1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff production of iHeart Radio. Hey brain Stuff, 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Lauren vog Obam here. Maybe it will be a jealous 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: astronaut who decides to eliminate a rival in an orbital 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: love triangle. Or maybe being cooped up in a spacecraft 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: on an interplanetary flight will cause one crew member to 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: finally lose it at a colleague's annoying throat clearing. Or 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: maybe it will be a killing made to look like 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: an accident for some kind of nefarious space plot. But 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: sooner or later it seems likely to happen. Given humans 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: propensity for committing homicidal violence against one another all over 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: the world, somebody is going to commit a murder in 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: space or on another planet or moon, And when it happens, 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: authorities will have to figure out how to catch the 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: perpetrator and restore justice. But it's not going to be easy. 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: Investigating a murder in space would be vastly more complicated 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: and difficult than probing a crime on Earth, and law 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: enforcement agencies and words may have to deal with tricky 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: jurisdictional issues that end up requiring negotiations among spacefaring companies, 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: and until the laws are rewritten, judges will have to 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: take statutes and legal standards that were developed to deal 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: with murder allegations on Earth and figure out how to 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: apply them to accusations of lethal violence in space. You 23 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: might be surprised to learn that nations already have legal 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: jurisdiction that stretches outside the confines of this planet. That's 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: covered an Article eight of the nineteen sixty seven Treaty 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: on Principles Governing the Activities of States and the Exploration 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and other 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: celestial bodies. It specifies that whenever one of the nations 29 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: that's a party to the Treaty launches an object the spacecraft, satellite, 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: or space station into space, or builds one on a 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: celestial body, that nation retains jurisdiction and control over it. Thus, 32 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: according to legal experts, if a U S astronaut is 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: accused of killing another American while try raveling in a 34 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: NASA spacecraft or on a commercial space vehicle launched from 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: the United States, the FBI and federal prosecutors would be 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: within their authority to arrest the alleged killer and bring 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: them back to Earth for trial in federal court. Things 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: might get a little more complicated if the murder occurs 39 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: on the International Space Station and the alleged killer and 40 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: victim are citizens of different countries. But yes, there are 41 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: experts in this. We spoke via email with Franz G. 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Von der Dunk, the male professor of space law at 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: the University of Nebraska Lincoln's College of Law. They said 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Article twenty two of the intergovernmental agreement concluded between the 45 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: parties deviates from the aforementioned international treaty clauses and by 46 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 1: contract concedes jurisdiction to the state of nationality of the offender. 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: But there's a caveat quote, if the life or safety 48 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: of persons with other nationalities and or the safety of 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: the space station is at stake, consultation should take place 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: with these other countries concerned on which country should actually 51 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: initiate prosecution, which may result in the country of nationality 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: of the victim doing that. But this only covers the 53 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: International Space Station or I s S. Things could get 54 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: even more complicated jurisdictionally if there's a killing on a 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: future private sector orbital hotel, the sort of place where 56 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: this is probably more likely to occur. We also spoke 57 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: via email with Michelle Hanlon associate director of the Air 58 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: and Space Law Program at the University of Mississippi School 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: of Law. She said, if you have four hundred civilians 60 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: in space, you know crime inevitably is going to happen. 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: We send the most disciplined and fit people, the best 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: of humanity to the i s s. With a hotel, 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to impose the same 64 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: standards you need to make money. You're going to get 65 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot greater variety of people, and you know there 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: is going to be crime, possibly from stealing a watch 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: all the way to murder. Who actually qualifies as the 68 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: hotel's launching state with jurisdaytion under the nineteen sixty seven 69 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: treaty could be murky too. It could be Nation A, 70 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: which is home to the company that operates the hotel, 71 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: or it could be Nation B, where the installations components 72 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: were manufactured, or Nation C, where the launch pad for 73 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: the rocket that transported the parts into space was located, 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: or Nation D, home to the company that rented the 75 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: launch pad. Hamlin said, arguably any of these states could 76 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: have jurisdiction as a result. Crimes in space, particularly incidents 77 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: involving nationals from different countries most likely would lead to 78 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: diplomatic negotiations to see who gets to take charge and 79 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: what if an astronaut on a spacewalk decides to, say, 80 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 1: cut another astronaut's tether, who would have jurisdiction then, since 81 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: the act would have occurred outside of an object controlled 82 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: by a nation. We also spoke via email with Henry R. Hertzfeld, 83 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: a research professor and director of the Space Policy Institute 84 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: at George Washington University's Elliott School of International Affairs. He said, 85 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: although there is no sovereignty outside spacecraft, there are analogies 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: to the law on ships and international waters, and also 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: to issues that might occur in Antarctica. Of both places 88 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: with no national sovereignty, any person in space has a 89 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: national citizenship is the responsibility of the launching state or 90 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: the person state of citizenship for their activities in space, 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: and would be tried for a violation of the law 92 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: in the appropriate state. But let's assume that the US 93 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: takes jurisdiction over a space murder. Investigating the crime and 94 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: building a case is going to be tricky considering that 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: the crime scene and potential witnesses are outside the Earth. 96 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: Hamlin said, you might have to add a whole new 97 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: profession space cop. There's going to be a tremendous cost 98 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: to send someone into space just to investigate a murder, 99 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and gathering evidence in space or on another planet or 100 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: moon might be especially difficult. DNA, which is increasingly a 101 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: key means of identifying perpetrators, would age differently on Mars 102 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: than on Earth because of the increased exposure to solar 103 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: radiation due to the red planets that are atmosphere. Additionally, 104 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: lower gravity would lead to such things as different splatter 105 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: patterns from stab wounds. On the plus side, the ubiquitous 106 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: Martian dust clinging to the exteriors of space suits and 107 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: other surfaces might provide a valuable new sort of evidence 108 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: handling figures that investigators and prosecutors will find a way 109 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: to deal with it. She said. Our law developed four 110 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: fingerprints in DNA. When you prosecute a criminal case, you 111 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: do what you can with what you're given. Space murderer 112 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: may also require the courts to grapple with Fourth Amendment issues. 113 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: Since astronauts are continually being monitored in myriad ways, including 114 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: on video. Hanlon said there's a value to having cameras 115 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: in every room of a spacecraft, but do you have 116 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: an expectation of privacy? She expects that many of these 117 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: questions will be resolved by wise judges and lawyers, but 118 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: should also like to see spacefaring communities come together and 119 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: work out a new international agreement on how to collaborate 120 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: on handling future crimes in space. She said, what we 121 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: don't want is an international space regime that has very 122 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: different concepts from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Hopefully we can explore 123 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 1: space together as a species and have common understandings. Today's 124 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: episode was written by Patrick J. Kaiger and produced by 125 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: Tyler Clang. Brain Stuff is production of I Heart Radio's 126 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more and this and lots of 127 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: other unearthly topics, visit our home planet how stuff Works 128 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: dot com and for more podcasts from my heart Radio, 129 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 130 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.