1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to talking politics. 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: We're headed into the holidays and as my husband said 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: this week, we all have a real case of senioritis. 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: Does it feel like doesn't feel like all of a sudden, 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: the holidays were here and we're rushing to get our 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 2: cards out and our gifts wrapped, and yet this week 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 2: is dragged and dragged and dragged. We're almost there, and 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: then we have a nice chunk of time. Off reminder, 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: we had a new Off the Cup interview post this 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: week with comedian a partner Nancherla. 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Which is terrific. 12 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: We talk a lot about the holidays and mental health, 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: so go check that out. 14 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: And a new talk and coffee this week. Go check 15 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: that out. 16 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: And reminder special new Year's Off the Cup featuring many 17 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: of the year's best guests answering the all important question 18 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: when is it iced? 19 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: Coffee season again? 20 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: That posts on New Year's Eve, so check that out too. 21 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: But now are our last talk in politics of twenty twenty. 22 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: Five and what a year it was. 23 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: I wrote about this for sub Stack, so you can 24 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: go check it out more there. But I think this year, 25 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: more than anything else, was marked by intra party fights. 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: I can't remember a year in which both parties were 27 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: fighting internally as much as they did this year. Right 28 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: on the left, I'll remind you you had in the 29 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: beginning of the year Democrats coming for Biden. You had 30 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris, who wrote that book about her campaign. She 31 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: took some swings at Biden. You had rank and file 32 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: Dems and dem voters coming out against dem leadership after 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: the government shut down. Right that came Jeffries Chuck Schumer, 34 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: with a number of elected Dems calling for both of 35 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: them to step down. 36 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: That was something. 37 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: You had Democrats against Zoronmumdani. Even though Mamdani was the 38 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: Democratic nominee for mayor of New York City, Schumer never 39 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: endorsed him. Jeffries waited until the last minute, and even 40 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: then barely endorsed him. You had progressive Democrats fighting with 41 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: moderate Democrats. You had Democrats against Israel and other Democrats 42 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: who support Israel. 43 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: It was a bloodbath on the left. 44 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: And later in a minute, we're going to talk to 45 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: a former Democratic congressman about the latest thing that's tearing 46 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: up the party, the DNC's decision not to release the 47 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: findings of their twenty twenty four autopsy. But over on 48 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: the right. It was just as bad this year. Remember 49 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: you had Elon versus Trump. They both pushed the nuclear 50 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 2: option on each other earlier. This year, you had women 51 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: in Congress against Trump, right, Nancy Mays, Marchorie Taylor Green, 52 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: Lauren Bobert defied Trump on the Epstein files, have demanded 53 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: that they be released. Speaking of March, she came out 54 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: swinging against Trump this year on Epstein, but also on 55 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: America First and affordability. 56 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: In the shutdown in healthcare, that was. 57 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: Wild Trump's FBI fought with Trump's doj Cash, Mattel Dan Bongino. 58 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: They went after Pam Bondi, and then so did Suzie 59 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: Wilds and that and that Vanity Fair piece. That's highly 60 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: unusual inside and administration. You get at least Defana going 61 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: after Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House. Finally, you have 62 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: the fight inside Megamedia, Megan Kelly, Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, 63 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: Nick Fuents, Candice Owens, Erica Kirk. That's been a wild 64 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: one to watch now. Truly, that's a lot of intra 65 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: party fighting, and on the one hand, I think it 66 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: speaks to how disillusioned people are with our political system. 67 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: Nothing seems to be working to the point that Dems 68 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: are fighting Dems, Magas fighting MAGA because they know how 69 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: disliked they all are by voters. But on the other hand, 70 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: it makes me wonder if fighting has just become the point. 71 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: It's not about solving problems or good governance. It's just 72 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: about picking fights and then grand standing over them, virtue 73 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: signaling to whomever your audience is, and you know, self survival. 74 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: Before we get to our guest, I want to talk 75 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: about that last fight I mentioned, the one inside Mega 76 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: Media because last night Ben Shapiro spoke at Turning Point 77 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: USA as America and he railed against Megan Kelly, Candice Owens, 78 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: Nick Quentes, and Tucker Carlson for their cowardice. And in 79 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: case you haven't been following all of this, Ben's been 80 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: calling out some of his peers, in some cases his friends, 81 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: for things like platforming neo Nazis and spreading baseless and 82 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: dangerous conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's death and who they 83 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: think was involved in it. 84 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: Take a listen to a short clip from that. 85 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: The conservative movement is also in danger from Charlatans who 86 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: claimed to speak in the name of principle, but actually 87 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: traffic in conspiracism and dishonesty, who offer nothing but bile 88 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: and despair, who seek to undermine fundamental principles of conservatism 89 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: by championing enervation and grievance. These people are frauds, and 90 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,799 Speaker 3: they are grifters, and they do not deserve your time, 91 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: and they are something worse than that, a danger to 92 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: the only movement capable of stopping the left from wrecking 93 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: the country wholesale. 94 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: Okay, he went on, and he named names. It was 95 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: an act of courage for sure. Calling out your own people, 96 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: some of whom were speaking on that same stage on 97 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: that same day, for poisoning the conservative movement from within, 98 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: is I think a really important thing to do. It 99 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: isn't easy, it isn't comfortable, it isn't always profitable, but 100 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: it's really really important. It's why I've been doing it 101 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: for like the past ten years. People like Candice and 102 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: Megan and Nick and Tucker need to be called out 103 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: because what they're doing is corrosive and sick. Pimping out 104 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: and whitewashing Nazis is corrosive and sick. 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: Wondering whether Jeffrey Epstein is. 106 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 2: Really a pedophile because he likes fifteen year old girls 107 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 2: and not five year old girls. 108 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: Is corrosive and sick. 109 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: Telling your massive audience that the Jews or the French 110 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: Foreign Legion, or the Egyptians, or members of Turning Point 111 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: or Erica Kirk herself are in some way responsible for 112 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk's death, or at least covering it up as 113 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: corrosive and sick. These people are dangerous and they're corrupting 114 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: their audiences for money and clicks. So good on Ben 115 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: Shapiro for calling these people out. But here's the problem 116 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: with us, and I want you to listen to that 117 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 2: clip one more time. 118 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: The conservative movement is also in danger from Charlatans who 119 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: claim to speak in the name of principle but actually 120 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: traffic in conspiracism and dishonesty, who offer nothing but bile 121 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 3: and despair, who seek to undermine fundamental principles of conservatism 122 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 3: by championing enervation and grievance. These people are frauds, and 123 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 3: they are grifters, and they do not deserve your time, 124 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: and they are something worse than that, a danger to 125 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: the only movement capable of stopping the left from wrecking 126 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 3: the country wholesale. 127 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Okay, Like, who's the elephant in the room here. 128 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: He is applying all of this critique deservedly to Tucker 129 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: and Meghan and Candace and Neck. 130 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: What about Trump? 131 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: Ben says, they Megan, Tucker, Candice Neck, They're Charlatans who 132 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: claim to speak in the name of principle but actually 133 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: traffic in conspiracism and dishonesty. 134 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: That's Trump. 135 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: Ben says, they offer nothing but bile and despair. 136 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: That's Trump too. 137 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: Ben says they seek to undermine fundamental principles of conservatism 138 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: by championing enervation and grievance. 139 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: Yep, that's Trump again. 140 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: Ben says they're frauds and they're grifters, and they do 141 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: not deserve your time. 142 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: Trump, Trump, Trump. 143 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: While they're all fighting each other, none of them will 144 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: say the obvious thing, which is that all of this grifting, 145 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: all of the fake grievance peddling, all of the political revenge, born, 146 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: all of the conspiracy theories, the jettising of conservatism to 147 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: instead push garbage lies, sinking to the lowest common denominator, 148 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: to defend neo Nazis and protect pedos. That all started 149 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: with Donald Trump. Since twenty fifteen, he's been trafficking, and 150 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: all the garbage that Ben accuses his friends of it 151 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: trickled down to Magamedia, who made the choice, the calculation, 152 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: not to oppose this, but to lean in to feed 153 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: their audiences more and more of it, to the point 154 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: where they aren't even talking about policy anymore. It's just 155 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: this personality nonsense that changes your life, not one bit 156 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: to get you addicted to their drugs of outrage and conspiracy. 157 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: So to pretend this came from nowhere, that there isn't 158 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: someone at the top to blame for this insanity, it's 159 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: intellectually dishonest. It's exposing the disingenuousness of this supposedly courageous 160 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: act of defiance. So great to call out Megan and 161 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: Tucker and Nick and Candice, But if you're not going 162 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that Trump is ultimately responsible for this, that Trump, 163 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: more than anyone else, is threatening the health of conservatism, 164 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: that Trump is leading America down this dark path, I'm sorry. 165 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you have no credibility here. 166 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: I'm all for having a come to Jesus moment realizing 167 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: you can no longer abide the dangerous and irresponsible bile 168 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: that your friends and colleagues are putting out into the bloodstream. 169 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: But that project should have started ten years ago with 170 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. All right, I want to get my guests 171 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: take on this, but also the latest out of the DNC. 172 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: So let's bring him in. Max Rose is senior advisor 173 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: to Vote Vets. He served in the House representing New 174 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: York's eleventh Congressional district from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. 175 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: He was a Biden White House Advisor. He served in 176 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: Afghanistan and the Army, where he was awarded a Bronze 177 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: Star and a purple Heart. He's also my friend and 178 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: colleague at CNN, where we do a bunch of TV together. 179 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: Welcome Max, Hey, my friend, how are you good. 180 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 4: Good to see It's really good to see you too. 181 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: I want to talk about what's going on in the 182 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: right and then we're going to move on to what's 183 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: going on in your party. What do you make of 184 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 2: this battle inside of Magamedia. 185 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: It's not just Magamedia, it's Maga incarnate, you know. One 186 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 4: of the strengths politically speaking, it was a moral wasn't 187 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 4: a moral strength, but one of the political strengths to 188 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 4: Donald Trump even just a year ago, was basically that 189 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 4: he unified his party with just a force of personality. 190 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 4: It wasn't about ideological consistency, it wasn't about honoring campaign promises. 191 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 4: But it was if Donald Trump wants something, so it goes. 192 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 4: And that actually applied from Mike Lohler to Marjorie Taylor Green. 193 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 4: We've seen that just even over the last ninety days, 194 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 4: completely break down in front of our very eyes. Just 195 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 4: a few days ago, for Modern Republicans signed on to 196 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 4: a discharge petition to force an extension, a three year 197 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 4: extent of the Obamacare subsidies against Donald Trump's wishes and 198 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 4: Speaker Johnson's wishes, and of course a month ago, on 199 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 4: the other side of the maga ideological spectrum, Marjorie Taylor Green, 200 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: Lauren Bourbert, and Nancy Mace and several others stood up 201 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 4: and on the Epstein files, yeah, and said, I don't 202 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 4: care what you want, I don't care what you say. 203 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 4: This is what we're gonna do now, all of these folks, 204 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 4: and we can throw the people who you referenced earlier 205 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 4: as well into this. They didn't just finally find salvation. 206 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 4: They didn't just turn into good people. They're politicians or 207 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 4: they're something like that. And so what they're seeing is 208 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: they're seeing data and they're seeing trends that speaks to 209 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 4: a newfound political weakness on the part of Donald Trump, 210 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 4: and they're exploiting that. Donald Trump in the end, And 211 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: this is twenty twenty six talking is an eighty year 212 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 4: old lame duck president. Does that sound familiar? Sounds familiar 213 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 4: to me? 214 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: Mm hm. 215 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 4: And everybody's gonna start thinking and acting about twenty twenty nine. Yeah, 216 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 4: and they're gonna start turning on this president, particularly because 217 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: his poll run numbers are just horrible right now. Yeah, 218 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 4: he's not following up by any of his campaign promises. 219 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's actively telling his own voters, like the 220 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: things you said you care about, the things I told 221 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 2: you I cared about, it's a hoax, it's a scam. 222 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. The economy is great, it's crazy. 223 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: And you know, as I've pointed out a lot on 224 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: this podcast and elsewhere, that's why DEM's lost because they 225 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: looked at voters and said the economy is great, and 226 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: don't believe. 227 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: Your lion eyes. 228 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: And now Donald Trump's doing the same thing, which is 229 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: political malpractice. 230 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering what you think. 231 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 2: I don't think the left has as powerful a group 232 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,599 Speaker 2: of like media influencers, you know, when you add like 233 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: Joe Rogan and all the Manisphere podcasters to you know, 234 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: Candice Bend et cetera. There's just nothing on the left 235 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: that speaks directly to voters the way these people are. 236 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: And it's why I think the things that they say, 237 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 2: whether it's about Nazis or Epstein or Charlie Kirk or Jews, like, 238 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 2: it's not just fringy, basement d subculture stuff. These people 239 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: are picking presidents. Like Erica Kirk and Tucker Carlson are 240 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: out there championing jd Vance for president, and they will 241 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: likely be hugely influential voices in twenty twenty eight. And 242 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 2: I don't think like the pod save guys have the 243 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: same cachet, Like tell me if. 244 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: I'm wrong, Max, I don't want them to okay and SayMore, well, yes, fine, 245 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 4: the right can have Erica Kirk and some of these 246 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: other folks, but it's not like they don't have Joe Rogan. 247 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 4: They don't some of these other podcasters who I think 248 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 4: immediately after twenty twenty four, we thought, oh, these are 249 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 4: Maga like influences. They're not. They're just going where the 250 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 4: majority of Americans are, and the majority of Americans at 251 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 4: that point were in opposition to You. 252 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: Don't think they were guiding the majority of Americans. You 253 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: think that they followed the majority. 254 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 4: Of American I do. 255 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: Wow, that's really interesting. 256 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 4: I absolutely do, as demonstrated by the fact that Joe 257 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: Rogan was a Bernie supporter at one point. Like, it's 258 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 4: not these folks are business people, they are nothing. 259 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: They're following the money. 260 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 4: I get that right, and they are so I actually 261 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 4: applaud Democrats who are not because what the reason why 262 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 4: I don't like this narrative for the Democrats is that 263 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 4: if you assume that Joe Rogan and some of these 264 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 4: other bros are just fully own subsidiaries of the Republican Party, 265 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 4: then you don't want to go play on that turf. Rather, 266 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: if you look at them as up for grabs, then 267 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 4: you'll go on their platforms as well as amongst many 268 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 4: many others. Do I think think that you know, Erica 269 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 4: Kirk is yeah, no, see that's a lost cause, right, 270 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: and you should. But that's such a small minority. That's 271 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 4: that that's thirty percent, that's twenty percent. That that's like 272 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 4: the vote that. 273 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: Twenty thirty percent wins an election. What do you mean 274 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: know that? 275 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 4: Not in a pre look. That is a base mobilization issue. 276 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 4: So there's three different types of things that matter in 277 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 4: an election. There's three decisions that matter. There's the decision 278 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: of your own base to vote. Yeah, there's the or not. 279 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 4: There's the decision of the Republican your opponent's base to 280 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 4: vote or not. And then there's the persuadables decision to 281 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 4: vote or not. Erica Kirk only influences one third of that. 282 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 4: It's it's important, but it's the thing that Democrats can't influences. 283 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: No, no, of course not, of course not. 284 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: But when Democrats are the project for Democrats will be 285 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: winning back of their own voters who they lost twenty 286 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: four So they're not starting from the same place as Republicans. 287 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 4: Well, well now, certainly they're looking like they're on stronger footing. 288 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: If you think about what Donald Trump ran on and 289 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 4: the ways in which he is now failing on each 290 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 4: of those promises. I'd must rather be the Democratic Party 291 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 4: than the Republican Party right now. In terms of just 292 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 4: basic political I'm sure he was any day, any day 293 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: of the week. Ultimately the bag of movement. And this 294 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 4: is the story of the last decade. The MAGA movement 295 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: is not a governing ideology. They're not a governing party, 296 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 4: and they've only been electorally successful for the most part 297 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 4: when they're in the minority and they're bashing the people 298 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 4: in power. They have never been able to build on 299 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: their majority. Donald Trump never has one re election. Donald 300 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 4: Trump has never performed well in a midterm year. 301 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: I mean they in twenty twenty four, Republicans won more 302 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: Hispanics than they ever had. Donald Trump won a lot 303 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: of first time voters he had never won. He won 304 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: the young people. They built on a majority when Democrats 305 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: were losing their own coalection coalition. 306 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: And this doesn't pay like make me happy to say, no, 307 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: we have to deal in some facts. 308 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 4: We're agreen with each other. In twenty twenty four, MAGA 309 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 4: wasn't in power, MAGA wasn't in the White House, and 310 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 4: so MAGA was running against something and that's just the 311 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 4: same as in twenty sixteen or twenty fifteen. But they 312 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 4: were absolutely unable to prevent a blue wave in twenty 313 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: eighteen or to win reelection in twenty twenty. So we've 314 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 4: seen this cycle where they're actually at their strongest when 315 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 4: they can talk in taglines and trash what's going on. 316 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 4: So what does that mean for Democrats, Well, it means 317 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 4: we're Democrats that they have to get much better at governing. 318 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 4: We have to get much better at actually governing. We 319 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 4: can't just let kind of the whims of you know, 320 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: wanting to make sure that we're all is on the 321 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 4: right side of this and the right side of that 322 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 4: the dictate how we govern because in some ways, like 323 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 4: I actually think the American people, for better or for worse, 324 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 4: will hold Democrats to a higher standard. 325 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: No, they do, one hundred percent. And I've said this 326 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: for a long time. You're absolutely right. Trump voters holds 327 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: him to a very low standard, right, and they held 328 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: Biden and Harris and Democrats to an incredibly high standard totally. 329 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: And part of that is due to the fact that 330 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 4: Democrats are a party that are saying that we want 331 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: to be proactive, right, we want to do things and 332 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 4: use the tools of government to address social ills. Right. 333 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 4: And that's a great thing, But no one's going to 334 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 4: trust you to give them more of your tax revenue 335 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 4: or to approve of a new program if you can't 336 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 4: keep the border straight. But if they see anarchy on 337 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: the border, or if they see the cost of their 338 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 4: groceries go thirty. 339 00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. 340 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 4: These things aren't going to work. Whereas the I think Maggi, 341 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 4: the Maggi ideology at its course of destructive ideology, Well, I. 342 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: Don't disagree all. It won't surprise you to learn I 343 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: totally agree. I want to talk about the DNC with you. 344 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: As you know, the DNC did what Republicans did in 345 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: twenty twelve when we were sent to the woodshed. I 346 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: worked on that autopsy. It was painful, but it was necessary, 347 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: and ultimately it was incredibly productive. It gave us all 348 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: something to talk about. We all knew what our weaknesses were. 349 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: Now Trump came along and torched it, but you know, 350 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: it was an important thing for us to do. And similarly, 351 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: Dems needed to do this after losing in twenty twenty four. 352 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: How did it happen that they lost to a convicted 353 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: criminal who swept all seven swing states. So they did it. 354 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: They did the autopsy, and they waited until after the election. 355 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: They wanted to wait, which I get not really a 356 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: profile and courage, but I get it. But now fresh 357 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: report from the New York Times that the DNC is 358 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: scrapping the report, deciding not to publish it. 359 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: Here's what the Times wrote. Ken Martin, the chairman. 360 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: Of the DNC, said on Thursday that he decided to 361 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: not publish the report that he'd ordered months ago into 362 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: what went wrong for the Democratic Party last year. Mister 363 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: Martin will instead keep the findings under seal. He believes 364 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: that looking back so publicly and painfully at the past 365 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: would prove counterproductive for a party as it tries next 366 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 2: year to take back power in Congress. 367 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: Max. What the F I can't get over how dumb 368 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: this is. 369 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: It makes the DNC look scared and weak and afraid 370 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: of its own people. 371 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 4: Maybe also a bit irrelevant. Yeah, yeah, So going back 372 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 4: to twenty twelve, it's actually so interesting you brought that up, because, yes, 373 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 4: the Republican Party did this massive analysis, and what the 374 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 4: large conclusion was is that the party has to get 375 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 4: better at going after independent persuadables. So some of the 376 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 4: conclusions in twenty twelve were, we need to temper our 377 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 4: stuff on immigration, we need to maybe temper some of 378 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: our stuff on tax cuts for the wealthiest cer at 379 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 4: least temper some of our stuff about proactive aggressive warfare 380 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 4: abortion abortion too. 381 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: And get what Donald Trump and I don't. 382 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 4: Believe Donald Trump actually makes like purposefully analytical conclusions, but 383 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 4: he's almost like a shark in the sense that he 384 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 4: does things based off instinct. The conclusion that Donald Trump 385 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 4: his actions, I think poor two, was that the answer 386 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 4: was an enhanced based mobilization. Forget about the independence and 387 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 4: it's just mobilized. 388 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: That he didn't care about it at all. 389 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: And what we did it and we talked about it 390 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: and we released it totally. 391 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 4: And look, I can tell you what the DNC analysis is. 392 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 4: I can tell you us. 393 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: What they find. 394 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: You'll need a long term mckensey analysis to tell you 395 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 4: what happened. The border was a disaster, Inflation was an 396 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 4: utter disaster. The White House was absolutely unwilling to act 397 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: on or talk about any of those in a cogent, 398 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 4: basic human way that anyone can understand. And Harris was 399 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: unwilling to turn her back on those policy and campaign 400 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 4: failures and missteps. 401 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: So why not just come out and say that we 402 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: know it. I know it, you know it, why not 403 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 2: just say it? 404 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 4: They should. I'm not telling you that they should do it, 405 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 4: but I'm just telling I'm telling you that it's not 406 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 4: like there's no mystery here. Yeah. So the point though, 407 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 4: for the party right now is going to be to 408 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 4: what degree do you act like this shy rear looking 409 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: party going backward, and or to what degree do you 410 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 4: kind of stand up say something that doesn't look poll tested, 411 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 4: you know, kind of say, let's school you if you're 412 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: you know, if you don't like it, and see how 413 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 4: that turns out these new voters. That breaks polls. Because 414 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 4: the story of the twenty first century and politics this 415 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 4: is that our best politicians are the ones that break polls. 416 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 4: Our best movements are the ones that break polls. That's 417 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 4: what Obama did in twenty twelve. That's why I pissed 418 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 4: the Republicans off so much, because they thought they were 419 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 4: going to win and all these people turned out who 420 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 4: they never thought were going to turn out, right, And 421 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 4: that's what we have to learn how to do again. 422 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 4: And you're not going to do that with fancy analysis. 423 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 4: I think you will do that though, by being really 424 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 4: really bold, really bold. 425 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: Well, I agree, And what worries me. Now is what 426 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: you and I were just talking about. The Trump administration 427 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 2: is imploding. We're watching it before our eyes. We had 428 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: Steve Israelan. He thinks Dems will not only win the House, 429 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: but maybe even the Senate, and I agree in twenty 430 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: six and I agree Trump is the weakest he's ever been. 431 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: But Democrats still need to earn votes. And I worry 432 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: that the worst Trump does, the less they'll feel like 433 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: they need to present a case and make here's our agenda, 434 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: here's what we have to offer, because it just gets 435 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: easier and easier to let Trump hang himself and voters 436 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: still they still need voters to come back to them 437 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: and not sit home, which is what most voters do 438 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: in midterms. 439 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 4: But that there was some of your opening monologue that 440 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: pointed to a little bit of kind of this twenty 441 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 4: twenty five Dems in disarray narrative, or at least something 442 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 4: about these internal battles that are happening in the party. 443 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: I'm really happy about that. I think it's great. Yeah, 444 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 4: because when we annoint people and when we have our 445 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 4: ducks in a row and everything, everyone become this is 446 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 4: our person's two years out, it's all settled. 447 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: We fuck it up badness. Yeah. 448 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, Like I love the idea of ideological combat 449 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 4: in the party. I love the idea of a noisy, 450 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 4: messy primary. I think it's a wide open field. I 451 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 4: don't think we're dealing with any more of the traditional 452 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 4: kind of left versus moderate notions in the party. I 453 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 4: think that that's kind of gone. I think it's really 454 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 4: going to be a question of new verses old and 455 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 4: who is willing to, like, you know, throw out not 456 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 4: only creative ideas from a policy perspective, but creative ideas 457 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 4: from a mobilization perspective about how are you going to 458 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: stick it to the people that are screwing us right now? 459 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 4: Like I want to hear about how that Trump ballroom 460 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 4: will be named the Obama Ballroom. I want to hear 461 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 4: someone coming out talking about how they are going to 462 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 4: make sure that Elon Musk do all the things that 463 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 4: he's doing. Yeah, that Elon Musk either doesn't win a 464 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 4: contract or the majority of his space related adventures are nationalized. Like, 465 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 4: I want to hear someone and I don't consider myself 466 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 4: some like foreign lefty, right, but that's what I want 467 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 4: to hear, And that's why I think the majority of 468 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 4: the base. 469 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 2: Actually, well, I think Gems need to do that, and 470 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: so they need to do that, and a majority of 471 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 2: voters do not care. Their life is not changed at 472 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: all by what happens to the East wing of the 473 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: White House. Democrats need to be talking about affordability and 474 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 2: immigration and crime and the issues that matter to the 475 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: most amount of people. 476 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 4: Yes, like, I think, of course that's the case. But 477 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: I don't. Look, you know, what the hell do I know? 478 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 4: I've lost more elections than I've won. But I. 479 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: No, I think you're right. But I think it's and but. 480 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 4: I don't think that that's the way people vote. I 481 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 4: don't think that. I don't think that people vote according 482 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 4: to specific policy prescriptions. I think people they don't. 483 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: They vote based on how they feel and how they 484 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: feel most of them, and they don't. 485 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: I don't think that Trump the East wing is the 486 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 2: issue that matters most of them. 487 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 4: Here's at the risk, You're probably never going to invite 488 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 4: me back, because I'm of the disagreement. 489 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: We will invite you back every day on Sunday. 490 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 4: Thank you. 491 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: Love the conversation. 492 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 4: You know how insecure I am, so I appreciate that. 493 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 4: But I in order for someone, an elected official, particularly 494 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 4: a president, to address the really deep, painful things that 495 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 4: Americans are enduring today, particularly around cost of living, that 496 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 4: person is going to have to have the guts to 497 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 4: do stuff that hasn't happened before. That person is going 498 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 4: to have to be willing to dig deep and look 499 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 4: at these bureaucrats and look at this precedent and say, 500 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 4: screw you, we are not doing it that way anymore. 501 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 4: And that is the signal I believe that the American 502 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 4: electorate are going to be looking for, is does this 503 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 4: person have the guts to be different? 504 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I get what you're saying. They want a fighter, 505 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: and there's a way to signal that. 506 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: I think really did it brilliantly, Like Mam Donnie signaled 507 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: I'm a fighter. I'm not going to do things the 508 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: way they've all been always been done. But to my point, 509 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: he also focused on the issues that matter to most Americans, 510 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: affordability and safety and all those things. 511 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah, And you know this is I think we're 512 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 4: slowly kind of dancing towards you say saying the same point, 513 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 4: which is just a little bit that I feel like 514 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 4: it kind of Mom Donnie's proposals. Let's talk about him 515 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 4: for a secon Right, there's three planks, fast and free buses, 516 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 4: free freeze the rent, universal childcare. Right, those three things, 517 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: for the vast majority of New Yorkers dealing with an 518 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 4: affordability crisis, won't actually dramatically improve their situation. Right, Like, 519 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 4: if you're like someone in the working class, lower middle 520 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 4: class and suddenly you're not you're getting on a free bus, 521 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 4: your affordability life hasn't dramatically changed. But what I do believe, 522 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 4: what Mam Donnie was saying is that like, dude, this 523 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 4: is simple and it's bold, and that's the way I'm 524 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 4: going to govern like consistently. Yeah, And it's not like 525 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 4: some thirty pinch thing that you got to look through 526 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 4: where the nuance is going to be the way I 527 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 4: screw you yea, and the way like us looking for 528 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 4: ways to consistently communicate that about our personality as a party, 529 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 4: which is we don't talk about this enough how the 530 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: culture of the Democratic Party is broken. It is broken 531 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 4: because it is filled with technocrats who are scared and 532 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 4: who are actually consistent, particularly when they work in administrations, 533 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 4: and democratic administrations aren't thinking about their next job. They're thinking, 534 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 4: how can I go to Baine, How can I go 535 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: to McKinsey, How can I go to Solivan and Cromwell. 536 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 4: I how can I just make this the palate cleanser, 537 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 4: the progressive palate cleanser, So I have my West Wing moment, 538 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: but still preserve social credibility to the rest of my 539 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 4: professional career. That group of people, that culture is not 540 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 4: what the American people think will deliver on these bold, 541 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 4: unprecedented changes that are part fuck you. Yeah, And that's 542 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 4: kind of where I'm coming from here. When there is 543 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 4: an element of coming out and when you say the 544 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 4: ballroom should be named after Barack Obomba, there's an element 545 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 4: of that where you do also communicate implicitly that you 546 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 4: will deliver bold you'll do it all, change it. 547 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: I got it, I get it, but no, I get it. 548 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: And I actually think we are saying very similar things. 549 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: I want what you're saying, plus I want that, and 550 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 2: and I think I think of a talented you know, 551 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: a talented person can can. 552 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: Do it all. 553 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: All right, I know you got to go. Before I 554 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: let you go. We do an exit poll here. It's 555 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: three questions of varying degrees of seriousness. The first one 556 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: is what's your favorite movie about politics? 557 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 4: What's that movie with Michael Michael Douglas American President. Yeah, 558 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 4: that's just such a good one. 559 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a good one. And it's it's uh, 560 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: it's poignant. That's a Rob Reiner film. 561 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 4: That that that one's amazing one. 562 00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: Who is someone you like across the aisle? 563 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 4: Oh? I love Brian Fitzpatrick. I think he's a great guy. 564 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: He's a dear friend. 565 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: Good And finally, how do we save our democracy? 566 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: Max? 567 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 4: We win elections. That's it, periods. 568 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: It's the only way to do it. 569 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: You gotta win. Absolutely, Max Rose, thanks so much for 570 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: joining me. Really appreciated this como. 571 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 4: Thank you again, See you soon well. 572 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: And thanks to you for tuning in. 573 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: Have a great holiday everyone, and remember look for our 574 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: new Year's Off the Cup special. 575 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: And I'll see you in twenty twenty six. 576 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as 577 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network. 578 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: If you want more, check out the other. 579 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: Reason Choice podcasts Spolitics with Jamel Hill and Native Land Pod. 580 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: For Off the Cup, I am your host, Si Cup. 581 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Derek Clements, our executive producers 582 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: are me Si Cup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. 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