1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Last time, 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: we talked about Operation paper Clip, also known as Project 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: paper Clip, which was the effort to bring German scientists, engineers, 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: and other specialists to the United States after World War Two. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: And this built on an earlier program that was called 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: Operation Overcast and that had given the same types of 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: specialists short term contracts to either work in Germany or 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: to work in the United States under military supervision. But 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: under Operation paper Clip, most of those specialists that were 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: brought to the US actually got the opportunity to become 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: US citizens. About one thousand, six hundred total specialists entered 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: the US through this program, and more than nine of 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: the ones who arrived between and nineteen fifty two went 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: on to become US citizens. For the most part, they 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: were recruiting relatively young folks. They were mostly under the 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: age of forty when they left Germany, and although most 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: of them started out working for a branch of the military, 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: about ten percent were initially hired at the Department of Commerce. 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: So as we talked about last time, but for a 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: super quick week recap in case folks have skipped that episode. 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: When this program was established, it was taken as a 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: given that most of these people had at least some 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: involvement with the Nazi Party, and the words of a 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency report quote, such membership was due 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: to exigencies which influenced the lives of every citizen of 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: Germany at that time, but especially in the early years 29 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: of the program. There were also a whole lot of 30 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: assurances that the people who were being targeted for this 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: were the quote good Germans, and that they would all 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: be pre screened to confirm that they were not ardent Nazis. 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: So it's possible that many, or maybe even most of 34 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: the people who came to the US through the program 35 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: really did meet these criteria, but others definitely did not. 36 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: And this was not just a matter of Nazis and 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: war criminals managing to evade detection. The people and agencies 38 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: who were involved with running this program intentionally obscured the 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: most damning details from candidates backgrounds, especially if their knowledge 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: and expertise seemed particularly valuable. So my intent had been 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: to talk about this program and then talk about some 42 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: of the more well known people who were part of it. 43 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: It turned out to that just talking about the program 44 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: was a whole episode by itself. So today we are 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: going to talk about a few of the most famous 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: and infamous paper clippers, some of whom were connected to 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: some truly horrific war crimes. So probably the most famous 48 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: of all of the Operation paper Clips specialists was Vernavon bron. 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: His thesis for his p h d. In physics had 50 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: involved rocket thrust engines, which came out of work that 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: he did at Kumersdorff Army proving grounds under another future 52 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: paper clipper officer, Walter R. Dornburger. This work had been 53 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: funded by the German Army. Although Van Brown's rockets had 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: potential as a weapon, his real interest was space, and 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways he used the military promise 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: of his work as a means to an end. At 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: one point he was quoted as saying, quote, we felt 58 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: no moral scruples about the possible future use of our 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: brain child. We were interested solely in exploring space. It 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: was simply a question with us of how the golden 61 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: cow could be milked most successfully. By seven, the German 62 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: Army had outgrown the Kumer's store facility and needed a 63 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: more remote location to conduct rocket tests, so the team 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: moved to Pinomunda on the coast of the Baltic Sea. 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: Von Braun became the technical director at Penamunda at the 66 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: age of just twenty five five. That same year, he 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: also accepted an invitation to join the Nazi Party. Later, 68 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: he also joined the shot Staffe or s S, where 69 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: he ultimately became a stern Bunfeur or Major. Von Brown 70 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: and the team at Penamunda developed the weapon that would 71 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: become known as the V two translated from German as 72 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 1: the Vengeance Weapon to which was the first long range 73 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: ballistic missile in The Allies bombed this facility, so all 74 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: the weapons development and production operation there were moved underground 75 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: using an old mind house, a facility that became known 76 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: as Mittelberg. People who were being imprisoned at the middlebow 77 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: Dora concentration camp complex were forced to work in truly 78 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: horrifying conditions, including digging out the tunnels by hand, with 79 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: nowhere to sleep and no hygiene facilities. Most of the 80 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: people being held at middlebau Dora were political prisoners from 81 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: multiple countries as actually the Soviet Union, Poland and France, 82 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: Jewish and Romany prisoners began to be deported to the 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: camp after the spring and fall of nineteen forty four. 84 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: The use of enslaved labor at Middle Ark continued after 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: the facility was finished, with the prisoners building the weapons 86 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: that were being produced there. According to Brian E. Krim, 87 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: author of our Germans project paper Clip in the National 88 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: Security State, more people died building V two rockets than 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: were actually killed through their use as a weapon. Between 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: August of nineteen forty three and April of nineteen forty five, 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: at least sixty thousand people were forced to work on 92 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: these weapons, and at least twenty thousand of them died 93 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: of things like starvation, illness, executions, suicides, and just being 94 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: worked to death. Officials at the facility also carried out 95 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: at least two mass hangings. One in particular, was carried 96 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: out in a very gruesome way, with the other prisoners 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: forced to witness it. Some of the rockets had exploded 98 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: on the launchpad, raising suspicions that someone was sabotaging them, 99 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: and that mass hanging was meant to deter future sabotage. 100 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: Although many of the staff that had worked at Panomunda 101 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: were transferred to Middle Kan worked on site there. Werner 102 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: von Brown actually worked elsewhere, but he did tour this 103 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: facility at least once, and he knew about the terrible 104 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: conditions and the use of enslaved labor there. At one point, 105 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: he testified at the trial of three SS members who 106 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: had worked at the Middle Baldra concentration camp complex, and 107 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: he acknowledged the appalling conditions and the use of enslaved 108 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: labor in that testimony. In ur the Gestapo arrested von 109 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: Brown and held him for about two weeks. Sources differ 110 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: about exactly what prompted this arrest. In some accounts, he 111 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: was being really disparaging about Germany's chances to win the war, 112 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: and he was only released after Dornburger convinced the Gestapo 113 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: that he was critical to missile production. This arrest sometimes 114 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: comes up as evidence that von Brown wasn't a quote 115 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: real Nazi and had only been involved in the Nazi 116 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: Party in the s s out of self preservation or 117 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: even opportunistic motives, or because he had perhaps been coerced. 118 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: In the spring of ninety five, as Germany was rapidly 119 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: losing ground in the war, the Soviet Red Army was 120 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: advancing towards Von Brown's location. He and Dornburger both believed 121 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: that the United States would see them as assets, and 122 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: that surrendering to the Americans would be really preferable to 123 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: being captured by the Soviets, so they and many of 124 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: their colleagues fled and went into hiding. Even though Hitler 125 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: had ordered the destruction of anything that could be useful 126 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: to the Allies, Von Brown hid his research work, and 127 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: he later went back and retrieved it. On May second, 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:57,119 Speaker 1: ninety five, Von Brown, Dornburger, and one d twenty six 129 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: principal engineers from Middlewek surrendered to an American gi They 130 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: had sent von Braun's younger brother, Magnus to make contact 131 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: with the Americans, both because he was the most familiar 132 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: with the English language and because he knew how critical 133 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: it was to keep the details of what was happening 134 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: at Middlewark secret. Joseph Stalin was not pleased with this 135 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: at all. He reportedly said, quote, this is absolutely intolerable. 136 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: We defeated the Nazi armies, we occupied Berlin and Pinomunda, 137 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: but the Americans got the rocket engineers. What could be 138 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: more revolting and more excusable? How and why was this 139 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: allowed to happen? Once von Braun got to the US, 140 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: he worked at White Sands Proving Ground in New Mexico, 141 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: where he helped American forces learn about and learned to 142 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: use the V two rockets that he had developed. In 143 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: ninety seven, when he was thirty five, he returned to 144 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: Germany to marry Maria Louise von quiz Drop, who was 145 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: his eighteen year old second cousin. After his return, he 146 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: went on to become director of the WES Army Ballistic 147 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: Missile Agency in Huntsville, Alabama, where he helped develop the 148 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: Redstone rocket, which was based on the V two. The 149 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: Redstone was a ballistic missile that could carry a nuclear payload. 150 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: Von Brown started formally proposing plans for space exploration around 151 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, but the Army really wanted him to 152 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: keep focusing on weapons development. He eventually got his wish, though, 153 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: after NASA was established. He became director of the George C. 154 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. When Allen Shepard Jr. 155 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: Became the first American in space in nineteen sixty one. 156 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: The launch vehicle was a modified Redstone rocket, which Von 157 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: Brown had helped to develop. He also led the team 158 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: that developed the Saturn five rocket for the Apollo project. 159 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: In addition to being such a major part of the 160 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: space program, John Brown became a public face for space exploration. 161 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty five, he appeared on the Magical World 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: of Disney episodes Man in Space, Man and the Move, 163 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: and Mars and Beyond. He appeared in multiple other documentaries 164 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and was also a 165 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: technical advisor for Disney. He wrote multiple books, and he 166 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: was on the cover of Time magazine in nineteen fifty eight. 167 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that there are still some question 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: marks about von Brown's motivations and decisions before and during 169 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: World War Two is that he died in nineteen seventy seven. 170 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: At that point, most of the documents related to Operation 171 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: paper Clip were still classified. That was also before the 172 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Office of Special Investigations opened its investigation into Von Brown's 173 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: colleague Arthur Rudolph, which we mentioned in the previous episode. 174 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: He'll come up again later. The os I actually hadn't 175 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: even been established yet when Von Brown died. While there 176 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: had definitely been vocal critics of Project paper Clip for 177 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: most of its existence, in nineteen seventy seven, there was 178 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: still a general belief that ardent Nazis and war criminals 179 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: had been kept out of the program, and Von Brown 180 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: himself had critics as well. As one example, Tom Layer's 181 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: satirical song Verne von Brown included such lyrics as once 182 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? 183 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: That's not my department, says Verne von Brown. But in general, 184 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: after his death, von Brown was widely eulogized. President Jimmy 185 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: Carter called him a man of bold vision and said, 186 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: quote to millions of Americans, Verne von Brown's name was 187 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: inextricably linked to our exploration of space into the creative 188 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: application of technology. Not just the people of our nation, 189 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: but all the people of the world have profited from 190 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: his work. We will continue to profit from his example today. 191 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: Historians and biographers have argued that von Brown was everything 192 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: from an opportunist who joined the Nazis out of sheer 193 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: necessity to an ardent war criminal who never faced justice. 194 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: What's clearest is that he was definitely a member of 195 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party and of the s s that he 196 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: knew about the use of slave labor and the terrible 197 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: conditions at Middleburg, and that consequently he was at just 198 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: a minimum complicit in all of that. He was also 199 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: present for at least one meeting in which middle Works 200 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: General Director George Rickey planned out the acquisition of French 201 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: prisoners of war to use this forced labor. He also 202 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: developed a weapon that Germany deployed against Allies of the 203 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: United States, killing at least five thousand people. But then 204 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: he became a US citizen in nineteen fifty five. We 205 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: just mentioned Arthur Rudolph, and since we only covered him 206 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: briefly in the earlier episode, he is where we are 207 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: going to pick up. But first we are going to 208 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: pause for a little sponsor break. Arthur Rudolph was born 209 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: in Germany on November nine, six, and he and Werner 210 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: von Brown later became colleagues that Peanomunda. After the Allies 211 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: bombed Peanomunda, Rudolph became the operations director and the deputy 212 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: production manager at the underground Middlework facility. In the prior 213 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: episode on Operation paper Clip, we talked about the criteria 214 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: for determining who was a so called ardent Nazi because 215 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: ardent Nazis were supposed to be kept out of the program, 216 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: and ardent Nazi was generally defined as someone who had 217 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: joined the Nazi Party before Hitler had declared himself fur, 218 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: who was a leader in the party or in one 219 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: of its affiliated organizations like the s S or the Essay, 220 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: who had been convicted in a post war d notification court, 221 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: or who had been accused or convicted of war crimes. 222 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: So Rudolph joined the Nazi Party also known as the 223 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: National Socialist German Workers Party and then abbreviated in German 224 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: as n s d A p in one. That was 225 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: six years before Werner von Brown joined and three years 226 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: before Hitler declared himself purer in the early nineteen thirties. 227 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: He had also been in the Essay Reserve and in 228 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: other Nazi connected organizations. When Rudolph was first screened for 229 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: potential inclusion in Operation paper Clip, his interrogator made this 230 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:20,239 Speaker 1: notation quote Nazi. That's in all caps dangerous type security 231 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: threat exclamation points suggest internment. But in spite of that 232 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: rather vehement initial assessment, when the Office of Military Government, 233 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: United States filed its report on Rudolph, it concluded that 234 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: he was not an ardent Nazi. When Rudolph was interrogated 235 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: as part of this process, he gave his reasons for 236 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: joining the Nazi Party this way quote. Until nineteen thirty, 237 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: I sympathized with the Social Democratic Party and voted for it, 238 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: and was a member of a Social Democratic Union. After 239 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, the economical situation became so serious that it 240 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: appeared to me to be headed for a catastrophe. I 241 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: really became unemployed in nine two. The great amount of 242 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: unemployment caused the expansion of the National Socialist and Communistic parties. 243 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: Frightened that the latter would become the government, I joined 244 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: the n s d AP legally regulated society to help. 245 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: I believed in the preservation of the Western culture. The 246 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: U S Army okayed a slightly edited version of this 247 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: statement to release to the public, which ended quote. During 248 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: the last few years, political developments became more and more serious, 249 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: but I could not foresee this result when I entered 250 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: the party. Rudolph was one of the first German specialists 251 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: to enter the US under Operation paper Clip. He arrived 252 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: in ninety and his wife and his daughter followed him. Later, 253 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: like Verner von Brown. He started out working for the 254 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: Ordinance Department of the Research and Development Division under the 255 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: Department of the Army. At various points the FBI investigated 256 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: him as part of his applications for security clearance and 257 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: his application to work at NASA, and the reports from 258 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: these investigations, he's generally described as an excellent production engineer, 259 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: personally liked by his colleagues, conscientious, honest, trustworthy, and not 260 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: a potential threat to national security. However, during an investigation 261 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three, someone reported that he had been 262 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: a loyal member of the n s d a P 263 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: and was quote the type of person who would not 264 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: stop at anything if it might further his ambitions. He 265 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: had a reputation of being a person who, in his 266 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: enthusiasm for the Nazi regime could be dangerous to a 267 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: fellow employee who did not guard his language. That person 268 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: that gave that statement, whose name is redacted from the 269 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: FBI file that's available on the web, later walk that 270 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: statement back and said that they didn't mean to imply 271 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: that Rudolph was an ardent Nazi, but that he was 272 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: ambitious and would do whatever it took to achieve his goals. 273 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: So Rudolph became a US citizen on November eleventh, nineteen 274 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: fifty four. His work at NASA included being one of 275 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: the primary architects of the Saturn five rocket. He retired 276 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: from NASA in nineteen sixty nine, and from there he 277 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: became a consultant. He had received NASA's Distinguished Service Award, 278 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: which is the agency's highest honor, as well as other awards. 279 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: As we discussed in the previous episode, the Office of 280 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: Special Investigations started an investigation into Rudolph after Eli Rosenbaum 281 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: found references to him in a couple of books he 282 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: picked up at a bookstore in nineteen eighty. This investigation 283 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: found that officials in both the US and West Germany 284 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: had described Rudolph as a war criminal. Rudolph was also 285 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: questioned in nineteen forty seven as officials were preparing to 286 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: try nineteen people who were suspected of war crimes at 287 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: the Dora Nordhausen complex. During that questioning, Rudolph said he 288 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: had attended the public mass hanging that we described earlier. 289 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: As Upper Rations director at Middle Werk. He had also 290 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: personally received reports about how many prisoners were available to work, 291 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: how many had recently arrived, and how many had died 292 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: or were too ill to work. His office was also 293 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: right next to where the public hanging took place. Rudolph 294 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: maintained his innocence in all of this, but at the 295 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: same time, according to transcripts of os I interviews, he 296 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: confirmed that he knew that prisoners were dying at the facility. 297 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: There was also a clear paper trail connecting him to 298 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: the use of enslaved labor and prisoner abuses at middle Work. 299 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: He ultimately agreed to renounce his US citizenship and returned 300 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: to Germany rather than face a trial for all of this. 301 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: At the time he was seventy seven. The West German 302 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: government wasn't really pleased about this, since US officials took 303 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: this step without informing them ahead of time. West German 304 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: authorities started their own investigation, but by that point the 305 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: only thing that was still within the statue of limitations 306 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: was murder, and there wasn't enough evidence to try Rudolph 307 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: on that specific charge. Rudolph spent most of the rest 308 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: of his life trying to clear his name and to 309 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: return to North America, even though he had agreed to 310 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: leave after US officials denied his request to have his 311 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: citizenship restored. He tried to enter Canada, but was denied 312 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: there as well. During his hearing with Canadian authorities, Canadian 313 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: lawyers produced a memo that he had written describing the 314 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: use of slave labor at another facility in an admiring 315 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: way and requesting such a setup for his own project. Like. 316 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: Canadian court ruled that he had quote called for, made 317 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: use of, and directed the enslaved laborers at middle Work. 318 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: Rudolph never returned to North America, and he died in 319 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: Some of the documentation and statements related to Arthur Rudolph's 320 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: work in Nazi Germany came to light as part of 321 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: an investigation into one of his and Von Brown's colleagues, 322 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: George rick Hi, Director General at middle Work. Rick Hi's 323 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: background was a lot like Rudolph's. He had joined the 324 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: Nazi Party in one and went to work for the 325 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. Rickie had become an 326 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: expert in underground construction. He helped design the underground be 327 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: two factory at middle Work and Hitler's underground Bunker, as 328 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: well as other facilities. To be very clear, though, that 329 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: underground Middlework facility had virtually no ventilation and no plumbing. 330 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: People used oil barrels as toilets, and for most of 331 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: the facility's operation, the prisoners were sleeping on the ground. 332 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: So we're not saying that this design was good or humane, 333 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: but underground construction like this had become his specialty. He 334 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: specialized in being horrible um. While Rudolph had been aware 335 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: of how much forced labor was available for use at 336 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: the facility and had received reports on how many people 337 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: had died, rick Hi was the person who directly oversaw 338 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: that labor. He coordinated with the s S to essentially 339 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: rent people from camps at middle work. The rate the 340 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: SS charged was two to three Reichs Marks per person 341 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: per day. But as was the case with von Brown 342 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: and Rudolph, Rick Eye's work on the V two program 343 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: made him an attractive candidate for Operation paper Clip, even 344 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: though by his party membership status alone, he fit the 345 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: definition of an ardent Nazi. Like like Rudolph, he had 346 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: joined the party way before Hitler had come to power. 347 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: He arrived in the US in nive though him started 348 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: working for the U S Strategic Bombing Survey and the 349 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: U S Army Air Forces. However, In the summer of 350 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, rick High and paper clipper Albert Patton 351 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: started a black market operation at right Field, where about 352 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: one hundred forty of the two hundred plus paper clippers 353 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: in the US were then working. Aircraft engineer Herman Nelson 354 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 1: seems to have gotten into a personal dispute with them. 355 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: One night, when rick Hi and Patton were playing a 356 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: late night poker game in their housing facility, which was 357 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: known as Hilltop, Nelson got frustrated with their noisiness and 358 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: told them to keep it down. Patten and rick Hi refused, 359 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: and rick Hi made an offensive joke that alluded to 360 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: Nazi atrocities against Jewish people. In response, Nelson filed a 361 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: complaint with Colonel Donald L. Putt, saying that Patton was 362 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: an ardent Nazi and an Essay member, and that rick 363 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: I had orchestrated the mass hanging at middle Work that 364 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: was meant to deter sabotage. But doesn't seem to have 365 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: taken any action on this. But Nelson also vented his 366 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: frustrations in a letter to a friend in New York, 367 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: and that caught the eye of the sensors who were 368 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: reading the paper clippers mail. This sparked an investigation during 369 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: which it became clear that many paper clippers were willing 370 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: to cover up one another's involvement in Nazi activities and 371 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: war crimes. And around the same time, investigators in Germany 372 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: found rick Hi's name on an employee contact list at Middlevierk. 373 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: An investigator in Germany also spotted Rickey's name in an 374 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: article about his application for US citizenship. So all of 375 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: this came together, and rick Eye was indicted and returned 376 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: to Germany to stand trial at the US led war 377 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: crimes trials that were held at the site of the 378 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: Dachau concentration camp. These were separate from the international trials 379 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: that were held at Nuremberg. When rick Eye was indicted, 380 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: he had just signed a new five year contract to 381 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: work with the army. Rickhi became one of nineteen defendants 382 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: in the Dora Nordhausen trial that was held at Dachau. 383 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: Of those nineteen, rick Hi was the only one who 384 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: had worked at the Middle Vark facility rather than at 385 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: the concentration camps themselves. But the evidence that was presented 386 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: at his trial was contradictory. Although some witnesses connected him 387 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: to war crimes, at the facility. There were other researchers, 388 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: including Verna von Brown, who submitted affidavits in his defense. 389 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: There wasn't clear written documentation to connect Ricki to war 390 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: crimes carried out at the facility. Rick Hi was one 391 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: of four people who were acquitted, and the Army then 392 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: classified the records from the trial. We will talk about 393 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: one more paper Clipper after another quick sponsor break. So far, 394 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: everyone we've talked about in this episode was connected to 395 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: the Middle k weapons factory. They had kind of interconnected 396 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: careers with one another in Germany, and while there were 397 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: a lot of rocket scientists and engineers from that facility 398 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: who became part of Operation paper Clip, there were also 399 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: specialists from lots and lots of other fields, including medicine, chemistry, 400 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: chemical and biological warfare, aircraft design, architecture, and electronics. So 401 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: we're going to end this episode with one of those. HUBERTA. 402 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: Strugghold has been nicknamed the father of space medicine. He 403 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: actually coined the term space medicine and astrobiology after World 404 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: War Two. Strugghold started out working for the US in 405 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: Germany and then he moved to Texas as part of 406 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: Operation paper clip. He became a US citizen in nineteen 407 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: fifty six. After joining NASA, Strugghold developed a space cabin 408 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: simulator as well as the space suits at the First 409 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: Astronauts War. He was the first professor of space medicine 410 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: at the world's first Department of Space Medicine, which was 411 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: established at the Air Force School of Aviation Medicine. Strugghold 412 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: was a true trailblazer in his field, and for a 413 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: time there were also a lot of awards and honors 414 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: and buildings and things like that named after him because 415 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: of his just trually enormous contributions to this. In terms 416 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: of his work in Nazi Germany, for ten of the 417 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: twelve years that Hitler was in power, he was the 418 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: director of the Aviation Medical Research Institute for the Reich 419 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: Air Ministry. This was one of several research institutes in 420 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: Germany that we're working at the intersection of medicine and flight. 421 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: After the start of World War Two, these institutes became 422 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: part of the Luftwaffe and at that point Struggold became 423 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: an officer. Strugghold was one of the very few paper 424 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: clippers who never joined the Nazi Party, and there is 425 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: some evidence that he was anti Nazi or politically neutral. However, 426 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: by the end of the war he was also on 427 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: the Central Registry of War Criminals and Security Suspects or 428 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: the pro CAST List. We mentioned that list in the 429 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: previous episode. This was a giant compilation of suspected war criminals. 430 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: It was a multi volume list containing the names of 431 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: about sixty thousand people. Some were known to have committed 432 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: war crimes, some were suspected, some weren't really suspected. They 433 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: were wanted for questioning or as witnesses, And as we 434 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: discussed last time, this list could be all over the 435 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: place in terms of whose name was on it, and 436 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: how that name got there, and how much substantiation there 437 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: was for whatever had led them to be included. While 438 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: Strugghold was director of the Aviation Medical Research Institute LUFTWAFFA, 439 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: doctors and members of the s S were carrying out 440 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: experiments on human beings, and some of these experiments were 441 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: related to Strugghold's field of work. Many German pilots who 442 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: had been shot down over the English Channel during the 443 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: Battle of Britain in nineteen forty had survived the initial crash, 444 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: but died of hypothermia before they could be pulled from 445 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: the water, so the Luftwaffa wanted to figure out the 446 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: body's limits and whether it was possible to resuscitate people 447 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: who had died of exposure to cold. They did this 448 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: by plunging both animals and people into icy water until 449 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: they died, and then trying to revive them. Other experiments 450 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: that Luftwaffa doctors conducted on human subjects included using hypoxia 451 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: chambers to simulate exposure to extreme altitude and forcing people 452 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: to ingest seawater. Most of these experiments were carried out 453 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: at the Dachau concentration camp. Some of them were fatal 454 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: experiments also, and many of the people who had carried 455 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: these experiments out had either been killed or died by 456 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: suicide by the end of the war, but a lot 457 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: of those who were still living ultimately faced trial at Nuremberg. 458 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: Struggold actually submitted affidavits and some of these trials, and 459 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: his name came up and questioning at various points, but 460 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: he was not put on trial himself. Struggle definitely knew 461 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: about at least some of this research, particularly the freezing 462 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: experiments he attended a conference in ninety two where the 463 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: researchers talked about their results, and he commented on their 464 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: work after that presentation. When asked about it later, he 465 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: stressed that the experiments had been done on criminals, but 466 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: also said that he generally didn't approve of work that 467 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: was conducted on non consenting human subjects. He said he 468 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: didn't allow such experiments at the institute, although by that 469 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: point the institute was part of the Luftwaffe and the 470 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Luftwaffe was carrying out such experiments. However, there are a 471 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: lot of unanswered questions about exactly how much Strugghold knew 472 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: about this research, when he knew about it, whether it 473 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: wasn't his power to stop it, and whether he helped 474 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: cover up its existence or the involvement of his colleagues, 475 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: and some early interrogations, He and other researchers generally penned 476 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: all these human experiments on Dr. Sigmund Rasher, who had 477 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: been involved in the hypoxia and hypothermia experiments. Rasher and 478 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: his wife had both been executed by order of Heinrich 479 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: Himmler in struggled described Rasher as quote fringe, and he 480 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: and others described these experiments sort of as the work 481 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: of one deranged, clearly unethical man. But it became clear 482 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: that Roscher didn't do this work alone and that many 483 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: other LUFTWAFFA doctors had been directly involved. Many of the 484 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: experiments had been approved by Heinrich Himler or by high 485 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: ranking LUFTWAFFA officers, and they had been supervised by LUFTWAFFA 486 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: doctors and by people who worked at other German research institutes, 487 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: including the Institute for Aviation Medicine in Munich. Some of 488 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: the people who ran these experiments had also been close 489 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: working colleagues with hubert As Strugghold, including co authoring papers 490 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: with him. But at the same time, that's pretty circumstantial 491 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: enough people connected to strugg Hold knew about or were 492 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: directly involved in these experiments that it seems like he 493 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: should have known the details of what was going on 494 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: beyond just hearing other researchers talk about it at that 495 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: one conference in two but we don't know whether he 496 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: actually did or whether he took any action based on 497 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: that knowledge. Struggled was investigated in connection to this several times. 498 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: The first was under Operation paper Clip, but at this 499 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: point it's obvious hard to trust that the reports created 500 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: for Operation paper Clip were thorough or complete. The second 501 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: was in nineteen fifty eight after a magazine article alleged 502 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: that Strugghold had done research on human subjects. That investigation 503 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: was dropped after the Air Force released a statement that 504 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: he had already been investigated. In nineteen seventy three, the 505 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: i n S opened an investigation into thirty five suspected 506 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: war criminals, and Strugghold was one of them, but the 507 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: I n S eventually closed that case due to a 508 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: lack of evidence. After this, Strugghold maintained that he had 509 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: already been cleared of all suspicion before entering the United States. 510 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: Then the os I opened another investigation in nine three, 511 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: but Strugghold died in six so at that point that 512 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: investigation was closed. One experiment that Strugghold was more clearly 513 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: connected to involved exposing children with epilepsy to simulated high 514 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: altitudes to see if it was possible to induced seizures 515 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: insusceptible people. That experiment took place in nineteen forty three 516 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: at the institute that Strugghold was running. It doesn't seem 517 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: like any of the children were seriously harmed, but the 518 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: experiment also didn't conform to the institute's ethical guidelines. This 519 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: came to light in so years after Strugghold's death. Regardless 520 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: of what his true level of involvement was and Nazi 521 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: experiments onto human beings, these allegations and the investigations really 522 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: affected Strokehold's reputation. Most of the honors and awards that 523 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: used to be named after him have since been renamed 524 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: or retired. Portraits of him at academic and medical institutions 525 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: have mostly been removed or covered up. Even though his 526 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: influence on space medicine was really comparable to Werner von 527 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: Brown's influence on space exploration, the amount of public information 528 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: and laudatory write ups on the two men just do 529 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: not compare. You can go look for stuff on Werner 530 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: von Brown read about it all day. It's a lot 531 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: harder to find information on hupartist struggled. He still has 532 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: his staunch defenders, though, who point out that there's just 533 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,239 Speaker 1: no solid evidence directly connecting him to some of these experiments. UM. 534 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: They point out various flaws and people who have tried 535 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: to make those connections UM, some of which have like 536 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: conflated two different German research institutes into one thing when 537 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: they really weren't. So that is where we're going to 538 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: ramp up today. But to be clear, this episode is 539 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: of course not remotely comprehensive. As we noted at the top, 540 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: there were about six D specialists brought into the US 541 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: under Operation paper Clip. Annie Jacobson's book Operation paper Clip, 542 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: which was one of the sources for these two episodes, 543 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: focuses on just twenty one of them. So even though 544 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,479 Speaker 1: that is much more comprehensive, it's still just a tiny 545 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: portion of the total. And like this episode, it's not 546 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: really focused on researchers who may have really fit the 547 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: descriptions that Operation paper Clip was using to describe the 548 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: specialists it was recruiting. I I every time we look 549 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: at these and really any um, you know, post World 550 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: War two discussions of of the people who had been 551 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: part of that conflict and involved with things like this, 552 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: I'm always surprised when I have those moments of like, huh, 553 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: that person was still alive the year I got married. 554 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: Like I it places it so deeply in my own 555 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: lifetime that I I have to remind myself that like 556 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: this was not as long ago as we think of 557 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: often right right well. And then in addition to that, UM, 558 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,959 Speaker 1: one of the things that like just kept continually uh 559 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: striking me as I was working on this and the 560 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: earlier episode is that after World War Two there was 561 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: this whole effort to just denazified Germany and to remove 562 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: Nazis from positions of power and to try to place 563 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: people into positions of power who didn't have Nazi sympathies 564 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: or connections to the Nazi Party. But then there was 565 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: this whole effort in the United States that was like, well, 566 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: we'll take them though and give them us citizenship, which 567 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: is a little weird considering the work that the United 568 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: States was doing in Germany. UM. We also said in 569 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: the previous episode that the United States was not the 570 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: only person that was exploiting the knowledge and talents of 571 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: all these German specialists, but for the most part, other 572 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: countries we're doing that on a more short term basis, 573 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: often actually in Germany, not bringing people into their own 574 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: countries and then allowing them to make up citizens Do 575 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: you have a listener mail that hopefully involves less horrific 576 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: things I do. It's from Caitlin and it is. It 577 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: followed our are behind the scenes episode where we talked 578 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: about Mother Goose, Rhymes and the Nelson Pill trial, and 579 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: we talked about how much we we both Holly, you 580 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: and I would would just throw ourselves on the ground 581 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: during Ring around the Rosy. Um, and how when I 582 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: was a child, I love to swing on the swing. 583 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: But when I tried to do it when I was 584 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: about thirty, I was like, this is a terrible experience. 585 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: How did I love this as a child? Um? So 586 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: Caitlin sent some insight. Caitlin says, Hi, Holly and Tracy. 587 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: In this week's behind the Scenes episode on Mother Goose 588 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,919 Speaker 1: and the Nelson Pill trial, Holly mentioned that she used 589 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: to love the all fall down part of Ring around 590 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: the Rosy as a child, and now it sounds awful. First, 591 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: I agree. Second, there's a fun developmental reason why little 592 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: kids like to fling themselves around. We have a body 593 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: system called appropriate reception, which basically lets your brain figure 594 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: out where you are in space and in relation to 595 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: things around you. Like other body systems, it takes time 596 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: to develop. Little kids are still developing their appropriate exception 597 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: sense and greatly benefit from activities that let them calibrate 598 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: like a Nintendo we mote. The same thing applies to swings, 599 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: getting picked up and carried in odd positions, and the 600 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: general shenanigans of childhood. I thought you might enjoy that tidbit. 601 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: Signed a former preschool teacher, A K. A. Caitlin, Thank 602 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: you so much for this email, Caitlin. I know about 603 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: prop reception because I have studied it out anatomy and physiology. 604 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: I didn't really make the connection that, like like all 605 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: these other systems of your body, it's not really developed 606 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: when you're little and spinning and spinning around until you 607 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: fall down, for example. But that makes total sense, and 608 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: I'm glad to now know it and that it's not 609 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: just that somehow I got old and couldn't swing on 610 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: a swing anymore. I mean I definitely got old and 611 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: can't fall down anymore at will. Um. Yeah. The other 612 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: thing that got me in recent years was skipping. Oh yeah, 613 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: I mean I used to love to skip when I 614 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: was a Kid's skip for days. And then I was 615 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: doing a running training program where like there were certain 616 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: intervals where you would skip for a period of time, 617 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: and I remember being excited like, oh I love skipping, 618 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: and by the end, I was like, oh dear me, 619 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: this is not. Nope, this isn't I'm gonna skip half 620 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: the time, and then it was like a quarter of 621 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: the time, and then it was like, I'm just gonna 622 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: walk during this. I'm gonna do us skip. I want 623 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: to walk with a bouncy step. Um. We've talked before 624 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: about our our indoor exercise attempts UM in the Land 625 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: of of COVID pandemic and UM. One of the things 626 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: that I do is I play Ring Fit Adventure on 627 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: the Nintendo Switch and it has a quiet mode, which 628 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 1: I think is really aimed for like folks who live 629 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: in apartments who don't want to jog in place above 630 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: their downstairs neighbor's heads. Um. But I shall turn that 631 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: on immediately to do less pounding on my knees and 632 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: other joints. So anyway, thank you again, Caitlin for that note. 633 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: I really just delighted learning that new fact about developmental 634 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: anatomy and physiology. If you would like to write to 635 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: us about this or any other podcast, we're at History 636 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: Podcast at I heart radio dot com, and we're all 637 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: over social media at miss in History. That's where you'll 638 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: find our Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest and Instagram, and 639 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: you can subscribe to our show on the iHeart Radio 640 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: app and Apple podcasts and anywhere else you like to 641 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: get podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class is a 642 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I 643 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 644 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.