Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and today i'd like to
Speaker 1: present an interview I recorded earlier this month with sir
Speaker 1: Ian Livingstone, co founder of Games Workshop and co author
Speaker 1: of the Fighting Fantasy game book series. Now, the creations
Speaker 1: to come out of Games Workshop especially have meant so
Speaker 1: much to me over the years, and it was a
Speaker 1: real honor to chat with him about the early days
Speaker 1: of Games Workshop, about old school gaming in general, the
Speaker 1: meaning of games, and of course his new book dice Men,
Speaker 1: The Origin Story of Games Workshop, which he wrote with
Speaker 1: Steve Jackson. The book is out now digitally. In the
Speaker 1: physical version is either out or available for preorder, depending
Speaker 1: on what region you're in. Either way you get it,
Speaker 1: pick it up. It's a great read. It has so
Speaker 1: many wonderful images in it. It will really transport you
Speaker 1: back in time. It tells a great tale. So, without
Speaker 1: further ado, let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Ian,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. It's great to speak to you today.
Speaker 1: So the book is Diceman, The Origin Story of Games Workshop,
Speaker 1: written with Steve Jackson, and I think at this point,
Speaker 1: A great number of our listeners out there are certainly
Speaker 1: well acquainted with the name Games Workshop. Even if you
Speaker 1: didn't grow up with the games and the miniatures like
Speaker 1: like I did, and like many many others did, you're
Speaker 1: still gonna probably be aware of all the novels, the
Speaker 1: video games, the animated series, and so much more. It's
Speaker 1: big business. But I thought you might take us back
Speaker 1: and just in brief remind us what Games Workshop was
Speaker 1: back in the day when you and Steve Jackson co
Speaker 1: founded it. Well, Steve and I were old school friends
Speaker 1: and we met up in London in the seventhies, and
Speaker 1: our passion was playing board games, mainly those that came
Speaker 1: from the US, games like Diplomacy and Avalon Hill Games.
Speaker 1: And we thought wouldn't be great we could somehow turn
Speaker 1: off passion of playing games into some sort of fledgling business.
Speaker 1: So we decided to publish a small fanzine called Al
Speaker 1: and Weasel, and we sent one copy to everybody We're
Speaker 1: neewing games, And although we hadn't sent it to him directly,
Speaker 1: one found its way to the desk of Gary Gygax
Speaker 1: in late Geneva, Wisconsin, and Gary wrote to us and
Speaker 1: said I love your little fanzine. Here's this game I've
Speaker 1: just published and designed. What do you think? And that
Speaker 1: game was Dungeons and Dragons, And whilst it didn't look
Speaker 1: much pretty playing box with a very ordinary illustration on
Speaker 1: the cover, it opened up your imagination like no game
Speaker 1: had ever done before, and I don't think any game
Speaker 1: ever will again, in that it allowed a new form
Speaker 1: of interactive entertainment, role playing people playing as heroes and wizards,
Speaker 1: exploring the labyrinths designed by games Master and through theater
Speaker 1: on the fly, conversing into in craziness and edible narrative
Speaker 1: story between the players as they forged their way through
Speaker 1: the dungeons, killing monsters and finding finding treasure. So we
Speaker 1: ordered six copies of Dandy because that's all the money
Speaker 1: we actually had in our lives. And on the back
Speaker 1: of that order, Gary gave was the three year exclusive
Speaker 1: distribution agreement for the whole of Europe. So we're effectively
Speaker 1: all playing is role playing people about a role playing game.
Speaker 1: It was very amateursh but that's that's how things started
Speaker 1: in the seventies. Yeah, it was fascinating to read your
Speaker 1: take on the gaming world prior to the creation of
Speaker 1: Games Workshop, and prior to the introduction and creation about
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons, just how niche was gaming beyond family
Speaker 1: staples like Monopoly. During the nineteen sixties, for example, when
Speaker 1: in the UK there was one company dominated that was
Speaker 1: Waddington's and they published Monopoly included which is Clue in
Speaker 1: the US, Buccaneer and Formula one. And these games were
Speaker 1: enjoyable enough, but they were never satisfied gamers like Stephen myself,
Speaker 1: we wanted something more, where more there's more strategy than luck,
Speaker 1: and where you could do negotiations and and have a
Speaker 1: kind of a metal level of enjoyment by all the
Speaker 1: the bargaining and reneging on deals that could happen. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Diplomas is perfect for that kind of play where you
Speaker 1: can backstand people at will in order to dominate the world.
Speaker 1: So those are the games we looked looked out for,
Speaker 1: but d indeed really changed our minds of the type
Speaker 1: of game we want to play. We're sudden immersed in
Speaker 1: this incredible fancy world and a kind of tolknesque world
Speaker 1: of monster magic, going on these fantastic journey as the
Speaker 1: mind through through conversation, and it was that theater of
Speaker 1: the fly that I just mentioned that became a place
Speaker 1: where we wanted to visit all the time. Are you
Speaker 1: saying that it also Dungeons and Dragons sort of opened
Speaker 1: up the space for fantasy itself to be part of gaming,
Speaker 1: because you describe a lot of the gaming prior to
Speaker 1: that is very like historical military based, right. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: miniatures companies in the UK in particular, we're all based
Speaker 1: on Napoleonics, Ancients and some World War two, But there
Speaker 1: was no fancy element as such, even though fancy was
Speaker 1: pretty well established in UK mythology from Georgia the Dragon
Speaker 1: or Arthurian Knights, and of course the books from Tolkien
Speaker 1: and others. So I guess there was no surprise that
Speaker 1: fancy gaming would ultimately come along as a as a
Speaker 1: viable genre to to enjoy play. Yeah, you described it. Even.
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons kind of arises out of chain Mail,
Speaker 1: this military battle game that Gary guy GaX had co created, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he had this fancy supplement and when he played
Speaker 1: Dave Arlison's Blackmore, there was that fusion of of the
Speaker 1: two coming together to create you know, this this malester
Speaker 1: in gaming history that is Dungeon Dragons, but it was
Speaker 1: largely down I think too, Gary's m making it happen
Speaker 1: that it was as successful as it was. Clearly Dave
Speaker 1: Anson kind of probably conceived the original role playing concepts
Speaker 1: in a fantasy world as a result of its previous
Speaker 1: gaming experiences, but it's it's Gary who had made it happen.
Speaker 1: He took what was largely in Dave Ansen's head and
Speaker 1: turned into fifty page rule book and then began the
Speaker 1: commercialization of that. So he was the driving force behind it.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier, you know, you had like the
Speaker 1: family games and then you mentioned like the Avalon Hill
Speaker 1: games that were coming in UM now was there was
Speaker 1: there just kind of like a big gap in complexity
Speaker 1: between so that the Avalone Hill games and the family games,
Speaker 1: was there not much in between. There wasn't really as
Speaker 1: kind of full on hobby game as hex Grid, long
Speaker 1: and sometimes difficult to understand rules, which were the war
Speaker 1: games and particularly SPI World War Games and something most
Speaker 1: of the Avalon Hill games, and then there was kind
Speaker 1: of on the other side of the fence that's almost
Speaker 1: too easy to play. So we wanted somewhere thing in
Speaker 1: the middle. And whilst that was something that we sold
Speaker 1: through playing Dungeon Dragons. We also, as Games Workshops, started
Speaker 1: publishing our own board games to fill that what we
Speaker 1: thought was a viable gap for kind of mid mid
Speaker 1: core gaming experiences. Games like Talisman, Judge, Dread, Battle Cars,
Speaker 1: Apocalypse and others that we published under Workshops brand, as
Speaker 1: well as publishing Dungeon Dragons. Yeah, I remember as a
Speaker 1: as a child before I became exposed to too many
Speaker 1: of these other games. Before being exposed to Dungeons and
Speaker 1: Dragons and Games Workshop games, we had family games in
Speaker 1: the household. My father had some of those sp I games, uh,
Speaker 1: and I remember wanting to understanding and play them, but
Speaker 1: as a child that was completely overwhelmed by everything I
Speaker 1: found in the box. Well, not only were the rule
Speaker 1: books lengthy and that you need to be kind of
Speaker 1: a Philadelphia Lloyd to understand them, just setting up the
Speaker 1: counters would take ours as well and not left any
Speaker 1: time for actually playing. I mean, some games like nineteen
Speaker 1: would last for for days if you feel out it too,
Speaker 1: so it was almost like work rath in play. Sometimes
Speaker 1: now they on the subject of miniatures and miniature war games.
Speaker 1: Until very recently, I really didn't know how much how
Speaker 1: far back it went. Um, I think I saw and
Speaker 1: this in tremendously all. But I saw some wonderful footage
Speaker 1: of the late actor Peter Cushing painting miniature soldiers and
Speaker 1: plotting out battles with historical based Napoleonic figures. Is this
Speaker 1: this is pretty much what it consisted of. Prior to
Speaker 1: your work, well over a hundred years ago, there was
Speaker 1: lead miniatures put out there, a kind of fifty four
Speaker 1: millimeter scale on the twenty five millimeters that we did
Speaker 1: through typical war game and fancy gaming miniatures of our time,
Speaker 1: But there were many historical figures that people collected and
Speaker 1: sometimes four battles. I mean, if you go back to
Speaker 1: Edwardian times, there was there were many companies actually put
Speaker 1: producing lead figures which were painted and so I think
Speaker 1: toy soldiers, there's nothing new, It's just that toy soldiers
Speaker 1: that we made at Citadel Miniatures, where n fantasy figure
Speaker 1: as well as historical wargame figures. Can you describe a
Speaker 1: little bit how suitable miniatures came together as part of
Speaker 1: our auxiliary to games workshop. Yes, well, we've been running
Speaker 1: workshops since nineteen seventy five. We decided to up our
Speaker 1: game in terms of publishing, so we dropped out and
Speaker 1: weasel in our little fancy and started publishing White Dwarf Magazine,
Speaker 1: and we started running conventions Games Day. It's one of
Speaker 1: those conventions as that Brian Ansell, who was running a
Speaker 1: company called as Dark as Garments of the time, we
Speaker 1: met him briefly there. We're also ordering quite a lot
Speaker 1: of giant rats and other figures from him that could
Speaker 1: be used in indeed games, and he requested a meeting
Speaker 1: with us, and so we met him in sight and
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I can be the answer to
Speaker 1: your miniatures problem, because at that time we were importing
Speaker 1: most of our games from from the US from Ralph
Speaker 1: Pathur in particular and archived miniatures, and they were obviously
Speaker 1: very expensive too to import, with not just a shipping
Speaker 1: cost but the import duty costs and then the delivery
Speaker 1: times were also in most of the logistics of the
Speaker 1: supply chain was was a bit challenging. So we agreed
Speaker 1: that we've set up a company with him and we
Speaker 1: call that company seay Man. It was based where he
Speaker 1: lived in the Midlands, around around Nottingham, and that's how
Speaker 1: Cecil came to be, and it became, you know, just
Speaker 1: an amazing additive to the to the game's workshop remail,
Speaker 1: which has had historically just been publishing board games and
Speaker 1: opening retail shops. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And
Speaker 1: if things keep keep moving with the miniatures, like, how
Speaker 1: does it how does it grow in terms of the
Speaker 1: miniature's role in the games, Because I mean nowadays with
Speaker 1: Games Workshop, at least for me, like I think about
Speaker 1: the games and the minis and it's like it's very
Speaker 1: hard to to differentiate between the two. But it sounds
Speaker 1: like from from what I had in the book, like
Speaker 1: at times that is kind of a struggle to decide,
Speaker 1: even in the early days of games Workshops, like what
Speaker 1: is what is the area that should be receiving the
Speaker 1: most attention the miniatures are the games? Like well, what
Speaker 1: is the the interaction between these two areas well? Steve
Speaker 1: and I were running the game's division effectively, so we
Speaker 1: wanted to put more resource into publishing board games, publishing
Speaker 1: more role playing games, opening more shops, publishing um more
Speaker 1: magazines as well as White Dwarf. It's all around the
Speaker 1: kind of print media and retail division. Whereas Brian answer
Speaker 1: was running sitting on miniatures, wanted more resources allocated to
Speaker 1: more miniatures, and he had a great point because that
Speaker 1: the gross margin in miniatures was quite high, and he
Speaker 1: also argued that there should be a set of rules
Speaker 1: that enabled more minutes to be sold, because if you're
Speaker 1: making miniatures for role playing game, you tend to sell
Speaker 1: them in single units because you only need one behold
Speaker 1: or one skeleton, or one cleric or one fighter. So
Speaker 1: really that's how the Warhammer concept came about, as a
Speaker 1: way to sell units of miniatures rather than single figures.
Speaker 1: At the same time in nineties, at the end of
Speaker 1: nine and we lost the exclusivity with Dungeon Dragons. Now,
Speaker 1: Gary gy as I said earlier, had given us a
Speaker 1: three year exclusive distribution agreement which ended at the end
Speaker 1: of seventy eight. In the beginning, and then in seventy
Speaker 1: came to Businesses and said that he wanted to merge
Speaker 1: his company Tiarsar with our company Games Workshop, and we
Speaker 1: would be given like kind a third of the combined entity.
Speaker 1: But Steve and I were kind of independently minded young
Speaker 1: Brits at the time, and we didn't want to have
Speaker 1: a split life between London and Wisconsin, so we said
Speaker 1: no to that merger opportunity. So whilst remind the biggest
Speaker 1: distributors of Dungeon, Dragons and Tears, our hobbies games were
Speaker 1: no longer the exclusive distributor, and it was only a
Speaker 1: matter of time before they had set up in the
Speaker 1: UK and have their own distribution points, and we might
Speaker 1: obviously be that would obviously impact on our on our selves.
Speaker 1: So we know, we knew we needed something that was
Speaker 1: going to be our own intellectual property that we determine
Speaker 1: our own destiny in our future. But it had to
Speaker 1: something that could resonate with a wide audience and be
Speaker 1: able to scale so well as we had some considerable
Speaker 1: success with with some of the ball games that we published,
Speaker 1: another role playing games that we published on the license
Speaker 1: like Traveler and Room Quest, and imported games like Call
Speaker 1: of a Cathola, it wasn't really until Warhammer came about
Speaker 1: that we were suddenly in a much better place in
Speaker 1: terms of being able to be independent. And it was
Speaker 1: an original idea from Brian Answer to publish a kind
Speaker 1: of free set of rules as a as a as
Speaker 1: a giveaway with the mail orders. But then he brought
Speaker 1: in Rick Priestley, and Rick Richard halliwell to kind of
Speaker 1: beef up the rules, and when they were played, who decided, well,
Speaker 1: rather than just given them away, let's make this into
Speaker 1: a product itself. And that's how Warhammer, the original fancy
Speaker 1: battle game came out in three and even though it
Speaker 1: was loaded with errors and mistakes and wasn't particularly complete,
Speaker 1: it sold out very quickly. Some three thousand copies went
Speaker 1: pretty much immediately. So that's how the second edition of
Speaker 1: Warhammer came about. And then they realize that, you know what,
Speaker 1: if this is our own i P. We should focus
Speaker 1: more on it rather than other people's products. And therefore
Speaker 1: Warhammer was really was that became front and central focus
Speaker 1: for the whole of the company. So all the rules
Speaker 1: enabled more minute to be sold. White Dwarf then focused
Speaker 1: on on Warhammer. That retail stores were something less of
Speaker 1: importive products and more of our own products, and that's
Speaker 1: that slow move over happened over quite a few months
Speaker 1: before it became a totally Warhammer focused company. Now in
Speaker 1: the book you described the first space marine minis that
Speaker 1: come about, and there there are some lovely photographs as well.
Speaker 1: I have to stress for anyone out there who's interested
Speaker 1: in the book. It um, there's so many wonderful photographs
Speaker 1: and scans as well of some of these these early
Speaker 1: magazine publications and you know our early editions of White Dwarf.
Speaker 1: It's it's facts like a scrap book. Well, I like
Speaker 1: to think as a as a personal memoir, where as
Speaker 1: much historical photographic and image reference as possible, and it's say,
Speaker 1: it's more of a a biography, personal biography warts and all,
Speaker 1: and full of anecdotes are on a business, a book
Speaker 1: about business. And that's why there are over four hundred
Speaker 1: photographs in the book, some which of which I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of which have never been seen before. Rummaging
Speaker 1: around in the roof and in the in the loft
Speaker 1: looking for old thirty five millimeter transparencies slides that we
Speaker 1: had to have scan and getting really excited finding looking
Speaker 1: at slide hadn't seen for something, you know, forty five years.
Speaker 1: It's just as an amazing experience in itself. And then
Speaker 1: writing more and more, and then talking to more colleagues
Speaker 1: to validate what we said, and remembering all this weird
Speaker 1: stuff to happen, like having to live in a van
Speaker 1: for three months because he couldn't get any bank finance,
Speaker 1: you're going to see the bank manager telling about Dungeon dragons.
Speaker 1: It looks like you're like, you're mad and asked you
Speaker 1: to leave. So we had to find us everything out
Speaker 1: of a cash flow and it only after into a
Speaker 1: very small office at the back of the States Agent
Speaker 1: and had to live in Staates Van throughout three months
Speaker 1: of an awful winter. But you know, I think I
Speaker 1: said in the books you could call it living the dream,
Speaker 1: but clearly it wasn't. But when you're driven by passion
Speaker 1: around your own hobby, it doesn't seem like hardship. The
Speaker 1: van in question is that this is Van Morrison, correct,
Speaker 1: that was the nickname, the one only Van Morrison. Yes,
Speaker 1: big blue van that was a home for three months. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The the personal stories are are so was there such
Speaker 1: a wonderful aspect of the book again, all these photographs,
Speaker 1: all the real people involved in the in the in
Speaker 1: these games and in games workshop. But it really beefs
Speaker 1: up the personal story. And then you have these little
Speaker 1: so many of these anecdotes and sort of little adventures
Speaker 1: that pop up along the way. Yeah, like going going
Speaker 1: to the States to see let's just see carry in
Speaker 1: in theory attend gen Con nine but taking back two
Speaker 1: months to get there and delivering cars from New York
Speaker 1: to to l A. There another one from l A
Speaker 1: to San Francisco, and then one from Chicago, and all
Speaker 1: the adventures we had along the route. It was a year.
Speaker 1: Of the amount of it was the Olympics, sure, and
Speaker 1: McDonald's running this promotion where if the US want to
Speaker 1: a gold medal, you want to I think it was
Speaker 1: a big mac. And then if they want to that
Speaker 1: Selver medal, you get a large fries and a bronze
Speaker 1: you get a coke. And so we were being kind
Speaker 1: of pretty chat if by wanting the US to win
Speaker 1: all these all these all these medals, because if you
Speaker 1: had a ticket that matched the winning winning sport, you'd
Speaker 1: win one of the items. So that kept us alive
Speaker 1: on the road. And this is this off the trip
Speaker 1: where you went through Vegas. Yes, that's right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I I that part was very interesting as well, in
Speaker 1: part because you're describing like taking a jant through the
Speaker 1: casinos there and in a way kind of witnessing gaming
Speaker 1: or at its worst, you know, at it's kind of
Speaker 1: like crushing worst whilst you and your cohorts are kind
Speaker 1: of on this like mission of passion, and you know,
Speaker 1: and you've been describing like just being so inspired by
Speaker 1: these new ideas and in these new game possibilities they're emerging. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was it was. I mean I think that Vegas
Speaker 1: and did you go there for a few days? But
Speaker 1: to see people listen that money, one particular gentleman from Japan,
Speaker 1: it was it sets these hundred dollar bills disappears so
Speaker 1: quickly that we didn't dare gamble a panic because we
Speaker 1: just couldn't afford it. So how long did this? Um
Speaker 1: did this process of going back and and sort of
Speaker 1: piecing together the story of the early games workshops days,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to find these various photographs, Like how
Speaker 1: long did it take to put all this together? Well?
Speaker 1: I thought it was going to take about six months,
Speaker 1: and I think it took really four years because Um,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the process of of doing it, I was,
Speaker 1: it was also it was it's doing it in times
Speaker 1: where I was free, because even though I'm nearly simply
Speaker 1: three years old, I'm still very much working full time
Speaker 1: on on various projects, still writing finaly fantasy gamebooks and
Speaker 1: gamebooks in which you are the hero of the branching
Speaker 1: narrative with the game system attached. It is the Forces
Speaker 1: of fortive anniversary this year, and I wrote a new
Speaker 1: book to celebrate that, Shadows of the Giants, which was
Speaker 1: great to go back to to my roots in that respect.
Speaker 1: And I'm also I also have my own school in
Speaker 1: Bournemouth which is all around digital creativity and good arts
Speaker 1: education using game based learning and very much influenced by
Speaker 1: Dungeon Dragons that the power of players it were, and
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, and also a general partner in Hero Capital,
Speaker 1: which is a venture capital fund investing in video games,
Speaker 1: studios and technologies. So it's a question of finding the time.
Speaker 1: And then the more I spent researching and writing and
Speaker 1: the more I wanted it to be as good it
Speaker 1: could possibly be, and so I went the extra mile,
Speaker 1: so to speak to to try and tell the full
Speaker 1: story and make sure what I said was validated by
Speaker 1: cross referencing in magazines and talking to the people who
Speaker 1: were who are around at the time. Sadly some of
Speaker 1: those people have since passed away, but nevertheless I think
Speaker 1: it's a it's a pretty accurate recounts of those origin
Speaker 1: years of origin story is of seventy five to eighty five. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I have to stress to everyone out there you
Speaker 1: don't have to be like a game designer or just
Speaker 1: uh to be like a really hardcore gaming fan to
Speaker 1: find the story engaging. You know, it's it's it's ultimately
Speaker 1: the story of people in their passions. Yes, I say it's.
Speaker 1: It's I'd like to say, almost like a coffee table
Speaker 1: book where you can just casually look at the images
Speaker 1: of the time, the fashions and the things we did
Speaker 1: in the seventies and early eighties. But also, if you're curious,
Speaker 1: you know, read some of the the story behind what
Speaker 1: became an incredible company now were some three billion dollars
Speaker 1: on the on the London Stock Exchange, and also perhaps
Speaker 1: be amused by some of the anecdotes told in the story. Now,
Speaker 1: you mentioned the Fighting Fantasy game book series, and I
Speaker 1: definitely wanted to ask you about about that. Um. I
Speaker 1: actually I picked up I picked up The Warlock of
Speaker 1: fire Top Mountain prior to this interview, and I was
Speaker 1: playing through it with my son a bed, and tremendous
Speaker 1: fun encountering all you know, encountering crocodiles and Biranhas and
Speaker 1: goblins and so forth, and um, very very captivating for
Speaker 1: for both of us, and I think he was getting
Speaker 1: he was almost getting a little too into it, concerned
Speaker 1: about the danger we were encountering. He's he's ten. But
Speaker 1: this this idea of the game book, Um, like, how
Speaker 1: does it? Like? What is the what is the world
Speaker 1: of game books prior to your work with game books?
Speaker 1: And then like, how like what is the process like
Speaker 1: of of laying these out and and creating one that works?
Speaker 1: Because I definitely remember as a younger person picking up
Speaker 1: a game book by someone else there was another company
Speaker 1: with a competitor, I imagine, and it was heartbreaking when
Speaker 1: it broke, like it reached a point where I could
Speaker 1: not go any further because there was some sort of
Speaker 1: number error in the publication. Right well, I believe Fighting
Speaker 1: Fantasy was the very first game book series which had
Speaker 1: a branching narrative and the game system attached to it.
Speaker 1: Around about the same time, although we hadn't seen them
Speaker 1: on this side of the Atlantic, that choose your and
Speaker 1: adventure books were out, but they were more choose your
Speaker 1: own paragraph. There was no game element to making. So
Speaker 1: what we tried to do and Finding Fantasy was distill
Speaker 1: a role playing experience into a single player, solo solo
Speaker 1: adventure whereby the book replace the games master and you,
Speaker 1: the reader, moved from a passive reading experience into an
Speaker 1: interactive experienced by baking choices. So it's that empowerment because
Speaker 1: you are the hero at the end. There are four
Speaker 1: hundred paragraphs. At the end of each one, you have
Speaker 1: to make a choice simplistically, do you turn left or right?
Speaker 1: And then there are puzzles to solve, there are monsters
Speaker 1: to fight. That's when you use the dice. The three
Speaker 1: basic characteristics skidamina, and luck, which are modified through through
Speaker 1: your progress through the through the adventure. Your skill might
Speaker 1: go up if you find a magic potion, or your
Speaker 1: stamina might go down if you lose a fight in
Speaker 1: combat with a monster. And then you test your luck
Speaker 1: to escape or try and get extra extra benefits by
Speaker 1: rolling dice against your your luck role. So we wanted
Speaker 1: to have a very thrilling experience with people that given
Speaker 1: the agency through choices empowering and they were hugely successful.
Speaker 1: They went on to sell over twenty million copies globally
Speaker 1: and they got a whole generation of children reading in
Speaker 1: the eighties. Because of that, the agency that empowerment was
Speaker 1: very compelling, and they spread by word of mouth. Clearly
Speaker 1: there was no Internet at the time, but it was
Speaker 1: the word of mouth, which is the best kind of
Speaker 1: reality you could possibly hope for in the playgrounds of
Speaker 1: the schools, initially in the UK, and then it spread
Speaker 1: into Europe and ultimately globally and so well if I
Speaker 1: Top Mountain as you read, was the first one, and
Speaker 1: we wanted to use our own artists that we'd use
Speaker 1: the game's workshop because we found those really stimulated children's
Speaker 1: imagination because they were realistically detailed where it's probably were
Speaker 1: a bit nervous about it that the imprint because as
Speaker 1: they were children's books, they wanted to around nice safe
Speaker 1: covers with a little toadstool, little gnomes sitting on the top,
Speaker 1: all of them, butterflies in the air. Wise, we wanted
Speaker 1: to the kids to be kind of go, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 1: what does that horrendous creature coming at me? He's going
Speaker 1: to buy my head off. So we wanted that kind
Speaker 1: of thrill of excitement and then the joy of them,
Speaker 1: you know, succeeding by getting through the through the through
Speaker 1: the books so finding a key one room allows to
Speaker 1: open a chest or door further on in the adventure,
Speaker 1: but right to them, as you say, was an absolute nightmare.
Speaker 1: It was like writing multiple storylines at once and having
Speaker 1: to bring um they read is back to certain common points,
Speaker 1: no points where they had to have essential information to
Speaker 1: allow them to progress. You had to balance the economy
Speaker 1: so there wasn't too much gold or too little gold.
Speaker 1: You had to make sure it wasn't too difficult or
Speaker 1: too easy, so there was a fun experience but with
Speaker 1: enough enough challenge but not impossible, and make sure there
Speaker 1: were no colder sects and all the choice you make.
Speaker 1: So we designed them on a flow chart really is
Speaker 1: like a compluter computer flow chart, making sure every every
Speaker 1: split in the in the in the adventure was notated
Speaker 1: and what could be found or not found at each
Speaker 1: decision point. But the important thing is that every decision
Speaker 1: had to have a consequence, otherwise why have it branching anyway.
Speaker 1: So it was really good fun and of course my
Speaker 1: my joy was to lure people to their doom, promised
Speaker 1: them wealth and glory with with nice rose petals along
Speaker 1: the pathway, only for them to fall on poison spikes
Speaker 1: down a pit, which was always always a good fun
Speaker 1: for me, but of course most people cheated. It was
Speaker 1: had their multiple pages in the in the book, and
Speaker 1: you could see them on public transport on buses and
Speaker 1: trains where their fingers about five places in the books.
Speaker 1: They always used to make me laugh when I see that.
Speaker 1: I used to see that in those days. I love
Speaker 1: the the innovation of it. You mentioned the dice that
Speaker 1: are used a couple of d six, but I love
Speaker 1: the innovation of the dice at various dice combinations at
Speaker 1: the bottom of each page that you can flip through.
Speaker 1: You don't have physical dice and do a dice roll.
Speaker 1: That's that was a more recent attation innovation in in
Speaker 1: the original books, which were much more highly detailed in
Speaker 1: their illustrations and perhaps more threatening. It didn't have the
Speaker 1: dice roles, so yeah, I guess that's it would have
Speaker 1: made it easier for playing it on the train. I guess,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Than now you mentioned computer games.
Speaker 1: The games like The Worldlock of Firetop Mountain and these
Speaker 1: other game books you worked on. These have eventually found
Speaker 1: their way into the world of computer gaming, right they did.
Speaker 1: I mean, Diceman doesn't really cover too much about video
Speaker 1: games except for what we did at the time in
Speaker 1: in the early eight selling activision games and and very
Speaker 1: early PCs and console gaming just when the there was
Speaker 1: an early crash in the early eighties which was had
Speaker 1: quite a negative impact on games workshop and the amount
Speaker 1: of stock we had a retail. But more recently five
Speaker 1: defensive game books have been available digital digitally from from
Speaker 1: from tim Man Games in Australia designed them as apps
Speaker 1: and Nomad Games have created on games on on Switch
Speaker 1: and also on PC. It's more of a top down
Speaker 1: kind of not a collectible car game, but being rewarded
Speaker 1: with cars when you progress through the adventure and ultimately
Speaker 1: get through. So the Death Chap, Dungeon City of these,
Speaker 1: Forest of Doing of all be imported to to digital format.
Speaker 1: So there's something for everyone these days, books all video games.
Speaker 1: One thing I was wondering about as well is that
Speaker 1: you know, obviously we have this, you know, the rich
Speaker 1: world of miniature based games and dungeons and Enderhagen's various
Speaker 1: role playing games and these these game books as well,
Speaker 1: and in the background, more in the forefront of being
Speaker 1: how you look at it, I guess we have the
Speaker 1: emergence of even more video game opportunities, and today we
Speaker 1: have some pretty amazing video games out there with the
Speaker 1: graphics are better than ever before. The game systems involved
Speaker 1: are so complicated. But we as gamers, gamers of all ages,
Speaker 1: we keep coming back to to like we're coming back
Speaker 1: to these game books. We're coming back to physical tabletop
Speaker 1: games and to games that take place bromily in our imagination.
Speaker 1: What does that mean you think? I think one is
Speaker 1: at the expense of the other. I think it's nice
Speaker 1: to have. Do you know I play both board games.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the room here you might see with
Speaker 1: over fifteen board games in the room, but I also have,
Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of video games. I think it's it
Speaker 1: depends how you feel on the day. And you can
Speaker 1: also see that it's that vinyl is made a revival.
Speaker 1: People don't just want to stream music to whatever digital
Speaker 1: devices they have. They like to have the physicality. Physical
Speaker 1: books have made a revival because people like to surround
Speaker 1: themselves with things that give them pleasure. The physical as
Speaker 1: well as the distal, I think helps satisfy all parts
Speaker 1: of the human mind, rather than one at the expense
Speaker 1: of the other. So I enjoy both, and depends of
Speaker 1: who I'm going to play with or what I'm going
Speaker 1: to read and in what formats I happened to be
Speaker 1: using at the time. If I'm traveling, obviously it's gonna
Speaker 1: be digital. If I'm at home, probably physical. Now I'm
Speaker 1: gonna connect to something I was gonna gonna ask earlier,
Speaker 1: and I we end up going in a different direction.
Speaker 1: But you describe the first space Marine minis in the book,
Speaker 1: and there's some lovely photographs of the little minis as well. Um,
Speaker 1: the space Marines of warham Er have certainly become very iconic.
Speaker 1: They're very recognizable, part of the of the of the
Speaker 1: brand in clearly big business as well. How did this
Speaker 1: concept originally come together? Well, they've changed an awful lot
Speaker 1: of the time space Marines of of the eighties to
Speaker 1: the space Marines of today. They just got bigger, boulder
Speaker 1: and and and stronger and have got an incredible esthetic
Speaker 1: around them now of course, and everyone everyone loves them.
Speaker 1: They came from very hubble beginnings. I think it was
Speaker 1: Bob Naysmith came up with the original space marine look
Speaker 1: and feel in his iconic first miniature. So I call
Speaker 1: things small like acorns, they become oaks over time, have
Speaker 1: given the rights environment for growth through their popularity. So
Speaker 1: it's great to see them so amazingly successful today. And
Speaker 1: this the power of Warhammer fort ks extraordinary. I think
Speaker 1: there's some talking to about video games. I think some
Speaker 1: fifty licenses now and some extraordinary games being put out there.
Speaker 1: So the world of Warhammer is rich and famous and
Speaker 1: widespread now. Obviously there's a there's there's a lot to
Speaker 1: say about about game design and approaches to game design
Speaker 1: and in the business of game design and the business
Speaker 1: of gaming. Um, do you have any quick advice to
Speaker 1: throw out there to to anyone who is a budding
Speaker 1: game designer or things they want to get into the
Speaker 1: industry of game design? Well, I guess it depends on
Speaker 1: what part of the industry you want to get into.
Speaker 1: Is it tabletop war gaming? Is it board games? Is
Speaker 1: a video games? That the the the thing that unites
Speaker 1: the more. When people ask me what's the most the
Speaker 1: three most important things about a game, I always say gameplay, gameplay,
Speaker 1: game playing video games. Whilst technology and graphics are essential,
Speaker 1: they play a supporting role. It always comes down to
Speaker 1: how you enjoying the game. To play rather than what
Speaker 1: things look like. But in the board game, of course,
Speaker 1: great production values has really enhanced that experience now where
Speaker 1: all the bits and the graphics are amazing now. But
Speaker 1: the gameplay is what makes us want to start playing
Speaker 1: in the first place. So games should be quick to
Speaker 1: learn but difficult to master, so you can get various
Speaker 1: degrees of expert abilities in these games. The better play
Speaker 1: are you should be more successful in winning, and of
Speaker 1: course you need an exciting theme that resonates with everybody.
Speaker 1: I mean in board games, and it's no surprise that
Speaker 1: Ticket to Ride has been successful. You couldn't learn it
Speaker 1: very quickly, but it takes a long time to become
Speaker 1: a master of it. Really, all the strategies it looks
Speaker 1: great trains resonate with everybody. The pieces are lovely because
Speaker 1: you pick up these little train carriers and plot them
Speaker 1: around the board. So it's kind of got all the
Speaker 1: component parts of a classically successful game. And similarly with
Speaker 1: video games, there the appeal has to be in the
Speaker 1: gameplay and then the metal level. Of course, that's common
Speaker 1: denominating about all these is the enjoyment caused by people
Speaker 1: playing together. So it's that joy by anything that has
Speaker 1: a shared experience is always enhanced and there's always an
Speaker 1: enhanced experience, whether it's looking at a sunset or having
Speaker 1: dinner or going to the cinema with somebody. And obviously
Speaker 1: with games, you're playing with somebody, that that that's that's
Speaker 1: um that's that fun that's created by just the conversation.
Speaker 1: Whether it's the shared experience of enjoyment or doing a
Speaker 1: deal and reneging on it, that's as that extra level
Speaker 1: of enjoyment. So there's a there are many things to
Speaker 1: consider when designing a game, but there's kind of there's
Speaker 1: there's four basic principles. I think he's absolutely vital to
Speaker 1: include you mentioned earlier all the all the activities you're
Speaker 1: involved in. Uh and of course you're a legend in
Speaker 1: the game design industry. Um are do you still gather
Speaker 1: with friends and just play games purely recreationally? We play
Speaker 1: once a week the same group of people since the
Speaker 1: eight it so still Steve Jackson plus Peter moll anew
Speaker 1: from the video games industry, one of the UK's premier designers.
Speaker 1: I mean he created Populist originally and Fable and Black
Speaker 1: and White another amazing video games titles and it's kind
Speaker 1: of a tongue in cheek gentleman's club in that we
Speaker 1: we play games and keep a record all the games
Speaker 1: played every every every week and score points, and I
Speaker 1: send out a newsletter, the Game's Night Newsletter, largely just
Speaker 1: to criticize that the other people playing. Allows me as
Speaker 1: secretary too, to treat it as my own kind of
Speaker 1: give them verbal abuse the whole time. At the end
Speaker 1: of the year, we have a cup, the cup that's
Speaker 1: presented to the champion. So it's it's, it's, it's it's
Speaker 1: We don't take ourselves seriously about doing it, but it
Speaker 1: has another dimension to to to play in the games
Speaker 1: that we do. So you've been doing it for same
Speaker 1: since the eights. I've published six twenty seven issues of
Speaker 1: the Game that newsletter to a circulation to six people.
Speaker 1: Still coming back to the book for a second again.
Speaker 1: The book is is Diceman the origin story of Games Workshop.
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about how it came together,
Speaker 1: but but why did it come together? Why? Now? Well,
Speaker 1: I started writing it about four years ago largely because
Speaker 1: Games Workshop was doing so well as a company. Everyone
Speaker 1: was saying, what is this games company? On the London
Speaker 1: stock exchange that's now worth three or four billion dollars.
Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. How can it be worth more than some
Speaker 1: of the major corporations I've known all my life. Where
Speaker 1: did it come from? And when I meet people, I said,
Speaker 1: what do you what was your first how do you
Speaker 1: get into into games? Or so I started coming called
Speaker 1: games workshop and they said, well, how did that come about?
Speaker 1: So I thought, you know what it really is about
Speaker 1: time this has put down in writing. There's a kind
Speaker 1: of a personal memoir and and something that could be
Speaker 1: there for posterity long after I've gone and Steve has gone.
Speaker 1: It would be there for for people about being remotely
Speaker 1: interested in what has been an incredible journey. The kind
Speaker 1: of birth of the game is in the UK and globally.
Speaker 1: Really it was such an amateur thing in the in
Speaker 1: the in the seventies. But to see that down on
Speaker 1: paper and it won't be lost forever, I thought it
Speaker 1: was important thing to do. So now we are life
Speaker 1: is a game for us. Well, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's a great read. I highly recommend it to our listeners.
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: And I also want to just thank you for you know,
Speaker 1: helping to bring about all these great creations that that
Speaker 1: means so much to us. I mean the Warhammer, Warhammer
Speaker 1: forty thousand, uh like, these are these are things that
Speaker 1: still bring me a lot of joy today as as
Speaker 1: an adult, and certainly gave me a lot of joy
Speaker 1: when I first discovered them as a kid. Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's very kind of you said that. So I mean,
Speaker 1: for me as a game's play out of being able
Speaker 1: to working games for forty seven years been absolute privilege
Speaker 1: and a joy. So thank you, Thank you. Thanks much
Speaker 1: more to sir Ian for taking time out of his
Speaker 1: day to chat with me here. It was a real pleasure. Again.
Speaker 1: The book is Dice Men, The Origin Story of Games Workshop,
Speaker 1: written with Steve Jackson. You can find that wherever you
Speaker 1: get your books. I highly recommend checking it out and
Speaker 1: picking it up. Just a reminder that core episodes of
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind published on Tuesdays and Thursdays,
Speaker 1: with a listener mail episode on Monday's, a short form
Speaker 1: monster fact or Artifact episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays,
Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns and just talk about
Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema, If you have
Speaker 1: any questions that you would like to ask, any information
Speaker 1: you'd like to share to your particular memories of any
Speaker 1: of these games, workshop creations that you would like to
Speaker 1: to bring up, or if you have experience with the
Speaker 1: Fighting Fantasy game book series. I know these were near
Speaker 1: and dear to a lot of folks growing up right
Speaker 1: in We would love to hear from you and potentially
Speaker 1: read those messages on a future episode of Listener Mail.
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to man X and j J for producing, editing,
Speaker 1: and splicing everything together here on Stuff to Blow Your
Speaker 1: Mind and Yeah, if you want to reach out to us,
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact and Stuff to Blow
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.