WEBVTT - Our Digital Miscommunication Crisis + Ways to Avert it! 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.720 Really now really. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.440 Really, no, really hello, and welcome to really know Really 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.920 With Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. This episode is about 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.160 how often we miscommunicate, our tendency to interpret text messages 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.200 as negative, the issues of video conferencing, the phenomena of 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.000 phone phobia, and the value of using emojis, like if 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.600 we texted you and said please subscribe heart and prayer 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.640 hands emoji, maybe you'd do it. So please subscribe heart 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:39.120 and prayer hands. And now here's Jason and Peter, Hello everybody. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.680 And even that could be misinterpreted. I say hello everybody, 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:46.280 and it could be misinterpreted. That's that's oh yeah, I 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.199 mean why did he say hello and not I? And 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.600 why is it everybody doesn't include me? Are really today? 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.840 Is that recipients of say, a two word email or 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.560 a text such as nice job or great work is 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.920 misinterpreted as being sarcastic or snyn and. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:03.480 Give the answer. Yet let him think, what do you think? 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.559 The number is at home six sixty percent of the time, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.679 And it started with me and producer Lauria. And she's 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:10.959 not going to get mad if I say this, But 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.280 Laurie has an angry, resting place, and I've known Lauria 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.919 and a lover for twenty five years who worked together. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.560 But I was getting text while you were away doing Broadway, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:20.679 and it was like, we're doing this, and I was 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.600 realizing I'm taking them negatively, right, So then we started 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:29.360 joking them negative. But we started then writing each other 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.679 like see you tomorrow, said with a bit of grace 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.679 and acknowledging your that. But then I said, wait a minute, 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:39.400 we need to do an episode in this, because if 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.000 they're misconstrued, this off six sixty percent of time. And 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.440 most people think when they send a text that ninety 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.560 percent of the people receiving it receive it the way 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.120 they're sending it, and it's nowhere close to that. So 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.120 I saw that doctor Nick Morgan, who's an expert in 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.360 communication public speaking, had talked about that specifically, so I 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.440 wanted to get him on to address that because I figured, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:03.760 if if we're making errors like that, I mean, I 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:05.720 get a text going how is dinner? And I go, oh, 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.680 you're saying I didn't invite you. I people go negative. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.360 By the way, because because we were initially caveman, it 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.639 was a survival thing that our default is negative. I'm 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.320 gonna get eaten. I'm gonna my parents kept on going. 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:20.840 That made what that analogy made no sense. I don't 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:21.080 want to. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.160 No, we have a negative default, and he'll talk about it. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.640 I think negative default because we were cavemen. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:29.840 Because of response of fighting. 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.079 If you said to a caveman, nice job, he went, oh, we. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:37.360 Go, yeah job. And by the way, today one in 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:40.000 five office workers say they have been reprimanded, demoted, or 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.959 even fired over misinterpreted messages. And texting is the way 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.560 we're going. It's it's becoming more prevalent than email because 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.679 it's convenient. So let's say how to do yes. 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.880 But this man is an expert in in body language 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.320 and RHETORICI you you coach public speaking, you are a 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.000 renowned teacher and author. You're I think we are very 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.359 is fortunate to have you here. If he's hearing anything 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.160 other than what I intend right now, I'm in big trouble. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.440 I'm being very flattering, are and I am being very 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:09.639 Did I do it right? Doctor Moore? 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.800 Beautifully warm and at home and well loved? 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.120 Well? Thank you? That is Jason. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.920 So was I right about the fact that texting is 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.800 now picking over? Where is this all going. 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.800 Well, it's all going to be misunderstood at at a 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.120 really startling and alarming rate. And that's the real issue. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.000 I urge people to use smiley faces and emoticons of 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.920 various kinds, even if you think they're childish, because that 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.520 at least produces the negative bias that we're talking about earlier, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:44.200 which is profound. 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:44.880 And just to. 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:52.480 Explain doctor Alexander what it's about. You imagine yourself as 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.440 a as a cave person leaving the cave and walking 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.360 through the savannah or the jungle or whatever, and you 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.640 see a shadow out of the corner of your eye 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:06.000 if you're uh kind of California dude, and you go, hey, cool, 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.320 that's just a nice shadow. The next thing that happens 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.720 is you get eaten by a sabertoothed tiger. If you're 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.240 the anxious type, you take evasive action. We're descended from 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.640 those anxious people that kept us, kept them and us alive. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.120 Research, by the way, tells me that the sabertooth tiger 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.280 and the Homo sapien did not co exist at the 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.560 same time, according to the tar pets where I'm told. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.560 But that's fine. I understand what he's saying, and you 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.640 know what ext predators. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:43.560 Hey, the subtext I am not an expert in, but 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.120 what you're hearing here from my partners. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.360 The subtext here is because I proposed that and was correct, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.160 and you reinforced it. He's a little bit irritic just 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:52.239 to tad that is correct. 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.120 You communicated that perfectly. That is correct. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.960 I've seen that in all these surveys in businesses they 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.360 feel their emoticon and stuff. Emojis are less than professional, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.400 especially over a certain age, under a certain age, much 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.400 more acceptable over a certain age. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.560 And and to tack onto that, there are so many 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.080 of them now that you know. I sometimes I'll send 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:17.880 a text and I'll try and be creative. So there's 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:21.400 one that's like a goofy face, you know, and I'll 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.240 put that on and and then I go, well, I 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.200 wonder if that can be misinterpreted that I'm what you know, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.320 that doesn't say probably specifically enough, so yeah, it's you 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.239 probably get misunderstood, or it probably means something already. 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.040 Yeah, thanks to the teenagers some of whom may be watching, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.240 they've already appropriated and used it for something else. I 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.760 like to use the laughter face with the two tears 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.240 coming down out of the eyes, and my son, my 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.880 teenage son, tells me that that's I can't do that anymore. 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:54.880 That doesn't mean I won't tell me what it means, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.520 but he says, it doesn't mean what I think. 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:58.760 He won't tell you what it means. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.960 No, you won't, he said. As I'm it's I'm hopeless. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.200 I'm too old, too very. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.320 Much sweet relationship good with son. Doesn't it feel like 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.080 i't home even the expert son's going on. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:16.400 Yeah, But that's just to sort of drill into that 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.360 a little bit, because I have the same situation with 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:19.920 my grown sons. I have a thirty one and twenty 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.920 seven year old son, and Peter has grown children too. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.600 It's hard, just hard. It feels like they call this 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.680 in some ways the age of communication. I find that 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.480 communication in general is getting harder and harder and harder, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.680 even having I have a group of friends. Peter is 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.960 one of them with whom I have substantive conversations and 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.360 we know each other's hearts well enough that we can 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.360 be irreverent, and everybody understands it's trying to amuse each other. 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.440 It's trying to be in fun. There's never any harm 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.120 intended from it. But I find that the circle of 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.480 people with which I can have real communication gets smaller 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.240 and smaller and smaller because there's so much open to 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.720 interpretation that is unintended. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.080 Yeah, people take offense, and the reason is that what 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.640 we care about is each other's intent, and intent comes 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.000 through strongly. 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:09.720 Face to face. 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.840 We have the five senses, and we get facial expressions 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.640 and a smile and a nod, and when we move 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.880 closer to people, we warm up the relationship. You can't 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.840 do any of that on a text, and so the 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.040 potential for it being negatively interpreted is vast. And on 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.600 top of that, you reference that we're sending more and 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.480 more texts. We're getting drowned in more and more information. 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.520 We have to move faster and faster, so we're sending 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.520 them more quickly, hence the typos, and we're reading them 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:45.480 more quickly, thereby opening ourselves to misinterpretation, so that it's 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.520 a never ending doom loop basically of communications. In spite 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.600 of the fact that we're surrounded by all these tools, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.080 in all these wonderful ways to communicate. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.480 We're also multitest driving in today, I just was looking 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.400 around more than usual to see how many people were 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.040 texting while they're driving. So I don't even have your 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:04.760 full attention while you're texting me back. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:09.000 You don't even or sadly you have their fish and 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:10.720 the driver next to the crash. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.200 The part of this that I think comes through that 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.400 Laurie and I were joking about the Goddess into the episode, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.320 was it also diminishes the person who's receiving it. You 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.680 write something heartfelt and somebody sends you back liked, they 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:25.920 hit one button to say you couldn't even get your 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.120 thumbs going to say hey, I really appreciate you. I mean, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.000 that is diminishing. And I think that all that does. 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.640 This all chip away at communication. And again I don't 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.120 want to be the guys that's the next generation without 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.240 face to face contact is missing out on something that's 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.160 really important to getting things right. 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:45.360 So if the. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.360 Errors are that prevalent, how is that impacting society? What 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.800 are we getting wrong societally that's chipping away at our communication? 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.600 Well, I think the evidence is all around us. I mean, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.520 especially during the pandemic, incidents of mental health issues went 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.600 up and up and up, and drug abuse and alcohol 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.360 abuse and so on them we became more depressed, more alienated, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.319 and more isolated lonelier as a society, and the face 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.199 to face interaction is one way to help that get 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.000 a little bit better. 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:26.520 Doctor Morton. 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:34.960 Is, there seems to be even in face to face communication, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.680 there seems to be so many more, for lack of 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:46.560 a better word, landmines, unintended mishaps or insults, or this 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.480 whole canceling phenomena. Sometimes somebody espouses something which is really 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.040 reprehensible and they pay a social price for it. But 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:58.080 sometimes it's truly unintended, or they're discussing something that has 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.840 you know, it's more than just a cut and dry thing. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.360 It's a discussion to be had, and we are so 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:10.240 quick to judge people and punish people in the act 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.520 of trying to communicate, even face to face. I mean, 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.240 you spend a lot of time teaching people to communicate 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:24.120 more effectively, But I don't even know what question I'm asking. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.200 It just seems like it's becoming harder and harder and 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:32.800 harder to express yourself fully and genuinely without being misinterpreted 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:37.360 or without somehow offending someone unintentionally. How do do you 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:37.839 agree in it? 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:38.080 So? 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.640 How do you, how do you deal with that? 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.160 Well, I think that's well, first of all, it's an 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.839 interesting question, and second, I think it's a it's sort 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.120 of a combination of trends that are ultimately healthy for 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.680 society and trends which are not healthy. And a lot 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.280 of the issues that we're talking about have no question, 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.679 been made worse by the by the digital world we're 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:05.199 living in. No question, we're also becoming more open. I mean, 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.000 when I started in the public speaking business, somebody was 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.840 going to get up and speak. They would never share 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:15.200 any of their individual history, their personal history. They would 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.720 talk about some business issue or some academic issue. Nowadays 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.920 it's odd if you don't share something of your personal journey. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.559 We want to know what do you have at stake here, 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.400 what's in it for you? And so I think on 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.600 the whole, that's a healthy trend. But it also means 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:35.720 there's a lot more personal, prickly, potentially embarrassing, vulnerable stories 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.080 out there, and we do get across if you step 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.079 on those stories or make us feel bad about them. 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.839 So I think all of our sensibilities and sense of 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:46.320 vulnerability have increased. 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.760 So how have we changed it for COVID? How much. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.320 Had society change, I know that zoom, we probably wouldn't 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:55.960 be able to do this. And I'm not sure of 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.640 the year when this happened, but it used to be 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.520 guessing we're in person stuff. Now it's acceptable. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.559 Zoom is the zoom became a thing during the pandemic? 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.600 I mean, I know, I think it existed before the pandemic, 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:09.200 But has it changed in any profound way the way 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.079 we communicate, the way we do this has videocy Yeah. 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:17.000 Oh absolutely what I was working on a book on 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.320 virtual communications in twenty seventeen, I would ask people in 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.760 the Fortune thousand company how much videocarpacying do you do? 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.720 How widespread is it in organization? It turned out on 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.800 average it was five percent organization use video currency. In 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.040 twenty twenty, I happened to call back one of the 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.160 CEOs I had interviewed in twenty seventeen. I said, how 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.360 you doing and he said, yeah, it took us three days, 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.440 the entire companies using it. It was a huge sea 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:48.120 change because we had to keep working somehow. And now 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.440 now we're hybrid and we can do it either way. 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.679 And it's actually we don't think of it this way 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.920 because we had to live through a pandemic to get here, 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.640 But it's actually broadened our communications palate andiful way we 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.360 can connect. The three of us can connect, whereas before 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.120 it would have involved travel on at least one of 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:12.199 our parts, right, jet lag and uncomfortable nights and hotels 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:13.680 and bad food and whatever else. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:20.600 Wow. But anecdotally it's also created a situation. Again, one 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.840 of my big things is I always prefer real human 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.360 contact rather than technology. But I anecdotally know more people 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.040 who are really upset when they're when the mandate is 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.640 let's get back to the office, they don't want They 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.120 much prefer this. They don't want to get back to 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.840 the office. Is that I'm not sure if this is 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.360 your area, But is that a does this totally compensate 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.640 or or are we missing out on something by not 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.360 gathering at our workplaces and having real contact. 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.560 Well I'm smiling because I worked with a number of companies, 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.760 with the executives and the companies to figure out how 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.760 to communicate with their employees during the during the pandemic, 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:11.600 and they when of the pandemics started easing, set up 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.000 these task forces and committees to study what what would 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.160 be the ideal amount of time in office versus on 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.600 Zoom or on video comfting. And one company I remember 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.040 in particularly because this happened pretty recently, studied the problem 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.200 for six months. They had a vast team of employees 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.040 at all levels of the organization to figure this out, 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.480 and they came up triumphantly with the idea that three 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.960 days a month was the perfect amount, so everybody in 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.440 office to be in the office the rest of the 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.160 time you can work on Zoom. And this was because 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.200 of productivity and savings in terms of how much office 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.760 space you needed and travel and so on and so forth. 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.800 The policy had been in place for three weeks when 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.680 the executive team announced, okay, it's three days a week. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.560 They threw out all the research and just changed it 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.480 in the moment. Why because executives don't feel like they 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.640 can do what they're hired to do, which is manage 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:12.360 people effectively on Zoom. And the truth is you can't. 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.800 Managing is still pretty much a face to face thing 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.800 because of all the nuances of human emotion and interaction 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.400 that we talked a little bit about earlier. So they 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.120 they can't do it, but it's very it's very hard 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.600 on the employees who feel like, wait a minute, I 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.280 have to go back to commuting. I have to go 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.200 back to putting on long pants and the press shirt. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.640 I have to long pants. How about just pants? Curing? 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:40.080 I mean, give me yes, please, looking I can't take 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.400 my dog for a walk. You know a lot of 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.080 things that I got used to doing. Hang out with 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:45.520 my kids for an hour during the middle of the 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.600 day when they come home from school. You know, those 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.160 kind of things really made for a nice quality of life. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.120 And by the way, most of those employees were more productive, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.560 but it didn't work for the management and guess who 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.720 runs companies. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:58.600 And the management teams. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.960 Research showed that eye contact is important and people don't 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.160 make eye contact as much on Zoom. And then I 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.320 saw also with interviews, especially a first interviews, job much 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.600 more negative if the interview is done on Zoom than 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.640 it's done on person because they can't get all of 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.040 the rest of the stuff. So again, are they trying 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.560 to Is there a way to make Zoom better from 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.160 a communication standpoint that you see. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.880 The real reason that you have those experiences, The real 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.560 reason Zoom or any video communication isn't really great yet 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.080 is something that they don't teach you about in school. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.840 It's called appropriate reception. It's your sixth sense, and it's 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.640 the sense that you use unconsciously to keep track of 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.800 where you are in space so you don't bump into things, 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.200 and where the people around you are in space. And 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.920 that's very important to us. We care very much whether 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.200 you're moving closer to me or away from me. We 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.360 care if you're within a few feet of me, so 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:57.520 you're in my personal space versus more distant. So you're 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.320 tracking that all the time, and in fact, you track 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.840 that if you're a partner, if you have one, so 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.840 that you don't roll over and punch your partner in 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.040 the head that night while you're asleep. You're doing this 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.879 twenty four to seven. It's a really important sense, and 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:10.800 they don't tell you about it in school. So what 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.600 happens on zoom is you two look to me like 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.240 you're about an arm's length away, So that would say 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.000 you're in my personal space and I need to pay 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.560 close attention. But you're the wrong size for that. You're 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.320 too way too tiny to be that close. So my 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.920 proprioception sense goes where the heck are these people, and 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.800 it causes me stress, but I can't work out where 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.080 you are. And so after a while I start to 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.040 tune out, and I say, these people aren't real. They 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.000 I don't know where they are. They're not really in 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.480 my personal space. So I can't interact with them in 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.600 the way that I would if they were as close 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.639 as my next screen was. So yeah, that's the real issue, 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:50.560 is proprioception. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.320 I actually worked with an improvisation company that was on 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.199 a Zoom sort of beta test. It was it was 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.120 not Zoom, it was something else where they could move 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.280 forward and back in the screen. They could they could 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.080 sort of keep a distance so it looked like they were, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.639 you know, further way or if they wanted to emphasize 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.919 something or take the stage. Because it was an improt 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.719 it was a way to do improvisation on a screen. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.720 They could move forward and move downstage. It was very strange. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.760 It was really really strange. 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.880 I have to see the propritation you did it unsightfuled 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.200 close talker of the close close talker is the thing. 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.200 The other thing that I read and I just remembered 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.399 it now, is that the person on Zoom is using 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.800 what they call anchorman energy. In other words, you're sitting 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.040 differently than you would when you're just hanging out. You're 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.840 projecting differently, and there's a fatigue to that that everybody 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.800 on there is projecting Anchorman. And whereas if I'm sitting 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:49.920 with you, I'm at lunch, I'm kind of doing whatever here. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:51.560 I have to sit up. I have to be paying 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:52.520 attention to something. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.159 You come to take a meeting with me and you 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.360 sit back in your chair with the spread legs like that, 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:58.919 You're out of here, buddy. I'm not taking that kind 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.720 of attitude from you. The man is an expert, doctor 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.360 is an expert in body language. What do you think 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.160 you're saying to me when you sit back like that 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:10.520 legs akimbo, with your attitude, with your little attitude. I'm 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.280 picking it up, right, am I? 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:12.520 Right? 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.600 Dona, you got it, You caught it. I'm sure the 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.520 man is an expert. It's the first thing you're in Sussians, 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.879 your lack of regard or respect, your sort of I 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.680 don't even need to be here. I got it all. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.879 So all these years we've had a proteo perception problem. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:28.679 Oh yeah, and we didn't and you never told me, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.040 you know, I didn't have a word. 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.200 Right, Well, guess right, I'm here for you now. 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:34.080 All right, how do you like that? 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.120 I'm here totally private? Tell me what you gotta tells better? 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.520 Better know why it's better you're off, Mike, you gotta. 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:41.080 I got a mold. 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:42.080 It looks it looks like. 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.360 You're off. I was making a point, was making a point. 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.399 But I should have told you about the ultimate space, 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.720 which is the intimate space that's eighteen inches to a zero. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.920 And and that's a powerful taboo. Only your intimates can 0:19:58.359 --> 0:19:58.879 violate that. 0:19:59.160 --> 0:19:59.840 You're not kidding. 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.600 Eighteen eighteen inches to zero. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.320 Yeah, it's my new my personal space. 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.400 Maybe a little bit wider than zero. 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:14.840 I got to remember that, doctor, so you talked about 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:16.440 you know, I know one of the things we started 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.240 this conversation with was texting and how to make texting 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.160 more clear and our intention more clear. But I actually 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.800 worry about all of our sort of text of communication, Mike. 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:33.800 Like Mike, My older son his college entrance essay was 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.879 about phone phobia. Is phone phobia? Both my sons have 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:42.760 phone phobia. They are insanely nervous about speaking to someone 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.840 on the phone. They will do anything to avoid it. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.040 You mean speaking live, speaking live Yeah, And do you 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.600 see any trending in younger people to being worse and 0:20:54.840 --> 0:21:00.159 worse at interpersonal live spoken communication because we're doing so 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.399 much of the texting and the typing, and that I 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.800 just worry that we're getting that having a person a 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.800 person live in space conversation is just going to get 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:10.440 harder and harder. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.640 I think there's absolutely no question that that's happening amongst 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.640 especially amongst young people or anybody who spends a lot 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.160