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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring

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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets podcast

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Speaker 1: called Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Now, let's bring in

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Speaker 1: Every Sheffield, Managing Director and senior portfolio manager of long

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Speaker 1: short equity hedge fund Strategy at Rockefeller Asset Management. Avery's

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Speaker 1: great to have you back on the program again. I

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Speaker 1: just want to hit you first with the PPI data.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen, but a huge jump UM in

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Speaker 1: final demand year of Europe nine point six percent. Does

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Speaker 1: inflation concern you or do you think the Fed's gotta

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Speaker 1: handle on it? Yes? So I don't know. I mean

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Speaker 1: everything I say suggests that there's and we're nowhere near

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Speaker 1: the end of inflation UM, both from the PPI prices

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Speaker 1: and from the ability of any companies to pass on

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Speaker 1: inflation UM. It's really been significantly improved through UM through

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Speaker 1: their own analytical tools UM and and and and buying discipline.

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Speaker 1: So yes, that the pp. I think it's just one

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Speaker 1: more indicator that inflation is likely to be around longer

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Speaker 1: than anticipated. And you know, I almost I feel like,

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Speaker 1: no matter what the sent does, we're likely to see

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Speaker 1: this as a as a new norm. So if maybe

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a new norm here, UM, higher inflation,

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Speaker 1: maybe not obviously where we are here at six seven,

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Speaker 1: but certainly higher than where we were two for such

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Speaker 1: a long period of time. How's the consumer faring with that?

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Speaker 1: It seems like some of the retail numbers that we've

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Speaker 1: seen out of the retailers in the earnings third quarter,

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Speaker 1: we're pretty darn solid. There's some pretty good guidance for

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Speaker 1: the holidays. What's your take of the consumer and the

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Speaker 1: consumer space? Yes, so, UM, retailers have really been succeeding

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Speaker 1: for the most part in passing on this inflation UM.

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Speaker 1: And so I mean that's one of the reasons that

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Speaker 1: that I feel positive, uh, you know, constructive about UM.

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Speaker 1: The fact inflation is going to continue. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're certainly seeing some pressure in the lower income consumer

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Speaker 1: and next year as they you know, last stimulus benefits. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think people are gonna be very selective

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Speaker 1: about about where they're spending. But from a from a

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Speaker 1: from a kind of a company, from a stock perspective,

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Speaker 1: those companies that have been able to pass on higher pricing,

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Speaker 1: I think are our places to look for investments next

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Speaker 1: year UM, because those companies that have been able to

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Speaker 1: pass on higher pricing are those more likely to next year. UM.

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Speaker 1: It means that consumers like their products, there's real demand

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Speaker 1: for them. UM. They have underappreciated some underappreciated pricing power.

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Speaker 1: How do you think about oh, Macron, Paul and I've

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Speaker 1: been talking about the fact that what you see happen

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Speaker 1: in Europe, UM, the US typically follows, and we're hitting

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Speaker 1: a big wave or a big wave is hitting us

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Speaker 1: here in Europe. Now does that happen to the US later?

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Speaker 1: I actually don't see it because as we see so

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Speaker 1: much data coming in that that this variant is very mild,

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Speaker 1: and so I think if that continues, UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: Europe is going to be kind of a a place

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Speaker 1: to see this play out first before the US has

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Speaker 1: to act. I mean, certainly, if if if only com

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Speaker 1: becomes you know, much more of an issue in terms

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Speaker 1: of UM hospitalizations in death, you might see some actions here.

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Speaker 1: But if we continue to see it quite benign. I

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Speaker 1: was just reading something this morning about about some places

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Speaker 1: starting to reverse UM, even some of the travel band.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, the U S could get through

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Speaker 1: this with with fewer freedoms like we're seeing. Definitely math

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Speaker 1: mandates UM, but not necessarily much of an economic impact

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Speaker 1: every what's the uh, the status of the supply chain

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Speaker 1: issues as you take a look at some of the

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Speaker 1: consumer companies out there. I mean, I'm looking at a

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Speaker 1: function here on a Bloomberg terminal, UH that lets me

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Speaker 1: it's a mapping function. Lets me see a bunch of

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Speaker 1: ships still docked off the ports of Los Angeles, still

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Speaker 1: docked off the ports of Savannah and New York and

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Speaker 1: so on. Is this something that we can expect to

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Speaker 1: resolve over some period of time or is this again

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a new normal here. Yes. And

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Speaker 1: the companies we're speaking with UM, they don't anticipate this resolving,

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Speaker 1: most of them until at least the second half of

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Speaker 1: next year UM. So they're planning for it. So they're

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Speaker 1: they're ordering earlier, UM, They're they're they're being much more

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Speaker 1: thoughtful about where they're sourcing from UM, and they're pricing

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Speaker 1: for it, So I think that this is likely to continue.

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Speaker 1: UM at some point, right, it should fully resolve. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just from a containership perspective, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: new orders on hand going out a couple of years

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Speaker 1: from now, so at some point there should be a

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Speaker 1: lot more simple highest containers UM. But of course it

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Speaker 1: has to do the logistics at the ports and and

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Speaker 1: COVID is related to that. UM. You'd expect COVID to

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Speaker 1: you know, to to resolve UM at some point in

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Speaker 1: in in the next you know, six to twelve months.

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Speaker 1: So I think we should start to see the baby.

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Speaker 1: Some companies have actually just UM in the past couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks commented that they're seeing things loosen up a

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Speaker 1: little bit for them. But it's an overall dynamic. UM.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's planning for it and uh, and it looks like it,

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Speaker 1: you know, it might not result for another six or

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Speaker 1: twelve months. How do you benchmark alongshore equity hedge fund strategy?

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Speaker 1: I mean, can you underperform big gains and at least

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Speaker 1: as long as you outperform years where their losses look.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think as an as an investor in

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Speaker 1: any entency is a fund of the stock UM, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be investing in funds that UM that that aren't

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Speaker 1: generating you know, real real returns. I know long short

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Speaker 1: equity as a category is really underperformed. But in that

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Speaker 1: category there are many funds UM that have actually done

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Speaker 1: very well and have preserved capital um during times by

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Speaker 1: the COVID crisis, and actually done quite well in markets

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Speaker 1: like we've had, and really protect for the next downturn.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, from an individual, the market as

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Speaker 1: a whole is gonna marched higher. You're seeing tremendous bifurcation

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Speaker 1: underneath the surface, and a lot of companies UM stocks

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Speaker 1: down meaningfully in this in this uh, you know, even

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Speaker 1: in the past six months. And should you see something

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Speaker 1: spell whether's you know, start to turn a bit um,

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Speaker 1: the induscries themselves might might struggle. So look, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen here. But the benefit of

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Speaker 1: you know, of a long short strategy that considers all

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Speaker 1: these things and has has proven to do well through

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Speaker 1: the past um uh is that you know, even if

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Speaker 1: it turned south, you can do well. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I would look at every individual strategy m independently. All right,

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Speaker 1: every thanks so much for joining us every Sheffield, there's

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Speaker 1: an m D at Rockefeller Asset Management. Let's bring in

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Speaker 1: Shaan Karney. Now he is the head of MUNI strategy

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Speaker 1: over at black Rock, and that means Paul is very excited. Sean,

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Speaker 1: talk to me about how much does it matter if

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Speaker 1: we get this build back better bill past two munis?

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Speaker 1: Is it less important, um than than the infrastructure bill?

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Speaker 1: Was It matters, um? But but I would say it's

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Speaker 1: not as important, um. You know. Some of the keys

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Speaker 1: that the MUNI market has looked at is investors are

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Speaker 1: anticipating higher taxes as a result of the build back

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Speaker 1: that are plan. If we just look at a simple

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Speaker 1: calculation of a market implied tax benefit, it shows, you know,

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Speaker 1: the market pricing for a fifty top marginal tax rate,

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Speaker 1: which as you know, is significantly higher than this administration

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Speaker 1: has been has been talking. But I think that the

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Speaker 1: bigger impact comes from the supply side of the equation,

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Speaker 1: where things like Advanced were Funding bonds and Build America

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Speaker 1: bonds were omitted from the from the final draft, which

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Speaker 1: ultimately would have been a catalyst for for greater supply

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Speaker 1: in the market. So it does matter, h and markets

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Speaker 1: are paying attention. So Sean in THEMMUNI market um again

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Speaker 1: and I'm a big fan of the mini market, and

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Speaker 1: the UNI bond returns have been very strong compared with

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Speaker 1: other fixed income markets this year. What's behind that and

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Speaker 1: what's the outlook for That's a good question. So they

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Speaker 1: have been and a lot of people concentrate on the

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Speaker 1: gross returns. I think it's also important to look at

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Speaker 1: excess returns. So you're to date, the investment grade UNI

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Speaker 1: market is up about one and a half percent, but

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Speaker 1: in excess returns i e. When we duration match communities

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Speaker 1: to treasuries, unis are up three basis points, and excess

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Speaker 1: returns when you compare that to a U S AGG

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Speaker 1: or corporate i G. That's down about one and a

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Speaker 1: half percent. I think there are several factors that have

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Speaker 1: been driving this year's positive performance, and while I want

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Speaker 1: to say it can continue into twenty two, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of things I think we need to pay attention to.

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Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, higher taxes on the individual side would help.

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Speaker 1: On the corporate side, it's still unclear the role that

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Speaker 1: banks and insurance companies will play. From the demand side.

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Speaker 1: This year's outperformance has relative value measures I e. MUNI

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Speaker 1: treasury ratios screening a bit rich so sub fifty in

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Speaker 1: the first five years of the curve and probably ten

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Speaker 1: ratio is rich out longer on the curve. So as

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Speaker 1: long as supplied demand dynamics remains skewed, positive munies will

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Speaker 1: hold in well. However, if that ratio goes a little sideways,

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Speaker 1: we could see munities come under a bit of pressure.

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Speaker 1: I think about the net positive months of March and

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Speaker 1: April and September and October, which have a little bit

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Speaker 1: less uh, you know, technical strength than others. And I'd

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Speaker 1: say the other thing to pay attention to is MUNI

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Speaker 1: fundamentals support continued strong performance, as does the notion interest

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Speaker 1: rates will rise in as munies tend to outperform in

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Speaker 1: a rising rate environment given their structure. Where are there places,

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Speaker 1: um that are most advantageous to buy MUNI is still

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Speaker 1: if you're looking for a tax avoidance, there are you know,

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Speaker 1: our the way that we've kind of been positioning portfolios,

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Speaker 1: and you know, positioning going into twenty two, I'd say

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Speaker 1: we're going into the year slightly long duration stand but

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Speaker 1: importantly maintaining a barbell yield curve strategy. So we prefer

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Speaker 1: lower rated investment grade bonds for instance, particularly in the

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Speaker 1: front end of the yield curve, as well as select

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Speaker 1: high yield credits. And we maintain a favorable view on

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Speaker 1: tax backed transportation, healthcare, and the education sectors. And the

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Speaker 1: economic recovery is positioned to continue with strong growth in

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Speaker 1: the tighter labor market in the coming year, you know,

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Speaker 1: hence our our preference for for those you know, parts

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Speaker 1: of the market on the yield curve and across the

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Speaker 1: credit spectrum. Sean, give us a sense just kind of

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Speaker 1: how fun flows have been into the MUNI space here.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't guessing listen, talk about higher taxation out there,

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Speaker 1: people are more inngest in the muni's flows have been phenomenal.

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Speaker 1: Year to day, we've seen about eighty three billion come

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Speaker 1: into the market. We have three prints left, but we're

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Speaker 1: probably going to come in a shy of the record

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Speaker 1: of the year of two thousand nineteen that printed about

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Speaker 1: ninety four billion UM. It's been sensational. There's many different

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Speaker 1: ways that we can look at it. And we can

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Speaker 1: use MUB the largest MUNI e t f UH ticker

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Speaker 1: as as a way of looking at UM whether trades

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Speaker 1: that a discount or premium do as n a V.

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Speaker 1: That's ultimately kind of what fast Money will tell you

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Speaker 1: about the future flows, and it's been very positive. It

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Speaker 1: remains very positive. We've been seeing you know, good inflows

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Speaker 1: from from all different types of accounts, so you know,

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Speaker 1: one would believe that as performance continues, you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: see fund flows continue as well as we flip the

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Speaker 1: calendar into into two. All Right, Seohn, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for your time. We really appreciate you sharing your thoughts

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Speaker 1: here on the bond marker. Shaun Carney, head of Municipal

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Speaker 1: Strategy at black Rock. I want to bring Shawn McCarthy.

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Speaker 1: He's a CEO and co founder of Build America Mutual

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Speaker 1: talk about the municipal bond marketing we heard earlier today.

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Speaker 1: We're chatting Shawn and how the good performance coming out

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Speaker 1: of the municipal bond market. I want to start with

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Speaker 1: who's buying these things? Give us a sense of who

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Speaker 1: are the buyers in municipal bond market, retail versus institutional.

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Speaker 1: What's a typical buyer like out there? Well, thanks Upo

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Speaker 1: met for having me join you today. UM, and so

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Speaker 1: the typical UH investor in the municipal bonds would be

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Speaker 1: somebody who plays that has in the high income tax bracket.

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Speaker 1: Do you think about the fact that the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of municipal bonds are tax exempt, that benefit really runs

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Speaker 1: to the individual who is purchasing those bonds, And so

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Speaker 1: you really think about municipal bonds generally as retail or

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Speaker 1: um investments in proxies of retail meaning funds institutional funds

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Speaker 1: that you can buy. So, um, do you have an

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Speaker 1: eye on the best places to invest right now? I

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Speaker 1: mean where if I want to avoid taxes and also

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Speaker 1: generate some returns, where do I go in this kind

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Speaker 1: of market? Well, so in the municipal bond market, I'd

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Speaker 1: say there's a couple of things that are happening. This

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Speaker 1: year will end up being about a four hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty billion dollar market, perhaps a little bit more than that,

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Speaker 1: which is which is a record. We would anticipate that

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Speaker 1: next year would be the same. Now, when you look

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Speaker 1: at what those opportunities are going to be, UM, I

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Speaker 1: think they're going to center around, uh, some of the

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Speaker 1: things that have happened in Washington. So when the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: bill was passed, that's good and that it sort of

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Speaker 1: provides a resource for state and local governments to um

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Speaker 1: uh you know, finance and repair infrastructure that that they

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Speaker 1: have going forward. UM. One of the things that's interesting

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Speaker 1: about that that's Federal Infrastructure Bill is that really still

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Speaker 1: at the at the fundamental funding level for infrastructure. It's

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Speaker 1: done at the state and local government level. So that's

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Speaker 1: about of bonds that are issued for infrastructure are done

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Speaker 1: at state and local governments. So what we see happening

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Speaker 1: next year, it's going to be a fact that there'll

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Speaker 1: be funds that will be matched by the federal government

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Speaker 1: UH for statan local governments as they build out um

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Speaker 1: their infrastructure and repair the infrastructure that you know, this

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Speaker 1: is long overdue. So this we think is a pretty

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Speaker 1: exciting area. And I think that if investors are looking

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Speaker 1: to participate in that market, and that's going to be

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of opportunity next year to

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Speaker 1: do that. UM. Sean, I want to ask you about

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Speaker 1: just the whole E s G Green bond phenomena. We

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Speaker 1: see corporations looking for the designation of a of their

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Speaker 1: one of their issuance being a green bond or E

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Speaker 1: s G friendly bond. Is that a is that a

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Speaker 1: thing in the municipal bondmark as well. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's actually a growing thing. So we've at the Build

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Speaker 1: American Mutual UM, we've been designating green star bonds or

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Speaker 1: green bonds UM as part of our underwriting process UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, for four or five years now. And so

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Speaker 1: if you think about that market, this past year through

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Speaker 1: the third quarter, over twelve billion dollars of municipal green

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Speaker 1: bonds were issued in the United States UM. UH. Part

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Speaker 1: of what we do is as a service is to

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Speaker 1: make that designation. So we've actually designated one and a

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Speaker 1: half billion dollars with the transactions through the third quarter

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Speaker 1: UM as green. And that's UH an important factor because

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Speaker 1: I think there is an investor demand for not only

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Speaker 1: making smart investments, but doing well doing good for the

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Speaker 1: community at the same time. So green bonds really sort

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Speaker 1: of if you think about it, they're there. The nature

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Speaker 1: of them is sort of to finance clean water, renewable energy,

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Speaker 1: energy efficiency. And in Europe it's it's something that has

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Speaker 1: been really a part of their market for quite a while,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's definitely a growing area in terms of

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Speaker 1: UM the US municipal market. Talk to the about what

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Speaker 1: you do at BAM. I mean you have a long

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Speaker 1: history on Wall Street at uh EF Hutton and Paining Weber.

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Speaker 1: Um you were chief operating officer to shared Guarantee until

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Speaker 1: you started BAM. In what what's the main crux of

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Speaker 1: your business? So um, UH build a back and mutual.

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Speaker 1: BAM is a double A rated UH financial guarantee company. Basically,

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Speaker 1: what we do is we put our guarantee arm initial bonds.

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Speaker 1: That makes them double A in their own right. It's

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Speaker 1: a little like you co signing a student loan for

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Speaker 1: your children. UH. You hope they get a job and

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Speaker 1: you hope they tell, but UM, if they don't, where

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Speaker 1: they are standing by to make timely payment of principle

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Speaker 1: and interest when due. So why do people use us?

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Speaker 1: Issuers use us because we are UH going to lower

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Speaker 1: their cost of funding and that that's pure and simple.

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Speaker 1: So we're double A. We put our guarantee on that.

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Speaker 1: It creates creator liquidity in the paper we provide on

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Speaker 1: our website for free credit profiles, which is a summer

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Speaker 1: every transaction that we underwrite, we looked at that every year, UH,

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Speaker 1: and that creates value protection for the investor. It also

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Speaker 1: creates you know, sort of unparalleled transparency and sort of

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Speaker 1: unique to BAM um UH in the industry is that

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Speaker 1: we are a mutual insurance company, which means that our

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Speaker 1: stakeholders are the state local governments that take our insurance.

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Speaker 1: And that's important because what they want, what we want

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Speaker 1: is to be bigger and stronger and provide that guarantee

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Speaker 1: to the market in order to create greater liquidity, greater

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Speaker 1: security um UM investment portfolios that retail and institutional investors owned.

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Speaker 1: All right, Seohan, We're also doing an informal poll on

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Speaker 1: your favorite college bar in the Washington, D C. Area.

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Speaker 1: You're Georgetown grad. Where did you go? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: when when I was at Georgetown, UM the third Edition

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Speaker 1: was a very popular place, um uh and uh and

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Speaker 1: I went to actually bartended a place called the Foundary UM.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not objective. I thought the founder was pretty

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Speaker 1: terrific as well, very cool. All right, Hey, Sean, great

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Speaker 1: having on the program. Thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Sean McCarthy, co founder and the CEO of Build America Mutual.

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Speaker 1: Speaking just from myself, I tend to get a lot

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Speaker 1: of value out of attending conferences, and my career spent

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Speaker 1: mostly to investor conferences. I found it a good way

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Speaker 1: to you know, meet with clients, talk to other folks,

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Speaker 1: get some new ideas, see new companies, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I even enjoyed the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas, which

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Speaker 1: is a couple hundred thousand tech geeks kind of getting

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Speaker 1: together every January. But of course the pandemics put the

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Speaker 1: kai bosh on the whole conference biz and we're doing

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Speaker 1: everything virtually. So let's see how this might develop going forward.

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Speaker 1: Ben Choulder, president of Notified, joins us UH. Notified provide

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Speaker 1: software for virtual events. Uh so Ben talked to us

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Speaker 1: about what your business has experienced during this pandemic. I

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Speaker 1: gotta think there's a lot of demand for what you

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Speaker 1: guys do at Notified. Oh my, so, first, thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me on the show. I'm a big fan. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it is totally change or largest vertical and streaming

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Speaker 1: organizations actually moved right. So now it went from something

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Speaker 1: that was a great way to reach a global audience

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Speaker 1: or an extended audience to something that you had to

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Speaker 1: do in twenty so. You know, everyone used to say

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Speaker 1: that virtual events would eventually cannibalize physical events. It's not

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Speaker 1: virtual it's not virtual events that cannibalize physical events. The

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Speaker 1: world cannibalize physical events. So everyone in twenty had a

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Speaker 1: hop on board, and everyone in continued and now the

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Speaker 1: trend is heading towards you know, hybrid, right, it's time

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Speaker 1: to do both. Have bases in places and that's that

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Speaker 1: seems pretty clear. Ben. What you do it notified to

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Speaker 1: healthy industry. So we as an organization provide the platform

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Speaker 1: where the event tech platform, whether you're doing a physical

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Speaker 1: event and you wanted to manage the event, whether you're

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Speaker 1: doing a virtual event and wanted to have you know,

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of people attend sessions and breakouts and exhibits,

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Speaker 1: or even if you're doing a hybrid, right, we were

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Speaker 1: doing hybrid pre COVID. It allows you to actually have

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Speaker 1: that physical audience and the virtual And you brought up

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Speaker 1: cs like c S last year when virtual and had

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Speaker 1: eighty thousand people attend. This year, they've decided or going

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Speaker 1: into twenty two, they decided to do it as a hybrid.

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Speaker 1: And if you read the news, you know they've had

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Speaker 1: a fifteen thousand people register in the last two weeks.

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Speaker 1: People are dying to attend, but they also know that

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Speaker 1: there will be such a demand for the virtual element

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Speaker 1: as well, So they're actually doing a true hybrid for

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Speaker 1: the first time. Alright, so cee s hybrid. We know

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Speaker 1: that as of this moment, Davos is going to be

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Speaker 1: live in Switzerland. That's another big one for global business folks.

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Speaker 1: How about some of the other conferences, whether it's just

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Speaker 1: you know, a company wants to get their salesforce together,

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Speaker 1: you know in some warm locale in Florida or the desert,

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Speaker 1: or you know, an investment bank wants to have its

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Speaker 1: a conference with its investors. What are you hearing on

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Speaker 1: that front for We're hearing that it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a hybrid if they're gonna do both. They want to

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Speaker 1: have the interaction of being at the event, but they

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Speaker 1: also understand that organizations aren't going to be feel very comfortable,

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Speaker 1: and not all organizations can feel comfortable in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of twenty two sending everyone to a location plus individuals

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Speaker 1: aren't gonna feel comfortable. So they want to give them

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Speaker 1: a choice. So you got to allow the audience to

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Speaker 1: participate in multiple ways. I mean, there's great advantages of

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Speaker 1: it too. Rite It's it's cost effective, it's better for

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Speaker 1: the environment. It's great E s G. What they what

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Speaker 1: we all learned in twenty and twenty one is it

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Speaker 1: also allows you to expand your audience. So more and

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Speaker 1: more organizations are planning their s k oh. If you

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Speaker 1: can't attend in person, pretend in person, If you need

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Speaker 1: to attend remotely, pretend remotely. So I think it just

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Speaker 1: opens up the world for you to attend a conference,

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Speaker 1: whether you're physical or virtual. So and frankly, the main

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Speaker 1: thing that Paul loves about going to the office is

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Speaker 1: it's basically a conference every day. Are I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've been to our headquarters one Luxington Avenue, but

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Speaker 1: it's an incredible space and of course being there with

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Speaker 1: your co workers is really beneficial. The same as true

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Speaker 1: at Big Banks. We've heard all the CEOs tell us,

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Speaker 1: is it possible to have a hybrid experience like that

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Speaker 1: that works as well. It's possible to have a hybrid

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Speaker 1: experience to get people engage and delivering the content. But

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Speaker 1: nothing's going to take the place of when I'm in

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Speaker 1: your office or at a Bloomberg conference and being able

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Speaker 1: to walk up to someone and have a conversation. It's

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Speaker 1: a different kind of engagement. They both very valuable, but

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Speaker 1: it's a different engagement. And I don't think there's any technologies.

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Speaker 1: You know, the metaverse is not going to replace you

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Speaker 1: and I having a cup of coffee or a conversation together.

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Speaker 1: So how would you characterize two in terms of physical conferences?

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Speaker 1: Would it be levels or are we still well below

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Speaker 1: kind of where we were pre pandemic? Would you guess?

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Speaker 1: I think the quantity of events will be back to

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Speaker 1: pre COVID. I think the attendance level would be about less.

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Speaker 1: But by making it virtual, you have a potential even

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Speaker 1: growing your audience. And if you do a really good

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Speaker 1: virtual event, it's gonna make people want to attend. I

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Speaker 1: also think the biggest trend going into twenty two is

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Speaker 1: the seven three sixty five always on environment. The three

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Speaker 1: days of a conference is where you're gonna be there

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Speaker 1: meeting with everyone, But what about the fifty weeks the

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Speaker 1: rest of the year, you know, the other days, the

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Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty other days of the year. How

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Speaker 1: are you going to interact and keep that content going

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Speaker 1: and engage yep, And it sounds uh. The word hybrid

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Speaker 1: seems to be working forward, not just work environment, but

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Speaker 1: also potentially for other parts of the economy as well,

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Speaker 1: including live events. Ben Chowder, president of Notified, he's into

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Speaker 1: that virtual side of the business, giving us some good

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Speaker 1: color here talking to us about the whole conference biz.

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Speaker 1: Likely to be more of a hybrid offering in that

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Speaker 1: long term could be a good thing. And again consume

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Speaker 1: Electronics show in January, a couple hundred thousand people in Vegas,

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Speaker 1: Davos in Switzerland. They're back on. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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Speaker 1: interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller three.

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Speaker 1: Pet On Ball Sweeney I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney.

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Speaker 1: Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Radio