Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening and enjoy the podcast. Rockburn is a Board
Speaker 1: certified developmental behavioral pediatrician who is an Assistant professor of
Speaker 1: pediatrics at New York Medical College. He's a consultant for
Speaker 1: reach Out and Read, a national organization promoting child development
Speaker 1: and literacy, and is a frequent lecturer for parents, teachers,
Speaker 1: and professionals on topics related to child development, including autism,
Speaker 1: spectrum disorders, ADHD, parenting, and mindfulness. Doctor Bird's books include
Speaker 1: The Family ADHD Solution and Mindful Parenting for ADHD. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much for being on the show, Mark, Oh, thank
Speaker 1: you for inviting me. It's really great to have such
Speaker 1: an expert on a specific goaring disability and on multiple
Speaker 1: specific going disabilities to really unpack lots of these things
Speaker 1: that affect lots and lots of children and adults. So
Speaker 1: what are the numbers right now in terms of ADHD.
Speaker 1: How many people are diagnosed with ADHD, how many kids,
Speaker 1: how many people in society in general? Well, the you know,
Speaker 1: the the number in kids is somewhere around one and fifteen,
Speaker 1: I think is the best way of simplifying it. You know,
Speaker 1: that's going to vary a little bit from study to study,
Speaker 1: although interestingly it varies less around the world than people
Speaker 1: often describe it. So when you actually look at real
Speaker 1: studies of ADHD, that's a pretty consistent rate. So you know,
Speaker 1: depending on the studies, it's somewhere between five and ten percent,
Speaker 1: which you know obviously comes to a fairly large number
Speaker 1: of children. And then when you look at the fact
Speaker 1: that only about half of those children outgrow ADHD, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a fairly large number of adults who go on
Speaker 1: to have ADHD as well. Right, And what are the numbers?
Speaker 1: How does they compare to numbers for some other wearing disabilities,
Speaker 1: such as like dyslexia and autism. Is it m Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's much higher than some of the other conditions. So
Speaker 1: for example autism, you know, the estimate obviously keeps changing,
Speaker 1: but most people say it's around one and eighty right now,
Speaker 1: or a little maybe a little lower than that. But
Speaker 1: you know, ADHD is an extremely common disorder of child development,
Speaker 1: right because most children have their executive globes aren't fully developed,
Speaker 1: so right, So, well, what you're looking at with ADHD
Speaker 1: basically is and that's actually a fundamental change in how
Speaker 1: we look at it that happened in the sort of
Speaker 1: latest rewriting of the diagnostic manual around ADHD is now
Speaker 1: classified really as a neurodevelopmental disorder, meaning that practically speaking,
Speaker 1: for most parents and providers working with it, the best
Speaker 1: way to look at it is kind of like a
Speaker 1: developmental delay of what you alluded to, so that, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a wide range of typical development and
Speaker 1: in any skill set, you know, so we can look
Speaker 1: at typical development of language, we can look at typical
Speaker 1: development of social skills, and really for ADHD, ADHD is
Speaker 1: kind of outgrown its name, which is what you're looking
Speaker 1: at is a developmental disorder of a skill set called
Speaker 1: executive function, which practically speaking are really all of our
Speaker 1: life management skills, and ADHD potentially can impact almost any
Speaker 1: aspect of these cognitibilities. It's not the same in every person.
Speaker 1: So children who have ADHD or adults who go on
Speaker 1: to have ADHD. Really the core issue is one of
Speaker 1: being behind in these very vital skills for you know,
Speaker 1: everything from focus in the classroom, which is I think
Speaker 1: often the stereotype of ADHD, or one stereotype of ADHD
Speaker 1: too much more subtle things like the fact that ADHD
Speaker 1: has been linked to overweight and obesity because it has
Speaker 1: to do with impulsity and self control. I think it's
Speaker 1: many aspects of it. It's self monitoring, it's impulsiveness, it's
Speaker 1: distracted eating one thing. You know, if we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about ADHD, you have to bring up the stress.
Speaker 1: You know, there's so many aspects of how ADHD potentially
Speaker 1: links with food and eating, and you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I often feel like the discussion with ADHD gets caught
Speaker 1: up in you know, people worrying, you know, about the
Speaker 1: label or worrying about the treatments, when really the primary
Speaker 1: reason I think to even begin to discuss ADHD is
Speaker 1: so you can have better awareness of what's affecting a
Speaker 1: particular child or affecting a particular adult. You can't begin
Speaker 1: to address things differently until you're aware of what's really
Speaker 1: going on. That's a really good point and you know,
Speaker 1: we do get hung up a lot with the labels
Speaker 1: like do I really have ADHD or do I have something?
Speaker 1: Do you think a lot of people are misdiagnosed? It
Speaker 1: depends on where you look. So what it means to
Speaker 1: be misdiagnosed is basically that lots of different things in
Speaker 1: life can cause distractability and disorganization. And you know, all
Speaker 1: sorts of academic and behavioral issues and also even other
Speaker 1: developmental disorders or other mental health conditions can mimic ADHD.
Speaker 1: So if you're really really anxious, you you can have
Speaker 1: a hard time focusing, and when you have a really
Speaker 1: severe reading disability, it's going to be very hard to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the classroom. So you know, many, many
Speaker 1: different things can contribute to misdiagnosis of ADHD. And when
Speaker 1: you look at it, you know, there are some studies
Speaker 1: quoting crazy numbers like I think, I think, if I
Speaker 1: remember right, someplace is down in the southern United States,
Speaker 1: the diagnostic grade is almost one in five. Whoa which
Speaker 1: is you know? Which is crazy? I mean clearly, you know,
Speaker 1: unless something really strange New York City, Oh no, no,
Speaker 1: it down south? And if I remember right, but I
Speaker 1: think there's really vital to separate two concepts. When you
Speaker 1: start talking about the potential of overdiagnosis in ADHD. You know,
Speaker 1: there's this societal level discussion of why is this happening
Speaker 1: and what can we do about it? Because clearly, you know,
Speaker 1: we have to try to tease out, well, what's going
Speaker 1: on here? Why why is overdiagnosis happening in these particular
Speaker 1: parts of the country. But the really core concept is
Speaker 1: I think they sometimes get kind of conflated and mixed
Speaker 1: up with each other. Is the fact that there can
Speaker 1: be over diagnosis or the fact that there can be
Speaker 1: misdiagnosis doesn't mean anything for somebody who really has it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a detail that often gets lost
Speaker 1: because people are afraid that they're the one being misdiagnosed,
Speaker 1: or they think or they dismiss the entire concept of ADHD,
Speaker 1: you know, so they just feel like, oh, this whole
Speaker 1: thing must not be real because of overdiagnosis goes on
Speaker 1: when you know, we know pretty much beyond a shadows
Speaker 1: a doubt that ADHD is real. You know, the genetics
Speaker 1: of ADHD are almost as strong as the genetics of height.
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of you know, tracing it through
Speaker 1: through families. So, you know, what we really need to
Speaker 1: sort out is how to separate those two discussions. On
Speaker 1: the one level, look at what are things that are
Speaker 1: leading to misdiagnosis or overdiagnosis or equally important, how do
Speaker 1: we help providers make more accurate diagnosis? And then the
Speaker 1: flip side of it is, you know, separating out the
Speaker 1: society level question almost like the public health issue of it.
Speaker 1: Once we really do feel like somebody has ADHD, you know,
Speaker 1: what are the most evidence based practical things we can
Speaker 1: do to help them overcome these differences in executive function?
Speaker 1: But I feel like so often the public level discussion
Speaker 1: sort of mixes the two issues often too. One I
Speaker 1: really want to define, like one of the major, most
Speaker 1: primary characteristics of these sum things are and what's the
Speaker 1: difference between ADHD and ADD Do people still make that distinction? Great?
Speaker 1: Thank you, And that's a great question. It is probably
Speaker 1: where we should should have started, I know, so I
Speaker 1: had thought about it either though, So I'll start with
Speaker 1: the simpler question, which is that in the last couple
Speaker 1: of versions of the sort of national standards for diagnosis,
Speaker 1: ADD was combined with ADHD. So the terminology we now
Speaker 1: use is that there are ADHD with different predominance of symptoms.
Speaker 1: You know, ADHD with predominantly in intentive symptoms, ADHD with
Speaker 1: predominantly hyperactive impulsive symptoms, or a combined type. But because
Speaker 1: the parts of the brain responsible for ADHD evolved you're
Speaker 1: almost thirty, the symptoms themselves change over time. So the
Speaker 1: far more important thing than the exact symptoms going on
Speaker 1: or the exact you know, is it an attention or
Speaker 1: is it hyperactivity, is really just you know, is ADHD
Speaker 1: going on, because as children mature, their symptoms often change.
Speaker 1: When you look at what it means to have ADHD,
Speaker 1: there's really kind of two broad concepts I think that
Speaker 1: are important. You know, from a strict diagnostic point of view,
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is use the traditional kind
Speaker 1: of eighteen symptom checklist, meaning there are nine symptoms having
Speaker 1: to do with inattention, like distractability and difficulty following finishing
Speaker 1: tasks and forgetfulness and things like that that are more internal.
Speaker 1: And then there's a hyperactive impulsive list of symptoms, which
Speaker 1: are often again a stereotype of ADHD, which is the fidgeting,
Speaker 1: the impulsiveness, the elevated activity level, and you know your
Speaker 1: base looking to confirm that that pattern of symptoms is
Speaker 1: going on in multiple settings and over time. But I
Speaker 1: think a simpler way of looking at it is to
Speaker 1: say that you know, in spite of all the medical
Speaker 1: research around ADHD, we don't have a diagnostic test for it.
Speaker 1: So what you're really trying to do is just prove
Speaker 1: to yourself that this is a internal trait. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a neurologic trait that that we can show through.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes observation over time, sometimes through gathering a
Speaker 1: lot of history and direct observation is persistent over time
Speaker 1: is showing up and so it's not just the developmental
Speaker 1: stage as someone goes out of it's persistent in different settings.
Speaker 1: So it's not just because you know, school is challenging
Speaker 1: or something's going on at home, although that can be
Speaker 1: a very nuanced one because depending on the demand being
Speaker 1: put on somebody, they're going to show up really differently.
Speaker 1: The symptoms aren't. It's not going to be an identical description,
Speaker 1: but we're looking for some consistency across settings, like you
Speaker 1: alluded to, before you know, a good diagnosis. The next
Speaker 1: step is looking at what else might be mimicking at
Speaker 1: So before we jumped the conclusion that it's ADHD, we
Speaker 1: have to look at you know, could it be something
Speaker 1: else fooling us? For instance, you could be in a
Speaker 1: really boring environment, right right, So one of the one
Speaker 1: if you're just like, what if your life is really
Speaker 1: suck boring? Like, yeah, I mean, I hope you would
Speaker 1: tease that out. But that is one of the things
Speaker 1: that's on the list to me is actually, what I'm
Speaker 1: just going to say, is developmentally typical is one of
Speaker 1: the things that you know, somebody comes in and somebody
Speaker 1: might I mean. One of my favorite sort of bodies
Speaker 1: of research recently is Steve Hinshaw's research looking at misdiagnosis
Speaker 1: of ADHD, particularly and over the academic kindergartens. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: because kindergarteners aren't supposed to be doing a lot of academics.
Speaker 1: Yet if you create this sort of artificially intense academic
Speaker 1: environment for kids who aren't developmentally ready for it, a
Speaker 1: lot of them aren't going to be able to attend
Speaker 1: or they're going to start misbehaving, and that can lead
Speaker 1: to misdiagnosis of ADHD. So on that long list of
Speaker 1: things you have to consider when someone comes in with
Speaker 1: a complaint of could this be ADHD? As well, is
Speaker 1: what's going on actually pretty typical? Or another way on
Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum, to look at the
Speaker 1: age range, I shouldn't say the spectrum the age raam
Speaker 1: should look at is you know, everybody nowadays feels pretty
Speaker 1: distracted and pulled out to different ways. You know, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have ADHD. And then really the most
Speaker 1: important reason to even talk about diagnosis is that the
Speaker 1: last step to diagnosing ADHD is to say that these
Speaker 1: symptoms are occurring to the point where you're impairing your
Speaker 1: own life in some way. So, so lots of people
Speaker 1: are kind of distractable, lots of people can be disorganized, impulsive.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, human nature. It's the fun
Speaker 1: of life is that we're also different. But to even
Speaker 1: discuss whether someone might have ADHD, they have to cross
Speaker 1: the line to where they're impairing their life in some
Speaker 1: way in relationships. Well, yeah, that you can't get the
Speaker 1: label officially unless it's impairing your life, correct, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of know that. So I didn't know that,
Speaker 1: And that's actually really interesting because lots of people might
Speaker 1: feel as though they have ADHD, but it's just not
Speaker 1: really impacting their life in a detrimental way. Correct, That's
Speaker 1: exactly it. When you see people who get I mean
Speaker 1: to me, well, I mean it isn't fair to them either,
Speaker 1: but it's a nuanced thing. I shouldn't make quick statements
Speaker 1: like this. But in general, when yeah, when you see
Speaker 1: someone who says, you know, who implies like, oh, I
Speaker 1: have ADHD, but but you know, but I overcame it,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of true whatever, you know, the issue is,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's totally possible they did. But the
Speaker 1: other thing you always have to think about is like,
Speaker 1: if you really truly have a diagnosis of ADHD, then
Speaker 1: somebody has documented that it's impairing your life significantly. See,
Speaker 1: and that can be very you know, in your face,
Speaker 1: and you know, really obvious stuff like failing school or
Speaker 1: getting in trouble you know, socially, behaviorally, and it can
Speaker 1: be really really subtle stuff, which is to say that,
Speaker 1: you know what we haven't talked to you about yet.
Speaker 1: But it's really a vital concept in ADHD is that
Speaker 1: is what executive function is, which is where we started
Speaker 1: you know, it is your ability to just manage day
Speaker 1: to day, so that one of the more subtle impairments
Speaker 1: that's common with ADHD is just the internal stress and
Speaker 1: anxiety of not having a strong skill set that just
Speaker 1: helps you, you know, do what you need to do
Speaker 1: every day, and that's clearly a really important skill set.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some potential upsides of ADHD, and maybe
Speaker 1: I know that you have a lot of really interesting
Speaker 1: ways of thinking about this, because in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: what you might see is that it's someone has ADHD,
Speaker 1: but they also have other characteristics that are very positive,
Speaker 1: that are very helpful with creativity, with other things. And
Speaker 1: then the question is it really the ADHD that's helping
Speaker 1: or maybe they just have ADHD and these other things
Speaker 1: and if they train their executive function, they'd be even
Speaker 1: better at these other things. Right, I'm of a very
Speaker 1: open mind and trying to figure out and disentangle all this.
Speaker 1: I'd love to get some of your thoughts because there's
Speaker 1: a lot of talk in the gifted education literature gifted
Speaker 1: kids with ADHD and how a lot of them might
Speaker 1: get misdiagnosed because they are really bored because the work
Speaker 1: isn't challenging enough, right, and they get misdiagnosed as having ADHD.
Speaker 1: So there's various things to unpack here. I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. Yeah, well, I think it's important, you know,
Speaker 1: whenever we can't to try to actually separate those threads
Speaker 1: a little bit in that because and this just comes
Speaker 1: a lot from my experience working with families. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you start tying together ADHD too closely with the
Speaker 1: ADHD part too closely with everything else, it can almost
Speaker 1: like intimidate people when it comes to just even the
Speaker 1: non medical interventions because you don't want to even behaviorally
Speaker 1: address something that's you know, it's supposedly a positive. So
Speaker 1: I think the most important thing again to me, is
Speaker 1: to recognize that, you know, whenever you're working with someone
Speaker 1: who's struggling in any area of life, we need to
Speaker 1: find a way to build a larger focus on what's
Speaker 1: going well and help them develop their talents and skills,
Speaker 1: you know, separate from whatever is causing that difficulty, so
Speaker 1: that that's like the like a foundational concept that you
Speaker 1: know that you need to start from always, so that
Speaker 1: if you have someone with ADHD who's massively creative. You
Speaker 1: know clearly you don't want to do anything that's going
Speaker 1: to mess with the creativity. And yet, in terms of
Speaker 1: like why even discuss ADHD, it's because you know, the
Speaker 1: ADHD diagnosis part directly involves impairment in some way. And
Speaker 1: it's a perfect example. And when I come across frequently,
Speaker 1: I think I just saw someone this week where this
Speaker 1: discussion came up, the high school senior. I actually don't
Speaker 1: even know if he has ADHD yet, but one of
Speaker 1: the things his parents were concerned about is they feel
Speaker 1: like he's brilliantly artistic and he's never finished in our project.
Speaker 1: And that is so commonly what ADHD can look like,
Speaker 1: in that you are massively creative, you have all these
Speaker 1: wonderful things you can be doing, and yet because executive
Speaker 1: functions is what's required to plan and organize and finish
Speaker 1: what you start and learn from mistakes and all these
Speaker 1: other skills that even artists rely on, you know, you
Speaker 1: end up with someone who has the potential, even in
Speaker 1: the art world, to do a wondrous thing, but can't
Speaker 1: get there because their executive function is getting. The way
Speaker 1: you know their ADHD is getting is a synonym to
Speaker 1: me but practically speaking, but you know, their ADHD is
Speaker 1: getting in the way. So instead of I think assuming
Speaker 1: it's the ADHD, that's the positive, because that sort of
Speaker 1: implies like, well, we don't want to touch this at all.
Speaker 1: I think you you know, it's just important to be
Speaker 1: more nuanced and say like, well, whatever we're going to
Speaker 1: call all this, you know what part of ADHD is
Speaker 1: causing me? You know, this this hurdle that I can't
Speaker 1: get past, and what can we do about it? And
Speaker 1: I think that's really the core point to me. So
Speaker 1: I think that is a core point. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate your writings and preparing this for
Speaker 1: this interview. I you know, reading some of your work
Speaker 1: the way you think about this stuff helps me unpack
Speaker 1: and even think about my own writings maybe in a
Speaker 1: different way. I've written, as you know, I've written articles
Speaker 1: about the potential creative gifts of ADHD. And when I
Speaker 1: say that, what I'm really saying is just like you
Speaker 1: use executive function as a synonym for in a way
Speaker 1: synonym for ADHD, I view kind of like daydreaming as
Speaker 1: the synonym as well, Like you know, as someone who
Speaker 1: you know us does a lot of daydreaming, that's all
Speaker 1: over the place. But there's no reason why a person
Speaker 1: can't have characteristics of ADHD without having ADHD. And maybe
Speaker 1: that's what I really need to entangle. Maybe that's what
Speaker 1: would be really helpful here, is to you know, I
Speaker 1: talk about these characteristics that tend to give the diagnostic label,
Speaker 1: but I'm not really talking about ADHD because ADHD and
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that now by the way, so thank you.
Speaker 1: What I'm really talking about are are some of those
Speaker 1: prominent characteristics such as mind wandering and you know, reduced
Speaker 1: executive functioning, And because the creativity literature does show that
Speaker 1: reduce executive function is conducive to divergent thinking certain part
Speaker 1: parts of the creative cycle. So yeah, I just wanted
Speaker 1: to open that discussion with you because I think maybe
Speaker 1: that's really I'm talking What I'm talking about are just
Speaker 1: these characteristics, but ADHD really is something that needs to
Speaker 1: like you said, it needs to impair some aspects of
Speaker 1: your general life functioning really to get that label. So
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, that's a I think that's a
Speaker 1: fascinating way of looking at it, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: that's worth some potential exploration I don't even know if
Speaker 1: someone is, you know, I'm trying to think about kind
Speaker 1: of cress studies looking at it the way the way
Speaker 1: you just described it. But I think it is potentially
Speaker 1: true that you know that. Like many things, I think
Speaker 1: there's other more physical traits where this is true too,
Speaker 1: of like you know, having some of it could have
Speaker 1: some benefit and having to having too much of it
Speaker 1: no longer does the highly true exactly. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of things in life that work that way. And what
Speaker 1: you're talking about around creativity might be that you know,
Speaker 1: some is great. It allows for the types of thinking
Speaker 1: you're talking about, and you know, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: when you again, when you pile too much of it on,
Speaker 1: it passed the point of utility anymore. Absolutely, they actually
Speaker 1: have done studies showing you with schizotypy, which is a
Speaker 1: mild reform personality variation of schizophrenia. You know, if you
Speaker 1: have one or two indicators, it really is an inverted
Speaker 1: U shaped curve, like if one or two indicators of schizotiphy,
Speaker 1: it actually increases your creative productivity. But then three and
Speaker 1: four and you see a spread very steep. It's actually
Speaker 1: there's actually a cliff model of this. I mean, one
Speaker 1: of the things your questions you're raising that I'd be
Speaker 1: interested to, you know, see looked at too though, is
Speaker 1: that you know, on the one hand, daydreaming and mind
Speaker 1: wandering has been linked with creativity, and on the other hand,
Speaker 1: of the ADHD literature, it's also been shown to happen
Speaker 1: at very unproductive times, often so that they've done research
Speaker 1: looking at you know, people who are being motivated like
Speaker 1: by money. You know, you complete more of this task,
Speaker 1: you learn more, and you can still see their mind
Speaker 1: dropping into you know, daydreaming mode anyway. You know, in
Speaker 1: spite of versus a typical population without ADHD who you
Speaker 1: can see that are motivated for money and their frontal lobes,
Speaker 1: the part of the brain responsible for executive function just
Speaker 1: kind of locks in and sustains itself for the task.
Speaker 1: So you know, you can so that you know, there's
Speaker 1: just like you're saying that there may be times where
Speaker 1: you know, I think this is a whole other discussion.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things we're just getting lost
Speaker 1: in our world of you know, being able to quickly
Speaker 1: engage our brain and mindlessness all the time is going
Speaker 1: to be daydreaming and creativity, because that's where it's not
Speaker 1: just creative by the way, I don't think, because it's
Speaker 1: important to realize that even for people who don't consider
Speaker 1: themselves artists, you're also talking about creative problem solving, you know,
Speaker 1: which are which which for all of us is important
Speaker 1: in day to day life and when we're you know,
Speaker 1: when we're not doing letting our minds you know, go
Speaker 1: into that sort of daydreaming not quite fixed on anything
Speaker 1: mode because we're playing candy Crash constantly, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's interesting to one, you know, to start thinking, like,
Speaker 1: what are we missing out on there? No, it's a
Speaker 1: really great, really great point. You said, there's a biological
Speaker 1: component us there. Certainly there's also an environmental component in
Speaker 1: the sense that you know that there are certain environments
Speaker 1: that can make it worse or better. Are there people
Speaker 1: that like that actually you know, have ADHD, like have
Speaker 1: diagnosed and then they go into an environment where they
Speaker 1: structure their entire lives like an artist maybe, or like
Speaker 1: they structure their entire lives in a way that it
Speaker 1: just no longer is a problem for them, and then
Speaker 1: therefore they don't really what do they have? Then then
Speaker 1: they're just creative. Well, I mean, that's a nuanced question,
Speaker 1: but it comes back to what we're saying before. So
Speaker 1: I think there's kind of two sides to that coin.
Speaker 1: On one side of it, really one of the core
Speaker 1: concepts and working with ADHD and executive function is Russell
Speaker 1: Barkley's concept that he calls externalizing the system, which basically means,
Speaker 1: you know, creating the structure around you that will support
Speaker 1: the parts of organization and planning and everything else that
Speaker 1: are challenging for you. So on the one hand, you know,
Speaker 1: absolutely part of living well with ADHD means, you know,
Speaker 1: creating the structure and lifestyle that helps support you in
Speaker 1: your in your daily living. You know. The flip side
Speaker 1: of that comes back to still that you don't really
Speaker 1: have a diagnosis of ADHD. You know, if you don't
Speaker 1: have if we can't define where the impairment is, And
Speaker 1: I think that just becomes a very nuanced discussion, like
Speaker 1: if you I don't know, you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: where you draw that cut off point. Just honestly, the
Speaker 1: bottom line is someone's doing well in the label doesn't
Speaker 1: matter at that point. But I think you know, you
Speaker 1: might argue that if it's requiring that much structure to
Speaker 1: in essence live with your executive function ADHD. You probably
Speaker 1: still have the diagnosis. You're just doing a good job
Speaker 1: managing it. You know. It's not that the ADHD has
Speaker 1: gone away. It's that you're just doing a particularly good
Speaker 1: job of well. I don't even like using the word good.
Speaker 1: That's very judgmental. It doesn't mean that anybody else is instuent.
Speaker 1: But that's a I'm glad I caught myself there. It's
Speaker 1: not about good or bad at all. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like you've been fortunate enough to come up with a
Speaker 1: plan that works for you. Because there's plenty of people
Speaker 1: who are doing a great job trying to manage the
Speaker 1: around ADHD, but they're still not getting on top of it.
Speaker 1: So so and I do think, you know, I'm kind
Speaker 1: of glad I caught myself on that because it's a
Speaker 1: really important language around ADHD that I just you know,
Speaker 1: that needs to be dropped. I mean, it isn't anybody's fault. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1: We talked about some common symptoms of ADHD, but in
Speaker 1: your book you talk about how they these symptoms they
Speaker 1: extend beyond inattention interactivity. You mostly focus on inattention, right,
Speaker 1: but where are the other things? So that's thank you
Speaker 1: for coming back to that. And I think at one
Speaker 1: point earlier I said I wanted to come back to that.
Speaker 1: You know, when you look at ADHD as a difference
Speaker 1: in executive function, then you can really appreciate the broader
Speaker 1: umbrella of stuff that it impacts. And one thing I
Speaker 1: think that's vital for anyone living with ADHD too, is
Speaker 1: when you hear words like executive function and you know whatever,
Speaker 1: other like you know, neurologic terms, get to turn around
Speaker 1: is you really want to make them practical because they're
Speaker 1: not really useful otherwise. So when you look at executive function,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just as easy to you know, it's
Speaker 1: like life management skills. And when you look at it
Speaker 1: from that umbrella, it starts with attention and monitoring your
Speaker 1: own actions, which is kind of the ADHD part, and
Speaker 1: then the rest of it the way I typically describe
Speaker 1: it as task management, which is organizing, planning, prioritizing, keeping
Speaker 1: track of time, information management, which is kind of like
Speaker 1: the realm on a computer. It's like holding on to
Speaker 1: and organizing your ideas in your head. And that's a
Speaker 1: that's a that's just a huge one ADHD. So it's
Speaker 1: where you keep track of it to do list if
Speaker 1: you haven't write it down. It's where you organize your thoughts.
Speaker 1: Like even as you're sitting here listening to me and
Speaker 1: you're trying to gather information for me and coordinate with
Speaker 1: what you already know and decide what you're going to
Speaker 1: say next, that's all information management. So information management often
Speaker 1: off ex communication often makes learning stressful if the classroom
Speaker 1: is moving out a pace quicker than you can hold
Speaker 1: on to that information. So information management is vital. It
Speaker 1: also has to do with a lot of skills. Like
Speaker 1: writing is very executive function dependent. So you know a
Speaker 1: large number of kids and adults of ADASHU struggle at
Speaker 1: narrative writing if they don't get support. So again, if
Speaker 1: you understand executive function, you can proactively build that support
Speaker 1: into their education. There's an emotional component of executive functions,
Speaker 1: like self regulation. Yeah, and that emotional component like several
Speaker 1: decades ago that was like actually part of the diagnosis.
Speaker 1: And I think it's just important to always recognize, like
Speaker 1: when you know, when you're trying to help someone get
Speaker 1: a handle on things. I think it's sometimes helpful to
Speaker 1: realize that it's not like a whole bunch of different
Speaker 1: things going on. You know. The emotional reactivity click to frustrate,
Speaker 1: equip to yell, quick to get upset, quick to shut
Speaker 1: down is another component of executive function. It's another component
Speaker 1: of ADHD. And then there's a really nuanced one. It's
Speaker 1: hard to you know, from the outside, it can be
Speaker 1: really hard to almost hard to accept or hard to
Speaker 1: see what's going on at least, which is effort management,
Speaker 1: which is the ability like I alluded to in that
Speaker 1: study about to sustain attention when you're motivated, you know,
Speaker 1: the ability to sustain effort over time and to do
Speaker 1: it efficiently as part of executive function. That's also grit.
Speaker 1: It's related to all these terms. I think it's it's
Speaker 1: a great you know, you talk about grit and resilience
Speaker 1: and mindset and all these different terms. There's an awful
Speaker 1: lot of overlap between all these terms where the common
Speaker 1: thread you know, and the same studies have happened, like
Speaker 1: the Marshmowt study around executive function. You know, all these
Speaker 1: different studies point to these core cognitive traits that help
Speaker 1: us just you know, deal with the fact that life's challenging,
Speaker 1: you know, and then just to help us persist and
Speaker 1: take care of ourselves and solve problems. Any many terms
Speaker 1: that are really yeah, they overlap a lot and what
Speaker 1: they're in what they're referring to. But even on like
Speaker 1: Angelo duck Rose script Scale, because I work with her
Speaker 1: a little bit, and yeah, you know, we administer the
Speaker 1: scrit scale. I mean some of as items are literally
Speaker 1: like the reverse coded are ADHD. Like there are things
Speaker 1: like I maintain my interests over time. You know, it's
Speaker 1: just interesting. But that's why ADHD is so important to
Speaker 1: do something about, because you're right, ADHD. When you look
Speaker 1: at what ADHD causes in many ways, it's the mirror
Speaker 1: image of a lot of what the research is showing
Speaker 1: helps people survive and to thrive exactly. So you're absolutely correct. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely correct. So for any of that overall, like
Speaker 1: for any of those areas of executive function, the most
Speaker 1: important thing I think, like if you're listening, if you're
Speaker 1: coming across it for the first time, listening to this
Speaker 1: or somewhere else, is to try to get enough information
Speaker 1: so they're just gonna make practical use of it. So
Speaker 1: you know, some of the examples I use a lot
Speaker 1: are like, you know, part of attention management is being distractable,
Speaker 1: but part of attention management is being able to transition
Speaker 1: your attention. So that if you're living with someone a
Speaker 1: child or a spouse even who tends to hyper focus
Speaker 1: and get really sucked into things, and then you try
Speaker 1: to talk to them while they're hyper focused, you know
Speaker 1: you're not going to get a lot of compliance. They're
Speaker 1: not going to listen to you, and honestly they're not
Speaker 1: being difficult, you know, they just can't shift attention. So
Speaker 1: if you can understand that aspect of executive function, you know,
Speaker 1: the solution is a much more practical one, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, they're just not somebody because of their attention
Speaker 1: shifting issues who probably can have a conversation while they're
Speaker 1: also you know, playing a video game or really engage
Speaker 1: in newspaper or something. So you know, again, if you
Speaker 1: can understand that, So that's an example of how if
Speaker 1: you can understand executive function, Like when I'm working with
Speaker 1: parents that's often labeled as oppositional behavior. You know, if
Speaker 1: he's playing his video game and I said we had
Speaker 1: to go, and when I came back in ten minutes.
Speaker 1: He was still playing his video game. Certainly some kids
Speaker 1: can choose to be oppositional, but an awful lot of
Speaker 1: the time with ADHD, what actually happened was I said
Speaker 1: we got to go into and it's while he was
Speaker 1: playing his video game, and he couldn't shift attention to
Speaker 1: even register the question. Really, maybe he'd grunted and say
Speaker 1: oh huh, but he didn't really register the information didn't
Speaker 1: get in. Switching issue is also prominent in autism. It
Speaker 1: is although one of the subtlety's there is about half
Speaker 1: of kids with autism could be diagnosed with ADHD. And
Speaker 1: this is where, you know, we could probably talk all
Speaker 1: night about. Yeah. While the rule of most of the
Speaker 1: disorders of child development, you know, as they've done more
Speaker 1: and more research, is that most of them have a
Speaker 1: lot of comorbidity, meaning again for someone not familiar with
Speaker 1: the term, that you know, when one thing happens, there's
Speaker 1: almost always something else going on too. That's actually an
Speaker 1: important concept around ADHD in particular because it means that
Speaker 1: you can't really do a good ADHD evaluation. I use
Speaker 1: the word good there intentionally that time you herely do
Speaker 1: a quality ADHD evaluation without the screening for the co morbidity,
Speaker 1: because about two thirds of the kids have something else
Speaker 1: going on. But it's also why ADHD isn't called executive
Speaker 1: function deficit disorder at this point because basically, it really
Speaker 1: isn't clear yet whether you know, there are other conditions
Speaker 1: that have differences in executive function. For sure, there's there's
Speaker 1: plenty of them, you know, and at least some of
Speaker 1: those situations, it's really that they have autism and the
Speaker 1: DHD or learning disability and ADHD, but it's still kind
Speaker 1: of fuzzy whether some of them can have you know,
Speaker 1: learning disability and executive function differences, but they don't have ADHD. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's why that's why the research that you know,
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the many reasons why in spite
Speaker 1: of the fact that practically speaking, we should call ADHD
Speaker 1: and executive function definicit disorder, or at least think of
Speaker 1: it that way, you know, the label the name actually
Speaker 1: hasn't changed yet, right. I always found it interesting that
Speaker 1: there's so many psychopaths, a lot of them have ADHD,
Speaker 1: like a very high proportion, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know about that one in particular, honestly, but
Speaker 1: it sort of evolves around the executive issues I imagine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean, I don't. Again, I
Speaker 1: can't draw that line for you. I'm not sure that
Speaker 1: about that research, but in general, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's two things looking at You're looking at the direct
Speaker 1: impact of what executive function does any daily life, and
Speaker 1: then you're looking at the fact of what, you know,
Speaker 1: the stress that causes over our lifetime. You know, you
Speaker 1: get to Quoterus Barkley, he Russ's best one line description
Speaker 1: of of ADHD is probably it's not a disorder of
Speaker 1: not knowing what to do, to disorder of not doing
Speaker 1: what you know. You know, you you're most of the
Speaker 1: time know exactly what it is you want to be
Speaker 1: doing next, you know, or what you should be doing
Speaker 1: in life, or what you should be planning for what
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of shoulding. When I was
Speaker 1: working in the mindfulness class, somebody once said, I really
Speaker 1: just have to stop shooting on myself so much. You know,
Speaker 1: you just get me cycled that like, well, I should
Speaker 1: know that, I should know better, and I should have
Speaker 1: done this better, and I could A lot of it
Speaker 1: that's do with prioritization, and I think, you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of neuroscience, not only the executive network is important
Speaker 1: in understanding ADHD, but I would also argue the salience network,
Speaker 1: which is not as well understood, but has to do
Speaker 1: with what tagging information is relevant and irrelevant passing the
Speaker 1: baton to other networks for intentional process. You know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like everything's like equal valiance of interesting. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's an important point too, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're really going to get seriously into
Speaker 1: the research, I mean, the concept of the front part
Speaker 1: of the brain and executive function being the core of
Speaker 1: ADHD is practical, but like you just said that, the
Speaker 1: research is far more complicated because that part of your
Speaker 1: brain really integrates with most of the rest of your brains,
Speaker 1: and anywhere that integrates with is potentially affected by the
Speaker 1: fact that they're you know, they're they're coordinating for each other.
Speaker 1: So when you look at the broader being brain research,
Speaker 1: there's there's a whole lot of parts of the brain
Speaker 1: that have been implicated with ADHD. So so absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a this is a useful model we'll be
Speaker 1: talking about because I think in day to day life.
Speaker 1: It's helpful because it is kind of the foundation of
Speaker 1: the research, but the nuances of the research are really,
Speaker 1: you know, very subtle and fascinating. Subtle and yeah, utterly
Speaker 1: fascinating because you do you do see that people in ADHD,
Speaker 1: right that they're like they're they're tagging lots of things
Speaker 1: that they should be prioritizing, and it makes it very
Speaker 1: overwhelming to decide and so you kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: you get disorganized because I'm paralyzed. It can be paralyzed. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: What are some research Are there actually research proven practices
Speaker 1: or techniques that increase academic and social success for people
Speaker 1: with ADHD? And how far are we in the science
Speaker 1: with finding some interventions that actually really do a nice
Speaker 1: job working helping We are actually pretty far along in
Speaker 1: the science what helps with ADHD. And I think the
Speaker 1: you know, there's a core concept that I know one
Speaker 1: thing really you know, there is no like one cookie cutter,
Speaker 1: single thing that helps ADHD. What we have are a
Speaker 1: lot of tools to choose from an individualized care around
Speaker 1: that have been proven to be successful. And the way
Speaker 1: I typically lay that out for for people I'm working
Speaker 1: with lately is that there are kind of three foundational
Speaker 1: areas of intervention that have been shown you know, most
Speaker 1: likely to make a difference and any for any individual.
Speaker 1: I mean, you might choose one of them, you might
Speaker 1: choose all three. Those are you know, a law long
Speaker 1: list of evidence based educational supports that help with ADHD.
Speaker 1: The core concepts are basically, first of all, that you know,
Speaker 1: motivation comes from you know, positive feedback and success, but
Speaker 1: only if they're actually valid. So you have to set
Speaker 1: up an environment where someone who's actually being successful so
Speaker 1: that they can, you know, so that there's a behavioral
Speaker 1: side of it all is how do you make that happen?
Speaker 1: A lot of which ties into the second one, which
Speaker 1: is you know, as a kind of thought exercise. I
Speaker 1: think the core concept is you're working with a student
Speaker 1: who has a development of the land self management skills,
Speaker 1: and kind of the one line, a great one line
Speaker 1: description of that is simply something like, you know, forgetfulness
Speaker 1: is an ADHD symptom. Right, you know, if you continually
Speaker 1: punish someone for being forgetful who has ADHD, you're in
Speaker 1: essence punishing them for having a disability. You know, so
Speaker 1: you need to you know, once it's established itself as
Speaker 1: a pattern. It's not it's not useful. Just keep marking
Speaker 1: the grades down or keep yelling or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: You know, and you have to come up with a
Speaker 1: plan to teach them how to be less forgetful or
Speaker 1: they're not going to overcome it because Sonny, I forgot
Speaker 1: our anniversary, don't come because I have ADHD. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: it's not that either. That's why you have to you
Speaker 1: have to combine the awareness with a solution. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what it is. But the punishment all on its own
Speaker 1: isn't going to do it right, So it has to
Speaker 1: be you have to be aware that. That's where awareness
Speaker 1: that it's ADHD matters so much. Right, once you've establish it,
Speaker 1: the forgetfulness of ADHD and then example you brought up
Speaker 1: in relationships is vital. I mean, it's a it's funny,
Speaker 1: but it's vital because you know you don't it's not
Speaker 1: like you're just off the hook for everything. And it's
Speaker 1: not like you have to just completely forgive so long
Speaker 1: with ADHD for forgetting your adversary. But there is a
Speaker 1: subtle shift in perspective if you can at least recognize
Speaker 1: that you know it's forgetfulness related to ADHD. You know,
Speaker 1: we have to come up with a solution here, and
Speaker 1: I'm really frustrated and angry about it. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: intentional either as an important shift in perspective, right, No,
Speaker 1: for sure. So school was one area that you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence. I don't know how much
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'll give you a quick overview. You
Speaker 1: can tell me where you want to go into detail.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of evidence based practice. Most students
Speaker 1: with ADHD benefit from supports outside of school. There are
Speaker 1: a whole list of things that have you know, basically
Speaker 1: initially struggling from that same concept of how can we
Speaker 1: create an environment that supports executive function? So those are
Speaker 1: things like cognitive behavioral therapy, ADHD coaching, parent training programs
Speaker 1: that help you create the structure and life that both
Speaker 1: accommodates for executive function where that's needed, and also teaches
Speaker 1: aspects of executive function where that's possible. So that the
Speaker 1: second part, the third part is the medication around the ADHD,
Speaker 1: which you know, as its whole. We could speak for
Speaker 1: hours just about that because it's become so controversial. But
Speaker 1: you know, the short of it is the reason or
Speaker 1: research backed recommendation exists for ADHD. Excuse me. The reason
Speaker 1: the recommendation exists for ADHD is because the research really
Speaker 1: suggests that for many people it's very very helpful and
Speaker 1: that you know, used appropriately, which is a big can
Speaker 1: of worms itself. They're not always used appropriately. They don't
Speaker 1: have typical they don't typically have side effects. Is actually
Speaker 1: very hard to cause a long term side effect with
Speaker 1: an ADHD medication, but they don't do anything long term,
Speaker 1: so anytime you stop them, you go back to baseline.
Speaker 1: But I don't even want to go that far. I
Speaker 1: just I think the most important thing is to realize,
Speaker 1: you know, it's become very polarized artificially. You know, we
Speaker 1: can all agree that no one should take medication they
Speaker 1: don't need with or without ADHD, and if there's a
Speaker 1: plan that works without ADHD, that for anything, that's always ideal.
Speaker 1: So you know, you evaluating as an individual, whether somebody
Speaker 1: wants to try them or doesn't want to try them.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's just important to approach you with
Speaker 1: that level of objectivity. All medications have potential side effects,
Speaker 1: you know, used appropriately, they have potential benefits and that's
Speaker 1: you know, from a pure statistical point of view. You know,
Speaker 1: if you have a drop pie chart of like what
Speaker 1: is going to affect ADHD, that's you know, in most
Speaker 1: studies that one of the bigger pieces of the pie
Speaker 1: for having potential benefit. Do you prefer any over another?
Speaker 1: Like do you like riddle in? Do you think they're all?
Speaker 1: Basically it's all idiosyncratic, you know, basically everyone responds differently
Speaker 1: to medication. The most important bullet point about it is
Speaker 1: that it often is a kind of arduous but not
Speaker 1: very prolonged trial and error to get it right. So
Speaker 1: when they're managed, you know, when they're managed closely, you
Speaker 1: can make relatively quick changes. But truthfully, again you can
Speaker 1: look at individual studies here and there, but on a
Speaker 1: practical level, all the stimulants are equivalent of each other.
Speaker 1: I mean, different lengths of effect and different you know,
Speaker 1: different individual to in visual but there's no one better
Speaker 1: than any other one really. And then the last aspect
Speaker 1: of ADHD, that's sort of the foundation, the sort of
Speaker 1: last aspect of ADHD. I think that for many people
Speaker 1: helps really take them more fully past. ADHD are kind
Speaker 1: of a broader umbrella of things that have to do
Speaker 1: with kind of daily living, and just the recognition that
Speaker 1: you know, ADHD affects sleep, but better sleep helps with ADHD,
Speaker 1: and exercise helps with ADHD, but ADHD can make it
Speaker 1: harder to maintain exercise routine, and nutrition might be involved,
Speaker 1: and all those other things are part of the picture too,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's like, you know, you've got to
Speaker 1: look at that too, and what's the impact of that.
Speaker 1: You have someone who's you know, whose ADHD has made
Speaker 1: it totally undermine their ability to sleep consistently, and that's
Speaker 1: going to exacerbate things too. And then within that sort
Speaker 1: of list of like lifestyle habits you can use that
Speaker 1: are evidence based and very practical, there's mindfulness, which I
Speaker 1: think you know is very uniquely supportive for people with
Speaker 1: ADHD for a whole host of reasons, not the least
Speaker 1: of which that ADHD because it affects life management skills
Speaker 1: by nature, makes stress a whole lot worse. When we're
Speaker 1: stressed and feeling overwhelmed and not at our best, it
Speaker 1: makes it that much harder to do the things we
Speaker 1: want to do around our own ADHD. So that providing
Speaker 1: somebody with stress management tools like mindfulness can help give
Speaker 1: them the you know, the strength to sort of take
Speaker 1: or the resilience to take that next step and start
Speaker 1: actually doing something different about their own ADHD. It kind
Speaker 1: of breaks the inertia in a way. Do you like
Speaker 1: any forms of mindfluss over any others? Because there are
Speaker 1: a lot on offer, a lot of different kinds. Would
Speaker 1: you like to return to breath form? No? I mean
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say there's lots of kinds of mindfulness. I
Speaker 1: mean a different way of looking at it is that
Speaker 1: mindfulness is a lot like physical fitness. You know, when
Speaker 1: you're when you're looking at what mindfulness is, it's it's
Speaker 1: really it's no one thing. It's trying to build a
Speaker 1: set of traits that help us manage day day life.
Speaker 1: And there are a whole bunch of different ways you
Speaker 1: can do that, and a whole bunch of different tools
Speaker 1: you can use to do that. And with ADHD, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes people want I shouldn't even say with ADHD everybody
Speaker 1: wants to approach it differently, so you know you can
Speaker 1: do I mean, one thing I would say for people
Speaker 1: again not familiar with mindfulness, is that the basic practice
Speaker 1: isn't one of being completely still or completely be relaxed.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of recognizing that we all spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time distracted. You know, while we're distracted, we're
Speaker 1: kind of on autopilot and not really paying conscious attention
Speaker 1: much to what we're doing. And there's some value just
Speaker 1: to developing more awareness. And that's kind of a very
Speaker 1: brief description of it. You know, it's more nuanced than that,
Speaker 1: But we can try to build that awareness, you know,
Speaker 1: many many different ways. So breathing, you know, focusing on
Speaker 1: the breath is one, and again it's not meant to
Speaker 1: do anything with the breath or to be magical in
Speaker 1: any particular way. It's just that the breath happens to
Speaker 1: be there, especially if you're someone who has ADHD, but
Speaker 1: this can be true for anybody. Some people prefer more
Speaker 1: movement based practices like yoga can be a mindfulnance practice.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of my favorite questions that comes up
Speaker 1: every time I lead the Mindfully DHD class is, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the first instructions but leading mindfulness is that
Speaker 1: you know we're all going to get distracted. There's no
Speaker 1: perfect you know, you're trying this mindfulness practice, you're going
Speaker 1: to get restless and your mind's going to wander no
Speaker 1: matter how many years or decades you practice it. And
Speaker 1: the whole core of the practice is without getting frustrated,
Speaker 1: judge yourself, just coming back again when you notice the distraction,
Speaker 1: and someone in the ADHD group will will inevitably ask me,
Speaker 1: you know, do you say that to every group or
Speaker 1: just this group of people with ADHD, And the answer
Speaker 1: is it's every group. There is nobody who can completely
Speaker 1: still their mind. However, when you look at what mindfulness
Speaker 1: is really asking of you, it's just as possible for
Speaker 1: someone with ADHD as about. Interestingly, the challenging part tends
Speaker 1: to do more with the executive function stuff we were
Speaker 1: talking about, which is just getting into the routine in
Speaker 1: the first place. But the mindfulness practice itself isn't asking
Speaker 1: you to sit still. It doesn't ask me to hold
Speaker 1: your mind still. And in fact, you know, mindfulness is
Speaker 1: uniquely helpful with ADHD because you know, like, for example,
Speaker 1: if you are developing that self awareness, you might be
Speaker 1: in a conversation that's really important in a really distracting situation.
Speaker 1: And what mindful communication about being mindful? I hate using
Speaker 1: word mindful like that it isn't it sounds something I
Speaker 1: don't know of being mindful in that moment, you know,
Speaker 1: aware in that moment, might just be recognizing, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm feeling really distracted now I'm not capable of
Speaker 1: fully still, you know, fully stilensing my mind. So what
Speaker 1: I really think we should do is pause for a
Speaker 1: second and go move somewhere where I can pay attention better,
Speaker 1: you know, And that is working mindfully with ADHD, you know,
Speaker 1: so that it's it's not asking anybody to be anybody
Speaker 1: but who they are. But if we don't start living
Speaker 1: mindfully with ADHD or without, we tend to just you know,
Speaker 1: fall into the same ruts and maybe in that situation,
Speaker 1: you know, because we're you know, we you know, we
Speaker 1: we stick with the conversation even though we can't really
Speaker 1: hear what's being said, or we get frustrated and then
Speaker 1: escalate in some way or or shut down in some way,
Speaker 1: or we just go down these paths because we're not
Speaker 1: this we're an autopilot. So the practice of mindfulness is
Speaker 1: non judgmental awareness of what's actually going on. You know,
Speaker 1: I wish I could pay attention better right now, but
Speaker 1: I can't. So let me pause and come up with
Speaker 1: some different solution to this, or it might be you know,
Speaker 1: looking at some entrenched other problem in life and saying like, look,
Speaker 1: you know, because i'm ADHD have a hard time paying
Speaker 1: my bills on time, and you know, and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm frustrated with it, and it causes stress with my spouse,
Speaker 1: and it causes all this other whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: then you know, the mindfulness part of it is pausing
Speaker 1: and looking at ADHD objectively. You know, mindfulness isn't a
Speaker 1: miracle anything, but hopefully it gives you a little more
Speaker 1: space to say, I'm not happy with it, but I
Speaker 1: got you know, this is where how executive function affects
Speaker 1: my life, and then looking at it and saying, well,
Speaker 1: I've been doing it this way up until now, and
Speaker 1: that didn't get me anywhere. So you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to judge myself for the past, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to try this new thing moving forward. So that bigger
Speaker 1: picture of mindfulness and ADHD or mindfulness and anything else
Speaker 1: in life isn't trying to force it, it or yourself
Speaker 1: into any particular box. Is trying to give yourself the
Speaker 1: tools you need to start proactively doing something moving forward. Right,
Speaker 1: It so has a good in the toolbox, and I'd
Speaker 1: respect that and find mindfulness helpful for my own anxiety issues.
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely realize the value of it. It
Speaker 1: looks like it has a lot of value for lots
Speaker 1: of different things. But there you know, clearly there could
Speaker 1: be some moments where you it's not helpful to be mindful,
Speaker 1: but it's good to have that toll in your toolbox.
Speaker 1: You know, you've been really generously your time here, and
Speaker 1: I want to I want to wrap up. I thought
Speaker 1: we could close with maybe one or two pieces, a
Speaker 1: concrete piece of advice for parents or or children with
Speaker 1: ADHD or even listening to this podcast that can help
Speaker 1: them build their self esteem and healthy relationships. And you
Speaker 1: probably some of these techniques you already mentioned would be
Speaker 1: very helpful. But do you have anything in particular you
Speaker 1: could end on? Sure? I mean, I think there's really
Speaker 1: probably two or three important concepts if you're you know,
Speaker 1: either living with ADHD or worried you know somebody has ADHD,
Speaker 1: especially if you're a parent. I think one of the
Speaker 1: most important things for acknowledge is that you know, being
Speaker 1: a parent someone who has these difficulties, life management skills
Speaker 1: is inherently stressful, and that part of getting on top
Speaker 1: of ADHD has to be, you know, allowing yourself or
Speaker 1: working with someone who can help you work with that
Speaker 1: impact on a whole family, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: one of the often overlooked parts of ADHD is that
Speaker 1: parents need support. You know, to work with a child,
Speaker 1: you have to work with the family. And I think
Speaker 1: for any of us doing any type of caretaking role
Speaker 1: in life, finding that little bit of time maybe less
Speaker 1: than when you weren't to parents, but the little bit
Speaker 1: of time that lets you take care of yourself you know,
Speaker 1: feel better, will help you manage the ADHD overall, and
Speaker 1: just acknowledging that it impacts families in that way is vital.
Speaker 1: And then the second thing I'd say, which is which
Speaker 1: comes back to where we started, is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think looking at ADHD, the most important thing is
Speaker 1: to in essence look at it all through the lens
Speaker 1: of executive function and problem solving initially, which means that
Speaker 1: that's not a too wonky I think, but means on
Speaker 1: a practical level, just sort of doing what you have
Speaker 1: to do to be educated enough to say, like, what
Speaker 1: aspect of this challenge going on is just purely executive function,
Speaker 1: and that's where the solutions come from. So, you know,
Speaker 1: so it's very hard to you know, we could pick
Speaker 1: almost any problem and break it down into you know,
Speaker 1: how could we work on this and look at it
Speaker 1: around distractability, intention around organization, and planning around emotional reactivity,
Speaker 1: And that's where all the solutions really come from. And
Speaker 1: if you want to fully gives a child with adsue
Speaker 1: to benefit of the doubt, initially, it can just be
Speaker 1: a useful exercise to say, you know, how can we
Speaker 1: fully explain this from the perspective of like this as
Speaker 1: an executive function delay And obviously that's a simplification. People
Speaker 1: are way more complicated than that, but it's a step.
Speaker 1: Like I saw someone this week who said, you know
Speaker 1: who I've probably in about six months now, who said,
Speaker 1: you know, not everything's gotten better at Helme yet, But
Speaker 1: I'm so much less angry now that I realize he's
Speaker 1: not intentionally trying to be difficult, right, you know, And
Speaker 1: so so instead of you know, picking one specific Senate problem,
Speaker 1: because there's just you know, there's too many different aspects
Speaker 1: of ADHD to say, like, you know, this is what
Speaker 1: you need to do for this one thing, I would
Speaker 1: say the broader concept is to just you know, familiarize
Speaker 1: yourself enough you don't have to become an expert with
Speaker 1: what it means to have delays and executive function, and
Speaker 1: then problem solve from that perspective. You know, how can
Speaker 1: we set up the homework environments of less distractability, or
Speaker 1: how can we create a routine so that helps the
Speaker 1: time management, or and just look at you know, whatever
Speaker 1: is going on and one thing at a time, address
Speaker 1: them in that way. And that's typically the path past
Speaker 1: the influence of ADHD. That sounds really great. Mark, Well,
Speaker 1: this has been a really helpful and unlightening episode, so
Speaker 1: thanks so much for giving all your great insights. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you again for having me here. Take care, have
Speaker 1: a good night too. Thanks for listening to the Psychology
Speaker 1: Podcast with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found
Speaker 1: this episode just as informative and thought provoking as I did.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to read the show notes for this
Speaker 1: episode or here past episodes, you can go with the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast dot com