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Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session to twenty of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into

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Speaker 1: the episode after a word from our sponsors. Earlier. This

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Speaker 1: week marked the ending of the Tokyo Olympics, and there

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Speaker 1: was no shortage of stories about black women athletes, both

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Speaker 1: leading up to and during the games. To help us

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Speaker 1: dig a little deeper into some of the ways that

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Speaker 1: gender and race intersected during the Olympics and through sports history. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Dr Lesia Carter. Dr Carter identifies as

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Speaker 1: a feminist sports psychology practitioner, and her work addresses historical

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Speaker 1: and contemporary representations of black women's strength, culturally sensitive health,

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Speaker 1: and sports psychology approach for people of color, and gendered

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Speaker 1: racism in sport. Dr Carter is an Associate Professor of

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Speaker 1: Exercise Psychology at the Intersection of Racial and Gender Equity

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Speaker 1: at Simple University, and in two thousand and nineteen, she

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Speaker 1: published Feminist Applied Sports Psychology from Theory to Practice and

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Speaker 1: edited text addressing intersectional feminist, womanist and Black feminist practice

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Speaker 1: in sports psychology. Dr Carter and I chatted about the

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Speaker 1: ways that gendered racism shows up in sports, how the

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Speaker 1: Strong Black Women trope impacts athletes, how athletes are using

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Speaker 1: platforms like social media to tell more of their story,

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Speaker 1: and how athletes like Simone Biles in Naomi, Osaka are

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Speaker 1: ushering in a change about how athletes take care of themselves.

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Speaker 1: If there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please be sure to share it with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'm just so excited to have this opportunity to talk

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Speaker 1: with you because I feel like in like an academics

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Speaker 1: and a psychologist life. There are a few times when

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Speaker 1: like the work that you do kind of comes to

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Speaker 1: life right in such a big, big way and like

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Speaker 1: on such a global scale. So I know that you

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Speaker 1: have been incredibly busy in the past couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: and would love for you to just start by like sharing,

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Speaker 1: you know, your thoughts about all of the things that

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Speaker 1: have unfolded as it relates to black women, specifically in

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Speaker 1: the Olympics. Gosh, yeah, I mean, this is one of

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Speaker 1: those moments right where you're like ten years of your

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Speaker 1: research and you're like, I've been telling y'all, try to

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Speaker 1: tell y'all, try to told y'all, a nobody there listening.

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Speaker 1: Now you're listening. Now you're listening. Yes, Yes, that's the feeling.

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Speaker 1: That's honestly the feeling where you're like, it's definitely a

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Speaker 1: full SoCal moment, not just for myself, but for other

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Speaker 1: researchers and practitioners whose work is deeply at this intersection

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Speaker 1: of the ways in which these kind of racist and

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Speaker 1: sexist stereotypes control play out in performance based domains and

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Speaker 1: seeing the way it's kind of lived, it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of been demonstrated. It's like, this is what we've been

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Speaker 1: seeing all along, and this is how it impacts wellness.

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Speaker 1: This is how it impacts black women's wallness. It's right here,

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Speaker 1: right in front of us for us to see. The

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Speaker 1: way black women athletes have to navigate both racist and

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Speaker 1: sexist oppressive systems and sport at the Olympic level, I

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Speaker 1: think has been very very interesting because that is really

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Speaker 1: the world stadium, the largest platform and sport, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, looking at the Simon Biles, Naomir Soka even

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Speaker 1: alt to feel it and the ways in which they've

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Speaker 1: had to navigate sports throughout their entire career, but particularly

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Speaker 1: this year, I think it is quite interesting because not

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Speaker 1: just with COVID, but it's also the sum of a

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Speaker 1: year and a half of racial reckoning that all black

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Speaker 1: women have absorbed, but particularly black women athletes, and so

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Speaker 1: the Olympics being a space in which they've kind of

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Speaker 1: had to navigate this past year and then perform being

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Speaker 1: a representative of the black community and also being a

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Speaker 1: representative of black women who we still haven't gotten justice

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Speaker 1: for Brianna Taylor, and so it's just quite interesting the

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Speaker 1: interesting time in sports. Mm hmmm. So I want to

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Speaker 1: step back for a little bit just to kind of

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Speaker 1: give our community understanding of like what sports psychologists generally

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Speaker 1: do and then specifically, you know, with the combination of

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Speaker 1: you being a sports psychologist but also your specific research focus,

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Speaker 1: would that work looks like for you? Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: So sports psychology is a very diverse field. It includes

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Speaker 1: researchers and practitioners, both individuals who might be trained clinically

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Speaker 1: within the mental health field and work with as to

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Speaker 1: along the spectrum of mental health and mental illness as

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Speaker 1: an intersect within sport and athleticism, as well as researchers

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Speaker 1: and non clinically trained individuals who work more around the

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Speaker 1: domain of support and performance. So what are the conditions

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Speaker 1: that help excite and stimulate elite athletic performance in exercises?

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Speaker 1: And then you have individuals who are also and this

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Speaker 1: is a little bit more kind of where I fit

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Speaker 1: in I should in kind of multiple places, but are

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Speaker 1: also interested around this exercise and physical health and well being.

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Speaker 1: What are the ways in which exercise kind of helps

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Speaker 1: support is overall health and well being, And how are

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Speaker 1: we as a support and exercise community kind of bringing

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Speaker 1: exercise and sport to everybody. You don't need for them

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Speaker 1: to engage in for it for all, and so you

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Speaker 1: have a kind of a multitude and that diversity of folks.

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Speaker 1: For in performance psychology, well, my research really looks at

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Speaker 1: gendered racism and for exercise and health. It means I'm

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Speaker 1: most interested in the ways in which sports and exercise

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Speaker 1: both helps and hinders physical activity and for engagement among

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Speaker 1: girls and women of color, particularly Black women. And when

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Speaker 1: we look historically and contemporarily, what are the things, what

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Speaker 1: are the conditions that have been most helpful for support engagement,

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Speaker 1: What are the things that over time might cause black

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Speaker 1: women and girls to leave support and physical activity, and

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Speaker 1: how do we kind of change those trends. And of

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Speaker 1: course it's a multitude of factors. It's no one particular factor.

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Speaker 1: It's a multitude of things. My research and my work

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Speaker 1: also looks at what are ways in which we can

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Speaker 1: train the next generation of sport and exercise psychology practitioners

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Speaker 1: to be much more quaturally responsive to the needs of

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Speaker 1: women of color, but particularly Black women and girls when

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Speaker 1: it comes to sport and performance and physical activity. And

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Speaker 1: then I'm also just generally interested in just motivation. You know,

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Speaker 1: what are the things that are involved in increasing motivation

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Speaker 1: and engagement in sports activity amongst diverse populations, again, particularly

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Speaker 1: women of color and black women. M hmmm. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, you were the perfect person to

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Speaker 1: talk to about this because of your research, right, so

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Speaker 1: you looking at gender and sexism as it relates to sports,

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Speaker 1: and I think we saw a lot of examples of that,

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Speaker 1: you know, with just the Olympics this year. So we

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Speaker 1: had Shackery Richardson's suspension, and then there was the whole

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Speaker 1: band on like the Afro swimming cabs and Brianna McNeil

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Speaker 1: missing her drug tests after recovering from an abortion, and

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Speaker 1: so it seems like the Olympics committee sets these supposedly

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Speaker 1: neutral kinds of like rules, but then we do see

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Speaker 1: it feels like at least black women kind of being

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Speaker 1: unduly penalized by some of this. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: like how those rules that are supposed to be neutral

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Speaker 1: really do kind of harm black women specifically? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean the first thing here that comes

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Speaker 1: up for me is that these rules are neutral for

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Speaker 1: white men, um, but they're not neutral for black women

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Speaker 1: and for women of color, and that speaks to the

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Speaker 1: lack of diversity in governing bodies that those who are

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Speaker 1: the decision makers and those who are the gatekeepers when

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Speaker 1: it comes to these governing bodies and sports, in large parts,

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Speaker 1: those that sit on the boards are men and white people.

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Speaker 1: There's very little representation of women of color and then

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Speaker 1: particularly black women. So when they're creating these policies and

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Speaker 1: these regulations, it does seem neutral for people whom it

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Speaker 1: just wouldn't affect and which is an issue. But then

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Speaker 1: when we think about the issue with the swim cap, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's quite neutral for white men because they

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Speaker 1: don't have to think about not all hairstyle, but it's

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Speaker 1: actually quite political for um, black women who have natural

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Speaker 1: hair who swim and needs something that you know, sitting

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Speaker 1: and also can cut through the water for them when

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Speaker 1: they're swimming that high rates of speed in the water. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think even based on your earlier comment about

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Speaker 1: studying some of the reasons why women leave sports right

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Speaker 1: and thinking about like how many like myself personally, I

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Speaker 1: do not know how to swim. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: like all the way related to hair. I also like

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Speaker 1: just grew up in the country where there weren't like

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Speaker 1: lots of access to like where would you swim? But

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Speaker 1: I have heard that as a huge reason why, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of black women have not swim, because you know,

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Speaker 1: if you just get your hair done, like you're not

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Speaker 1: trying to get in the pool, right, And so these

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Speaker 1: kinds of considerations around, like caps that would protect hair

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Speaker 1: and those kinds of things are something that other people

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Speaker 1: would not necessarily consider. Yeah, no, absolutely, Like the economics

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Speaker 1: of swimming from a black woman's perspective is a very

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Speaker 1: real thing that people really do have to attach to.

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Speaker 1: I'm a fish and water and I don't swim because,

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Speaker 1: like you you know, I have to allow my blowouts

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Speaker 1: to last, you know, and I prefer you know, sometimes

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Speaker 1: I like to wear my hair natural. Sometimes I like

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Speaker 1: it to be blown out. But that's my own personal preference,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want what are to be invariable to

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Speaker 1: something that I've decided for my hair to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: today or tomorrow. But the other thing here is let's

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Speaker 1: talk about kind of environmental racism for a second and

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Speaker 1: the ways in which that impact sport participation. I did

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Speaker 1: a study that looked at the strong black woman archetypes

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Speaker 1: and its relationship to physical activity amongst women, and I

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Speaker 1: interviewed women in a rural area of Michigan, and one

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Speaker 1: thing that they said was on top of being able

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Speaker 1: to having to juggle a lot of different responsibilities in

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Speaker 1: that plane of role and then being able to engage

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Speaker 1: in physical activity, they said, we don't have any sidewalks,

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Speaker 1: So even if they wanted to start a walking group

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Speaker 1: or just to walk, there actually isn't anywhere for them

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Speaker 1: to walk. So they would have to walk in the

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Speaker 1: street if they wanted to use walking as their fearm

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Speaker 1: of physical activity. And so that was a very real

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Speaker 1: issue that they themselves cannot fix. And oftentimes when we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about sedentary behavior, we often put the responsibility on

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Speaker 1: the individual. In this particular society, we say, they're the

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Speaker 1: ones that not aren't are engaging in physical activity because

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Speaker 1: they don't want to be active, but we failed to

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Speaker 1: look at the build environment around them, parturelarly in rural

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Speaker 1: and urban areas that have been historically ignored and marginalized.

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Speaker 1: So this area is predominantly black and there's just no sidewalks,

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Speaker 1: so they say, hey, how am I going to walk?

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Speaker 1: The other thing was that there was a gym that

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Speaker 1: had subsidized membership. However, there was one bust that they

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Speaker 1: could take to get to that gym, and it only

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Speaker 1: ran in the morning and in the evening. So when

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Speaker 1: you think about their schedule and things like that, it

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Speaker 1: just wasn't possible to be able to go to this

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Speaker 1: gym and to maybe use the equipment and things like that.

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Speaker 1: All these things contribute to set interior behavior of physical activities.

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Speaker 1: But when we take a step back, it's racism. It's

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Speaker 1: just environmental racism, structural racism. When we know that there's

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Speaker 1: greater availability and much more highly resourced areas where sidewalks

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Speaker 1: and transportations are not an issue for people who are

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Speaker 1: not black and brown to engage in shysical activity. Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: And can you say more Dr Carter about like how

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Speaker 1: the strong black woman archetype kind of impacted this behavior.

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Speaker 1: What did you learn from that study? Oh? Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot um. You know what I learned from that particular study,

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Speaker 1: And what I did in that study was I interviewed

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Speaker 1: individuals in that rural area of Michigan, But then I

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Speaker 1: interviewed about forty women all throughout New York City, Bronx, Brooklyn, Moregnhatans,

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Speaker 1: all black women. And what I just that there's a

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Speaker 1: multitude of variables that are contemporarily are built into this

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Speaker 1: archetype of the strong black woman. Of course, we know

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Speaker 1: a woman that's resilient, that can make a way out

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Speaker 1: of no way. It's part of the strong Black woman.

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Speaker 1: But that these women were also holding onto a lot

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Speaker 1: of other things that were challenges for them to be

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Speaker 1: able to engage in sport and syscal activity. One primary

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Speaker 1: one was trauma. That many of the women experienced a

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Speaker 1: variety of different forms of trauma, whether it was intimate

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Speaker 1: partner violence, community based violence, loss of a loved one,

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Speaker 1: also migrating from one country to the US and still

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Speaker 1: working through that trauma and the processing that trauma was

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Speaker 1: a barrier for them to even think about engagement in

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Speaker 1: physical activity. Many of them said it was a world away,

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Speaker 1: like why would I be thinking about engaging in regular

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Speaker 1: physical activity or sport when I'm still working through the

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Speaker 1: loss of my son who was murdered through to community

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Speaker 1: based violence, or I'm still grieving you know, the loss

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Speaker 1: of this person or whatever it might be. And so

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Speaker 1: when we're thinking about what how the strong black woman,

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Speaker 1: or when we're thinking about working with black women and

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Speaker 1: what might be a potential barrier or challenge for them

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Speaker 1: to engage in regular physical activity. Understanding what black women

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Speaker 1: might be holding and the ways in which they might

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Speaker 1: be socialized into the strong black woman is extremely important.

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Speaker 1: Two other things that came out of that study, amongst many,

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Speaker 1: was that the strong black woman ideal was something that

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Speaker 1: was passed down generationally, not just from mother to daughter,

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Speaker 1: but from father to daughter, from mother to son, and

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Speaker 1: so it's very deeply ingrained into the psyche of the

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Speaker 1: black community, and a idea that the plea is glorified

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Speaker 1: amongst many different actors within the black community, making it

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Speaker 1: quite hard to disrupt. So not only is it something

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Speaker 1: that's reinforced by the larger white supremacist society, but it's

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Speaker 1: something that's also glorified internally within our own community, making

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Speaker 1: it hard to counteract. There is this theme around anxiety

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Speaker 1: and mental health related to being a strong Black woman,

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Speaker 1: and that I think that's also due to will Stream

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Speaker 1: taking on so many different responsibilities and that's delaid self

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Speaker 1: care and how that impacts if your general well being

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Speaker 1: in mental health. M More from my conversation with Dr

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Speaker 1: Carter after the break. So Dr Carter, I feel like

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Speaker 1: there are so many places I want to go based

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Speaker 1: on what you just shared. So something that you know

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Speaker 1: I have been thinking about, but you just reminding me of,

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Speaker 1: is this whole idea around trauma and how we also

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Speaker 1: saw that play out in the Olympics. Right. So we

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Speaker 1: found out later that Shakary Richardson's mother had passed, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like a part of how she

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Speaker 1: was coping with that grief was through marijuana. And then

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Speaker 1: we also later found out that Simone Biles had an

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Speaker 1: aunt that passed while she was in Tokyo and that

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Speaker 1: she was also carrying this experience of being a victim

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault. Right. And so you know, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you can talk a little bit about you know,

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Speaker 1: we know, just on a regular basis, like how we

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Speaker 1: just try to go to work from day to day

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Speaker 1: dealing with a traumatic experience. But then you're, like you said,

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Speaker 1: on this world stage, the world stadium, expected to perform

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Speaker 1: with these traumatic experience is kind of under your built.

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Speaker 1: So where do I start here? Because part of the

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Speaker 1: strong black woman this image is that it's just it's

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Speaker 1: a very controlling image that is used to tell black

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Speaker 1: women how they're supposed to behave right that if you're

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Speaker 1: not behaving like a strong black woman, then you are

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Speaker 1: not engaging in the appropriate form of Black womanhood. And

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Speaker 1: the reason why I'm starting my response that way is

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Speaker 1: because I think it shed some light into one of

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Speaker 1: the criticism that someone Biles received, as well as some

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Speaker 1: beside eyeing that Shakari Richardson received. Right, So it's the

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Speaker 1: strong black woman. The ways in which it used to

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Speaker 1: control Black femininity and Black womanhood is that you are

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Speaker 1: supposed to absorbed trauma, absorbed the hardships of life and

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Speaker 1: where in some form of kind of mass grace and

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Speaker 1: form of grace, and that is a badge of glory,

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Speaker 1: a badge of honor. Then the moment that you say

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Speaker 1: I don't want this bad then that means that you're

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Speaker 1: not being a woman, You're not being a graceful Black woman.

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Speaker 1: Then that's the problem. So when it comes to some

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Speaker 1: Moone Biles and Hicari Richardson, you see someone Bile saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm an athlete, I'm a performer. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I like about the Moone Biles is that she's very

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Speaker 1: clear that her profession is an athlete. And there's so

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Speaker 1: many other aspects to her that are outside of her

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Speaker 1: as an athlete in this privileged profession. And so in

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Speaker 1: understanding that, she says, look, my my role as an

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Speaker 1: athlete is not to assume this idea of being a

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Speaker 1: strong black woman and to persevere through the pain that

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Speaker 1: I'm holding right now, as well as this narrative that

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be the mammy of all of the

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Speaker 1: survivors and all the victims of USA Gymnastics. That is

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Speaker 1: not my role here, and I am actually feeling in

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Speaker 1: this moment the kind of sum of all of that

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Speaker 1: right now in the Olympics, and it's time for me

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Speaker 1: to take a step back. That is her being a

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Speaker 1: human being and just living in her humanity. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: what the strong black woman trope and ideal does is

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Speaker 1: it it indignifies Black women and it doesn't allow them

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Speaker 1: to live in their humanity. So when Simone Bile does this,

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Speaker 1: people who see her through that lens are confused. M

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Speaker 1: They I think a few things happen. I think they say, wait,

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Speaker 1: you're bionic, You're not only you're vulnerable, you feel things. Wait,

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Speaker 1: you experienced trauma. So that first thing happens, and I

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Speaker 1: think a second thing happens is a disbelief that wait,

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Speaker 1: not only do you experience a form of trauma or

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Speaker 1: not only are you experiencing the twisties or something like that,

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Speaker 1: but are you really can you really just not push

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Speaker 1: through and do this because you're a biomic and as

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Speaker 1: a superwoman, you're also a fixer. You're the one that

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Speaker 1: just figures it out, even in the face of so

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Speaker 1: much hardship and challenge. You as a black woman, are

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Speaker 1: designed to figure it out, and you're telling us you can't.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe you. And the shame that hasn't happened

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Speaker 1: with Hikari Richardson. You mean that the way that you

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Speaker 1: coped with this news in this situation was with marijuana.

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Speaker 1: You're a black woman. You're just supposed to be able

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Speaker 1: to do things without any additional support. You can just

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Speaker 1: figure it out. And so being held so rigidly in

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Speaker 1: that controlling image when women black women asked outside of it,

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Speaker 1: what happens when people can use that lens is that

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Speaker 1: they marginalize them. And we see a Richardson marginalized, and

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Speaker 1: we see some more Biles criticized and originalized. Mm hmmm, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And can you talk a little bit more about this

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Speaker 1: idea that you mentioned earlier. A moan Biles is like

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Speaker 1: we were all rooting for them, right. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about like some of that added pressure of feeling like

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Speaker 1: they have to represent not only the US, which is

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Speaker 1: not typically been kind to them, right, but also like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I gotta represent the black community on my back. Gosh.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the story of black athletes

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Speaker 1: since the since the creation of support and the integration

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Speaker 1: of sport in the US, the representations that they are

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Speaker 1: the representative of all black people. And I think for

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Speaker 1: black women athletes, it is not only I am just

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Speaker 1: choosing happening, not only my representing the black community and

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Speaker 1: black women, but I also have to I also have

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Speaker 1: to navigate this form of classies, racist and sexist respectability,

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Speaker 1: the idea of a graceful black woman within a system

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Speaker 1: that is reinforcing this, this subtle but aggressive form of

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Speaker 1: ownership of the athletes. Navigating all of this and remaining

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Speaker 1: a political sport is wonderful at maintaining a space of neutrality.

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Speaker 1: It's all a sport, like, there's no identity here, There's

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Speaker 1: no identity. Politics. Sport is where it's just you and

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Speaker 1: competition and nowhere else. And so black women have to

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Speaker 1: navigate the pressure, the burden of representing black community and

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Speaker 1: being tokenized as a black woman athlete, yet not being

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Speaker 1: allowed to speak on the very things are being tokenized for.

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Speaker 1: It's a hard space to be it a hard place

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Speaker 1: to be in. And like kudos for like Moan Bios,

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Speaker 1: the way in which she navigates it, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know how she does it. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: we've seen Allison Felix when she broke Chriss silence with

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Speaker 1: Nike around the maternity protections. I mean, I think she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had enough of trying to navigate this

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Speaker 1: very oppressive dance and the sport in this industry that

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Speaker 1: is not and never going to love me back. And

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Speaker 1: I think that it really became evident for her when

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant and realized that, hey, I'm not getting

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Speaker 1: any protections for me as a pregnant woman, knowing that

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Speaker 1: the stakes are much higher as a black woman that's pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and Nike, the most powerful work company, can't even find

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Speaker 1: ways to protect me. So I think in that realization

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Speaker 1: for Allison, it is probably where you see where she

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Speaker 1: said you know, and I'm not even going to do

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Speaker 1: this anymore. I'm done. Mm hmmm. Something that it feels

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Speaker 1: like has been really instrumental, at least in my antage point,

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Speaker 1: is athletes like Someone Biles and Naomia Soka really using

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Speaker 1: social media and other forms of like new medias that

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Speaker 1: kind of control the narrative around what their story is.

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Speaker 1: So have you seen that, Like, do you feel like

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Speaker 1: social media and other kind of spaces of new media

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Speaker 1: have really allowed them to humanize themselves more? Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. I mean, I think that social media, Twitter, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: you know, TikTok. I think these have been wonderful mechanisms

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Speaker 1: for athletes to be able to disrupt narratives that really

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Speaker 1: are not authentic to who the athlete is. And I

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Speaker 1: think the story around Nyoman Socca is probably the best

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Speaker 1: example when she says, hey, I'm not going to sit

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Speaker 1: with the media, and initially the narrative being scripted is

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Speaker 1: that she is being a defiant young biracial woman's right,

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Speaker 1: and she then uses social media to say, hey, that's

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Speaker 1: not the case. You know, the media is a trigger

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Speaker 1: for me and this is why. And I I respect

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Speaker 1: the rules and all that but this is why. So

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Speaker 1: she's using social media to reshape and disrupt a narrative

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Speaker 1: that was being created not only by sport media, but

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Speaker 1: unfortunately by the World Tennis organization that was also trying

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Speaker 1: to create a narrative that she was not being a

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Speaker 1: cooperative athlete within the organization. I think another thing that

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Speaker 1: social media does is that it helps unify athletes around

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Speaker 1: a number of different political and advocacy oriented topics. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one thing about sports against sports likes to be this

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Speaker 1: a political space. In this neutral space, so oppression can

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Speaker 1: really survive in silence. And I think that when it

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Speaker 1: comes to athletes and social media, they can connect with

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Speaker 1: each person's story. They can say, while you're going through

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Speaker 1: this too, I didn't know because I can't share my

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Speaker 1: contract with you, I can't share what this person said

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Speaker 1: to me. Right, But now they can use social media

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Speaker 1: and say, yeah, this happened to me, it happened to you,

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Speaker 1: and now let's begin to create a movement for change.

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Speaker 1: I think the perfect example is around the maternity protections.

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Speaker 1: We saw that with Alfa Felix and Alessia mccano. Ye

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Speaker 1: m hmmmm mmmm. You know, as you touched on like

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Speaker 1: the world Tennis organizations, you know, kind of the angle

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Speaker 1: they were trying to spend there with Naomi Asaka too.

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Speaker 1: But it also feels like the media, just in general,

431
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: at least more traditional news outlets, it also feels like

432
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: play a real role in shaping these narratives and really

433
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of playing into this idea of the strong black woman.

434
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: Absolutely agree, Yeah, I mean the media is really good

435
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: at crafting a number of different racist, sexists troops and

436
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: stereotypes of black women. I mean we saw them. I

437
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: think that was when Serena chow lyned a call, they

438
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: were very quick to typecast her, and she was actually

439
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: charactered as an angry black woman on the tennis court, right,

440
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: because she was acting outside of again, what is supposed

441
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: to be what, particularly in tennis, is supposed to be

442
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: typecast as a traditional form of femininity and so and

443
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: then for black women's she's just supposed to just take it,

444
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: right and so, because she said no, this is not

445
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: a good call, Okay, now we're going to marginalize her

446
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: and typecast her as an angry at attitude e black woman.

447
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: And so the media does an unfortunate yet good job

448
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: of quickly typecasting black woman, Black women as some form

449
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: of oppositional, angry, superhuman or even at times jezebelling black

450
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: women m m m yeah, stereotypes. Yeah, we're we're some

451
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: form of controlled image that they like to play us into,

452
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: which really indignified and does a job of reducing our

453
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: humanity if not removing it. Mm hmmm. More from my

454
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Carter after the break. So, Dr Carter,

455
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't fully formed my thoughts on this,

456
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: but there's something swirling around in my mind around like

457
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: resisting these superhuman attributes and like not playing into the

458
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: strong black woman's stereotype, but also balancing that with like

459
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: how incredible like some black women athletes are. Right, So

460
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: I think we have seen this both with someone Biles

461
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: and historically if we go back to Soriya Bonelli. So

462
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: they both I think have been penalized for like coming

463
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: up with these new moves that the Olympics and people

464
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: don't want them to do, and so they don't grade

465
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: them the same, and they're like, Okay, you're gonna get

466
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: in trouble if you do that. So can you help

467
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: me think through how do you balance? You know, because

468
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: there feels like something racist, they're also right racist and gendered,

469
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: and that these two women have been able to kind

470
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: of do things that other people haven't been able to

471
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: do but now are penalized for that. I think the

472
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: first thing is that just thinking about the strong black

473
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: woman in this idea of like positioning black women as

474
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: superhuman and then connecting it to sport, there's like this

475
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: line there where when we look at women like Simone

476
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: Biles where she's engaging in feet that the average person cannot,

477
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: so you're kind of like, what she is like strong,

478
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: she's doing things that like she's the only woman in

479
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: the world that can do it. Probably very few men

480
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: can do it as well. And so there's that. But

481
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: there's this piece in the books Forty Million Dollar Plays

482
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: where the author talks about when we think about just

483
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: racism and sports, there's a dissonance that exists within this

484
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: racist sports society that there is an admiration for the

485
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: feats that black athletes can do, and in this context,

486
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: black women athletes. So there's this admiration like, wow, look

487
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: at what Simone Biles can do, look at what Serena

488
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: Williams can do, right, But then there's a resentment we

489
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: admire you, and we are extracting labor and entertainment from

490
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: you because you are driving an engine that it's profitable. Right. However,

491
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: we hate that it's you mm hmm. We hate that

492
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: it's a black woman, and so we don't know what

493
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: to do with that. And so I think that is

494
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: where we speed the underscoring of Simone Biles when she's

495
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: doing these terrific feats and other athletes as well, where

496
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: they know, don't give her the score. I think for

497
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: the vault that she did that is named after her,

498
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: I think they scored it like a six six and

499
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: she's like, they underscored me. But that's on that, you know.

500
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: I think that's where they're at. It's this this dismance

501
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: of like, wow, this is done, an admiring it, but

502
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: a deep racist resentment that it's a black woman that's

503
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: done it. Mm hmmm. Yeah. It kind of goes back

504
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: to our earlier conversation around these rules, right, because what

505
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: they say is like, oh, we don't want other people

506
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: trying this because they could really hurt themselves. But would

507
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: the rule be the same if like a non black

508
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: athlete had done it. Absolutely not. And I mean the

509
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: other thing here is that we have to also look

510
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: at this through the frame of like also just general femininity, right,

511
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: like what does the woman look like who's doing it?

512
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: And I think an example is Castor Semenya, the South

513
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: African runner who unfortunately her biology has been policed. And

514
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: I think we see the same things happen when we

515
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: look at other black women is with the same underscoring,

516
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: the same police scene of black women's Olympic seats, and

517
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: just general performance occur they fit more Eurocentric feminine features,

518
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: which would allow, unfortunately, these governing bodies to kind of

519
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: situate them more to kind of white adjacent athletes and standards.

520
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: That's a speculation, but something that I wondered. Mm hmmm, Yeah,

521
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: And I do wonder too, at what point are we

522
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: going to get away from looking at people's like what

523
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: are they measuring? I don't even remember all the specifics,

524
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: but when they say it, okay, you have too many,

525
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, like it's too masculine or something, right, Like,

526
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: at what point is that going to be outlawed really

527
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: as a criteria for being able to participate. Yeah, I

528
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, we had a long way to go.

529
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 1: I think we really have a long way to go.

530
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: I think another issue here is too is that what

531
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: we think of the Moon bios and Serrina Williams and

532
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: Naomi of Soccer and Allison Felix, I think we also

533
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: have seen an athletes too are beginning to transcend a

534
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: system of ownership and sports and being able to attain

535
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: an element of like free athletes. And so that is

536
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: a quite radical status to have. And I think it's

537
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: also something that scares, you know, individuals who are in

538
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: these controlling governty bodies, particularly because they're black women. Mm

539
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: hmmmmm mmmm. It's also not lost on me that it

540
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: feels like a lot of these black women who have

541
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: done this and like who are kind of leading this movement,

542
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: are largely in individual sports, right Like, I feel like

543
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing that you probably would

544
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: not see. I mean, we don't have female football leagues,

545
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: but like you couldn't see in the NFL or the NBA,

546
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: And we saw this even with the w n b

547
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: A right like that they were really on the front

548
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: lines of like a lot of the social justice movements

549
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: we saw like in the past year. You mm hmm,

550
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: absolutely I agree. When the w NBA players were the

551
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: ones to really first speak out and engage in their

552
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: different actions around advocacy. They received harsh signs, harsh harsh

553
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: signs because it's still within the institution of the n

554
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: b A that they have to navigate collectively. And so

555
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: I do agree with you that it's a far different

556
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: from an individual athletes two say no or do the

557
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: things that they would prefer to do, versus to have

558
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: to really navigate a different type of systems. Mm hmmm.

559
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: So you've already kind of alluded to this, Dr Carter,

560
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: but I'd love to just hear you expound a little

561
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: more about what you feel like this moment in sports,

562
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: with all the things that we've seen in the saying

563
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: no and setting boundaries, what do you think this means

564
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: for like black women's mental health? Yeah, you know, I

565
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: think the first is that I think in general, I

566
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: think the world is waking up when it comes to

567
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: generally like racism and sexisholm in the world. But I

568
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: think this for Kickler moment is like a like y'all,

569
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: like y'all see this right, like you know, And so

570
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: I think that one just the aha moments that people

571
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: are having because just around the racist and sexist oppression

572
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: that exists, and how it's demonstrated in the criticism that

573
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: Naomi Soka and Simone Biles received, how people are waking

574
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: up to that's just so crucial. The other thing here

575
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: is that it speaks to the pressures that athletes experience

576
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: in general, and that athletes needs space to be able

577
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: to institute and constitute boundaries. This idea that where is

578
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: healthy and I'm not I'm not saying that it's detrimental

579
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: to health, but that it's a workplace environment, and that

580
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: we need to begin to situate professional sport as a

581
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: workplace environment and for elite athletes when they say, hey,

582
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: I need a day off, you know, I need a

583
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: six day, then it needs to be treated that way,

584
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: not as someone being enslaved to a system that is

585
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: just that like this. This is not an athlete being

586
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: enslaved to a system. This is an employee and they're

587
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: saying that they need a sick day. And so there

588
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: needs to be rules and policies that really begin to

589
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: create a healthy workplace environment for our elite athletes that

590
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: way they can care for themselves long term in a

591
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: variety of ways. The other thing is that we've got

592
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: to be able to protect our elite athletes from fans

593
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: and from media. This idea that they have to engage

594
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: with media, this idea that they have to perform even

595
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: at their potential detriment to their own physical and psychological safety,

596
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: is deeply inappropriate. We wouldn't make the other person do that,

597
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: and so why would we have that for elite athletes

598
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: to deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me and I'm sure

599
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: everyone else. And so this is a crucial time just

600
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: when it comes to the institution of professional elite sports,

601
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: but then when we bring it down to college sports

602
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: and high school sports. I think this is a great

603
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: and important time to be talking about psychological health and

604
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: well being with youth athletes and high school athletes that hey,

605
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: look at Simone Biles and Naomi of SOCCA and even

606
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: Michael felt like, we're the conversation about what mental health is,

607
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: what mental illnesses, talking to coaches about having a dynamic

608
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: way of coaching that supports youth development holistically, particularly for

609
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: young black girls. Now is the time to really lean

610
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: into this, because what should be a place where kids

611
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 1: are learning, you know, the adds and seeds of life,

612
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, sports in life and if we can bring

613
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: that to our young black girls. The way they go

614
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: into healthy Black girls using someone Biles and the Naomi

615
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: of soccer is that you know, hey, look she said no,

616
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: she said her health first, and you can say that too.

617
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm getting chills just even thinking about it. M hmmmm. So,

618
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: Dr Carter, you already mentioned forty million dollars sleeves as

619
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: a reference point for some of this conversation. Are there

620
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: other books or other resources that you would want to

621
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: offer to the community that they may enjoy kind of

622
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: based on what you've shared today. Yeah, you know, I

623
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: gotta shout out my book. It is a terrific edited

624
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: volume seminist supplied sports psychologies from theory to practice. In

625
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: that book, we really run down There is a section

626
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: where we're just black feminist politics and for everything we

627
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: just talked about in this podcast. Also we go into

628
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: Indigenous based and indigenous practices and sports, as well as

629
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: the experiences of trans athletes and trans women and sports.

630
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 1: So you're interested in the diversity of spot but to

631
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: a feminist woman is the black feminist lens. Please pick

632
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: up the book. It's a great book, perfect and where

633
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: can we find you? Dr Carter, what is your website

634
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share.

635
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: You know, I was gonna say you can find me outside,

636
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: but now we can at You can find me at

637
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: Dr Alijia on Instagram. You can also find me at

638
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: my nonprofit which is Coalition under for Equity and also

639
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: at www dot Coalition Equity dot org. Perfect We'll be

640
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: sure to include that in the show notes. Well, thank

641
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: you so much for spending some time for us today,

642
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: Dr Carter. I really appreciate it. No, it's my pleasure,

643
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: and thank you for the great conversation and some of

644
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: the last in between. I'm so glad Dr Carter was

645
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Speaker 1: able to share her expertise with us today. To learn

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00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: more about her and her work, visit the show notes

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00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session to twenty,

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00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls and

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00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode as well. If

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00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure

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00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black

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00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

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00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community

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00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

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00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet,

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00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: design just for black women. You can join us at

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00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: Community not Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you

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Speaker 1: all so much for joining me again this week. I

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Speaker 1: look forward to continue in this conversation with you all

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Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care.