive cheek swab test results and 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:41.640 they never actually swabbed their cheeks. They like got in line, 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:44.040 had an appointment turned around because of the weight was 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.320 too long or whatever, and then they get a caller 0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:49.160 an email that they tested positive and they were like, no, 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:52.120 I didn't. Yeah. The l A swab testing is being 0:28:52.240 --> 0:28:57.640 run through a nonprofit uh, created by Sean Penn. Is 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:01.840 that Curative Care or whatever? Yeah, So again, it just 0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:04.520 seems like the privatized nature of all these things as 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:08.680 part of the problem, um that we don't just have 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:14.680 nationalized healthcare where everybody could get tested. That would be great, 0:29:14.720 --> 0:29:17.800 That would be nice. Well, we're going to take a 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:20.200 break and when we come back, we're going to be 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:23.200 joined by our guest this week, Meredith Whittaker, to talk 0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:31.800 about UH, surveillance, UH, labor rights, artificial intelligence so called UH, 0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:44.080 and so much more. So stay tuned for that welcome 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:47.840 back tonight call. We are joined today by our very 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:52.040 special guest, Meredith Whittaker. Meredith is a research professor and 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:55.040 the co founder of the AI Now Institute at ny U. 0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:59.240 Her work focuses on the social implications of artificial intelligence 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:02.440 and the tech end street responsible for it. Previously, she 0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:04.920 worked at Google for thirteen years, where she founded the 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:08.920 company's Open Research group and helped lead labor organizing efforts, 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:12.440 including the Google walk out and efforts to end AI 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:15.880 contracts with the U S Department of Defense. Her work 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.920 is driven by the belief that worker power, collective action, 0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:23.960 and strong social movements are necessary to ensure meaningful tech accountability. 0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:32.160 Welcome Meredith, Thanks so much for being with us this week. Yeah, 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:37.280 I'm happy to be here. Um. Uh Yeah, So I 0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:41.600 feel like we we constantly are saying among ourselves that 0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:44.360 we wish that like we had a kind of a 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:48.120 an info SEC expert on call at all times. So 0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:50.479 you are going to be our info SEC expert for 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:56.680 the next thirty minutes. UM, So just strap in. UM. 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.640 I think that like maybe a good way to kick 0:30:58.680 --> 0:31:02.160 it off is just talking about kind of the specific 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:10.000 concern recently about UM about surveillance specifically at protests and 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:14.880 among activists. UM, particularly in Portland, there's been concerns that 0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:18.120 I know you've been talking about on your Twitter about 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:22.600 just sort of the kind of murky waters of of 0:31:22.600 --> 0:31:26.920 of capturing face data and other kinds of data from 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:31.160 these events. UM. It's it's like a weird new world 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:35.959 that we're all navigating, and unfortunately there's like uh proto 0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:39.560 fascist slash fascist forces that are taking advantage of that 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:43.520 uh not quite figured out world. So UM, yeah, is 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:46.240 there anything particularly from that that that has been surprising 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:50.320 to you recently? Yeah, I mean let's yeah, let's let's 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:55.480 open up the whole cannon. Or yeah, I don't. I mean, 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:58.880 I think surprise isn't the word, right. I think we 0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:06.600 know that the tools of centralized power social control surveillance exists, 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:10.160 and frankly have existed for some time. I think what 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:13.560 we're beginning to recognize is what they look like in 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:16.760 the hands of you know, I think proto fascist is 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.840 a bit of a diplomatic term for what we're seeing 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.920 with the you know, the the federal troops that you know, 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.840 hs as involvement, um. You know. But but you know, 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.320 I think I don't think I'm surprised. I think this 0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:33.560 is it's it's extremely troubling, right and a lot of 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.200 what you know, my senses with a lot of people 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.280 who are sort of historicizing this moment looking back at like, well, 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:41.520 this is you know, this is how fascism looks when 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:43.600 you know, suddenly there is a you know, there are 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:47.320 kind of a domestic militia that is serving you know, 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:51.479 the the goals of the you know, authoritarian party on 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.560 the streets. Um. You know, what we haven't seen before 0:32:54.800 --> 0:33:00.600 is fascism with the types of surveillance affordance. Is that 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:03.760 these folks have, right with the ability to you know, 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:07.640 buy location data and other intimate data from you know, 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.320 data brokers, with the ties that companies like Talents here 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:14.360 and others have directly to the Trump administration, with the 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:16.400 sort of you know, the way in which we have 0:33:16.440 --> 0:33:20.280 now sort of structured are our social and political lives 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:23.920 around the necessity of having these networked infrastructures that are 0:33:23.960 --> 0:33:27.600 necessarily collecting you know, data about us, data, you know, 0:33:27.640 --> 0:33:31.080 making inferences about us. Um you know, whether or not 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:33.480 we call that surveillance, whether or not we call having 0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:35.960 you know, a private company own all of our Gmail 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:38.960 going back for years and years surveillance. You know, that's 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:42.040 the bedrock on which all of this network technology and 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:45.040 the industry that has been built around it is is resting. 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:47.160 And we're now saying, you know what happens when the 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:50.760 you know, happy primary colored promises of tech you know, 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:55.080 actually aren't kept right. UM. So, so here we are. UM. 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:56.880 But you know, again this isn't that we saw this 0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:59.920 in Ferguson, you know, standing Rock. A number of these 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:02.760 you know dynamics were at play. We felt with the 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:06.120 pandemic powers that were given to Ice by Trump that 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.359 they now sort of you know, this is permitted under 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.720 those powers for these um you know, for for federal 0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:15.200 agents to be deployed in this way, for them to 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:19.600 use you know, drones and other surveillance capabilities to you know, track, 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:25.319 and what we're seeing is sort of you know, harass harm. Yeah, 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:27.800 I mean it's like ironically, as in all the ways 0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:30.120 that the the the uprisings right now are taking place 0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:32.680 in the same way at the same time as the pandemic. 0:34:32.760 --> 0:34:35.680 It's like at the same time that we're the other 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.279 countries have enacted contact tracing and that sort of thing, 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:41.839 and that's something that we're talking about here. It's like 0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:46.239 we also see we're we're immediately living through the downsides 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:50.759 of something like contact tracing um currently, as opposed to 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:55.600 like a hypothetical that could happen sometimes. Yeah, I mean, 0:34:55.600 --> 0:34:59.000 contact tracing is a great example of just like how 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:04.200 wild tech hubris is, right because we are, you know, 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:08.360 the foundation we are in a failed, failing, present progressive 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.239 state right now, right Like, we don't have testing that 0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.080 is clearly deployed. We certainly don't have a social stafety 0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:17.239 net that would enable people to make a sort of 0:35:17.640 --> 0:35:20.160 choice about their protection, right Like, oh, maybe you know 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:22.400 I have received a ping that I was in contact 0:35:22.480 --> 0:35:26.640 with someone who tested positive, which presumes the presence of tests, right, Um, 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:29.359 and now I need to stay home for two weeks, right, 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:32.240 you know, most people don't even have two weeks vacation 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.120 time to take let alone you know the you know, 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:39.040 you know the resources to you know, make that choice 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:42.000 for you know, community and self care. So I think 0:35:42.040 --> 0:35:43.799 what we're looking at, you know, the idea that you 0:35:43.800 --> 0:35:46.200 could just slap contact tracing on that when you don't 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:49.520 have ground truth data around testing, when people aren't in 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:53.279 a position to you know, make a choice for public health, 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:56.160 when we don't have those politics of care right you 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:59.120 know anywhere in our infrastructures. Is you know, that's the 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:02.359 kind of like we'll solve it with tech while ignoring 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:05.160 those sort of bedrock conditions that would be you know 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:08.560 necessitate you know that that are necessary for tech too, 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:11.080 you know, for us even have a conversation of whether 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:14.239 sort of tech based contract trasing contact tracing could work, 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:17.000 and there's a bunch of problems with tech based contract tracing, 0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:20.399 especially Bluetooth BASTE. It like doesn't know when it's going 0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:22.480 through walls so you can get a contact trace that's 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:24.920 like if you're next to somebody in a car, it 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:26.920 will consider you next to them, right. Like, there's all 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:30.120 sorts of like you know, real world lizations to the 0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:32.880 hype that is being sort of you know floated around 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:37.040 these these approaches, and you know, and again you need 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:39.680 you need test data to be using test data to 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:42.080 do contact tracing, and you need you know, frankly, contact 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.240 tracing is best done by like an army of human 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.319 beings who are doing the hard work of of you 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:51.600 know what you know, public you know, doing the work 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:56.000 of public health experts. Yeah, yeah, Meredith. One thing I 0:36:56.080 --> 0:36:59.320 really love about your work you use the word tech 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:03.240 hue breast Um. I think you're really good at calling 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:08.120 out tech hubris, and especially at sort of talking about 0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:11.760 promises that tech companies make that they can't actually deliver 0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:16.280 on and tech that doesn't exist that's being sold. Um. 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.319 You had a good tweet the other day about uh 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:22.200 software that was being sold I think to the Pentagon 0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:27.399 that was supposed to recognize human emotions. And you said, 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:29.879 let me save you a billion dollars and tell you 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:35.400 that this doesn't work. Surprised. Oh, it's so, y'all, it 0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:39.600 is so it. I mean, there's that we've we've had 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.440 twenty years, I think, and and more. I'm not you know, 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:44.400 I'm not a trained historian in this, but I've like 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:46.879 came up in fact, right like we have just sort 0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:52.040 of trusted this narrative that you know, tech company revenue 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:57.360 gains are you know, are synonymous with progress, right, with 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.600 scientific progress, with social progress, with sort of you know, 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:02.720 the betterment of the world. And I think we all 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:06.000 know that's more or less bullshit, but I think it 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:09.160 has combined with this kind of you know, the way 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:12.439 in which tech supremacy has become part of our are 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:16.440 just general narrative, right, and people are afraid to question 0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:18.960 these technologies, right you see, you know, there's there's this 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:23.600 constant kind of derisive commentary on Twitter, like if only 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.719 senators were smart enough to question Zuckerberg, right, But like, 0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:29.759 we are in a context where, for some reason, we 0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:32.320 made it okay for people with a sort of elite 0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:36.440 technical education that had access and expertise a certain information 0:38:36.520 --> 0:38:41.000 most people don't to sort of, you know, assume that 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:45.400 the right to make significant policy decisions, significant social decisions, 0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:48.240 significant decisions on behalf of you know, millions and billions 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:52.640 of others, you know, rested with the you know, with 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:56.120 only um that that only people with this training sort 0:38:56.120 --> 0:38:58.120 of had that right and that no one who you know, 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:01.040 if you didn't have a CS degree from Stanford, you 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:03.359 can't actually be talking about these things. So I think, 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:07.120 you know, under that sort of smoke screen. You know, 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:09.200 so much of this stuff is a scam, right, that 0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.880 emotion recognition stuff like that is being piped into every 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:16.279 market you could imagine, Right, there's job interview software that 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.560 based on your tone of voice, based on your micro expressions, 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:23.759 based on you know, how you you sound, what your 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:26.080 mannerisms are, will determine if you're going to be a 0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:28.520 good worker or not. Right, Like, we're looking at something 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:32.240 there's no scientific consensus around this that you can automate 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:34.400 that type of detection, and you're looking at sort of 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:37.560 the resurgence of principles of physiognomy and race science and 0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:40.959 this idea that someone's worth can be determined by their 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.920 sort of you know, external physical characteristics, which you know 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:50.080 hasn't there been mentioned of that, Like then using that 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:53.280 sort of thing for policing too, or am I misremembering 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:56.000 because I feel like it's it's you know, one of 0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:57.960 the issues where you know, people are like give us 0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:00.480 specific evidence of this. And one of the issues is 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:02.440 that a lot of the technologies that are being used 0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:05.480 are produced by private firms and then they're procured by 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:09.160 governments or private businesses, and that whole process is either 0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:12.360 you know, if it's if we're talking about like policing agencies, 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:15.400 often times it's classified or hidden based on national security. 0:40:15.560 --> 0:40:18.400 If we're talking about private firms, it's hidden behind trade secrecy. 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:20.879 So we know some examples, but I think it's it's 0:40:20.880 --> 0:40:24.279 also important to recognize, like it is that the obscurity 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:27.359 is structural. Right, it's intentional, and there's a lot we 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:29.880 don't know, but we do know that. You know, police 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:33.600 departments are being sold facial recognition systems that claim to 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:36.480 sort of detect aggression in people's faces, and obviously when 0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:39.920 researchers have looked at these, they are like extraordinarily racist, right, 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.920 or looked at similar systems, right, because getting access to 0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:44.560 some of these is also hard because of what I 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.560 just mentioned. But yeah, policing is using it. The military 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:50.400 is like the military just a big old magic that 0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:54.240 the military is certainly using it. Uh, schools are using it. Uh, 0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:57.960 how it's wait, in what contexts are schools using it? 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:01.560 Are our students attempted? Of right? Are they paying attention? 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:05.760 It is a bed racket that is funneling um money 0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:08.759 for help for a sort of security that was kind 0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.799 of pumped into school districts following, you know, because of 0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:16.040 the school shooting problem, and that money is now being 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:18.680 used to buy sort of security cameras to you know 0:41:18.800 --> 0:41:22.600 that that are yeah, and and at police to schools, um, 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:26.240 but a lot of those, you know, like detect suspicious activity. Again, 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:28.360 this is sort of the inference that what your body 0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:30.960 looks like and what it does can somehow translate into 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:35.560 a magical assessment of uh, you know, of criminality. That 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:39.759 is so terrifying. I wanted to ask you also, just 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:44.000 like what especially when you think about how that could 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:45.759 also be applied now that students are going to be 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:48.279 doing remote learning and they're all going to be on 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:51.399 zoom and I mean, it's the idea that that could 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:54.600 kind of evolve in an even more sinister ways it is. 0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:58.759 There's online proctoring software that now sort of you know, 0:41:58.840 --> 0:42:03.200 claims to detective insiveness, but we're talking about yeah, yeah. 0:42:03.680 --> 0:42:05.800 I also wanted to ask if there was a point, 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:08.759 if you, so you've been in the tech world for 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.279 a long time, what was there a kind of evolution 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:13.839 for you At a point did you become kind of 0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:16.560 like more concerned and more aware of these issues and 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:20.040 when you entered the tech world, like how aware were 0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:22.680 you of the kind of like ways that this could 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:27.040 be manipulated in racist or really you know, to like 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:32.919 eliminate you know, the personal privacy of users? Like when 0:42:32.960 --> 0:42:35.600 did did you kind of become aware of that in 0:42:35.640 --> 0:42:39.680 this sense? Mm hmm, I mean I don't have like 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.920 a there wasn't one crisp revelation. But I you know, 0:42:43.960 --> 0:42:46.960 I started at Google in two thousand six, right out 0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:49.880 of undergrad and I took the job at Google because 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:52.000 they offered it to me and I was broke, right, 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:54.239 so like for me, it was very it was very simple, right, 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:55.960 like rich kids went to grad school and that I 0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:58.480 was not one of them, and I needed a job 0:42:58.520 --> 0:42:59.920 because there was a certain amount of money at my 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:02.719 bank account and it needed to be more money if 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:07.200 I so like, um, you know, I I also, I mean, 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:09.320 I don't know, I come from a class of where 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:10.920 like the point of a job was to do the 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:12.919 least amount of work and get the most amount of money. 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:16.000 And there wasn't this sort of identity like your job 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:19.000 was not who you were or your passion necessarily, so 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:21.600 I kind of entered it like that, right and then 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.279 and then I was just you know, and I did 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.560 come from I kind of it's been involved in sort 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:30.719 of radical politics, radical spaces as a teen, and that 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:32.160 was sort of where I was at home. And so 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:34.680 there was a whole wild time of being kind of 0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:36.799 entering Google and being like what is this? Right? Like, 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:39.600 I don't have technical training. I had to figure out 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:43.040 a lot of these things by like asking people, um, 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:44.840 and I think part of that process was like a 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:49.480 demystification journey for me. So what that you just call 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:51.680 it that, but that's actually not like that's just a 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:55.560 confusing word. Okay, I'm like and recognizing that it wasn't magic, 0:43:55.640 --> 0:43:57.800 that a lot of the ground truth was really shaky, 0:43:57.880 --> 0:43:59.480 that a lot of this sort of you know, a 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:01.600 lot of this was sort of heights. But that took 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:06.520 me a while, I think, you know, just being like 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:09.920 asking these questions and sort of being in the like 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.960 arriving at this time where it was just there was 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:15.600 little pockets of kind of academic tech critique, but there 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:19.600 was not the sort of wholesale kind of skepticism that 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:21.719 I think is you know now part of a you know, 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:24.319 a healthy conversation about tech, right, And so just saying 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.240 like why do these guys you know, think they're ethical billionaires? 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:30.040 Like what is ad tech? Right? Like what does it 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:31.759 mean to sort of have this data? What are the 0:44:31.800 --> 0:44:34.560 excuses they use? Um? So that was I mean that 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:36.680 was thirteen years. So like over that time, I was 0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:39.799 like interested in social issues, right, Like that was where 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:42.400 my work gravitated. I worked on privacy, I was on 0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:45.440 that neutrality, I worked on a lot of these other things, 0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:47.640 and I got interested in AI because AI is sort 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:50.399 of like, I don't know, I have a whole feel 0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:52.680 all save for some other time around it kind of 0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:56.120 it's kind of a scam. It's like this big term 0:44:56.400 --> 0:45:00.279 under which like data based technologies, right, technology is that 0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:04.160 make inferences about data? Are you know, kind of marketed 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:06.040 right now? And there's a number of reasons that sort 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:09.640 of emerged in the last ten years around sort of 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:13.799 you know se tech company sort of consolidation of power, 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:17.680 the consolidation of data, the consolidation of powerful infrastructures, whatever. 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:21.960 But you know, the mythology around artificial intelligence that it 0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:24.439 was sort of infallible, that was actually you know, more 0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:27.480 capable than humans, that it was you know, it was 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:30.120 you know, going to solve any number of you know, 0:45:30.360 --> 0:45:32.880 so dual purpose. It could solve any number of problems 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:36.080 from healthcare to schools to you know, policing. Um I 0:45:36.120 --> 0:45:38.480 think was you know, I was really concerned about that 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.920 because I was like dealing with issues of like how 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:45.560 clunky and fallible data was, right, Like how you know, 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.000 even when there was a lot of intention behind trying 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.080 to like get data right, it was always like clergy. 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:54.200 It was always just an artifact of like institutional processes 0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:57.319 and compromises and perspectives. Right. It wasn't there was no 0:45:57.600 --> 0:45:59.960 you know and run to get sort of that cart 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:03.080 hesion window of objectivity, right. But people were building these 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:06.400 systems on you know, crappy data with crappy assumptions and 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.920 selling them a sort of magic into some of the 0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:11.799 most sensitive social domains you could imagine. And it was 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.880 you know, it was consolidating power. It was threading these 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:17.319 you know, it's like a hand five companies have the 0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:20.120 resources to make this kind of technology at scale right now, 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:22.319 So it's sort of threading all of our social and 0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:26.080 economic infrastructures through these five companies whose core function as 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:31.600 always forever and nothing else but to grow revenues increasingly 0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:36.400 infinitely over time, right, Like I think I think that 0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:40.600 when people think about artificial intelligence and machine learning and 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:43.600 and you know, the kind of using machines, are using 0:46:43.920 --> 0:46:47.200 uh any kind of tech to replace a workforce. You know, 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:50.000 we think about like a labor workforce or industrial jobs 0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:52.279 and that kind of thing. But I think that kind 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:56.359 of we're seeing more and more the core philosophy of 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:59.760 that and the actual failings of it, of the failings 0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:03.760 of the um of taking for granted that it's better 0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:06.719 to not have a human do a job, or that 0:47:06.800 --> 0:47:09.720 it's somehow more advantageous, because when you're talking about stuff 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.600 like teaching, policing, all these things that we've have been 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:16.000 talking about, like those are those are cases where they 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:18.399 are like, it's good to have a human there, it's 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:21.560 good to build human skills like those sort of intangible 0:47:21.600 --> 0:47:25.680 skills are are priceless. And that's just not a part 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.799 of the tech philosophy, like the big tech philosophy right now. 0:47:30.440 --> 0:47:35.160 Um so that I've seen. Yeah, it also feels to 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:37.520 me like the people who are in charge of tech 0:47:37.600 --> 0:47:40.200 are part of the reason that this is all being 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:44.359 handled so badly, because you know, in my experience, all 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:46.239 the people who have been like the Canary and the 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:50.560 coal mine, have been people like you and other like 0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:55.560 women and especially women of color working at tech companies 0:47:55.640 --> 0:48:00.759 who noticed that, like the algorithm is racist and that 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:04.800 we shouldn't be selling it as like the subjective thing um. 0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:08.000 But there's a lot of money obviously behind people sort 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:12.279 of being like, nope, it's perfect algorithms. You know, the 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:17.160 math is infallible and this is math. Yeah, they love it, right, 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:21.120 And I think, I mean, I think one thing around 0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:23.360 that as well, as you're having this sort of confluence 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:26.560 of like that type of tech huberis and these sort 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:29.640 of you know, these kind of hollow marketing claims on 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.040 the tech company side, and then you're having you know, 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:35.560 decades of neoliberal austerity on the other side, where the 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:39.600 offer of replacing a hundred humans with a machine that 0:48:39.640 --> 0:48:43.480 you only have the license for so much is really tempting, right, Like, 0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:45.359 and I think there's a sort of you know, there's 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:48.399 a feedback loop there that's extremely dangerous. Like you had 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:52.000 in Michigan, there was a they installed an algorithmic system 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:56.279 that was replacing unemployment adjudication, so it would they used 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:58.000 to have a staff of people saying like, oh, this 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:02.160 you know, unemployment benefits claim. Uh, looks like frauds, right, 0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:04.840 and we're gonna chase that down. They instead passed the 0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:08.600 machine to do that fired all those people. Forty thousand 0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:12.279 people were wrongly accused, right, and then that creates a 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:14.839 record that means you can't get benefits, you can't get 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:17.840 another job, right, like they were bankruptcies. There were suicides 0:49:17.880 --> 0:49:21.560 like people, And that's like one example of this type 0:49:21.719 --> 0:49:24.239 you know, the way this type of logic is operationalized, 0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:26.200 like in Michigan, we need to also name like Rick 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:28.600 Snyder and you know, the person who presided up a 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:30.560 flint like that was the logics that are sort of 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:32.759 driving this. And then of course there's a company on 0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:35.560 the other end, like welling To willing to sell some 0:49:35.680 --> 0:49:39.880 like you know, Jankie bullshit that hasn't been audited because 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:42.319 no one involved in that sale and that propurement and 0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:44.319 those marketings are going to be the people who are 0:49:44.360 --> 0:49:46.480 like harm by it, right, and the people are subject 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:48.879 to it, you know, have no freaking idea that there's 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:51.000 an algorithm on the other end because they were never 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:54.000 part of that process. There was no democratic decision making. 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:58.000 So well, that's also you had testified before Congress Um 0:49:58.040 --> 0:49:59.960 at some point to talk about the need for over 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.720 site and transparency and AI I think that that ties 0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:06.960 into this because there's we we just are never like 0:50:07.200 --> 0:50:10.239 a victim of that kind of thing, is never necessarily 0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:12.880 aware of the fact that this decision is being made 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:16.480 by a boat basically um. And so it becomes I 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:19.719 think harder to figure out how to address those things 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:22.680 if they're if they happen wrongfully, because there's no kind 0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:25.520 of chain to follow up. But I wanted to talk about, 0:50:26.040 --> 0:50:28.799 you know, when when you kind of bring attention to 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:32.279 these things and in your activism, you know, what kind 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:35.560 of challenges are faced by people who come forward about 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.600 these Like I know that you know, after the Google 0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:41.759 walkouts and everything that that was pretty contentious, and you know, 0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:44.399 I feel like generally it seems as though people who 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:47.560 bring attention to these issues in big tech are really 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:50.279 kind of facing an uphill battle. So, I mean, how 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.719 do we kind of advocate for people who are whistleblowing 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:56.960 or who are advocating for changes to be made? Yeah, 0:50:57.000 --> 0:51:00.040 I mean I think like it's no surprise, right of 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:02.640 you know, they were fine with me when it was 0:51:02.680 --> 0:51:05.600 just me as a critic saying things right, and even 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:07.480 if I called them out, even if I drag them like, 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:09.399 you know, I might get some of me like come 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:12.799 on there, but like they actually like that served a purpose, right. 0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:14.680 It made it look like Google was a place that 0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:18.080 accepted all voices and you know, a robust debate even 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.600 if I had no power to actually make a decision 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:24.360 based on my research and my insights. Um. It was 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:27.440 when I started organizing, so you know with my colleagues, 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:31.279 when you actually start building power, which requires solidarity in 0:51:31.600 --> 0:51:35.160 power asymmetric situations. Um. That they were upset, right, and 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:37.480 it was classic. It was there was no you know, 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:40.040 there was no tech wizard reinvolved, right, like they got 0:51:40.040 --> 0:51:42.279 some old quirky union bus name firm and to be 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:45.839 like you hurt the people leading the people might organize, right, 0:51:45.880 --> 0:51:48.439 Like it's you know, it's pretty simple. And I think, 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:52.279 you know, recognizing that fundamentally this is about power. Fundamentally, 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:56.040 there's nothing particularly smart or different about tech, although the 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:59.880 way it's you know, it masks and centralizes power some 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:02.279 and we need to recognize when we're sort of in 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:05.680 these struggles and doing this research, um, but that you know, 0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:08.000 it's going to require solidarity. It's going to require sort 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:10.279 of new forms of solidarity in my view, that are 0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:13.280 kind of across you know, what people have called supply 0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:16.040 chains or you know, seemingly disparate sites. So if we're 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.480 just looking at workers that receive a full time employment 0:52:18.560 --> 0:52:21.239 check from Google, we are not looking at a coalition 0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:23.919 that has the power across all of the domains where 0:52:23.920 --> 0:52:26.920 Google is threaded to actually check them. Right, So we 0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:28.480 need to be thinking about, you know, what does it 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:29.840 mean to be a worker, What does it mean to 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:31.799 be in solidarity as a worker, and what does it 0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:34.280 mean to be in solidarity with the communities, like you said, 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:38.360 who are subject to these technologies that we as workers 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:41.560 may not be subject too because of certain privileges. Right, So, like, 0:52:41.600 --> 0:52:44.279 how do you you know, how do you allow those 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:47.200 movements to actually lead? If you're talking about sort of 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:49.759 worker solidarity actions and I think you know, there are 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:52.720 a million ways to support it's just you know, support 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:58.400 like big where you stand. Yeah, I'm so curious because 0:52:58.440 --> 0:53:00.560 you you said you you started a Google in two 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:04.560 thousand six, right, and you've been working in tech since then, 0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:08.840 And I feel like that kind of that time period, 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:14.120 especially with you leading the walkouts. It's like the the 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:17.920 the attitude and the and the trust that the average 0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:20.279 person has in tech companies and their understanding of what 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:22.560 they are and and the fact that they are about 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:26.120 power and in many cases of fruscating it by like 0:53:26.840 --> 0:53:29.480 giving you free email or whatever the case may be. 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:31.640 It's like now you're in control when really, like you, 0:53:32.440 --> 0:53:37.439 like at Google, by having the slogan be don't be evil. Sure, yeah, yeah, 0:53:37.600 --> 0:53:41.240 like all of that, like kind of having the scales 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:44.360 fall from our eyes over the past decade or something. 0:53:44.680 --> 0:53:46.480 I mean, what's been your experience of that from the 0:53:46.520 --> 0:53:48.960 inside and especially among the people who work there, because like, 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:51.480 that's that's been the crux of it, right, is that 0:53:51.560 --> 0:53:54.080 people are like, oh, wait, this is not like I 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:57.360 don't know if I signed up for this, Like I 0:53:57.360 --> 0:53:59.839 don't know, I don't. I mean, I think I had 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:01.960 a little bit of a head start just because I 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.160 was sort of I was, you know, I don't think 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:06.960 it's an accident that the people who have sort of 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:09.880 lad the research and the critique and sort of the 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:12.880 you know, the insights were drawing on as sort of 0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:17.200 tech critics or whatever you call us, um are women 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.600 of color generally, right, Um, you know there is something 0:54:21.520 --> 0:54:24.560 about you know, coming into those spaces and you know, 0:54:24.760 --> 0:54:28.759 always already not belonging because of how white they are, 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:31.440 because of how you know, these are deeply racist, deeply 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.719 misogynist spaces, like you know, some of like wildly so 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:37.960 in some cases. Um, I think you know, there's sort 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:41.360 of a sedimentary a cruel of experiences that has happened. 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:43.640 Like people talk, there was always a whisper network. There 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:47.200 always is a whisper network, right, Um, you know I'm 0:54:47.200 --> 0:54:50.680 not you know, a lot of things sort of happened 0:54:50.719 --> 0:54:53.439 and changed. Like when I started in two thousand and six, 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:56.240 there were you know, somewhere between three and five thousand 0:54:57.000 --> 0:55:00.799 workers at Google. Right there are over two or thousand now, 0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:04.000 and you know that is made up of half, you know, 0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:06.359 more than half of those are contractors and temps, which 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:08.880 is also the trend of sort of you know, Actually, 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:11.120 work isn't safe for anyone. There is no such thing 0:55:11.160 --> 0:55:13.680 as non precarious work. And you know, if it hasn't 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:15.839 happened to you yet, it's happening to you. Right, there's 0:55:15.840 --> 0:55:19.319 a whole you know, historical changes Trump happened, right, you know, 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:23.480 Facebook cameradge Analytica happened. There's been you know, both a 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:26.520 swell in the power of these companies and at the 0:55:26.520 --> 0:55:29.200 same time, so I'm just like kind of egregious and 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:32.560 embarrassing disasters. Um. So I you know, I don't think 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:35.080 it's any one thing. I think all of those things 0:55:35.120 --> 0:55:37.040 that you know, I can speak at Google. The thing 0:55:37.080 --> 0:55:41.239 that I think more than more than any other one 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:44.680 event sort of shifted the tide was the Naven contract. 0:55:45.120 --> 0:55:47.319 And this was a secretive contract that Google had with 0:55:47.400 --> 0:55:51.200 the Department of Defense to build you know, drone targeting 0:55:51.640 --> 0:55:56.759 and surveillance AI for you know, for the drone program, right. 0:55:56.840 --> 0:55:59.399 But it was facial and object recognition. Is that right? 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:02.520 It was object recognition. Um. It had a sort of 0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:05.400 person category when we look through the code, right, like 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:08.240 it's you know it is and it's trained on images 0:56:08.480 --> 0:56:11.799 from you know, from the Middle East. Like again, we 0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:14.279 don't know. But I think this also gets to like 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:17.040 there's an idea that you know a lot of the 0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:19.520 people who are sort of pushing back against our descent 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:22.440 there against our call to cancel this Maven contracts with 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:25.000 maybe with the name for it. Um. You know, we're 0:56:25.000 --> 0:56:28.160 saying like, you know, well, the best technology will actually 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:31.120 you know, save lives, right, Like, how are you withholding 0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:33.560 this from the people who need it? What you're doing 0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:36.200 is actually sort of you know, misguided, and you're going 0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:38.680 to cost lives because they don't have the intelligence they need. 0:56:38.719 --> 0:56:41.640 And somehow automation will help that, but you know, it 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:44.319 doesn't answer the fundamental question like your your data is 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:46.640 only good as your impel Right. There isn't a magic 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:48.920 you know, amount of data that's going to tell you 0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:51.840 more than what you know. And this data is always 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:56.880 always irreducibly labeled by human beings, right, it only reflects 0:56:56.920 --> 0:56:59.160 those insights and so when you know again, I think 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:01.640 this gets back to an earlier point around the sort 0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:05.319 of like eliminating or displacing jobs. It just I think 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:08.759 it it degrades and hides those jobs. Right, But there's 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:12.200 always an army of precarious workers who are labeling that data, right, 0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:14.200 saying like this is a you know, this is a house, 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:16.600 this is the sheep, this is a person that trains 0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:19.680 the machine learning algorithm um, and it never gets better 0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:22.800 than that. Right, Those are the the core subjectivities that 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:25.120 are embedded in that data. There is no sort of 0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:27.479 magic wand right, it's all people all the way down. 0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:30.320 But it obscures you know, where was there a human choice? 0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:33.040 Where is there accountability? You know, is it Google or 0:57:33.080 --> 0:57:35.240 the d O D who is accountable for another civilian 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:38.760 bound strike because it was informed by this software, etcetera. 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:44.160 Oh my god. So you're saying there's a person inside RoboCop. Yeah, yeah, 0:57:44.200 --> 0:57:46.800 an army of people and they're not paid. Well, that's 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:49.560 the thing. I mean, that's like I worked in at 0:57:49.560 --> 0:57:52.000 a tech publication for a couple of years, so sort 0:57:52.040 --> 0:57:54.640 of like I mean, I was covering entertainment and didn't 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:56.520 no ship about tech, but I was sort of in 0:57:56.640 --> 0:57:58.200 the world. It was around me in a way, and 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:00.720 like that was the thing that always sort of baffled 0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:04.240 me on a very very abstract philosophical level. Again, this 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:06.800 thing of just like why do you deny that there 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:11.240 are humans? Like why deny the presence of humans? And 0:58:11.280 --> 0:58:14.000 why does that equal the future? You know, it's such 0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:18.560 a it's such a strange ground groundwork to start from. 0:58:19.440 --> 0:58:21.280 Like if you're a tech if you're one of these 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:23.800 dudes who runs one of these companies, if you're if 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:27.000 you're a Peter Teal or something like, why I don't know, like, 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:30.000 why is that what your assumption of what progress looks like? 0:58:30.080 --> 0:58:33.160 It's very strange. I don't I don't ask you to 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.360 have any psychological inside on any of these people, but 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:39.480 if you have any, that would be great. Uh, I mean, yeah, 0:58:39.520 --> 0:58:42.640 they're not. There's kind of a cult of the socially awkward, 0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:46.320 which has been used to minimize and justify bad behavior 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:48.560 for a long time. But I also think, you know, 0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:51.120 as a materialist, I'm always like, well, it's a lot easier, 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:53.400 you know, if you can sell something as replacing kinds 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:55.959 of humans, you know, do it right. Like you don't 0:58:56.000 --> 0:59:00.600 have a Genius of AI story or a the Amazing 0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:03.520 Founders story. If you counted all that labor right, you're 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:06.480 not the heroes. If you recognize that this actually takes 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:10.320 a massive infrastructure that is built on irreducible human labor, 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:13.200 that is built on you know, this sort of you know, 0:59:13.280 --> 0:59:18.160 extractive economy of you know, you know, taking or making 0:59:18.320 --> 0:59:20.400 or faking a bunch of data to do all of 0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:22.919 this right, it's not actually genius that's happening. It's sort 0:59:22.920 --> 0:59:26.360 of the you know, uh, you know, regulatory arbitrage and 0:59:26.440 --> 0:59:30.160 resource extraction. Um, it's not as it's not a story 0:59:30.240 --> 0:59:33.240 that's as marketable, right, And um, I think for too 0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:36.760 long we've just kind of guilelessly believed this idea that 0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:38.920 you know, if you had an algorithm and an idea 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:41.800 in a garage, you could you know, you could create 0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:44.920 something new and and and us. When we see these ideas, 0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:47.560 they are progress and they are do represent a sort 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:50.840 of you know, positivist arc towards something better. Right. It 0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:52.720 seems like there's a lot of like, if you can 0:59:52.800 --> 0:59:56.760 do something, you have to um, which reminds me a 0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:58.680 lot of like the D d T thing in the 0:59:58.680 --> 1:00:01.880 twentieth century of just sort of hey, look what we 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:05.360 can make, uh, And people happen to be like, oh, actually, 1:00:05.400 --> 1:00:09.800 just because you can make a poisonous gas, it doesn't 1:00:09.800 --> 1:00:13.360 actually mean it's like an advance of technology or just 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:15.560 you know, but there are reasons not to do things. 1:00:15.640 --> 1:00:18.080 There are moral and ethical reasons not to do things 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:21.120 that can can be done. But what I love about 1:00:21.120 --> 1:00:23.600 your work so much is also you're saying, like these 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:27.480 things don't even work most of the time. No, I 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:31.200 mean they worked to you know, extract money and because 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:33.600 all their power, right, So like in a sense they 1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:36.680 are working because like, ultimately, who's measuring what? You know, 1:00:36.680 --> 1:00:39.840 they're kind of measuring that. But yeah, these don't know, 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:45.280 they're they're jankie, they're fallible, they're incontestable, they're frustrating. So 1:00:45.480 --> 1:00:48.160 you would you you would you include the thing that 1:00:48.200 --> 1:00:51.440 everybody's talking about right now is like facial recognition SoftWhere 1:00:51.840 --> 1:00:54.080 UM at protests and stuff like that. Do you think 1:00:54.080 --> 1:00:57.400 that that's ultimately not um a huge concern or the 1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:01.200 technology just isn't just isn't in there yet, Like yeah, 1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:04.520 I mean, I gotta be careful because yeah, it does, 1:01:04.840 --> 1:01:08.800 it can recognize faces, right, but of course it um 1:01:08.880 --> 1:01:13.960 it reflects the historical patterns of racism and misologyny that 1:01:14.120 --> 1:01:18.520 any technology created in you know, in the context of 1:01:18.920 --> 1:01:21.880 you know, it's time will reflect um and so it is. 1:01:21.920 --> 1:01:25.320 You know, facial recognition software has been shown repeatedly to 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:30.920 produce far more errors for black women, for Native people, 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:34.040 for gender nonconforming people, So it's you know, yeah, it 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.760 is dangerous because it can, you know, live facial recognition 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:41.600 can track who's there, match them with a database of identities, 1:01:41.640 --> 1:01:44.560 which because of driver's license databases and sort of government 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:47.240 I D programs and other programs where you know, like 1:01:47.320 --> 1:01:49.919 Flicker where we've or Facebook where we've uploaded our face 1:01:49.960 --> 1:01:51.520 with our name a number of times, and that can 1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:53.960 be you know that is that is possible and it's 1:01:54.080 --> 1:01:56.480 very dangerous. And I have you know, I have advocated 1:01:56.560 --> 1:02:01.439 sort of banning facial recognition outright, Um, give in those dynamics. Oh, 1:02:01.480 --> 1:02:03.960 I just wanted to see if you had kind of 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:07.240 any guidelines for people. I mean, we're right now conducting 1:02:07.280 --> 1:02:10.320 this podcast. We're zooming so we can all see each other. 1:02:10.680 --> 1:02:12.800 And I know that the way that we use technology 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:15.840 has changed so much, um, even over the course of quarantine. 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.479 It wasn't like we kind of started off quarantine doing 1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:20.320 all the things that we now have to do to 1:02:20.400 --> 1:02:23.600 keep up with work. But for you, who knows about 1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:26.280 these things, how would you advise other people to take 1:02:26.320 --> 1:02:30.640 precautions to protect themselves against being you know, having facial 1:02:30.680 --> 1:02:33.000 recognition software used against them and things like that, Like, 1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:35.920 how do you personally kind of operate to protect yourself 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:38.000 And how do you recommend that people who are either 1:02:38.040 --> 1:02:40.440 going to protests or just doing a lot of like 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:42.960 zooming and zen castering and stuff like that, how do 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:46.640 you recommend that they take precautions. Yeah, I mean there 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:49.200 are a bunch of good security guides for protests, but 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:52.560 like wear a mask, right, mass laws are are off 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:54.760 right now we can wear masks. That's really big. Um, 1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.200 we're big sunglasses, right those those do you know perturb 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:01.640 facial recognition. It's good to do that. Um. But I 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:05.080 think you know, the main message here for me is 1:03:05.120 --> 1:03:08.160 this is not you know, a kind of this is 1:03:08.200 --> 1:03:11.720 not a problem of kind of neoliberal individual responsibility, right, 1:03:12.080 --> 1:03:14.760 Like we are looking at yeah, and we're looking at 1:03:14.840 --> 1:03:17.880 you know, we have we live in we have you know, 1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:20.280 we are in a world where participation in you know, 1:03:20.400 --> 1:03:26.320 social and political and economic life requires are using these technologies, right, 1:03:26.360 --> 1:03:29.360 Like going into a cave and only using tour isn't 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:31.160 going to you know, there are a number of reasons 1:03:31.200 --> 1:03:33.480 that won't work, but it's not you know, it's not 1:03:33.520 --> 1:03:35.160 a choice for most people, and I think we have 1:03:35.200 --> 1:03:38.240 to recognize that. You know, the the things that I 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:41.360 am most excited about are the advocacy and the organizing. 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:44.800 Right the the we we saw last year in and 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:47.960 twenty nineteen sort of a wave of facial recognition moratoria 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:51.240 and bands that were organized locally. Right, people said no, 1:03:51.480 --> 1:03:54.000 you can't, you know, use these technologies. They showed up 1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:56.680 at their civil City Council meetings, you know, they showed 1:03:56.720 --> 1:04:00.720 up at their schools. There's been organizing around of the 1:04:00.840 --> 1:04:03.080 use of these tools in schools by parents. But I 1:04:03.080 --> 1:04:07.040 think it's you know, I really do think that's you know, 1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:09.280 where it starts. I think there are people looking at 1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:11.360 sort of all axes. You know, there's a no Tech 1:04:11.400 --> 1:04:14.560 for ICE campaign, which has been really good at applying 1:04:14.600 --> 1:04:18.000 pressure on the tech companies that are providing disurveillance and 1:04:18.000 --> 1:04:22.120 tracking infrastructures that have fueled the family seperation policy and 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:24.760 are now you know, we now have those same companies 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:28.000 working with the Department of Health and Human Services and 1:04:28.040 --> 1:04:31.120 the CDC to collect COVID data. It's unclear with the 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:34.600 data sharing agreements between you know, CDC and ICE might 1:04:34.640 --> 1:04:37.440 be or HHS and ICE might be. So like, there 1:04:37.440 --> 1:04:39.320 are all of these things that are going to impact 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:41.840 you know, people, and that people are already organizing around. 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.680 So I think, you know, sort of echoing the credo 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:46.880 like look at you know, who's doing what around you 1:04:46.920 --> 1:04:48.720 and see where you can be helpful. But I don't, 1:04:49.240 --> 1:04:51.800 you know, I'm really I reject sort of shaming people 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:56.520 for using technology. I reject that mode. Um, but I 1:04:56.560 --> 1:04:58.760 do think you know, connect it to a material issue 1:04:58.840 --> 1:05:01.480 that matters to you, and you're of people in your community, 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:03.920 and you'll probably find a place where this stuff is 1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:07.600 um doing some harm and where you could do some organizing. Yeah. 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:10.080 I mean, I feel like pointing out that they're humans 1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:13.080 behind all of this stuff, um, and that they need 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:17.000 those humans for these companies to function. Um. Just with 1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:21.080 the Amazon stuff that was happening with warehouse workers uh 1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:26.200 uh those people. Yeah, I think just to to let 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:29.360 to empower the workers to know that they the companies 1:05:29.400 --> 1:05:32.880 need them. The companies can't function without them, Yeah, and 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:36.400 that gives them power. Like great organizing going on with 1:05:36.520 --> 1:05:40.800 gig workers, your Taxi Workers Alliance, UM, there's the Drivers 1:05:40.920 --> 1:05:44.800 United on the West Coast. There's organizing with instacrat workers 1:05:44.800 --> 1:05:48.280 and gig Workers Rising. There's um the Gig Workers Collective. 1:05:48.320 --> 1:05:51.880 There's there's a lot of really interesting organizing. It sort 1:05:51.880 --> 1:05:54.240 of at the forefront that is beginning to sort of 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:57.320 flex and withhold labor um and has seen changes based 1:05:57.360 --> 1:05:59.640 on that, and so many of those tech companies seem 1:05:59.680 --> 1:06:01.720 like they were just made to get around labor laws. 1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:04.240 It's like the joke. It's like the move fast and 1:06:04.280 --> 1:06:07.520 break things, and what you're breaking is labor laws and 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:11.480 regressing to like, you know, old piece work laws that 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:14.440 or old piece work norms that. Like I would I 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.480 would point to the work of a legal scholar being 1:06:17.520 --> 1:06:19.080 a new ball who has looked a lot at this, 1:06:19.120 --> 1:06:21.000 and it's like, actually, this is just a return to 1:06:21.040 --> 1:06:24.280 the past with some like entrepreneurial language left on on top. 1:06:24.720 --> 1:06:28.560 One thing I've also noticed is that there's like a 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:32.320 reluctance in tech companies to admit that they're doing anything wrong. Ever, 1:06:33.080 --> 1:06:35.040 I had a friend who's working for a company that 1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:38.920 took a contract with Ice, and when she called them 1:06:38.920 --> 1:06:41.000 out about it, they were like, well, we don't know 1:06:41.080 --> 1:06:45.760 what they're using that facial recognition technology for. They could 1:06:45.760 --> 1:06:50.760 be using it to reunite families. She quit. She quit, 1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:55.000 but more power to her. Yeah. I mean they'll say ship, 1:06:55.280 --> 1:06:58.080 they'll say some wild ship, right. Like I remember being 1:06:58.120 --> 1:07:01.160 up on stage debating Mayven with some executives at Google 1:07:01.520 --> 1:07:03.600 and they were like, well, tech is a hammer. A 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:05.960 hammer can be used to harm or to build, And 1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:09.040 I was like, that is like from people who sort 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:11.680 of claim the expert knowledge on these systems. It was 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:16.120 just a wildly lazy statement, and I think it's clear 1:07:16.160 --> 1:07:19.240 that like these people actually haven't thought through what they're 1:07:19.240 --> 1:07:21.960 doing right. They have allowed these sort of like extreme 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:25.520 like whippers in mythologies to assure them that they're anything 1:07:25.560 --> 1:07:28.480 they do is doing good. And now they're confronted with 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:31.560 some extraordinarily complex questions that they don't have the training, 1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:33.000 they don't have the background, and they don't have the 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:35.480 stomach to answer honestly. And so you get these like 1:07:36.240 --> 1:07:42.080 strange ass platitudes for people who are working for these 1:07:42.120 --> 1:07:45.680 companies in any capacity. And I'm sure we have people 1:07:45.800 --> 1:07:48.400 and among our listeners who do whether you're a driver 1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:51.920 for Uber or a programmer or whatever, what what's your 1:07:52.000 --> 1:07:54.880 kind of stands generally on Like this thing that Molly 1:07:55.000 --> 1:07:57.640 was talking about where you know, her friend decided not 1:07:57.680 --> 1:08:00.480 to work for this company. Is it the I feel 1:08:00.520 --> 1:08:02.320 like this is a debate all the time where it's like, well, 1:08:02.320 --> 1:08:08.240 should I me a good conscientious person, uh enter this 1:08:08.280 --> 1:08:12.680 community and hopefully be some sort of agent of change 1:08:12.760 --> 1:08:14.760 or good with it it, or should I just stay 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:17.960 out of it altogether? Like what do you what's your 1:08:17.960 --> 1:08:22.560 feeling on that. I mean, I you know, this is complicated, 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:25.720 like people need to eat, people need jobs, like we 1:08:25.760 --> 1:08:28.560 don't you know that is a problem, you know, like why, 1:08:28.920 --> 1:08:31.680 you know, why why do we have to spend so 1:08:31.760 --> 1:08:36.000 much of our finite magical lifetime, uh in the service 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:38.080 of wage work. I think that's a question sort of 1:08:38.479 --> 1:08:40.360 you know that frames this a bit. But I don't 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:43.200 you know what, Like I don't know. I was poor 1:08:43.280 --> 1:08:44.920 growing up, and one of the things who gave me 1:08:45.000 --> 1:08:46.680 was sort of access to sort of a class and 1:08:46.760 --> 1:08:49.200 we'll learn those mannerisms that like I wouldn't have had 1:08:49.360 --> 1:08:51.080 other ways, you know, in college did that to an 1:08:51.080 --> 1:08:55.240 extent um. You know, I started organizing when I realized 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.519 what I was doing as a sort of critic and 1:08:57.680 --> 1:09:02.679 like internal like a researcher isn't actually helping things. But again, 1:09:02.840 --> 1:09:05.240 I think that's you know, if you're going to go 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:08.760 up against power, do it with other people. If you're 1:09:08.760 --> 1:09:11.519 in a position to do that, do that. Recognize that 1:09:11.600 --> 1:09:13.200 there are a lot of people who aren't always in 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:15.160 that position. You know, there are people on visas, there 1:09:15.160 --> 1:09:18.240 are people who are you know, the soul breadwinner, but 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:21.040 that there are ways to sort of at least begin 1:09:21.120 --> 1:09:24.400 to build like the relational bonds of solidarity with the 1:09:24.400 --> 1:09:27.160 people around you, which in itself I think is is 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:30.600 extremely radical. Right when you begin to replace your identity 1:09:30.720 --> 1:09:34.840 in a workplace, you know, when you stop identifying with 1:09:34.880 --> 1:09:37.240 your sort of position within a hierarchy as who you 1:09:37.280 --> 1:09:39.120 are and how you fit in this space, and start 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:42.439 identifying with your relationships with the people around you and 1:09:42.479 --> 1:09:45.200 what you owe them as sort of a practice of solidarity. 1:09:45.840 --> 1:09:48.479 It's like a transformative thing to do. And it is 1:09:48.720 --> 1:09:53.040 like there's a reason that, um, you know, like capital 1:09:53.080 --> 1:09:56.280 has fought back against those forms and that those forms 1:09:56.280 --> 1:09:59.160 haven't changed much over you know, years and years, right, 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:01.360 that like that is of how you build power. So 1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:03.960 I think at least engaging in that and then you know, 1:10:03.960 --> 1:10:07.360 knowing that to be safe, you're gonna need you know, 1:10:07.400 --> 1:10:09.680 you're gonna need critical maths, so figure out where you 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:12.439 start from there. Well, that also, I think by talking 1:10:12.439 --> 1:10:15.400 about how you know, we need to engage with technology 1:10:15.560 --> 1:10:18.439 as both users and in a many of us in 1:10:18.479 --> 1:10:21.800 like a professional capacity. The fact that it's it is 1:10:21.880 --> 1:10:23.600 such a privilege to be able to opt out of 1:10:23.640 --> 1:10:26.120 those things that almost none of us are afforded right now. 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:29.240 So it seems like the best path forward is to, 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:32.519 like you said, to to organize, to recognize the power 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:36.120 of kind of speaking up and like you know, uniting 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:39.240 and like being critical of these institutions is really the 1:10:39.280 --> 1:10:41.840 only option. Like I I can't imagine right now many 1:10:41.840 --> 1:10:44.840 people can afford to quit a job. It's probably the 1:10:44.840 --> 1:10:48.280 worst time in the world to consider that. Uh. And 1:10:48.320 --> 1:10:52.360 also just you know, the connection offered by social media 1:10:52.560 --> 1:10:55.360 when everyone is isolated, it's you know, it's a difficult 1:10:55.520 --> 1:10:58.920 time to consider just like making the choice to opt 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:01.960 out of those things. So that makes sense. Yeah, And frankly, 1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:04.280 you can't opt out, right. You are the surveilled, right, 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:06.960 collecting it from street polls, They're collecting it from sensers, 1:11:06.960 --> 1:11:09.000 They're collecting it from your credit card, They're collecting it 1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:11.240 from the geo data on your phone. You know, you 1:11:11.240 --> 1:11:14.320 cannot carry a phone, but then you can't get work email. Right, 1:11:14.439 --> 1:11:17.800 They're collecting it, you know, from data brokers that you know, 1:11:17.840 --> 1:11:20.880 pull from you your family's social media profile. So there 1:11:20.920 --> 1:11:24.559 isn't again, it's not an individual even if you were 1:11:24.600 --> 1:11:27.599 to be sort of incredibly squeaky clean, even an absence 1:11:27.600 --> 1:11:30.200 of data can be tagged a sort of data, right, 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:33.800 so UM, it's not I think users is actually almost 1:11:33.800 --> 1:11:41.360 a data term in this case because we're UM, well, 1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:44.280 thank you so much for joining us this week, Meredith. 1:11:44.360 --> 1:11:48.840 The suspense that should uh enlightening conversation. UH, and we 1:11:48.920 --> 1:11:52.599 really appreciate all of your insight and experience and and 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:55.840 everything you have to say. It's great. UM. Where can 1:11:55.880 --> 1:12:00.600 people find you online? You can find me on Twitter. UM. 1:12:00.640 --> 1:12:03.479 You can also visit the AI Now Institute website for 1:12:03.560 --> 1:12:06.759 some of the work that UM, you know that brilliant 1:12:06.760 --> 1:12:10.479 team is doing that I'm doing with them. UM. Yeah, 1:12:10.520 --> 1:12:12.559 I think that's that's about it. UM. I would also 1:12:12.640 --> 1:12:16.360 encourage people in tech to check out Tech Workers Coalition UM, 1:12:16.400 --> 1:12:20.280 which is a you know, a loose organization that is 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:24.920 helping workers in tech organized UM and understand their power 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:29.280 and its contact. Awesome, awesome, Well, thank you so much, Meredith, 1:12:29.320 --> 1:12:30.840 and we hope to have you back because this was 1:12:30.920 --> 1:12:34.080 a really really great conversation. So thank you so much. 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:36.920 It was a delight. Have a great boy. Thank you 1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:40.040 bye bye. Well, thank you so much for listening to 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:43.160 another episode of Nightcall. If you enjoyed the show, please 1:12:43.200 --> 1:12:45.280 give us a rating and review, and don't forget to 1:12:45.280 --> 1:12:48.720 subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. You 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:51.160 can also follow us on social media. We are a 1:12:51.240 --> 1:12:55.160 Nightcalled pod on Twitter, Nightcall Podcast on Instagram and Facebook, 1:12:55.360 --> 1:12:57.640 and if you'd like to help support the podcast, you 1:12:57.800 --> 1:13:01.640 can support us at Patreon dot com slash Nightcall. If 1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:03.559 you'd like to give us a nightcall, please give us 1:13:03.560 --> 1:13:07.160 a call at one four oh four six night or 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:10.760 you can email us at Nightcall Podcast at gmail dot com. 1:13:10.760 --> 1:13:37.240 Thanks again for listening. We'll be back next week. M