1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Barbie Versus the Men and 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: the Real World. Barbie, the summer blockbuster about the world's 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: most famous doll, has a lot to say about the 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: intersection of art and commerce. It also has a lot 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: to say about gender identity and a life well lived, 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: of course, but one reason it has raked in more 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: than one billion dollars in global box office sales is 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: because it offers a provocative and funny sendup of mind numbing, 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: soul crushing corporate conformity. Barbie is tootemic and has the 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: power to brainwash, inspire, derail, and draw in the girls 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: who have played with her for decades. The movie explores 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: all of that largely unflinchingly, even if it does pull 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: a few of its punches, and Mattelinc. The toy company 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: that Barbie built, has supported the entire endeavor. It seems 17 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: to have let the film's director, Greta Gerwig, along with 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: her co writer Noah Bombach, play with the brand's meaning 19 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: like a Yo yo Mattel maybe having the last laugh 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: it's raking in handsome piles of cash from all of 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: this at movie theaters, in sales of related merch, and 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: in its newfound role as the purveyor of franchise toys 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: that can be made into Baffo franchise films. Mattel's stock 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: price began climbing about a month before Barbie's July twenty 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: first nationwide release, adding about one billion dollars or so 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: to the company's market value. Tolerance can pay off. All 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: of this becomes very meta, trying to sort out the 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: meaning of corporate identity and possible predation in a film 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: that has multiple real world links and wants to give everybody. Women, men, 30 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Alan and Midge we'll talk about them later, and Mattel 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: a second chance joining me today to unpack this as 32 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: Emma Gray. Emma is the co host of her own 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: podcast that recaps dating reality, Love to See It, and 34 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: she is the author of A Girl's Guide to Joining 35 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC. 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: Hi Emma, Hi, Tim, thank you so much for having me. 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to talk about Barbie. 38 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to learn from you about Barbie. And 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: we've got a lot to discuss, so let's just ask 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: the big thing first, did you like the movie? 41 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: I did like the movie. I loved it. 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: In fact, I think part of it was just that 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: I was so excited to finally have a collective film 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: experience that I was excited to get involved with. 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: And I went and saw. 46 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: The movie on the Thursday that it was coming out 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: at four point thirty pm by Prospect Park, and the 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: theater was filled, and it was filled with a really 49 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: diverse crowd of people, people of all ages. There were children, 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: there were men, there were women. Everyone was wearing pink, 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: and it just really felt like an event. 52 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 3: And then the movie itself kind of blew me away. 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: I think, as you outlined, like, this is a Mattel movie, 54 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: and you understand that there are going to be limitations 55 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: to a movie that is produced by a brand, and 56 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 2: yet they really seemed to give Greta Gerwig a lot 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: of creative license and a long leash, and what she 58 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: ended up producing was much more complex and thought provoking 59 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: and a lot more joyful than I think I had anticipated. 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: And poignant and poignant tear jerking in a couple moments. 61 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: Oh my god. I when I was leaving the theater. 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: This guy right in front of me turned to his 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: friend and was like, that messed me up. 64 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: Like I was sobbing. 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: I did not expect to cry during the Barbie Movie, 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: that is for sure, and I definitely did. 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the triumphs of the film 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: is that it's not easily categorizable, if that's even a word, right, 69 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's sort of a comedy, but it's all 70 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: also has real human drama in it, and it's kind 71 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: of a musical, but it's also lampoons musicals, and as 72 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: you note, Mattel cooperated, but Mattel also gets like repeatedly 73 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: savage throughout. So there's all of these trippy imbalances that 74 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: keep you engaged, I think, and keep you thinking yes. 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: No, absolutely, And I think the movie has a lot 76 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: of layers. Like you can enjoy it just on a pure, 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: frothy performance level, where the visuals are absolutely stunning, there 78 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: are enough good jokes to keep you in. You can 79 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: also enjoy it on the level of asking yourself, what 80 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: is this movie saying about the way that our culture 81 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: approaches gender and masculinity specifically, Like, I think this is 82 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: a feminist movie. But I also think in that is 83 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: a real interest in men and men's experiences and the 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: way that men are also punished under the weight of 85 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: gendered expectations. 86 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: And trapped by it, trapped by it exactly, you know, like. 87 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: All those bros like Brian Gosling and that stupid fur 88 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: cos Oh my god, Yeah he's trapped. 89 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: Which I think a lot of people have noted that 90 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: really echoes one of the like QAnon January sixth guys outfit, 91 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: And so there are all of these connections that I 92 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: think you can make, and I think it's intentionally left 93 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: kind of open ended. 94 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 3: And yeah, Ken's. 95 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: Journey to me was really fascinating because you have a 96 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: guy that's portrayed as a little bit of a dufist, 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: but ultimately is such a repressed person under the weight 98 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: of masculinity that he doesn't even know who he is 99 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: and that's his journey, and. 100 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: Poor Ken just wants to be loved by Barbie. 101 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: I know. 102 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: I actually really enjoyed that they didn't go the route 103 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: of making this fundamentally a romantic story. I enjoyed that 104 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: Barbie and Ken's relationship, which obviously if you played with 105 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: the dolls, you assume these two are in love. These 106 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: two are a package deal, and the journey of both 107 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: Barbie and Ken in this movie is to figure out 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: who they are as individuals, separate from the ideas of 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: their creators and separate from their relationship to each other. 110 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: And you know, she has little time for him throughout 111 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: the movie. As you point out, you know that it 112 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: never evolved into them consummating their relationship. She's bored by 113 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: him before she discovers her own need to escape, and 114 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: then once she escapes, she's disgusted by it, so it 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: never really comes back to anything positive. 116 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a great moment towards the beginning where he 117 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 2: asks to stay over and she just looks at him 118 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: and says, I don't want you here, And there is 119 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: something kind of great about that. And I also think 120 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: that it gives us empathy for Ken, who a lot 121 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: of his anger comes from this feeling of rejection at 122 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: the hands of Barbie and the fact that he doesn't 123 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: know how to find self worth outside of his ability 124 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: to either sort of collect Barbie as a trophy or 125 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: romantic trophy, or once he introduces patriarchy into barbie Land 126 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: a way to control her and dominate her. 127 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: In the same way that the corporation controls her and 128 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: dominates her. Yes, you know, literally tries to put her 129 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: back into a box that scene, you know when Barbie, 130 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: I guess we're introducing every possible spoiler in this we are. Yeah, sorry, 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: but I mean the movie's been out for a MONTHOMO, 132 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: so you know, if you're not on it enough to 133 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: see the movie before you listen to this podcast, you're 134 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: in trouble, you know, in terms of the company dominating Barbie, 135 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: both literally in the real world and women's sense of 136 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: themselves physically and intellectually and socially, and then in myriad 137 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: ways throughout the film, there is all of this sort 138 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: of meta back and forth between the real world and 139 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: the Barbie world, both in the film and then in 140 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: our own realities that still has my head spinning when 141 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: I think about the meaning of all of it. But 142 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: you know, this is a Warner Brothers film that was 143 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: done in collaboration with Mattel. What do you know about 144 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: how much authentic leeway they gave Margot, Robbie and Greta 145 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: Gerwig to produce, direct, and write the film that they 146 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: wanted to do. 147 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: My understanding is that they actually gave them all a 148 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: surprising amount of leeway. I read that at least one 149 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: executive from Mattel did fly in and tried to get 150 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: Greta Gerwig to cut a particularly poignant scene in which Barbie, 151 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: when she is in the real world, is at a 152 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: bus station and looks over on the bench and sees 153 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: this much older woman and she is struck by her, 154 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 2: because of course in barbieland known ages. And she looks 155 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 2: over at this old woman and she says, you're so beautiful, 156 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: and the woman looks at her and laughs and says, 157 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: I know I am. 158 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: And I think Mattel. 159 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: Felt wanted that. 160 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,479 Speaker 2: Yes, they felt it was off brand. They didn't understand 161 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: what it was giving to the film, and Greta Gerwig 162 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: said to them, if you cut that, I don't know 163 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: what this film is about. Like that is so fundamental. 164 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: When you watch the movie, you're like, that's the whole thing, right, 165 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 2: that's Barbie seeing a human being in all of their glory, 166 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: and that's ultimately the journey that she goes on, deciding 167 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: to become not just an idea and not just something 168 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: that someone else plays with, but a person in her 169 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: own right, and part of being a human is aging, 170 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: and so I think that that was really wild to 171 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 2: me that they wanted to cut that, and also impressive 172 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 2: that Greta Gerwig was able to put her foot down 173 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: and say, like, no, that stays in. That's fundamental to 174 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: what this film is about. 175 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: When you were leading into the description of that scene, 176 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to talk about a different 177 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: scene that I had also heard matel wanted cut, which 178 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: is when you know, when Barbie first shows up in 179 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: the real world, she's in her cowboy outfit or cowgirl 180 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: outfit or whatever, and she goes to the high school 181 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: and she first encounters Sasha sitting with her friends and 182 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: wants to be friends with them. And Sasha basically says 183 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: that you're disgusting and reprehensible because you give young young 184 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: girls like me, young women like me, a horrible sense 185 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: of body image and our place in the world, and 186 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: we want nothing to do with you. And you see 187 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: this hurt on Barbie's eyes. She was just trying to 188 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: make friends and she's forcing out to go off and 189 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: think about other news. 190 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,119 Speaker 3: Now this teenager is calling her a fascist. 191 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, Barbie has the great I think 192 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: this is one of the great jokes in the movie, 193 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: Barbie says, I can't be a fascist because I don't 194 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: control the railways are common. 195 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I died. 196 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: I loved that, and that it was one of the 197 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: indications that you're, like, this movie is appropriate for kids, 198 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: but this is a movie for adults who like used 199 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 2: to play with Barbie or who have a strained relationship 200 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: with the brand of Barbie because of what it represented 201 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: and kind of all of those things that Sasha and 202 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: her friends outlined with disdain towards Barbie. I think ultimately, 203 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: I mean, we see the numbers. Mattel must be feeling 204 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: pretty good about the fact that they allowed Greta and 205 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: Noah to poke fun at them and to bring that 206 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: self awareness into the movie. 207 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 3: Like, I just think it would have been. 208 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: Harder to swallow if there wasn't that element of poking 209 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: fun at themselves in it. It feels like less of 210 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: an advertisement, even though that's definitely still in there. It 211 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: kind of allows this ip to be used as a 212 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: trojan horse to talk about other bigger things, and that 213 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: ultimately is good for the brand of Barbie. 214 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, this is so amazing because you know, 215 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: they don't sanitize the image of Mattel or the decades 216 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: long legacy of how Barbie has alternately screwed up young 217 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: people's minds. I say this as a boy who's a 218 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: veteran of being ken with my sisters Barbie Dolls and 219 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: my neighbor's Barbie Dolls. I can name a lot of 220 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: the different Barbies, but also in some ways empowered them, 221 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: right because there were the Barbie Dolls who were professionals 222 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: in the real world. Well, in the Barbie world meant 223 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: to give, you know, layout goals for young women in 224 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: the real world to be a doctor, or to be 225 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: the president, or to be a teacher, to be independent, 226 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: to have your own money, you know, that sort of 227 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: Mary Tyler Moore era of feminism that had one foot 228 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: in the old world and one foot in the new world. Absolutely, 229 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and that's a really hard balance to pull off. I 230 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: think in a narrative in which you want viewers to 231 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: understand that you understand that there are some predatory aspects 232 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: to this brand while simultaneously having empowering aspects that coexist together, 233 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: and you may not realize that till you become an adult. 234 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: I think that's why you have to hire a really 235 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: skilled writer or set of writers to pull something like 236 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: this off. And I think that it's useful for us 237 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: to be able to grapple with cultural products that are 238 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: not perfectly one set of values or another. Like I 239 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: was very struck by the history of Barbie and the 240 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: idea that before Barbie, the majority of dolls were baby 241 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 2: dolls and were meant to teach young girls to do 242 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: domestic labor. And so in that way, Barbie was progressive, 243 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 2: and in lots of other ways, Barbie was very regressive. 244 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: And we have to be able to hold both truths 245 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: at the same time, and I think that that is 246 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: an interesting duality. 247 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: To hold well. And that's you know, the opening scene 248 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: of the entire movie sets that up where you get 249 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: this riff. It's sort of both an homage and a 250 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: criticism of Stanley Kubrick's two thousand and one A Space Ottus. 251 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 1: You know that the Dawn of Man scenes where the 252 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: dudes beat each other over the head with bones, and 253 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: she updates that to these little girls breaking up their 254 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: tea sets with their old dolls and a set of 255 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: the monolith that you get in two thousand and one, 256 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: you get Barbie. Whatever a fifty foot Barbie looming over 257 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: all of them as they bow down to this figure 258 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: that is alternately liberating and imprisoning. Yes, and it's trippy. 259 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: It is, it is, and then the whole movie kind 260 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 2: of like it sets the tone that we're gon we're 261 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: going to do both. It sets that from the first 262 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: few minutes, and then you're in for just a wild 263 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: ride throughout. 264 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I can't. 265 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: Believe this movie has like Space Odyssey homage and then 266 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: also an extended Ryan Gosling musical theater dream sequence. 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: I mean, it's incredible. 268 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: Some of the various stuff I've read about the film 269 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: and about Greta Gerwig's role, some critics have said that 270 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: she's a complete sellout for having collaborated at all with Mattel, 271 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: that if she really wanted to do this right, it 272 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: would have been independent of them and their participation. What 273 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: do you think of that critique. 274 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: I think that that is a nice idea if we 275 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: were living in a perfect world where all access was equal. 276 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: But we are living in a capitalist society, and we 277 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: are living in a culture where we are going to 278 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: be bombarded with advertisements all the time, whether or not 279 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: we choose to buy into those things, And so I 280 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: just think to ask someone to be that pure in 281 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: their art is not realistic if they want that art 282 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: to be widely seen. And I think that there is 283 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: a certain magic in creating this big, splashy event that 284 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: so many people are going to go out in the 285 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: theater and see and think, and then they're thinking about 286 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: it and they're talking about it, and suddenly we have 287 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: a million op eds about like does this film enforce 288 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: the binary too much? What is it saying about masculinity? 289 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: Like these are conversations that I think wouldn't be happening 290 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: as centrally in the public center if you didn't have that. 291 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 3: Barbie brand attached to it. 292 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: And like it goes back to that holding two truths thing, 293 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: where like, yes, it's not a perfect political statement, it 294 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: also could really advance conversations for people who aren't inclined 295 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: to want to dive into these deeper conversations naturally about patriarchy, 296 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: about toxic masculinity, about what women face in our culture still. 297 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: And so I'm just like happy she got on board. 298 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the duality throughout you know, the movies construct embraces. 299 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: The lesson is trying to teach was that we have 300 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: to try to accept one another despite our flaws or 301 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: our lack of self awareness. And she even extends that 302 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: argument to the corporation. Yeah, and you know the absolutely 303 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: nut so C suite populated entirely by men in dark 304 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: suits in dark eyes that Barbie encounters when she first 305 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: arrives at real world Mattel. What do you make of 306 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: those guys in the C suite? And the CEO portrayed 307 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: by Will Ferrell as another trope in the movie. 308 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: I think this was the part of the movie that 309 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: worked maybe the least well for me. Like I do 310 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: think they are trying to thread that needle of acknowledging 311 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 2: that this is a corporation dominated by white men and 312 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: also being like, but they're nice and they care and 313 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: they don't want Ken to take over because they care 314 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 2: about little girls, And it's just it's not that convincing 315 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: to me. Like I was glad there were at least 316 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: a couple of references to like, well, this is going 317 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 2: to make a lot of money and that being a 318 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: clear imperative for all of these people. 319 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: But I think the Will Ferrell character is doofy. 320 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: And also they go to great lengths to make sure 321 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: that you know that he cares about the purity of 322 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 2: Barbie and like making magic for little girls, and that 323 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: felt to me like, oh, the brand wanted to make 324 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: sure we understood that. 325 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: That's right the brand overall, I wanted to make sure 326 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: that was the truth. I want to take a quick break, Emma, 327 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: to hear from one of our sponsors speaking of brands 328 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: and how we pay for our stuff, and then we'll 329 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: come right back to this discussion. I'm trusting that our 330 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: sponsors also don't mind that we're digging them in the 331 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: same way that Mattel didn't mind that Greta Gerwig was 332 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: taking at them. We're back with Emma Gray, who's educating 333 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: me about the ins and outs of the Barbie movie. 334 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: We were just talking about whether the movie is subversive 335 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: or actually very corporate in its treatment of Barbie and 336 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: the Mattel brand. Do you think it dismisses corporate feminism 337 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: or corporate portrayals of feminism, or just gives it sort 338 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: of a new sheen? You know, is the movie sort 339 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: of an agent provocateur in making everyone comfy that things 340 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: are getting better and you can have it all? Or 341 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: is it still in the service of a dialogue that 342 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: might keep women down over time. 343 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: Oh that's such a good question, and I feel like 344 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: the jury is still out on that. I think it's 345 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 2: really like, what are we in a larger sense, going 346 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: to do with what is offered up by Barbie. 347 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: If the lesson is just. 348 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: Go be a girl boss and look like Margot Robbie 349 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: and actually Mattel is great, then like that's not going 350 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: to be so helpful to women or you know, non 351 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: binary people or any gender queer person. But I do 352 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 2: think that if it can engage people who again wouldn't 353 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: have naturally been drawn to these political concepts and these conversations, 354 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: and if it can I think also encourage the power 355 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: that be to allow more stories that are targeted at 356 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 2: women and girls to be told than I think it 357 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: has really great value because I think something that happens 358 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: when we have a big, splashy movie or TV show 359 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: or album that speaks directly to one group who is 360 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: not necessarily the dominant cultural group. We want that thing 361 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: to be perfect and to speak for everyone in that group, 362 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: when the reality. 363 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 3: Is what I hope this does is that it begets. 364 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: More stories by all different kinds of women about women, 365 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: right Like I think that something that's so powerful about 366 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 2: Barbie is that you see all of these groups of 367 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: women and girls bringing their friends and going to it 368 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 2: and creating this collective experience because there's a real hunger 369 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: for stories that speak to us, and it's not going 370 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 2: to work for every woman and every girl. It's not 371 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: going to land for everyone, and so why aren't there 372 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: just more stories to choose from that go into their 373 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: creation with like that goal of engaging this group. 374 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: Here's hoping that that happens, especially because the dudes in 375 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: Hollywood have finally discovered that you can have a tent 376 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: pole summer movie entirely built for women instead of seventeen 377 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: year old boys exactly brak and lots of money in 378 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: the box. 379 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: I mean, my god, Barbie boosted Oppenheimer, not the other 380 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: way around. 381 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: That's right. You know. One of the other recent developments 382 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: that I've found really interesting and fascinating and encouraging was 383 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: the fact that they're screening Barbie in Saudi Arabia. And 384 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: this is sort of part and parcel with what you 385 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: were just discussing and your great observation about how stories 386 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: can be liberating if they're told often enough and broadly enough, 387 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: And there are other Arab states that are not allowing 388 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: Barbie to be screened there. And you had this phenomenon 389 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: of one of the most you know, sexist, structurally sex 390 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: societies on the planet allowing a movie to be screened 391 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: that is expressly anti sexist. And I feel like that's 392 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: a measure of both progress and the power of great art. 393 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think in a lot of these more 394 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: closed communities, you need these trojan horse cultural products in 395 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: order to get. 396 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 3: Those narratives across. 397 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: And I think that there is a value in making 398 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: something accessible and fun and like, yeah, feminism can be 399 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: really fun and joyful. 400 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: And liberating and liberating at the same time. 401 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: For men and women, yes, or LGBTQ people, anybody you 402 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: know that's just know thyself as a liberating notion. 403 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And Alan's I love Alan. 404 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: So I want to get to Alan. But before we 405 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: get to Alan, there's another character I want to talk about, 406 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: because I still have not reached conclusions about the meaning 407 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: of some of these other characters. You know, we talked 408 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: to earlier about Barbie escaping from her box at Mattel headquarters, 409 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: and then she winds up in Ruth Handler's office, and 410 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: Ruth Handler is the founder of Mattel and the inventor 411 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: of Barbie. I was too dense to realize when the 412 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: scene first began unfolding that it was Ruth Handler. My 413 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: wife brought me up to speed because I'm dense, and 414 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: then I became really engaged during the film with how 415 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: Ruth Handler was portrayed. Here's my conflict about Ruth Handler 416 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: in the movie is she developed Barbie out of basically 417 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: a German doll who was a sex worker, literally a 418 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: sex toy, and the history of the doll was she 419 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: used sex work to finance a lavish lifestyle, but she 420 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: still was objectified and she was still a toy for men, 421 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: and Ruth Handler thought that was great, and she'd make 422 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: an American version of Bill Lily that doll, which became Barbie. 423 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: She names Barbie after her own daughter. You know, we 424 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: won't even get into the ins and outs of that, 425 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: And the movie doesn't get into any of that. It 426 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: mentions that Ruth hand Handler got caught for tax evasion 427 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: and that she had a double misseectomy and she eventually 428 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: got run out of Mattel, but it doesn't get into 429 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: any of the origins of the doll, and I feel 430 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: like that's a major shortcoming, that's really something that should 431 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: be grappled with. And then ultimately you get Ruth Handler 432 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: as like a Dumbledoreian god in a scene in which 433 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: she enlightens Barbie. So that's more than I wanted to 434 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: explain about my thoughts about her, because I'm interested in yours. 435 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: But all of that stuff really got me thinking about 436 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: who she is in the movie and whether she's fully 437 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: realized and taken advantage of. 438 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: I agree with everything that you're saying. I felt really 439 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: conflicted about that portrayal. I did appreciate the little digs 440 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 2: about like tax evasion, that's another story, you know, just 441 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: a nod to the fact that this is not some 442 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: perfect mythical woman. And yet yeah, that is ultimately how 443 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: she lands at the end of the movie. She is 444 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: the one to release Barbie into humanity and explain to 445 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: her all of the ins and outs of being human 446 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: and what you have to sacrifice to be a human. 447 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: And it did feel a little incongruous with like this 448 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: woman she I don't think she did feel fully realized. 449 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 2: I don't think she did feel fully human because I 450 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: think that to make her feel fully human would be 451 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 2: to take away that like mystical creator Aura that the 452 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: movie tries to put around her. And yeah, it did 453 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: strike me that the Bill Lily history was not included. 454 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: I did wonder, so let's riff on that. 455 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think they didn't include it? 456 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: I do think that the fact that they are also 457 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: aiming this movie towards kids, that they just were like, 458 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: it's too much to get into the sex all history. 459 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 2: Let's just start after that. You know, we get that 460 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: origin story and it's just like Barbie is there and 461 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: they never touch where she came from. 462 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: Maybe that'll be the sequel, Revenge of Bill Lily. You know, 463 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: it'll be a scary phase. 464 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Barbie the horror movie. 465 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: This is why I don't work in Hollywood. They're not 466 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: hiring me to write this sequel. Clearly, other characters, you know, 467 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: that were very compelling to me, both in terms of 468 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: what they were meant to represent, the relationship with the brand, 469 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: the relationship with people's self understanding. Were all of the 470 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: discarded toys. I found that really really fascinating, you know, 471 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: like Midge, who's a doll. I think one of my 472 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: sisters had. They definitely had PJ and Skipper. But you know, 473 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: Midge was discontinued because she was pregnant. It was controversial 474 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: to have a pregnant bar and they did have like the. 475 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 3: Metis in her belly. It's weird. 476 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that you could actually, like if 477 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: you took her top. 478 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: Up belly like a tiny baby. I think it just 479 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: it was too creepy. 480 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: Well, I actually now get why that might have been 481 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: more controversial. I thought she was merely pregnant. I didn't 482 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: know there was a detachable fetus. That's as weird as 483 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: the woman who had the video screen or the doll 484 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: I should say, who had the video screen in her 485 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: back love whatever. 486 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: That they included all of the weird barbies and kens 487 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: that just did not land, like, yes, the video girl. 488 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: You have the Ken who was Sugar's daddy because his 489 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: cat is named Sugar. 490 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: And which brings me to Alan, who also fascinated me 491 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: as a character because I don't think he's fully realized 492 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: in all of his dimensions. You know, he dukes it 493 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: out with the construction dudes and shows that, you know, 494 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: sort of nebulously non binary guy can beat the heck 495 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: out of Samacho construction workers, and he's the ally. He's 496 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: the only real male ally of the Barbies in barbie Land. 497 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: But he kind of then just hangs out there. Nothing 498 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: more happens with him, and again I felt like the 499 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: film could have done more with him in the universe 500 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: of issues they were trying to address. 501 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 3: I want an Alan movie. 502 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: I think Alan is such a fascinating character and one 503 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: that when I saw the movie the first time I 504 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: was in Tube, didn't fully appreciate. Then I saw it 505 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: again and had a conversation with my friend Liz Plank, 506 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: and we were talking about Alan and the way that 507 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: Alan almost represents men or male presenting people free from 508 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: toxic masculinity and both the freedom of that, like there 509 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: is only one Allan. 510 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: Allan knows who he is. None of the Kens know 511 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 3: who they are. 512 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: None of the Kens have any sort of independent thought 513 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: or real independence. They are trapped under their relationship to 514 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 2: Barbie and also their own masculinity. Alan is in a 515 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: freer position, but also a lonelier one. He says multiple 516 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: times in the movie, I'm Ken's best friend. 517 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 3: But Ken never speaks to Alan in the whole movie, 518 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: only women speak to. 519 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: Ken treats Alan the way that Barbie treats Ken. 520 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 3: Yes. 521 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: And the other weird history thing here that I just 522 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: love is that one of the reasons Alan was discontinued 523 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: was discontinued as a doll in the real world was 524 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: because he could wear a Can's glothes, you know, like 525 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: it became controversial when the consuming public found out the 526 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: Alan doll fit into Ken's clothes and it might signal 527 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: that they were gay. 528 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: Yes, they were concerned that Alan didn't have a female 529 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: love interest, and so they took away Alan and then 530 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: brought him back with one l instead of two in 531 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 2: the nineties, as I think another dolls male partner. 532 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 3: But this is the original Alan. 533 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe there's an Alan prequel that we'll write that together. 534 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: I love that. Let's do it. 535 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 2: I'm such a fan of Allan, and I think Michael 536 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: Sarah did such a good job. 537 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: He was amazing. He was amazing. One other character I 538 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about before we take a break, 539 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: although she might deserve to come back after the break too, 540 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: is Gloria America Ferrara's character. We talked earlier about how 541 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: this comedy and this send up in this work of 542 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: social commentary is also very poignant and telling, And there's 543 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: this great moment where Gloria is trying to buck up 544 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: Barbie and her own daughter Sasha, who she feels she 545 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: has lost a connection to, and she's trying to buck 546 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: them up to figure out how to reclaim Barbie Land 547 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: from all the Ken dudes. And she begins talking about 548 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: all the duality that women have to live with, that 549 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: you should be smart but not too smart, ambitious but 550 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: not aggressive, pretty but not too attractive. That's just tight 551 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: rope of self negating dualities that are certainly part of 552 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: our history and the real world, and then are laid 553 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: out across the landscape in Barbie and I guess Gloria's 554 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: character gets realized to an extent, but again, I think 555 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: she's left a little bit at the door. You don't 556 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: fully get to see her liberated, even though she's laying 557 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: out when I think the central arguments of the whole film. 558 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. 559 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: I think that in so many ways, Gloria provides the 560 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: through line and the heart of this movie, But at 561 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: the same time, she's more of a vehicle than. 562 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 3: A fully realized character. 563 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: They don't really take the time to go into why 564 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: she and her daughter are disconnected or what she ultimately 565 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: wants out of that relationship, Like we don't really understand 566 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: what she craves other than basic connection, and that is 567 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: compelling enough to carry the movie. But I think that 568 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: they could have done more with her. She's more of 569 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: like the deliverer of the thesis than anything. 570 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she you know, she works at Mattel and 571 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: they don't recognize her talents. It's her thoughts about. 572 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 2: Death and and oh my god, I would buy depression 573 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: Barbie who just wants to sit in her sweats and 574 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: watch the BBC version of pred and Prejudice. 575 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: With dark clouds coming out of her head. And you know, 576 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: she's essentially what gives rise to stereotypical Barbie, the Margot 577 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: Robbie characters thoughts about death and darkness. So she's useful 578 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: again as a sort of a trigger for different actions 579 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: in the movie. But one of these characters I wanted 580 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: to see more happened with, especially in a relationship with 581 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: their daughter Sasha. 582 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely agree with that. 583 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: I think it goes back to the fact that the 584 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: real world parts were just a little less compelling than 585 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: the time we spend in Barbieland like both of those 586 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: parts at the beginning. On the end felt so fully 587 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 2: realized to me, like you could tell how much thought 588 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: and care they put into building this world and what 589 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: it was meant to represent and what connection it would 590 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: have to our world. And then the stuff in the middle, 591 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: while important to the plot, it felt a little less 592 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: sharp to me. 593 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: On that note, I want to take another quick break 594 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: to hear from a sponsor, and then we will come 595 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: right back. I'm happy to be back with Emma Gray 596 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: so we can continue this fascinating chat about the Barbie movie. 597 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: Emma stopped me in my tracks if you disagree, obviously, 598 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: But one of the movies big themes is self acceptance. 599 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we've talked about this before Flaws 600 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: and all. You accept yourself and you accept others. So 601 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: it basically has sympathy for every single character or institution 602 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: in the movie, including Ken and his bros. And the 603 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: Mattel dudes, and Mattel is a corporation. There are a 604 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: lot of virtues in forgiveness, but I also, you know, 605 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: do you think it's overly forgiving in its message? 606 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 607 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is a movie that allows 608 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,479 Speaker 2: for anger, but ultimately is more about a softer version 609 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: of reconciliation. This is a movie about empathy, and I think, 610 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: you know, in my own life, I feel like there 611 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: is a time for empathy, and there is also a 612 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: time for just anger. And sometimes it's okay to just 613 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: like rail against something because it's bad. But I think 614 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: that that is not the point of the movie. The 615 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: point of the movie is to find the meaning in humanity, right, 616 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: you know, as we were talking about earlier, for Barbie 617 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: to go from an idea and an object to a person, 618 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: And I think the thing that differentiates humanity is empathy, 619 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: and so that's really at the center in terms of 620 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: its forgiveness, the movie's forgiveness towards Ken. I actually appreciated that, 621 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: because I do think that there is a reading of 622 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 2: the movie that it feels a little pat a little 623 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: sort of like just switch patriarchy for matriarchy and that 624 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: will be better, and is kind of overly invested in 625 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 2: the gender binary and that I don't love. So I 626 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: appreciate the empathy that the film has for Ken and 627 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: the way that all of the Kens are suffering under 628 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 2: the weight of those gendered expectations. I personally feel less 629 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: empathy for Mattel than I do for the Kens, so 630 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: I would be okay if you know it's less forgiving 631 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: towards corporate America. 632 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. That is actually one of the themes 633 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: that not to get derailed here. But the movie Appenheimer, 634 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: I think also wrestles with is do we forgive or 635 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: thank nuclear scientists for ushering in the atomic era, undertaking 636 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: an experiment that they thought might actually torch the entire 637 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: atmosphere before they realized it could be contained, but weren't 638 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: sure when they did it. And I think there are 639 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: some clearer dividing lines around that argument, which, bringing us 640 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: back to the Barbie movie, one of it's I think 641 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: virtues many virtues, is that she's not the doll, and 642 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: the marketing of the doll and the representation of the 643 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: dollald doll's reality in people's lives isn't either or right. 644 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: It does hold these two places in about being alternately 645 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: imprisoning and liberating in some. 646 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 2: Ways, and I think we have to be able to 647 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: acknowledge both, like whether or not there's a movie about her. 648 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 2: Barbie was a dominating force, certainly in my understanding of womanhood. 649 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: You know, in the early nineties and that conversation. Barbie 650 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: was so often a site of critique and celebration at 651 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: the same time, so a movie made about her. 652 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 3: Also has to hold both of those things. 653 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: And I think something that America Ferreira's character articulates really well, 654 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 2: and I've heard Greta articulate this in interviews, is the 655 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: fact that we as humans create toys, create dolls as 656 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: avatars for ourselves, and then we get angry at those 657 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: objects that we've created, and we're sort of using these 658 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 2: things that we made, these inanimate objects, to work out 659 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: our own confusion about the way that we live in 660 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: real life, and that is ultimately what this movie is 661 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 2: grappling with. 662 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: This is a question I keep asking everybody who's seen 663 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: the movie. Is the final scene when Barbie is now 664 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: in the real world. She has self awareness, she knows 665 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: her backstory, if not feeling fully in charge of her identity, 666 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: and she's in a car with Sasha and Gloria who 667 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: are dropping her off at a nondescript and unidentified building. 668 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: And I, as of viewers, assume Barbie's going to her 669 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: first job, and you know, she zips up in the elevator. 670 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: Did you see her approaching the receptionists, and it turns 671 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: out she's there for her first appointment with her gynecologist. 672 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: And it was very funny, Like I laughed at that, 673 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: and I got what it represented that, you know, she's 674 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: no longer entirely made out of plastic obviously because she 675 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: needs to see a gynecologist, but she's also not going 676 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: in to talk about a job or Again this issue 677 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: of empowerment, and I'm not saying that going to see 678 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: your gynecologist isn't empowering, you know, or being fully in 679 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: charge of your sexuality and your own health isn't fully empowering. 680 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: But it was a trippy message to end the movie on. 681 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: It felt like it could have gone in a different 682 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: way at the end, But school me if I'm just 683 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: being overly black and white here. 684 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: I actually loved it. I thought it was really funny. 685 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 2: And also, I think something that we understand about Barbie's 686 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: writ large is that they all do have jobs. That's 687 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 2: the thing that Barbie does well is being a professional woman. 688 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 2: That is kind of the core of her brand. And 689 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 2: the thing that's different and for Barbie coming to the 690 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 2: real world is that she has a human, flesh body 691 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: and she needs to take care of herself. And I 692 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: think another really big theme of the movie is this 693 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: idea of autonomy, and when we're at a moment in 694 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: our country's history where so much bodily autonomy of birthing 695 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 2: people has been taken away and curtailed, there was something 696 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: that felt like a great joke and also like a 697 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: really sharp critique almost of having the final word of 698 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 2: the Barbie movie be gynecologist. 699 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: That's great, You've enlightened me. Got like a dumb ken 700 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: You've enlightened I now feel ken enough or whatever he says. 701 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 3: Enough, you're kanuff enough, Yeah enough, thanks Emma. 702 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: The New Yorker had a pretty interesting article recently about 703 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: the sort of the foundations of the film and how 704 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: it got made, and it noted that I think Mattel 705 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: now has forty five forty five film in development based 706 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: on its toys, and I think that began before Barbie 707 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: came out. And Barbie has raked in so much money 708 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: that I'm sure it's only going to put all of 709 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: that on steroids. You know, the suits at Mattel don't 710 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: call them toys. They call them intellectual property or IP. 711 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,439 Speaker 1: How do you think this will play out in terms 712 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: of both the quality and the lessons of future films 713 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: built around this franchise of toys. You know, certainly Barbie 714 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: gives me confidence that they're trying to do the right thing, 715 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: but forty five is a lot, and commercialism has its 716 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: own mandates in the United States. How do you see 717 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 1: that playing out. 718 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 2: I'm definitely nervous, Like I think that corporations are constantly 719 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: taking only partial lessons, or like the wrong lessons from 720 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: the success of things. I mean, we see if a 721 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: superhero movie does well, they're going to beat that to 722 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 2: death and we're only going to get superhero movies. I'm 723 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 2: nervous we are going to go through an era where 724 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 2: we only get movies inspired by toys. I will say, 725 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 2: at least with toys, it's more open ended. There's not 726 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: a clear narrative. So if they do hire smart, thoughtful, 727 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: talented people to create these films, I think there could 728 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: be some magic in some of them. But I'm not 729 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: anticipating we're going to get a banger every time, and 730 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 2: you can tell that they're already like just putting it 731 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 2: into a machine and trying to crank them out. Whereas 732 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 2: I wish people looked at this movie and said, Oh, look, 733 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: how many women and girls are desperate for stories about them. 734 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 3: Why don't we open that up? 735 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, they need directors and writers of 736 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: the quality of Gretigerwiganoa, Bomback and brave producers like Margot Robbie, 737 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: and that's a hard mix to replicate. 738 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 3: I think, yeah. 739 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: And I think that they had a leg up with 740 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 2: Barbie because Barbie does have this rich, complicated history. Barbie 741 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: has been central to a lot of cultural conversations in 742 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 2: a way that I think a lot of these other 743 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 2: toys haven't been, like, they have not been rich sites 744 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 2: of critique and criticism and conversation. And so I think 745 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: they're going to have to work a lot harder to 746 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: make those movies as interesting and as kind of inherently 747 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: intriguing to audiences as the Barbie Movie was. 748 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: Emma, I always like to ask guests at the end 749 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: of the show, since we sort of see the pod 750 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: is ideally a learning moment for people, what have you 751 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: learned as a viewer of the Barbie movie, as an 752 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: observer of gender and identity and the American landscape? What 753 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,399 Speaker 1: do you know now that you didn't know prior to 754 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: seeing the Barbie movie. 755 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: Well, I now know about Alan's existence, so that was 756 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: really enlightening to me. And also, I think this really 757 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 2: drove home for me that you really can take a 758 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: cultural product that is complicated, that is controversial, that is 759 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 2: not politically perfect, and you can use it to say 760 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: something real and complicated and trigger real and complex discourse. 761 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: And I think that this has really redefined for me 762 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 2: what I look at as selling out and yeah, the 763 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 2: ways that you can take a cultural product that might 764 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 2: seem silly and surface level and turn it into a 765 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 2: story that has real heart and can actually teach us 766 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 2: something about ourselves. 767 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: Am I could have talked for hours more with you 768 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: about all of this, but we have run out of time. 769 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to. 770 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 3: Say, thank you so much. This was so much fun. 771 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: Emma Gray is the co host of a podcast that 772 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: recaps dating reality shows, Love to See It, and as 773 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: the author of A Girl's Guide to Joining the Resistance. 774 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: She's also a columnist with MSNBC, and you can find 775 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: her on Twitter at Emma Lady Rose. Here at crash Course, 776 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, rising, 777 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's crash course, I learned that 778 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: a visit to the gynecologist's office can be far more 779 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: empowering than I understood it to be. What did you learn? 780 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 781 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim 782 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also 783 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now, and 784 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: please leave us a review. It helps more people find 785 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: the show. This episode was produced and inspired by the 786 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: indispensable Anna Masarakis, Moses On Dom and Me. Our supervising 787 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing help from 788 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nizza, and Christine 789 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: Vanden Bilart. Blake Maples does our sound engineering, and our 790 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: original theme song was composed by Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. 791 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another Crash Course.