1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. The Pope and the 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: furor The Secret Vatican Files of World War Two is 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: a four part documentaries available to stream now on Daily 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: Wire Plus. Narrated by the Daily Wires Michael Knowles, the 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: series pulls back the curtain and one of the most 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: controversial figures of the twentieth century, Pope Pious the twelfth. 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: Through on precedent access to declassified wartime archives, the Vaticans 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: won Secret Files Republic in twenty twenty by Pope Francis, 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: revealed the private correspondence and long buried testimony that reshaped 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: the legacy of a pope long accused of silence during 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: Hitler's reign. Knowles is joined by a range of leading 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: historians and Vatican scholars, offering new insight into the man 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: who led the Catholic Church through one of history's darkest chapters. 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest to Michael Knowles. 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: He is the celebrated host of the Michael Knowles Show 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: at Daily Wire and the book Club at Prager You. 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: His first book, Speechless, became a number one national bestseller, 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty five, Ave Maria University awarded Michael, 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: an honorary doctor of Humane Letters. Michael, welcome and thank 20 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: you for joining me on. 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: Newtworld speaking Engrish. Thank you so much for having me. 22 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: It's an honor to be here. 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: Michael, you're a devout Catholic. We knew when she was 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: the Amvestador of the Vatican what an important story this was 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: and how the Pope was moving towards releasing previously secret documents. 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: But I'm curious what drew you to this story. 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think that the venerable Pope Pius the twelfth 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: is one of the most calumniated men in history, certainly 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: in recent history. I remember, even when I was growing up, 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: there was this spate of book boks that was coming 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: out attacking the man, going so far is to call 32 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: him not merely silent or even complicit, but Hitler's Pope. 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: As a kid, I just took this to be true, 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 2: and I who was actually somewhat scandalized by how distorted 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: the historical record could be. And why Also because I 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: think that the battle over the legacy for pot Pious 37 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: the twelfth is really in many ways a battle for 38 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: the political order and for the future of the Catholic Church. 39 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: What's So funny about the supposedly controversial pontificate of pot 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: Pious the twelfth is that it really wasn't controversial at 41 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: all until after he died, until really nineteen sixty three, 42 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: with the publication not of a work of history, not 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: of some correspondence, but of an eight hour long work 44 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: of fiction, a play by a playwright ing Rolf holkhouth 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: I always mispronounced his name, called The Deputy, which accused 46 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: him of being complicit with Hitler. This play promoted by 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: the KGB reportedly, and it's just nonsense. You know, the 48 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: historical record, even at the time of Pius's pontificate, reveals 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: him to be not only not complicit, but a personal 50 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: enemy of Hitler, a great hero to Christians and everyone 51 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: around the world, and specifically a great hero to Jews. 52 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: So it's just one of the worst smear jobs I've 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: ever seen, and I think it's about time that the 54 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: historical record is corrected. 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating on a sign of modern technology 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: that you could turn this into a docu series revenues 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: of say a book. What led you to decide to 58 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: go the route of the docu series. 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: Well, there were some other really great historians and teams 60 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: had been working on this sort of thing. We were 61 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: approached with some of this material. I said, this is 62 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: really really good. We took to you know, writing a 63 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: narrative about it, which could have been a book. But 64 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: no one reads anymore, mister speaker, as you're probably aware, 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: So we live in the age of new media. This 66 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: is the way to reach people. We conducted, you know, 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: a little extra interviewing, packaged it, released it on daily 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: wire places. Because the other kind of funny aspect I 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: guess about Signs of the Times is a docuseries about 70 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: the Vatican or about the Pope would not always be 71 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: the most scintillating content for popular media. But right now 72 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: we're in this period where we have reached the end 73 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: of the Francis Pontificate. There was a conclave, the Vatican 74 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: was very much in the news. We have a new pope, 75 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: we have the first American pope, and there's a battle 76 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: even over the future of the church going on right now. 77 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: And I think in many ways the fight over Pious's 78 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: legacy is an intra Catholic battle over whether the future 79 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: of the church will be some radical break with her tradition, 80 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: or whether it will be a continuity and a reacquaintance 81 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: with her tradition. So I think that's why Pius has 82 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: become this figure of controversy in polemics. And now's the time, 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: so we wanted to make Haseball sunshines. 84 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: Were you surprised when Pope Francis officially opened the archives? 85 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: Not really, because there was this caricature Pope Francis in 86 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: the media that he was this radical liberal. And look, 87 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that there weren't many confusing and confounding 88 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: aspects of the Francis Pontificate, but he would also say 89 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: many things that would be considered downright reactionary by the 90 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: modern culture. Even further, you know the Vatican's secret archive. 91 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: The word secret comes from the older use of the 92 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: word secret. It's not that the Vatican was really hiding anything. 93 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: In many ways, they were allowing Pious to suffer a 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 2: kind of white martyrdom. Pius knew that at the time 95 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: when he was opposing Hitler and was acting in some 96 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: ways as a spy for the Allies, and when he 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: was protecting personally protecting thousands of Jews and broadly throughout Europe, 98 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: protecting some eight hundred and sixty thousand Jews by even 99 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: Israeli estimates. The word secret, you know, also relates to 100 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: the word secretary. You know, it means private, it means 101 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: these personal documents. And Francis did call for, you know, 102 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: open church and diminishment of clericalism and a greater voice 103 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: for the laities. So I'm not terribly surprised by that. 104 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: Though the documents that have been released, even in just 105 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: the last five years, it's not that they upend the 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: historical narrative for people who've been paying attention. It's just 107 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: that I think this is the final blow to this 108 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: smear job, this calumny that was advanced by enemies of 109 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: the Church, notably the Communists. It's ridiculous, and I don't 110 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: think any serious person today could maintain the lie that 111 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: Bias was a supporter of Hitler. 112 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Before it became Pope Pious twelve, Eugenio Pacelli was the 113 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: Vatican's representative in Berlin, so he was there he saw 114 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: the rise of Hitler. From what you understand, how did 115 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: that shape his later decisions as Pope. 116 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: Well, Eogenio Pacelli certainly had Hitler's number very early on. 117 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: As you point out, he was the papal nuncio in Germany. 118 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: He then rose to become the top diplomat for the Vatican. 119 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: And I think you have a personal connection to some 120 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 2: diplomats around the Vatican, Is that right, mister speaker. You're 121 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: pretty well acquainted with this. So even at that time, 122 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: you know, in the nineteen thirties, Hitler did not like 123 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: Pacelli and opposed Pacelli's rise to become pious the twelfth. 124 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: They were furious about it. Hitler wrote a letter to 125 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: Francisco Franco in which he said that Pius was his 126 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: personal enemy. He considered him a personal enemy. And even 127 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: going back to when Pacelli is the Secretary of State, 128 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: you have multiple encyclicals being written against the rise of 129 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: fascism and communism and Nazism. You have non abiamo bisogno, 130 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: which is an encyclical written in Italian, not in Latin. 131 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: This is written for a very direct, immediate connection to 132 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: the people that was opposing the rise of fascism. In 133 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven, still under the pontificate of Piaus the eleventh, 134 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: but with a great deal of input from Pacelli, who 135 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: is at that time Secretary of State, helping to draft 136 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: these encyclicals. 137 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: They wrote the. 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: Encyclical against Communism and the Encyclical against Nazism, which is 139 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: mit Brenando Sorga, which is pushed around Germany somewhat surreptitiously 140 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: because the Nazis didn't like that encyclical getting around. And 141 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: then finally nineteen thirty nine, Pacelle becomes pious the twelfth. 142 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: Both he and Hitler know that they are enemies, and 143 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: it seems the only people who aren't confounded by this 144 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: fact are liberals. Long after the fact mel. 145 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: Has has struck me Nazism was a religion, and Nazism 146 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: saw the Church as a mortal enemy, because you couldn't 147 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: have both loyalties and the church. It seems to me 148 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church actually had a pretty darn good experience, 149 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: better than most of the Protestant churches in the same period, 150 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: in understanding that Nazism was a direct threat to the 151 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: core beliefs of Catholicism and to the integrity of the 152 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: structure of the church. You know much more about this 153 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: than I do. How would you view all that. 154 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: The Catholic Church had a very clear view about this. 155 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: Now that we can read documents like the Diaries of Gerbels. 156 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: Now that we can read table talk, you know, the 157 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: transcriptions of offhand speeches given by Hitler, we know that 158 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: the Nazi party viewed the Church with great ire and 159 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: hatred sought to destroy it. This builds on earlier themes 160 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: that had been coming up. I even think of Nietzsche. 161 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: Nietzsche who was a great influence on Hitler. Nietzsche viewed 162 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: Christianity as being wicked because it brought the slave morality, 163 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: in Nietzsche's view, to Europe, you know, and created a 164 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: whole civilization of unta mentioned these under men, and Hitler 165 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: himself would muse that it would have been much better 166 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: had Islam taken over Europe. That was a religion much 167 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: more befitting the German spirit. And Nazism also took part 168 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: in all sorts of folk religion. They tried to create 169 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: their own version of Christianity, called positive Christianity, and of 170 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: course positive Christianity was just Christianity ripped of Christ, denied 171 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: the divinity of Christ, and making an idol out of 172 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: the state. You saw a little bit of that in 173 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: Italian fascism, the state as the highest possible good. But 174 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: the Italians, I don't know they're a little lazier or 175 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: something than the Germans. The Germans took it to quite 176 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: radical extreme. 177 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: They also had the Vatican and this extraordinarly deep Catholicism. Conceivably, 178 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: if the Vatican had been located in Berlin, you'd had 179 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: more confusion there too. But I'm curious because Pacelli went, 180 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: he's Cecter of State in thirty three, he does sign 181 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: the right concord dot with Nazi Germany. I mean, what's 182 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: that all about. 183 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: Pacelli is a diplomat, and the Vatican, though it had 184 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: been almost all of its territory going back to the 185 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: nineteenth century and then finally with Mussolini. The Vatican always 186 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: has to deal with the political realities of the world, 187 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: so there's nothing new about that. In the twentieth century, 188 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: there's nothing uniqu about the Nazi regime. They sought a 189 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: kind of agreement with the Communists in the Soviet Union. 190 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: And this goes all the way back to the Roman Empire. 191 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: There's always a tension between the Church and the secular authorities, 192 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: certainly through the Middle Ages of the Holy Roman emperors, 193 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: the local kings, and at various times the Church has 194 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: tried to claim both secular and spiritual authority. At other 195 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: times they've been forced or even somewhat voluntarily seated secular authority, 196 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: but there's always that tension there, and so Pacelli is 197 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: really a man standing alone. You mentioned his position in Rome, 198 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 2: and I think that's really illustrative because as the war 199 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: goes on, Pacelli, as Pie's the Twelfth, remains the sole figure. 200 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: Really in Rome. 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 2: You have the King of Italy flees, you have Mussolini 202 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: taken out, and Pacelli refuses to flee because if he 203 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: were to leave the Vatican, it would deal a brutal 204 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: blow to the Church and he wouldn't do it. So 205 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: he has the fascists all surrounding him, who are spying 206 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: on all of his communications. That is in part I 207 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 2: think why he's accused of silence is because he has 208 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: to communicate in a way that is clandestine, otherwise all 209 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: of his messages will be received by the Axis. But 210 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: he won't leave. Hitler at one point plots to abduct him, 211 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: probably to kill him in Liechtenstein, and Pius understands that 212 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: this will likely happen. He prepares to renounce the papacy 213 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: as a letter in his desk. So if he's ever 214 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: taken out of the Vatican, he will renounce the papacy. 215 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: The only thing the Nazis will have on their hands 216 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: is a simple priest, and the cardinals will then elect 217 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: a new hope elsewhere. So this is another argument made 218 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: for his supposed complicity, is that he wants to be 219 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: a diplomat. You have to recall the man has at 220 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: this point essentially no temporal power. He has to protect 221 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: the Church all around the world, especially around Europe, and 222 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: he has to bear this cross that all of the 223 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: popes have had to deal with across millennia, which is 224 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: he has to deal with the secular authority in the 225 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 2: best way possible. But of course the Nazis didn't really 226 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: care at all about the Reichs Concord. Immediately after its 227 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: signed they began violating him. 228 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: By nineteen thirty seven, Corni Bachelli helps write a secret 229 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: and cyclical there was smuggled into Germany read in every 230 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: Catholic parish on Marsh twelfth, written on usually in German 231 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: rather than Latin, because normally cyclicals come out in Latin. 232 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: There's an amazing operation that somebody thought up, and that 233 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: took a heck of a lot of work to get 234 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: it to work right, and they infect distributed by hand 235 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: because they didn't trust the postal service because they'll be 236 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: intercepted by the Nazis. What was that all about? 237 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: He is, obviously, in the use of the vernacular language, 238 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: is communicating that this is urgent. This is to be 239 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: read immediately by the people. This is not necessarily a 240 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: document for all time, as some cyclicals are. This is 241 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: really responding to urgent needs. The Nazis immediately understood what 242 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: it was. 243 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: This was a. 244 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: Declaration of hostility and spiritual war on the Nazi regime. 245 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: Pious the twelfth, or Pacelli at the time, because he 246 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: was the Secretary of State, knew this. Even choosing the 247 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: name Pious shows the continuity with his predecessor, Pious the eleventh. 248 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: Pious the eleventh, who also had the number of the 249 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: Nazis very well. They understood that this was his spiritual war. 250 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: In fact, when Pious the twelfth becomes pope, we now 251 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: know that he attempted a long disc since exorcism of Hitler. 252 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: Exorcisms are really supposed to be done in person, and 253 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: so clearly it didn't work all that well. 254 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: It would have been better for the world had it work. 255 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: Yes, it certainly would have. Pious was clear that Hitler 256 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: was under demonic influence, if not outright possessed. I even try, 257 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: I try to be fair minded on this and think, 258 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: what would be the argument on the other side. You know, 259 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: what more could Pious the twelfth have done, and the 260 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: argument as well, rather than merely helped to smuggle a 261 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: German and cyclical in against the Nazis, we did make addresses, 262 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: Christmas addresses and things that were broadly condemnatory of the Nazis, 263 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: defending the people of God, specifically defending the Jews. Actually, 264 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: what more could he have done? In The answer is nothing, 265 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: Because while we might want a Monday morning quarterback and say, well, 266 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: he should have just gone out there and said Hitler 267 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: is the damn devil you know, and called him out 268 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: by name constantly, let's not forget that the bishops tried 269 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: to do that in the Netherlands. And when the bishops 270 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: tried to do that in the Netherlands, it led only 271 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: to greater persecution. It led to the Nazis clamping down. 272 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: It led to the deportations and deaths of me any 273 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: more people, especially many more Jews, And we now know 274 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: this from what Pius the twelfth was saying to his 275 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: associates close around him. When you get to the deportation 276 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: of the Jews in Rome, Pius was helping to protect them, 277 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: literally hiding Jews in monasteries in Castel Gandolpho, the Papal Palace, 278 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: the retreat, helping Jews to escape to go to Brazil, 279 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: which caused a tensions with the Brazilian government, passing fake papers, 280 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. He understood that if a handful 281 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: of bishops in the Netherlands could make the suffering all 282 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 2: that much more worse, could lead to the deaths of 283 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: hundreds or thousands, then if the Pope himself undertook a 284 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: similar strategy, it could lead to the increased suffering and 285 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions. And so he 286 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: chose wisely, prudently, and in great humility to suffer this 287 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: white martyrdom of being accused of silence, rather than make 288 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: the problem worse to I don't know, run some good 289 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: pr for himself. 290 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: One of those you brought up that I never heard 291 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: of was that Pious the eleventh. Well, he was so pope, 292 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: and in April of thirty eight, Mussolini writes him, urging 293 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: him to excommunicate Hitler. Now why would Mussolini want an 294 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: ex communicate Hitler. 295 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: The Italians have a bit stronger Catholicism, at least a 296 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: more immediate attachment to the Vatican. There was another odd 297 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: connection between Mussolini and po Pius the eleventh, namely that 298 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: the father of Mussolini's mistress was the doctor for po 299 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: Pious the eleventh, which has led to all sorts of 300 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories that when Pius the eleventh died, he was 301 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: actually killed. I don't take that very seriously, because Pius 302 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: the eleventh was an elderly man who was in poor 303 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: health and his death didn't help anything. But of course 304 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: there were tensions between Hitler and Mussolini, and certainly between 305 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: the two of them and Francisco Franco. Hitler certainly didn't 306 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: trust Franco either, And even when it gets to the 307 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: question of the deportation of Jews, the situation in Italy 308 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: was really not comparable to what was going on in Germany, 309 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: and it was really only when Hitler forced Mussolini's hand 310 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: that you saw real persecution tick up. So even there, 311 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 2: and especially there, you see that Hitler was a singular figure. 312 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: He was advancing a particularly dangerous and wicked ideology, and 313 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: Pius the twelfth saw that from the days as a diplomat, all. 314 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 3: The way up to the Seed of Peter, the Church. 315 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: Had a very active effort to help Jews avoid the 316 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: Guestapo and avoided Germans, and most of the Italians were 317 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: not particularly helpful to the Germans in trying to round 318 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: up Jews. It was a very different environment than you 319 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: had in Nazi Germany. 320 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: To me, the sole piece of evidence that would suffice 321 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: to vindicate Pius the twelfth is what happened immediately after 322 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: the war among the Jews of Rome, because the chief 323 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: rabbi of Rome Israel, converted to Catholicism. And not only 324 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: did he convert to Catholicism, he took the name as 325 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: his baptized Christian name, Eogenio Eogenio Mario. He took Pius 326 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: the Twelfth's name because he so admired the Poke for 327 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: what he did for the whole world and especially for 328 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: the Jews during the war, because his heroism was so apparent, 329 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: that he took this name. He converted incidentally, he said, 330 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: because of a mystical experience with Christ, which many books 331 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: could be written on that in itself, but just on 332 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: the purely political matter. It shows you, in addition to 333 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: the laudatory statements from Gold of my year, like Albert Einstein, 334 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 2: this man was a great hero. The fact that the 335 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: calumny comes long afterward, the war ends in forty five, 336 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: Pius the twelfth dies in fifty eight. The fact that 337 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 2: the stupid play, this propaganda from a long standing enemy 338 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: of the Church comes only in sixty three, and then 339 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: the big pious battles really spout off again in the 340 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties. That is what to me makes me think 341 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: this is in in any ways an intra Catholic battle, 342 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: because highs the twelfth is the symbol of the old 343 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: school pope. He wears the papal tiara, he extends his 344 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: arm in a paternal and aristocratic way to the people. 345 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: And then after Pious the twelfth, you have John the 346 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: twenty third, a great man in a different way, but 347 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: he inaugurates the Second Vatican Council. His successor, Paul six, 348 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 2: closes the Second Vatican Council. And then you have the 349 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: reforms that follow the Council. And all of this friction 350 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: between the conservatives and the traditionalists in the church, and 351 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: the people who want rupture and the people who want 352 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: radical change, and so in many ways, I think that 353 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: Pius the twelfth is just catching stray fire. He happens 354 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: to be in the wrong historical place at the wrong 355 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: time to be used as an object to fight a 356 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: basically disconnected ecclesiastical and political battle. Whatever one wants to 357 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: say about the liturgy, wars and the battles after the 358 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: Second Vatican Council, it really doesn't have much to do 359 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: with Pius the twelfth, and the man deserves his dignity. 360 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: It seems to me that there's a desperate passion on 361 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: the left to do whatever it can to undermine the Church. 362 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: The left, intuitively, much like Hitler, understands that the Church 363 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: is the mortal enemy of relativism. A world in which 364 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: the Church is strong is a world in which the 365 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: left has a very limited role, in a very limited 366 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: amount of authority. Piast became in that senso seemed to 367 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 1: me a battering ram by the left to try to 368 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: discredit the entire Church. 369 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: Yes, because there was a line during the Second World 370 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: War that the crooked cross of the Nazis would fall, 371 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: that would eventually perish, and the Cross of Christ would remain. 372 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: And now we're living in a strange moment when the 373 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: decline of Christianity seems to have leveled off, maybe even reversed, 374 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 2: and there is a massive surge in Catholicism of all things. 375 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 2: Even in America, which we think of as a Protestant country, 376 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 2: we're seeing a surge in particular in adult conversions. And 377 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: some people are noticing that in the West there is 378 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: one institution, and one institution alone that has survived from antiquity, 379 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: and that's the Catholic Church. All of the others have 380 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: fallen away, all the tyrants have fallen away, all of 381 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: the attempts to make a God out of man and 382 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: uber mensh, that's all gone. The Church remains, and some 383 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: people are kind of puzzled by it. I'm reminded of 384 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 2: the line by Hilaire Bellock. He has to take it 385 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: as a matter of faith that the Catholic Church is 386 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: divinely instituted. But for those who doubt it, one proof 387 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: is that no other organization conducted with such knavish imbecility 388 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 2: would have lasted a fortnight. I think people are beginning 389 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: to notice that. 390 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: There's a sense that at a time when Western civilization's 391 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: under assault, both from a secular relativism and from radical Islam, 392 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: that the one institution big enough and deep enough to 393 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: sustain Western civilization is in fact the Catholic Church. 394 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: The position you see at highus in this era, in 395 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 2: the era leading up to the war, really, I think 396 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: shows you the position of a Christian in a world 397 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: that has fallen, where principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness 398 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: and high places seem to have a lot of sway 399 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: is that you can have one error all the way 400 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: on the left of communism, a terrible error seducing many. 401 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 2: You can have another error ostensibly on the right, though 402 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: it does share a lot of aspects with the left too, 403 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: of Nazism. You can have an error of hypernationalism, which 404 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: is fascism, an error of anti nationalism, you know, international communism, 405 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: All of these errors around you, and then you have 406 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: the Church standing alone above all of these ideologies which 407 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: are so reductive, which are so contrary to the human spirit, 408 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 2: and you have the Church standing alone. And in the 409 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: case of the Second World War, you have essentially one 410 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: man standing alone, surrounded by enemies who fearlessly stands them 411 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: all down because he believes in the God that will 412 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: sustain and protect him. 413 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But isn't that pious a 414 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: twelve who authorizes the excavation under Saint Peter's because there 415 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: was a belief, which turned out to be true, that 416 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: they would find the burial site of Saint Peter. But 417 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: the pope's view was that we can't be sure that'll happen, 418 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: but we have to have a commitment to the truth. 419 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: And therefore the archaeologists can go forward and we'll see 420 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: what they find, and the Church will have to adjust 421 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: to the truth. And I thought at the time it 422 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: was actually, in a way a very courageous commitment to 423 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: letting the facts fall where they might. 424 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: Of course, the only position that a Christian can have 425 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: is not to fear the truth. Not There are some 426 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: flavors of religion that are afraid of scientific discoveries. Some 427 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 2: people are overly credulous, and they'll believe anything that a 428 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: guy on a lapco tells them, even if it quickly 429 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: turns out not to be true. But in the broad sense, no, 430 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: we're not afraid of the truth. We're not afraid of 431 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: archaeological findings, historical findings, or scientific development. I mean, let's 432 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 2: not forget that many of the great scientific advancements have 433 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 2: been brought about not only by members of the church, 434 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: but even by the clergy theorists behind the Big Bang 435 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: Father George Lametra Mendel, Mendelian genetics and so on and 436 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: so going back to Copernicus anyway, So that's never been 437 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: a fear, and it really it goes back to Saint 438 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: Paul who says, look, Christ has to be resurrected from 439 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: the dead. This can't be wishy washy, This can't be abstract, 440 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: this can't be purely figurative. If Christ is resurrected from 441 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: the dead, then we are sustained and redeemed by the 442 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: God who lives. If not, we're the biggest dopes on earth. 443 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 2: And it's just as simple as that. You really can 444 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: test faith. 445 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: And I would say to anybody who's listening to us, 446 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: if you had the chance to go to Rome and 447 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: you can have what's called a scavi tour, which is 448 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: under Saint Peter's and you're right there and you actually 449 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: realize you are looking at a burial area and Ultimately 450 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: you are looking at the burial site of Saint Peter, 451 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: and here is this great, magnificent church literally right where 452 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: Saint Peter was buried, and it sort of gives you 453 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: a sense of the continuity of the church for two 454 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: thousand years. 455 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 2: Yes, I would also recommend if you want to take 456 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: this Scaby tour book. It early. A lot of people 457 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 2: want to go see it, but it's an amazing fact, 458 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: a part of the incarnational aspect of the faith, you know. 459 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a faith that believes that God became 460 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: man and was incarnate during a particular empire in a 461 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: particular time, and like roiled fish and actually like did 462 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: things with real people. I think that that is an 463 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: especially Catholic sense of things. That's part of why Catholics 464 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: believe that Christ has apostles and they have successors, and 465 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: he gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. 466 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: And it is why bringing it all the way back 467 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 2: to pious, it's why it's so important what he did, 468 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: what he said, where he was, how he behaved, because 469 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 2: we believe in the irreducible humanity of the men who 470 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: run Christ's Church. Staying in Rome, staying on this place 471 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: above the burial site of Saint Peter of really standing 472 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 2: firm against the purely fleshy powers that we're trying to 473 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: dominate the world. 474 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: Michael, I want to thank you for joining me. Your 475 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: new four part docuseries, The Pope and the Furer The 476 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: Secret Vatican Files of World War Two is available now 477 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: on Daily Wire. Pruss and our listeners can access it 478 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: by going to Daily Wire dot com and click on 479 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: the shows and Movies tab at the top of the page. 480 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, sir, it's always a pleasure to be 481 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 2: on with you. 482 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 483 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests. Michael Knowles. You can learn 484 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: more about his new docuseries, The Pope and the Furer 485 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: The Secret Vatican Files of World War Two on our 486 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: show page at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by 487 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 1: Ginglishtree sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Guarnsey Sloan. Our 488 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 489 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 490 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: Ginglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll 491 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five 492 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 1: stars and give us a review so all this can 493 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of news 494 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: World can sign up for my three free weekly columns 495 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: at gingwishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt ginglish. 496 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: This is newtwork.