1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Hey, fam, Hello's Sunshine. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by perfectionism, 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: this show is for you. For this Wellness Wednesday, we're 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: joined by Catherine Morgan Schaffler, a psychotherapist and expert on perfectionism. 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: She doesn't see perfectionism as a flaw though, rather as 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: a superpower. So today we're going to learn how to 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: harness that power of perfectionism and use it to our advantage. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: Don't miss this insightful conversation that could change the way 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: you view yourself and your ambitions. 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: Stop trying to be balanced, stop hemorrhaging your energy trying 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: to be someone who you're not, and follow your desire, 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: follow your pleasure, trust in those things. 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, August twenty eighth. I'm Danielle Robe. 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 3: And I'm Simon Boyce, and this is the bright Side 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 3: from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 3: to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day. 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: Today's Wellness Wednesday is presented by Coliguard. 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: Okay, perfectionism, perfectionism. How do you feel when I say. 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 3: The word when you say the word perfectionism, That's a 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: really good question. I think about women honestly, I think 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 3: about the way that that term has been weaponized against women. 21 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: M hm, because you don't really hear people saying, oh, 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: he's such a perfectionist. It's always women, and it's always 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 3: the women who are perceived to be difficult. Interesting. I 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 3: know a few perfectionist men, for sure, But does anybody 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 3: actually label them that republic setting No, I think you're 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: right about that. I'm excited to talk about the topic today. 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: So I'm trying to think about how I'm a perfectionist, 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 3: and the first thing that comes to my mind is packing. 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: I feel like I procrastinate packing because I need the 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 3: perfect outfit. And you know this because we've traveled together. 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: I only go in a carry on, my carry on 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 3: and my Dagne Dover carry all, and so if it's 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: not fitting in there, it's not coming. And so then 34 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 3: I go through this whole thing in my mind, like, well, 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: what if it's raining, and what if it's cold, and 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: how do I fit two to three pairs of shoes 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 3: and my blow dryer? 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: And I just get crazy. 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 3: That's a lot of pressure to put on yourself. I'm 40 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: a packing perfectionist. Okay, here's my perfectionist tendency. It actually 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 3: happened to me this morning. I have a DIY project 42 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: that I have to do at my house. I'm doing. 43 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: I'm doing closet doors in my kid's room, and I 44 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: don't know how to do this. I've never done it before. 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 3: I'm sitting outside of Lows and the procrastinator perfectionism is 46 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: keeping me inside the car like I'm in freeze mode. 47 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: You know there's Fike flight or freeze. I'm sitting in 48 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: the car and I'm just scrolling and I realize you're 49 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: sitting here because you're afraid to mess up this project. 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, the car is your comfort place. 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 3: The car is the comfort place because we live in 52 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: Los Angeles and we live in our cars. But I 53 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: had to literally do a pep talk with myself, like 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: you know what, you just got to go in there. 55 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: You got to go into Low's and you got to 56 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: act confident and go to the lumber department, like you 57 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: know how to make these closet doors. 58 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: Did the pep talk work. 59 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: I got the plywood, I got all the supplies. 60 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: Go Simone, Simone, he did it. 61 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: But procrastination, this is something that we're going to get 62 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 3: into in our conversation today. But procrastination is definitely a 63 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: vehicle for perfectionism or like. 64 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: A symptom of right. Yeah, well, we're not the only 65 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: ones who deal with perfectionism. We open this topic up 66 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: to our bright side besties and we asked you on 67 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: social media to share how perfectionism shows up in your life. 68 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: And I want to read some of the responses. So 69 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: one person said, my live in boyfriend is a perfectionist. 70 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: I am not, and we are always fighting. Help. That's hilarious, 71 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: not the fighting part, but I love that he's the perfectionist. 72 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: Someone else said perfectionism can cause anxiety and be overwhelming. 73 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: One other bestie said perfectionism mostly keeps them living in fear. Wow, 74 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: that's kind of like you, Simon. 75 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: It is. I just kidd If you're sitting in your 76 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 3: car fearful, I feel you, I see you. 77 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 78 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: Well, our guest today is here to help us break 79 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 3: out of that cycle of fear and offer a new 80 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 3: perspective on perfectionism. Catherine Morgan Schaeffler is a therapist, a writer, 81 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: and author of the book The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, 82 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: A Path to Peace and Power. So she's got a 83 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 3: hot take on perfectionism. Y'all, and she's encouraging all of 84 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 3: us to embrace and harness the power of our perfectionism. 85 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: And I'm sure you're wondering, Okay, that sounds great, but 86 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: what does that actually look like. Well, the key to 87 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: unlocking that is identifying the type of perfectionists that we 88 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: all are, and she has a quiz that's going to 89 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: help us with that. 90 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: So Simona and I both took the quiz. I don't 91 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: know how I feel about it, so we're going to 92 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: get some insights from Catherine. And we also posted this 93 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: on our Hello Sunshine social accounts and the response was fantastic, 94 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: So thank you to all of our besties who shared responses. 95 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: You guys are the best besties. And if you want 96 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: to reach out to us, hit us up on Hello 97 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Sunshine's Instagram or on our TikTok at the bright Side 98 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: pod or via email at Hello at the brightsidepodcast dot com. 99 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: We really love hearing from you, Simone, and I always 100 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: feel like this is our show, meaning all of us, 101 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: So let's hear from the expert herself. Katherine Morgan Schaffler. Katherine, 102 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: welcome to the bright Side. 103 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to 104 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: be here. 105 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: So perfectionism, I have to tell you, Simone and I 106 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: are so excited for this interview because dare I say 107 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: we both suffer. 108 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: In different forms? Yeah? 109 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah. I think a lot of people 110 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: do those. So as we sort of get into this conversation, 111 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: I think it's important that we're all on the same page. 112 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: How do you define perfectionism? 113 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: Yes, so I define perfectionism in a different way than 114 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: I think commercial wellness defines it, and interestingly, so does 115 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: the research work world. Right, So I define a perfectionist 116 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: as a person who sees an ideal. Right, it's a 117 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: unique human cognitive capacity. We can imagine a version of 118 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: reality which doesn't yet exist and that is new and 119 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: improved in some way. And a perfectionist sees an ideal 120 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: and also sees the reality plunked down in their laps, 121 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: and they feel an active compulsion to bridge the gap. 122 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: Right. 123 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: So the difference between a perfectionist and an idealist, for example, 124 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: as an idealist sees that gap too, but they're like, oh, 125 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't that be nice if we could have the ideal? 126 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: A perfectionist sees the gap and it's like, wouldn't that 127 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: be nice, and then they feel that they need or 128 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: want to do something about bridging the gap, which I 129 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: think is a really beautiful, natural, healthy impulse. 130 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: I think of sort of the cliche meme that goes 131 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: around Instagram, which is like I saw the problem and 132 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: thought somebody needed to solve it, so I became that somebody, 133 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: which I guess is not how I thought of perfectionism before. Yeah, 134 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: I mean, perfectionism. 135 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: First popped up in psychological literature as a really positive thing. 136 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: And what's really interesting is to watch the arc of 137 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: how we've kind of taken perfectionism and shrunken it down 138 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: to this behavioral thing that's bad. And that's not how 139 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: I see perfectionism at all. I think of perfectionism that 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: as a problem to be fixed, but a power to 141 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: be harnessed. 142 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: Like, I'm not here to. 143 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: Say perfectionism is one hundred percent great. 144 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: It's not. 145 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: There are real dangers around it, and I talk about 146 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: those dangers in the book. But for the most part, 147 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: I think, what if we looked at perfectionism as this 148 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: part of you that you never have to get rid of, 149 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: a b could actually enjoy and see makes you who 150 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: you are. 151 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: So before we talk about harnessing the power of it, 152 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: which I really love, and I do want to get 153 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: into the positive. I think we have to talk about 154 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: the negative, which is what happens when it goes into 155 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: an unhealthy place. How does it affect people and people 156 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: in those people's lives. 157 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: Perfectionism when it's you know, maladaptively expressed, which is the 158 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: research term for unhealthy perfectionism is maladaptive. Healthy perfectionism is 159 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: adaptive and just taking a quick step back, research for 160 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: decades had supported the notion that perfectionism can be both 161 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: flexible and rigid, healthy and unhealthy all that stuff. So 162 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: negative perfectionism is really tied to a person's sense of 163 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: self worth. And self worth is not the same as 164 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: self esteem. So self worth is about what you believe 165 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: you deserve as a human being, right, and self esteem 166 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: is about what you think about yourself right. So self 167 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: esteem is like I think I'm hot, good at math, 168 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: bad at cooking, really patient with kids. Self worth is 169 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: like I believe I deserve reciprocity, safety, love, joy without 170 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: having to earn it. And a perfectionist who's in a 171 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: healthy place is in touch with their self worth, and 172 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: a perfectionist who's engaged in maladaptive perfectionism. It can feel 173 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: like until I get this thing right, I don't deserve 174 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: to relax, or I don't deserve to be in a 175 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: relationship until I'm making this amount of money, or I'm xyz. 176 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: You're basically making your sense of being present and joyful 177 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: and like actually having fun with your life contingent upon 178 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 2: you achieving some external outcome, and that is something that 179 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: we can all fall prey to and gets really dangerous 180 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: really quick. 181 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: Okay, we have to get into why you're so qualified 182 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: to talk about this with patients as a therapist, also 183 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: as an on site counselor at Google, and you have 184 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: your own personal connection to perfectionism as well. I hear 185 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 3: that you didn't even understand how much of a perfectionist 186 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: you were until you started losing control. What happened. 187 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: It is such a cliche, right to not realize something 188 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: critical about your life until you get sick, But that 189 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: is what happened. I, when I was thirty three, got 190 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: diagnosed with cancer, and it was a really treatable cancer 191 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: and I never really felt like I might die. 192 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: I felt like it was. 193 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: All manageable, but it did completely turn my life upside down. 194 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: You know, I lost a pregnancy. I had just been 195 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: married one year. I didn't have time to freeze my 196 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,599 Speaker 2: eggs before I started chemotherapy, and just all these professional 197 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: opportunities and personal achievements that I had worked for it 198 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: for so many years just disappeared in the span of 199 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: two weeks. And anybody who has any kind of chronic 200 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: illness will know that the busyness of being sick just 201 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: takes up so much of your time and energy. And 202 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: I just did not realize how much I over indexed 203 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: on control until I lost so much of it, and 204 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: I was like shocked by that, And that is where 205 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: this book was born from, of like how can I 206 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: be a perfectionist? Which I realized I was in my 207 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: exploration of this topic and I don't never know where 208 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: my phone is and like obsessed with doctor Brene Brown, 209 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: and she'd like, how is this adding up? And I 210 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: just realized how much we've tried to squeeze perfectionism into 211 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: this little ring box. When perfectionism is so kaleidoscopic, it's 212 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: so much more. We think of it as this like 213 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: behavioral type a thing. When perfectionism can manifest emotionally, it 214 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: can manifest cognitively wanting to perfectly understand something. It can 215 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: show up in so many ways. 216 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 3: I've heard you say that your book, The Perfectionist Guide 217 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: to Losing Control is asking the reader to answer one question, 218 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: and that is, can you assume, for just one moment 219 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 3: that nothing is wrong with you? How did you arrive there? 220 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: Yes? 221 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: Well, I wrote the book for women because perfectionist, turns 222 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: out is a very gendered term. And you know, I 223 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: had a practice on Wall Street. I worked with a 224 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: lot of women who are sort of in big law 225 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: and finance, and they came into my office not being 226 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: able to shake the sense of I should be happy 227 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: with my life, like I have what I need, I'm safe, 228 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: I achieved some of my goals, but there's a problem. 229 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: I want more. I'm such a perfectionist, I just can't 230 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: be happy with enough. And the men that came into 231 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: my office never talked about perfectionism in that way, and 232 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: they never describe themselves, for example, as a recovering perfectionist, right. 233 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 2: They just think of themselves as hies, drivers and people 234 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: who have a strong and clear vision. And that's what 235 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: perfectionists tend to be. It's just that when we see 236 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: those qualities animated in women. There is a cultural reflex 237 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, You're doing too much, You're 238 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: being too ambitious, you need to balance yourself out. Basically, 239 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: women are conditioned to register a desire for more as 240 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 2: a deficiency in gratitude. 241 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: You know, say that again. 242 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: Women are conditioned to register a desire for more as 243 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: a deficiency in gratitude. And it's like, you can be 244 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: grateful and want more, you can be angry and. 245 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: Full of love. You don't have to choose. 246 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: I loved the conversation you had about this with Reese 247 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: Witherspook because she was talking about her desire to create 248 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine in that interview and that she got all 249 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: these kind of reactions that were essentially saying, but why 250 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: do you want to do that? And her answer was 251 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: because I want to? And as women, when the answer 252 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: to why we want to do something is because I 253 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: want to, that can be a really disquieting answer for 254 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: that reason, because we're conditioned to not allow our own 255 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: desire to be enough of a justification. Yeah, And it is, 256 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: like I'm here to say it is, if you want 257 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: to do it, there's probably really good reason for your wanting. 258 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: To do that. We have to take a quick break. 259 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: But when we come back, psychotherapist and author Katherine Morgan 260 00:14:50,440 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: Schaeffler is breaking down the five types of perfectionists. We're 261 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: back with Catherine Morgan Shaffler. We do have this idea 262 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: of perfectionists with like a color coded closet and perfect 263 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: notepads and just a type a organized person. And it's 264 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: interesting to hear that a perfectionist comes in many forms. 265 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: You could have an unruly apartment or a messy car 266 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: and still be a perfectionist. 267 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So as I see it, there are five types. 268 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: You could be one type of perfectionist when it comes 269 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: to dating, for example, and a whole other type of 270 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: perfectionist at work. So I'll go through the five types 271 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: really quickly. The first type we could start with is 272 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: the classic and this is I think most similar to 273 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,239 Speaker 2: the archetype we think of when we think of a perfectionist. 274 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: This person is like very you know, maybe prep be structured. 275 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: All types have pros and cons, because perfectionism has pros 276 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: and cons. The pros of the classic perfectionist are that 277 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: these are people who naturally infuse structure into everything that 278 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: they do. They do what they say they're going to 279 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: do when they say they're going to do it in 280 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: the way that they said that they. 281 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: Would do it. 282 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: But the cons are these are not people who necessarily 283 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: operate in the spirit of collaboration, let's say. And so 284 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: you can feel like I see this person every day, 285 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: but I don't know a lot about this person, because 286 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: the relationship is transactional in some ways, because it's just 287 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: about getting things done. And on the classic perfectionist side, 288 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: they can feel really taken for granted and taken advantage 289 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: of sometimes because it's like, sure, this person always likes 290 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: to plan the vacation or you know, do the deck 291 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: or whatever it is, but that doesn't mean it's not work, 292 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: and that we don't want to be appreciated for the 293 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: work we do. And so the next type is the 294 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: procrastinator perfectionist, another really relatable type. Right, So procrastinator perfectionists 295 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: in essence want things to be perfect before they start. 296 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: So the pros of this type are that these are 297 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: really thoughtful people. They can see something from a three 298 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty degree angle and they are so well prepared. 299 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: But the cons are that their preparative measures like spill 300 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: past the point of diminishing returns, and they're like over 301 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: prepared and never execute on the thing that they long 302 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: to do right. And then the counterpart to the procrastinated 303 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: perfectionist is a messy perfectionist. And this type of perfectionist 304 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: is in love with starting. I call them start happy. 305 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 2: They will just really get enveloped in the romanticism of 306 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: a fresh beginning. 307 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: Right. 308 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: So I'm going to start a podcast and this is 309 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 2: what it's going to be called, and I'm going to 310 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: be an Airbnb super host, and I'm also going to 311 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: you know, become a photographer and a dog walker and 312 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: do yoga certification training. And just like they start so 313 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: many things and then they hit the inevitable tedium where 314 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: stuff gets boring or complicated or some combination of both. 315 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: And you know, it's very hard to continue along the 316 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 2: process when the process, because it's alive and real in 317 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: the world, isn't unfolding in the perfect way that it 318 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: does in the beginning. And then we have the intense perfectionist. 319 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 2: And this type of perfectionist wants the end of the 320 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: process to be perfect. 321 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: Right. 322 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: So these are like your Steve Jobs kinds of people 323 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: who are totally focused on the outcome, and the pros 324 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: of this type are that they will get it done. 325 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 2: The cons are that sometimes the means don't justify the ends, 326 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: and intense perfectionists loose sight of that. 327 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: Right. 328 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: So, an example might be somebody who, yes, they get 329 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: their team to achieve the Q two goal, but in 330 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: Q three half their team quits because they're all miserable 331 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: because the work environment was so toxic. And so the 332 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: last type is the Parisian perfectionist. The best way to 333 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: describe the Parisian perfectionist is this type wants to be 334 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: perfectly liked and wants to perfectly like others. And I 335 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: named it Parisian perfectionists after the beauty aesthetic of French women, 336 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 2: who are so elegant and beautiful in my opinion, and 337 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: make it all look so effortless, but behind the scenes 338 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: are doing a whole lot of work to kind of 339 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: exude that. And Parisian perfectionists are almost kind of embarrassed 340 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: about how much they care about how much work they 341 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 2: put in. And the pros of this type is that 342 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: these are naturally warm people. They're naturally inclusive. The cons 343 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: are that and I think we all do this sometimes 344 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: in our desire to feel ideal connection, we take shortcuts 345 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: to connection, which look like people pleasing. And when you 346 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: get in a pattern of people pleasing, you know you 347 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: can't do that without, in tandem abandoning yourself. 348 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: Should we get into our quiz results? 349 00:19:58,359 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. Okay. 350 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 3: I took your quiz at perfectionist guide dot com slash quiz. 351 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: I'll kick us off. I have forty three percent messy perfectionist, 352 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 3: forty three percent procrastinator perfectionist, and fourteen percent Parisian perfectionist. 353 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: Mmm. 354 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: I like that profile. If you think it tracks with you, 355 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 3: I think so. Tell me a little bit again about 356 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: the messy perfectionist. 357 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: So in love with starting high energy, Yeah, you know, 358 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: always wants to be saying yes to everything, has troubled 359 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: down the line after the initial excited yes, being like, 360 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: oh my god, what did I get myself into? 361 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally feeling overwhelmed by just the drudgery of execution. 362 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 3: That that tracks for me? 363 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: How about you, Daniel, I'm fifty seven percent intense perfectionist, 364 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: twenty nine percent Parisian perfectionist, and fourteen percent procrastinator perfectionist. Mmm. Okay, Well, 365 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: does that track with you? I don't know. I think 366 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: I like the perfectionist in me, so I feel like 367 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: the intense perfectionist has a negative connotation, and I actually 368 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: really like it about myself, So I don't know. 369 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: No, it doesn't have a negative connotation. Again, all this 370 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: stuff has two sides to every coin, right, So the 371 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: intense perfectionist is like, you know, when you're managing that 372 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: energy well, and by well, I mean in a way 373 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: that is aligned with your values. Like people feel really 374 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 2: safe around intense perfectionists because they're like, oh, these are 375 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 2: people who can hold boundaries very well when they're managing it. 376 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: And we didn't talk about this before, but intense perfectionists 377 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: don't really care that much or as much as Parisian perfectionists, 378 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: at least about being liked. So they're effortlessly direct. And 379 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: I think the challenge of that isn't being who you are, 380 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 2: but is other people's reaction to that, especially if you're 381 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: a woman, because it's like, how dare you say exactly 382 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: what you need as a woman without cushioning it with 383 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: all these apologies or you know, soft language or whatever 384 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: it is. But I don't think any of these profiles 385 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: are bad or good, and I didn't present them to say, hey, 386 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: look out for this. You could be somewhat of an 387 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: intense perfectionist. Sometimes I presented them to say, hey, this 388 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: is who you are as much as a two minute 389 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: online quiz can tell me who you are. Identity is 390 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: at best. Provisional is one of my favorite quotes. But 391 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 2: it's really about saying, here's where you have some trouble, 392 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: Here's where you have some pain points, Here's where you 393 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: need to ask for help, not here's where you need 394 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: to churn this thing about. Like you know, simone your 395 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 2: messy perfectionism, for example, that's good to know. The goal 396 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: is now not to become someone who's not super excited 397 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: about starting projects and is not that The goal is 398 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: to become someone who, when you get to the middle 399 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 2: of the process, you say I need help here. 400 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 3: Asking for help is huge and not great at that. 401 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: Well, it's also. 402 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: About knowing where you can give help effortlessly, like the 403 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: stuff that takes you five minutes as a messy perfectionist, 404 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: like starting a dating profile, for example, super fun and 405 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: easy for a messy perfectionist, maybe not for ourselves, but 406 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: for other people, right for someone else that could take months. 407 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: That's like, well, I don't have the right pictures that 408 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: I don't have the this, and I don't have that. 409 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: And for you to just offer help to people who 410 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: are really struggling with stuff that is easy for you 411 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: is such a great way to connect. And also to 412 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 2: receive help for stuff that you know other people could 413 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: do in their sleep that's hard for you. And that's 414 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 2: really the whole point of understanding more about yourself isn't 415 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 2: to say let me change, It's to say, let me 416 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: know exactly where I can ask for help. And I 417 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: reframe asking for help as asking for help is a 418 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: refusal to give up. Right, I can't stand this thing 419 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: that's always said in mental health spaces, which is like 420 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: asking for help is not a weakness. It's like there 421 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: was a point in time when we needed to hear 422 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: that message, when we really pathologized asking for help and 423 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: glorified total independence. But we're over that time. You know, 424 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: we did a lot of work, it's a culture, we 425 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: did a good job. We're over that time. How we 426 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: need to stop saying that because saying to someone asking 427 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: for help isn't a weakness. It's like me walking into 428 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: a room and unprompted, you guys both go, Catherine, your 429 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: shirt is not ugly And I'm. 430 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: Sitting there like, who said it was ugly? You know, 431 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: It's like, let's not. 432 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: Start by talking about how something isn't terrible, and instead 433 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: let's talk about how if you're asking for help, that 434 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 2: means you are determined, empowered, you're feeling strong. So it's 435 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: like when we're feeling most strong, most powerful, that is 436 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 2: when we can feel most generous with the help we 437 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: give and the most open to help that we can 438 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: get right. 439 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: We need to take another short break, but we'll be 440 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 3: right back with more from psychotherapist and author Katherine Morgan Schaffler. 441 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 3: And we're back with Katherine Morgan Shaffler. 442 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: So you point out that typically the advice for perfectionists 443 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: is often a version of quote just stop, don't be 444 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: so controlling, learn to relax. Those words obviously don't work 445 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 1: on people. What are better tools? Yeah? 446 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: Well, I would say understanding that the research back sets 447 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: up perfectionism is what's called an enduring identity marker. So 448 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: if you identify as a perfectionist, you are likely to 449 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: identify that with that for your whole life. And I 450 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: think we talk so much about tools and tricks and hacks, 451 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: and it's like, one of the most beautiful simple tools 452 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: is stop hemorrhaging energy trying to be someone other than 453 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: who you are going to work. 454 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: Wait, that's so interesting. It's an identity marker. 455 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 2: It's an identity marker. Just like people who say I'm 456 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: a romantic or I'm an activist or I'm an artist. 457 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: That's part of who they are. You can't eradicate that, 458 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: and that's a good thing. 459 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: So I have a question for you. Then. I have 460 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: never identified as a perfectionist until my therapist said to me, 461 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 1: you might want to consider it because you're procrastinating. I 462 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: still don't even really want to take on the title. 463 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: What do you think that means? I think that's okay. 464 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 2: You're allowed to connect with and identify with any framework 465 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 2: that you want to interest. And I'm so glad you 466 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: asked that question, because I think it's really important that 467 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 2: you know you're the one who signs on the dotted 468 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: line of whether you are a perfectionist or not, whether 469 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: you're too uptight or not. There's a lot of fluidity 470 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 2: in all of this, so it's important to use your 471 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: own experience as the deepest validation of your reality. If 472 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: you don't like the idea that you're a perfectionist, that's fine, 473 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: you don't have to. It's just one way amid many, many, 474 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: many infinite ways to think about who you are, how 475 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: you're changing, what you want. 476 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: What's one thing that we can all do today to 477 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: better harness the power of our inner perfectionist? 478 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: Again, I would say to return to that invitation I 479 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 2: give to my reader, which is, assume there's nothing wrong 480 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: with you. I gets a very radical assumption to make, 481 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: because we're always like, now, how can I find the 482 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 2: thing or the little cluster of things that's getting in 483 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: my way? And how can I move it so that 484 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: it gets out of my way? And sometimes what's in 485 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: our way is the false belief that we need to 486 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: fix ourselves or feel a certain way, or do a 487 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: list of things before we can call ourselves healthy. More specifically, 488 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 2: I would say, abandon the idea of balance. Balance is 489 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 2: not real. We used to when we were little girls 490 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: be told this fairy tale that a prince is going 491 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: to come and rescue us one day on his white horse, 492 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: and everything's going to be happily ever after after that 493 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: and in womanhood we've just replaced the prince with the 494 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: word balance. It's like, one day, if you just get 495 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: the right pie chart of exercising and putting yourself out 496 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: there and doing work you're engaged in but also having 497 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 2: a hobby and also doing nothing but also doing your 498 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: five favorite things and making time for yourself all this stuff, 499 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: then you're going to achieve balance. And it's going to 500 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: feel like a seatbelt clicking into place and your life 501 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: is just going to go smoother after that. And it's like, 502 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: that's not real. I don't know one balanced woman. I 503 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: don't know one balanced woman. And the quicker that we 504 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: can understand that trying to find balance is like trying 505 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: to find a needle in a haystack that doesn't have 506 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: a needle in it. To begin with great, like, I'm 507 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: all for that. That's what I want women to do. 508 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: Stop trying to be balanced, Stop hemorrhaging your energy trying 509 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: to be someone who you're not, and follow your desire, 510 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: follow your pleasure, trust in those things. You know, it's 511 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: the echo of hysteria that like, what do you mean 512 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: trust what feels good? It's like it's such a simple 513 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: question that I ask in the book of of like 514 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: does your life feel good to you? Does this friendship 515 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: feel good? We make all these pros and cons lists 516 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 2: and intellectualize everything to death. It's like, does this feel 517 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: good in your body? It's a good barometer, And we 518 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: don't trust ourselves because for a long time, and clinical 519 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: psychology has a dark history of this, we pathologized women 520 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: who did anything other than what was expected of them. 521 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: And this idea that like, well, if I trust what 522 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: it feels good, I'll become a hedonist and I'll get 523 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: wasted every day and binge watch TV for a year 524 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 2: and quit my job and hurt everyone around me and 525 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: abandoned my commitments. It's like, no, none of that will happen. 526 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: What will happen is that you'll have time, some time 527 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: to restore and you'll feel better, and then you'll return 528 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: to whatever you most want to return to with a 529 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: lot of energy, premium quality energy, and it's going to 530 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: feel good. Right. 531 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: But using does this feel good? 532 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: As a barometer just feels so reckless to so many 533 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: women because we're out of the practice of asking that question. 534 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: Slash. 535 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: We were never in the practice of asking that question, 536 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: So you know, it's a new idea to imagine there's 537 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: nothing wrong with you. Just do what you like and 538 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: what makes you feel good. It feels selfish, it feels reckless, 539 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: it feels all these things. Just because it feels that way, 540 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: said every therapist ever, doesn't mean it is that way. 541 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for giving us permission to do that, Catherine, 542 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 3: and thanks for coming on the bright side. Thank you. 543 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 2: This was such a pleasure. 544 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. Katherine Morgan Schaffler is a psychotherapist and author 545 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: of the book The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. 546 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're back with another 547 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 3: edition of Mom Friend Life. Coach and founder of the 548 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 3: Mother Company, Abby Schiller joins us to talk back to 549 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 3: school and how to deal with an empty nest. You 550 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 3: don't want to miss it. 551 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: Thank you to our partners at Coligard, the one of 552 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: a kind way to screen for colon cancer in the 553 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: privacy and comfort of your own home. Talk to your 554 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: doctor or healthcare provider, or go to coliguard dot com 555 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: slash podcast to see if you are eligible to order online. 556 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: If you're forty five or older and at average risk, 557 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with Coligard. 558 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: You can also request a colar Guard prescription today at 559 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: coligard dot com. Slash podcast listen and follow the bright 560 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: Side on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 561 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. 562 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: I'm Simone Boye. You can find me at Simone Boice 563 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 3: on Instagram and TikTok. 564 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's r O 565 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: b A. 566 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 3: Y See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.