WEBVTT - Domination Is Peace: Trump’s 20 Point Peace Plan for Palestine feat. Dana El Kurd

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<v Speaker 1>Col Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My

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<v Speaker 2>name is Dana al Kurd and I'm a writer, analyst,

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<v Speaker 2>and researcher of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate

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<v Speaker 2>professor of political science and a senior non resident fellow

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<v Speaker 2>at the Arab Center Washington. I'm recording this on October nineteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five. Negotiators from a number of countries and

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<v Speaker 2>Israel were in Cairo recently discussing the next phase of

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<v Speaker 2>the ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel. Hamas has since

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<v Speaker 2>released all remaining Israeli hostages as well as the bodies

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<v Speaker 2>of those who were killed, and Israel has withdrawn from

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<v Speaker 2>certain parts of the Gaza Strip and started to release

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<v Speaker 2>political prisoners as well as the bodies of Palestinians who

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<v Speaker 2>have been killed after they were detained since October seventh.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the testimonies from these prisoners is just incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>heart to stomach. The degree of the humanization that's been

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to take place in these Israeli prisons, the torture

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<v Speaker 2>and abuse that they faced, is truly truly harrowing. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of the Palestinian bodies that have been released, are mutilated

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<v Speaker 2>with extreme signs of torture. Some were released blindfolded and cuffed,

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<v Speaker 2>returned with a noose around their neck. Greta Tunberg, who

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<v Speaker 2>was on the flotilla recently trying to break the siege

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<v Speaker 2>of Gaza, just also returned from Israeli prison where she

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<v Speaker 2>was also abused and stripped and mistreated. She said in

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<v Speaker 2>a recent interview, if they do this to a white

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<v Speaker 2>person with a Swedish passport, we can only imagine what

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<v Speaker 2>they do to Palestinians. And of course we are seeing

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<v Speaker 2>this play out before our eyes. In a fair and

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<v Speaker 2>just world where international law meant something, there would be

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<v Speaker 2>consequences for this. Instead, today I want to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>this plan that's been proposed by the Trump administration, the

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<v Speaker 2>Point Piece Plan for Gaza. Reportedly, ex UK Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Tony Blair has been consulting with Trump and his son

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<v Speaker 2>in law slash adviser Jared Kushner for some time hashing

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<v Speaker 2>this plan out. We'll get back to him in a bit,

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<v Speaker 2>as he's quite the character. This plan, as the name suggests,

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<v Speaker 2>has twenty points, but it's a little light on details.

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<v Speaker 2>It outlines the return of remaining Israel hostages very quickly

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<v Speaker 2>within seventy two hours. It says the Gaza Strip needs

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<v Speaker 2>to be quote demilitarized. It talks about the creation of

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<v Speaker 2>an international stabilization force, an international security force to operate

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground in Gaza with the eventual withdrawal of

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli troops, but within a buffer zone, and this force

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<v Speaker 2>would consist of soldiers from other countries. It also talks

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<v Speaker 2>about the formation of a quote technocratic, apolitical Palestinian temporary

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<v Speaker 2>government to run the Gaza Strip territory until the peace

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<v Speaker 2>process is concluded. But this temporary Palestinian government would only

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<v Speaker 2>be allowed to engage in service provision nothing more. That

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<v Speaker 2>government would also be overseen by a quote Board of

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<v Speaker 2>Peace run by Trump himself, his pal Tony Blair, and

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<v Speaker 2>other yet unspecified members. There is some language on the

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<v Speaker 2>economic development of a quote new Gaza, and some discussion

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<v Speaker 2>of initiatives to promote tolerance, essentially to deradicalize Palestinians. Notably,

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<v Speaker 2>the plan does not endorse ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza,

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<v Speaker 2>which was wildly a serious thing on the table for

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<v Speaker 2>a few months that Trump endorsed. But what it does

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<v Speaker 2>say is still pretty insidious. Essentially, the plan says that

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<v Speaker 2>a possible pathway to Palestinian self determination and statehood is

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<v Speaker 2>conditioned on advances in quote Gaza's redevelopment and a quote

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian authority reform program that is faithfully carried out. Only then,

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<v Speaker 2>the plan says, quote conditions may finally be in place

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<v Speaker 2>for a credible pathway to Palestinian self determination and statehood. Basically,

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<v Speaker 2>if the Palestinians do good, if they comply with the

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<v Speaker 2>International Security Force, if they take orders from the Board

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<v Speaker 2>of Peace and quote reform the PA in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>and what that means is a really big open question,

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<v Speaker 2>then maybe their demands for self determination in statehood will

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<v Speaker 2>eventually be discussed. As I've said before on previous episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>that statehood part is a bit tricky because statehood means

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<v Speaker 2>different things to different people. Apparently, Jared Kushner talked about

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<v Speaker 2>maybe giving Palestinians a state without the annoying little detail

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<v Speaker 2>of actual sovereignty. The Israeli prime minister that signed the

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<v Speaker 2>Oslo Accords yet Zakrabin, which was the first time Palestinians

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<v Speaker 2>and Israelis a reed to anything directly said after signing

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<v Speaker 2>that Israel would only ever give Palestinians something quote less

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<v Speaker 2>than a state. The international community keeps recognizing a Palestinian

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<v Speaker 2>state when the Palestinians don't really have control of any territory.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like is the state in the room with us now.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also important to note here that the plan that

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<v Speaker 2>Trump is proposing doesn't really include any Palestinian input, at

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<v Speaker 2>least meaningfully. The goal from Israel and the US's perspective

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<v Speaker 2>is for Hamas to be removed from the equation altogether.

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<v Speaker 2>There's some discussion actually still of whether they will actually

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<v Speaker 2>disarm or not, because Hamas has said to the media

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<v Speaker 2>that it's not considering this. And as I mentioned, there

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<v Speaker 2>is this throwaway line about reforming the Palestinian authority, but

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<v Speaker 2>what that means and how the Palestinian people actually factor

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<v Speaker 2>in isn't addressed. Here's my educated guess. When Trump, an Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>and the international community say they want to reform the PA,

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<v Speaker 2>we have to look at what they've been doing and

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for in the past couple of months to understand

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<v Speaker 2>what that actually means. So for them, if we look

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<v Speaker 2>at their track record, reforming the PA means figuring out

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<v Speaker 2>an acceptable alternative from their perspective, to replace the octagenarian

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas, so that the PA can seem

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<v Speaker 2>on paper more legitimate and better positioned to sign away

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian rights during future negotiations. They've already been pushing behind

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<v Speaker 2>the scenes to set that up. They pressured Abbas to

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<v Speaker 2>convene the Palestine Liberation Organization Central Council, change the bylaws,

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<v Speaker 2>create a vice president position, and appoint the guy that's

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<v Speaker 2>acceptable to the US and Israel to that role. That

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<v Speaker 2>man was Sena Cher, Palestinian businessman and former security guy

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<v Speaker 2>who polls at two percent with Palestinians. What reforming the

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<v Speaker 2>PA does not mean it looks like, is actual democratic

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<v Speaker 2>reform where Palestinians can choose not only their president but

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<v Speaker 2>also on their legislative representatives and on the PLO legislative body,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Council. It looks like reforming the PA doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean all Palestinians will be allowed to participate if limited

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<v Speaker 2>elections are held, and it seems it doesn't mean responding

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<v Speaker 2>to what Palestinian civil society has been asking for, which

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<v Speaker 2>is reforming the PA by reforming the PLO altogether, so

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<v Speaker 2>that all Palestinians can participate in the discussion of national liberation.

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<v Speaker 2>We can guess that the US, Israel, and the international

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<v Speaker 2>community quote unquote are unlikely to offer any of this

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<v Speaker 2>because they've propped up the PA in the past and

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<v Speaker 2>seem intent on propping up some puppet government of the

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<v Speaker 2>PA in the future. But they need the PA, as

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<v Speaker 2>some acceptable Palestinian entity to be even tangentially involved in

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<v Speaker 2>future negotiations so that they can say, look, the Palestinians

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<v Speaker 2>agree to this is legitimate, even if that PA doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>represent people. Even if most Palestinians eighty five percent in

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<v Speaker 2>the latest poll are dissatisfied with the PA's conduct and

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<v Speaker 2>forty two percent support the the solution of the PA altogether,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a dangerous game to play. Any sort of

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<v Speaker 2>peace process in the future, as impossible as it seems

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<v Speaker 2>at this current moment, that isn't predicated on the complete

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<v Speaker 2>annihilation of one side of the conflict, will need some

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<v Speaker 2>degree of public support. It will need societies involved in

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<v Speaker 2>this conflict to buy into the process. Otherwise you get spoilers,

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<v Speaker 2>you get political actors engaging violence to disrupt the peace process,

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<v Speaker 2>or you don't really resolve the underlying issues in an

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<v Speaker 2>even compromised, satisfactory way, and people get upset and the

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<v Speaker 2>conflict continues. So if you don't include people's buy in,

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<v Speaker 2>what you're banking on is being able to suppress people,

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<v Speaker 2>and what you want isn't really peace. It's authoritarian conflict management.

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<v Speaker 2>It's illiberal. It maintains structural violence in the name of

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<v Speaker 2>preserving peace. It means Palestinians wouldn't get the rights they

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<v Speaker 2>have under international law, the right to self determination, and

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<v Speaker 2>it means the occupation in some form doesn't end. The

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<v Speaker 2>thing is this is well understood, and it's well understood

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<v Speaker 2>by the people involved in this twenty point piece plan

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<v Speaker 2>for Gaza. Tony Blair, for example, was Prime Minister of

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<v Speaker 2>the UK when the Northern Ireland conflict was being negotiated

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<v Speaker 2>and settled. He understood then that public buy in was important.

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<v Speaker 2>The Good Friday Agreement, which ended the conflict in Northern

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<v Speaker 2>Ireland for the past twenty seven years, had not one

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<v Speaker 2>but two referendums, one for the people of Northern Ireland

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<v Speaker 2>and one for the people of the Republic of Ireland.

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<v Speaker 2>The process of getting to the Good Friday Agreement also

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<v Speaker 2>included all groups militant groups from both sides of the conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>This is what it takes for a conflict to be

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<v Speaker 2>contained in some shape or form. But for some reason,

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<v Speaker 2>when international leaders or ex leaders in the case of

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<v Speaker 2>Tony Blair, think about conflicts in the Middle East involving Arabs,

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<v Speaker 2>then public buy in, democratic processes, sustainable peace no longer

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<v Speaker 2>factor into decision making. The buy in an opinion of

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<v Speaker 2>the public matters, but apparently only certain publics. In other conflicts, also,

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<v Speaker 2>like the breakdown of Yugoslavia, the perpetrators of genophsidal violence

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<v Speaker 2>were held accountable by international law. They were taken to

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<v Speaker 2>the Hague. They faced repercussions, of course, not perfectly, not entirely,

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<v Speaker 2>not everyone. Some parties of the conflict that emerged in

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<v Speaker 2>Bosnia after were rewarded for their violence. The vision of

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<v Speaker 2>the Serbian leadership that committed war crimes in Bosnia came

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<v Speaker 2>to fruition to some degree in the form of Republica

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<v Speaker 2>Serpska today, which is a semi autonomous region that divides

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<v Speaker 2>Bosnia Herzegovina. But nevertheless, the international community at least understood

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<v Speaker 2>the necessity of holding perpetrators accountable for violence and war crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>even if the execution was incomplete. In this case, there

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<v Speaker 2>is no such discussion. A number of human rights organizations

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<v Speaker 2>and the UN Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian

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<v Speaker 2>Territory have found Israeli leaders President Isaac Hertzog, Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Benjamin Netanyahu, and then Defense Minister Yuav Gallant personally responsible

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<v Speaker 2>for the decisions made in Gaza, the decision to engage

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<v Speaker 2>in genocide in Gaza, but the ceasefire plan, which they

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<v Speaker 2>are billing as a quote peace plan for a new Gaza,

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<v Speaker 2>and their time trying to make the basis of future

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<v Speaker 2>negotiations says nothing about accountability for crimes committed. Trump, in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>went in front of the Kanesset, the Israeli parliament, and

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<v Speaker 2>insisted on his support for Prime Minister Natanieho. He even

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<v Speaker 2>got involved in Nataniahu's corruption case that he has domestically

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<v Speaker 2>in Israel, addressing President Isaac Hertzog, as Kanesse members clapped

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<v Speaker 2>and jeered, hey, I have an idea, mister President. Why

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<v Speaker 2>don't you give him a pardon. That's what we're dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with here, Just an audacious, outrageous display of corruption on

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<v Speaker 2>so many levels. The fact that these guys are the

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<v Speaker 2>guys putting together the so called peace plan votes poorly

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<v Speaker 2>for the sustainability of this ceasefire agreement beyond the first phase.

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<v Speaker 2>Beyond Israel getting what it wants the hostages, a huge

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<v Speaker 2>buffer zone that leaves Israel in control of Gaza's former

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<v Speaker 2>urban areas, and possibly they might get the neutralization of Hamas,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not clear that this ceasefire agreement can actually advance

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<v Speaker 2>into a sustainable negotiation that maintains peace in the long run.

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<v Speaker 2>It's why scholar Marika Sosnowski at the University of Melbourne,

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<v Speaker 2>who studies ceasefire agreements in particular, calls this a strangle contract.

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<v Speaker 2>She notes that Israeli withdrawal, release of hostages, and full

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<v Speaker 2>aid being led into Gaza is the quote bare minimum

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<v Speaker 2>you would expect both sides to acquiesce to as part

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<v Speaker 2>of a ceasefire deal. She expresses concern that this agreement

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<v Speaker 2>is highly coercive and that it quote enables the more

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<v Speaker 2>powerful party to force the weaker party into agreeing to

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<v Speaker 2>anything in order for them to survive. This is in

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<v Speaker 2>direct contrast to a bargain between two equal parties that

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<v Speaker 2>can sustain peace. She also very rightly notes that Israel

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<v Speaker 2>could at any time claim the Palestinians are not abiding

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<v Speaker 2>by the terms of the agreement and and the ceasefire,

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<v Speaker 2>justifying restarting the war. The Palestinians have no leverage at

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<v Speaker 2>all in this agreement, and obviously they can't rely on

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<v Speaker 2>unbiased international mediation with the Trump and Kushner and Blairs

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<v Speaker 2>of the world. At the helm of this Sisnowski quotes

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<v Speaker 2>a Palestinian leader from Yermuk camp in Syria who said,

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<v Speaker 2>to her quote, if there is a ceasefire, people know

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<v Speaker 2>the devil is coming. I think that captures exactly everyone's

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<v Speaker 2>fears in this moment. The Palesadian Civil Defense Agency says

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<v Speaker 2>forty Palestinians have been killed in Gaza today October nineteenth.

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<v Speaker 2>Children have been shot and killed in the West Bank.

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<v Speaker 2>After the ceasefire agreement, Israel raided the family homes of

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian prisoners in five districts across the West Bank before

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<v Speaker 2>releasing them. Nataniehu has said he won't open the Rafach crossing.

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<v Speaker 2>These all seem like Israeli violations to the ceasefire to me,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's not how it'll be reported. And because the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump administration has twisted the meaning of words where domination

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<v Speaker 2>equals peace and injustice equal stability. Once this happens, I

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<v Speaker 2>fear very few will question the premise of this agreement

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<v Speaker 2>and the entire peace process to begin with a peace

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<v Speaker 2>process for Palestinians aren't even allowed to participate. No one

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<v Speaker 2>can be surprised when this doesn't last, and no one

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<v Speaker 2>can be surprised that this cannot be the basis for

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<v Speaker 2>sustainable peace. But hey, I hope I'm wrong. Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for listening to this episode of It Could Happen Here.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's hoping for justice and peace.

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<v Speaker 1>It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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<v Speaker 1>Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.880
<v Speaker 1>now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 1>in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. Thank