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Speaker 1: Welcome into Northside Territory. Foul Territory Networks Cubs Podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sadiv Sharma with my partner Patrick Mooney. We are your

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Speaker 1: Cubs beat writers over at the Athletic. Patrick. The Cubs

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Speaker 1: just wrapped up a pretty tough West Coast trip three

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Speaker 1: and three. I think I think pretty much anyone that

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Speaker 1: pays attention to what's going on in the league and

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Speaker 1: how difficult it is to go out West, how difficult

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Speaker 1: those teams are where it is in the season, all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, you'll take that. You'll take that. Three and three.

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Speaker 1: They were they perfect, No like were there are their concerns? Sure,

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Speaker 1: some things popped up. I think they're worth watching. I

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Speaker 1: think the first thing that kind of jumped out to me,

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Speaker 1: obviously was the moves that they made which happened. Was

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Speaker 1: did those happen first day, right before San Diego or

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Speaker 1: was it the second Tuesday?

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Speaker 2: The days are sort of blending together for me for

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Speaker 2: taking a red eye flight home, But Tuesday, I think

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Speaker 2: Tuesday sounds right.

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Speaker 1: Right, And you're right. I think we talked about it

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Speaker 1: how we kind of expected Bullpen moves right like it

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Speaker 1: kind of knew Bolten moves were coming. That was Monday night.

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Speaker 1: When that when all the when all yes, it was

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Speaker 1: Monday night in San Diego. Eli Morgan got forced in action,

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Speaker 1: did not look like he was feeling too great, So

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Speaker 1: we knew those were coming. We kind of expected stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's the match Shaw demotion. I think that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was fully on our radar. It's

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Speaker 1: not shocking, but I think it. You know, there's a lot,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot going on there. What was the feel

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Speaker 1: in San Diego and what did you gather about this move?

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Speaker 2: Just to reframe it, I think going back to spring training,

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Speaker 2: we talked about the idea of like, hey, Matchell might

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Speaker 2: wind up in Iowa, you know, if if he does

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Speaker 2: make the plane to Tokyo. But I did not expect

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Speaker 2: it in the middle of April. I thought there would

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Speaker 2: be more runway, especially when the team is largely playing well,

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Speaker 2: the offense is functioning at a pretty high level, and

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Speaker 2: that Shaw's defense did prove to be passable, not spectacular,

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Speaker 2: but not as glaring an issue as you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: you had thought given his lack of experience there. But

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Speaker 2: Craig Council said, in his experience, seventy play appearances is

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Speaker 2: usually a pretty good barometer in these cases, and Shaw

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Speaker 2: was right around sixty eight. The at bats, in Council's eyes,

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Speaker 2: were a struggle not nearly competitive enough, and that this

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Speaker 2: was a move to get more production out of the position,

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Speaker 2: and you know, with where the Cubs are, they did

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Speaker 2: not hesitate. I think I think you were getting some

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Speaker 2: texts about how Shaw looked at Dodger Stadium. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure exactly when counsel and present team president Jed

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Speaker 2: Hoyer started talking about it, but definitely during that Dodger

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Speaker 2: series was if it was not the initial kind of travelon,

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Speaker 2: those talks really picked up then and Shaw traveled to

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Speaker 2: San Diego, was there, you know, for the first game

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Speaker 2: and then that Tuesday. I think we're gonna kind of

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Speaker 2: hear echoes of this throughout the season, and we will

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Speaker 2: get into that more throughout this episode. But that was

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Speaker 2: a move made with a definite sense of urgency.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean yes, I got some texts during

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Speaker 1: the weekend about Shaw. Initially I got texts about the piece,

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Speaker 1: Like I wrote some notes and one of them was

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Speaker 1: about Shaw's mechanics, And it was not me criticizing the mechanics.

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Speaker 1: It was trying to understand how he got these odd

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Speaker 1: mechanics right, odd mechanics can work. We've seen We've seen it.

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Speaker 1: We see it all the time. Players have weird tics

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Speaker 1: they have they developed. I mean Craig Council had a

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Speaker 1: random batting stance, right, Like, these things can work, you can.

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Speaker 1: You would not teach it to anybody. They end up working, right.

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Speaker 1: I do scot some texts for people saying like, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you asked about that, because like scouts like wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you end up in that position.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he's gonna hit U. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem ready to hit. And these are guys that like

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Speaker 1: him as a prospect. So I think something happened long

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Speaker 1: the way where he must have gotten more dramatic over

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Speaker 1: the over the years. I also believe, you know, he

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Speaker 1: was developing some like poor habits when it came to

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Speaker 1: what he was swinging at and like how he was

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Speaker 1: attacking pitchers. It just seemed like he wasn't himself. And

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Speaker 1: you know, like you said that, there's a sense of

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Speaker 1: urgency here and they have they have veterans that can

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Speaker 1: perform at the level, if not better than what Shaw

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Speaker 1: was performing it, so may as well try and get

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Speaker 1: more production. John Birdie is a good bench bat that

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Speaker 1: can take a you know, can eat some at bats

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Speaker 1: and give you quality at bats and play good defense.

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Speaker 1: Gauge workman, you know you're going to get a good

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Speaker 1: level of defense. Why not give him some run? To

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Speaker 1: give him some at bats. We'll see what they do

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Speaker 1: with Vidala Bruhan. How much he hasn't gotten at bat

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Speaker 1: right yet? Right? I did? I didn't miss something? I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember him. No, he didn't. He hasn't gotten

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Speaker 1: in a game yet unless I miss I think, Uh,

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Speaker 1: he never got any run really in in Tampa Bay

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Speaker 1: uh or or really much in Miami. So who knows.

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Speaker 1: If they give him a shot the way Matt Murvis

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Speaker 1: is performing, I think Cubs fans may want to see

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Speaker 1: some return on investment there.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to do a Matt Murvos episode. That

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Speaker 2: would be me just taking off these headphones and walking away.

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Speaker 1: I think that would be fair. We won't get we won't.

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Speaker 1: We won't go down that route.

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Speaker 2: Good good for good for good for him. Uh, it

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Speaker 2: just it did not work in Chicago. And whatever he

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Speaker 2: does from here, I don't think that's like some sort

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Speaker 2: of on the Cubs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, he just wasn't going to get

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Speaker 1: that playing time. And and look at what Matt Michael

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Speaker 1: Bush is doing anyways, I think ultimately like it. See,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'd be surprised if this is like a

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Speaker 1: months long emotion, right, unless he struggles, unless he's it's

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Speaker 1: something mental where he struggles at triple A, I'd be

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Speaker 1: surprised if that happens. Maybe they're gonna make some some

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Speaker 1: more adjustments, maybe they make more tweaks, and that requires

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Speaker 1: a longer stay. But it was the sense that you got, like,

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Speaker 1: did like this to be a quick quick thing?

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, they said that, but they always say that.

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Speaker 1: Right right, that's fair.

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Speaker 2: It. I mean it was explicit of from counsel and

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Speaker 2: where of we think Matt Shaw is our third baseman.

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Speaker 2: We want Matt Shaw to be Arthur baseman. You know,

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Speaker 2: we expect him back here soon. We want to bring

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Speaker 2: him back here soon.

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Speaker 1: But like.

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Speaker 2: He had his chance and he did not capitalize.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he does make some of those tweaks because it

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Speaker 2: part of this certainly was to exhale, but part of

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Speaker 2: it too was just how it kind of looked, and

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Speaker 2: Hoyer made the point of, like, what made Matt Shaw

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Speaker 2: a great hitting prospect was his ability to do damage,

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Speaker 2: the exit velocities, just driving the ball, And what the

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Speaker 2: Cubs saw was a young hitter who was kind of

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Speaker 2: in survival mode and it was just sort of looking

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Speaker 2: to make contact and you know, not strike out, not

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Speaker 2: look overmatched, and ultimately that's kind of what the numbers showed.

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Speaker 2: I think he was able to draw walks, which you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of boosted his numbers and does show something. And

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Speaker 2: I think everyone who's dealt with him thinks he's a

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Speaker 2: very intelligent player, you know, a self made player who

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Speaker 2: we're guessing is taking this in stride. We don't know.

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Speaker 2: He was not in the clubhouse when it opened on Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: but his reputation is this kind of baseball Jim Ratt.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the game is all about timing and opportunity,

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Speaker 2: and he didn't take advantage this time. Now, maybe someone

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Speaker 2: gets injured, you know, maybe the offense goes into tailspin.

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Speaker 2: Like I don't know how much he can prove at

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Speaker 2: the Triple A level, just given kind of the level

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Speaker 2: of in quality of competition there at this point, Like

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Speaker 2: I do think force feeding him at bats at the

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Speaker 2: major leagues is probably the best thing for his development ultimately.

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Speaker 2: But that's that would not be a good thing for

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Speaker 2: the under pressure twenty twenty five Cubs at all. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I mean this wouldn't be the first time

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Speaker 1: someone's sent down and comes back up and thrives. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of Cubs Hobby, Kyle Sharber, Anthony Rizzo, Kyle

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Speaker 1: Tucker was sent down with that, I believe multiple times.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk. Let's take a quick break, but under

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Speaker 1: pressure Cubs front office is the theme of these moves, right,

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Speaker 1: Let's dig into that after this break. Top Fither.

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Speaker 1: All right. Patrick Mattshaw was not the only move. Nate

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Speaker 1: Pearson was sent down, Eli Morgan was sent to the

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Speaker 1: l Daniel Palencia called up, and Luke Little called up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we can. I mean Luke Little did not look

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Speaker 1: good and is uh whatever. However many it was a

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Speaker 1: two outs that he was able to record.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He was really struggled to throw strikes, couldn't get any chase.

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Speaker 1: It's a good lineup, but that's I mean, you gotta

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Speaker 1: be more competitive than that. I thought Daniel Polentcia was

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Speaker 1: pretty good. He made one mistake, you could say to

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Speaker 1: he kind of hung a slider to uh. One of

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Speaker 1: the best players in the game in Manny Machado. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Like that was pitching back to back. I believe right,

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Speaker 1: he pitched back to back and he and he was

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Speaker 1: still throwing like triple digits, and that was a big

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Speaker 1: concern last year. Can you handle throwing back to back?

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Speaker 1: I I think I think that's I'd be encouraged if

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Speaker 1: I if I were a fan, if I'm on that

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Speaker 1: coaching staff like Sulensia did, like I thought that looked

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Speaker 1: that was encouraging. I. Outside of that, you know, like, listen,

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Speaker 1: they the bullpen had to I said this earlier in

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Speaker 1: the week. I didn't feel like I was being too

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Speaker 1: aggressive when I said, like, you know, they need to

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Speaker 1: be aggressive. They need to they need to make moves

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Speaker 1: like this is what we were told when they built

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Speaker 1: this depth with the bullpen going into the coming into

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Speaker 1: the season, that they are not going to sit and

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Speaker 1: wait for everything to kind of work itself out. If

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Speaker 1: things aren't working, you gotta make changes because why else

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Speaker 1: have what there's no other reason to add all these

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Speaker 1: pieces and tell us the problem last year was a

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Speaker 1: lack of depth, and then you're not going to use it.

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Speaker 1: They're using it. At least it may not be perfect,

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Speaker 1: but at least they're using it. And and I do

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Speaker 1: see signs of the bullpen kind of smoothing out in

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Speaker 1: different ways. But it's I think fans should be encouraged,

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Speaker 1: if by nothing else the sense of urgency that the

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Speaker 1: front office is showing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Craig Council, narrative killer downplayed that idea

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Speaker 2: when I asked him about that very idea, and I

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Speaker 2: get what he was saying, that these are all individual

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Speaker 2: situations like Seawright not not producing enough. Eli Morgan gets hurt,

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Speaker 2: they need a picture, and you know Nate Pearson had

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Speaker 2: been struggling. But look, we all know some of the

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Speaker 2: pressure points here. We also know the strategy that you

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Speaker 2: just outline, s how have Like what's the point of

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Speaker 2: collecting all these options if you're not going to press

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Speaker 2: these buttons? And that doesn't mean they're going to, you know,

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Speaker 2: have a quick hook, short leash every single time. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It seemed just different, like middle of

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Speaker 2: April with the Cubs in first place, and not just that,

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Speaker 2: but like playing pretty well in terms of the eye test,

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Speaker 2: not just you know, run differential, running up the points

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Speaker 2: against like a Dodger's position player, but like no or

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Speaker 2: like doing it against bad teams, like this has been

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Speaker 2: a pretty impressive body of work. And to flip on

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Speaker 2: Matt Shaw that quickly, even though long term, you still

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Speaker 2: believe in him, and to you know, on a lesser extent,

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Speaker 2: apply the same logic to Nate Pearson, you know, lesser

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Speaker 2: meaning like you know, maybe you're not as invested as

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Speaker 2: a first round pick, but like they put a lot

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Speaker 2: of effort into Nate Pearson, they identified him. I mean,

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Speaker 2: their history with him, as we've talked about, goes all

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Speaker 2: the way back to his draft year, Like this is

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Speaker 2: a guy they believe in. And you know, Counsel and

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Speaker 2: Hoyer both like raved about how he looked in spring

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Speaker 2: training that Jed Base said, like he might have looked

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Speaker 2: like our best reliever when they got on the plane

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Speaker 2: to Japan, and for whatever reason, whether it was the

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Speaker 2: schedule or a bad habit, bad matchup, whatever, it just

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Speaker 2: did not carry over. And again they said the same

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Speaker 2: thing of he just needs to work on stuff out

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Speaker 2: of the spotlight and sort of on his own pace,

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Speaker 2: and that certainly makes sense. He could come back and

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Speaker 2: be very good. He was good after the trade last summer.

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Speaker 2: But to me, it just felt like, Okay, if you're

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Speaker 2: willing to do this this early when things are going well,

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Speaker 2: it'll be fascinating to see what they do when things

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Speaker 2: inevitably turn at some point.

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Speaker 1: Right right, if they hit the skids, Yeah, they're certainly

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Speaker 1: going to you know, pull whatever lever they can.

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Speaker 2: Ye.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I do think they were encouraging

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Speaker 1: signs for the bullpen over the last week. I think

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Speaker 1: we saw I think we saw Ryan Presley turn a corner.

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Speaker 1: He's throwing harder, he is throwing strikes. He looks like

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Speaker 1: a much better pitcher. He looks like what you know,

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Speaker 1: you trade it for, and you wrote about that. I

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Speaker 1: think it's huge that they have identified some pieces here.

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Speaker 1: Right There's Presley looks like himself. Porter Hodge is a

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Speaker 1: pretty damn good reliever, like one of the better ones

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Speaker 1: in the game, I would assume, And and Julian Merriweather

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Speaker 1: is starting to, you know, find his form again. He's

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Speaker 1: healthy and he looks like himself. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's I don't think this is like, I think you

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Speaker 1: can see a pathway to where the bullpen is in

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Speaker 1: a concern. Right it is into a major concern. The

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Speaker 1: what you want is these close games where you're down right,

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Speaker 1: you have down the relievers you use when you're down right.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to go to Porter Hodge and Ryan

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Speaker 1: Presley and those guys in those situations. Right, I saw

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Speaker 1: some people, you know. I don't know if this is

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Speaker 1: super prevalent or if people aren't super aware, if I'm

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Speaker 1: just seeing these random tweets, But there are people wondering,

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Speaker 1: why aren't why is in Porter Hodge in that situation?

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Speaker 1: Why if the if the Padres can go back to

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Speaker 1: back with their relievers, why can't the Cubs. That's not

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Speaker 1: the issue. The issue is when you're down, you do

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Speaker 1: not use your best relievers. And no manager does this.

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Speaker 1: No manager not, and especially not in April. It's not

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Speaker 1: a Craig Council thing. It's not like an advanced stats

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Speaker 1: thing or anything like that. It's just like like every

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Speaker 1: manager says, you have your down relievers when you're even

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Speaker 1: if it's a close game, yes you want to keep

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Speaker 1: it close, but you're not gonna use Porter Hodge. You're

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Speaker 1: not gonna use Ryan Presley, You're not gonna use Julian Merriweather.

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Speaker 1: They're unless you're just out of relievers, right. He didn't

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Speaker 1: even want to use Ethan Roberts that one night. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: that was yeah, that was that was when.

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Speaker 2: Hey, yeah you had to come in to clean up littles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't think he wanted to use him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's that's why Luke little Face did Fernando tatists.

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Speaker 1: He was just he's trying to get through that inning

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Speaker 1: using his down relievers. So you know this is you

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Speaker 1: want those guys to be a little cleaner. That's where

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Speaker 1: you want to see some things step up, which is

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Speaker 1: why I felt like Palencia was despite giving up a run,

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Speaker 1: his progress, the way he looked, I think is a

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Speaker 1: nice little step in the right direction. You have to

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Speaker 1: feel good about that. Ethan Roberts, whatever he's become now,

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Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. I did not expect him to

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Speaker 1: earn trust this quickly, but I appreciate that counsel will

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Speaker 1: do that. He'll see something he likes. He clearly sees

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Speaker 1: things that he likes, and he's like, yep, I trust

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Speaker 1: this guy now, or I'm going to push him and

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Speaker 1: give him more, give him more things, right, Like that's

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Speaker 1: kind of how he looks at it. Okay, you pass

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Speaker 1: this test, what else can you do? Yeah? And he

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Speaker 1: gives those people that opportunity and he seems pretty aggressive

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Speaker 1: with it. So you know, this is this whole season,

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Speaker 1: This whole summer is going to be about this front

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Speaker 1: office and the way they behave and how they treat

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Speaker 1: any situation that comes up that could be that could

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Speaker 1: slightly derail things because a long, extended slump. I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't. It's a We've talked about this month and

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Speaker 1: how difficult it is so much, and and it is,

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Speaker 1: but you cannot let it sink you. You can not have

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Speaker 1: extended poor play. You have to you have to hang

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Speaker 1: around at minimum and get through this tough stretch and

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Speaker 1: then and then really take advantage of the weaker parts

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Speaker 1: of the schedule. And it just doesn't seem like this

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Speaker 1: front office is going to be waiting for things to happen, right, No.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're kind of the seventh or eighth

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Speaker 2: reliever in that Cubs bullpend, like you have to be

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Speaker 2: performing and that I think that's kind of the first

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Speaker 2: step here of just cycling out those guys at the bottom,

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Speaker 2: like if they're not getting the job done, like there

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Speaker 2: are some of those arms at Triple A Iowa that

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Speaker 2: they're at least intrigued by, and then maybe hmm, something

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Speaker 2: does click and you have a guy to where you

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Speaker 2: can stay competitive and give your offense a chance in

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Speaker 2: those games where you are trailing. We know that Council

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Speaker 2: is pretty conservative, that he's willing to sort of play

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Speaker 2: the percentages on his relievers, so not constantly chased from behind,

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Speaker 2: but that wanting to be in position to like win

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Speaker 2: those games that you should win. And that's why I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, Ryan Presley stood out during this road trip

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Speaker 2: of you know, winning a series at Dodger Stadium, getting

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Speaker 2: the win in that ten inning game at Peco Park.

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Speaker 2: It's a pass fail job. And he is now four

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Speaker 2: for four and safe chances he's won a game. The

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Speaker 2: game that he's lost that was the Justin Turner air

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Speaker 2: at first base, which would have been a play to

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Speaker 2: get him out of it. Like, yes, the whip is

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Speaker 2: not good. There were some rocky addings at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: but you know, in talking to Tommy Hotteve, the pitching

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Speaker 2: coach in San Diego, he just explained how even before

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Speaker 2: the Cubs acquired Presleague, Presley and his group had identified,

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Speaker 2: which we had written about, certain kind of mechanical adjustments

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Speaker 2: that they wanted to clean up. I know, which sounds

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Speaker 2: great in theory, but the issue with it, how to

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Speaker 2: be said, is for any of these guys, that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff in the training room, the weight room,

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Speaker 2: drill work on flat ground. Translating it to the mound

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Speaker 2: in real time with like fifty thousand people at Dodger

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Speaker 2: Stadium kind of breathing down your neck is different. And

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Speaker 2: it took him a while, but to his credit, he

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Speaker 2: limited the damage. Now he got bailed out by Dansby Swanson.

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Speaker 2: You were there that night when he made that awesome tag,

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Speaker 2: But otherwise it did not spil. And that's why there

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Speaker 2: is an optimism that the Cubs can kind of shrink

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Speaker 2: some of these downtimes that are coming, that the spirals

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Speaker 2: don't have to last as long. They needed someone from

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Speaker 2: opening day who could kind of control the moment and

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Speaker 2: handle it, particularly given the difficulties in the schedule, and

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Speaker 2: in that sense, I am totally jinxing Ryan Presley for

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Speaker 2: this weekend at regular Field and we'll see how it looks.

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Speaker 2: You know, when the Dodgers and the Phillies lineup behind them.

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Speaker 2: But you know, if you can set aside the outings

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Speaker 2: that are very magnified at the front end of the

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Speaker 2: season and acknowledge what council said that you're hoping your

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Speaker 2: reliever throws fifteen to twenty pitches at most, but one

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Speaker 2: or two in every outing can really tilt it one

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Speaker 2: way or the other. So no one's saying that he's

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Speaker 2: going to be perfect. But if his stuff is roughly

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Speaker 2: there the way it was last year, his experience and

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Speaker 2: composure are, you know, beyond reproach. Maybe the Cubs have

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Speaker 2: a guy in the ninth inning to where kind of

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Speaker 2: the panic level can can lower a little bit. On

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Speaker 2: social media every time Ryan Presley enters. Now, I'm a

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Speaker 2: luxury of saying that because I won't be there on

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Speaker 2: Friday writing on deadline the way you may be.

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Speaker 1: But uh well, I would echo your thoughts. I agree.

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Speaker 1: I think there's something there, and I think there's a

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Speaker 1: reason for optimism. And you know, we'll see this weekend's

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Speaker 1: gonna I've been saying this before every series. I feel

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Speaker 1: like this weekend the series is going to be tough.

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Speaker 1: It's it's Corbyn Burns, it's Zach Gallon, it's Merrill Kelly,

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Speaker 1: good luck to offense, wind is howling out. I believe

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Speaker 1: that that's what it is expected to be. On Friday,

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Speaker 1: we'll see it's it's I think it's gonna be one

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Speaker 1: of those typical Chicago weekends where one day it's doing

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Speaker 1: one thing, the next day it's completely different. So we'll

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Speaker 1: see what it looks like all weekend. But tomorrow is

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Speaker 1: expected to be howling out. So it's Colin Ray, Corbyn Burns,

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Speaker 1: who knows who what what happens on days like that.

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Speaker 1: We we've seen days like that where it's howling out

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Speaker 1: and it's a you know, three to one or something

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Speaker 1: weird like that. No one gets it up in the air.

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Speaker 1: It's a you know, this gauntlet has not stopped. So

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll continue to see what they do. I think it.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to see how the bullpen kind of like

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Speaker 1: continues to coalesce. I think that's that'll be the continued

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Speaker 1: thing that we that'll be the thing that we continue

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Speaker 1: to watch and frankly like, how this starting rotation continues

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Speaker 1: to do and if they're going to make any changes,

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Speaker 1: if they're going to sick with with Colin Ray or

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Speaker 1: whatever it may be. You know, Justin Steele obviously out

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Speaker 1: for the season, so we'll see if any if any

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Speaker 1: shifts come this weekend or or next week, we'll be

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Speaker 1: on top of it. Thanks so much for listening everyone.

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Speaker 1: This is Northside Territory Foul Territory Networks Cubs podcast. Make

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Speaker 1: sure to rate, review, subscribe, Subscribe to the YouTube channel,

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Athletic where Patrick and I are on

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Speaker 1: top of all things Cubs. Thanks so much for listening

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Speaker 1: to everyone. Take