WEBVTT - BONUS EP 1: Behind the Scenes Q&A

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<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and this is our first

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<v Speaker 1>bonus episode after finishing our season of Weekly stories this year.

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<v Speaker 1>Our team has been working hard behind the scenes to

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<v Speaker 1>put every weekly episode together, and the we I'm referencing

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<v Speaker 1>is my amazing production team, our producer Monique Leboard, our

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<v Speaker 1>associate producer Kaitlin Golden, and our audio engineers Matt del

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<v Speaker 1>Vecchio and Tanner Robbins. For the special bonus episode, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey mo, Hi, dre.

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<v Speaker 2>So fun to come out from behind the scenes. My god,

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<v Speaker 2>I am glad to be here, and I am excited

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<v Speaker 2>to dive into some listener questions that we have been

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<v Speaker 2>receiving all season on Portrayal Weekly.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it. I'm so excited to jump in. I

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<v Speaker 1>actually want to start with a question for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, go for it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, this has been an evolving journey just from

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<v Speaker 1>the format and how we're approaching our interviews, So I

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<v Speaker 1>just wanted to ask, what has it been like.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I've been a podcast producer for eight

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<v Speaker 2>years and I've worked on all kinds of shows. I've

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<v Speaker 2>produced chat shows, pop culture, news, narrative. But this show

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<v Speaker 2>has been a complete standout in my work experience. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean from the day that I came on to this team,

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<v Speaker 2>y'all have built this framework of doing something really unconventional

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<v Speaker 2>and trying to, i think, develop a trauma informed storytelling model,

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<v Speaker 2>this collaborative kind of storytelling that we're doing, where we're

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<v Speaker 2>working with these survivors, we're giving them a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>autonomy in the storytelling process. So getting to join that

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<v Speaker 2>in getting to connect with the people that tell their stories,

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<v Speaker 2>these people who've been through something really traumatic and are

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to share their experiences, has been incredibly rewarding for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's an uncommon experience in the audio industry

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<v Speaker 2>to see a show work so closely with the storytellers

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<v Speaker 2>and to collaborate with them in the way that we do.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to ask you about what it has been

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<v Speaker 2>like for you to work on the Weekly series, because

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<v Speaker 2>you worked on three seasons, you were really a meshed

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<v Speaker 2>in those stories. Yeah, and then this is a totally

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<v Speaker 2>new format for you, So I want to talk a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about what your experience has been like in

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<v Speaker 2>hosting the weekly series.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three.

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<v Speaker 1>So Jen's story, Ashley story, Stacy and Tyler's story. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>in these individuals' homes, I'm in their towns, I'm with them,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I just came back from a few weeks ago

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<v Speaker 1>from Colorado Springs preparing for season four, and I was

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<v Speaker 1>with her and her kids and her family and her

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<v Speaker 1>best friends over the course of two weeks. And you

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<v Speaker 1>just create this bond and this connection and you really

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<v Speaker 1>understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>on the weekly series. We don't have the opportunity of

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<v Speaker 1>like eight to ten episodes for us to really take

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<v Speaker 1>our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours

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<v Speaker 1>of interview into a linear timeline, and we want to

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<v Speaker 1>get it right. This is one or two episodes where

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<v Speaker 1>we have to like really do it in a concise

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<v Speaker 1>and thoughtful way, and it's just been a really interesting experience,

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<v Speaker 1>like making sure that we honor everything that's important to

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<v Speaker 1>the individual.

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<v Speaker 2>Another thing that has been so special about Betrayal and

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<v Speaker 2>working on Betrayal is the community that's developing. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>from the people who write into us into our Gmail,

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<v Speaker 2>to the people who share their stories on the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>They're like a part of making this with us. And

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<v Speaker 2>as you know, some of our storytellers choose to receive

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<v Speaker 2>listener mail and connect with people directly who want to

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<v Speaker 2>share their story and connect with them, you know, over

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<v Speaker 2>the phone. So it feels like there is a real

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<v Speaker 2>community around this show and.

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<v Speaker 1>We're actively seeing it, Like we're seeing individuals who have

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<v Speaker 1>participated that are getting together in real time that live

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<v Speaker 1>across the country from one another. Yeah, really only know

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<v Speaker 1>one other person that may've experienced a betrayal like them,

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<v Speaker 1>Like that is so special and cool, and we've only

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<v Speaker 1>been able to really experience that because of the weekly series,

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<v Speaker 1>which is diverse stories in a short amount of time,

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<v Speaker 1>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's get on to some listener questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to start with like a rapid fire around

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<v Speaker 2>of questions. We've gotten a lot of, Okay, So first off,

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<v Speaker 2>the question is why do you mostly feature stories from women?

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<v Speaker 2>Why are there so few men on Betrayal Weekly?

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<v Speaker 1>This is one we talk about a lot. It is

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<v Speaker 1>we want to represent duals who experience betrayal, like all

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<v Speaker 1>different walks of life, right, because it's not specific to

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<v Speaker 1>any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are

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<v Speaker 1>being deceived or betrayed less. I just think that there's

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<v Speaker 1>a stigma around that vulnerability and like sharing that may

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<v Speaker 1>relate more to how men process that trauma and are

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<v Speaker 1>willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our

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<v Speaker 1>audience who write in, and our primary demographic is women,

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<v Speaker 1>and so a lot of that's coming from the people

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<v Speaker 1>and our communities. So there's a little bit of that

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<v Speaker 1>going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what's interesting is that sometimes we get women

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<v Speaker 2>writing in being like I know a man who was betrayed,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not the man writing into us. Men do

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<v Speaker 2>write into us, and we have featured a few stories

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<v Speaker 2>from men on the weekly series, and some of those

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<v Speaker 2>we had to go looking for, like Ramon and Sosa.

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<v Speaker 2>We had to intentionally find him because we didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to create a lineup of exclusively women. Yeah, but at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time, there is something going on that's bigger

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<v Speaker 2>than just our podcast and the selection for our podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I think that maybe there's more shame.

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<v Speaker 1>Men have more shame.

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<v Speaker 2>About saying I was deceived, that might not be as

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<v Speaker 2>common or as practiced for men.

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<v Speaker 1>This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is

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<v Speaker 1>a huge deal when it comes to betrayal, like how

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<v Speaker 1>did I not know? How did I not see it coming?

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<v Speaker 1>I should have known better, I should have this, I

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<v Speaker 1>should have that, and I didn't, and I put myself

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<v Speaker 1>into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and

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<v Speaker 1>the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think

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<v Speaker 1>you're dead, aunt.

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<v Speaker 3>Not.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone comes forward, and we'll always have a safe space

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<v Speaker 1>for men to share their story here.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Our next question is do we vet people? Or similar question,

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<v Speaker 2>how do we fact check these stories?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal

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<v Speaker 1>process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork,

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<v Speaker 1>personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times.

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<v Speaker 1>But before we get to that, you have initial conversations

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<v Speaker 1>at the very beginning. Do you want to talk about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So when we get a story that comes in

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<v Speaker 2>through the inbox and we reach out to the person

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<v Speaker 2>to talk for what we call a pre interview, which

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<v Speaker 2>is just you know, not recorded hearing a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>about their story. One of the first things we ask

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<v Speaker 2>is for documentation, and it's not that we don't believe them.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, a trauma informed approach to this work is

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<v Speaker 2>that we're approaching everyone with belief. However, we do put

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<v Speaker 2>all these stories through a rigorous legal process in order

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<v Speaker 2>for them to air. We ask our guests for documentation

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<v Speaker 2>like divorce records, criminal records, and throughout the process we're

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<v Speaker 2>checking those things against the story that they're telling us.

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<v Speaker 2>Another part of the vetting process, which is just as

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<v Speaker 2>big that we talk about internally, is is this person

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<v Speaker 2>ready to tell this story at this time?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's huge, And.

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<v Speaker 2>Generally we like to work with people who are a

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<v Speaker 2>few years out from their betrayal experience, so they've had

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more time to process it. And so

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm first reaching out to someone who's written us

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<v Speaker 2>an email and they want to share their story, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in that initial cull, we ask them about their support system,

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<v Speaker 2>if they've told this story to other people. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't mean in a formal sense like writing a book,

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<v Speaker 2>but I mean like do people in your life, your kids,

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<v Speaker 2>your friends, do they know this has happened to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Which is not necessarily, you know, mutually exclusive of telling

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<v Speaker 2>your story on this show. But I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>sign that this person is comfortable in this story and

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<v Speaker 2>having the story associated with who they are.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Also, when we're working on an episode, we are

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<v Speaker 1>running initial, like broadstroke background information to the extent that

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<v Speaker 1>we can, just to make sure that we can kind

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<v Speaker 1>of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time

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<v Speaker 1>and place, just make sure things are matching.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have a pretty conservative in house legal team

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<v Speaker 2>that wants to bet everything and make sure that anything

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<v Speaker 2>that's potentially defammatory claim has documentation behind it, and so

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<v Speaker 2>that is a burden on us to make sure we

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<v Speaker 2>get that documentation in order to run the episodes. Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>And something else that this brings up is we hear

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<v Speaker 2>from a lot of people who want to write books

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<v Speaker 2>or want to tell their story publicly and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>have the documentation, or let's say they were so mad

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<v Speaker 2>they burned it all, something like that, they threw it away.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if someone's listening right now, and if you're

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<v Speaker 2>in a situation where you're feeling taken advantage of or

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<v Speaker 2>you're feeling like something's going really wrong, definitely. From where

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<v Speaker 2>I am right now producing these stories and getting them

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<v Speaker 2>legally vetted, I can say it's super important to keep

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<v Speaker 2>those receipts and keep those pieces of paper, those emails,

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<v Speaker 2>those interactions, those financial statements. That kind of stuff can

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<v Speaker 2>allow you to be able to legally tell your story

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<v Speaker 2>in the future. It can't be overstated how important it

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<v Speaker 2>is or.

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<v Speaker 1>As Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more

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<v Speaker 1>about our production process.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean a lot of times, in working with

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<v Speaker 2>people who've experienced any kind of trauma, there is a way,

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<v Speaker 2>a trauma informed way you're supposed to approach what they've experienced.

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<v Speaker 2>The sort of three principles are I believe you, it's

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<v Speaker 2>not your fault what happened, and you're not alone in

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<v Speaker 2>this feeling. So anytime we're interacting with the storytellers, we're

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<v Speaker 2>basically trying to take those three principles and adapt them

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<v Speaker 2>into a media framework, so setting like an interview or

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<v Speaker 2>in the finished product of the podcast. That's all because

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<v Speaker 2>we want to give the storytellers, who are the lifeblood

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<v Speaker 2>of this show, autonomy and respect throughout the whole process.

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<v Speaker 2>A little bit about what this looks like in practice

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<v Speaker 2>is that in the pre interview, we explain what the

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<v Speaker 2>process is going to look like. We talk to them

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<v Speaker 2>about the options of keeping it anonymous or using their name,

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<v Speaker 2>which is every storyteller's choice. Of course, if you use

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<v Speaker 2>your name, your burden of documentation to provide is hire.

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<v Speaker 2>When we're on the pre interview, I encourage everyone to

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<v Speaker 2>talk with their family and friends as they're deciding if

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<v Speaker 2>they want to tell this story, and we let them

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<v Speaker 2>know in that first call that we're going to request

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<v Speaker 2>documentation as part of the legal review. And then once

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<v Speaker 2>they consider all of that, if they want to participate

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<v Speaker 2>and we think that their story is the right for

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<v Speaker 2>the show, then we move on with an interview. I

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<v Speaker 2>tell everyone basically, you're in control of what you say

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<v Speaker 2>starting from here. If I ever ask you anything that

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<v Speaker 2>you don't want to answer, you don't have to answer it.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, what I want most is for them to

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<v Speaker 2>close their laptop that day feeling like they are proud

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<v Speaker 2>of how they represented themselves, and not feeling like they

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<v Speaker 2>disclose anything that they're going to stay awake good night

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<v Speaker 2>worrying about sometimes we do the interview in two sittings,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if someone is feeling really emotional. We might break

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<v Speaker 2>and come back another day. In terms of if someone's

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<v Speaker 2>ready to tell their story, I don't think of crying

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<v Speaker 2>as something that is a bad sign. I'm a crier.

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<v Speaker 2>I cry almost every day I am to.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's fine, you are I cried earlier today.

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<v Speaker 2>Great. So it doesn't mean that the person isn't ready

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<v Speaker 2>to tell their story. I really trust them when they

0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.800
<v Speaker 2>tell me I want to do this. And of course

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.240
<v Speaker 2>most of our stories come from people who wrote in

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.520
<v Speaker 2>to us, and we are never pushing anyone into telling

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.160
<v Speaker 2>a story, or are not in the business of convincing

0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.480
<v Speaker 2>people to tell these stories. After I do the interviews,

0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.680
<v Speaker 2>then Dre you come in and we work together with

0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.440
<v Speaker 2>our associate producer Kaitlin Golden to shape the stories. So

0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:05.959
<v Speaker 2>do you want to you want to take it from

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 2>here and talk a little bit about what happens once

0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:08.920
<v Speaker 2>we start shaping the stories.

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So you do the hours long interviews and then

0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.680
<v Speaker 1>you have a really good understanding from meeting with the

0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.560
<v Speaker 1>storytellers and having the pre interview of like what's important

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 1>to them to share and the journey that you want

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.040
<v Speaker 1>to go on. And so you present me and our

0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 1>associate producer Caitlin like a ton of material for us

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>to work with, and we talk about each bite that

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 1>you've taken out of the interview and how do we

0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 1>introduce it, like how do we write into it, how

0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.800
<v Speaker 1>do we write out of it? And we put it

0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.320
<v Speaker 1>in a linear fashion, and then we just write around

0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 1>it and.

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Then once we have the finished product. This is something

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I really love about Betrayal Weekly that many mini shows

0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.280
<v Speaker 2>do not do. We send the episode to the guest

0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.959
<v Speaker 2>before it's released. Yeah, and we want them to do

0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.280
<v Speaker 2>a fact checking path, but we also want them to

0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 2>do a red flag pass if something came out in

0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.359
<v Speaker 2>the interview that would really make them feel extremely uncomfortable,

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.600
<v Speaker 2>would make a material impact in their daily life if

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:14.400
<v Speaker 2>it were to go out and they don't want it

0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 2>to run. We respect people's feedback on that and we

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 2>work with them to change it before it goes out.

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm thinking of the example of stephaniepsode one right,

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.600
<v Speaker 2>who was the storyteller in our first two episodes. She

0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.800
<v Speaker 2>had read out loud some of the captions her husband

0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 2>or ex husband wrote online under photos of her and

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 2>when she heard it back out loud in her own voice,

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.440
<v Speaker 2>she said, I don't want that out there. Yeah, and

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 2>so we revised it so that you read it in

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 2>your narration and she was okay with that. It wasn't

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.680
<v Speaker 2>that she she didn't want it to be known. It's

0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.440
<v Speaker 2>that hearing her own voice say it was so uncomfortable

0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.440
<v Speaker 2>for her, and that was a small fix that was

0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 2>easy for us to do.

0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 1>to the storyteller when they hear it back. We're operating

0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 1>from a place of these are individuals that have gone

0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 1>through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:19.320
<v Speaker 1>reality have been either distorted or destroyed, and they're rebuilding,

0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.480
<v Speaker 1>and so it's really important for us to operate in

0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.280
<v Speaker 1>a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing. That

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:26.480
<v Speaker 1>is a huge part of it.

0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is something that I don't see in

0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 2>other podcasts. I've never worked on a show that has

0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.480
<v Speaker 2>allowed the storyteller to hear the episode before it goes out.

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 2>I think there's this idea that if you do that,

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:40.840
<v Speaker 2>then the person's not going to like it. They're going

0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 2>to have a bunch of changes. And I have to

0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.000
<v Speaker 2>say in the thirty two episodes we made that maybe

0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.760
<v Speaker 2>only happened once or twice, and then we worked through

0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>it right, and so it actually was more rewarding than

0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.240
<v Speaker 2>it was difficult, because at the end of the day,

0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.720
<v Speaker 2>I can know the day that it goes out that

0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 2>the person who's story worry this is is happy with

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:03.760
<v Speaker 2>the story.

0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 2>It's actually pretty easy to give people a chance to

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 2>review the content and just at the very least to

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 2>familiarize themselves with it before it goes out and other

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.680
<v Speaker 2>people start reaching out to them on strangers on the internet.

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Hear it because it sounds so different when it's the

0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.520
<v Speaker 2>episodes all produced than what the raw interviews sounded like. Yeah,

0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.040
<v Speaker 2>let's take a quick break, and then when we come back,

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I have a few more of our most commonly asked

0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:43.120
<v Speaker 2>listener questions. All Right, we're back, and I have a

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 2>few more of the most commonly asked questions we get.

0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.040
<v Speaker 2>And then a little later on we are going to

0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.479
<v Speaker 2>get to questions about specific episodes.

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, Dray.

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Another frequently asked question we have is how do you

0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.040
<v Speaker 2>decide which episodes are two parts and which are only

0:16:59.080 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 2>one part?

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 1>This is such a good question for the two parters.

0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:04.239
<v Speaker 1>A lot of them were like, oh wow, this has

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.120
<v Speaker 1>on that we don't feel like we could pack in

0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.159
<v Speaker 1>in under fifty minutes, So let's just approach it like

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:13.719
<v Speaker 1>two parts and gives us more freedom.

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. A lot of times it's dictated by how much

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.800
<v Speaker 2>good tape we have, Like with a Hannah, a lot

0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 2>of good tape, and it's hard to pair that down.

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.119
<v Speaker 1>But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, Yeah, because sometimes I

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:26.879
<v Speaker 1>think it's just as much as like the twists and

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>the turns of the story of like, you know, understanding

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 1>someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them,

0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.440
<v Speaker 1>the betrayal, and then it's ending and it's aftermath. Sometimes

0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.760
<v Speaker 1>there's like these incredible, beautiful scenes, like she talks about

0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.800
<v Speaker 1>being on the train from DC to Philly, and I

0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 1>particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 1>in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical,

0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 1>and this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.560
<v Speaker 1>loves you and cares about you, like and she goes,

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.720
<v Speaker 1>people are just the best, And it is this moment

0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 1>of like, you know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just

0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 1>sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah,

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.359
<v Speaker 1>and sometimes you just don't want to sacrifice it. And

0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:13.800
<v Speaker 1>that's why.

0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:16.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's a big part of what our

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 2>audience likes about this show is that we're not just

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.439
<v Speaker 2>focusing on the true crime and then this happened, and

0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.520
<v Speaker 2>that happened in the body buried in the basement and

0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 2>the you know. But I think a big part of

0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>the Betrayal listenership, they're here because they're getting something out

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 2>of these real people's stories. All Right. The last question

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.400
<v Speaker 2>that we have gotten a lot of, in fact, probably

0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.080
<v Speaker 2>the most common question we get in our inbox in

0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 2>our reviews. Do you know what it's going to be?

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Uh? Ads?

0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 5>Yes?

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Why are there so many ads on your podcast?

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what to saying, guys. I mean, this

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 1>is how we fund the show. And there's like a

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 1>formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.439
<v Speaker 1>ad markers of when you know, if your episode's X

0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.920
<v Speaker 1>amount of time long, like forty minutes long, there's ad

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.080
<v Speaker 1>breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever

0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.360
<v Speaker 1>grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.320
<v Speaker 1>we have ADS funds the show.

0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and the show is free. That's the trade off

0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.480
<v Speaker 2>with ads. The show is free. But if you love

0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.239
<v Speaker 2>the show and you don't want to hear ads, you

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 2>can subscribe to iHeart True Crime Plus. Sorry I have

0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:34.440
<v Speaker 2>to do a plug.

0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.399
<v Speaker 1>Good job, mo, you do my job for me.

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. I love podcasts. I listen constantly to podcasts,

0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.840
<v Speaker 2>and like with iHeart True Crime Plus, you also get

0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 2>dozens of other great true crime shows.

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.520
<v Speaker 1>It's three ninety nine a month, and so if you

0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 1>want an ad free experience, it's not just betrayal. It's

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.760
<v Speaker 1>a ton of shows. You know. If that means something

0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:59.119
<v Speaker 1>to you, to help support creators, support producers, that's the

0:19:59.119 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 1>way to go.

0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:00.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.680
<v Speaker 2>If you're already a subscriber, thank you. It really makes

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:04.240
<v Speaker 2>a difference.

0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 1>So much gratitude for that.

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay. I want to move on to questions about specific episodes.

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, and I'm going to do a little.

0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.919
<v Speaker 2>Recap of each episode because I know it's been a

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.520
<v Speaker 2>few months since listeners have heard some of these stories.

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:23.199
<v Speaker 2>So our first question is about the Torah episode. Torah

0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:27.399
<v Speaker 2>was episode number eight. She was a history professor. She

0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.720
<v Speaker 2>met a student named Aaron in her class, an adult student.

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>He was a veteran. He told her that he had

0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 2>had his foot blown off in an explosion while he

0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:42.240
<v Speaker 2>was serving in Afghanistan, and that he wore a prosthetic,

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.199
<v Speaker 2>but his death began the process of her learning that

0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.720
<v Speaker 2>the amputation was a lie, that he actually had both

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.880
<v Speaker 2>of his feet. So a listener wrote into us and said,

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.960
<v Speaker 2>how could anyone live with a person and have a

0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.240
<v Speaker 2>sexual relationship with them for three years and never see

0:20:59.520 --> 0:20:59.920
<v Speaker 2>their foot.

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.280
<v Speaker 1>I have a lot of opinions on this great I mean,

0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't judge Dora, but it's fair to just understand

0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 1>like the mechanics of it. But one of the things

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.360
<v Speaker 1>that Tora shared in her episode is she had very

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:19.879
<v Speaker 1>specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And

0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:27.320
<v Speaker 1>she also shared that he was really embarrassed by this

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.480
<v Speaker 1>part of his body. He always wore a sock and

0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.480
<v Speaker 1>he covered it up. And I think just you know,

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.240
<v Speaker 1>we talked about this a lot. Like perpetrators, they'll find

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.840
<v Speaker 1>the right person, the people that are understanding and trusting.

0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:44.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically.

0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from

0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.480
<v Speaker 1>a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 1>was embarrassed by it, and he wanted to cover it up.

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.240
<v Speaker 1>And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate

0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.800
<v Speaker 1>boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own I

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.639
<v Speaker 1>can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, there are the practical elements, like he

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:08.720
<v Speaker 2>not only wore a sock, but he also wore a

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.760
<v Speaker 2>hard plastic brace underneath the sock, so when he walked

0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.600
<v Speaker 2>it sounded like a prosthetic. And I mean he always

0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:18.639
<v Speaker 2>used a different shower that he said was easier for

0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.400
<v Speaker 2>him to get into. So there are logistics of how

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.720
<v Speaker 2>he actually pulled off the deception. But then there's I

0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.800
<v Speaker 2>think a deeper level too that it's more important to

0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.800
<v Speaker 2>understand than the logistics of how he covered this up,

0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:34.680
<v Speaker 2>is that he said it was an injury from a

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:38.800
<v Speaker 2>traumatic experience, an explosion that killed one of his friends

0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.080
<v Speaker 2>in the war, which didn't happen. And there is a

0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:47.040
<v Speaker 2>larger pattern about how these people who are manipulating others

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.960
<v Speaker 2>often work. There's this research psychologist doctor Jennifer Fried who

0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.040
<v Speaker 2>we talk a lot about yeah, and her work is

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:58.760
<v Speaker 2>foundational to understanding betrayal trauma. She coined the term betrayal trauma.

0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 2>She also coined this acronym DARVO DARVO, which is a

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.840
<v Speaker 2>manipulation technique and it stands for deny, attack and reverse

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>victim and offender. It's super powerful and effective. We see

0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.879
<v Speaker 2>this tactic all the time in the world, but in

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:22.120
<v Speaker 2>a case like Torah, Aaron was claiming that he had

0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:27.160
<v Speaker 2>this very sympathetic and very traumatic victim narrative of how

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 2>he lost his foot, And so oftentimes people who are

0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.960
<v Speaker 2>doing darvo are basically flipping the script of who the

0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:37.600
<v Speaker 2>victim is, and their victim narrative is compelling and is

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>powerful and emotional, right, and it's the kind of thing

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:44.119
<v Speaker 2>that no sympathetic, reasonable person would say, I don't believe

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.320
<v Speaker 2>you that you had a injury in the war, like

0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:50.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to push someone on that. And the

0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.520
<v Speaker 2>victim narratives can be so effective. I mean, we saw

0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:57.800
<v Speaker 2>it also with Tammy McCrary in that episode where her

0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>husband was a fake doctor. He had said that he

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>had two children, and the reason that Timmy could never

0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:06.920
<v Speaker 2>talk to his parents is that his children and his

0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 2>parents all died in a car accident. Right, That's not

0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the kind of story you are going to force someone

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you love to go into details about. You know, it's

0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.000
<v Speaker 2>a very effective manipulation tool. Yeah, okay. Our next question

0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:26.400
<v Speaker 2>about a specific episode is about John Yelle's story. John Yelle,

0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:30.159
<v Speaker 2>just as a reminder for listeners, she was married to

0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:33.639
<v Speaker 2>a man named Chad. They had a big family. Chad

0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.879
<v Speaker 2>was a financial advisor. She did all the homeschooling and

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:40.520
<v Speaker 2>all the labor in the house, and he did basically

0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>the money making. But over time he's behaving strangely. Weird

0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:47.679
<v Speaker 2>things are happening, and one night when she wakes up

0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:49.679
<v Speaker 2>in the middle of the night, he's not there and

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.160
<v Speaker 2>the car is gone, but you know, when she tries

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 2>to press him on it, he just gets mad at her.

0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:58.240
<v Speaker 2>Then years pass and nothing big happens. You know, things

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 2>are a little weird, and he's pulling away from her

0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.240
<v Speaker 2>and sleeping oftentimes in his office in the basement. And

0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:08.040
<v Speaker 2>then one night she wakes up to the FBI and

0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:12.160
<v Speaker 2>the state police having raided her house because it turns

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:17.399
<v Speaker 2>out Chad has kidnapped two of their family friends, an

0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:20.719
<v Speaker 2>elderly couple that they actually went to church with and

0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:24.680
<v Speaker 2>he had put them in a dungeon that he had built.

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.199
<v Speaker 2>He's not actually a financial advisor. He was planning on

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.320
<v Speaker 2>having them go into a bank and wire him a

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.640
<v Speaker 2>check for multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars, and thankfully

0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.239
<v Speaker 2>the FBI was called in very quickly, and then they

0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:41.200
<v Speaker 2>found the couple alive. So a listener wrote to us

0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:45.720
<v Speaker 2>and said, Chad leaves his home regularly at night, even

0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:49.199
<v Speaker 2>on vacation. But why to go, where to do? What?

0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Is there no other info on this disturbing habit other

0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:54.120
<v Speaker 2>than that it happened.

0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:58.960
<v Speaker 1>I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a

0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 1>mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those

0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:08.719
<v Speaker 1>children every day and is just focused on keeping the

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:13.199
<v Speaker 1>family afloat and is like just trying to keep her

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:18.679
<v Speaker 1>head above water. I don't think she even knows the

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 1>extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't

0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:26.200
<v Speaker 1>get the sense that she knows the full extent.

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 2>No, she doesn't, Like, she doesn't know where he actually

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>was that night, And even if she were to ask

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:35.040
<v Speaker 2>him after the fact, you know, call him in jail,

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:37.360
<v Speaker 2>which she does not communicate with him. But like, even

0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:38.919
<v Speaker 2>if she were to ask him, I don't think she

0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 2>believes she would get an honest answer, right. But you know,

0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I think this question of how did someone not know

0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 2>comes up a lot in our inbox and in our reviews,

0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:53.680
<v Speaker 2>and we often hear about these scenarios where something happens

0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>like I wake up in the night and my partner's

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:58.480
<v Speaker 2>out here, m h and it's off, but they don't

0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:02.919
<v Speaker 2>know how off it really is. And it's important to

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.560
<v Speaker 2>remember that in these episodes, we're hearing the whole story

0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:08.960
<v Speaker 2>told at once. We're hearing all the red flags strunk

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:09.800
<v Speaker 2>together in a row.

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:11.880
<v Speaker 1>It's true, but of course this was happening.

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, there were years, years exactly yours that were

0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:18.280
<v Speaker 2>totally fine, and they took family vacations and nothing went wrong.

0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:23.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, before we even started producing season one, my

0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:27.560
<v Speaker 1>producer for the Narrative limited run seris Carrie Hartman, and

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:31.119
<v Speaker 1>I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell and

0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 1>we went to go see him speak at the University

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:38.280
<v Speaker 1>of Pennsylvania and we were both really interested in this

0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:41.320
<v Speaker 1>whole concept of default truth, which is a concept that

0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:43.760
<v Speaker 1>you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the

0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:49.080
<v Speaker 1>truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then,

0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:52.840
<v Speaker 1>especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:56.360
<v Speaker 1>at detecting when someone's lying to you, and I think

0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:00.280
<v Speaker 1>sometimes we often worry about how did you not know

0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:04.120
<v Speaker 1>than the reality of this person did a bad thing.

0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.760
<v Speaker 1>There are bad people, people like Donielle's husband that are

0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 1>doing bad things, and I think your assumption is my

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 1>husband isn't capable of kidnapping to elderly people from our

0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 1>church and putting them in a dungeon, Like we're not

0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:23.399
<v Speaker 1>necessarily wired to do that line of thinking. Even if

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.880
<v Speaker 1>your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario,

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 1>he's blowing off seam in the car and driving around,

0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:34.399
<v Speaker 1>and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody, Like,

0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:37.560
<v Speaker 1>let's really talk about the reality here that's is not

0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:43.520
<v Speaker 1>just more often than not, you're rationalizing, and you're bringing

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:46.080
<v Speaker 1>in your historical information of the person that you think

0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 1>that they are based on a lifetime of experience and

0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 1>just evidence, and then you're making assumptions. And so it

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:57.440
<v Speaker 1>was important for us when we did this show, especially

0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 1>when we started Jen's season, to really explore this because

0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 1>these stories are born out of the scenarios where people

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:07.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't see it, people didn't see red flags.

0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think default truth is really important, and I

0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 2>think people want to believe that they are good at

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 2>detecting liars.

0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Because it makes makes you feel safe, Yes, makes you

0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:18.200
<v Speaker 1>feel safe.

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:22.080
<v Speaker 2>That feeling of I would have known is a self

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 2>soothing feeling of it couldn't happen to me because I

0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:27.640
<v Speaker 2>can tell, and I can tell when I hear this story.

0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:30.520
<v Speaker 2>But we're producing this story, and if you're living it,

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:35.120
<v Speaker 2>it's a different experience, right. Scary, it's really scary. Yeah,

0:29:36.360 --> 0:29:38.760
<v Speaker 2>all right, moving on to another question. We got about

0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 2>a specific episode, and it's the episode with doctor Carrie.

0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Carrie macvoy. She is a clinical psychologist. Her husband of

0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:52.440
<v Speaker 2>twenty five years, Brad, dies of cancer and she's devastated.

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>She's experiencing this grief trying to find a way to

0:29:56.920 --> 0:30:00.000
<v Speaker 2>move on. She decides she wants to throw herself back

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.400
<v Speaker 2>into dating. She meets a guy online who we in

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:08.480
<v Speaker 2>the episode call Caesar, and he is a Mexican American

0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:12.640
<v Speaker 2>dual citizen. He brings her into this world essentially of

0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 2>like Mexican real estate development, and she puts a lot

0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of Brad's life insurance money into developing a real estate

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.600
<v Speaker 2>company with Caesar, they get married, all of these things happen.

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 2>There are so many deceptions. You have to go listen

0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:28.840
<v Speaker 2>to both the parts to really get the full picture.

0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:32.080
<v Speaker 2>But we got quite a lot of comments on this

0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.400
<v Speaker 2>episode that there was one specific thing listeners were seeing

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:40.840
<v Speaker 2>that we did not say explicitly, but they wanted to

0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:44.320
<v Speaker 2>point out. And I think you know what I am

0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:44.880
<v Speaker 2>referring to.

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:48.360
<v Speaker 1>I know exactly what you're talking about. During Doctor carry

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:52.200
<v Speaker 1>McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:57.440
<v Speaker 1>getting really sick. She's really ill, and the listeners heard it,

0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:00.360
<v Speaker 1>picked up on it and noted something very specif. I

0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:02.280
<v Speaker 1>don't even know if I can mention it here, just

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 1>for legal reasons, right, So.

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Let me just play the section from the episode that

0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 2>we're referring to.

0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:13.320
<v Speaker 1>And then she began noticing other symptoms.

0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.960
<v Speaker 3>I have really severe diarrhea, real strange diarrhea that I'd

0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:21.719
<v Speaker 3>never seen before. It's water, it's clear water. It frightens

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:25.440
<v Speaker 3>me because I've never seen this before. And I had

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.000
<v Speaker 3>white lines like you hit your fingernails as a hammer.

0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:31.080
<v Speaker 3>I was searching for what causes white lines across all

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.600
<v Speaker 3>the fingernails. They're called niche lines.

0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:35.560
<v Speaker 1>And it only got worse.

0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:39.560
<v Speaker 3>My toenails were falling off, and my year and was

0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:42.120
<v Speaker 3>now dark like tea and frothing.

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 1>And like we said earlier in the episode, we go

0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:50.000
<v Speaker 1>through a rigorous legal process and all we could report

0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:53.600
<v Speaker 1>on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were,

0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 1>But we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically

0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:01.000
<v Speaker 1>flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show.

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 1>We didn't have medical records, Like to say that that

0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:10.240
<v Speaker 1>happened is defamatory, and there are certain things like that

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:14.120
<v Speaker 1>like we just cannot do. I mean, he was never arrested.

0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 1>And so for doctor Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 1>thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that,

0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.880
<v Speaker 1>but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.

0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. That comes up in many of our episodes,

0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 2>almost a half of them. We have a situation where

0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 2>there's something we want to include, but for legal reasons,

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>we can't. Okay, Dre, I have one more question that

0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:58.000
<v Speaker 2>is about a specific episode, and this one is something

0:32:58.000 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 2>that we heard from quite a few listeners, and I

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:03.040
<v Speaker 2>think there's a few things we need to say. So

0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:07.120
<v Speaker 2>this comes from the Chelsea episode. The Chelsea episode that

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:07.920
<v Speaker 2>was one of our.

0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Most intense ones, really intense m M.

0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:15.560
<v Speaker 2>She had been dating a guy named James.

0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:20.520
<v Speaker 1>And James was having issues with who she was talking to,

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:25.480
<v Speaker 1>even at work, and so it was seeming like the

0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:27.520
<v Speaker 1>walls were kind of closing in, like he was really

0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:31.240
<v Speaker 1>controlling every aspect of her communication with people, and there

0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:34.560
<v Speaker 1>was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone.

0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:37.480
<v Speaker 1>She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to

0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Ashley from season two, and she saw what she would

0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 1>assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt

0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:48.480
<v Speaker 1>like was see Sam child sexual abuse material. She found

0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 1>a photo. I don't really want to go into too

0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 1>much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she

0:33:54.240 --> 0:33:57.280
<v Speaker 1>couldn't get the picture out of her head and she

0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:02.080
<v Speaker 1>felt like there was something familiar to this photo and

0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:03.520
<v Speaker 1>she like woke up in the middle of the night,

0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:06.880
<v Speaker 1>so like, I know who these children are. James had

0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:10.319
<v Speaker 1>friends who had children and it could be their daughters.

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she did a Facebook deep dive. She was never

0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:18.200
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent sure, but she was feeling like it

0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:21.360
<v Speaker 2>probably was, and that's ultimately what led her to go

0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:25.160
<v Speaker 2>to the police and report it. So let me share

0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:28.840
<v Speaker 2>one of the questions that we got after the Chelsea episode.

0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:32.200
<v Speaker 2>This is from a listener who said in episode sixteen

0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:36.040
<v Speaker 2>about Chelsea, she mentions discovering that she thought she knew

0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:39.040
<v Speaker 2>who the girl in the picture was. Was the girl

0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:42.960
<v Speaker 2>found and taken out of the home. So this is

0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:46.560
<v Speaker 2>just one that's representative of I want to say ten

0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:49.160
<v Speaker 2>questions we got to the same effect, which is what

0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 2>happened to this little girl?

0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Is she safe? Is she okay?

0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>I wish we had the answer to that, and I

0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>wish that it was yes, she's safe.

0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:58.279
<v Speaker 1>There's so much we don't know about the photo. First

0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:01.440
<v Speaker 1>and foremost, Yeah, this could a photo he found on

0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:04.920
<v Speaker 1>social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:08.440
<v Speaker 1>bathing suits. So we don't really know. What we do know,

0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 1>and what we discussed with Chelsea is that when she

0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:16.560
<v Speaker 1>ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and

0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:20.960
<v Speaker 1>let them know this is who I think could be

0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:26.319
<v Speaker 1>the family who has children, and she left it in

0:35:26.360 --> 0:35:29.640
<v Speaker 1>their hands. And that was something that we didn't include

0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:31.880
<v Speaker 1>in the show, which.

0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Looking back on it, we should have You're definitely right

0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:37.279
<v Speaker 2>that we should have included that information that she did

0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 2>tell the police who she thought the child was. I mean,

0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:44.040
<v Speaker 2>the day the episode came out, we were starting to

0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:46.680
<v Speaker 2>get these questions in from listeners, and we frantically went

0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.279
<v Speaker 2>back to the script and we realized immediately, like, oh

0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:52.880
<v Speaker 2>my god, this one piece of tape didn't make the cut,

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.759
<v Speaker 2>and that would have clarified so much. And we had

0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.359
<v Speaker 2>been so focused on Chelsea's experience and Chelsea's story that

0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:02.680
<v Speaker 2>when we ended up recounting that moment when she finally

0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:05.239
<v Speaker 2>goes to the police, here's the piece of tape that

0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>we did include in the episode.

0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:09.600
<v Speaker 4>I met with the detective and we had a three

0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:13.759
<v Speaker 4>hour recorded interview. I showed him everything, told them the

0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:17.480
<v Speaker 4>same story that I'm telling you now. He was so validating,

0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:23.839
<v Speaker 4>and he said he told me, he's like, this isn't contraband,

0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:27.880
<v Speaker 4>but it is absolutely wrong, and you were doing absolutely

0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:31.080
<v Speaker 4>the right thing by reporting it. But I want to

0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:35.160
<v Speaker 4>manage your expectations. There are things I can try to do,

0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:39.520
<v Speaker 4>but this by itself isn't enough. And I was like,

0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:42.680
<v Speaker 4>I know, that's why it's taken me so long to

0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:43.080
<v Speaker 4>get here.

0:36:44.920 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 2>But then there was this one critical piece of information

0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and tape that we should have put in the episode.

0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.920
<v Speaker 2>It's in that same scene where she's reporting to the

0:36:53.960 --> 0:36:57.719
<v Speaker 2>police officer, finally reporting James, and this is the piece

0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 2>of tape we should have include in this episode.

0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:03.600
<v Speaker 4>But I told him, I'm like, this is who I

0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:08.520
<v Speaker 4>think this child is. And he took all that down

0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:11.839
<v Speaker 4>and he said he would look into it.

0:37:13.600 --> 0:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that would have been that would have helped a

0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:19.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of people. Yes, when hearing the episode, definitely lesson

0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.040
<v Speaker 1>learned column, Lesson learned column.

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:23.880
<v Speaker 2>And I know a lot of people who wrote in

0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:28.320
<v Speaker 2>about this episode are just concerned and they want something

0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:30.000
<v Speaker 2>more to be done. They want to make sure the

0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:34.640
<v Speaker 2>girl is okay. And so did Chelsea, you know, and

0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:38.040
<v Speaker 2>some idea of her, like going directly to James or

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:41.160
<v Speaker 2>going directly to those friends' house, like that is not

0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:44.040
<v Speaker 2>a safe option, That is physically not a safe option

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:44.600
<v Speaker 2>for her.

0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:49.040
<v Speaker 1>And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of

0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:54.040
<v Speaker 1>retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.

0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 2>He also threatened that he would release nude photos of

0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:01.279
<v Speaker 2>her that she had consentually sent him and that he

0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:04.400
<v Speaker 2>said he had deleted, but he had kept he threatened

0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to send those to her colleagues. So she was feeling

0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:10.239
<v Speaker 2>pretty scared of this person.

0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:14.839
<v Speaker 1>Right, and so I think she felt safest letting law

0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:20.239
<v Speaker 1>enforcement do what they needed to do, and she did

0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:21.440
<v Speaker 1>the right thing by reporting it.

0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:27.320
<v Speaker 2>She did everything she could have while also keeping herself safe. Yeah,

0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:30.520
<v Speaker 2>all right, those are all of the questions I have.

0:38:31.200 --> 0:38:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:37.799
<v Speaker 1>from the listeners, no matter what it looks like, good, bad,

0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:40.799
<v Speaker 1>the ugly, like, we really do want to know, you know,

0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 1>especially if they are like gaps in history where people

0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.719
<v Speaker 1>were asking we either have an answer or you just

0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:48.520
<v Speaker 1>taught us something that we didn't think about. So we

0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:49.480
<v Speaker 1>really appreciate it.

0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:53.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we love engaging with listeners. We love it when

0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 2>people send in questions and they send in commentary. One

0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:00.640
<v Speaker 2>of my favorite emails we got this year with someone

0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:02.680
<v Speaker 2>who wrote in with feedback. And then I'm just going

0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:05.400
<v Speaker 2>to read from I think one of the most salient

0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:09.320
<v Speaker 2>points quote one pain point from you and listening is

0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 2>when you focus on survivors who quote bound Love Again.

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Donielle's story is case in point. Then she goes on

0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:19.479
<v Speaker 2>to say it frustrates me when others tell me I'll

0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:22.439
<v Speaker 2>find love again or I should date again. I want

0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:24.879
<v Speaker 2>to heal and build my self esteem, and I want

0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:28.080
<v Speaker 2>to hear more stories about people who come back from

0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:30.600
<v Speaker 2>this and build a business, or go find an incredible

0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:33.919
<v Speaker 2>and satisfying hobby, start traveling, or anything other than jump

0:39:33.960 --> 0:39:36.279
<v Speaker 2>into another relationship and hope for the best with a

0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:39.359
<v Speaker 2>new person. I hope you'll keep this in mind when

0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 2>making future episodes.

0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:47.719
<v Speaker 1>I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode

0:39:47.800 --> 0:39:52.480
<v Speaker 1>since me too, And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:54.640
<v Speaker 1>path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah,

0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:57.880
<v Speaker 1>but what I really thought was fascinating is being careful

0:39:57.880 --> 0:39:58.880
<v Speaker 1>about the language.

0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I think she was writing into us to

0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:07.040
<v Speaker 2>bring our attention to language, like, you know, so and

0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:09.759
<v Speaker 2>so found love again, and it's like, well, what do

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:11.279
<v Speaker 2>you call that first relationship?

0:40:11.480 --> 0:40:11.719
<v Speaker 5>Love?

0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:15.319
<v Speaker 1>Using the right language is really important. So I'm very

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:17.200
<v Speaker 1>grateful for that person to write in.

0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. All this to say in bringing up this email

0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.200
<v Speaker 2>we got is that you know, we're real people making

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:26.319
<v Speaker 2>this show, and we are grappling with these big questions

0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:29.799
<v Speaker 2>every day, and we love hearing from listeners who have

0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, thoughtful and constructive commentary about the way we

0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:35.120
<v Speaker 2>present these stories. I think it makes the show better.

0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:40.640
<v Speaker 2>So we're finished with these weekly episodes for the next

0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.600
<v Speaker 2>few months. We are going to be back in August

0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:49.000
<v Speaker 2>with new weekly episodes. What is coming up next on

0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:50.080
<v Speaker 2>the Feed? Do you want to talk about it?

0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Drey, I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I

0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:56.800
<v Speaker 1>think it's been really successful and I absolutely love this show.

0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:03.400
<v Speaker 1>We air season five of Betrayal the limited run on

0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:06.960
<v Speaker 1>May twenty second. It's about a woman and her family

0:41:07.040 --> 0:41:10.160
<v Speaker 1>of Colorado Springs. You know, we're gonna hear that story

0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 1>over eight to ten weeks, and then shortly after that

0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:17.239
<v Speaker 1>we'll go back into the weekly series, where it's a

0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:20.960
<v Speaker 1>different story every week or every other week, but in between,

0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:24.200
<v Speaker 1>So from now through May twenty second, we have a

0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:27.840
<v Speaker 1>ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on.

0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:31.279
<v Speaker 1>You've been working really hard on mo. We have a

0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:35.600
<v Speaker 1>great bonus episode with a woman named doctor Kate Truett,

0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:41.000
<v Speaker 1>and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling

0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:46.279
<v Speaker 1>can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have listener essays

0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.640
<v Speaker 1>that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:53.839
<v Speaker 1>resilience in the face of devastating betrayal, and we have

0:41:55.000 --> 0:41:58.400
<v Speaker 1>a woman named Andrea dunlop her story. It's kind of

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:01.360
<v Speaker 1>like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter

0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:05.640
<v Speaker 1>to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited

0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:07.839
<v Speaker 1>to see what people think of the content that I'll

0:42:07.880 --> 0:42:09.320
<v Speaker 1>be coming out in the next few weeks.

0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, Dre, I'm gonna scurry back behind the curtain.

0:42:13.920 --> 0:42:16.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad everyone got to meet you though. You're

0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the nuts and bolts of this and so it's really

0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:23.279
<v Speaker 1>great for the listeners to hear the people that make

0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:25.880
<v Speaker 1>the show work, and you do great work. Mo, so

0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:26.279
<v Speaker 1>thank you.

0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:29.839
<v Speaker 2>Thanks stray. I feel honored to get to work with

0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:34.600
<v Speaker 2>a team that is this thoughtful and mission driven and talented,

0:42:35.160 --> 0:42:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and also to get to work with individuals who are

0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:41.920
<v Speaker 2>trusting us with some of the worst experiences of their

0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:44.719
<v Speaker 2>life and trusting us to tell those with respect and care.

0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:46.080
<v Speaker 2>It's really an honor.

0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh all right, bye bye.

0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:55.240
<v Speaker 5>If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:58.160
<v Speaker 5>team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email

0:42:58.280 --> 0:43:03.080
<v Speaker 5>us at Betrayal Pod at gmailed that's Betrayal Pod at

0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:07.239
<v Speaker 5>gmail dot com We're grateful for your support. One way

0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 5>to show support is by subscribing to our show on

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.520
<v Speaker 5>Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:15.919
<v Speaker 5>Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank

0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:19.400
<v Speaker 5>you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production

0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:22.200
<v Speaker 5>of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in

0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:26.040
<v Speaker 5>partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by

0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:29.600
<v Speaker 5>Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me

0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:34.480
<v Speaker 5>Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced

0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:39.200
<v Speaker 5>by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden.

0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:43.880
<v Speaker 5>Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio

0:43:44.000 --> 0:43:47.640
<v Speaker 5>editing and mixing by Matt Delvechio, Additional editing.

0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Support from Tanner Robbins.

0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:54.440
<v Speaker 5>Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by

0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:58.120
<v Speaker 5>Mob Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the

0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:06.960
<v Speaker 5>iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast wherever you get your podcasts.