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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: destiny is Dan Wilson, singer, songwriter, producer, you know and

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Speaker 1: from Semi Sonic. You know, from the songs he's written

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Speaker 1: with a Del Josh Grogan and Dixie Chicks and so

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Speaker 1: many more. Dad, good to have you, Thank you, Bob.

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Speaker 1: It's good to be here. Okay. So what are you

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Speaker 1: up to these days in the COVID ever? Dare uh

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Speaker 1: making a lot of music and currently moving house, putting

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Speaker 1: books into boxes and getting ready to move. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you're moving from where to where? From Sherman Oaks to

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Speaker 1: loose Felis stand in l a. Okay, and what's that about? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's the usual thing. It's uh school kids,

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Speaker 1: proximity to school, um, parenthood. You know, it's nice to

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Speaker 1: be up in the hills far from everything, but you're

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Speaker 1: also very far from the kid's friends. That kind of thing. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So your kids go to public school or private school?

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Speaker 1: They private school and one is is graduated from high

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Speaker 1: school and lives with us. How many kids you have

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Speaker 1: just to graduate from high school? What's the plans there? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Our older daughter is um cognitively disabled and the plan

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Speaker 1: is for her to just hang with us for us

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Speaker 1: as long as we all shall live, and she takes

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Speaker 1: music classes and various things. She's musically quite talented, but

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Speaker 1: essentially nonverbal, which is an interesting combination. So what will

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Speaker 1: happen when you and your wife pass away? Lord have mercy? Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is the the very very slow, white knuckles question

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Speaker 1: of of a parent with a disabled child. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: laugh with our thirteen year old telling her, you know,

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Speaker 1: could come a time when the twenty year old lives

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Speaker 1: with her, but we don't want to press the issue

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Speaker 1: too too hard. Well, I know, I've another friend in

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Speaker 1: the identical situation, and he was commenting to me that

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Speaker 1: up to twenty one, they're all these services for these kids,

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Speaker 1: but once they reached twenty one, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: these governmental services fall away. Yeah, it's up in your experience.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and it also um in a way when

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Speaker 1: things are medically stable, which they've been for a while

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Speaker 1: for us. Uh, the you know, we've been able to

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Speaker 1: figure out ways to make make a life that's um

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Speaker 1: interesting and enriching for for the whole family, I guess

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Speaker 1: you'd say, but you know, just on our own. So

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Speaker 1: we haven't really needed specific services, but I do. I

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Speaker 1: see that the same thing. I know what you're talking about. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're moving. Are you a pack rot? Are you

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Speaker 1: guy who has no problem throwing things away? Um? I

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Speaker 1: am a pack rat and my um. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: apply uh a metric or whatever, a rule of thumb

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Speaker 1: to this, of which is, if it's a book that

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Speaker 1: I brought to l A from Minneapolis ten years ago

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Speaker 1: and I still haven't read it, then how it goes.

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Speaker 1: If it's a guitar pedal that I brought from Minneapolis

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Speaker 1: to l A ten years ago and I have never

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Speaker 1: plugged it into my guitar, it's going on reverb dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to like, I'm trying to use the you know,

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Speaker 1: when you look in your closet, if you warn that

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Speaker 1: shirt seriously, even to a wedding, no, I think you've

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Speaker 1: got to get rid of it. So that's my little thing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So how many books do you think you'll move like them?

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Speaker 1: And how many books? Is that? I'm a big reader,

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Speaker 1: so it's not a library full of books, but I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of books. I read a lot of books.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't really have more books than

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Speaker 1: anybody that I know. The reason I mentioned this is

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Speaker 1: I moved about a year ago and I was confronted

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Speaker 1: with the same problem. And I have a lot of music.

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Speaker 1: I kept all my vinyl. I never you know, and

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to get rid of my vinyl. And

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Speaker 1: that's thousands of records. Terms of CDs, I cleaned those

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Speaker 1: out a few times, but a few computers with the

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Speaker 1: money I've gotten, and uh, they were you know, these

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Speaker 1: promo CDs are worth nothing there. Now they're worth nothing again.

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Speaker 1: But for a long time there it was astounding. Um.

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Speaker 1: But the books, it was interesting in terms of the

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Speaker 1: physical books. I all, I have the stuff I bought,

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Speaker 1: and I also have the stuff that sent to me.

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Speaker 1: And there was so much stuff that I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know what to do. And then I have another friend

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Speaker 1: who says, well, you know, once I've read a book,

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Speaker 1: what should I do with it? You know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna read it again. I'm not a rereader, but I

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Speaker 1: certainly come from the background where you want to walk

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Speaker 1: into someone's house and see all the books. So I

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Speaker 1: started to throw things out, and then I said, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna keep all the music books because a lot of

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Speaker 1: those were only innted once, and I may have the

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Speaker 1: only copy extent, but I literally tossed everything else. And

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Speaker 1: I'd like to tell you I miss him, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: The other things. I've been reading on a kindle for

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Speaker 1: about ten years, and I'm really into it. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's some physical books that are sent to me and

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Speaker 1: I see this the future. And I have a friend,

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Speaker 1: my close friend from college. He was in the book business.

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Speaker 1: And I go to his house and every room is

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Speaker 1: full of books, and he goes, yeah, my house is

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Speaker 1: a monument to dead treat media. I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's enough for me. But I'm a pack rat too.

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Speaker 1: But how much are you saving stuff for legacy reasons? Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't you mean, what do you mean by legacy?

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Speaker 1: Tell me that? Well, you know, I was talking to

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Speaker 1: Pete Wentz, a fallout boy. You know, he literally has

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Speaker 1: kept everything because at some point he's gonna die and

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be his museum. Bill why Bill Wyman did

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Speaker 1: the same thing. He kept one of everything, although he

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Speaker 1: recently sold a lot. Are you keeping it? Thinking? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm Dan Wilson, I've had some six says

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Speaker 1: the other thing you know. The other big thing now,

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Speaker 1: which you may or may not be aware of, is

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Speaker 1: you can donate your archive to UH colleges frequently for

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Speaker 1: seven figures. WHOA well, um, Bob. I love all this talk.

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Speaker 1: I I I my my relationship to all the books

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Speaker 1: is actually pretty selfish. At the moment, I'm not thinking

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Speaker 1: about my legacy. I'm just thinking I might want to

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Speaker 1: I might read that book again. If it's poetry, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna keep it all. I have a lot of poetry books,

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Speaker 1: and I do kind of like I do like to

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Speaker 1: just randomly pick out a book from the shelf and

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Speaker 1: read it, or just be reminded of something and read

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Speaker 1: and read some poems. And but I probably I don't

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Speaker 1: think I will read most of the novels that I

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Speaker 1: that I've read again. I probably won't. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a funny question. If you lend a novel

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Speaker 1: to somebody, do you insist to come back. No, I'm

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Speaker 1: actually I don't mind when I lend a book to

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Speaker 1: somebody unless we make a pact. At that moment, I

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Speaker 1: really don't expect it's gonna come back. I'm fine, I'm cool, Okay.

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Speaker 1: And if you had to pick two books out of

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Speaker 1: your reading experience of fifty odd years. Wow, what would

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Speaker 1: you recommend or what are the most important to you?

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Speaker 1: I can't really recommend, Like probably the books like um,

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Speaker 1: Labyrinths by or Hey Louis Borges is probably the most

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Speaker 1: important book, just because it was when I read it,

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Speaker 1: I had an idea what books were, and then this

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Speaker 1: was one of those books that just completely changes your

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Speaker 1: whole idea of what a work of art could be.

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Speaker 1: I just love that book Labyrinths, and then from my childhood,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I keep. I was once at

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Speaker 1: this conversation with Matt Hale's a friend of mine who's

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Speaker 1: a great producer, and he, um, he said, what's the

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Speaker 1: most influential book in your life? And I said it's

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Speaker 1: probably Lord of the Rings and he said, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's Winnie the Pooh. And I was like, Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: a closed call. So I'd probably keep Borges and Winnie

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Speaker 1: the Pooh or a load of the Rings. I can't tell. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's jump back. So what are you working on career wise,

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Speaker 1: work wise, music wise these days? Yeah? Um, Well, the

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Speaker 1: big surprise of the other than everything going to crazy

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Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket. Uh is that? Um, Semisnic put

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Speaker 1: out My band, Semi Sonic put out an EP, and

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Speaker 1: the first single has been sort of floating in the

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Speaker 1: teens on the Triple A chart, which is not what

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Speaker 1: we expected. Is on the radio and people are hearing

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Speaker 1: it and sadly, Um, we had to cancel a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of shows. We had a very fun um maybe

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Speaker 1: uh a lazy man's touring year planned and Uh, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna go to UK and play a bunch of shows

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Speaker 1: there and we're gonna hit as much of the US

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Speaker 1: as possible. That's gonna go. Maybe maybe they'll have to

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Speaker 1: happen next year. But even the fact that we've been

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Speaker 1: doing these ridiculous and great, um, you know, live from

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Speaker 1: home performances, and the fact that we've been talking to

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Speaker 1: each other aloud and and I'm still writing new songs

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Speaker 1: for Semi Sonic, That's like that's been a big focus

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Speaker 1: and I'd still write songs with folks like let's stop

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Speaker 1: stop with Semi Sonic. Semi Sonic a spense essentially broke

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Speaker 1: up or faded away and you put out albums independently.

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Speaker 1: What made you decide to work with semi sonic again.

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Speaker 1: I had the guys and I have been in touch,

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Speaker 1: like you know, close friends all this time. There's never

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Speaker 1: been like a fight or a falling out or a problem.

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Speaker 1: John and Jacob and I are pals. Okay, just one second.

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Speaker 1: Was it an actual agreement to break up twenty years

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Speaker 1: ago or suddenly you just didn't get back together to

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Speaker 1: make new music. I at that time are older, her

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Speaker 1: Coco was kind of emerging into like she was getting

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Speaker 1: She had been very medical as a as a as

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Speaker 1: a you know, we are our family was very medicalized,

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Speaker 1: you know, in from nine to two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: and and yet I was also on tour a ton

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Speaker 1: and I found that conflict between having a little baby

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Speaker 1: on a ventilator, um, you know, an undersized PREMI toddler

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Speaker 1: on a ventilator at home while I was in Birmingham

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Speaker 1: or you know, Bristol doing shows. I found it painful,

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Speaker 1: and eventually it just seemed insupportable for me to be

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Speaker 1: gone so much so I and the guys and I

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Speaker 1: had been on the road for like eight years at

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Speaker 1: that point. And it's not like we're mad at each other,

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Speaker 1: but there weren't a lot of things, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't really put on our plates something that that

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Speaker 1: we hadn't already done a bunch of like there was

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Speaker 1: it didn't really seem like they were going to be

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Speaker 1: like brand new. I'm not, you know, just being bigger,

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Speaker 1: like doing the same thing and being bigger. That was

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Speaker 1: the only thing that was sort of like on the menu,

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Speaker 1: and that wasn't enough of a draw. And I kind

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Speaker 1: of felt I needed to be a dad more more

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Speaker 1: of a dad in this you know, difficult situation. So

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Speaker 1: we just kind of slowed down, and I know the

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Speaker 1: guys didn't exactly know what was happening. Jacob started writing

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Speaker 1: his book. He wrote this wonderful book called So You

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Speaker 1: Want to Be a Rock and Roll Star? During those

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Speaker 1: those next like four years or so, um, but then

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Speaker 1: as time passed, you know, John bass player from Semi

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Speaker 1: Sonic would say to me, like we'd get together on

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Speaker 1: Christmas time in Minneapolis, or we'd have a benefits show

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Speaker 1: that we would do, and he'd go, have you written

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Speaker 1: any new songs? Let's let's come on, let's just do this.

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Speaker 1: It could be great. And I had to confess I

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Speaker 1: hadn't written any good Semi Sonic sounding songs during those

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Speaker 1: I tried, but I didn't have any. It was either

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Speaker 1: a bad song that sounded like my band or a

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Speaker 1: really good song that didn't sound like my band. And

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Speaker 1: I hadn't been able to figure out how to do that,

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Speaker 1: to to make a to to make a great song

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Speaker 1: that sounded like semi sonic. Again, I needed to have

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Speaker 1: a stroke of luck to get to that point. Okay,

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Speaker 1: first point, you've continued making a living from music. The

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Speaker 1: other two members of the band, what have they been

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Speaker 1: doing for the past twenties years? Essentially, Well, John in

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Speaker 1: Minneapolis has become kind of uh. First of all, he

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Speaker 1: has he has a jazz band called the New Standards,

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Speaker 1: and they they do they play pop songs and then

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Speaker 1: they shred. It's a trio h vibes piano and upright bass,

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Speaker 1: and they have become kind of a uh icon of

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Speaker 1: Minneapolis St. Paul Music um. And every year they put

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Speaker 1: on a big Christmas show with with all the artists

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Speaker 1: that they know, all the all the performers that they know,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of become sort of it's like a

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Speaker 1: destination for families and and and fans every year. So

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Speaker 1: John kind of slowly turned into an impresario. He puts

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Speaker 1: on gigs. He you know, he's produced a few records,

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Speaker 1: not a lot, and then the new standards, you know,

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Speaker 1: go to Beijing and play shows or Alaska. They do

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Speaker 1: fun stuff like that. Jacob has been working on his

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Speaker 1: second book for quite some time. He has a punk

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Speaker 1: rock band in New York that plays loud and very fast,

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Speaker 1: so whenever he gets together with us, it's like our

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Speaker 1: tempos are that just the laziest thing, and he's got

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Speaker 1: absolutely no trouble, you know what I mean. It's just

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Speaker 1: like Semisnic is all this medium speed, you know, Lope

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Speaker 1: and Jacobs, you know, much more accustomed to hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty beats per minute these days. Okay, but Jacob have

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Speaker 1: a slide gig because being in a drummer and a

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Speaker 1: punk band doesn't tend to pay that. You're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to get Sakeavon to ask him how he pays the bills.

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Speaker 1: But uh, I think the book helps the first book, okay,

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Speaker 1: and it was a great book. I certainly read it.

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Speaker 1: So you had problems writing semi sonic songs? What changed? Uh?

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Speaker 1: It really was a specific event. I had a really fun,

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Speaker 1: inspiring meeting with one of my favorite singers, Liam Gallagher.

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Speaker 1: We got together um at my place one late morning

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Speaker 1: and sat out on my my deck in the backyard,

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Speaker 1: and he just basically was a rock star, uh. And

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Speaker 1: we laughed and I got to ask him some of

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Speaker 1: my Oasis fan questions and not all but not all,

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Speaker 1: and we played him a few songs that I'd written, uh,

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Speaker 1: and he said, well, I'm going back to you know,

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Speaker 1: England tomorrow. Send me anything you have have that you

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Speaker 1: think I could do when we could, when we could

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Speaker 1: discuss that. And I was like, yeah, sure, no problem.

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Speaker 1: So over the next week and a half, I had

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Speaker 1: a bunch of ideas and I wrote like five songs,

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Speaker 1: thinking these are pretty good Liam Gallagher songs. I like

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Speaker 1: these songs. These are cool. So I sent them to

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Speaker 1: him and his management and they got back to me

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Speaker 1: right away and said, oh my goodness, it's the album's done.

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Speaker 1: You know, my mistake or whatever. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: they hated them or if they literally were like, oh geez,

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Speaker 1: Dan wrote a bunch of songs. So but when I

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Speaker 1: listened to them again, they sounded they bore Liam Gallagher songs.

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Speaker 1: They were just me. They were my songs. And a

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Speaker 1: couple of them sounded like Semi Sonic songs, and even

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Speaker 1: though we didn't use them on the EP, they were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute. I don't know, maybe just meeting I

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Speaker 1: had met Liam before at festivals, at gigs, backstage and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but maybe seeing him again reminded me of that time

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Speaker 1: in a way that other things didn't. And I I

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Speaker 1: had told John and Jake, we're not going to update.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to upgrade our sound. We're not gonna

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Speaker 1: try to sound like you know, Post Malone does Semi Sonic.

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Speaker 1: I don't need that personally because I do pop music,

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Speaker 1: so I don't need to be updated. And I just

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Speaker 1: said to the guys, let's not let's just do what

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Speaker 1: we sound like and have it be fine. So we needed,

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Speaker 1: I needed to get back in that mood. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you're back in the mood. But needless say, in the

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Speaker 1: twenty years since Semi Sonic was on the boards, the

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Speaker 1: music business has changed completely. Okay. It used to be

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Speaker 1: the big threshold was getting a label deal, and if

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Speaker 1: you had one of the label deals, they would give

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Speaker 1: you a shot in the marketplace, assuming they believed your

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Speaker 1: music was okay. If not they'd either drop you or

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Speaker 1: get your some publicity. So what was it like saying Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna enter back into this sphere twenty years later. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think one, um, one thing that you

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Speaker 1: have to do now is piece together the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: like piece together, like as though you all the departments

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Speaker 1: that used to be a label and now separate people

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Speaker 1: working out of there, you know, home offices or or

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Speaker 1: offices or whatever, you know, as as subsidiaries of things.

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Speaker 1: We ended up getting distribution and some um uh services

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Speaker 1: from the Orchard. We did a bunch of things ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We have um, you know, publicists that have worked for

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Speaker 1: you know, worked for me, and they ended up also

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Speaker 1: working for the Semi Sonic record. We you know, it's like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have these relationships, but

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Speaker 1: we we have. You have to sort of almost like

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Speaker 1: it's all all a heart. You just find this and

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Speaker 1: that and this and that and and then you have

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Speaker 1: your own temporary label structure or whatever you wanna call it.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned the record the track is on a

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Speaker 1: triple A radio. How did it get there? Because nothing

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Speaker 1: happens by accident anymore. Well, um, I think there was

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Speaker 1: I think between the Orchard and Jim Grant, my manager,

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Speaker 1: I think they and everybody who was involved in like

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Speaker 1: the team, I think, um, you know, Mega Forest the label, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think they. I think they all thought that that

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Speaker 1: was a reasonable hope that we could get some airplay

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Speaker 1: on this kind of station. Like I knew. I knew

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Speaker 1: we could get played on if we got lucky, we

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Speaker 1: could get played on x RT in Chicago, and we

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Speaker 1: could get played on k XPN and Philadelphia, and we

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Speaker 1: could get played, um, you know here on k c

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Speaker 1: S n uh, you know in l A. I mean

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Speaker 1: I had this. That's the kind of station I had

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Speaker 1: in my mind. And those are all of what's called

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Speaker 1: triple A station. So that makes sense to me if

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Speaker 1: Mega Forrest and Jim and everybody else, we're going to

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Speaker 1: decide where to go. And I honestly though, I thought

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Speaker 1: if Casey MP and St. Paul played it a bunch

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Speaker 1: of times, a non embarrassing number of times in my

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Speaker 1: hometown and then it was over, I was I probably

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Speaker 1: would have been like, yeah, high fives, let's do that again.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't really think of it as likely to

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Speaker 1: be played all around the country like it is okay,

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Speaker 1: because you know, there's a lot of people making music,

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Speaker 1: however good that gets nowhere to play at all. How

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Speaker 1: are you the type of guy who's more of an

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Speaker 1: artist or are you also a student of the game.

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Speaker 1: If I were to talk about charts distribution, is that

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Speaker 1: you have expertise in that area? No, No, I'm I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm not that guy I had. Um. There was a

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Speaker 1: period when I tried to start, to some degree, out

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Speaker 1: of a sense of obligation or oldest son duty or something,

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Speaker 1: I tried to learn more about the business and try

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Speaker 1: to be very involved in like are very up to

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Speaker 1: speed on how Semi Sonic was doing, for example, or

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Speaker 1: what my what the songs I've co written are you

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Speaker 1: know doing? But I I kind of learned pretty early

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Speaker 1: that if I did that, I would just write songs

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Speaker 1: about money, you know, and like record sales and distribution.

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Speaker 1: It becomes it's like whatever you focus on in your

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Speaker 1: life is what you end up writing songs about. And

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Speaker 1: those are very very boring topics. And I really noticed

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Speaker 1: when I was really plugged into the business side how

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Speaker 1: much my songs would suck. So I kind of unplugged. Okay,

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Speaker 1: when before COVID when uh Semi Sonic was going to

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Speaker 1: play live dates. How many live dates was this? Well,

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Speaker 1: we would I mean we were going to play. I

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Speaker 1: would say the grandiose plan was something like thirty shows.

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Speaker 1: I think that's you know, I know that's not a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's okay. But yeah, but that's the balance.

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Speaker 1: My question being that you've put out this track and

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Speaker 1: the track is more successful than you anticipated. We all

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Speaker 1: know that the old game doesn't exist. Nothing crosses over

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Speaker 1: from triple A to top forty, etcetera. So they are

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Speaker 1: not inherently lucrative. They're not inherently large in terms of

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Speaker 1: social cultural impact. However, when what it has s sccess,

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Speaker 1: it does light a flame or turn the gas up

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Speaker 1: a little inside. So now that you've had this success,

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Speaker 1: to what degreed? He say, Wow, I'm turned on, I

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Speaker 1: want to go further down this path. Well, i'm m.

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Speaker 1: We put out the EP, we we made the EP,

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Speaker 1: and we were done with that at the end of

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Speaker 1: last year. Maybe the last mastering was done in December

375
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Speaker 1: or January maybe, and the it was always a plan

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Speaker 1: to just do this EP and then get started to

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Speaker 1: make another EP. So I didn't I think we probably

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Speaker 1: would have done it, whether we've gotten any airplay at all.

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Speaker 1: I just think it feels like the time, you know

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Speaker 1: for it, and we've done enough shows where you know

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Speaker 1: where we haven't forgotten how to be a band, but

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Speaker 1: we're all pretty excited about like kind of hitting it

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Speaker 1: a little harder and and also spending that time together.

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Speaker 1: There is a big part of this is just that

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Speaker 1: we're we cherish each other. It's kind of weird to say,

386
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Speaker 1: but we just because we love each other, we want

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Speaker 1: to do this. Okay, let's flip it over. So you

388
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Speaker 1: have this personal situation, you put the band on hiatus.

389
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Speaker 1: How do you become a song writer for hire? Oh man? Well,

390
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Speaker 1: I I had the picture in my mind because of

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Speaker 1: Carol King, who was my kind of one of my

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Speaker 1: childhood heroes. And she her name was on all these

393
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Speaker 1: records and she had hits of her own. So I

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Speaker 1: always thought that was one thing that someone who was

395
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Speaker 1: really cool could do. So I had that picture in

396
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Speaker 1: my mind, and the on the last Semisnic album, I

397
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Speaker 1: ended up writing a song by Crazy good Luck with

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Speaker 1: Carol for the Semi Sonic album. So I watched what

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Speaker 1: she did with me that was interesting and uh, well,

400
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Speaker 1: well let's slow down a little bit because Carol does

401
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Speaker 1: not write the lyrics. So what was interesting about the experience.

402
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Speaker 1: What did you learn about the experience? Well, I was,

403
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Speaker 1: first of all, I was super nervous to be with Carol.

404
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Speaker 1: I was We sort of imagined that we could be

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Speaker 1: writing a a semisonic song and we both were thinking that.

406
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Speaker 1: But but there wasn't It wasn't like this isn't a

407
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Speaker 1: label's idea of what to do when you're desperate, you know,

408
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Speaker 1: even like at that time, Carol wasn't a h you know,

409
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Speaker 1: the matrix or a Top forty you know, uh, one

410
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Speaker 1: of the villains of Top forty production. She she was

411
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Speaker 1: an icon. But we thought we'd write a semi sonic song.

412
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Speaker 1: And yet I had this idea almost like that. I

413
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Speaker 1: was that I didn't know if I was supposed to

414
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Speaker 1: be me or be her during this session. This is

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Speaker 1: a very early for me, like co write and she, uh,

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Speaker 1: she kind of guided me into a zone where we

417
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Speaker 1: were both having ideas that reminded each other of the

418
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: other one somehow, like I would. At one point, I

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Speaker 1: played a piano chord and I was like, uh, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know what about this cord. I'll show you what

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00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: the chord I played. Hold on, I played this chord.

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Speaker 1: I played that chord and I was like, how about that?

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Speaker 1: And she laughed. I said yeah, I said four over five.

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Speaker 1: You like that cord, Carol, And she laughed and she

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Speaker 1: said yeah, but it's it's not called four over five,

426
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: it's called c over K. And I was like, Okay,

427
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: you are a badass. Like I already loved her for that,

428
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: you know. But then at another point, she she had

429
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: an idea that was almost like tweaking closing time, like

430
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: she was sort of it was not satire, but it

431
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: was just her like taking the piss about closing time.

432
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: And uh, but we ended up using it because it

433
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: was awesome and I really learned from that. I learned

434
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: from this kind of like we found a kind of

435
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: a part of the playground where where both of us

436
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: were comfortable with the with the ideas we were having

437
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: and it was truly, uh collaboration. And that was like

438
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: almost like a masterclass. You know. That was like an

439
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: early moment when I really thought, oh, I could totally

440
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: do this. This is great because my hero knows. It

441
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: just showed me partly how to do it? Okay? So

442
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: then what happened after that? Then? Um, oh, I wrote,

443
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: I wrote a song that got I wrote a song

444
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: with Beck Runga, who's a New Zealander and she uh,

445
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: and I wrote a song that was in this movie

446
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: called American Pie that was pretty great. And then Semi

447
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: Sognic you were you were working with Semi Sonic. How

448
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: did you even get hooked up with this New Zealand? Uh?

449
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: Beck was signed to the same publishing company that Semi

450
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: Sonic was with, Warner Chapel, and Kenny McPherson, who has

451
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: been my publisher ever since, said, Hey, you know, I

452
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: have an artist who's like having a little trouble um

453
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: getting inspired and kind of stuck, and you wanted to

454
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: try to do a session with her. So we ended up.

455
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: We ended up. We got together and wrote a song.

456
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: And it's not like I knew how to do that

457
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: to like to help someone not be stuck, but we

458
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: wrote a real nice song. Okay, so keep going okay.

459
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: So then then Semi Sonic, Um, then I kind of

460
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: like somewhat cleared the decks and we stopped touring, and

461
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: I was putting out the word to lots of people

462
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: like in the Twin Cities, and you know where I

463
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: was from and where I lived, and you know locals

464
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: and other people. I'd like to write songs with people.

465
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: I want to I want to do collaborations. And I

466
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: just put the word out I want to write with people,

467
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: and um, the Minneapolis people didn't want to do it.

468
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: They were all very uncomfortable. They thought they're weird. Songwriting

469
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: method was unsuitable to show other people, which was already

470
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: interesting for me too to hear that, because it almost

471
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: becomes a universal like people are like, I can't write

472
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: a song with someone else because then I'd have to

473
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: show them the stupid way that I write songs. And

474
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: that that was kind of an insight for me, even

475
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: even to be refused on those grounds. And then um,

476
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: friend of mine who was an A and R guy

477
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: for Trip Shakespeare, my previous band, Steve Robowski uh contacted

478
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: me and said, I have an artist, Rachel Yamagata. I

479
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: think you would really get along great with her. She's

480
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: a she's a touring you know, rock musician, and she's

481
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: going to make a h a contemplative piano record and

482
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: and you guys need to write a song together. So

483
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: I wrote a song with Rachel. We had a great

484
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: We had a great time. She played it for Jason

485
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: Mraz and then a few months later Jason was at

486
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: my house in Minneapolis and we were writing songs, and

487
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: two of those songs we worked and ended up on Mr.

488
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: A to Z his the album that he was working

489
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: on and did did did it just likes it just

490
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: happened like that, like Pearson first and the person to person. Yeah. Now,

491
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: there are a lot of musicians. I know people musicians

492
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: who are dicks in real life, but they're unbelievable networkers

493
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: in music. They know how to relate to musicians. Are

494
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: you more the isolated type or are you heavily network

495
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: to begin with? And do you have any anxiety about

496
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: reaching out to people? Oh? I'm ah man, okay, Like

497
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm I have a real hard time asking anyone for

498
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: a favor of any kind. I have a very Norwegian

499
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: American shyness and like bashfulness. I guess about about getting ahead.

500
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: And I I'm not a great networker in that sense

501
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: of once I have someone in my network, I don't

502
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: go all right now I'm gonna call Bob and ask

503
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: him for this, you know. But I do, but I

504
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: do keep in touch with people, and I do, and

505
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: I cold call people, but I cold call people because

506
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, I love what you do. Let's hang out.

507
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: Like I like, A couple of my happiest musical relationships

508
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: are people that I just got in touch with randomly.

509
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: Somebody find me this person's email or phone number, I'm

510
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: just going to contact them. But once they're in my network,

511
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: I just it's not like they're there to be exploited.

512
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: I just I just love musicians. So I don't know,

513
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: I'm do you know what do you stay in touch

514
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: with people on the regular Banks you say I heard

515
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: from that person in a month, I say like, oh, okay,

516
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: so I'm not a month. I'm like six months. I've

517
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: never been a month. But I've always been like, oh

518
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: I haven't yeah, I haven't heard from them for a while,

519
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: or just like how you're doing, or I heard I

520
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: heard some news about you or whatever. I've always been

521
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: that kind of person, and I think there was a

522
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: time there was a sort of a turning point in

523
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: my life when I was doing a lot of painting

524
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: and I was selling a lot of paintings, and I

525
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I know I'm not cool enough to

526
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: be New York gallery artist, but I could probably figure

527
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: out how. So I was definitely thinking in those terms,

528
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: like what what do I need to do to be

529
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: able to just be a a painter and do that

530
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: as as my life, because I really love art and

531
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: I loved making art, and I was I was thinking too,

532
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, how do I crack that code and still

533
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: be myself? And I was sort of thinking maybe a

534
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: little bit like if if I have to transform myself

535
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: too much, I'm not going to do it. But I

536
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: was definitely thinking, like, what is it about my work?

537
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: This is not cool? I don't know so. And then

538
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: in music, it was an interesting time because I was

539
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: also like the only two choices were to like try

540
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: to adapt and but that's never gonna work, or just

541
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: be yourself and see what happens. So I couldn't really

542
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: decide between art of music on on the basis of, well,

543
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: this one is obviously working better than that one. I was.

544
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: I was still puzzled what it meant to be an artist.

545
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: But once I had done music and art at the

546
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: same time for like two years, it was really obvious

547
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: that being a painter is like super lonely. It's just

548
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: really lonely work, and you can't have people come in

549
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: and bug you. You've gotta be alone. Like they could

550
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: come in for a little while, but you know, in

551
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: your studio, if you're if you're in a building, but

552
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: you bas you mainly have to keep them out. And

553
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: I realized, I'm just not that guy. I just I'm

554
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: not built for that. Okay. But when you write for

555
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: Semi Sonic, you write the songs alone. Uh, what's the

556
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: difference between doing that and inherently starting as a collaboration. Well,

557
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: I wrote Um a d of You're Not Alone from

558
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: the New Semi Sonic EP. But I wrote UM Basement Tapes,

559
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: which is very autobiographical. I wrote that with Mike Viola

560
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: and Jenny Owen Young's two friends of mine who we've

561
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: written a whole bunch of songs together over time, and

562
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: they they just played the part of the co writer

563
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: in that session. If we go back to the Trip

564
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: Shakespeare in initial Semi Sonic, Yeah, era, were you mostly

565
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: writing the songs alone? Yeah? Most like a Trip Shakespeare.

566
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: I was the finisher for for my brother Matt's unfinished songs,

567
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: so he would finish, he would do most like half

568
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: the songs all alone, and maybe a quarter of them

569
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: I would finish, and some small proportion we would just

570
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: write together as a collaboration. But when Semisnic came along,

571
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: I just knew what I wanted and I knew what

572
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: it needed to sound like, and I knew songwriting wise,

573
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: like what had to happen and also what I had

574
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: to access. And so I end up writing those songs

575
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: alone because I just knew what was necessary and I

576
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: wanted to a lot of times I was writing for

577
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: our shows, like we don't have anything for them. It's

578
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: like there's always this dead period in the middle of

579
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: the set. You know, what is wrong with those three

580
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: songs that we keep We're switching out all these songs

581
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: into that middle section of the set, and it's always boring.

582
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: Why what can I do? And I would write songs

583
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: for that purpose, or I'd write a song to close

584
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: the show, you know, very practical when you were not touring.

585
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: Uh did you miss it? Yeah? I did, I did.

586
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: I missed it when when you know there's something about

587
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: being on tour is like really really tiring. You gotta

588
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: get you get to a certain point of like what

589
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: a friend of mine calls maximum tiredness, and then you

590
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: just like cruise. You're just that tired all the time,

591
00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: but you're also irresponsible and taken care of even your

592
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: food shows up in front of your face, and you

593
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: can party until someone comes through with a scowling face

594
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: and says, you know, hey, come on, we gotta go

595
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: back to the hotel. You need to get sleep. You

596
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: you you gotta get up early. Like that level of

597
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: like care free irresponsibility is amazing as an adult. Okay,

598
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: back in the day, did you take advantage of some

599
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: of the so called perks of being on the road, Uh, well,

600
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: in some ways, But I was. I got married before

601
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: any of this happened. Really like I like I I

602
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: my girlfriend and I who now my wife. You know,

603
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: we got together when we were in nineteen and twenty

604
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: or something like that, and we've been very uh deeply

605
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: intertwined ever since. So I didn't have like a phase

606
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: of like, uh, you know, sexual wildlife, you know, abandoned

607
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: and I I would have The road didn't offer me

608
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: any more drugs than my friends at home did, So

609
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think I did more drugs than

610
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: I would have done if I had just been a

611
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: dude staying in Minneapolis all the time, I would have

612
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: done it either way. I think this is gonna sound

613
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: super dorky, but like when I look at pictures of

614
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 1: me and John and Jacob on tour, it's like it's

615
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: us in front of the Eiffel Tower, and it's us

616
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: on you know, Bondai Beach, and it's us, uh, you know,

617
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: like slowly walking through um Westminster Abbey, you know stuff

618
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: that's like we really really wanted to see the world

619
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: and and and uh you know. Um It's almost like

620
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: tourism was for us. That was the drugs we we

621
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: could we could have just been on the bar circuit

622
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: and then all the drugs wanted. So okay, let's go back.

623
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: You work with Mr aid On, Mr a to Z.

624
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: What is your first breakthrough success as a songwriter, collaborator,

625
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: writer for a hire? Wow, okay, let's see. I mean,

626
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: I think it's not ready to make Nice with the

627
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: Dixie Chicks. I think I was working on an album

628
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: that eventually was called Free Life with Rick Rubin. He

629
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 1: signed me to his label American and we were working

630
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: on that and he played a bunch of the songs

631
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: that we were working on for the Dixie Chicks when

632
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,959
Speaker 1: he was producing them, and they they got excited about

633
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: a couple of the songs, but then also they got

634
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: excited about the possibility of writing us writing together. So

635
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: eventually Rick Rick put us together in in a in

636
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: a room after a lot of false starts. It was

637
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of reasons why things got canceled, but yeah,

638
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: that was the first one. Okay, let's go back to

639
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: one of my personal favorites. How did you end up

640
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: working with Gabe Dixon? Oh? Gabe a friend of mine,

641
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: Ah who worked at m c A as an international

642
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: promo guy and had traveled with Semisnic around Europe. Um

643
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: Uh introduced me to Gabe and basically they were It

644
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: was before anything like really had happened commercially from my

645
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: form my co writing. But Gabe and I had a

646
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: very magical um a couple of weekends in Minneapolis writing

647
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: songs and we wrote UM five more hours and we

648
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: wrote all Will Be Well, and we wrote we wrote

649
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: five or six songs that I think of as like,

650
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, possibly like lifetime type songs for for an artist. Together,

651
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: we really clicked. It was and that was before the

652
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: Chicks before I met Rick. It was early on. Okay, Well,

653
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of that initial work and then

654
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: the live rendition of that work, and Gabe has never

655
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: been able to equal that since artistically or commercially, and

656
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: he's sort of a hired hand piano player. Uh. That

657
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: demonstrated to me that you had a huge effect. Why

658
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: have you not worked with him again? Well? We did.

659
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: We wrote another song called My Favorite that came out

660
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: on a record of his like ten years ago. But

661
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: I think, like I think sometimes, first of all, when

662
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: Gabe and I wrote All Will Be Well, he never

663
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: he didn't think it was all that it was, you

664
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: know he was he didn't think it was special, and

665
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: everyone else thought it was special, um except for him.

666
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: So it's possible that he and I just didn't make

667
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: I think I think we made things that were sort

668
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: of I was supposed to make the difference, and I

669
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 1: think we made things that were closer to home for

670
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: him than, you know, than farther away. And I think

671
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: sometimes when people are on the co Wright train, they're

672
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: trying to find someone that's going to take them farther

673
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: from home so they can be different and then finally

674
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: get some kind of recognition because that maybe they're not

675
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: doing the right maybe just being themselves isn't enough, you know.

676
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: I think somehow that's possibly in the back of a

677
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: lot of people's minds. And labels are that way too,

678
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: Like if I if you writes, If I write a

679
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: song with somebody and it's it's the quintessential them song,

680
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: labels are like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, But we

681
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: need something that's got that spark of difference to you know,

682
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: really like there's a mental block against just being essentially

683
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: truly yourself. Can you give us any examples where you

684
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: took someone further away out of their comfort zone and

685
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: it worked. Well, let's see, I mean it's got to

686
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable to work. Uh adult kind of jokes that

687
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: I would, you know, make her weep. When we wrote together,

688
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: I wasn't mean I was never unkind or impolite, but

689
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: like it just was we had some very raw conversations

690
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: about difficult things. That was not easy. That was you know,

691
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: that was outside the comfort zone. But the songs are

692
00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: they feel very very authentically adele, you know, and even

693
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: those chick songs to right, um not ready to make nice.

694
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: I kind of had to convince them that that they

695
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: needed a song like that, and that they felt like

696
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: they just didn't want to beat a dead horse and

697
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: be talking about the same thing again and again. And

698
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: I was like, no, you need we need at least

699
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: one song where you just go head on into it,

700
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: like just walk through the fire in one song so

701
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: obviously that no one will mistake what you're talking about.

702
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: That's got to happen. How did you get hooked up

703
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: with a Dell to begin with? Same thing? Rick Rubin?

704
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: That was like, that was incredible bit of matchmaking. He

705
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: kept saying, you gotta do this, and like and and yeah,

706
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 1: I kept getting postponed. I'm canceled. And he would call

707
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: him and say, I really think, I really think you

708
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: need to write a song with this with Adele, she's

709
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: so amazing, and like he just you know, and he

710
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: did the same to her until we finally like hooked

711
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: it up. Okay, So tell me about that experience where

712
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: it was raw? Was that something conscious? What did you

713
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: inject into that songwriting session that resulted in that. I

714
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: don't think I injected anything. I think she I think

715
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: she wanted to talk about this raw emotion she wanted

716
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: to talk about she wanted to make a breakup song

717
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: that sort of reflected what she the story she was

718
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: telling about her feelings. I I don't think I um,

719
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I'm a good listener. I

720
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: don't think I did anything like I like when we

721
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: were the next day we got together. At the first day,

722
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: we wrote two thirds of someone Like You, and it

723
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: sounded pretty great. The second verse was terrible. There was

724
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: a bridge that was kind of tangled up in the

725
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: second verse. You know, there were problems. The vocal was

726
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: not as cool as we probably I would have wanted it.

727
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: But the second day, when we got together, I said

728
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: to her, so, do you want to keep working on

729
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: that thing we started yesterday or do you want to

730
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: work on a new song? And she was like, oh

731
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: my god, of course we have to finish that song

732
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: from yesterday. Like I was very happy to be like, well,

733
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: I guess, let's work on something else, and and she

734
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: was like no, no, no no, no, no, no no, we

735
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: gotta finish that song. So it wasn't like I was

736
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: a Spengali guiding her to success. I was actually being

737
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: very loose and goosey about you know what to do? Okay,

738
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: So she reveals herself and you're listening, what was the

739
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: next step in writing that song? Well, I mean it's

740
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: almost more like yeah, it's almost like she had a

741
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: she had a bass riff. She has this very interesting

742
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: one finger way of playing the bass. She doesn't I

743
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: don't think she's ever maybe she performs it once in

744
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: a while. She's just interesting way of playing the bass.

745
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: And she does that on on the low strings of

746
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: a guitar too. So she had this kind of bass

747
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: or low string guitar riff and a couple of lines

748
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: of of someone like you no title, I don't think,

749
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: or no chorus. But she had that beginning and that

750
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: that low BASSI riff on the guitar, and at one

751
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: point she was like, I don't know, this is just

752
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: you wan't Why don't you play it while I sing?

753
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: So I played that same riff on the guitar while

754
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: she sang, and she and she was like, I don't know,

755
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it would be more inspiring if

756
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: you played it on the piano. So I played it

757
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: on the piano and we immediately just like, Okay, that's

758
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: exactly how the song needs. Like it was really clear.

759
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: Now we're onto it like now we you know, once

760
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: you feel like you're onto something, it becomes very easy

761
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: to like get become very dogged and intense about it.

762
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: And so I think that once we heard that similar

763
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: pattern on the piano that she had been playing on

764
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: the guitar, it we could imagine the record and then

765
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: then it gets easier. And did you have any idea

766
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: that the record would be as successful as it was? No?

767
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: I mean we played it for my wife when I

768
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: came home. We were staying in l a in Las VELAs,

769
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: uh for a month, and I was doing I was

770
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: writing with people and doing stuff, and I came home

771
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: and played it for my wife and she said, oh,

772
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful song. And then, um, we never listened

773
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: to that, you know, didn't listen to it again. And uh,

774
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: then like a week later, I got a text from

775
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: the head of her label, Columbia saying, you know, basically like,

776
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: oh my god, Dan, this is a copyright. You know,

777
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: It's like okay, great, uh wow, Okay, let's go back

778
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: really way to the beginning. Okay, so you're from from

779
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: Minneapolis area. Did you literally were born there and grew

780
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: up there? Yes? I was born. Um, and when when

781
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: my parents were moving from the East Coast, where my

782
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: dad was going to medical school. My parents, my mom

783
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: moved back early to Minnesota. She had grown up in Appleton,

784
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: a very very small town in the western part of Minnesota.

785
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: My dad grew up in South Minneapolis, and his folks

786
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: were also from the western kind of small town Prairie

787
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: um area of Minnesota. So she my mom went back early,

788
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: and and I was born before my dad finished medical school.

789
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: We grew up in um you know, medical student housing,

790
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: my brother and I and then later my sister and

791
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: UM eventually ended up in a in a near suburb

792
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: of Minneapolis called Saint Louis Park. Okay, how many? So

793
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: there are three kids in the field. How does a hierarchy?

794
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm the oldest, my brother's second, and my sister three.

795
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: Okay not traditionally all the hopes and dreams and pressure

796
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: around the oldest kid. Did you feel that? Yeah? Probably,

797
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. I was like when I was little, Um,

798
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: I I can't I. I I tested as very very

799
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: very bright, Like I tested off the charts. And my

800
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: mom used to joke that every year they would, you know,

801
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: we'd get some somebody would come in with the school

802
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: and they'd assess me or whatever, and every year I

803
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: was slightly closer to normal and and uh, but there

804
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: was still a sense like I I was really bored

805
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 1: in school like many bright kids, I was bored in school,

806
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: and I distracted people, and I made remarks and I

807
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: talked while the teacher was trying to talk, and I

808
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: was very I was not only entitled, but I would

809
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: make the t your laugh while they were trying to teach.

810
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: And and eventually, like there was certain kind of compensatory

811
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: things that the school's tried with me, like an elementary school,

812
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: I had this. I had this. I went for part

813
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: of the afternoon to another teacher that taught me higher

814
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: level stuff and it's like having a tutor for being smart.

815
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: And also during that time, I developed a lot of

816
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: nervous ticks, like I just so maybe maybe I was

817
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: feeling the pressure to be sort of a bright kid

818
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: or like to be a successful, you know, fourth grader

819
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: or whatever. And my parents got very alarmed that I

820
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: started developed developing all these physical ticks, and um, they

821
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: they phased out some of that special treatment. So I

822
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: just got more and more normal as time went on.

823
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: But I think there was always a sense that my

824
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: parents had were like of that age where they were

825
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: both kind of artsy, but they're The step their generation

826
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: had to take was to was to do something like

827
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: measurably successful. So they you know, my dad became a

828
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: doctor because that was a logical next step for the

829
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: family to have a kid who was a doctor. And

830
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: then I came along, and my siblings and I came

831
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: along basically in the whatever makes you happy, you can

832
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: do whatever you're like, we still love you no matter

833
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: if you have a professional or not. That was our

834
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: next step. Okay, prior to the billionaire tech e's in

835
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: Wall Street. You know, doctors made a good living. Was

836
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: your father did he support your desires and whims or

837
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: it was like, go if you want that app go

838
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: out and make the money yourself. He Uh. My parents

839
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: were um, like they didn't have any toys. They they

840
00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: they we had we built my my my my grandfather

841
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: other on one side was a carpenter and my grandfather

842
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: on the other side, um had done plumbing for a

843
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: while when he was younger. My mom's brother was an electrician,

844
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: and my dad was willing to carry heavy things. And

845
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: between the four of those dudes. They built this small

846
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: house in northern Minnesota, and that was the family's toy

847
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: that was like the one like what we had on

848
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: that on the lake that that we that the that

849
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: the house was next to. We had a canoe and

850
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: a you know, a fourteen ft h rowboat with an

851
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: upboard motor, and that was our toys. And and my

852
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: parents had this kind of very prairie Norwegian, anti um flash,

853
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: you know, uh, anti toy kind of attitude. And so

854
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: I kind of grew up with that too. But they

855
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: they they supported us in the sense like when when

856
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: I was in like eighth grade and I was doing

857
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: a paper out in the morning early mornings and I

858
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: was slinging ice cream at an ice cream shop and

859
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: the in the evenings. My dad offered to half pay

860
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: for a guitar and an amplifier for me if I

861
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: saved up. So I saved up, and I bought a

862
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: guitar in an amp in eighth grade. And okay, so

863
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: you were going to public school. Yeah, and what kind

864
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: of kid were you? Remember? The group and outsider, a

865
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: nerd someone? What what were you? I was? Um? I

866
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: was smart kid. Most of my close friends were really

867
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: smart nerdy kids. I also made really really wicked caricatures

868
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: of people. Uh. I had a I could get a

869
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 1: likeness with pen and ink, and so I would make

870
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: caricatures of the teachers and they would confiscate them, but

871
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: they secretly liked them. And I I would make caricatures

872
00:52:54,760 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: of of mean kids and kind of court disaster, but

873
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, like making caricatures of bullies and and uh

874
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: So I was thought of as a smart kid. But

875
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: I had this sort of weird superpower of being artistic.

876
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: So I was I was given a pass to some degree. Okay,

877
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: what inspired you to buy that guitar? In the amph

878
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: My brother and I when I was summer before eighth grade,

879
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 1: I think my no, maybe before seventh My parents gave

880
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,479
Speaker 1: my brother Matt and I one super cheap acoustic guitar

881
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: to own together. And we we co owned this acoustic

882
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: guitar for years, and we loved the Beatles. And the

883
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: summer we got that guitar, we got some books mel

884
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: Bay or whatever those books are that show you the

885
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: chord shapes, and we learned a bunch of chords, and

886
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: then we started to try to write songs of our own,

887
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: and I all my songs from that time. It's really interesting.

888
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,240
Speaker 1: My songs were really I was really trying to sound

889
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: like George Harrison, like I was trying like I wasn't

890
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: trying to sound like McCartney, maybe because I didn't know

891
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: enough chords. It's possible. But my brother Um had a

892
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: little more unique musical style from the get go. Uh.

893
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: But we were both like trading back up. But we'd

894
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: have the guitar for an afternoon and we'd each try

895
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: to write a song the next day. Okay, but you

896
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: got the guitar, the electric guitar in the app then

897
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: was the goal to go out and play in bands?

898
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: And did you do that? The goal was to go

899
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 1: out and playing bands. I wasn't um. I wasn't good

900
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: at the guitar, but I was taking lessons and I

901
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: kind of um. I quickly abandoned. I sold that guitar

902
00:54:54,160 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: and I got um a bass because I had noted

903
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: that UM bands always needed bass players, so I got weirdly.

904
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: I also at the time was listening to weather Report,

905
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: so this is probably seventies seven. I was probably sixteen

906
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: or seventeen now when I switched from guitar to bass

907
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: and I got a fretless bass, so I could be

908
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: like Jacko Pastoria. So I learned how to play fretless bass,

909
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: and then I played this odd choice of instrument in

910
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: in whatever rock bands my brother was in. Essentially he

911
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: was a drummer. Okay, now you end up going to Harvard.

912
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: How does that happen? My grades were great. I was UM.

913
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: I used to go around to the magazine offices in

914
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: Minneapolis and show them my cartoons, and I would try

915
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: to see if they would buy my cartoons. And there

916
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: were a couple of magazines that were kind of youth

917
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: oriented magazines around Minneapolis that ended up starting to use

918
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: the drawings that I made. And so so when I

919
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: applied to Harvard, I had good grades and and not

920
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: insanely good grades, but really really good grades. And and

921
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: then also I just killed the s A T S.

922
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: I killed him. Okay, so what was your experience at Harvard?

923
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: I I loved it, I really did. I loved UM.

924
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: I studied stuff because I was interested, Like I took

925
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: a history of science classes because I I wanted to

926
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: know what This is going to sound so lofty, but

927
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what knowledge is and how humanity

928
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: has gathered it and organized it and revered it or

929
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: or despised it, whatever the response. I wanted to know

930
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: about the meta of scientific knowledge. So I took sciences

931
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: history of science classes. I took some. I took a

932
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: couple of music classes, but I didn't like them. I

933
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: played in bands. I had a couple of bands that

934
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: played that basically took me out in Massachusetts on the weekends.

935
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: So I didn't party at Harvard in the on the weekends.

936
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: I drove out with the band too, two clubs in

937
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: various places, Peabody and hang Him and I know all

938
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: those places. My mother's from Peabody. Okay, But you know

939
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: you end up as a fine arts major. How does

940
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: that happen? I just think that was the most interesting

941
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: thing to me. And there was a big brief period,

942
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: or maybe a two year period, where I started thinking, well,

943
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: maybe I ought to become an architect. Maybe that's what

944
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: an artistic young person ends up doing when they want

945
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: to have a proper job. And so I got some jobs.

946
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: I got some jobs with architects offices. I studied for

947
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: a year or so at Harvard the History of Architecture,

948
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: and I took I took one applied architecture class, and

949
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I could do this, and my parents. Um.

950
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: The summer between my junior and senior year, my parents

951
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: kind of gathered me up and do you know what

952
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: we really want to know? Are you trying to become

953
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: an architect because it's a profession that would make us happier?

954
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: Are you trying to be a professional when you really

955
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: just want to be an artist? And I was like,

956
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: maybe maybe architecture feels like a professionalized way to be

957
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: an artist. And they said, well, don't do that for us,

958
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: because we don't need you to be a professional. You

959
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 1: don't have to have it, you don't need to go

960
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: get a graduate degree or do anything for us. If

961
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: you want to be an artist, you need to start

962
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: now and just do it. I wish I had your parents.

963
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: What wait, right, at what point does the music thing

964
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: become serious? I got UM. I went out to I

965
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: went out to San Francisco with my girlfriend and we

966
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: we went UM. Jacob Slicktor whom uh drummer and Semi

967
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: Sonic was our friend in college and he went out

968
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: there with us and lived with me and and so

969
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: the three of us were out there like trying to

970
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: make our way. Um, Jake and I wrote songs together.

971
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: We were thinking about being in being in bands. I

972
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: gotta I got a job at a graphic design company.

973
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: I made signage for for a law lawsuits. Okay, you're

974
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: now graduated from Yeah, we're out of college. We're out

975
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and my brother in Minneapolis is putting

976
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: together this band took Shakespeare and they made a record

977
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: there a trio and they made a record with bass, drums,

978
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: guitar and the left speaker and guitar and the right speaker,

979
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: and but they're only a trio. And my brother and

980
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: in this band had stopped playing the drums and he

981
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: was singing and playing guitar, so he he played both

982
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: guitars on the record. But they needed a guitar player.

983
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: And he asked me, when I was San Francisco, would

984
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: I consider moving back to Minneapolis and playing the right

985
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 1: speaker guitar uh for this band Shakespeare and I thought

986
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: about it. Um my girlfriend was heading to New York.

987
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: We said we decided to live separately, and I went

988
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: to Minneapolis to be in this band with my brother Matt.

989
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: And what were you doing for money? What are we

990
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: doing for money? Like in in San Francisco, I was,

991
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: I was doing graphic design. In coming back to Minneapolis,

992
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: I lived in a big house with lots of other

993
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: people in a dangerous neighborhood, and my aunt had my

994
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,439
Speaker 1: great aunt had died and left left me a couple

995
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: of thousand dollars around. Then it goes a long way

996
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: when you're nothing to spend it on. It wasn't like

997
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: I was getting any and see dinners or yeah, so

998
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: I just basically had rent and food. So how do

999
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: you end up getting a deal with A and M

1000
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: with crypt Shakespeare. My brother was really really smart about

1001
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: the the hustle of music. He did a lot of things,

1002
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: like he he made a zine that was devoted to

1003
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: the band, but basically had a whole bunch of different

1004
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: articles about different things related to trips Shakespeare in this zne.

1005
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: And for a while he just um stapled the zine

1006
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 1: to uh telephone poles around the city. And then eventually

1007
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: it got to the point where he would as they

1008
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: would also like fans would take them at shows and stuff.

1009
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: But at first it was literally just a zne that

1010
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: appeared on telephone poles, and my brother was I don't

1011
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: know sort of in charge of like having a being

1012
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: driven and having the idea of having a band that

1013
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: did well. When I joined the band, I had a

1014
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: very anctional role. I was playing the second guitar and

1015
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: singing harmonies, and I got a digital piano and I

1016
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: played piano and some songs. But my brother was in

1017
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: charge of us being successful. Okay, you get a deal

1018
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 1: with A and M Records and it doesn't ultimately work out,

1019
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: why does the band break up or what happens there?

1020
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: It was just really frustrating that the the label signed

1021
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,919
Speaker 1: us out of enthusiasm. They came to the shows and

1022
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: they saw how much people love the band and how

1023
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: hilarious my brother's raps were and how um improvisational and

1024
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: crazy we were on the musical side. And then you know,

1025
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: it's the very familiar thing of how do you capture

1026
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: that on a recording? And we never did crack that code.

1027
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: You know, who knows why, but we never did figure

1028
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: out how to make records that sounded the way are

1029
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: spontaneous sometimes you know, overblown shows felt and I we

1030
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 1: got were very Eventually, I got really frustrating, and I

1031
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: think that that's why the band stopped and I kept

1032
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: I kept writing these songs that my brother Matt would

1033
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: teasingly say that I was listening to the radio too much,

1034
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: But in my mind, I was like, I want to.

1035
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: I want to write things to get played on the radio.

1036
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: I want to. I want to write short, concise things

1037
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: that that catch your ear and our you know, unforgettable,

1038
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: and I want to. I want that to be what

1039
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: I do. So how do you form semi sonic? Jacob

1040
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: had been in um Minneapolis for a while. He moved

1041
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: several years after I left San Francisco. He moved, and

1042
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: you know, we continued our friendship and we wrote songs

1043
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: on the side together and made recordings. Then when when

1044
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: Trip Shakespeare kind of slowed down and like that, uh,

1045
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: my brother wanted time away from the band and wanted

1046
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 1: to do something else. We asked John from Trip Shakespeare

1047
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: to play bass and start a trio and we called

1048
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: it Pleasure and we were like, we were not going

1049
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: to work too hard. We're we're I made a manifesto

1050
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: which was if a song isn't sounding good after an

1051
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: afternoon's effort, then I'm going to throw it away and

1052
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: write a new song. That was one, Uh, if we're

1053
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: having a bad time in rehearsal, we have to go

1054
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 1: down to the lowering bar and have a drink. And

1055
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: that was too And I think the third I think

1056
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: there were three, and the third one was life is

1057
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: more important than music. Okay. Having said aled that, how

1058
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: do you end up with a deal with m c A. Uh?

1059
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: You know, we we had a bunch of true believers

1060
01:04:55,520 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: in the music business by that point. I Karen Glauber

1061
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: had been kind of indie rock or alternative rock um

1062
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: expert at a m for a little while while we

1063
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: were there, and we got to know her there and

1064
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: then she went off to I think she was working

1065
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: at Hits magazine or something like that at that point.

1066
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: And I called her up and I said, I have

1067
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: some I have some new songs with John and Jacob.

1068
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: I want to send them to you. And she was like, yes, yes,

1069
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: please send them. And she goes out they good and

1070
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: I said, I said, oh, yeah, I think they're really

1071
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: really good, and she goes, do you want to start

1072
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: a bidding war? So I guess that was how it

1073
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: was done. Wow, And who is the manager at that point?

1074
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: Were we without manager? I think we were without a

1075
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: manager at that point okay, so you make a deal

1076
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: with m c A. Well, we made a deal with Elektra.

1077
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: We made half of a record. They dropped us when

1078
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: Sylvia Rhne came, Sylvia Rown said, we said, can we

1079
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: have these recordings? Will go somewhere else? She said no, no,

1080
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 1: you can't have them, and uh, basically we've completed and

1081
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: then um when and her reason for not needing us

1082
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: anymore was that they are they the label already had

1083
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: Third Eye Blind, so they didn't need Semi Sonic as well.

1084
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: So so eventually though, when we organized for m c

1085
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: A to buy the record, the half record from Elektra,

1086
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: Sylvia Rohne relented and took the money, and then we

1087
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 1: finished the rest of the record on on m c A.

1088
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: So they got a free look at what it was

1089
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: going to be. And you end up having a couple

1090
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: of big success is Closing Time and Secret Smile. Did

1091
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: you know those were going to be successful? Was there

1092
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: something else you thought would be successful before that? I

1093
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 1: m hm, similar similar to the story I told you

1094
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: about someone like you. I I thought that Closing Time

1095
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: was a really great song to to wrap up our shows,

1096
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: and we had already put out Great Divide the album before,

1097
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: the one that was made for two different labels, and uh,

1098
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: I had I had this. I sort of had some

1099
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: gaps in the set list that I wanted to fill

1100
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: and Closing Time was one of them. And and secret

1101
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 1: Smile arrived in a dream I had a dream of

1102
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: I would say three quarters of the song. And I

1103
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: quickly wrote it down and went back to sleep. And

1104
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 1: then the next morning I got up and played it.

1105
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: I had written it down, I played it. I was like,

1106
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: this is this is great? Wow, I wonder what this is.

1107
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: So I asked a lot of my friends what is

1108
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: this and they were like, I've never heard this before.

1109
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: So that song was like not part of a master

1110
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: plan of any kind. And when we did when we

1111
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: finished the record, I asked Nick Lawnay, our producer, what

1112
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,919
Speaker 1: do you think the single is. I think it's Closing Time?

1113
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: I said, but what I'm curious what you would say?

1114
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: And he goes, oh, no, no, no, not closing Time.

1115
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: That's that's for the punters. You don't want that, never

1116
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: you mind as a as a better song you you

1117
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: Closing Time is? I don't. He didn't say it was

1118
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:58,439
Speaker 1: too dumb, but essentially he thought it was too low brow,

1119
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: which I didn't under dand I didn't get that. I

1120
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: thought it was great and then ore and then are

1121
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: um like. I played the record to my wife and

1122
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: said what do you think? Like, what do you think

1123
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: the single is? And she said, well, it's time to

1124
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 1: go big And I said, okay, but you have to

1125
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 1: tell me what that means. She goes, well, if you're

1126
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: going to go big, that means you have it has

1127
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: to be secret smile or a closing time. Then we

1128
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: sent it to m c A and they were like,

1129
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: we're sorry, we don't hear anything. There's no singles. If

1130
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 1: you want more money to record, we'll give you more

1131
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 1: money to record. But now we don't hear it. It's

1132
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: not gonna happen. So what happened? So I was like,

1133
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: I called up my manager Jim. We talked about this.

1134
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: That was it was. You know, they didn't hear it.

1135
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: They didn't hear it hit, they didn't hear a single.

1136
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 1: We weren't, but they'd give us more money to record.

1137
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: And Jim's like, well, what do you think? And I said, well,

1138
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: I love the idea of I could write some more songs.

1139
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: That sounds cool, and he goes Okay, wait, wait, let's

1140
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: just think about this for a minute. And I'm like okay,

1141
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: and he says, all right, they send you fifty dollars

1142
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: to go record like four more songs or whatever it's

1143
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: going to be, so you have to write them. So

1144
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: you're writing that, you know, four new songs, three new songs,

1145
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: four new songs. Can you guarantee me that those are

1146
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,799
Speaker 1: going to be better than singing in my sleep closing

1147
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 1: time and secret smile? And I'm like, well, no, of

1148
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 1: course not. The three songs you just named are really great.

1149
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: How can I guarantee that these new songs are gonna

1150
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,799
Speaker 1: be better? And Jim's like, well, well, so you imagine

1151
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,719
Speaker 1: you're the person at the label who commissioned the new songs.

1152
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:27,640
Speaker 1: Which ones are you going to choose to be the

1153
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: next semi sonic single? One of the songs that you commissioned,

1154
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: or one of the songs that you rejected earlier? And

1155
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I guess if I'm the label, I'm

1156
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: gonna select one of the songs that I commissioned and

1157
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: not one of the ones that I refused earlier. And

1158
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: Jim's like, okay, right, so, but what if you don't

1159
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 1: beat the songs, what do you think they'll do? And

1160
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: I said, they're still going to pick one of the

1161
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 1: new ones even if I didn't beat the old songs.

1162
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 1: Jim's like, right, do you want that? And I'm like no,

1163
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: and he goes, okay, then just don't answer your phone

1164
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks. So they called and called

1165
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 1: to get me to relent, and we ignored them and

1166
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: ignored them, and then eventually they got a new head

1167
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: of radio promo, woman named Nancy Levin, and she's like,

1168
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 1: what are you doing with this? This closing time is

1169
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 1: a smash? What's what's up with this? Like? And they're like,

1170
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 1: oh no, we you know, we we we we rejected

1171
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 1: that already. She's like, wait, give that to me. I'll

1172
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: make it huge. So it all worked out. You have, oh,

1173
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: just back the secret smile. Tell me about the dream

1174
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: and how much of the song came from the dream. Dream.

1175
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: The dream was the first verse. Nobody knows it, but

1176
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: you've got a secret smile. And the dream was so

1177
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: use it, improve it. It was that that was in

1178
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 1: the dream. Uh, there's no no, And then it looped

1179
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: back and I it was no second verse, and there

1180
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: was no bridge. Okay, so the dream was the actual

1181
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: songs or the dream was a woman who had a

1182
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: secret smile. No, the dream was the total the song.

1183
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: I you should know by now, I'm not dreaming about girls.

1184
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm dreaming about songs. Okay, speaking of songs, you had

1185
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: a Vine series six seconds of basically information on songwriting.

1186
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: How did that come to be? That was? That was?

1187
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of fun because that's that has continued in

1188
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,719
Speaker 1: in the most lovely way. My manager Jim had seen

1189
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 1: um a vine series by a screenwriter named Um Coppelman. Uh,

1190
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: Brian Complan. Yes, I was basically on his first name,

1191
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: Brian Coppleman, and he had this things to be in

1192
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 1: the music business, right, So he had this thing where

1193
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 1: he was going to do a hundred days of six

1194
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: second screenwriting tips and I think he called it like

1195
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: writing a screenplay in six seconds or something like that.

1196
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: And my manager, Um, Jim, linked me to this on Vine.

1197
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: So you got to look at these. So I looked

1198
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: at them and I was like, this is amazing, and

1199
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: Jim goes, you could do this in music and I

1200
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, you think so, and he said, just

1201
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 1: give it a try. So I was very resistant, and

1202
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: then I did like six or seven and I was like, oh,

1203
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: this is really fun. I really like this, so I

1204
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: I started doing that now. Actually, right now, I'm in

1205
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,800
Speaker 1: the midst of like, okaying, I've made a deck of

1206
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 1: cards based on this, and it's it's like each one

1207
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: has one of these six seconds comments on it and

1208
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: it's called words of Music in six seconds. But it's

1209
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 1: a deck of cards. Then what is the plan with

1210
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: the cards? Um? To have people give it to their

1211
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:52,679
Speaker 1: niece who's a songwriter as a gift. Okay, how come

1212
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: until your manager told me about this, I didn't know

1213
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: about it. Not the cards but the six seconds. Um.

1214
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: That will have to be a question for people who

1215
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: understand the marketing and getting the word out. Well, the

1216
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,640
Speaker 1: reason I mentioned this his most sheet is crap and

1217
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 1: I was unaware of this and I checked on it

1218
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: and it was brilliant. You know, it's funny you mentioned

1219
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin is a Twitter feed You used

1220
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 1: to be very intermittent, now much more active, which is

1221
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 1: essentially this. But he ran out of things. It's you know,

1222
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 1: they don't always say yours is better than his. Uh,

1223
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: it's funny because yeah, I've noticed him kind of starting

1224
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 1: to do this, and I'm I'm curious if he's seen mine.

1225
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: I'm curious, but his the vibe of his are very different.

1226
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 1: Obviously it's it's very rick, but but I'm what I'm

1227
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: trying to do with with mine. I'm thank you for

1228
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: saying that you think it's cool, because I love it

1229
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 1: and I think I have a community um on you

1230
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: know social media that like I'm often here from people

1231
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 1: that are that will say, you know, when I have

1232
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: when I have a session, we we look online to

1233
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 1: see what your latest words of music in six seconds is,

1234
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 1: just to see if it inspires us. And to me,

1235
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: that feels like a role that's amazing that I can

1236
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: play in my songwriting community. So I hope, I hope

1237
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: we can make more of it. But why why didn't

1238
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: you know about it until my manager told you? I

1239
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 1: don't know. Let me ask you a different question and

1240
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 1: I'll get back to that. Okay, give us some of

1241
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: your greatest hits, you mean, in the in the six seconds? Okay,

1242
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 1: if you like it, then it's good. If it sounds

1243
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: good to you, then it sounds good. Okay, how do

1244
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: you come up with the since you're doing them on

1245
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 1: a regular basis. It's it's it's like it's like writing

1246
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: a song or being a writer. I'm like, oh, it's

1247
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: been a while since I've didn't I've done some. I

1248
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: could spend an afternoon and write a whole bunch. So

1249
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: I'll write like thirty or forty, and then they'll always

1250
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 1: be like three that are good, Okay, so you'll discard Yeah, yeah,

1251
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 1: a lot a lot of them are because because it

1252
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: has to be pithy. It has to be a little

1253
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 1: it can't be just what you expect to hear. It

1254
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: can't be preachy. It's got to be um. There's gotta

1255
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 1: be a ray of hope and it. You know, it

1256
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 1: can't just be like never do this, you know, because

1257
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 1: that's just a drag. It's gotta it's gotta be. There's

1258
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: a lot of things that there's a needle to thread

1259
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 1: in my mind of how to make how to give

1260
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 1: first of all, how to give good advice. It's not easy.

1261
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:26,799
Speaker 1: You don't want to bump people out. What's a secret

1262
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 1: to good advice? Well, I mean, it has to be actionable.

1263
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: It's got to be open ended. It's gotta it's gotta

1264
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 1: leave the person room to solve the problem. You know,

1265
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:39,559
Speaker 1: it can't be the solution to the problems. It can't

1266
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: be like an algorithm to a Rubik's cube. It has

1267
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 1: to be it has to be like, you know, a

1268
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 1: guide for finding algorithms to Rubik's cube. You know, it can't.

1269
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: You can't just solve the problem for the person it's

1270
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: It has to be um. It has to leave open

1271
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: ended the possibility that the advisor is wrong. There's a

1272
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: lot of things that that you know, people try to

1273
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 1: give advice. It usually sucks, it's usually terrible. Well, I find,

1274
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,839
Speaker 1: generally speaking, when people don't listen to the advice anyway,

1275
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: so it's great and they do what they want. They

1276
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: just wanted you to say that you're that their thing

1277
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 1: was great. I can also spot that if someone's like,

1278
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: listen to my song and tell me what you think,

1279
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,759
Speaker 1: and I listened and I talked to them for ten seconds,

1280
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 1: I can tell if they really want me to say anything.

1281
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: Usually they don't. They just want me to say, you

1282
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 1: are fucking amazing. I love what you've done. I got

1283
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 1: in a couple of bad experiences because I feel bad

1284
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: for people. I've literally sat there with a and our

1285
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: people say you know, listen, I told this guy's version,

1286
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 1: but I'm never signing his act and I've talked to

1287
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 1: the actual Oh I'm gonna make a deal. Okay. So

1288
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 1: I used to be honest. Okay, and not only do

1289
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,480
Speaker 1: people not want to hear it, they go on Vendetta's.

1290
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had some really bad experience on a

1291
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: macrobe up okay, you know, and therefore I don't pretty

1292
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 1: much never respond to anybody in the quality of their

1293
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 1: music because the way you know you said it exactly

1294
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 1: nails it. But going back, we talked about Rick. His

1295
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 1: tweets are basically Graham Puba like he produces record. Let

1296
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: me get you in the head space so that you

1297
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 1: can be creative. Most of the people who are giving advice,

1298
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 1: especially in the music business, which is a dumb business,

1299
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:23,599
Speaker 1: they're doing it because they want to write a book,

1300
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: to make money or to improve their image. Okay, anybody

1301
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 1: who does it out of a genuine care. Okay, they

1302
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 1: don't even see this appen. So as soon as I

1303
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 1: saw them, I really had no idea. It's talking like

1304
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 1: IM blown, smoke up your ass, But I was really stunned.

1305
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 1: I just figured it being you know, some craft but

1306
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,879
Speaker 1: not only was it correct, you could get a vibe

1307
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: for the person who was doing it. It was quite

1308
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 1: definitely you. That's that's it's like a it's writing. It's

1309
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:57,680
Speaker 1: a piece of writing. It's not just words, and it's

1310
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 1: not just a functional it's a piece of writing because

1311
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:04,759
Speaker 1: that helps. Like if it was poorly written, how could

1312
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 1: the advice have any teeth? It's got to be like

1313
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: beautiful because otherwise people would would would understand subconsciously that

1314
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,360
Speaker 1: this sucks. I can't listen to this guy. Well, you

1315
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 1: open up a real can of worms there, because most

1316
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 1: stuff does suck, and and most people are playing to

1317
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 1: the audience. So to do it your way and to

1318
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 1: show some identity. This is one of the things you

1319
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: know in music forget you know, people say, don't make

1320
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: it too general. People relate most when it's specific, when

1321
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: you talk about a specific example in your life. So

1322
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: there's a whole business of people giving advice, and your

1323
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 1: advice and your six seconds was better than any of

1324
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 1: the advice that uh that I've come across. Now, one

1325
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,680
Speaker 1: thing I've learned is people, as I say, end up

1326
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 1: doing what they want to do. But if you know,

1327
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 1: if this songwriting thing didn't work out for you. You

1328
01:18:56,960 --> 01:19:01,559
Speaker 1: could create a business with this advice. You can have

1329
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 1: a weekend seminar with this advice. Do it Rick style.

1330
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: Give the advice and then don't be too involved until

1331
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: the end. Don't be hands on in the middle. Whatever

1332
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 1: you know, try try to get the people inspired. I

1333
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 1: think the fact that you're doing the cards is really good,

1334
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 1: but it's a little still, a little too inside baseball

1335
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,000
Speaker 1: and the But the other thing is there needs to

1336
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: be stories, like there should be a blurb on this

1337
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 1: in the off duty section of the Wall Street Journal.

1338
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:36,799
Speaker 1: It's on Saturdays, because people with money, they're frequently frustrated artists,

1339
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: and they buy this for their kids. Okay, you put it.

1340
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: You put it in a music magazine that people are

1341
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: too cheap to buy it. Wait, I'm gonna write this down, Okay,

1342
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 1: And you know you should also certainly get it and

1343
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 1: if you can with a story and best bets in

1344
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:57,560
Speaker 1: New York magazine, how do you reach a thinking audience,

1345
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:01,679
Speaker 1: because since music gets no risk back from the other

1346
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 1: art forms movies and books, it's certainly books. They think

1347
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:10,360
Speaker 1: they're high falutin when you bring something somewhat intellectual where

1348
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 1: they have to come to you. That's advantageous, but I

1349
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: don't want to go too much more down that because

1350
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: that's our that's between you and me. How does how

1351
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: does someone end up being able to write a song

1352
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 1: with you? Well? People, Um, the way it works is, uh,

1353
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:34,519
Speaker 1: my publisher or Jim or the world will um put

1354
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 1: an idea in front of me, like I might see

1355
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: somebody online, or I might I might think I'd love

1356
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 1: to meet that person or whatever, and or um, my

1357
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,599
Speaker 1: publisher will say that we've got this you know young artists,

1358
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:50,799
Speaker 1: that's so good and would you have coffee with them? Um,

1359
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,640
Speaker 1: or you know, my manager Jim will say, there's a

1360
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: there's a in our and our person is going crazy

1361
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 1: about this artist. They really really want you to listen,

1362
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: and I'll listen. So I listened to a bunch of music.

1363
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: Usually if I have coffee with someone, it's already decided

1364
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:06,599
Speaker 1: because I usually like everybody. So I'll be like, oh,

1365
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: that were they were great, that was amazing, Like, for sure,

1366
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 1: I'll write a song with them, But but there's a

1367
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 1: lot of effort that goes into just not like during

1368
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 1: COVID you can write a song on zoom, you know,

1369
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 1: but it's twice as exhausting as it was in person.

1370
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're depleted instead of inflated at the end.

1371
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's a it's got its limits, I

1372
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 1: would say. So I'm doing like two sessions with people

1373
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 1: a week, maybe three, but probably two. I like to

1374
01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:37,799
Speaker 1: have two days with a person. I like to sleep

1375
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: on it and come back to the same song. That's

1376
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 1: harder to do during COVID, but it's been doable, and

1377
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 1: it's harder for me to do because that means I

1378
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: really only would be writing one song a week, but

1379
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 1: I'd rather I'd rather have that second day with a person.

1380
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 1: And uh, the main thing I listened for is like,

1381
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:00,639
Speaker 1: is you know raw songwriting? Like are the words cool?

1382
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:05,280
Speaker 1: Is there something unique being said in the words and

1383
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: the and is the melody getting me? It's more like

1384
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 1: the words and the resonance of the person's voice, just

1385
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 1: the shape of the sound of their voice, Like is

1386
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 1: it when they go for a note, is it bigger

1387
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: because of their resonance? You know when they say a word,

1388
01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:27,879
Speaker 1: does it shine a little extra because of their literally

1389
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:30,679
Speaker 1: just the tone of their head, you know, the way

1390
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,680
Speaker 1: they sound. And that's kind of what I'm looking for

1391
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,320
Speaker 1: is like that resonance and a person who has something

1392
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: to say, okay, is it a slog or you're just

1393
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,879
Speaker 1: building to that moment of inspiration and it writes itself

1394
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:45,040
Speaker 1: half half and half like I never find it to

1395
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 1: be well. I find it to be a slog if

1396
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 1: the person is too uncertain, if my collaborator is too unsure,

1397
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 1: if they're so unsure that they're also secondhand smoke unsure

1398
01:22:57,520 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 1: of my ideas as well. I find that to be

1399
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 1: a slog. And sometimes a person's insecurities or uncertainties or

1400
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:05,640
Speaker 1: wish to be great makes it hard for them to

1401
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: recognize a great idea in front of their nose. And

1402
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 1: and that is to me difficult. If I feel like

1403
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, if I'm like channeling something really good right now,

1404
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't know, maybe should be working

1405
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:20,680
Speaker 1: on something else, I immediately start thinking, Okay, this is

1406
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 1: a slog because I just saying something really great. And

1407
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm not a total egomaniac, so I I know when

1408
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 1: i'm like really on, and I know when I'm okay, okay.

1409
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,719
Speaker 1: Desmond Child, who's written a lot of very successful records

1410
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: the Internet era. He's saying, you know, the economics have changed.

1411
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: If it's not gonna be the emphasis track, shall we

1412
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:44,799
Speaker 1: say the single? He doesn't even want to start because

1413
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of you got the fourth song

1414
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,280
Speaker 1: on the album is to be carried by the CD.

1415
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,599
Speaker 1: Now there's nothing right, So do you make any choices

1416
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 1: based on that? Well, um, I mean yes and no.

1417
01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: Like often enough, a song that I work on gets

1418
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: the emphasis, so I'm not discouraged about that. I also

1419
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 1: don't necessarily at this moment um want to just I mean,

1420
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 1: it sounds like Desmond would be willing to just stop

1421
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 1: making music. If he doesn't isn't getting any emphasis track

1422
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: on somebody's record. But for me, that's no. He's you know,

1423
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 1: like many people, he's evolving Broadway shows. It's not like

1424
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: he's not busy, but he's not always going to song

1425
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 1: writing sessions with a person. That makes sense to me. Yeah,

1426
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,880
Speaker 1: So you know, I can sometimes tell when you know,

1427
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 1: if an artist and a label, uh want to work

1428
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:36,559
Speaker 1: with me? Oh. This is sort of weird to say,

1429
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:41,439
Speaker 1: but I feel like sometimes a label will think, oh,

1430
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:45,200
Speaker 1: this artist needs to hang out with Dan because then

1431
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: they'll get their mojo back. And I'm fine, with that.

1432
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:50,400
Speaker 1: But but I don't want that to be my job

1433
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 1: getting people's mojo back. I want to make I want

1434
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:55,759
Speaker 1: to make great songs. Okay, you talked about secret smile

1435
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: coming to you in a dream? Are the best song

1436
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 1: songs like that the come to you in a flash?

1437
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:03,840
Speaker 1: Or can it be a song equally good if it

1438
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:07,760
Speaker 1: had been a slog? Well, it's more like you can.

1439
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: You can duke it out with a song. You can

1440
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,640
Speaker 1: be like in a session with somebody or alone, and

1441
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,559
Speaker 1: you can be trying and trying and trying, and that's

1442
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 1: usually not if you just if you're only doing that

1443
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:19,720
Speaker 1: all the way to the end, it's not going to

1444
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:23,920
Speaker 1: be great. But sometimes you know, during the slog, you

1445
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 1: accidentally take a wrong turn or you you leave the

1446
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 1: path you know, and you're suddenly you're in a wait

1447
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 1: a minute, something is is good? Now, something just happened

1448
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 1: that was good. Then if you have the balls to

1449
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:42,160
Speaker 1: to cut out the previous three hours of work and

1450
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 1: just work on the one line that is it obviously happening,

1451
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,439
Speaker 1: that can be the flash of inspiration that comes out

1452
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:52,760
Speaker 1: of a slog. I'm definitely a believer and like I

1453
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 1: had a painting and printmaking instructor who said, um, you know,

1454
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:00,599
Speaker 1: go to the studio every day even if you're not inspired,

1455
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 1: And I'm like, why why should I go to the

1456
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,400
Speaker 1: studio if I'm not inspired, I'd rather go to the bar,

1457
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 1: and she goes, yeah, But if you go to the

1458
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:10,040
Speaker 1: bar and the muse visits your studio, you're not gonna

1459
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:13,799
Speaker 1: be there. So I'd rather have the slog because sometimes

1460
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:15,560
Speaker 1: in the middle of the slog, like lightning strikes and

1461
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:17,720
Speaker 1: you're like, oh shit, this is amazing, you know. So

1462
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 1: I find usually the best this is solo work. In

1463
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:23,759
Speaker 1: my case, the best inspiration usually comes in the shower

1464
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 1: or when you know, I'm completely distracted by watching a

1465
01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:31,840
Speaker 1: movie or television show, when my head is sold so

1466
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 1: out of it. In terms of the work in the office,

1467
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: I find I have to slow down enough well you

1468
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 1: just kind of drift him and then all of a

1469
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 1: sudden something for the muse to me to reach. Yeah,

1470
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 1: I get that. That makes sense to me. And that's

1471
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: like that sense of aimlessness is hard. It's hard to

1472
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 1: kind of even the word achieve is the right word.

1473
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: It's hard to achieve that kind of aimlessness. It's hard.

1474
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 1: It's hard to fake you cannot get yourself. Okay, how

1475
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:05,720
Speaker 1: did you end up working with Chris Stapleton? Stapleton, I

1476
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:09,519
Speaker 1: can't remember who saw him first. There was this clip

1477
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:16,679
Speaker 1: that I saw online of Stapleton playing, Um, it wasn't

1478
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:18,840
Speaker 1: whiskey and you it was another song of his playing

1479
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:21,240
Speaker 1: a song at like a state fair and he was

1480
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: it was with the steel drivers, Oh it was. It

1481
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 1: was if it Hadn't Been for Love? And uh, he

1482
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: was singing this song and there's people talking and someone

1483
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: holding their phone, and there's people talking, and there's noise

1484
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: and he's playing in one of those kind of like

1485
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 1: the the tractor part of a semi trailer with the

1486
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:47,479
Speaker 1: side flipped up that does a temporary stage, you know,

1487
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:50,599
Speaker 1: and uh, he singing this song. It's all this background

1488
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:52,400
Speaker 1: noise and he's singing if it Hadn't Been for Love,

1489
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is unbelievable. This guy is amazing,

1490
01:27:56,040 --> 01:28:02,480
Speaker 1: Like I can hear it through the noise. And so then, um,

1491
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 1: my manager Jim and I, Uh, every once in a

1492
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: while he would he would send me, like we'd send

1493
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: each other the same clip like you having a bad day,

1494
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,920
Speaker 1: you got to hear this, and and we'd send each

1495
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:17,400
Speaker 1: other the same clip, and uh, eventually there was this.

1496
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 1: I was asked to write with the Preservational Jazz Band.

1497
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 1: I was like, something, we gotta someone has to come along,

1498
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:26,479
Speaker 1: who can like bridge the gap between like me and

1499
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 1: the Preservational Jazz band who's good at lyrics? And Stapleton

1500
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:34,880
Speaker 1: was like, maybe maybe he'll come. So basically, oh, and

1501
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 1: I had done and in the round with him where

1502
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 1: I sang after him at an ASCAP show, it was

1503
01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:43,639
Speaker 1: like four writers. It was like Ingram Michaelson and Johnny

1504
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: Resnick and Chris Stapleton and me. So every time we

1505
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:49,719
Speaker 1: went around, I had to sing after one of Chris's

1506
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:53,640
Speaker 1: crazy amazing like soul full, you know, like what do

1507
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:57,200
Speaker 1: you call this? Like blockbuster, you know, hit songs. So

1508
01:28:57,280 --> 01:28:58,760
Speaker 1: I and we had a fun time on that show,

1509
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 1: and we we talked all of that after, right, So

1510
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 1: I called him up. I said, can you come down

1511
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 1: to New Orleans with me and write with the Preservational

1512
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: Jazz Band? This is before Traveler And he was like yeah,

1513
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: but Dan, you know, I don't know anything about jazz.

1514
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I know, but I think it's gonna

1515
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:15,599
Speaker 1: be cool. So we had we in the band, the

1516
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 1: you know, the Press Hall band, and and Chris and

1517
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,680
Speaker 1: I had an amazing long weekend, like four days of

1518
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:26,679
Speaker 1: songwriting and laughing and fun. And then when Chris would

1519
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: come to l A for one thing or another, he'd

1520
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: come by my house and we'd write. We'd write a song,

1521
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:34,680
Speaker 1: not really first particularly a purpose. And then that one

1522
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: of those songs was when the Stars Come Out and

1523
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: he and he put it on Traveler and one of

1524
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:44,719
Speaker 1: the best songs on that album. Okay, in the twenty

1525
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:47,400
Speaker 1: odd years you have left, what do you want to do?

1526
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 1: What do you want to achieve? Oh? Man, I'd like

1527
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,760
Speaker 1: to go to Paris again. I want to keep and

1528
01:29:55,760 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 1: I want to keep making music. I want to um see,

1529
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:06,519
Speaker 1: you know my middle schooler grow up and graduate and

1530
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 1: have a life. I want to keep meeting amazing brilliant

1531
01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 1: artists and see if we can't make something incredible together.

1532
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 1: And where does a painting fit in. I don't really

1533
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 1: paint anymore because it takes a lot of like infrastructure,

1534
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 1: you have to have a house that's with an extra

1535
01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:30,599
Speaker 1: room where you can be very messy, and I haven't

1536
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:32,000
Speaker 1: had that for a while. And I guess maybe I

1537
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 1: haven't like prioritized it. I always try to do visual things,

1538
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:38,759
Speaker 1: like you know, I'm I did. I did the design

1539
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:40,680
Speaker 1: on this book of cards. It's you know, it was

1540
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: a fun exercise for me. I do. I make um

1541
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 1: drawings in my journals and I keep that part of

1542
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:50,640
Speaker 1: myself alive. But it's it isn't really part of my

1543
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 1: vision for the future to like retire from music and

1544
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:56,760
Speaker 1: be a painter. Nothing of the sort. Not like Joni Mitchell.

1545
01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:00,640
Speaker 1: Why Paris. I just the couple of times I've been there,

1546
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:02,599
Speaker 1: I've just enjoyed it so much. I just I just

1547
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 1: love that place. I want to go back to. Speaking

1548
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:05,800
Speaker 1: of art, I want to go back to the Louver,

1549
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: and I want to see the tweeries and I want

1550
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 1: to see um l Entrelie, you know, I want to

1551
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 1: see those places again. Well, you know, it's twenty I

1552
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: hadn't been for a long time, and I went five

1553
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:21,880
Speaker 1: years ago, and the one thing I noticed was the light.

1554
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: The light really is different in Paris. I mean, you know,

1555
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:28,120
Speaker 1: it's like it's hard to fathom until you're there. You go, okay,

1556
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: I can tell why the artwork, etcetera. And certainly you know,

1557
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:35,080
Speaker 1: going to see all the museums. You know, I pretty exhaustively.

1558
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 1: It's pretty astounding. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely that's I mean,

1559
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:41,160
Speaker 1: it's not really a do you know, I've had a lot.

1560
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of good fortune, So it's not

1561
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:47,960
Speaker 1: like I it's not like my my list has more

1562
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 1: success on it. And what do you think you moved

1563
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 1: from Minneapolis l A. You're cool with l A or

1564
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 1: I love it? Because I love it. I have It's

1565
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 1: with me about a year and a half to realize

1566
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 1: that when I moved here that I didn't need to

1567
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:05,760
Speaker 1: change who I am. I could just stay being me.

1568
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 1: I already had a circle of friends, I knew the

1569
01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 1: people that I wanted to play on the records. I

1570
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:16,760
Speaker 1: didn't have to become some sort of pop version of myself. Um.

1571
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,439
Speaker 1: And once I realized that, like, it was almost like

1572
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 1: l A just opened up to me, like, oh no,

1573
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: now you can meet some really smart people. Okay, here's

1574
01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: here's some neuroscientists for you to talk to. Here's you know,

1575
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 1: someone to have lunch and talk about that. Like, I

1576
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:32,320
Speaker 1: just like the It's like l A has so many

1577
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 1: brilliant people and there's a level of even though it's

1578
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 1: got a bad rap on this score, there's a level

1579
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 1: of idealism that I really really resonate with. Okay, and

1580
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:47,280
Speaker 1: going back to the muse, do you create every day? Yeah?

1581
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 1: Pretty much Like even if I have like a crazy

1582
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 1: chocolate block day and there's no room, I've probably played

1583
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 1: piano for like forty minutes that day, or guitar something.

1584
01:32:57,760 --> 01:32:59,600
Speaker 1: Try to think of a riff or think of a

1585
01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: phrase ease. And prior to going this covid era, if

1586
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:06,160
Speaker 1: you went on vacation, would you take a hiatus or

1587
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: create then too. I kind of have an agreement with

1588
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:11,320
Speaker 1: my wife that I'm not going to bring a guitar

1589
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: and play guitar all day long in a vacation. That's

1590
01:33:13,439 --> 01:33:18,439
Speaker 1: not fair, So I actually do take breaks on vacations. Yeah, Okay,

1591
01:33:18,439 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 1: this has been wonderful, Dan. I think we've gotten a

1592
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:23,439
Speaker 1: lot of insight into your life in your process, and

1593
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:26,679
Speaker 1: I could and I could tell why you're successful. And

1594
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:29,679
Speaker 1: thanks so much for doing this. A total pleasure, really

1595
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 1: it It is a really nice conversation and it's good

1596
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:34,840
Speaker 1: to giving him until next time. This is Bob left

1597
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:35,160
Speaker 1: six