1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and today i'd like to 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: present an interview I recorded earlier this month with sir 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: Ian Livingstone, co founder of Games Workshop and co author 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: of the Fighting Fantasy game book series. Now, the creations 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: to come out of Games Workshop especially have meant so 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: much to me over the years, and it was a 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: real honor to chat with him about the early days 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: of Games Workshop, about old school gaming in general, the 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: meaning of games, and of course his new book dice Men, 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: The Origin Story of Games Workshop, which he wrote with 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: Steve Jackson. The book is out now digitally. In the 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: physical version is either out or available for preorder, depending 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: on what region you're in. Either way you get it, 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: pick it up. It's a great read. It has so 17 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: many wonderful images in it. It will really transport you 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: back in time. It tells a great tale. So, without 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: further ado, let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Ian, 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. It's great to speak to you today. 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: So the book is Diceman, The Origin Story of Games Workshop, 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: written with Steve Jackson, and I think at this point, 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: A great number of our listeners out there are certainly 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: well acquainted with the name Games Workshop. Even if you 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: didn't grow up with the games and the miniatures like 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: like I did, and like many many others did, you're 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: still gonna probably be aware of all the novels, the 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: video games, the animated series, and so much more. It's 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: big business. But I thought you might take us back 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: and just in brief remind us what Games Workshop was 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: back in the day when you and Steve Jackson co 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: founded it. Well, Steve and I were old school friends 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: and we met up in London in the seventhies, and 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: our passion was playing board games, mainly those that came 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: from the US, games like Diplomacy and Avalon Hill Games. 36 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: And we thought wouldn't be great we could somehow turn 37 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: off passion of playing games into some sort of fledgling business. 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: So we decided to publish a small fanzine called Al 39 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: and Weasel, and we sent one copy to everybody We're 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: neewing games, And although we hadn't sent it to him directly, 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: one found its way to the desk of Gary Gygax 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: in late Geneva, Wisconsin, and Gary wrote to us and 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: said I love your little fanzine. Here's this game I've 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: just published and designed. What do you think? And that 45 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: game was Dungeons and Dragons, And whilst it didn't look 46 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: much pretty playing box with a very ordinary illustration on 47 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: the cover, it opened up your imagination like no game 48 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: had ever done before, and I don't think any game 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: ever will again, in that it allowed a new form 50 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: of interactive entertainment, role playing people playing as heroes and wizards, 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: exploring the labyrinths designed by games Master and through theater 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: on the fly, conversing into in craziness and edible narrative 53 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: story between the players as they forged their way through 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: the dungeons, killing monsters and finding finding treasure. So we 55 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: ordered six copies of Dandy because that's all the money 56 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: we actually had in our lives. And on the back 57 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: of that order, Gary gave was the three year exclusive 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: distribution agreement for the whole of Europe. So we're effectively 59 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: all playing is role playing people about a role playing game. 60 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: It was very amateursh but that's that's how things started 61 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: in the seventies. Yeah, it was fascinating to read your 62 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: take on the gaming world prior to the creation of 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Games Workshop, and prior to the introduction and creation about 64 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons, just how niche was gaming beyond family 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: staples like Monopoly. During the nineteen sixties, for example, when 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: in the UK there was one company dominated that was 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: Waddington's and they published Monopoly included which is Clue in 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: the US, Buccaneer and Formula one. And these games were 69 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: enjoyable enough, but they were never satisfied gamers like Stephen myself, 70 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: we wanted something more, where more there's more strategy than luck, 71 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: and where you could do negotiations and and have a 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: kind of a metal level of enjoyment by all the 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: the bargaining and reneging on deals that could happen. Obviously, 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Diplomas is perfect for that kind of play where you 75 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: can backstand people at will in order to dominate the world. 76 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: So those are the games we looked looked out for, 77 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: but d indeed really changed our minds of the type 78 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: of game we want to play. We're sudden immersed in 79 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: this incredible fancy world and a kind of tolknesque world 80 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: of monster magic, going on these fantastic journey as the 81 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: mind through through conversation, and it was that theater of 82 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,119 Speaker 1: the fly that I just mentioned that became a place 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: where we wanted to visit all the time. Are you 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: saying that it also Dungeons and Dragons sort of opened 85 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: up the space for fantasy itself to be part of gaming, 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: because you describe a lot of the gaming prior to 87 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: that is very like historical military based, right. Yeah. The 88 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: miniatures companies in the UK in particular, we're all based 89 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: on Napoleonics, Ancients and some World War two, But there 90 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: was no fancy element as such, even though fancy was 91 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: pretty well established in UK mythology from Georgia the Dragon 92 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: or Arthurian Knights, and of course the books from Tolkien 93 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and others. So I guess there was no surprise that 94 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: fancy gaming would ultimately come along as a as a 95 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: viable genre to to enjoy play. Yeah, you described it. Even. 96 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons kind of arises out of chain Mail, 97 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: this military battle game that Gary guy GaX had co created, right, Yeah, 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: but he had this fancy supplement and when he played 99 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: Dave Arlison's Blackmore, there was that fusion of of the 100 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: two coming together to create you know, this this malester 101 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: in gaming history that is Dungeon Dragons, but it was 102 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: largely down I think too, Gary's m making it happen 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: that it was as successful as it was. Clearly Dave 104 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: Anson kind of probably conceived the original role playing concepts 105 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: in a fantasy world as a result of its previous 106 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: gaming experiences, but it's it's Gary who had made it happen. 107 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: He took what was largely in Dave Ansen's head and 108 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: turned into fifty page rule book and then began the 109 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: commercialization of that. So he was the driving force behind it. 110 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier, you know, you had like the 111 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: family games and then you mentioned like the Avalon Hill 112 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: games that were coming in UM now was there was 113 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: there just kind of like a big gap in complexity 114 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: between so that the Avalone Hill games and the family games, 115 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: was there not much in between. There wasn't really as 116 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: kind of full on hobby game as hex Grid, long 117 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: and sometimes difficult to understand rules, which were the war 118 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: games and particularly SPI World War Games and something most 119 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: of the Avalon Hill games, and then there was kind 120 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: of on the other side of the fence that's almost 121 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: too easy to play. So we wanted somewhere thing in 122 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: the middle. And whilst that was something that we sold 123 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: through playing Dungeon Dragons. We also, as Games Workshops, started 124 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: publishing our own board games to fill that what we 125 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: thought was a viable gap for kind of mid mid 126 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: core gaming experiences. Games like Talisman, Judge, Dread, Battle Cars, 127 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: Apocalypse and others that we published under Workshops brand, as 128 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: well as publishing Dungeon Dragons. Yeah, I remember as a 129 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: as a child before I became exposed to too many 130 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: of these other games. Before being exposed to Dungeons and 131 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: Dragons and Games Workshop games, we had family games in 132 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: the household. My father had some of those sp I games, uh, 133 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: and I remember wanting to understanding and play them, but 134 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: as a child that was completely overwhelmed by everything I 135 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: found in the box. Well, not only were the rule 136 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: books lengthy and that you need to be kind of 137 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: a Philadelphia Lloyd to understand them, just setting up the 138 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: counters would take ours as well and not left any 139 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: time for actually playing. I mean, some games like nineteen 140 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: would last for for days if you feel out it too, 141 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: so it was almost like work rath in play. Sometimes 142 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: now they on the subject of miniatures and miniature war games. 143 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: Until very recently, I really didn't know how much how 144 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: far back it went. Um, I think I saw and 145 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: this in tremendously all. But I saw some wonderful footage 146 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: of the late actor Peter Cushing painting miniature soldiers and 147 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: plotting out battles with historical based Napoleonic figures. Is this 148 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: this is pretty much what it consisted of. Prior to 149 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: your work, well over a hundred years ago, there was 150 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: lead miniatures put out there, a kind of fifty four 151 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: millimeter scale on the twenty five millimeters that we did 152 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: through typical war game and fancy gaming miniatures of our time, 153 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: But there were many historical figures that people collected and 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: sometimes four battles. I mean, if you go back to 155 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: Edwardian times, there was there were many companies actually put 156 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: producing lead figures which were painted and so I think 157 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: toy soldiers, there's nothing new, It's just that toy soldiers 158 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: that we made at Citadel Miniatures, where n fantasy figure 159 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: as well as historical wargame figures. Can you describe a 160 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: little bit how suitable miniatures came together as part of 161 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: our auxiliary to games workshop. Yes, well, we've been running 162 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: workshops since nineteen seventy five. We decided to up our 163 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: game in terms of publishing, so we dropped out and 164 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: weasel in our little fancy and started publishing White Dwarf Magazine, 165 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: and we started running conventions Games Day. It's one of 166 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: those conventions as that Brian Ansell, who was running a 167 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: company called as Dark as Garments of the time, we 168 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: met him briefly there. We're also ordering quite a lot 169 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: of giant rats and other figures from him that could 170 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: be used in indeed games, and he requested a meeting 171 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: with us, and so we met him in sight and 172 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: he said, you know, I can be the answer to 173 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: your miniatures problem, because at that time we were importing 174 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: most of our games from from the US from Ralph 175 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: Pathur in particular and archived miniatures, and they were obviously 176 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: very expensive too to import, with not just a shipping 177 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: cost but the import duty costs and then the delivery 178 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: times were also in most of the logistics of the 179 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: supply chain was was a bit challenging. So we agreed 180 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: that we've set up a company with him and we 181 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: call that company seay Man. It was based where he 182 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: lived in the Midlands, around around Nottingham, and that's how 183 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: Cecil came to be, and it became, you know, just 184 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: an amazing additive to the to the game's workshop remail, 185 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: which has had historically just been publishing board games and 186 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: opening retail shops. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And 187 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: if things keep keep moving with the miniatures, like, how 188 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: does it how does it grow in terms of the 189 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 1: miniature's role in the games, Because I mean nowadays with 190 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: Games Workshop, at least for me, like I think about 191 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: the games and the minis and it's like it's very 192 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: hard to to differentiate between the two. But it sounds 193 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: like from from what I had in the book, like 194 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: at times that is kind of a struggle to decide, 195 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: even in the early days of games Workshops, like what 196 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: is what is the area that should be receiving the 197 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: most attention the miniatures are the games? Like well, what 198 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: is the the interaction between these two areas well? Steve 199 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: and I were running the game's division effectively, so we 200 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: wanted to put more resource into publishing board games, publishing 201 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: more role playing games, opening more shops, publishing um more 202 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: magazines as well as White Dwarf. It's all around the 203 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: kind of print media and retail division. Whereas Brian answer 204 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: was running sitting on miniatures, wanted more resources allocated to 205 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: more miniatures, and he had a great point because that 206 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: the gross margin in miniatures was quite high, and he 207 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: also argued that there should be a set of rules 208 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: that enabled more minutes to be sold, because if you're 209 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: making miniatures for role playing game, you tend to sell 210 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: them in single units because you only need one behold 211 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: or one skeleton, or one cleric or one fighter. So 212 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: really that's how the Warhammer concept came about, as a 213 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: way to sell units of miniatures rather than single figures. 214 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: At the same time in nineties, at the end of 215 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: nine and we lost the exclusivity with Dungeon Dragons. Now, 216 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: Gary gy as I said earlier, had given us a 217 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: three year exclusive distribution agreement which ended at the end 218 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: of seventy eight. In the beginning, and then in seventy 219 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: came to Businesses and said that he wanted to merge 220 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: his company Tiarsar with our company Games Workshop, and we 221 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: would be given like kind a third of the combined entity. 222 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: But Steve and I were kind of independently minded young 223 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: Brits at the time, and we didn't want to have 224 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: a split life between London and Wisconsin, so we said 225 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: no to that merger opportunity. So whilst remind the biggest 226 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: distributors of Dungeon, Dragons and Tears, our hobbies games were 227 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: no longer the exclusive distributor, and it was only a 228 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: matter of time before they had set up in the 229 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: UK and have their own distribution points, and we might 230 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: obviously be that would obviously impact on our on our selves. 231 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: So we know, we knew we needed something that was 232 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: going to be our own intellectual property that we determine 233 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: our own destiny in our future. But it had to 234 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: something that could resonate with a wide audience and be 235 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,119 Speaker 1: able to scale so well as we had some considerable 236 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: success with with some of the ball games that we published, 237 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: another role playing games that we published on the license 238 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: like Traveler and Room Quest, and imported games like Call 239 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: of a Cathola, it wasn't really until Warhammer came about 240 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: that we were suddenly in a much better place in 241 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: terms of being able to be independent. And it was 242 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: an original idea from Brian Answer to publish a kind 243 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: of free set of rules as a as a as 244 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: a giveaway with the mail orders. But then he brought 245 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: in Rick Priestley, and Rick Richard halliwell to kind of 246 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: beef up the rules, and when they were played, who decided, well, 247 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: rather than just given them away, let's make this into 248 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: a product itself. And that's how Warhammer, the original fancy 249 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: battle game came out in three and even though it 250 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: was loaded with errors and mistakes and wasn't particularly complete, 251 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: it sold out very quickly. Some three thousand copies went 252 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: pretty much immediately. So that's how the second edition of 253 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Warhammer came about. And then they realize that, you know what, 254 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: if this is our own i P. We should focus 255 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: more on it rather than other people's products. And therefore 256 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: Warhammer was really was that became front and central focus 257 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: for the whole of the company. So all the rules 258 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: enabled more minute to be sold. White Dwarf then focused 259 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: on on Warhammer. That retail stores were something less of 260 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: importive products and more of our own products, and that's 261 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: that slow move over happened over quite a few months 262 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: before it became a totally Warhammer focused company. Now in 263 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: the book you described the first space marine minis that 264 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: come about, and there there are some lovely photographs as well. 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: I have to stress for anyone out there who's interested 266 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: in the book. It um, there's so many wonderful photographs 267 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: and scans as well of some of these these early 268 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: magazine publications and you know our early editions of White Dwarf. 269 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: It's it's facts like a scrap book. Well, I like 270 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: to think as a as a personal memoir, where as 271 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: much historical photographic and image reference as possible, and it's say, 272 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: it's more of a a biography, personal biography warts and all, 273 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: and full of anecdotes are on a business, a book 274 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: about business. And that's why there are over four hundred 275 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: photographs in the book, some which of which I mean 276 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: a lot of which have never been seen before. Rummaging 277 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: around in the roof and in the in the loft 278 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: looking for old thirty five millimeter transparencies slides that we 279 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: had to have scan and getting really excited finding looking 280 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: at slide hadn't seen for something, you know, forty five years. 281 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: It's just as an amazing experience in itself. And then 282 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: writing more and more, and then talking to more colleagues 283 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: to validate what we said, and remembering all this weird 284 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: stuff to happen, like having to live in a van 285 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: for three months because he couldn't get any bank finance, 286 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: you're going to see the bank manager telling about Dungeon dragons. 287 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: It looks like you're like, you're mad and asked you 288 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: to leave. So we had to find us everything out 289 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: of a cash flow and it only after into a 290 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: very small office at the back of the States Agent 291 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: and had to live in Staates Van throughout three months 292 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: of an awful winter. But you know, I think I 293 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: said in the books you could call it living the dream, 294 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: but clearly it wasn't. But when you're driven by passion 295 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: around your own hobby, it doesn't seem like hardship. The 296 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: van in question is that this is Van Morrison, correct, 297 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: that was the nickname, the one only Van Morrison. Yes, 298 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: big blue van that was a home for three months. Yeah. 299 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: The the personal stories are are so was there such 300 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: a wonderful aspect of the book again, all these photographs, 301 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: all the real people involved in the in the in 302 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: these games and in games workshop. But it really beefs 303 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: up the personal story. And then you have these little 304 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: so many of these anecdotes and sort of little adventures 305 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: that pop up along the way. Yeah, like going going 306 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: to the States to see let's just see carry in 307 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: in theory attend gen Con nine but taking back two 308 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: months to get there and delivering cars from New York 309 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: to to l A. There another one from l A 310 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: to San Francisco, and then one from Chicago, and all 311 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: the adventures we had along the route. It was a year. 312 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: Of the amount of it was the Olympics, sure, and 313 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: McDonald's running this promotion where if the US want to 314 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: a gold medal, you want to I think it was 315 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: a big mac. And then if they want to that 316 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: Selver medal, you get a large fries and a bronze 317 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: you get a coke. And so we were being kind 318 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: of pretty chat if by wanting the US to win 319 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: all these all these all these medals, because if you 320 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: had a ticket that matched the winning winning sport, you'd 321 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: win one of the items. So that kept us alive 322 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: on the road. And this is this off the trip 323 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: where you went through Vegas. Yes, that's right, Yeah, yeah, 324 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: I I that part was very interesting as well, in 325 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: part because you're describing like taking a jant through the 326 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: casinos there and in a way kind of witnessing gaming 327 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: or at its worst, you know, at it's kind of 328 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: like crushing worst whilst you and your cohorts are kind 329 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: of on this like mission of passion, and you know, 330 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: and you've been describing like just being so inspired by 331 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: these new ideas and in these new game possibilities they're emerging. Yeah, 332 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: it was it was. I mean I think that Vegas 333 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: and did you go there for a few days? But 334 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 1: to see people listen that money, one particular gentleman from Japan, 335 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: it was it sets these hundred dollar bills disappears so 336 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: quickly that we didn't dare gamble a panic because we 337 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: just couldn't afford it. So how long did this? Um 338 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: did this process of going back and and sort of 339 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: piecing together the story of the early games workshops days, 340 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: you know, trying to find these various photographs, Like how 341 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: long did it take to put all this together? Well? 342 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was going to take about six months, 343 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: and I think it took really four years because Um, 344 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the process of of doing it, I was, 345 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: it was also it was it's doing it in times 346 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: where I was free, because even though I'm nearly simply 347 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: three years old, I'm still very much working full time 348 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: on on various projects, still writing finaly fantasy gamebooks and 349 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: gamebooks in which you are the hero of the branching 350 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: narrative with the game system attached. It is the Forces 351 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: of fortive anniversary this year, and I wrote a new 352 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: book to celebrate that, Shadows of the Giants, which was 353 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: great to go back to to my roots in that respect. 354 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: And I'm also I also have my own school in 355 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: Bournemouth which is all around digital creativity and good arts 356 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: education using game based learning and very much influenced by 357 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: Dungeon Dragons that the power of players it were, and 358 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, and also a general partner in Hero Capital, 359 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 1: which is a venture capital fund investing in video games, 360 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: studios and technologies. So it's a question of finding the time. 361 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: And then the more I spent researching and writing and 362 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: the more I wanted it to be as good it 363 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: could possibly be, and so I went the extra mile, 364 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: so to speak to to try and tell the full 365 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: story and make sure what I said was validated by 366 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: cross referencing in magazines and talking to the people who 367 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: were who are around at the time. Sadly some of 368 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: those people have since passed away, but nevertheless I think 369 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: it's a it's a pretty accurate recounts of those origin 370 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: years of origin story is of seventy five to eighty five. Yeah, 371 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: and I have to stress to everyone out there you 372 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: don't have to be like a game designer or just 373 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: uh to be like a really hardcore gaming fan to 374 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: find the story engaging. You know, it's it's it's ultimately 375 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: the story of people in their passions. Yes, I say it's. 376 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: It's I'd like to say, almost like a coffee table 377 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: book where you can just casually look at the images 378 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: of the time, the fashions and the things we did 379 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: in the seventies and early eighties. But also, if you're curious, 380 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: you know, read some of the the story behind what 381 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: became an incredible company now were some three billion dollars 382 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: on the on the London Stock Exchange, and also perhaps 383 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: be amused by some of the anecdotes told in the story. Now, 384 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Fighting Fantasy game book series, and I 385 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: definitely wanted to ask you about about that. Um. I 386 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: actually I picked up I picked up The Warlock of 387 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: fire Top Mountain prior to this interview, and I was 388 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: playing through it with my son a bed, and tremendous 389 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: fun encountering all you know, encountering crocodiles and Biranhas and 390 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: goblins and so forth, and um, very very captivating for 391 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: for both of us, and I think he was getting 392 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: he was almost getting a little too into it, concerned 393 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: about the danger we were encountering. He's he's ten. But 394 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: this this idea of the game book, Um, like, how 395 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: does it? Like? What is the what is the world 396 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: of game books prior to your work with game books? 397 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: And then like, how like what is the process like 398 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: of of laying these out and and creating one that works? 399 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: Because I definitely remember as a younger person picking up 400 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: a game book by someone else there was another company 401 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: with a competitor, I imagine, and it was heartbreaking when 402 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: it broke, like it reached a point where I could 403 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: not go any further because there was some sort of 404 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: number error in the publication. Right well, I believe Fighting 405 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: Fantasy was the very first game book series which had 406 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: a branching narrative and the game system attached to it. 407 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: Around about the same time, although we hadn't seen them 408 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: on this side of the Atlantic, that choose your and 409 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: adventure books were out, but they were more choose your 410 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: own paragraph. There was no game element to making. So 411 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: what we tried to do and Finding Fantasy was distill 412 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: a role playing experience into a single player, solo solo 413 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: adventure whereby the book replace the games master and you, 414 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: the reader, moved from a passive reading experience into an 415 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: interactive experienced by baking choices. So it's that empowerment because 416 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: you are the hero at the end. There are four 417 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: hundred paragraphs. At the end of each one, you have 418 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: to make a choice simplistically, do you turn left or right? 419 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: And then there are puzzles to solve, there are monsters 420 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: to fight. That's when you use the dice. The three 421 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: basic characteristics skidamina, and luck, which are modified through through 422 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: your progress through the through the adventure. Your skill might 423 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: go up if you find a magic potion, or your 424 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: stamina might go down if you lose a fight in 425 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: combat with a monster. And then you test your luck 426 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: to escape or try and get extra extra benefits by 427 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: rolling dice against your your luck role. So we wanted 428 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: to have a very thrilling experience with people that given 429 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: the agency through choices empowering and they were hugely successful. 430 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: They went on to sell over twenty million copies globally 431 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: and they got a whole generation of children reading in 432 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: the eighties. Because of that, the agency that empowerment was 433 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: very compelling, and they spread by word of mouth. Clearly 434 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: there was no Internet at the time, but it was 435 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: the word of mouth, which is the best kind of 436 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: reality you could possibly hope for in the playgrounds of 437 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: the schools, initially in the UK, and then it spread 438 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: into Europe and ultimately globally and so well if I 439 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: Top Mountain as you read, was the first one, and 440 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: we wanted to use our own artists that we'd use 441 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: the game's workshop because we found those really stimulated children's 442 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: imagination because they were realistically detailed where it's probably were 443 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: a bit nervous about it that the imprint because as 444 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: they were children's books, they wanted to around nice safe 445 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: covers with a little toadstool, little gnomes sitting on the top, 446 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: all of them, butterflies in the air. Wise, we wanted 447 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: to the kids to be kind of go, oh, my goodness, 448 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: what does that horrendous creature coming at me? He's going 449 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: to buy my head off. So we wanted that kind 450 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: of thrill of excitement and then the joy of them, 451 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, succeeding by getting through the through the through 452 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: the books so finding a key one room allows to 453 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: open a chest or door further on in the adventure, 454 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: but right to them, as you say, was an absolute nightmare. 455 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: It was like writing multiple storylines at once and having 456 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: to bring um they read is back to certain common points, 457 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: no points where they had to have essential information to 458 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: allow them to progress. You had to balance the economy 459 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: so there wasn't too much gold or too little gold. 460 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: You had to make sure it wasn't too difficult or 461 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: too easy, so there was a fun experience but with 462 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: enough enough challenge but not impossible, and make sure there 463 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: were no colder sects and all the choice you make. 464 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: So we designed them on a flow chart really is 465 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: like a compluter computer flow chart, making sure every every 466 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: split in the in the in the adventure was notated 467 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: and what could be found or not found at each 468 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: decision point. But the important thing is that every decision 469 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: had to have a consequence, otherwise why have it branching anyway. 470 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: So it was really good fun and of course my 471 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: my joy was to lure people to their doom, promised 472 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: them wealth and glory with with nice rose petals along 473 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: the pathway, only for them to fall on poison spikes 474 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: down a pit, which was always always a good fun 475 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: for me, but of course most people cheated. It was 476 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: had their multiple pages in the in the book, and 477 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: you could see them on public transport on buses and 478 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: trains where their fingers about five places in the books. 479 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: They always used to make me laugh when I see that. 480 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: I used to see that in those days. I love 481 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: the the innovation of it. You mentioned the dice that 482 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: are used a couple of d six, but I love 483 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: the innovation of the dice at various dice combinations at 484 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: the bottom of each page that you can flip through. 485 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: You don't have physical dice and do a dice roll. 486 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: That's that was a more recent attation innovation in in 487 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: the original books, which were much more highly detailed in 488 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: their illustrations and perhaps more threatening. It didn't have the 489 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: dice roles, so yeah, I guess that's it would have 490 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: made it easier for playing it on the train. I guess, 491 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Than now you mentioned computer games. 492 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: The games like The Worldlock of Firetop Mountain and these 493 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: other game books you worked on. These have eventually found 494 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: their way into the world of computer gaming, right they did. 495 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, Diceman doesn't really cover too much about video 496 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: games except for what we did at the time in 497 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: in the early eight selling activision games and and very 498 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: early PCs and console gaming just when the there was 499 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: an early crash in the early eighties which was had 500 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: quite a negative impact on games workshop and the amount 501 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: of stock we had a retail. But more recently five 502 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: defensive game books have been available digital digitally from from 503 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: from tim Man Games in Australia designed them as apps 504 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: and Nomad Games have created on games on on Switch 505 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: and also on PC. It's more of a top down 506 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: kind of not a collectible car game, but being rewarded 507 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: with cars when you progress through the adventure and ultimately 508 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: get through. So the Death Chap, Dungeon City of these, 509 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: Forest of Doing of all be imported to to digital format. 510 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: So there's something for everyone these days, books all video games. 511 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: One thing I was wondering about as well is that 512 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, obviously we have this, you know, the rich 513 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: world of miniature based games and dungeons and Enderhagen's various 514 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: role playing games and these these game books as well, 515 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: and in the background, more in the forefront of being 516 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: how you look at it, I guess we have the 517 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: emergence of even more video game opportunities, and today we 518 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: have some pretty amazing video games out there with the 519 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: graphics are better than ever before. The game systems involved 520 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: are so complicated. But we as gamers, gamers of all ages, 521 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: we keep coming back to to like we're coming back 522 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: to these game books. We're coming back to physical tabletop 523 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: games and to games that take place bromily in our imagination. 524 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: What does that mean you think? I think one is 525 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: at the expense of the other. I think it's nice 526 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: to have. Do you know I play both board games. 527 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the room here you might see with 528 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: over fifteen board games in the room, but I also have, 529 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of video games. I think it's it 530 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: depends how you feel on the day. And you can 531 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: also see that it's that vinyl is made a revival. 532 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: People don't just want to stream music to whatever digital 533 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: devices they have. They like to have the physicality. Physical 534 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: books have made a revival because people like to surround 535 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: themselves with things that give them pleasure. The physical as 536 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: well as the distal, I think helps satisfy all parts 537 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: of the human mind, rather than one at the expense 538 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: of the other. So I enjoy both, and depends of 539 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: who I'm going to play with or what I'm going 540 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: to read and in what formats I happened to be 541 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: using at the time. If I'm traveling, obviously it's gonna 542 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: be digital. If I'm at home, probably physical. Now I'm 543 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: gonna connect to something I was gonna gonna ask earlier, 544 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: and I we end up going in a different direction. 545 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: But you describe the first space Marine minis in the book, 546 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: and there's some lovely photographs of the little minis as well. Um, 547 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: the space Marines of warham Er have certainly become very iconic. 548 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: They're very recognizable, part of the of the of the 549 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: brand in clearly big business as well. How did this 550 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: concept originally come together? Well, they've changed an awful lot 551 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: of the time space Marines of of the eighties to 552 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: the space Marines of today. They just got bigger, boulder 553 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: and and and stronger and have got an incredible esthetic 554 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: around them now of course, and everyone everyone loves them. 555 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: They came from very hubble beginnings. I think it was 556 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: Bob Naysmith came up with the original space marine look 557 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: and feel in his iconic first miniature. So I call 558 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: things small like acorns, they become oaks over time, have 559 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: given the rights environment for growth through their popularity. So 560 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: it's great to see them so amazingly successful today. And 561 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: this the power of Warhammer fort ks extraordinary. I think 562 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: there's some talking to about video games. I think some 563 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: fifty licenses now and some extraordinary games being put out there. 564 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: So the world of Warhammer is rich and famous and 565 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: widespread now. Obviously there's a there's there's a lot to 566 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: say about about game design and approaches to game design 567 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: and in the business of game design and the business 568 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: of gaming. Um, do you have any quick advice to 569 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: throw out there to to anyone who is a budding 570 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: game designer or things they want to get into the 571 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 1: industry of game design? Well, I guess it depends on 572 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: what part of the industry you want to get into. 573 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: Is it tabletop war gaming? Is it board games? Is 574 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: a video games? That the the the thing that unites 575 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: the more. When people ask me what's the most the 576 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: three most important things about a game, I always say gameplay, gameplay, 577 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: game playing video games. Whilst technology and graphics are essential, 578 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: they play a supporting role. It always comes down to 579 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: how you enjoying the game. To play rather than what 580 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: things look like. But in the board game, of course, 581 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: great production values has really enhanced that experience now where 582 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: all the bits and the graphics are amazing now. But 583 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: the gameplay is what makes us want to start playing 584 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: in the first place. So games should be quick to 585 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: learn but difficult to master, so you can get various 586 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: degrees of expert abilities in these games. The better play 587 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: are you should be more successful in winning, and of 588 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: course you need an exciting theme that resonates with everybody. 589 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean in board games, and it's no surprise that 590 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: Ticket to Ride has been successful. You couldn't learn it 591 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: very quickly, but it takes a long time to become 592 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: a master of it. Really, all the strategies it looks 593 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: great trains resonate with everybody. The pieces are lovely because 594 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: you pick up these little train carriers and plot them 595 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: around the board. So it's kind of got all the 596 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: component parts of a classically successful game. And similarly with 597 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: video games, there the appeal has to be in the 598 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: gameplay and then the metal level. Of course, that's common 599 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: denominating about all these is the enjoyment caused by people 600 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: playing together. So it's that joy by anything that has 601 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: a shared experience is always enhanced and there's always an 602 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: enhanced experience, whether it's looking at a sunset or having 603 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: dinner or going to the cinema with somebody. And obviously 604 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: with games, you're playing with somebody, that that that's that's 605 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: um that's that fun that's created by just the conversation. 606 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: Whether it's the shared experience of enjoyment or doing a 607 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: deal and reneging on it, that's as that extra level 608 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: of enjoyment. So there's a there are many things to 609 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: consider when designing a game, but there's kind of there's 610 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: there's four basic principles. I think he's absolutely vital to 611 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: include you mentioned earlier all the all the activities you're 612 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: involved in. Uh and of course you're a legend in 613 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: the game design industry. Um are do you still gather 614 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: with friends and just play games purely recreationally? We play 615 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: once a week the same group of people since the 616 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: eight it so still Steve Jackson plus Peter moll anew 617 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: from the video games industry, one of the UK's premier designers. 618 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: I mean he created Populist originally and Fable and Black 619 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: and White another amazing video games titles and it's kind 620 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: of a tongue in cheek gentleman's club in that we 621 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: we play games and keep a record all the games 622 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: played every every every week and score points, and I 623 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: send out a newsletter, the Game's Night Newsletter, largely just 624 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: to criticize that the other people playing. Allows me as 625 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: secretary too, to treat it as my own kind of 626 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: give them verbal abuse the whole time. At the end 627 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: of the year, we have a cup, the cup that's 628 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: presented to the champion. So it's it's, it's, it's it's 629 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: We don't take ourselves seriously about doing it, but it 630 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: has another dimension to to to play in the games 631 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 1: that we do. So you've been doing it for same 632 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: since the eights. I've published six twenty seven issues of 633 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: the Game that newsletter to a circulation to six people. 634 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: Still coming back to the book for a second again. 635 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: The book is is Diceman the origin story of Games Workshop. 636 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about how it came together, 637 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: but but why did it come together? Why? Now? Well, 638 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: I started writing it about four years ago largely because 639 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: Games Workshop was doing so well as a company. Everyone 640 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: was saying, what is this games company? On the London 641 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: stock exchange that's now worth three or four billion dollars. 642 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. How can it be worth more than some 643 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: of the major corporations I've known all my life. Where 644 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: did it come from? And when I meet people, I said, 645 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: what do you what was your first how do you 646 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: get into into games? Or so I started coming called 647 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: games workshop and they said, well, how did that come about? 648 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: So I thought, you know what it really is about 649 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: time this has put down in writing. There's a kind 650 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: of a personal memoir and and something that could be 651 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: there for posterity long after I've gone and Steve has gone. 652 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: It would be there for for people about being remotely 653 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: interested in what has been an incredible journey. The kind 654 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: of birth of the game is in the UK and globally. 655 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: Really it was such an amateur thing in the in 656 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: the in the seventies. But to see that down on 657 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: paper and it won't be lost forever, I thought it 658 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: was important thing to do. So now we are life 659 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: is a game for us. Well, it's a it's a 660 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: it's a great read. I highly recommend it to our listeners. 661 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for coming on the show. 662 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: And I also want to just thank you for you know, 663 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: helping to bring about all these great creations that that 664 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: means so much to us. I mean the Warhammer, Warhammer 665 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: forty thousand, uh like, these are these are things that 666 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: still bring me a lot of joy today as as 667 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: an adult, and certainly gave me a lot of joy 668 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: when I first discovered them as a kid. Thank you. 669 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: That's very kind of you said that. So I mean, 670 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: for me as a game's play out of being able 671 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: to working games for forty seven years been absolute privilege 672 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: and a joy. So thank you, Thank you. Thanks much 673 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: more to sir Ian for taking time out of his 674 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: day to chat with me here. It was a real pleasure. Again. 675 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: The book is Dice Men, The Origin Story of Games Workshop, 676 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: written with Steve Jackson. You can find that wherever you 677 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: get your books. I highly recommend checking it out and 678 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: picking it up. Just a reminder that core episodes of 679 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 680 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: with a listener mail episode on Monday's, a short form 681 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: monster fact or Artifact episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, 682 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,959 Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns and just talk about 683 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema, If you have 684 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: any questions that you would like to ask, any information 685 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: you'd like to share to your particular memories of any 686 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: of these games, workshop creations that you would like to 687 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: to bring up, or if you have experience with the 688 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: Fighting Fantasy game book series. I know these were near 689 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: and dear to a lot of folks growing up right 690 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 1: in We would love to hear from you and potentially 691 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: read those messages on a future episode of Listener Mail. 692 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to man X and j J for producing, editing, 693 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: and splicing everything together here on Stuff to Blow Your 694 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: Mind and Yeah, if you want to reach out to us, 695 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact and Stuff to Blow 696 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 697 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 698 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 699 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.