1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: I never told your protection of iHeart Radio. So recently 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: we did a happy Hour on Bat Bat Soda, which 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: is a coffee soda, and we mentioned that there's a 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: classic episode about kind of this bro coffee culture, and 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: this is that episode that we wanted to rerun this classic. So, Samantha, 7 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: I want to ask you, when did you start drinking coffee? 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: Did you like it immediately? Uh? Yeah, I think it 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: may even one of those drinks that that I knew 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: was cool and adult like and so wanted to like 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: it desperately. But I am a huge I had this 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: huge thing. I think it started in Korea. It's like, 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: these are vague memories and I've talked about my food 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: sin three things from childhood that I have a memory 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: of the powdered coffee mate creamer and loving that in coffee, 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: like it tastes like caramel sugar to me, and I 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: would eat it playne. I think I mixed it in 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: hot water one time without the coffee, but that love 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: translated into putting it in coffee and just loving it. 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: And I don't know why. Like y'all have some weird associations. 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: But I have an association of going to funeral homes 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: as a child and drinking this coffee with the screamer 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: because that was allowed since something traumatic was happening around 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: me that I wasn't really watched too carefully, and no 25 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: one stopped me from drinking this coffee and I loved it. 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: That's that kind of the beginning, interesting, odd journey that 27 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: I went on with coffee. But since then, growing into 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: like getting older, I don't know there was a coffee 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: at my house, though I will say that my parents 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: never drank coffee. College when I really got into the 31 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: coffee coffee scene and then got snobby into the coffee 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: coffee coffee scene. Are you got snobby? Oh? Yeah? Like 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends in independent coffee world, 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: and so I knew about the brewing and the weighing 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: and the tasting and the cupping and all of that 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: at all tasting notes. I have some stories. But I 37 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: got caught up in the world. I got caught up 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: in that world. There's this whole like masa competition world, 39 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: like so many things, and I got caught up in 40 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: it for a little while. Since then, I have now 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: changed over to Trainer Joe's because my coffee maker goes 42 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: through coffee a lot, so I can't afford the very 43 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: expensive but delicious coffee. Yes, well, I guess we should 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: put a note in here. We are not currently sponsored 45 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: by anyone we're mentioning, but if you want to I 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,839 Speaker 1: need more coffee, we're here. I love a good coffee sponsorship. 47 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: I have a similar story, I don't think. I think. 48 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: I I also really desperately wanted to like coffee because 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: I felt like it was an adult beverage that everyone like. 50 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: When I would watch entertain a mint Um they were 51 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: drinking coffee. My mom drink it growing up, and I 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't like it, but I would force myself to drink 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: it because I felt like it made me kind of cool. 54 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: And eventually I did grow to to love it and 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: I went through It's almost similar to my journey with 56 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: alcoholic beverages, where I went through like my very sweet 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: frappuccino days. I went through like you know, the coffee 58 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: that has a thousand one galories in it, like love 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: that did that Eventually wheedled that down to once a year, 60 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: like around my birthday. Yes, yes, I just tried to 61 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: pink drink. Shout out to our listener Jamie, it was 62 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: pretty good. I've never had that. That was a weird, 63 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: like that was a different option in Starbucks that I scacifically. 64 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: I go for like like the same espresso drinks, but 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: I was like, what does this pink drink with strawberries 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: in it? And Jamie was like, this is what it is. 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: I was like, oh cool. But anyway, but that was 68 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: kind of like the indulgence like coffee coffee shop, that's 69 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: like what do we do with these? Yeah, you'll have 70 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: to give me more deeds on that later because, as 71 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: it was made clear to Smith a recently, caffeine affects 72 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: me very very strongly. So I have to like plan 73 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: these things out. And I have a lot of memories. 74 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: I think coffee is a very strong flavor, and it 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: has a strong aroma, and it is ubiquitous and a 76 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of where in my experience anyway, So I do 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: have a lot of memories of like whether it's being 78 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: in the hospital and get that cheap coffee that's so bitter, 79 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: or are being at work and you get are like 80 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: office coffee machine. Like they just have all these memories 81 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: with it and all these connections with it, and it's odd, 82 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: as we say with a lot of things, it's odd 83 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,559 Speaker 1: that it's been so gendered in a lot of ways, 84 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: and it's judged in a lot of ways based on 85 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: what you like. And recently, if you have any interest 86 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: in learning more about the history of coffee, run savor. 87 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: We have a history of coffee one and we had 88 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: we just did instant coffee and people had a lot 89 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: of thoughts about it, which was interesting because I grew 90 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: up drinking instant coffee and I still will sometimes like 91 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: I've got no real issue with it, but yeah, this 92 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: gendering of it that I do think is changing, but 93 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: it was for a good minute kind of this like 94 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: real bro coffee culture. Yeah, yes, so uh. This classic 95 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: episode goes all into that and we hope that you 96 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From 97 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: how stupports dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 98 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I gotta tell 99 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: you that every day I need a cup of coffee 100 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: in the morning. Oh heck, yeah, me too. Yeah. I 101 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: have a good friend who just wakes up and drinks 102 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: a water with a squeeze of lemon in it. And 103 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: I tried that one morning, and while it was semi refreshing, 104 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: I needed my coffee. Now, lemon doesn't propel me forward 105 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: in my footsteps down the street. Only coffee can do that. Yeah, 106 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: and it gives me some It gives me literally a 107 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: reason to get out of bed. I like it that much. Um. 108 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: And so that's one of the reasons why an article 109 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: over at Bitch Magazine caught my eye not too long ago. 110 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: It was by Lisa Nicely. It's called the slow roasted 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: Sexism of specialty Coffee. And I have to admit when 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: Kristen suggested we talk about gender and the coffee industry, 113 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: I drew a blank. She threw hot coffee in my 114 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: face and said, you're crazy. Then I shuffled my papers 115 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: and walked away. Um. Yeah, no, I really didn't know 116 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: that there was this whole I don't want to say underbelly. 117 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: That sounds like we're talking about something that's very seedy. 118 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: But I had no idea that there was this aspect 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: to this whole culture. Yeah, I had no idea either. 120 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you and I are both well 121 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: aware of the specialty coffee industry. Um. But yeah, when 122 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: once you start digging into the gender, it gets really fascinating. 123 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: So first, let's just talk a little bit about what 124 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: we mean by specialty coffee. We're gonna get into just 125 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: coffee coffee, but this really kicks off with a conversation 126 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: about specialty coffee, which is really devoted to giving consumers 127 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: a high quality coffee experience, which is not what I 128 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: do every morning for myself. Me neither, no, but it 129 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: is experience, italicized experience. Yes, um. But the people in 130 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: this industry, the specialty coffee industry, really pay attention to 131 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: every level of the coffee making process, the different bean varieties, 132 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: the soil it's grown in, the correct way to roast it, 133 00:07:54,840 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: the different flavor profiles and aromas, the acidity, the espresso dosage, 134 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: and the flawless service and presentation at last. And you 135 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: might think that the history of specialty coffee just begins 136 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: with Starbucks, but actually it was unheard of before nineteen 137 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: seventy four, And that was the year when a lady 138 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: named Irma Knutson use the term for the first time 139 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: in the Tea and Coffee Trade Journal. And essentially, specialty 140 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: coffee denotes what at that time was somewhat radical idea 141 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: of how different geographic microclimates of where coffee is grown 142 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: produces various flavor profiles, and so specialty coffee emerges as 143 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: this brewing craft that really seeks to preserve the integrity 144 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: and intensity of those different flavors. Yeah. And I would 145 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: just like to note that my brother in law works 146 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: in specialty coffee, and and I enjoy going to him 147 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: and my sister's house because I know I'm going to 148 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: get amazing coffee. The only downside, Caroline, is because of 149 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: this attention to detail in the morning, when I wake 150 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: up and I want my cup of coffee immediately, I 151 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: usually have to wait about half an hour because it's 152 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, he meticulously weighs out the beans and does 153 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: the special kind of drip coffee brewing technique that takes 154 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: a lot longer. This is not your K cup pop 155 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: it in. Don't even get him started on K cups. Um. Yeah, 156 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: it's incredible. I mean, the the final product is so rich, 157 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: and it's very caffeinated, and it's a very lively experience 158 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: drinking this. But it's a it's a process. I'm picturing 159 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: you in a pharmaceutical company ad when you're talking about 160 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: this coffee, like you said lively, and I'm just picturing 161 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: you like bounding around, like all right, coffee. After I 162 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: have a cup of his coffee, you are bounding around. 163 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: It is incredible, but you just you have to wait 164 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: for it. It's it's slow. Does he use one of 165 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: those like kim X beaker things with ye? Fancy? I 166 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: don't have I don't have the patients. I just want 167 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: my coffee grounds that I get from whatever store and 168 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: I want to pour them in the filter in my 169 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: little whatever brand it is, coffee made or whatever, and 170 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: I just wanted to drip and brew. I need it more, 171 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,119 Speaker 1: I need it faster, exactly. Well, there are so many 172 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: people who are invested in specialty coffee that it's a 173 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: massive industry. Now. It's worth in the US alone thirty 174 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year. That's all mugs sold at Starbucks. 175 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: That's all that money is. It's all frappuccinos. That's it. 176 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: And so getting back to that bitch article, you might 177 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: be thinking, well, where is the sexism and that Well 178 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: at Lesta nicely argues that, as often happens in industries 179 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: like this, is reminiscent of our conversations about women and them. 180 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: As things including coffee have become more specialized, you often 181 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: see a masculinization of that industry. Once the profits start 182 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: going up and you you start developing different craft and 183 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: specialty around it, more men come into the fold, and 184 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: rather than coffee serving being something that you know, waitresses 185 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: are doing in diners, now you have Barrista's right. It's 186 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: all about kind of social prestige being associated with it, 187 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: and that leads to higher wages. And as this happens, 188 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: it's harder for women to get in and then advance 189 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: in the field once they're in it, and so a 190 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: lot of this ties into wages, career advancement, or even 191 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: something like coffee competitions. Yeah, and we're gonna get into 192 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: those contemporary gender issues with coffee, but first we've got 193 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: to talk about the gendered history of coffee and coffee 194 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: houses because it's it's really fascinating, Yeah, and so exclusive, 195 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: so exclusive of women. But so um, let's go back 196 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: way back to when coffee was first introduced, and it 197 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: was pretty much entirely unknown before the middle of the 198 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: fifteenth century, at which point it was expanding in the 199 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: Red Sea basin area. So that's like the Ottoman Empire. 200 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: It spreads to the Ottoman Empire over the sixteenth century, 201 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: goes over to Venice. People in Venice are drinking it, 202 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: physicians are using it. Then we have Western scholars and 203 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: botanists who start talking about this fancy new plant. Then 204 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: physicians in the West start talking about it too, and 205 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 1: then the original hipsters come in the the English travelers 206 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: like Sir Henry Blunt who visited Turkey and realized that, hey, 207 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: you know what, not only are the Turks not so bad, 208 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: but they have this incredible hot beverage and it is 209 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: called coffee, and it's the best drink a man can drink. 210 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: And we should note that a lot of this info 211 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: is coming from this book we found called The Social 212 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: Life of Coffee The Emergence of the British Coffee House 213 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: by Brian William Cohen, and Cohen talks about how coffee 214 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: houses really started developing into the central institution for the 215 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: consumption of coffee and complementary exotic goods in Britain in 216 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, right, And why did that happen? It 217 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: was because of those original hipsters. There was this group 218 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: of Englishmen who called themselves the Virtuosi. And what's key 219 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: here about their their self descriptor is that it's an 220 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: Italian word for individuals who were interested in promoting the 221 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: arts and antiquities. They were basically seeking to align themselves 222 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: with this fascinating international world of elite cultural interests. They 223 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: were curious about the outside world. They wanted to develop 224 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: a body of knowledge about it and all of the 225 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: fancy exoticisms and rarities. And some of them got to travel, 226 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: some of them didn't, but regardless, they wanted to get 227 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: together and talk about all of those fancy things. And 228 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: these virtuosly helped promote coffee as an excellent alternative to 229 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: alcohol because it has those stimulant factors. You can get 230 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: a buzz for sure off of coffee, right. But the 231 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: way people talk about it, it's so funny. They align it. 232 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: They align it with booze, they align it with heroin 233 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: and opium and all sorts of stuff like nobody seems 234 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: to trust this like hot, dark beverage that can cause 235 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: you to to quake in your boots, and it's funny. 236 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: The thing that really really struck me is that the 237 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: way people back then all the way in the sixteen 238 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: hundreds talked about coffee is the way people talk about 239 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: coffee today. All sorts of people were saying, Oh, it's terrible, 240 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: how can you like that stuff? And yet how in 241 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: love with it? A lot of people are. They say 242 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: that it's an acquired taste, like tobacco, and Cowan even 243 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: compares it to smoking pot, and he points out that 244 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: it's almost like coffee was made to be a social thing. 245 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: He says, quote, acquiring a taste for such products requires 246 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: a process of socialization and habituation in which the novice 247 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: user learns to make sense of and enjoy their psychoactive 248 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: effects and their taste. And so, you know, just like 249 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: you go to Starbucks or wherever whatever local coffee house 250 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: and sit down and sip your coffee, it was the 251 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: same thing back in the day. Men were going to 252 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: these coffee houses, training themselves to enjoy it and suck 253 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: it down so that they could have all of these 254 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: political and philosophical discussions with each other. Yeah, because as 255 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: the popularity of coffee is brewing in the late seventeenth 256 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: and early eighteenth centuries, you also have the emergence of 257 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: consumer society and public sphere of people being out and 258 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: like you said, gathering and talking about things and trading 259 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: ideas and talking about current events. And the coffee house 260 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: is such a prime example of that because you're going 261 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: there being seen out, you're purchasing something. It's a unique 262 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: social space in which class and rink are temporarily ignored 263 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: to the benefit of political and philosophical conversations, allowing those 264 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: ideas to flourish. And walk into a coffee house today 265 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: and you'll probably see a group of people. You'll see 266 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people on their mac books, like from 267 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: you know all on Twitter, but you'll also see one 268 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: little cluster of people talking. Yeah, oh yeah, I mean 269 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: speaking of that, I went into a coffee house during 270 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: the snowpocalypse here in Atlanta, hoping to get a warm 271 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: beverage and sit down in a corner. There was literally 272 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: literally not an open space anywhere because everybody had their 273 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: freaking computers. Oh yeah, and I looked Adam like you 274 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: people could do this at home, But technically I could 275 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: have done that at home too, but it's part of 276 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: that coffee house five. You want to be out around people, 277 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: and so by seventy the coffeehouse and coffee consumption is 278 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: firm only entrenched in British society. But uh, even though 279 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people are drinking it by this point, 280 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily have the best reputation because you know, 281 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: some people compared it to you know, tobacco, alcoholics and 282 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: an acquired taste. Not everybody got coffee. Yeah, and the 283 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: people who thought they got coffee kind of got it wrong. 284 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: They it was considered by a lot of people to 285 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: be an anti aphrodisiac that could not only render men 286 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: impotent but women barren, as opposed to chocolate, which hot 287 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: chocolate was considered to be an aphrodisiac. So there's your 288 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: bit of Valentine's trivia. But so anyway, I mean, the 289 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: scare tactics around coffee are kind of ridiculous. The virtuos 290 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: eat travel reports of Indigenous women incapacitating their husbands with 291 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: drugs before engaging in adultery all went back to coffee. 292 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: They talked about Sultan's developing an aversion to women because 293 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: of it in coffee houses in Turkey and Persia keeping 294 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: male prostitutes. So coffee is like tied up in all 295 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: of these fears about like homosexuality and adultery and basically 296 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: sinful sex. But in England that's actually seen as a bonus, 297 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: these potentially de sexualizing qualities of coffee that they think 298 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: is happening, um because they actually see coffee as something 299 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: that helps preserve chastity. Drink it and you won't want 300 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: to have sex so well, so all of these assumptions 301 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: and stereotypes start attracting attention on their own. We get 302 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: some mock petition pamphlets circulating that claim to represent women 303 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: who were sick and tired of their men, using quote 304 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: that drying in feebling liquor. They said that men were 305 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: visiting coffee houses too much, thereby losing their masculine sexual vigor, 306 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: and that coffee drinkers were likely to be cuckled by dildos, 307 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: and that this meant the English state was likely declining. Yeah, 308 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: and all of this was happening leading up to that 309 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: seventy mark where you know you have the coffee house 310 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: firmly entrenched in British society. And but one of those 311 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: mock pamphlets was called This came out in sixteen seventy 312 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: four and it was called the Women's Petition against Coffee, 313 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: representing to public consideration the grand inconveniences accruing to their 314 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: sex from the excessive use of that drying and feebling 315 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: liquor presented do the right honorable keepers of the Liberty 316 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: of Venus by a well Willer. And apparently that last 317 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: bit about the liberty of Venus and a well Willer 318 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: it was an ironic reference to uh licentious men and prostitutes, right, 319 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: And so nobody actually knows who wrote this pamphlet, whether 320 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: it was a man or a woman, but everybody is 321 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: pretty certain that it is satire of all of this, 322 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: like worry worry going around about, you know, whether you 323 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: were going to be impotent after you drink coffee. Yeah, 324 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: it's a it's a little confusing. There's like a tandem 325 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: coffee popularity and panic going on at the same time. 326 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: But in terms of coffee houses and gender, while women 327 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: were perfectly welcome to make plenty of tea and have 328 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: their lady friends over to their drawing rooms, they were 329 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: not very welcome in coffee houses, even though among men, 330 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: as we mentioned, a coffee house we've seen as a 331 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: place where your your social rank was momentarily ignored, but 332 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: your gender certainly would not be ignored. No, definitely, And 333 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: it wasn't like they had an equivalent space to go to, 334 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: like you said, they they were expected to have tea 335 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: at home. Women's coffee houses were generally an anomaly, and 336 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: even their sheer presence, even if they were just the 337 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: servers there or the proprietors, proprietors of the establishment, women 338 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: being in the quote male coffee houses we're seeing as 339 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: problems to overcome. They were seen as obstacles to their 340 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: philosophical discussions, like the presence of breasts in a room 341 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: will somehow prevent you from discussing matters of the day. Yeah, 342 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: And if women were present in coffee houses, they might 343 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: have been behind the bar, they might have been prostitutes, 344 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: um or every now and then, they might have been 345 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: someone like Hester Penney, who was a successful single woman 346 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: in the lace business who actually spent a lot of 347 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: time in British coffee houses. It was sort of how 348 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: she networked for her business. And but she was but 349 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: she was such an exception to the rule. Oh yeah, 350 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: big time. I mean she had a lot of traveling, 351 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot of staying in rooms above coffee houses, above pubs, 352 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: things like that. But you know, we should say too 353 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: that this is largely focused on more urban metropolitan coffee 354 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: houses in London. Coffee houses in more rural areas where 355 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: a lot more relaxed, they tended to serve as the 356 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: favored locale for rest, recreation and even matchmaking. Oh that 357 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: like today, how one thing I like to do while 358 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for my coffee is look around to see 359 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: whether or not you can spot like an okay Cupid date. 360 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: It's always so obvious for some reason. They never have 361 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: coffee in front of them. They usually have an empty table, 362 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: and they're both leaning back a little bit in their chairs, 363 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: and and both are nervously laughing. And usually I try 364 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: to sit by them to leaves dropped, because I'm a 365 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: total creep um. But the weird sort of womanly exclusion 366 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: from coffee, these like strange gendered hangups that we had 367 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: regarding coffee, did not subside or disappear, I should say. 368 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: In the twentieth century, there's this strange bit of vintage advertising, 369 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: like mid century advertising that you see that's all focused 370 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: on selling coffee based on like husbands being mean to 371 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: their wives. Can explain this, but than I it was 372 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: all based on fear like, there are so many of 373 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: these ads that show the woman being you know, scolded 374 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: essentially by her husband for burning the coffee or making 375 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: it too weak or something, and that the husband would 376 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: withhold his affection until she made the right cup of coffee, 377 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: and then he would give her a kiss on the cheek, 378 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 1: or he would he would say like, oh, the girls 379 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: down at the office can make a better cup than this. Well, 380 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: and we should say that even up to this point, 381 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: like in theties and fifties, coffee is still very much 382 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: considered a man's drink. In Esquire, for instance, in they 383 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: have a guide to making the perfect cup of coffee 384 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: because quote, it's a man's drink and the average woman 385 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: to this day can't make a good cup of coffee. 386 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 1: That's so weird. I mean, my my vision of this 387 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: era is like the housewife brewing the coffee, right. So 388 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: it's like it's very much within the home sphere, within 389 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: the woman's business at the home, and so it's just, uh, 390 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, advertising, it's averaging, it's advertising. Yeah, I 391 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: think my favorite slash least favorite tagline advertising coffee advertising 392 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: tagline that I saw was from a nineteen sixties commercial 393 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure which coffee company it was for, but 394 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: it was from a frustrated husband saying to the camera, 395 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: how could such a pretty wife makes such bad coffee? 396 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: W what where? Now this might seem like a stretch, 397 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: but scholars have looked into the what it's called the 398 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: gender coding of coffee, and even today you still hear 399 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: that nineteen Esquire piece echoed in terms of it being 400 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: a man's drink, because if you think about say, the 401 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: Starbucks men, you, if you put them on some sort 402 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: of uh, gender normative spectrum, on the super masculine end, 403 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: you're going to have a USO and on the super 404 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: feminine you're going to have your no fat, skinny, extra 405 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: whip frappuccino double caramel twist. But I don't know, with 406 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: skittles in it or something. Skittles. Yeah, I love my 407 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: Skittles frappuccina. Um, yeah, it's it's it's funny and strange. 408 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: And yet unfortunately it makes sense that we seem to 409 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: align these these drinks with gender well because it probably 410 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: I mean, we might think of espresso or black coffee 411 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: or strong coffee as being this more manly drink because 412 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: it still goes back to when it was becoming popular 413 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: in England in the sixteen hundreds, when it was like, oh, 414 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: this is an acquired chase. It's the thing that you 415 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: have to It's like Scotch, you know, or oh, well, 416 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: you have to have a certain kind of strong palate 417 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: to be able to stay on this right and well, 418 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: Julie writes in her book Food, Culture and Society from 419 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, talks about how you know, you do 420 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: have like we said, you do have coffee making coming 421 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: into the home where it does enter the wife's fear 422 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: to to make it. But espresso never really made that leap. 423 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean, think about how expensive an espresso maker is 424 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: to get into your home. Um, it's largely still like 425 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: a specialty drink that you have to go to a 426 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: coffee shop for. And so in that regard, she says, 427 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: it kind of held onto its masculine roots. Yeah, but 428 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: she also notes how espresso beverages, and I would say 429 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: just any coffee coffee beverages served with milk and sugar 430 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: are feminine. So basically, the more milk, the more feminine. 431 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: And that's creating a weird association between women and lactation 432 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: in my head. Um, but she says that it's not 433 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: uncommon to hear specialty baristas mocking people who drink, say 434 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: a sixty ounce latte or a decaf mocha, as those 435 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: drinks are implicitly understood to be girly or sissy. And 436 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: there was even another study that we found um conducted 437 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: by Aubrey Limburgh in two thousand thirteen, where it was 438 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: sort of an observational thing. She worked at a coffee 439 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: shop and she was just noting how men and women 440 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: acted at when they were ordering coffee, and especially how 441 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: like a single woman by herself versus with us, say 442 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: a boyfriend or partner, would act. And she found that 443 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: when men by themselves would come up and say, order 444 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: a cappuccino or one of the girlier kinds of drinks, 445 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,239 Speaker 1: that they would be like, oh, well, they'd always kind 446 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: of like get a little nervous to be like, oh, 447 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: I'll offer some qualifier, like well, I would just I 448 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: gotta I guess I have a sweet tooth today. Yeah. 449 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: They would always have to preface it like, hey, I'm 450 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: not I'm not a girly man. Yeah, I'm a man's man. 451 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: I know I'm not supposed to drink this right, and 452 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: then you know, yeah, she also pointed out trends that 453 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: she noticed, like, uh, women were a lot more indecisive 454 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: if they asked for for suggestions from the staff they 455 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: would meet, the girl would immediately take the suggestion, whereas 456 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: men or guys would you know, walk up and know 457 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: exactly what they wanted. You know. So it brings us 458 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: up to today though, and we still need to talk 459 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: about this issue of gender within specialty coffee because speaking 460 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: of baristas, let's hop behind the counter and see what 461 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: Lisa nicely and that bitch article is really getting at 462 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: with her claim that there is a as she puts it, 463 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: flow roasted sexism of specialty coffee. So let's talk about 464 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: that when we come right back from a quick break 465 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: and now back to the podcast. So we've talked a 466 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: lot about the gendering of coffee drinking, but what about 467 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: the gendering of coffee making and serving. This is specifically 468 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: a focus on barista's or bro rista culture. Yeah, and 469 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that anyone working in a coffeehouse 470 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: listening to this just cringe the at bro rista. But 471 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: when you look into barista competitions, because yes, those are 472 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: big things. There are things called Thursday night throwdowns that 473 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: happen at a lot of either like specialty coffee UM companies, 474 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: Like they'll open up their kitchens that for different barres 475 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: is to come in and like practice their skills, or 476 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: they might happen at different higher end coffee houses. Um. 477 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: But when it gets into the competitive aspect of specialty coffee, 478 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: because yeah, that's now a thing. Especially coffee is so 479 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: big that there are now World Barista Championships. Actually there's 480 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: only one World Breefa Championship, but these different competitions exist. 481 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: And one thing Lisa nicely it Bitch points out is that, 482 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: well it's usually just guys competing. Yeah, And the debate 483 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: over that fact alone is pretty interesting because while there 484 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: are a lot of people saying, you know, this is terrible, 485 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: they're being very exclusionary, they're not letting women in, or 486 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: they're not encouraging women, or they're even discouraging women from participating, 487 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: there are others on the flip side who were saying, know, 488 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: a lot of us don't even care. There's just as 489 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: many men as women who don't give a hoot about 490 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: these competitions. It's really about making good coffee and and 491 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: we don't care. So what. Yeah, and speaking of so what, 492 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: people listening who are not immersed in coffee culture might 493 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 1: be thinking, well, who cares about Barisa competitions period? I mean, 494 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: those are the kinds of accolades that will get you 495 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: good jobs in this industry, so that it absolutely does 496 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: make a difference. Um. But for instance, with the World 497 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: Barista Championship, since the year two thousand, the year two thousand, 498 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: all the winners have been guys. However, if you look 499 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: at the US Barisa Championship, it has had four female winners. 500 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: In fact, one woman, Heather Perry, one twice in a 501 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: row I think, and she came in second in two 502 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: thousand seven at the World Barista Championships. So they're definitely 503 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: women who are slinging coffees at these really intense competitions. 504 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: I've part of one and yeah wow. And when a 505 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations come up, there are some barista's 506 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: out there who are saying, you know what, can we 507 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: just let sleeping dogs lie? There was one woman who 508 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: wrote a column in response to this, uh, this discussion, 509 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: basically saying, I don't even want you to think about 510 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: my gender for whatever reason. I want to be taken 511 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: seriously as a barista, as someone who makes quality coffee. 512 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: I don't want you to think of me differently, either 513 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: because of or despite my gender. Yeah, I mean. And 514 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: this also came up uh in a cover story for 515 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: Barista magazine. Yes that exists. Uh. It was a cover 516 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: story from two thousand twelve called Coffee Women of the 517 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. And I will say that the photo essay 518 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: that went along with it did look like something out 519 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: of Portland. It was lovely women in fields with coffee paraphernalia, 520 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: draped in gorgeous blankets. Um, so it's kind of funny. 521 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: But um one of them, Layla Gambari, said women have 522 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: to be really good to get to that level, talking 523 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: about the competition level, and she says, the truth is 524 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: that not a lot of women are doing this, so 525 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: that does need to be pointed out. But again, throughout 526 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: their conversation too, it was clear that they didn't want 527 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: to be seen these women who were being highlighted in 528 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: the magazine as just a niche. They didn't want to 529 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: be women in coffee. They're at the top of their 530 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: game professionally there, you know, they wanted to just be 531 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: seen as you know, an incredible coffee experts, right, yeah, 532 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean this, I this is stuff that I never 533 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: would have thought of it would have thought about that 534 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: that was even an issue looking back at the history 535 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: of UM kind of sexism and and coffee is crazy. 536 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: Well you, I mean, you hear anecdotally too from if 537 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: you go into more of the lower rungs of coffee culture, 538 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: away from the competition, you do hear from women who 539 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: are working behind counters who have noticed that there is 540 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: a difference. And I think it's more of a service 541 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: industry thing where you you know, customers walk up and 542 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: they see, uh, mail barista behind the counter, and they 543 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: assume that he's more of a specialty guy who knows 544 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: he's a barista in other words, whereas women are treated 545 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: more as just just servers. They're just waitresses there. You know, 546 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of the feminization of of lower level service 547 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: industry work, right, And a lot of people have written 548 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: pieces about just that horrible interaction customer barista or customer 549 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: server interaction UM where people do kind of make assumptions 550 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: about women and men making the coffee and and basically 551 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: treating women like, oh, you're so cute, you made a 552 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: cup of coffee, good job, you know, or or just 553 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: commenting on their looks, just being generally inappropriate toward women. 554 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if that this is totally tangential, and I 555 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: have no academic citation for this, but I wonder if 556 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: that wasn't kind of perpetuated by Rachel and friends, because 557 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, she works at the coffee shop, but she 558 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: just sort of serves as like a pretty face and 559 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: she never knows how to make the coffee. It's like 560 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: that stereotype that like women in coffee shops are just 561 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: Rachel's to be there. Interesting. I don't know, I didn't 562 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: watch enough Fronts to even think about that, but you 563 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 1: might have a point. An old roommate of mine had 564 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: the entire box Setle episode and there was a period 565 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: when we had no cable, So I'll just leave it 566 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: at that. Well, but also what we haven't touched on, 567 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, moving away from moving outside the walls of 568 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: the coffee shop to the actual fields, mountains, areas geographically 569 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: where this coffee has grown and who is doing the growing, 570 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: because well, we do have a discussion going on in 571 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: this country about male versus female, man versus woman making 572 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: the coffee. Who's getting more money the industry being professionalized, Um, 573 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: you have even greater disparities when it comes to the 574 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: farmers themselves. Yeah. I feel like almost the most it 575 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: is important thing globally speaking to pay attention to in 576 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: this conversation of gender and coffee is the issue of sourcing, 577 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: really paying attention to where your coffee comes from. And 578 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 1: this is also where paying attention to buying fair trade 579 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: makes a big difference, because uh, this is over at 580 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: the fair Trade blog. They mentioned that female ownership of 581 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: coffee bushes is an entrenched taboo because in a lot 582 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: of the countries where our coffee comes from, they live 583 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: in more patriarchal societies where men are absolutely the heads 584 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: of household and even though women and children might be 585 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: doing a majority of the work in terms of planting 586 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: and cultivating and harvesting the coffee beans or the coffee berries, um, 587 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: they don't see any of the profits from it, right, 588 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: and so the male head of household kind of has 589 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: say over how that money is spent. Yeah. The Guardian 590 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: in fact estimates that the women tend to do six 591 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: of the productive work, and so there are lots of 592 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: initiatives underway through fair trade organizations. UM. You also have 593 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: the National Union of Coffee, Agribusiness and Farm Enterprises for instance, 594 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: that are really starting to go into these communities and 595 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: educate the men about the importance of sharing the wealth 596 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: in a way and um kind of making it more 597 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: of an equal gender equal process, but also empowering women 598 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: with their own money and land and control over wealth 599 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: because traditionally in developing countries, when women control the wealth 600 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: and a household, it is spent more wisely. Absolutely, And 601 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: there are groups that are forming too that want to 602 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: buy specifically from female farmers, with some of the proceeds 603 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: going to fund things like mobile cervical cancer screening buses 604 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: things like that, or even purchasing new efficient stoves so 605 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: smoke doesn't fill the home that improves general health, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, 606 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it's I'd never thought about this 607 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: before at all. I mean, and it's again paying attention 608 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: to where your food and drink comes from. UM. But 609 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: there are suggestions too that when women grow the coffee 610 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: and are given that control over it, the product is better. 611 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: You have a greater harvest, I mean, because if they're 612 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: in there already doing six of the work. They know 613 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: how to grow that coffee. Um. So it's it's interesting 614 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: to sort of take more of a global perspective of 615 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: this conversation away from just what's going on at your 616 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: local coffee haunt. Yeah, and I'm trying to think of 617 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: of the of the coffee spots that I go to, 618 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: what kind of gendered patterns I've noticed. I mean, there 619 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: definitely is the drink divide where you are more likely 620 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: to see women drinking there. I mean, I love a 621 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: soy latte, I'm not gonna lie, um, but I also 622 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: love a black coffee. Yeah. I mostly only ever drink 623 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: just a black coffee. Rarely would I ever drink an 624 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: espresso because but that's more. I like to savor it. 625 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: I want to drink it longer. I don't want it 626 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: to go away so fast. Yeah, I want to enjoy 627 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: a hot beverage. Yeah. Yeah, I remember growing up it 628 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: was always a joke and I never really thought about 629 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: it in my household because my mom drinks exclusively black coffee, 630 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: whereas my dad requires sugar and milk, And it was 631 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: always kind of like if he ever accidentally drank her coffee, 632 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: It's like oh, no, yours is so strong, and she'd 633 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: be like, well, I guess even though I'm a lady, 634 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: I like my coffee strong, and we would all laugh. 635 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: And then my mom, who's a flight attendant, likes to 636 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: tell jokes about when you're going down the aisle with 637 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: your beverage cart, you know, saying coffee, tea or me. 638 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: So my mind, yeah, like coffee service has been intertwined 639 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: with well service. Yeah, and Caroline, we could keep talking 640 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: about the stuff. I feel like we haven't even touched 641 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: on everything, but um, for the sake of our listeners, ears, 642 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap it up now, and we want to 643 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: hear from any Barris is listening to this ring a 644 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: bell at all? I will say that when I mentioned 645 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: to my brother in law who works for a specialty 646 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: coffee company that I'm not going to name just in 647 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: case he'll be weird for him. Um, but they do 648 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: make delicious coffee. Uh. When when I told him that 649 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: we were doing a podcast on gender and sexism and 650 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: specialty coffee, he knew what I was talking about. So 651 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: I want to hear from you all. What do you think? Mom? Stuff? 652 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send us your letters, 653 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: and you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast 654 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: or send us a message on Facebook. And we got 655 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now 656 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: about our episode on can Birth Control Kill You? So 657 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Jen and she writes hi 658 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: late these thank you all caps so much for your 659 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: big picture look at the recent Vanity Fair article can 660 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: Birth Control Kill You? I'm an O. B G. I 661 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: in position at the Kaiser Permanente in northern California where 662 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: the lead study you quoted was conducted, and have had 663 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: to feel so many questions from patients in response to 664 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: this recent very one sided article. I always counsel patients 665 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: requesting birth control on the risks and benefits, including vt E, 666 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: as is my responsibility as a physician. That being said, 667 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: I also make sure to tell them that their risk 668 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: of blood clots is dramatically higher with pregnancy, which is 669 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: the main reason women start birth control to begin with. 670 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: You mentioned this briefly at the end of the podcast, 671 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: but to put things in perspective, while two out of 672 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: ten thousand women on no birth control and seven out 673 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: of ten thousand women on the neuver ring will develop 674 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 1: blood clot one in five hundred to two thousand women 675 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: who are pregnant will develop blood clots. All in all, 676 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: it is much safer to be on the Neuver Ring 677 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: than it is to be pregnant, especially in that cohort 678 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: of women with higher risk actors. I love listening to 679 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: your podcast and love that you have given so much 680 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: even sided attention to important topics such as this. So 681 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: thanks Jen, Well Kristen. I hope the letter you just 682 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: read makes our next listener who wrote in feel a 683 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: little bit better. This is a letter from Lacey, who 684 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: says I'm currently using the Neuva Ring. I've been on 685 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: it for several years now, and it's the only birth 686 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: control that I've ever liked. And I've tried Deborah Privera 687 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: and the patch, which was awful and oral birth control. 688 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: Your episode made me nervous, but I did want to 689 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: say with regards to asking the doctor about birth control, 690 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: my guy know has always told me that Neuva Ring 691 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: is the safest form of birth control because it's the 692 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: lowest dose of estrogen, which always made me feel so good. 693 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love this birth control and it's good 694 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: for me. Great. So it's alarming to hear the opposite, 695 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: but thank you for the podcast. This type of information 696 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: is so important, so thank you for writing in, Lacy, 697 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: and again, I hope you your mind is put a 698 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: little bit at ease from the doctor who wrote in 699 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: that Kristen. Kristen read her letter. Um again, every everybody 700 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: out there, just make sure you educate yourself and talk 701 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: to your doctor exactly and educate us. Let us know 702 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: your thoughts. Mom. Stuff at discovery dot com is where 703 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: you can send us your letters and if you want 704 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: to connect to us on social there are so many options. 705 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: You should head on over to find all of them, 706 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: as well as all of our podcast, blogs and videos 707 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: at the Internet Home of stuff Mom Never told you 708 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: that stuff Mom Never told You dot com for more 709 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 710 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com