1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: Venezuela has been a very bad actor. They've been as 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: you know, They've been sending millions of people into our country, 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: many of them trend de Aragua, some of the worst gangs, 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: some of the worst people anywhere in the world in 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: terms of gangs. And we had some in Washington, DC. 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: We took care of them very quickly. But they're out 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: of here. They've gone. 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 3: The Trump administration used in eighteenth century wartime act to 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 3: try to quickly deport alleged members of a violent Venezuelan 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 3: gang in March, arguing that the trend Hiragua gang had 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 3: been sent to the US by Venezuela as president to 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 3: destabilize the country. But a federal appeals court has weighed 14 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: in for the first time blocking the administration from using 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: the Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight to deport 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: the Venezuelans, finding that quote a country's encouraging its residents 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 3: and citizens to enter this country illegally is not the 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: modern day equivalent of sending an armed organized force to occupy, 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 3: to disrupt, or to otherwise harm. The United States borders 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 3: are Tom Holman had admitted that the law was being 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: used to bypass normal deportation procedures like hearings in immigration court. 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 4: I'm not arguing to hear that nobody should get due prices. 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 4: I'm just saying there's a different process. 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 5: Under Alien Enemies Act. Unless of a process, and you 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 5: see through Title A. 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: DC Federal Appellate Judge Patricia Millet had criticized the government 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: for not giving the Venezuelans any opportunity to challenge their removal. 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 6: There were planeloads of people, there were no procedures in 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 6: place to notify people. Nazi's got better treatment under the 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 6: Alien Enemy Act, and has happened here where the proclamation 31 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 6: require the promulgation of regulations and they had hearing boards 32 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 6: before people removed. 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: The two to one decision from the New Orleans Appellate Court, 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: the most conservative in the country, will most likely end 35 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 3: up back at the Supreme Court. Joining me is Leon Fresco, 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 3: a partner at Holland and Knight and the former head 37 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: of the Office of Immigration Litigation in the Obama administration. 38 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: Leon This case has been going on almost six months. 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 3: It has been up to the Supreme Court twice already 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: catch us up. 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: This case is a case involving President Trump's proclamation in 42 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: March of twenty twenty five that the Venezuelan gang Trend 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: de Arragua, was a dangerous invading force into the United 44 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: States such that its members should be deported under the 45 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act, which permits deportation without due process. Essentially, 46 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: the government can just apprehend anyone it says is in 47 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: the Alien Enemies Act group, which in this case is 48 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: Trend the Arragua, and deport them. And in the iteration 49 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: that occurred, people were being deported to El Savador, to 50 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: the Sea Coats Prison. Now there was two iterations of 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: this case. The first one started in DC, where just 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: Vozberg had said that the government couldn't do this, and 53 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: there was the debate about the flights and the debate 54 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: about whether anything that was done was proper or there 55 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: should be contempt. But nevertheless, the Supreme Court comes in 56 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: and says, no, no, no, all of that was wrong. 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: None of that should have been filed in DC. These 58 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: kinds of cases should be filed as habeas cases. Now, 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: mind you, there was a decision a couple of years 60 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: ago where just as Alito had said no more habeas 61 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: for immigration, but nevertheless, I think that these facts on 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: the ground concerned the Supreme Court so much they said, well, 63 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: you got to be able to file something, so fine, 64 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: we're back to habeas again. So you've got to file 65 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: them as habeas cases. And the habeas cases have to 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: be in the locations where people were being detained. Well 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: where were people being detained. They were being detained all 68 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: over Texas. So there were district court decisions all over Texas. 69 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: But now finally the main case reaches the Fifth Circuit, 70 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: and the Fifth Circuit, in a two to one decision, 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: grants the preliminary injunction preventing the removal of the petitioners 72 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: who were the Venezuelan nationals that the Trump administration wanted 73 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: to deport under the Alien Enemies Act, saying that at 74 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: the end of the day, the Alien Enemies Act doesn't 75 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: justify their removals because there isn't a declared war and 76 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: that the actions of this trend that Aragua Gang do 77 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: not constitute an invasion or a predatory incursion by a 78 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: foreign nation or a government, which requires, in their view, 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: military like actions directed by a foreign power. They're saying 80 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: this is more of some sort of a gang or 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: criminal type of things, but it isn't actually a military incursion. 82 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: They don't even get into anything about whether these individuals 83 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: specifically are members of trend Aragua or anything like that. 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: They just say that this manner of invocation of the 85 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act is unlawful and so it cannot be 86 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: used to create deportation without due process. Now, they did 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: say if the Trump administration wants to deport these people, 88 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: they can deport them under any other grounds that's permissible, 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: just not this Alien Enemies Act provision that doesn't require 90 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: any due process to occur. 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: So I was listening to some of Tom Holman, the 92 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 3: bordersar's comments in the past about this, and he kept 93 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: saying that they're terrorists. Was the argument that they're terrorists. 94 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, you're correct. There's a very concerted effort, 95 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: even in this bombing that occurred this week with the 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: Venezuelan and drug lords on the boat, that everybody calling 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: them in the administration terrorists, to try to link that 98 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: with some sort of military like action directed by a 99 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: foreign power, to get it as close as possible to 100 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: the Alien Enemies Act. But what this court is saying 101 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: is that's not really what these people are. These people 102 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: are not being instructed by the Venezuelan government to come 103 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: to the United States and commit war acts against the 104 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: United States. These are just individual criminals trying to basically 105 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: profit off of drug and gang activities. But they're not 106 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: soldiers or quasi soldiers acting on behalf of the Venezuelan government. 107 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 3: This is a Fifth Circuit decision, a panel of the 108 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 3: Fifth Circuit, the most conservative appellate court in the country. 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, two to one decision George W. Bush 110 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: appointee and a Biden appointee in the majority and in 111 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: descent a Trump appointee. What did the dissent argue. 112 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: Well, the desenting judge who used to be the Solicitor 113 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: General of the State of Texas, a very well known 114 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: strong conservative judge, Judge Oldham. He basically argued that the 115 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act is something that is so broad in 116 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: terms of the congressional authority that the courts really don't 117 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: have a role in reviewing a presidential determination under the 118 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act. Basically, what he was saying is that 119 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: the courts should not be given the ability to second 120 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: guess when the president says there's a war, because this 121 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: can lead to very dangerous circumstances, and that you know, 122 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: you have the president who has all of this sort 123 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: of expertise in the sense that they have the Defense 124 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: Department and the CIA and the NSA and the Apartment 125 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: of Homeland Security to do all of this work and consultation, 126 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: and if they make a determination that there is a 127 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: dangerous environment akin to the environment that's required under the 128 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act, that for the courts who are just 129 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: judges sitting there in you know, Louisiana or Texas or 130 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: wherever they're sitting that don't have all this access to 131 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security 132 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: and the NSA and the CIA, et cetera to be 133 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: able to come in and say, well, we don't actually 134 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: think this rises to the kind of war level threat 135 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: that is required under the Alien Enemies that he's saying 136 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: that it is incredibly dangerous because what is the limiting 137 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: principle there? Now the judges can decide what is a 138 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: war what isn't a war, and that's not what Congress 139 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: had intended here. The problem with that is, at the 140 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: end of the day. If you really have no limiting 141 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: principles on the Alien Enemies Act at all, including whether 142 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: it can be invoked and who it can be invoked again, 143 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: then at that point, I mean, there really would be 144 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: no way for either you or I or any of 145 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: your listeners to go into court if we were mistakenly 146 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: apprehended by Ice. Ice could say, you know, Leon or June, 147 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: you're members of this trend, that Ragua gang, and we're 148 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: sending you Tel Salvador. And you could say, yeah, but 149 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: I've never visited Venezuela, and I don't even know any Venezuelans, 150 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: and I'm not a member of the gang. I host 151 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg. So and it won't matter because there's no 152 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: court to bring it to. And so I don't think 153 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: anyone will be fully comfortable with that kind of decision, 154 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: and I don't think the Supreme Court was comfortable with that, 155 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: which is why they didn't issue that decision. And moving forward, 156 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to get there in terms 157 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: of that ability to just not have any due process 158 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: determination as to these decisions. 159 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, Colorado judge called that argument nonsense. 160 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: It's a difficult argument to make. I mean, look, It 161 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: all depends where you're approaching this from. If you're approaching 162 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: this from a belief system that everybody in the world 163 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: acts in good faith, then you could conceivably understand. You say, well, 164 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: why would a president ever want to do something like 165 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: this if it wasn't absolutely necessary? And why would anyone 166 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: ever put someone in a detention that is it absolutely necessary, 167 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: et cetera. And so under that you could understand a 168 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: decision like that. But if you were to approach it 169 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: from the perspective that sometimes people don't act in good faith, 170 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: or sometimes people make a mistake or anything else, then 171 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: maybe you do need some due process in that system, 172 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: because otherwise, what is checking those kinds of abuses from occurring. 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: The ruling could be appealed to the full Circuit, the 174 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: full Fifth Circuit, or could be appealed directly to the 175 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 3: Supreme Court. Is there any reason to bother going for 176 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: and on bank hearing at the Fifth Circuit when the 177 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: case is just going to end up at the Supreme 178 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 3: Court anyway, Well, it may. 179 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: Give you a stronger hand to show how you know 180 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: right now it's the government doesn't have the strongest hand, 181 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: and maybe you know the government wins in the Fifth 182 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: Circuit fully, and so then it would be the then 183 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: on the foreign nationals to actually that appeal to the 184 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. So from that perspective, they may want to 185 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: strengthen their hand. But honestly, if the Trump administration is 186 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: trying to really say, hey, these are the most dangerous 187 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: people in the world and we need to get them 188 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: out as soon as possible, asking for un Bank review 189 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: of the Fifth Circuit doesn't seem to make a lot 190 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: of sense because why are you delaying getting to the 191 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: ultimate outcome here. So I don't think from a political 192 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: perspective it makes a lot of sense to go for 193 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: un Bank review. It may make sense from strengthening the 194 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: argument in a typical case because you might win in 195 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: the on Bank. But at the end of the day, 196 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: if what you're trying to say is, look, we need 197 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: a final answer, we need to get these theorists out 198 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: of the country as soon as possible, I think you 199 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: would want the Supreme Court to look at this as 200 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: soon as possible. 201 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 3: So the Supreme Court never answered the question of whether 202 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: Trump's use of the Alien Enemies Act is valid. Do 203 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: you have any inkling from the way they ruled in 204 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: the two other cases how they might rule. 205 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: Well, I think that at the end of the day, 206 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: there won't be five justices that say that you can't 207 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: review this general concept of whether it was proper to 208 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: have an Alien Enemies Act determination. Now, they may give 209 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: some very strong difference to the administration. In fact, I 210 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: would be shocked if they didn't give strong difference to 211 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: the administration. But they may say, look, even with very 212 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: strong difference, this isn't the kind of case that gets it. 213 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: I mean, that issue is going to be closed. I 214 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: don't think there will be any justice that says that 215 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: an individual person can't come forward and make a claim. Well, yeah, 216 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: but I'm not part of whatever group you're trying to 217 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: claim I'm a part of I think those people will 218 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: not nothing be able to get due process in habeas 219 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: or in some other way to be able to make 220 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: that argument that look, you may claim there's a problem, 221 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: but I'm not a member of the problem group. That's 222 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: the second thing. And then the third thing, which the 223 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: court doesn't really do too much with. It's sort of 224 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: a two to one way. They say that seven days 225 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: is enough to make these claims, so that the government, 226 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: if they designate you as part of the problem group. 227 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: You have seven days to file a lawsuit or you 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: can be deported. And you know, the dissenting judged there, 229 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: Judge Ramirez, who was the majority for most of it 230 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: but not for this, said no, you need twenty one 231 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: days at least. And you know this is all everybody's 232 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: just making this up out of old clause. But the 233 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: question is, you know, if you don't speak English, you 234 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: don't have access to a lawyer, what is a reasonable 235 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: amount of time to give you to file a federal 236 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: habeast complaint in the court. That's not the easiest thing 237 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: for someone to do. Imagine you know, you or I 238 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: going to China right now and trying to file a 239 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: court document there when we don't speak Chinese, we don't 240 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: know anything about the law, we don't know anything. You know, 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: what would be a reasonable amount of time to give 242 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: a person in that situation. And so that's the question here, 243 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: and you know the Supreme Court's going to have to 244 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: grapple with that too. 245 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: Coming up next, we'll tell you why seventy six Guatemalan 246 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: children were put on planes during the early morning hours 247 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 3: Sunday until a judge stepped in. This is Bloomberg a 248 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: group of Guatemalan children are caught in a legal battle. 249 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 3: Seventy six children, one as young as seven, were put 250 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: on three planes in Texas during the early morning hours 251 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: Sunday to return to the Central American country, but a 252 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: judge blocked their removal after attorneys argued that the administration 253 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: was attempting to repatriate them without giving them the opportunity 254 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: to challenge their removals. Renato Castro is an immigration attorney. 255 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 4: Imagine the position of the children inside those planes today. 256 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 4: While we were arguing over the government's practices in court, 257 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 4: the children were sitting in a plane at the Hardinger 258 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 4: Engine Airport or a Pastor airport for hours, not knowing 259 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: what's going to happen or why, or where they are 260 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 4: going or where they're going to be let go. Is 261 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 4: just horrendous. 262 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: I've been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a 263 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: partner at Hollanden Knight. Leon, why were these seventy six 264 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 3: children put on planes over Labor Day weekend in the 265 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: early morning hours. 266 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: So here's what happens. So in general, the Office of 267 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: Refugee Resettlement, which is part of the Department of Health 268 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: and Human Services, keeps some number of unaccompanied miners who 269 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: come into the United States and custody until they can 270 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: be given to some caring adults in the United States. 271 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: That has to be vetted by the Office of Reputee Resettlement. 272 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: So at the moment, the administration had identified sort of 273 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: a class of people that was in this kind of detention, 274 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: and so it's about six to seven hundred Quadamlan foreign 275 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: nationals that were miners. And what they said was, these 276 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: miners actually have parents in Guatemala that are still there. 277 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: And you know, this is disputed whether that's true or not, 278 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: but for the purposes of this, let's just start with 279 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: what the Trump administration is saying. They're saying that all 280 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: of these six to seven hundred miners basically ran away 281 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: from home, but they actually have parents in Guatemala. They're 282 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: not orphaned, so to speak. And so what they wanted 283 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: to do was to say, instead of having them go 284 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: through the whole immigration deportation process, they basically went to 285 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: these kids and said, do you want to do that 286 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: and it's going to basically end the deportation anyway and 287 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: you'll never be allowed to come in, or do you 288 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: want to sort of let bygones, be bygones, and we'll 289 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: pretend you were never here and one of these days 290 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: you could always come back legally. And so their argument 291 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: is that these kids consented to quote unquote voluntary departure, 292 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: which would mean they didn't have to go through any 293 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: of these proceedings, and Guatemala consented to bring these kids back, 294 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: so they were just going to fly them back to Guatemala. Well, 295 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: then the lawsuits come in, basically saying no, no, no, no, no, 296 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: this is not what's happening at all. This is a 297 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: deportation in cheap clothing. And they didn't give the kids 298 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: the chance to make asylum clanes or claims that they 299 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: had been traffic or claims for something known as special 300 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: immigrant juvenile status, which is that if you've been abandoned, abuser, 301 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: neglected by your parents, you can actually have a status 302 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: that allows you to remain in the United States. And 303 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: so they're saying that those opportunities should have been permitted, 304 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: and this was essentially a coerce deportation. And so for 305 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: now we have an injunction from a district court that 306 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: prevents this for at least the next fourteen days until 307 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: we can get to the bottom of whether this kind 308 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: of operation is legal or not. 309 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: These kids, some as young as seven, do they just 310 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 3: show up at the border by themselves. 311 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: Well, it could happen in one of two ways. They 312 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: could either show up at the border come completely unaccompanied. 313 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: Then sometimes that does happen, but more often than not, 314 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: what happens is they show up at the border with 315 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: an adult, but that adult isn't their parents, so it's 316 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: just somebody else who brought them. And then they said 317 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: where are your parents, And they say, you know, my 318 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: parents abandoned the abuse, they're neglected me. Then they get 319 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: put in these shelters. And what these kids are essentially 320 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: trying to do is they're trying to get this status 321 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: called special Immigrant Juvenile Status, which permits them to stay 322 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: in the United States permanently if they can show that 323 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: they've been abandoned, abuse, or neglected by their parents, and 324 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: that a state court, so it would have to be 325 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: any state, would say that it's in the best interests 326 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: of this child to remain with whatever now guardian has 327 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: them in the United States. Now people think this was 328 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: a sort of a manipulation of what had been meant 329 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: to occur. So I'll give you just very briefly, if 330 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: you want to say, a quintessential case. I had a 331 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: case a long, long time ago where there was a 332 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: Haitian couple and what happened was the Haitian couple traveled 333 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: with their child to the United States and they were 334 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: here legally, and what happened was the father shot the 335 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: mother murdered the mother, and so the mother is no 336 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: longer available. The father is now in prison for life. 337 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: And now the question is what do you do with 338 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: this three year old child? Do you send them back 339 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: on a plane to Haiti? Good luck? And so that's 340 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: what special immigrant juvenile status was meant for. Is no, no, no, no, no. 341 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: You know, we're not going to just send a three 342 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: year old child on a plane and say good luck 343 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: and just push them out of the plane. We're going 344 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: to try to find them some guardian like we would 345 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: have this occurred in the US, and then that guardian 346 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: doesn't have to worry about the child's status because we'll 347 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 1: give the child a permanent status. So that's what it 348 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: was meant for. But over the course of the last 349 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: fifteen years people figured it out. But yeah, I can 350 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: engineer this claim by just coming to the us by 351 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: myself as a miner and saying that my parents abandoned 352 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: the views or neglected me, and so that's why I'm 353 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: coming to the And so you've seen in some years 354 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: up to one hundred thousand of these kinds of miners 355 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: coming into the United States, and that is what the 356 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: Trump administration is trying to end. They're trying to end 357 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: that by basically telling these miners, look, this is going 358 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: to end in deportation, it's not going to end in 359 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: lawful status, So voluntarily agree to lead. And so that's 360 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do here. 361 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 3: So it is correcting an abuse, then of the system. 362 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's correcting what the Trump administration would argue as 363 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: an abuse of the system. The people who do this 364 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: for a living on behalf of the miners would say, 365 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 1: it's not an abuse of the system. So I'm not 366 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: going to opine, but I would say that I don't 367 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: think that the people who drafted these laws in Congress 368 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: probably would have consented to a situation where any miner 369 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: could come to the United States and just say they 370 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: were abandoned, abuse, or neglected and get a green card 371 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: to stay here. I don't think that was their intent. 372 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: I think their intent was to take care of a 373 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: situation where there was a case where it was an 374 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: unforeseen situation. And now you have an abandoned miner in 375 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: the US, and what are you going to do with 376 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: this abandoned minor. 377 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: So there's going to be a hearing on September tenth 378 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: on a children's request to extend the temporary restraining order. 379 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: This seems like a novel issue. Do you think the 380 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: case will be one of the ones that ends up 381 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: being appealed to the appellate court and then the Supreme Court. 382 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: I think it will eventually if it gets enjoined by 383 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: the district court permanently. I do think they will want 384 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: to go up to the appellate Court. I don't think 385 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: it will work here because it's the first circuits pretty 386 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: liberal at the moment, so they're not really citing with 387 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: the Trump administration. But then would it go all the 388 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: way up to the Supreme Court and would the Supreme 389 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: Court allow these kinds of voluntary because really what this 390 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: is going to come down to is is this a deportation. 391 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: If it's a deportation, they can't do it. They have 392 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: to follow certain laws in order to deport kids. These 393 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: laws are established by the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act 394 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: of two thousand and eight, so they have to follow 395 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: all of those procedures. But what the Trump administration is 396 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: trying to say is these are deportations. These kids want 397 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: to go back home. And so the question is can 398 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: they get a court to agree that these kids want 399 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: to go back home or is this going to be 400 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: viewed as a coer type of situation. 401 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 3: So now the Trump administration is reinstating a practice that 402 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 3: hasn't been used since the nineties of conducting neighborhood checks 403 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 3: for people who want to become citizens. 404 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: Correct. And what's very interesting about this is, just like 405 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: in the Alien Enemies Act situation, where you had a 406 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: situation where they're re reincarnating let's say a statute that 407 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: was from seventeen eighty nine that has been used but 408 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: very rarely, and so all that is old is do again. 409 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: Here's another example where there is a statute. There's no 410 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: doubt that statute was written in eighteen oh two essentially, 411 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: and here in that statute, petitioners for nationalization were required 412 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: to present witnesses who could testify to their qualifications for 413 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: citizenship and then in nineteen eighty one, Congress comes in 414 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: and says, you know what, let's not do the witnesses anymore. 415 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: Let's just have an investigation. That's better if we need it. 416 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: And so they were doing investigations from nineteen eighty one 417 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: to nineteen ninety one, but then in nineteen ninety one 418 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: the government basically stopped because there's a waiver authority in 419 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the statute that says, look, if the Attorney General, which 420 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: now is the Secretary of Homeland Security doesn't want to 421 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: do the investigation, they don't have to. They can decide 422 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: in any specific case not to do it. And so 423 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: they just decided in every case not to do it. 424 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Post nineteen ninety one. Well, now they're bringing it back, 425 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: and they're bringing it back to determine one very specific 426 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: issue in the statute. And this is what's very interesting, 427 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: because in the statute it's that the only way you 428 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: can be naturalized to a US citizen is if you 429 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: are quote unquote attached to the principles of the Constitution 430 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: of the United States and well disposed to the good 431 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: order and happiness of the United States. And so now 432 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: what they're basically saying is, look, we're going to conduct 433 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: those investigations if we feel it's necessary to find out 434 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: if a specific person is quote unquote attached to the 435 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: principles of the Constitution of the United States and well 436 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: disposed to the good order of the United States. But 437 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: what they're also doing is they're warning everybody, look, if 438 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: you're applying for citizenships, don't make us come to your neighborhood. 439 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: Start now and give us this kind of information. Basically, 440 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: send us some references and some letters that say this 441 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: on your behalf already from some people, so that we 442 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: don't have to go and do this. And so they're 443 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: basically trying to add this requirement and sort of give 444 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: the carrot and the stick. The stick would be, if 445 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: you don't do it, we're going to actually go out 446 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: to your neighborhood and investigate you. But if you do 447 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: give us this information up front, then we won't have 448 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: to do this because you've given it to us upfront. 449 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: So they're essentially reverse engineering this requirement now that people 450 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: have to give you, you know, positive references in order for 451 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: you to get citizenship, which hasn't been needed since nineteen 452 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: ninety one. 453 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: We've discussed other aspects of you know, seeming to add 454 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 3: on to the requirements for citizenship. Is the Trump administration 455 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 3: deliberately adding requirements or steps to the naturalization process to 456 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 3: slow it down or to ensure that fewer people become citizens. 457 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: Yes, I think what they're trying to do is And 458 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: what's interesting is the previous one we talked about had 459 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: to do with good moral character and not just proving 460 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: it through an absence of bad moral character, but having 461 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: to show evidence that you actually had good moral character. 462 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: I think they realized there that that had a very specific, 463 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: expatiatory definition, and so those kinds of things wouldn't work 464 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: for that. So now they're attaching it instead to this 465 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: other issue about whether you have an attachment to the 466 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: US Constitution and you are disposed to the good order 467 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: and happiness of the United States, which isn't actually defined, 468 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: and so then you can make this more nebulous determination. 469 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: And what I think they want to do is to say, look, 470 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: if you're a person who's got all of this sort 471 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: of questionable verbal conduct I suppose where you're bashing the 472 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: US all the time, et cetera, that they don't want 473 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: to make those kind of people US citizens because at 474 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: the end of the day. Once you make someone a citizen, 475 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: then you can't support them if they've been truthful with 476 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: you the whole time. And they're basically trying to impose 477 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: an ethous into this system. And you can either say 478 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: it's good or it's bad. I'm not trying to give 479 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: a personal opinion here. I'm just trying to say what 480 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: I think is trying to be done is they're basically 481 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: trying to impose an ethos into the system of we 482 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: don't want people becoming citizens who aren't one hundred percent 483 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: thrilled to be Americans and aren't just going to start arguing, Oh, 484 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: Americas are rotten plays that's terrible. Well why did you 485 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: become a citizen then? And so from their view, they 486 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: want to sort of cut this off before the naturalization occurred. 487 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 3: LeAnn, a client came to you and said, you know, 488 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 3: I want to start the naturalization process. Would you advise 489 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: them to wait until after the Trump administration to see 490 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 3: what administrations. 491 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: That't No, I would advise them to wait. But what 492 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: I would do, and I am doing it as we speak, 493 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: is I'm saying, look, go get two or three letters 494 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: from either co workers or friends or whoever that say Hey, 495 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: this person is a good person. They have good moral character, 496 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: and they have strong allegiance to the United States. And 497 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: I think you're going to need data, and I think 498 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: it would be malpracticed not to put that in now 499 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: as part of a news starting now citizenship outation, I 500 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: think you need to do that, you know. I do 501 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: think if there are questions about a person's case, then 502 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: maybe you don't want to go forward. But if it's 503 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: just a normal case, I don't think you should have 504 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: a problem going forward because in the end, you can 505 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: get judicial review of a denial of a citizenship case 506 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 1: if you don't have anything to worry about, I think 507 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: a judge would say, hey, this is ridiculous, why are 508 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: you not giving this person's citizenship. But if it is 509 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: a questionable case, so for instance, you know, you take 510 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: the case of Mamood Khalil, who is a Green card 511 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: holder and he's got all of this sort of background 512 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: of literature, maybe that's not someone I'd be comfortable taking 513 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: on as a client at the moment, because I would say, 514 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: this is going to be a honeypot of complications. Maybe 515 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: in your best interest to wait to see if the 516 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: policy has changed. 517 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: One more thing, before I let you go. 518 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Leon. 519 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: The Trump administration is trying in different ways to restrict visas. 520 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 3: Tell us what the latest restrictions are for student visas. 521 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: Currently, if you enter on a student visa, you can 522 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: stay in America for as long as it takes for 523 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: you to finish any studies you're in. So you could 524 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: enter as a high school student at an Exeter or 525 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: an Andover or one of those schools, and then go 526 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: to college, and then go to grad school and go 527 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: to PhD and you never have to leave the country. 528 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: You could be here twenty years based on that first 529 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: student visa you were given, and you could transfer a 530 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: bunch of times. And basically, what this new rule would 531 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: do is say no, no, no, no no. Each time you 532 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: do something, you're gonna have to check in with the 533 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: government and get permission to do so. The days of 534 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: changing schools or changing programs or going from one program 535 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: to another without checking in and getting permission to the 536 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: government are over. So we're only going to give you 537 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: permission for the specific program you signed up for, and 538 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: then you're going to need a new permission for any 539 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: new program. And so that certainly sounds very rationalist, but 540 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of problems in terms of the way 541 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: the programs work make this super complicated. For instance, the 542 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: biggest one being that they only are going to give 543 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: you four years to finish an undergraduate program. And if 544 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: you notice, the Department of Education basically now says that 545 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: those programs take on average six years to finish. The 546 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: majority of people are taking six years to finish a 547 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: four year program. So the question is why isn't then, 548 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: what the foreign students are being given in line with 549 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: what the US students are doing, especially if the foreign 550 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: students have to pay for those extra years anyway, so 551 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: it's not like they're getting them for free. They have 552 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: to pay. It's everyone's benefit. So those kinds of things 553 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: that are going to be debated as this moves forward, 554 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: but that's basically what's happening under this new rule. 555 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 3: My question is why is it taking college students six 556 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: years to finish a four year program? But that's a 557 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: question for another day and another guest, thanks so much 558 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 3: for taking us through all these immigration issues. Leon. That's 559 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: Leon Fresco of Honda Night. Coming up next, the fight 560 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 3: over a seton and a tradition. You're listening to Bloomberg 561 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: there's been chaos around Elina Habba, President Trump's pick for 562 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,719 Speaker 3: US Attorney in New Jersey. Federal criminal courts in the 563 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: state have been basically at a standstill, and a judge 564 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: rule last month that Habba has been illegally leading the 565 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: office since July first. She's been vocal about blue slips, 566 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 3: which she says stopped her nomination from going forward, and 567 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 3: President Trump says he'll sue of the Senate's century old 568 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: tradition of allowing home state senators to sign off on 569 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 3: US attorney and district court nominees. Joining me is Carl Tobias, 570 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 3: a professor at the University of Richmond Law School and 571 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 3: an expert on the federal judiciary. Explain the uproar recently 572 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 3: about the blue slips. I mean it comes mainly because 573 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 3: of the US attorneys who are not being approved by 574 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 3: the Senate on their home states. 575 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 5: Yes, that has sparked it, but the problem has been 576 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 5: that the administration is not following the tradition of nominating 577 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 5: and having confirmed the US attorneys as it did in 578 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 5: the first Trump administration, when eighty five of them went 579 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 5: through all quite smoothly on voice votes in committee and 580 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 5: on the floor. But Trump has been in a big 581 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 5: hurry to seat people, and so he's using interims and actings, 582 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 5: and that has led to controversies that we've talked about before, 583 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 5: especially in New Jersey, but in other states or districts 584 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 5: around the country. In their ninety plus or so, but 585 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 5: only two have been confirmed pro for the DC District 586 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 5: and quinonas for the Southern District of Florida. In that context, 587 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 5: the President has urged Senator Grassley, the chair of the 588 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 5: st Judiciary Committee, to abolish the blue slips for US 589 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 5: attorneys as well as for district nominees to the bench, 590 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 5: and Senator Grassley has said very explicitly that he has 591 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 5: no intention of changing the blue slip policy for either 592 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 5: US attorneys or for judicial nominees. 593 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 3: Trump has said that he's going to sue over this. 594 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 3: Tell us what the chances of that going through are. 595 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 5: Well, the chances of a judge ruling in his favor 596 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 5: are minimal, But hopefully the White House Council and the 597 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 5: Justice Department will suggest to him politely that no court 598 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 5: is likely to rule in his favor, so it might 599 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 5: be better not to do that. Graffley has been very 600 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 5: clear and one hundred year history going back to nineteen 601 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 5: seventeen of Blueslips has been that the discretion is in 602 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 5: the chair of the Judiciary Committee, and different chairs have 603 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 5: treated in different ways, But the point is that it 604 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 5: has withstood the test of time, and as senators have 605 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 5: pointed out in the GOP that it actually helps to 606 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 5: have that when you don't have the president in the 607 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 5: White House of your own party. And so everyone has 608 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 5: agreed with Durbin's idea, and that is we won't have 609 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 5: separate rules for Democrats and Republicans depending on who occupies 610 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 5: the White House or who has the Senate majority. So 611 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 5: I think there's pretty strong agreement among senators that it 612 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 5: should remain in the Chair of Judiciary at that discretion. 613 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 5: And as you suggest with your question, in the past, 614 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 5: there have been a number of Supreme Court rulings that 615 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 5: have just said that the executive cannot dictate what the 616 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 5: rules of the House of Representatives and the Senate especially are, 617 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 5: And so it seems unlikely that the President will make 618 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 5: good on his promise to sue, and if he does, 619 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 5: it seems very likely that it won't go anywhere. The 620 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 5: judges will just kick it out. So I think it's 621 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 5: not going to happen, but that doesn't mean something won't happen. 622 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 5: And in fact, there's discussions on the GOP side about 623 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 5: ways to expedite the process now. And the easy way 624 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 5: with the US attorneys would be to do as they 625 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 5: have in the past, but that hasn't proved to be 626 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,479 Speaker 5: what the White House wants to do and has done 627 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 5: so far. So you have all kinds of different variations, 628 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 5: but mostly interims and actings as US attorneys around the country. 629 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 5: Now there are a number of people who are for example, 630 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 5: they're a to them US attorney nominees scheduled to have 631 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 5: a committee vote, so I think the logjam may be 632 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 5: broken sometime soon. But Senator Durbin, in the committee and 633 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 5: the hearing on five nominees basically said, again, we can't 634 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 5: have different rules, and he traced out what had happened 635 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 5: in the Biden years and how a number of holds 636 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 5: were placed on US attorneys by GOP senators that delayed 637 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 5: Biden's ability and he only was able to name something 638 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 5: like sixty to permanent four year appointments. So we'll see, 639 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 5: but I don't think there's going to be a blanket 640 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 5: veto coming from Democrats, but they may take it case 641 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 5: by case and so it may take more time. 642 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 3: Years ago, wasn't it Grassley who eliminated the blue slips 643 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 3: for appellate court candidates? 644 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 5: Yes, in Trump one in twenty seventeen, when there were 645 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 5: a number of Blue states where vacancies had been left 646 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 5: because McConnell and the GOP blocked Obama's choices in the 647 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 5: last two years, many of whom were highly qualified for 648 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 5: the appeals courts. There was something like eighteen vacancies in 649 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 5: Blue states, and the GOP wanted to move them as 650 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 5: fast as possible, and so they decided to eliminate the 651 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 5: blue slip for appellate judges. He said then Durbin. Of course, 652 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 5: when Democrats came in twenty twenty one, retained that and 653 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 5: so rastly has retained it as well. At some point 654 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 5: in the future they may decide to not do that, 655 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 5: but it has to be in a fair way that 656 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 5: treats both parties the same way. 657 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 3: So now let's talk about the Pellet nomination of Jennifer 658 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 3: Mascot to the Delaware seat on the Court of Appeals 659 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: for the Third Circuit, and why the Home state senators 660 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 3: are criticizing this. 661 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 5: Well, that was ventilated in committee, especially by Senator Kohns, 662 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 5: who's a senior senator, longtime member of the Judiciary Committee, 663 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 5: and he made a strong point that the nominee mascot 664 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 5: has very few, if any ties to the state of Delaware. 665 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 5: She has a vacation home there, she spent most of 666 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 5: her adult life in the DC area, going to school 667 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 5: Maryland and DC, and as not a member of the 668 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 5: bar and hasn't really practiced there. But more affirmatively, I 669 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 5: think the Senator explained it clearly that you want to 670 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 5: have people who are familiar with the law in the 671 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 5: particular state, know the lawyers in the state, know the 672 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 5: judges in the state, know the customs of the state 673 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 5: and its legal system, especially with Delaware, which you know 674 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 5: is a corporate center and so sees a lot of 675 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 5: those kinds of cases. But he was also concerned just 676 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 5: about her ability to deal with district rulings in areas 677 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 5: that she wasn't familiar with because most of her work 678 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 5: has been an administrative law and being a law professor 679 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 5: and constitutional specialists, but hasn't done much if any, litigating 680 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 5: in the district courts or handled things like depositions, and 681 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 5: that's a fair amount of what she would see on 682 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 5: the Third Circuit. The DC Circuit has a dock at 683 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 5: much more like what she has been working on. And 684 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 5: in fairness, she has been in all three branches of 685 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 5: the federal government. She worked on the Hill for some time, 686 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 5: and she was in Trump once administration. In any event, 687 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 5: Senator Koon's just made a very strong point about the 688 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 5: need to have someone who is a consensus nominee. And 689 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 5: there was apparently no consultation from the White House about 690 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 5: her nomination with the Home State senators, and they had 691 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 5: already interviewed a number of Delaware lawyers and practitioners and judges. 692 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 5: They thought that a number of them would be excellent candidates, 693 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 5: but the White House didn't even speak with them or 694 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 5: interview anybody. And so he was concerned as the Home 695 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 5: State senator. That means, I think he's going to not 696 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 5: vote for her. 697 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 3: We saw what happened with the last Third Circuit nominee, 698 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 3: which there was so much opposition to Emil Bovy and 699 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 3: he went through. So, I mean, do you think the 700 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 3: Republican senators are not going to vote for her because 701 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 3: of this? 702 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 5: No, they're going to vote for her. I don't think 703 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 5: there's any question about it. I mean, if they voted 704 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 5: for Bov, I think there's no doubt that they'll vote 705 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 5: for Mascot because she doesn't have a lot of the baggage, 706 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 5: if you will, that Bov had involving the Department of Justice, 707 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 5: his representation of Trump and his private capacity, and the 708 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 5: many troubling kinds of facts that were elicted during his 709 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 5: hearing from the whistleblower and others about his time at 710 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 5: the Department of Justice. There are no questions of that 711 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 5: sort about Jennifer Mascot as far as I understand, I 712 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 5: don't think there'll be very many no votes on the 713 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 5: Republican side, but we'll see. I think all the senators 714 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 5: care about their home state prerogatives and want to have 715 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 5: on the appeals courts and the district courts people who 716 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 5: are from the particular district or state on those courts 717 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 5: because they understand the law, the customs, the practices and 718 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 5: all of that in the home state, and the senators 719 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 5: are responsible for that, and so there's concern. 720 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 3: There's concern, but I mean, nothing changes, that's right, I. 721 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 5: Mean, because those are their prerogatives. But they can't enforce 722 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 5: them when the chair of the committee is of the 723 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 5: other party and it is made clear that he doesn't 724 00:41:54,520 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 5: intend to require blue slips for circuit nominees. That's the 725 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 5: way it is. 726 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 3: Give us an update on Trump nominations. 727 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 5: Sure, at the appellate level, there have only been six 728 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 5: vacancies and they have confirmed to Bovi and herman Or 729 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 5: for the sixth circuit. There are four more, one from 730 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 5: Maine for the first circuit, one from California for the 731 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 5: ninth circuit. They've had a hearing and I think they're 732 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 5: still waiting for a committee both that'll come soon. Then 733 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 5: Rebecca tableson for the seventh circuit vacancy of the chief 734 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 5: judge who's stepping down and taking senior status. So all 735 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 5: of the vacancies either have nominees or people confirm. Other 736 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 5: people have to take senior status or retire for Trump 737 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 5: to fill any more pealet vacancies. So we'll see how 738 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 5: that proceeds. And there have been none really this year. 739 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 5: There are many who are eligible, but they haven't chosen to. 740 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 5: On the district level, there are nineteen nominee. They're approximately 741 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 5: thirty five or forty vacancies and Most of those don't 742 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 5: have nominees yet, but they're moving on those. 743 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining me, Carl. That's Professor Carl 744 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 3: Tobias of the University of Richmond Law School. And that's 745 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 3: it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember 746 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 3: you can always get the latest legal news on our 747 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 3: Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 748 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 3: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, 749 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 3: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 750 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 3: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 751 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 3: and you're listening to Bloomberg