1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: My name is Maggie Slapien. When I was thirty one 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: years old, I flipped my boat and nearly drowned. There's 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: a very real finish line here, and that is how 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: long can a human body survive without breathing. I can't 7 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: think of any other time that you're about to die 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: where you have just a few minutes left and you 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: know it. In the five years since then, I have 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: grappled with what it means to have survived and why 11 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: I went on the river in the first place. 12 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again, a podcast that showcases miraculous accounts 13 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people whose lives were 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first hand 15 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death. 16 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories 17 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. Please 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: keep in mind these stories are true and maybe triggering 19 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: for some listener and discretion as advised. 20 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: I grew up in suburban New Hampshire as kind of 21 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 2: what I would characterize as an indoor child. I didn't 22 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: like the outside. I didn't like feeling too cold, I 23 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: didn't like feeling too hot. I was kind of bookish. 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: I read voraciously, did pretty well in school. I never 25 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: felt like I sit in growing up. I had social 26 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: issues through high school, didn't have a lot of friends 27 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: for all intents and purposes. By the time I was 28 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: twenty two and I graduated with an English degree, I 29 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: had truly never lived outside of this one town that 30 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: I grew up into, New Hampshire, and that went to college. 31 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: And by the time I graduated college, I had started 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: running and I started hiking in the White Mountains in 33 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: New Hampshire. I started hiking with my dad, doing day hikes, 34 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: and the feeling that I got from being outside wasn't 35 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: anything that I'd encountered before. In the ways if you 36 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: go from under the tree canopy, because everything's quite treated 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: in until a certain elevation, to this alpine zone, and 38 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: this switch once you get up there happens really quickly 39 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: as you keep climbing and the trees go from big, towering, 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: dense canopies overhead, and then you break tree line and 41 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: you can see everything around you. I felt powerful and 42 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: I felt good at it, and I felt this sense 43 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: of accomplishment, and it was so novel to me that 44 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: this whole world existed just a couple hours away. And 45 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, I think I found something 46 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: I really like, and I think I loved being outdoors. 47 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: And I would spend my weekdays in classes thinking about, 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: like plotting how I could get back out into the 49 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: White Mountains and go hiking for the weekend. And so 50 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: my biggest dream in my final semester of college was 51 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: how do I experience more of this thing that I 52 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: found that I loved. Three days after I graduated college, 53 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: I packed up my little Sedan and I drove out 54 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: to Wyoming to start working in Yellowstone as the horseback guide. 55 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: And I never left the western part of the country. 56 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: I had been living in those Men, Montana for about 57 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: seven years. In twenty nineteen, I really started ramping up 58 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: what I was doing outside, and I wanted to do 59 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: everything and be really good. I had developed exercise induced asthma, 60 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: and in a mountain town like this, at least for 61 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: me in my early to mid twenties, your social life 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: was contingent on your ability to keep up and to 63 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: have these skills for different outdoor sports, and I had 64 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: a hard time keeping up with my cordio abilities. I 65 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: could do it, but my ability to keep up was 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: just lesser than the community around me, which is all 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: like a wonderful, supportive group of girls and guys who 68 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: just loved to get after it outside. So at this 69 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: time in twenty nineteen, I was really getting my foot 70 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: in the door to a different activity levels and wanting 71 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: to say yes to every invitation and still maintaining kind 72 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: of this desire I think that came from childhood and 73 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: early adulthood, feeling like I didn't have a strong social 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: group through high school and even early college, and so 75 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: this desire to fit in still kind of ran a 76 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 2: lot of my decision making. A lot of what I 77 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: did to kind of counter being a non impressive athlete 78 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: was being brave and saying yes to everything. Maybe I'll 79 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: be last biking up the trail, but I'll be the 80 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: first person to descend because I'm not scared of wrecking 81 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: my mountain bike. And so this desire to keep up 82 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: was kind of in full force at this point, and 83 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: I kind of felt like, Okay, I can do all 84 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: the things on land. I'm missing a water sport here, 85 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 2: and so I had picked up this older river runner 86 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: boat called a wave sport Frankensteign. It was about fifteen 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: years old when I got up for one hundred dollars 88 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: out of pawn shop. Through it in the back of 89 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: my truck. It was made for rolling and tipping. It 90 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 2: had very low stability. It's not a recreational boat. It's 91 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: like a long, lean river running boat. One of my 92 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: climbing partners and a fairly good friend at that point, 93 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: texted me and asked me if I wanted to go 94 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: out kayaking. At this point in the spring, I was 95 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: just desperate to do anything because spring out here is 96 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: pretty icy and crappy and you'll have one nice day 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: that then it sleeps the next day and the trails 98 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: are bad. And I was just going crazy doing my 99 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: workouts in the climbing gym and I just wanted something 100 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: to do. And so my friend texted and he said, 101 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: let's go kayaking, like I want to run this section 102 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: of the Gallaton River, and I said, yes, I have 103 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: a boat. Absolutely. Canden had been a climbing partner for 104 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: the last couple of years. He was really strong. We 105 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: would hang out. We want hiking. We are running together, 106 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: and he was also kind of tricky to pin down. 107 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: I knew I liked him as a friend. I probably 108 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: also had a crush on him from the perspective of 109 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: he is totally impossible to really get through too. And 110 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: so when he did reach out and be like, hey, 111 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: let's go to the hot springs, let's go to yoga, like, oh, absolutely, 112 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: like an invitation from Canaan. Because he's hard to get 113 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: it did not occur to me to say, I'm not 114 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: really comfortable running the Gallaton in May. It's not a 115 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: beginner friendly section. There's a lot of hazards on the water. 116 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: At that time, the water is basically pure snow melt. 117 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: The hazards are called strainers, which are these big kind 118 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: of debris blockades that get carried down the river. Think 119 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 2: of them like biaber dams. Fast moving water can go through, 120 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: but a boat can't. So if you happen to flip 121 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: your boat and you get pinned against the strainer, you 122 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: are being held in place underwater, and it's just it's 123 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: a reason for fatalities on the river, especially for inexperienced people. 124 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: But I didn't care. I said, yes, absolutely, so we 125 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: pull up in my truck and he starts to unload 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: the boats, and I walk down to the river, sliding 127 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: a little bit in the mud, and for the first time, 128 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: I'm kind of seeing that it's moving faster than I 129 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: thought it would. And this is the first time where 130 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: it had a little bit of doubt in my mind, 131 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: like maybe this is not a great idea, and I 132 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: don't actually really know how to kayak on a fast 133 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: moving river. All of my experience at this point is 134 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: reservoirs and calm lakes, and I definitely should it go 135 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: boating here. But I'm a good swimmer and I've never 136 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: been scared of water before. He had a spray skirt 137 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: for me, and the spray skirt is utilized to keep 138 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: splashing water out of the boat. And it's basically this 139 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: super tight think of like a high waisted skirt with 140 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: this big flap of waterproof or highly water resisted in 141 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: the uprane that stretches around and so you wear it 142 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: around your waist and then you stretch it around the 143 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: cockpit of your boat and it blocks water from getting it, 144 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 2: and it also if you don't know what you're doing, 145 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: it blocks you from getting out. 146 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: Of your boat. 147 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: And so he put the spray skirt around my cockpit, 148 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: the cockpit to my boat, pad it over my waist 149 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: and got into the boat. And then he said, do 150 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: you want to practice pulling it? And I said, I 151 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: don't know. It's pretty tight. I'm not sure. I think 152 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: I'll be fine because I just wanted to do it. 153 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: I was feeling a little bit anxious at this point, 154 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: and I just wanted to get on the water, and 155 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: I didn't want to not be able to pull the 156 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: skirt on land, which was, of course, in hindsight, the 157 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: stupidest thing I could possibly be describing right now. But 158 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 2: I didn't want him to seem me not be able 159 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: to pull the skirt because it would mean that the 160 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: plants would be ruined. He's also a ripper guide and 161 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: had done whitewater rescue, and it's hard enough to get 162 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: kidin to invite me to do anything. So I'm just 163 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: going to go for it because every other time I've 164 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: done anything that's always been fine. He's like, okay, he 165 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: trusted me. I'd push off the bank into the water, 166 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: and right away it's too fast. My boat's being wra 167 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: so I decide it's a tippy boat. It's an outdated geometry, 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: and I didn't have the reflexes to keep it stable, 169 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: and I didn't know. Everything I was doing with my 170 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: paddles seemed to make it worse, and it was fast, 171 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: and I remember looking over at the bank and being like, Okay, 172 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: I just want to be out of this boat. I 173 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: don't want to do this, and then realizing I actually 174 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: can't get to the bank. This is too fast and 175 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: I can't risk tipping my boat trying to get out 176 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: of this current that I'm I don't have the reflexes 177 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: to counter what the water is doing to my boat 178 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: because I don't have the experience. It was out of 179 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: control and it was too tippy, and the spray skirt 180 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: felt like it was suffocating me because it was so tight. 181 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 2: And I was stressed at this point because I was like, Okay, 182 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: I think I can do this, but I don't know, 183 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: and this is too fast and oh my god, and 184 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: the idea that I'm wearing this spray skirt that is 185 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: essentially trapping me in the boat kind of pops right 186 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: into my head. I think, Oh, you definitely can't tip 187 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: your boat over because you were wearing a spray skirt, 188 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: so all these things are already in my head, and 189 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: I was like, don't be scared of water. You know 190 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: you're a good swimmer. You've never been scared of water before. 191 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: Just calm down. It's got to be fine, because that's 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 2: always fine. And so we're about ten minutes downriver and 193 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: he's behind me, and I hear him yell to stay 194 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: to the left, and then I turned around to hear him, 195 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 2: and when I turned back, I was pulled into the 196 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: right hand channel and I was heading right towards a strainer, 197 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: one of those big damn like blockades of just debris, 198 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: like big jagged logs and branches and like dead trees, 199 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: and the top of the strainer was this big dead tree. 200 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: In a panic, because I didn't have any experience and 201 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do, I put my hand out, 202 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: threw my hand out, I hit the tree super hard, 203 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: and my boat flipped. Oh my god, Oh my god, 204 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: oh shit, I'm in so much trouble right now. The 205 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: water was freezing that it's felt the flood of water 206 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: go down my jacket, go up my nose. And I 207 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: see that I'm moving really fast underwater. I am upside 208 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: down in the boat and the water's really bright because 209 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 2: it's sunny out, and I can see these rocks bouncing, 210 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: and I can see the bottom of the river, and 211 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 2: right away my brain starts thinking, okay, your countdown clock 212 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: has started. To roll a boat, you snap your hips 213 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: really hard into the side of your boat and you 214 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: leverage with your paddle at the same time, and that 215 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: rolls your boat. I don't know how to roll a boat. 216 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: I've never been trained. People take row clinics, they practice 217 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: in controlled situations, they practice in pools, so when they 218 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: get into situations like this on a river, they can 219 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: roll their boat like its second nature. And I don't 220 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 2: have that skill. And so I throw my hips in 221 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: to the side of the boat. It rocks a little bit, 222 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: nothing happened, still moving down river upside down, but they 223 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 2: don't have a paddle because I have lost it. When 224 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: I hit the tree, throw my hips into the boat again, 225 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: it rocks a little more. But I'm also using energy, 226 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: and so I'm trying to be pragmatic as I'm starting 227 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: to panic and thinking, Okay, if you're using this much energy, 228 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: you are going to lose more time. I started feeling 229 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: that feeling in my chest where you're underwater for too long, 230 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: and so I think, Okay, pull the spray skirt and 231 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: get the fuck out of the boat and do what's 232 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: called a wet exit, where you'll bring your knees into 233 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: your chest, you'll push against your boat, you'll release the 234 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: spray skirt, and you'll come out upside down and then 235 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: pop out of the water. And so I start grabbing 236 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: for the grab you but my fingers are really thick 237 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: in the knear being gloves, and I'm also underwater, and 238 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: I'm really dysory. I did and I have again no 239 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: muscle memory, and so I can't find the grab loop 240 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: for this unfamiliar spray skirt to release it to let 241 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: myself out of the boat. I finally do feel it, 242 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: and I have this sense of relief, like, Okay, here's 243 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: the grab handle, just pull it and get out of 244 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: the boat. And I pull it as hard as I can. 245 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: It's not releasing the sprays skirt. It's too tight. I 246 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: didn't practice on shore. I don't know what it feels like. 247 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: And so my last last resort, because the grab handle's 248 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: not working, I think maybe I can just release it 249 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: around the edges, but this seal is so tight around 250 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: the edges of the cockpit, and my fingers are like 251 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: really fat and clumsy, and I'm panicking, so I don't 252 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: have the same precision of movement. Nothing's releasing. And then 253 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: I really think, Okay, you made your final mistake. This 254 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: might actually be the time that you don't make get 255 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: and I felt really, really sad. Unless you've been buried 256 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: in an avalanche or trapped in a burning building without 257 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: knowing if they're going to be rescued, I can't think 258 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: of any other time that you're about to die where 259 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: you have just a few minutes left and you know it. 260 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: The thoughts that you have with enough time to think 261 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: about the fact that you are about to die, we're 262 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: so much bigger and more impactful than how many tens 263 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: of thousands of thoughts to go through her head each day. 264 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: And one of those thoughts is your time is actually 265 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: running out. And that awareness of it felt like I 266 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: had punctured my brain with a nail or something, and 267 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: I started just feeling this deep final sorrow. This is 268 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: the last thing that I chose to do, and there 269 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: is no point to me having done this. I didn't 270 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: have to say yes to this. I could have been 271 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: at home right now, I could have been at the 272 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: climbing gym, lamenting the fact that the trails are still icy, 273 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: and my dad had just his cancer had relapsed months before. 274 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: My family was already having a really hard time. I 275 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: just thought, I did this to them, and what is 276 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: this going to do to them? And I just felt 277 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: I loved my family and they had always kind of 278 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: wondered why I pursued these things, and I thought, I'm 279 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: so sorry. I hope that they know that I didn't 280 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: mean to do this. Then I thought, one more time, 281 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: you have to just try one more time. I throw 282 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: my hips really hard, as hard as I can, into 283 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 2: the side of the boat. I'd push with my hands 284 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: against the water because I don't have a paddle, and 285 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: I can get one side of my face out of 286 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: the water that I had this path gurgling terrible breath 287 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: of air through one corner of my mouth less. So 288 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 2: the pain of continuing progress of drowning is the steer 289 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: you're underwater. We've all been underwater before, and then as 290 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: that hour glass goes down, you feel that pressure in 291 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 2: your chest where maybe you have gone down and touched 292 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: the bottom of the deepest part of the pool. Or 293 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: you've been hunting around because your watch fell, or you're 294 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: trying to find your kids ring on the bottom of 295 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: the pool, and by the time you find it, you've 296 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: been underwater a little too long for how long it's 297 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 2: going to take you to get back up, And you 298 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: feel that pressure in your chest as you're ticking up 299 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: towards the surface, and you're like, man, I just want 300 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 2: to get to the top of this. And then you 301 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: when you break freeing, you can breathe, and then it's 302 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 2: a great feeling. But that feeling of pressure in your 303 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: chest without the release is is horrifying. And so that 304 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: feeling of pressure in my chest starts a couple you know, 305 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: maybe maybe sixty seconds in because I didn't even have 306 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: time to take a big breath of air before I 307 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: went under. Then that feeling of pressure in my chest 308 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: starts to feel like a burning. My eyes start seeing spots, 309 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 2: there's this weird ache in the back of your head, 310 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: and then there's this really deep, hollow, bad feeling in 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: your chest that almost feels like someone's pressing against your lungs, 312 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: and adviies they feel like they're being flattened in that feeling, 313 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: combined with the terror of knowing that the time has 314 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: run out is the last thing that I remember and 315 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 2: feel underwater. And then I open my eyes and I'm 316 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: looking at the sky and I'm hearing the river, and 317 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 2: I'm feeling this pressure across my chest and it's Hayden. 318 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: He has me in a lifeguard drag that I know 319 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 2: from being a lifeguard, and it's a whitewater rescue carrie 320 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 2: for pulling someone out of the water. I'm staring at 321 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 2: the sky and choking on water and gagging, but I'm 322 00:19:54,920 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: not dead. And it doesn't make any sense because that 323 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: nail in my brain, the idea of you are thinking 324 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: your last thoughts is still in my brain, and so 325 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: I can't quite make sense of what I'm seeing and feeling. 326 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: And then I realized he got to me. He pulled 327 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: me out of the boat. So I push away and 328 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 2: I swim into the eddy and I dragged myself onto 329 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: the bank and just fake, Oh, why God, that it 330 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: didn't happen. It didn't happen, You didn't die, it didn't happen. 331 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: Those were not your last thoughts. You're not dead. And 332 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: he climbs out of the water and just were on 333 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 2: the bank and I'm trying to stand up, because part 334 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: of my persona is that I pretend that nothing's wrong. Ever, 335 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,239 Speaker 2: so I try to stand up. I try to make 336 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: a joke out of it. I can't stand up. My 337 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: leg buck while I throw up river water onto the bank, 338 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: and I am in shock. I think I can't stop shaking. 339 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: We have to get back to the truck. But part 340 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,959 Speaker 2: of my desire to be positioned as fearless is to 341 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 2: act light, and so I'm clearly incredibly shaken. I can't 342 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: stop shaking. He's shaky, he telled me. He thinks I 343 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: was a gonner. He is staring at me, he's trying 344 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: to he's looking at my pupils. He's seeing that I'm 345 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: in shock. I fake him for getting to me in time. 346 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 2: We walk in silence down this dirt road until we 347 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 2: get to one of the trucks and get to his truck, 348 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: and we don't say anything. I think I ask him 349 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: if he wants to stop and get coffee on the 350 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 2: way back. I'm determined to not see him affected by this. 351 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: And we get a coffee, which is weird, and then 352 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: he leaves me on my truck. I can't start my 353 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: truck because I once I'm alone in there. I don't 354 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: know where the gas pedal is, I don't know where 355 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: the break is. I put my foot on the gas 356 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: and nothing happens. I realize I have to turn the 357 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: truck on. I can't can't in the ignition because I'm 358 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: shaking so hard. I finally drive with my hands on 359 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: ten and two the twenty five minutes back to my house, 360 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: and I just dropped all my disgusting clothing in the entryway. 361 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: I kind of walk in a daze into my room. 362 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: I smell like a river, and I can't take a 363 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: shower because the water sound is so scary that I 364 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: can't get into the shower, and so I just put 365 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 2: on sweatpants and I take out my computer because I 366 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: work remotely for this online publisher, and I start doing 367 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: work because I think, Okay, you are not dead, so 368 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: you need to be productive, which is insane. And I 369 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: answer emails for my work, and I write the weekly 370 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: newsletter because I can't. These are things that don't take 371 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: much thought. I can't do any editing work. I can't 372 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: write any of my articles. I send out a few 373 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 2: text messages to friends, one of whom had told me 374 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: to not go on the water that day. She was 375 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 2: a voter, and she said, I don't think you're taking 376 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: the gallaton seriously enough. And I texted her and I 377 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: said something along the lines of uh huh, almost drowned. 378 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: You were right, because I am determined in my head 379 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: to make this not a thing. And I am brave, 380 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: I am unaffected. Sure I can get into bad situations 381 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 2: and nothing's going to impact me because what I'm known 382 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: for is be fearless. And of course she's concerned, and 383 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: I'd say, don't worry about it, don't want to talk 384 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: about it. Tell a few more friends, send down messages 385 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: for a pot luck that I'm posting that I don't cancel, 386 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: because again, my reaction is entirely to be unaffected. That night, 387 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: I keep jolting awake because I can't breathe. The next night, 388 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: I can't sleep through the night because I wake up suffocating, 389 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 2: and sometimes I actually have my face in my elbow 390 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: or in a pillow. When you're asleep, maybe you do 391 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: the same thing, but you just roll over, you turn 392 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: your face up, and you don't wake up because your 393 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: body is like bro, I can't breathe with their face 394 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 2: in the pillow, and so you just roll over and 395 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: you don't notice. And for me, my body not being 396 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: able to breathe because my face is in the pillow 397 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: jolts me awake in a panic. I am scared of 398 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: loud noises. I'm jumpy. I'm displaying PTSD but refusing to 399 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: acknowledge it. I host this pot luck dinner. My strongest 400 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: memory from that dinner is being in a daze. And 401 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: I've asked friends about this recently, and they say that 402 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: I was being my usual avoidance self and I was 403 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: pretending everything was fine. They also say I look dead 404 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: behind the eyes. At one point, I take some food 405 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 2: scraps out back to put in the crampost bit and 406 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: my house is really loud. I have a dozen friends 407 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: over for dinner, and when I pull the slider shut 408 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: behind me, it goes from loud in my house to quiet, 409 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: and it's dark and I have a panic attack, which 410 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: was the first one, but there were more to follow. 411 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: It reminds my brain somewhere, with that spike driven into 412 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 2: my brain, that I went from above water where it 413 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: was loud, because the river is very loud that day, 414 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: with how faust it's moving to underwater where it's silent, 415 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: and I have a panic attack from hearing it go 416 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 2: from loud to quiet. And the same thing happens when 417 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 2: the shower goes from on to shut off. Even if 418 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: there's loud music and I shut the door, anything that 419 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: goes from loud to quiet in an instant sends me 420 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 2: into the debilitating panic attack. Over the next couple days 421 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: or weeks, friends will try to bring it up to 422 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: me because they've been talking amongst themselves. My best friend 423 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: out here, Haley, asked me to ride bikes to a 424 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 2: coffee shop because she knows that it's easier than sitting 425 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: me down and asking directly to my face, and so 426 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,959 Speaker 2: she's peddling. It's you know, it's probably early June at 427 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: this point, and she's peddling behind me. We're going to 428 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: go work remotely from a coffee shop near my house. 429 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: And she brings it up and she asks if I 430 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: have any feelings about it, and if I want to 431 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: talk about it, and I snapped at her and I said, 432 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: I told you I don't want to talk about it. 433 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 2: I know what I did. I know I made a mistake. 434 00:26:53,840 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 2: And she doesn't ask again, and all this time now 435 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: I'm pretending I'm okay, and which of course I'm not. 436 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 2: I call my mom on my way to the grocery 437 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: store because I can't sit down and do anything without 438 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: a distraction, and I call her through my truck speakers 439 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: and I tell her very quickly, I had a bad 440 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 2: accident voting. I didn't know if I was going to 441 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: make it. I love you, I'm sorry, I won't do 442 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: this again, and I brush over it. She can tell 443 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 2: there's more of the situation that I'm saying, but I'm 444 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 2: again not giving anyone a chance to really get in there. 445 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: But in my head, my brain felt like it was 446 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: split into two pieces. One of those pieces was where 447 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 2: I had died. The idea that I'm having my final 448 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 2: thoughts is so stuck in my brain that I can't 449 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: tell what's real and what's not. And was that a 450 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 2: yoga class with some friends? And I remember we were 451 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: in down dog and I'm looking at my hand from 452 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: the mat, And then suddenly I'm wondering what flowers did 453 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: my mom choose? What did the font on the program 454 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: look like for my memorial service? What were the logistics 455 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: of it? Did they have the memorial service in Montana 456 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: where I live or did they have it on the 457 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: East coast? My mom doesn't fly. Did she fly out 458 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 2: to Montana to take care of my stuff? What has 459 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: happened to all these things that I own? And who 460 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: showed up to my memorial? Did my friends go back east? 461 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: All these things are happening in my head during this 462 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: yoga flow to excruciating detail. Wondering about the font on 463 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: the program from my memorial service. I remember wondering and 464 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: hoping that it wasn't a curly cute font, and then 465 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: I snapped out of it, and everyone's in child's post 466 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: and I'm stilling downward Dog and I'm in yoga and 467 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: I'm not dead. And this happens every single day. These 468 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: logistics of my death are in my head because I 469 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: had those big thoughts that were or that any thoughts 470 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: I've ever had, and they were the thought of these 471 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 2: are your last thoughts. My brain has split into these 472 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: two places that I don't really tell people around me, 473 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: but I realize I've been spacing out, and so I'll 474 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 2: just tell them, oh, sorry, can you repeat that? Or 475 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 2: I'll be on my computer and realize I've just been 476 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: staring at it or read the same sentence over and over, 477 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: or I'm standing in front of my mailbox with my 478 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: mail key lost in the logistics of the impact of 479 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: my death. I tell people off handedly that I'm going 480 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: to take a role clinic in the spring for the summer, 481 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: and I'm going to get back in my boat and 482 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to become a really good white water boater. 483 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: And there's no way I'm getting back in this boat. 484 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 2: Like I've done with a lot of other things, I 485 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: just push it down, and I accept that my brain 486 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: feels split, and I accept that I'm scared to go 487 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: into running water, and that I still flinch when water 488 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: hits my face in the shower, and that sometimes I 489 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: forget that I haven't died. But for the most part, 490 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: I just bury it and becomes another anecdote. Cayden and 491 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: I have become much closer. We're never dating or anything. 492 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: It's just this understanding of someone else who has been 493 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: through this event with you, and no one else was there, 494 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: no one else did what he did and rescued me, 495 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: and so I have this understandable loyalty and allegiance to 496 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: him as someone who has saved me. Caden and I 497 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: are both pretty avoided people we both have, you know, 498 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: some kind of barrier up at one point that he 499 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: just wants to apologize and he brought me on the 500 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 2: river that day and it's it's his fault and I just, 501 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: you know, mumbled through a response and tell him that 502 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: it's it's fine. I made the choice too. In my head, 503 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: I think at some point I am going to sit 504 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: down with him and we're going to talk about this 505 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: and we are I am going to thank him for 506 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: what he did. I'm going to say him for saving me. 507 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: But he's still himself and he's still flaky. I keep thinking, 508 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: in the spring of the summer, I'm really going to 509 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: like tell him what's been going on in my brain 510 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: and how hard this has been for me. And once 511 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: it's voting season again, like I'm going to take a 512 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: role clinic with you know, whitewater trainers at a pool 513 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: and a controlled environment, and I'm going to get over 514 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: the sphere and then maybe and then I will go 515 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: voting again. He was supposed to meet me for this 516 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: yoga class that we had planned and he hadn't shown up, 517 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: and I was I hadn't heard from you in a 518 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: couple of days, and I was annoyed, like, you know, 519 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: I care about this person, but he's also so flaky 520 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: and it hurts my feelings. And I had a voicemail 521 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: from a mutual friend. This is a really nice guy, 522 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: and he told me that I should go to the 523 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: hospital because Cayden was there and he was about to 524 00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: be pulled off life support. And I went to the 525 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: hospital and he's hooked up to machines and he is 526 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: about to be pulled off the machines because he's young 527 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: and he's strong, and there he's an organ donor. And 528 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: I did at that point thank him for what he 529 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: had done for me, but it was too late, and 530 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: then he was gone. He was the only person who 531 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: was there. And so you go through this traumatic event, 532 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: even if you pretend you're not traumatized by it, and 533 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 2: you have one another person who was there, and then 534 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: that person is suddenly gone and you cared about them 535 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: on every level. What if I had done something different 536 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: with him? What if I hadn't been annoyed that he 537 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 2: had bailed on yoga class? What if I had just 538 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: gone over to his house? And who knows? So you 539 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: have all these ideas that, like, could I have returned 540 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: that favor of saving his life that he did for me, 541 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: and those thoughts just there in my head all the time. 542 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: And it's years and years later, after Caden passed away, 543 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: I pushed this accident even further away and now now 544 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: no one understood. Nobody was there now four and a 545 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 2: half it'll be five years later. Is really when I 546 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: started facing it in therapy where they make me do 547 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: terrible things like pretend I'm still underwater in the boat, 548 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: the awful thing to go through, and I it's not 549 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: a fun therapy session, but I have started confronting it. 550 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: I didn't want to have thrills or be a white 551 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: water boat or I just wanted to be invited. This 552 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: is the truth, is that I just at that point 553 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: five years ago, like being accepted and included and keeping 554 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: that adventurous persona just mattered so much to me that 555 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 2: I that it almost killed me. I look at risk 556 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: differently now. My risk assessment had been really skewed from 557 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: so many close calls and getting away with it. It 558 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 2: is a lot better than it was because I know 559 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: what it's like to lose consciousness and think that it's 560 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: over because you made a stupid choice to go boat 561 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: a sception of water you should to fit on. And 562 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: so I say no to things, or I change my mind, 563 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: or I turn around because I love my life and 564 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for it. I called my mom and 565 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: I finally cried about it to her, and I said, 566 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 2: I'm this accident from twenty nineteen was a lot worse 567 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: than I told you, and here's what it was like. 568 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: And I just I love you guys so much, and 569 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. And she said, the people who care 570 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: about you care about you because of who you are, 571 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: not what you've done. And I wish I had just 572 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: talked to her when it just happened. But that really 573 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: stuck with me. So if I was going to meet 574 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: myself how many years ago, fourteen years ago, when I 575 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: moved out west for the first time and felt the 576 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: need to prove myself, I would tell myself that the 577 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: people who love you are going to love you for 578 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: who you are and not because of how brief they 579 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 2: think you are. And I think I know that now. 580 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back This is Alive again, joining me for a 581 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: conversation about today's story or my other Alive against story. 582 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: Producers Kate Sweeney, Nicholas Takowski and Brent Day and I'm 583 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: your host Dan Bush, So Kate another amazing story. It's 584 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: another story that's fascinating to me because it goes back 585 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: into that anthropological need to belong, that need to fit in. 586 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 4: Wow, even when her friend has given her that door 587 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 4: of like, hey, let's do some you know, let's practice 588 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 4: some roles before we get out there. 589 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: And then in this community where people are like showing 590 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 3: themselves to be bad asses, like, she doesn't want to 591 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 3: not be a bad ass. And at one point I 592 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 3: asked her to like, Okay, what do you tell a 593 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 3: young person. Let's say there's a younger you coming in 594 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 3: and you see her doing or a younger person like 595 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 3: you would you say to her? Rights, I'd have tell 596 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 3: them the same thing my mom told me, which is 597 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 3: like you're enough basically, which sounds like kind of a cliche, 598 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 3: but like in this case, yeah, as you say, it 599 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 3: almost killed her, or not to really feel that. 600 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: The need for external validation might kill you. 601 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think it goes into your teens, 602 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 4: goes into your twenties. You know. I think we've all 603 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 4: been in those situations even as adults, where you don't 604 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 4: want to admit what you don't know, and this is 605 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 4: just an example where your life is on the line. 606 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: What's the rednecks last words? 607 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 5: Yes, but I mean I think it all, you know, 608 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 5: I think it's It's also just one of those things 609 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 5: where it's like the you're enough. It sounds it sounds 610 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 5: so obvious, but it's something that some people you have 611 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 5: to learn the hard way that like you're not going 612 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 5: like you can't like adventure your way out, or you 613 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 5: can't like fake your way through. Like sometimes people just 614 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 5: have to learn, like I have to be okay with 615 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 5: who I am. Being reckless in order to prove myself 616 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 5: to other people is not going to make me feel accepted. 617 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 5: It's just gonna make me dead. 618 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: I hope that's something I can convey to my children 619 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: so that they wouldn't but they're not. They're going to 620 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: do stupid shit, so you know what I mean, Like, 621 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: I hope that that's something I could say, Hey, don't 622 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: you don't you you're good enough. You don't need to 623 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: get external validation. 624 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, And what both of you are saying, I mean 625 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 3: I'm going to say, like, as I was listening to 626 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: Maggie Sleppy and tell the story, I'm thinking like you're 627 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 3: like shouting at this this young person like no. 628 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: Stop it, no, don't get in this kayak stop no. 629 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 3: And so yeah, some of us do have to learn 630 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 3: the hard way, but I think that most of us 631 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 3: end up having some difficult experience, not to this extreme 632 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 3: of that being kind of like slapped in our faces 633 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: at some point, or we hope we would, and to 634 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 3: your point, Dan of like hoping you can like pass 635 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 3: this on to your child. I think about things about 636 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 3: this a lot, like as a parent, like, yeah, I 637 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 3: have this like enormous love for my child. And I 638 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 3: actually remember there was this moment our whole family was 639 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 3: on like this trip for Christmas at my sister's house, 640 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 3: and I had had food poisoning the night before we flew, 641 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 3: and so I was like up all night with food poisoning. 642 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 3: And then we flew anyway, and I had a baby, 643 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 3: and the baby wasn't sleeping all that night that we arrived, 644 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 3: and so I'm trying to nap on this air mattress 645 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 3: on the floor because we're sleeping on an air mattress 646 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 3: like with my baby. This one like the first day 647 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 3: we're here, and there's actually just like a curtain separating 648 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 3: us from the rest of the family in the living room. 649 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 3: So I'm lying there and I'm not really asleep, and 650 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 3: I like roll over at one point, and the baby's awake, 651 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 3: and I'm like, I just want to be asleep. 652 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: I feel so. 653 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 3: Horrible, and I like rolled into I'm I'm shit you 654 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 3: not Amy Pohler's memoir and I was like, just opened 655 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 3: it up. And I opened it up to a random 656 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 3: page and it's this and Amy polar like writes in 657 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 3: the on the in this book, like and so I 658 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 3: say it a younger Amy. That's so I say to 659 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 3: Amy when I when I when I, when I hear 660 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 3: that criticizing voice in my brain, I say, don't say 661 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 3: that about Amy. She's my friend. And I think that's 662 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 3: a cliche. At that point in my life, I'd never 663 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 3: heard that cliche before, and it hit me like lightning. 664 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 3: And that moment on the floor with my child, I realized, like, 665 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 3: holy shit, my mother had ended every phone call with 666 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 3: when I say I love you, I love you more. 667 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 3: And I wass been like, hah okay, bye, mom. 668 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 2: No she's not lying. 669 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 3: My mother does love me more? And oh no, And 670 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 3: I turned to my infant child and I think I 671 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 3: love him more than he's ever going to love himself. 672 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 3: And that struck me and it like cold, you know, 673 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 3: I felt this coldness in the pit of my stomach. 674 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 3: Because you want your own child to understand that the 675 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 3: love that you have for them is like as big 676 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 3: as the universe. It's not just you. So that like 677 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 3: I mean, like frankly, so that like when you're gone, 678 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 3: they still feel that and they still know that even 679 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 3: if there had never been to you somehow, and so 680 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 3: like to make somebody see that fact and not just 681 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 3: be like, oh mom, you know, it can take something. 682 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 1: Nature, whether whether you know people say, oh, you're here 683 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: for a reason, We're here to experience trauma, to grow, 684 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: like the reason we're on planet Earth and in these 685 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: bodies and in you know, in this meat avatars so 686 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: that we can experience pain. And that's there's you know, 687 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: throughout religion and in Buddhism and everything else. It's an 688 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: interesting idea, but I'm you know, I don't I don't 689 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: know whether that's true or not. But whether it is 690 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: true that that's like if there's any any sort of 691 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, meaning to our lives, whether that's true or not, 692 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: we do do that we do. My kid, I can 693 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 1: tell them a million times, you know, I love you more, 694 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,479 Speaker 1: and I can hope the hell that that they're safe, 695 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: and I can try to protect them from that. But 696 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: they're gonna do stupid shit. They're gonna get hurt. I 697 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: just hope they don't die, you know. I hope that 698 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: they can can't experience it and get to the other side. 699 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: We were just it's funny. We were just in the 700 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: men's room, and I was for some reason, I was 701 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: reminded of all these lately, all these experiences of me 702 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: ever having put my foot in my mouth, or ever 703 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: having embarrassed myself, or ever having done something stupid. For 704 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: some reason, that was I've been in this weird life 705 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: review lately. The weirdest time is at four in the morning. 706 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: Be like, why did I say that to them in 707 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: the fourth grade? 708 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 5: You know, I called that the four am special. Yeah, 709 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 5: it's like, oh, it's time. 710 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 4: When you think about it, Like so much of our socialization, 711 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 4: the reason you do, hazing is a terrible word. When 712 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 4: I was in the Army, goal good natured teasing. You know, 713 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 4: we'd be out on the track, out in the field 714 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 4: and the new recruit comes in and you're like, could 715 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 4: you go over to that other track, which is like 716 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 4: a track is a military vehicle where you have all 717 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 4: your radio equipment. And we'd say, could you go over 718 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 4: to that other track and get us a box of 719 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 4: grid coordinates? Grid coordinator is just a coordinate and map, 720 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 4: And of course the private is like, yes, I'll go 721 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 4: get it, you know, and then they run off and 722 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 4: get it and you have a good laugh, and then 723 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 4: they come back and you go they didn't have any 724 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 4: you know, you see them trying to and then you're 725 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 4: you're like, welcome to the club. Come on, you know, 726 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 4: don't do dumb things. You can always ask ask a question, 727 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 4: you know. I think that's tells you that no, that's 728 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 4: what we would do is question of me. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 729 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 4: Because it's a structure where you're in the high pressure 730 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 4: situation where you're not supposed to ask questions and you're 731 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 4: not supposed to, but we kind of came up with 732 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 4: a way of showing you that it's okay to fuck up. 733 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 4: And you know, you ask a dumb there's no such 734 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 4: thing as a dumb We're going to laugh at you. 735 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 4: Avoid the embarrassment by just asking a question when a 736 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 4: question should be asked, and don't get in a canoe 737 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 4: or kayak and let yourself hit the bottom of the river. 738 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: Next time I'm alive again, we meet Frankie Mollinix, who's 739 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: near death experience in the Australian Pacific transformed their outlook 740 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: on life and self sufficiency. 741 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 6: I just realized I being sucked down the coastline and 742 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 6: all I can see is an outcropping of rocks, and 743 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 6: then I just see ocean. Every moment feels magnified. I 744 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 6: can feel my body getting more and more tired, and 745 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 6: I think it's that pattern too, of like you have 746 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 6: to figure it out. 747 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 2: Don't let anybody see you crack. 748 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 6: Needing help and not being able to refuse it showed 749 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 6: me what it is to be human. 750 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent Die, 751 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,320 Speaker 1: Nicholas Dukoski and Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovett. Additional 752 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: music by Alexander Rodriguez. Our executive producers are Matthew Frederick 753 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for additional 754 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: production support. Our studio in engineers A Rima L. K 755 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: Ali and Nomes Griffin Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhartslovitchka, 756 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: Brent Die and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben love It 757 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: and Alexander Rodriguez. I'm your host, Dan Bush. Thank you 758 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: to Maggie Sleppion for sharing her amazing story. Maggie is 759 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,839 Speaker 1: a full time freelance writer based in Montana. For more 760 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: information about Maggie, go to Maggie Sleepion dot com. Alive 761 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: Again is a production of I Art Radio and Psychopia Pictures. 762 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: If you have a transformative near death experience to share, 763 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear your story. Please email us at 764 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: Alive Again Project at gmail dot com. That's a l 765 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: I v e A g A I N p R 766 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: O j E c t at gmail dot com.