Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chank and this is the circuit. I gotta say, you,
Speaker 1: driving a hummer is pretty badass.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm going for, Like badass soccer mom.
Speaker 1: Yep, that's me riding on the streets of Detroit in
Speaker 1: an electric hummer with GM CEO Mary Bara. It's rare
Speaker 1: to me to CEO who's actually made it from the
Speaker 1: factory floor to the top job. But that's exactly what
Speaker 1: Bara did. She's been the CEO of General Motors for
Speaker 1: a decade, weathered political heat, labor disputes, and the biggest
Speaker 1: recall in the company's history. But she's also taken GM
Speaker 1: from financial ruin to profitability, though Wall Street still needs convincing.
Speaker 1: So when you look at the stock, does it ever
Speaker 1: piss you off?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It does.
Speaker 2: But again I can get mad about it, and I
Speaker 2: can be upset and frustrated, and believe me, I have
Speaker 2: those moments.
Speaker 1: Now she's shaking things up, vowing to electrify GM's entire
Speaker 1: fleet and keep up with Tesla and Chinese Carmaker byd All,
Speaker 1: while the public still is an fully bought in on
Speaker 1: the whole ev thing. If it works, it could be
Speaker 1: the biggest transformation in automotive history. Joining me on this
Speaker 1: edition of the Circuit. GM Chair and CEO, Mary Bara.
Speaker 1: You've been CEO of GM for ten years. You've been
Speaker 1: working here for forty. Tell me about when you got
Speaker 1: the call to be CEO. I was actually in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. And we'd met with the board and had
Speaker 1: an I guess, for lack of a better term, in interview,
Speaker 1: and you know, the next morning, currency at the time,
Speaker 1: Dan pulled me in the room and he said, we've
Speaker 1: selected you, and it's just one of those you just
Speaker 1: don't even know how you're going to feel. What I
Speaker 1: remember is they immediately wanted me to go into the
Speaker 1: room to.
Speaker 3: Talk to the board, and.
Speaker 2: All I wanted to do was text my husband, and
Speaker 2: so I think I just texted him and I said,
Speaker 2: I think, I said, CEO. I can't remember what I
Speaker 2: texted about it, Like I literally had time to type
Speaker 2: like a couple characters, and then I set it down
Speaker 2: and then I had a go And it was probably
Speaker 2: an hour later that I got to talk to him,
Speaker 2: But then we weren't going to announce it for I
Speaker 2: think a couple of weeks, so I'll never forget when
Speaker 2: I landed. He took me out to a restaurant and
Speaker 2: we were sitting at the bar because it was last
Speaker 2: minute and we had this private celebration. We were like,
Speaker 2: oh no, we're just really happy, and so it was.
Speaker 3: It was special.
Speaker 2: So it was a surprise, like did you have any incline?
Speaker 2: And it was being considered at that point, but you
Speaker 2: never know, and I don't take things for granted.
Speaker 1: It was a tough time for JAM right leading up
Speaker 1: to this, the two thousand and eight recession hits, the
Speaker 1: auto industry gets pailed out, GM goes into bankruptcy. Did
Speaker 1: it feel like the company was in free fall?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: As we went through it, I didn't ever consider there
Speaker 2: wasn't going to be a GM. It was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what do we have to do? Well, so let's do it.
Speaker 2: And at the time, I was running manufacturing engineering, which
Speaker 2: meant I was responsible for all of the plants, all
Speaker 2: our facilities, all the plants, all the machinery equipment in
Speaker 2: the plants. And it immediately became just incredible work. As
Speaker 2: we were planning to go into bankrupt to then be
Speaker 2: able to come out of bankruptcy. I just wish we
Speaker 2: could get this over because I was already thinking how
Speaker 2: do we restructure, how do we move forward?
Speaker 1: Three weeks after you became CEO, you had to testify
Speaker 1: before Congress in the ignition switch crisis. How did that
Speaker 1: moment test you?
Speaker 2: You know, when you look at the roots of the
Speaker 2: ignition switch, the parts were designed in the late nineties,
Speaker 2: and so here we are now in twenty fourteen dealing
Speaker 2: with this situation. But it was tragic because people lost
Speaker 2: their lives. So again, as we got into that, it
Speaker 2: was we were going to be guided by three principles.
Speaker 2: We were going to be transparent, we were going to
Speaker 2: do everything in our power to make sure something like
Speaker 2: that never happened again, and we literally changed the way
Speaker 2: we designed vehicles. And then third, we were going to
Speaker 2: do everything we could to support the customer. And it
Speaker 2: was a very trying time because when you go through
Speaker 2: a situation like that, all of a sudden, everything's bad.
Speaker 2: There's nothing good about General Motors, and so you know,
Speaker 2: testifying was probably one of the hardest things that I
Speaker 2: ever did. But I really wise person said to me, Mary,
Speaker 2: you're talking to your employees. That got me through it,
Speaker 2: because I really I wanted all of our people to
Speaker 2: feel okay. Yes, this happened and it was not good,
Speaker 2: and we can never let it happen again. But there's
Speaker 2: a lot of good at General Motors, and here's what
Speaker 2: we're going to do. And so it really became the
Speaker 2: way to talk to our employees.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean cars are like the life and death
Speaker 1: piece of technology, right, like people died. How do you
Speaker 1: process that?
Speaker 2: It was really really hard. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 2: do a lot of soul searching. I could turn it
Speaker 2: back the clock and change it. I would, And that's why,
Speaker 2: you know, we set up a victim compensation fund. We
Speaker 2: did a rental program. I remember one time on a
Speaker 2: Friday afternoon, I get a call and it's from someone
Speaker 2: who's really mad. He said, I don't feel comfortable driving
Speaker 2: this vehicle. And you said, there's going to be a loaner, Revlain,
Speaker 2: I can't get one, and like we work that night.
Speaker 2: By the next day we had one. Because when you're
Speaker 2: in a situation like that, everyone think you know everything,
Speaker 2: and really you know something happened, but you don't really
Speaker 2: know everything, and everybody wants you to guess and everybody
Speaker 2: wants to say, well, this had to be it. And
Speaker 2: that was another hard part about testifying because I didn't know,
Speaker 2: so I looked pretty stupid because I'd say, we're investigating this.
Speaker 2: But in the end it was the right decision because
Speaker 2: had I guessed at what happened, I would have been wrong.
Speaker 2: And so as we learned, we started changing. And then
Speaker 2: I think probably one of the most important points for
Speaker 2: the company was when we were finished with the external report,
Speaker 2: we held a global town hall. We invited the media
Speaker 2: and we laid it out and it was hard.
Speaker 1: It was hard describe GM's culture before you took the wheel.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say we were already making changes. In fact,
Speaker 2: Mark Reis, who's our president today, at the time he
Speaker 2: was leading North America, he had already started to work
Speaker 2: on what are our core values and what are the
Speaker 2: behaviors we want to demonstrate, And so because that work
Speaker 2: had literally been done the year before, and at the
Speaker 2: time I was running Product, he was running North America.
Speaker 2: When I learned about it is that this works really
Speaker 2: well for Product as well. Can we kind of join in?
Speaker 2: And then we took it to our CEO at the time,
Speaker 2: and he supported it for the whole company. So then
Speaker 2: as we got into the ignition swhich it gave us
Speaker 2: an opportunity to demonstrate those values and to live the
Speaker 2: behaviors because a lot of times people talk about it,
Speaker 2: this is our culture, and it's all great and fun,
Speaker 2: you know, when everything's going well, but when you're in
Speaker 2: the middle of something that difficult. We over communicated and
Speaker 2: we had issues where there was engineers are like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm afraid to sign off on my design mark again.
Speaker 2: Running product at the time said bring it to me,
Speaker 2: I'll sign it with you. I mean, we had to
Speaker 2: just get everybody feeling positive again and that we're going
Speaker 2: to solve this issue. All we can do is make
Speaker 2: sure it never happens again and be better. But I
Speaker 2: think that was a core moment for the company because
Speaker 2: we did live our values.
Speaker 1: My understanding is you worked really hard to evolve the
Speaker 1: culture to a safety first culture, and now every meeting
Speaker 1: starts with like a safety mess right, How hard was
Speaker 1: that to do? How difficult was it to transform the culture, well,
Speaker 1: the culture to start every meeting with a safety message
Speaker 1: because not only do we want to have product safety,
Speaker 1: we want to have workplace safety, and we want to
Speaker 1: have psychological safety.
Speaker 3: And so you know, it's been ten years.
Speaker 2: Every year we actually dedicate a safety week, because there's
Speaker 2: a lot of people here who weren't here for that.
Speaker 2: And one of the things I said is, I never
Speaker 2: want to forget, because when you feel how bad you feel,
Speaker 2: when you know the company made a mistake that cost
Speaker 2: people their life, you want to make sure everybody feels
Speaker 2: the weight of that so it never ever happens again.
Speaker 3: I can tell.
Speaker 1: I mean, you get emotional even just thinking what does
Speaker 1: this spring up for you?
Speaker 2: I knew we needed to make change, but then you
Speaker 2: start to read and talk to people in their local culture.
Speaker 3: Takes five years. I don't have five years. I have
Speaker 3: like five days.
Speaker 2: And so we got our senior leaders together in the
Speaker 2: fall and we did something we'd never done before. We said,
Speaker 2: if you could change one behavior in this company to
Speaker 2: make the company better, what would it be? And we
Speaker 2: asked them to submit it ahead of time. And the
Speaker 2: interesting thing is, at the time it was three hundred people,
Speaker 2: it narrowed down to like five or six things. And
Speaker 2: so then our whole day was talking about those and
Speaker 2: how we were going to hold ourselves accountable. And we said,
Speaker 2: these are the behaviors we all agree, let's hold ourselves
Speaker 2: accountable to start behaving this way starting tomorrow now. It
Speaker 2: was just the start, and we had many things where
Speaker 2: we had to keep reinforcing and admitting when we hadn't
Speaker 2: done everything the way we said. But we built on
Speaker 2: that and I think that was the start of the
Speaker 2: culture change and our people saw it. In the GMT members,
Speaker 2: they saw it and they believe.
Speaker 1: Now you're trying to change culture again to being a
Speaker 1: tech forward company that's focused on EVS and av's. How
Speaker 1: hard is that going to be to do?
Speaker 3: Yet?
Speaker 2: Again, it's hard because human beings don't like change. Well,
Speaker 2: this is the way I've always done it work well, Like, no,
Speaker 2: we can't do it the way we did it before.
Speaker 2: Are we thinking through? Are we using technology? Are we
Speaker 2: getting in front of where the industry is going? It
Speaker 2: requires everybody to change, and it's hard because in some
Speaker 2: cases some people just aren't willing to change and you
Speaker 2: have to be aware of that. And it's not that
Speaker 2: they're bad people, they just they're not aligned and you
Speaker 2: have to make change.
Speaker 3: So it's hard.
Speaker 2: If you don't do it, what happens you don't exist.
Speaker 2: General motors, even though we've been here for one hundred years,
Speaker 2: we do not have a right to exist and we
Speaker 2: all should understand that from what happened in two thousand
Speaker 2: and eight, So we don't have a right to exist.
Speaker 2: We have to serve the customer better than anyone else.
Speaker 2: And now every industry is transforming because of technology. But
Speaker 2: this is also, I think for our industry, a historic
Speaker 2: change that we'll look back on. And when we went
Speaker 2: from horse and buggy to internal combustion engine, it happened
Speaker 2: to over the course of fifty years. This is not
Speaker 2: going to be a fifty year transformation, and you just
Speaker 2: can't assume you're going to get it right. So you
Speaker 2: have to really stay agile, and you have to be
Speaker 2: willing to change. Then you've got to go to the
Speaker 2: entire team and say, okay, yes we're pivoting because we
Speaker 2: learned something new or we're seeing something different with the customer.
Speaker 3: So it's hard and.
Speaker 1: If you don't do it, GM does exactly, people can
Speaker 1: say you're being dramatic.
Speaker 3: I don't think we are.
Speaker 1: Your predecessors were intent on making GM the world's largest
Speaker 1: auto company, and you pulled back on some of those
Speaker 1: global prestige plans. Why was that the strategy? Was it
Speaker 1: too much?
Speaker 2: Well? I think as the company as more and more
Speaker 2: competition came around the globe. A lot of what we
Speaker 2: do is how do we deploy our owner's capital. And
Speaker 2: if you're doing a vehicle in a region or a country,
Speaker 2: and from the get go it's not set up to
Speaker 2: be profitable, you're destroying capital. And so as we got
Speaker 2: into it, we started looking around the world and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I remember one pivotal meeting where the country leader and
Speaker 2: the region leaders like, well, it was a program approval
Speaker 2: and I'm like, we can't approve this. I said, not
Speaker 2: only does it not make money, there's no plan to
Speaker 2: make money. Like, well, we have to have this product.
Speaker 2: I said, why what's going to happen if you don't,
Speaker 2: because we're destroying capital here, but just kind of reverberating,
Speaker 2: and I said, if you'd like to come back when
Speaker 2: you have a path to profitability, we'll look at it.
Speaker 2: And they're like, but we've always been here doing what
Speaker 2: you've always done. If it's not working, you can't keep
Speaker 2: doing it. And that was a seed change for the
Speaker 2: company as well, because all of a sudden it was like,
Speaker 2: we have to earn our way. Every region, every country,
Speaker 2: every product has to earn its way.
Speaker 1: Some would say, your gas powered cars still make more
Speaker 1: profits than evs. So how do you balance what's best
Speaker 1: for shareholders and consumers and the balance sheet, the climate,
Speaker 1: all those things.
Speaker 2: Well, we look at where the world is going. I mean, again,
Speaker 2: this is a long cycle business. You know, new vehicles two, three, four,
Speaker 2: sometimes five years, depending on a ground up approach, and
Speaker 2: so you can't just look at what's working today. You
Speaker 2: have to look at what you know, what song's going
Speaker 2: to be popular three years from now. So we have
Speaker 2: to look ahead. We have to really think of where
Speaker 2: the customer is going to go, where the world's going,
Speaker 2: where the regulatory environment is going. I think we're well
Speaker 2: positioned to be able to make this change. It won't
Speaker 2: be linear. So we're well positioned in our internal combustion
Speaker 2: engine vehicles. I think we're well positioned in EV especially
Speaker 2: this year as we execute and people see our EV's.
Speaker 1: GM actually got into EV's pretty early. I mean, there
Speaker 1: was a EV one in the late nineties. You know,
Speaker 1: now decades later, governments are presumably on board, lawmakers are
Speaker 1: on board, and yet it still seems so hard. Where
Speaker 1: are we in the transition to EV's as an industry.
Speaker 3: We're in the early days.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think what's important to note is
Speaker 2: when we worked on EV one, and then in the
Speaker 2: twenty ten timeframe we have the Chevrolet Volt, and then
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen we released the Chevrolet Bolt that we
Speaker 2: are updating now to our latest generation. So General Motors
Speaker 2: always had a commitment to EV's I think what we're
Speaker 2: still seeing is battery chemistry. Battery technology is still expensive,
Speaker 2: and because the vehicle is already a very expensive purchase
Speaker 2: for consumers, it's continuing to get costs down while we
Speaker 2: continue to improve the technology.
Speaker 1: You scaled back some of the EV targets mainly because
Speaker 1: of the battery manufacturing issues, Like, why is that still
Speaker 1: such a challenge.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're through those challenges now, but you know,
Speaker 2: we were making something new. I feel like we do
Speaker 2: have a lot of manufacturing expertise, but I think we
Speaker 2: took for granted some of the newer processes and we
Speaker 2: will not do that again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're coming out with an EV for every
Speaker 1: GM brand. When will you know the strategy is working.
Speaker 2: As we get vehicles out this year and we see
Speaker 2: how they're adopted, we believe we're well priced. See a
Speaker 2: lot of companies right now discounting, So as we go
Speaker 2: through this year, there'll be a lot of proof points,
Speaker 2: and then we're just going to continue to adjust the
Speaker 2: strategy led by the customer.
Speaker 1: You've said the plan is to be all electric by
Speaker 1: twenty thirty five, is that really still achievable? That's in
Speaker 1: ten years.
Speaker 2: It is, but it's for our light duty vehicles, and
Speaker 2: it is achievable, and that's why we're working so hard
Speaker 2: to get cost down to have entries in the key
Speaker 2: segments at the different price points. But as we get
Speaker 2: really capable, EV's out there and we can get price
Speaker 2: down and still drive profitability hit our targets. Charging infrastructure
Speaker 2: I think is going to be critical to drive EV adoption.
Speaker 1: I mean this. I mean we've all heard the horror
Speaker 1: stories about drivers stranded. What's it going to take to
Speaker 1: get there?
Speaker 2: I think it's having a robust charging infrastructure. Every quarter
Speaker 2: there's more charges at it, it gets better, but it's
Speaker 2: also making sure they work their available ease of use.
Speaker 2: There's growing pains right now for sure. A friend of
Speaker 2: mine who lives in California who drives EV said, right now,
Speaker 2: driving an EV is an adventure. You have to plan
Speaker 2: ahead where you don't necessarily when you hit the road
Speaker 2: in an ice vehicle, is there going to be a
Speaker 2: gas station where I need it?
Speaker 3: You assume there will be well.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, there's inflation, there's interest rates,
Speaker 1: the cars are getting more expensive, and it almost feels
Speaker 1: like hype is slowing down. Do you feel like you're
Speaker 1: battling that like a sentiment? You know as well.
Speaker 2: I think it was like it's going to be all
Speaker 2: EV's by tomorrow, and we knew that when we looked
Speaker 2: at what was available, what battery technology costs are, the
Speaker 2: fact we've got to build infrastructure for battery raw materials.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it was over and now it's
Speaker 2: probably under hype and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2: But you know, again, yes growth is slowed, but it's
Speaker 2: still growing, and so you have to look at those
Speaker 2: trends and as there's breakthroughs and products that hit different
Speaker 2: price points for consumers. As charging becomes better, you'll see
Speaker 2: bump ups.
Speaker 1: You've said GM wants to make a million EV's or
Speaker 1: will make a million evs by twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Is that still what we said is we wanted to
Speaker 2: have capacity to assemble you know our assembly capacity and
Speaker 2: we'll be on track because as we make this transformation,
Speaker 2: I'd rather be a little ahead than a little behind.
Speaker 1: Do you ever feel pressure to stick to your guns
Speaker 1: on this? Do you ever question yourself?
Speaker 3: Of course I do.
Speaker 2: I don't underestimate any of the competitors in this EV landscape.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm constantly looking and testing our strategy. We've
Speaker 2: made adjustments since we started talking about the strategy in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. We've shifted many times, but I always say
Speaker 2: it's shifting to the good because as you learn more information,
Speaker 2: you should take in that information and improve your strategy.
Speaker 1: Tesla stock is up thirteen hundred percent in the last
Speaker 1: ten years. GM is up like twelve thirteen percent. If
Speaker 1: GM has the right strategy, why isn't it valued like TESTA?
Speaker 3: I think that's a really good question.
Speaker 2: But I think we're a company that is one hundred
Speaker 2: years old and we've had challenges in our past, like bankruptcy.
Speaker 2: There's some companies say this is what I'm going to do,
Speaker 2: and the value shows up right there.
Speaker 3: We have to prove it, and so we're going to
Speaker 3: prove it.
Speaker 1: You have met or beat expectations thirty five out of
Speaker 1: the last thirty six quarters. So when you look at
Speaker 1: the stock, does it ever piss you off?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: It does, I mean because I but again, I can
Speaker 2: get mad about it, and I can be upset and frustrated,
Speaker 2: and believe me, I have those moments. Believe me, I
Speaker 2: have those moments. But then it's like, Okay, what am
Speaker 2: I going to do about it? And so it's kind
Speaker 2: of like, let's work harder, Let's make sure we're being
Speaker 2: efficient at the end. It's our responsibility. You can't go
Speaker 2: home and have a pity party.
Speaker 1: What's it like competing with Elon Musk Well, I.
Speaker 2: Have a lot of respect for him and what he's done,
Speaker 2: and now we're partners charging infrastructure, so you know, I
Speaker 2: have to give credit where credits.
Speaker 1: Due, whether or not you like the method, right, he's
Speaker 1: a master marketer, certainly bull but also super unpredictable. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's that like leading alongside someone like that.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm going to be Mary Bara. We're
Speaker 2: a different company. I think we're held to different standards.
Speaker 2: People look at us differently, and I recognize that, so
Speaker 2: respect him as a peer in the industry. But General
Speaker 2: Letters has to follow our plan, our path, and I
Speaker 2: can't try to be.
Speaker 3: Something I'm not. Is that fair?
Speaker 1: Unfair that they judge you different?
Speaker 2: Now, I always say to my kids, life's not fair,
Speaker 2: So why spend any time on it?
Speaker 3: You know, lifestaff fair? Just get over it.
Speaker 1: I'd love to know what you think of the cyber truck.
Speaker 1: America loves GM trucks. Is America going to love the
Speaker 1: cyber truck?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I haven't had the opportunity to see it in person
Speaker 2: or drive it, So I'm going to reserve judgment until you.
Speaker 1: Haven't seen what I feel like they're all over.
Speaker 2: I've seen pictures, but no, I haven't seen I haven't
Speaker 2: seen one even driving by. So I think it's not
Speaker 2: really fair for me to have an opinion on something
Speaker 2: I haven't driven or actually seen other than a picture.
Speaker 1: How do you think about the competition. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: intense competition. There is because trucks are such an important market.
Speaker 1: But really there's been other companies over the last decade
Speaker 1: or more that have tried to come in and take
Speaker 1: the US truck franchise away from the traditional Big three.
Speaker 1: But it's a very interesting segment because there's really strong
Speaker 1: loyalty and also Designing a truck is very different than
Speaker 1: designing of sedan or even a crossover. Those customers we
Speaker 1: know them very very well. We know what's important and
Speaker 1: think about. You know, a lot of trucks are part
Speaker 1: of a person earning their livelihood. So we know trucks
Speaker 1: and that's why we started with the Hummer, which is
Speaker 1: a super truck, why we have the Silver Router work
Speaker 1: truck now the Silver Router RST. We're very committed and
Speaker 1: intent on keeping our truck franchise. Elon Musk has mocked
Speaker 1: traditional automakers for how long it took them to get
Speaker 1: into EBS. Was he right about that?
Speaker 2: Even though we were moving, I would have accelerated the
Speaker 2: pace know hindsight's twenty twenty, but again, I can't spend
Speaker 2: a lot of time on that. So I'm pleased with
Speaker 2: where we are now. I'm pleased that we started back
Speaker 2: in seventeen and eighteen designing the LTM platform because that's
Speaker 2: what enables us to have the vehicles we're launching now
Speaker 2: and also will enable us to get to our break
Speaker 2: even a variable profit by the end of the year,
Speaker 2: in mid single digit profitability next year. So I'm very
Speaker 2: proud of that investment. If I could have started a
Speaker 2: year earlier or two years earlier, wish I would have.
Speaker 1: The car market has changed so much in the time
Speaker 1: that you've been at the company. I was thinking about Japan,
Speaker 1: which was king of the car market for a long time,
Speaker 1: but even now times are changing. Is there a lesson
Speaker 1: in that for GM?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to understand where the customer's going. So,
Speaker 2: for instance, the sedan market is very, very small because
Speaker 2: once people moved to a crossover in suv, they were
Speaker 2: sitting higher. They like that stance. Very few customers will
Speaker 2: go back to a sedan unless it's a luxury or
Speaker 2: performance sedan, and so you've got to look at those
Speaker 2: trends and they're global. I remember many years ago now,
Speaker 2: but while I was in this world, st in this market,
Speaker 2: customers I was going to want sedans and like people
Speaker 2: are people, and we pushed hard in a couple of other
Speaker 2: segments to go to crossovers sooner than what the leadership
Speaker 2: and the country want. And those are the bets you
Speaker 2: make on where the industry's going that where it is.
Speaker 1: You've been spending a lot of time in China. What's
Speaker 1: your impression of the Chinese car market.
Speaker 2: There's still as tremendous growth opportunities, but you know right
Speaker 2: now there's a lot of sorting that's going to have
Speaker 2: to happen. There's over one hundred domestic Chinese EV producers.
Speaker 2: No market can support that. I think there's only a
Speaker 2: handful that are profitable. So there's a lot of sorting
Speaker 2: that's going to happen over time.
Speaker 1: So sorting means consolidation or some of these will just
Speaker 1: go out of business.
Speaker 2: Something has to happen. I mean, this is a capital
Speaker 2: intensive business. No country, no region can support that many carmakers.
Speaker 1: What's a bigger threat TESLA or BID?
Speaker 2: I take them both as significant threats, and that's why
Speaker 2: we have to have great vehicles priced right that customers
Speaker 2: want to buy.
Speaker 1: Do you think legacy American automakers will maintain their position?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: I mean, again, we have to earn that right. I
Speaker 2: think we have clearly have the capability to do it.
Speaker 2: But we can't rest on our laurels. We can't assume
Speaker 2: people are just going to naturally stay with us.
Speaker 1: The car customer is very rational. You've also been spending
Speaker 1: a lot of time in Washington. How has GM been
Speaker 1: trying to influence policy.
Speaker 2: I'd say overall, we're very aligned in the direction to
Speaker 2: move to EVS. We think they're better vehicles. One of
Speaker 2: the things we've been really asking for is to harmonize
Speaker 2: the standards between the EPA and NITZA out of the
Speaker 2: DOT and then the Department of Energy. So as you're
Speaker 2: going to go and move aggressively into EVS, it's difficult
Speaker 2: when you've got to do one thing for one regulatory
Speaker 2: body and one for another. So if they can be harmonized,
Speaker 2: they'll actually accelerate the move.
Speaker 1: Whether it's Trump or Biden in the White House could
Speaker 1: mean two very different things for GM. How do you
Speaker 1: see it.
Speaker 2: We've worked with every administration. We're going to continue to
Speaker 2: do that. We're a highly regulated industry, so we have
Speaker 2: to we have to have a good relationship with our regulators,
Speaker 2: regardless who's in office. So we'll continue to work and
Speaker 2: do that. We are committed to our eb plan.
Speaker 1: When Trump was in office, he attacked GM. He attacked
Speaker 1: you multiple times over jobs, over manufacturing. How has your
Speaker 1: relationship evolved or how did your relationship evolve?
Speaker 2: Well, you know a lot of times things were very
Speaker 2: public and I would always reach out, and whether it's
Speaker 2: talking to him or talking to someone in the administration
Speaker 2: at the most senior level, most of the time it
Speaker 2: was a misunderstanding. It was not recognizing or GM having
Speaker 2: to make tough business decisions that weren't something that they
Speaker 2: agreed with.
Speaker 1: Trump has already been to Detroit as part of his
Speaker 1: reelection campaign, and certainly GM is going to be used
Speaker 1: to spark debate. How are you preparing for that? Are
Speaker 1: you bracing for more trouble?
Speaker 2: We're going to keep looking to how do we build
Speaker 2: the right relationships and how do we keep doing and
Speaker 2: help people understand why we're doing what we're doing, and
Speaker 2: we'll stay the course.
Speaker 1: Is being the target in a situation like that? How
Speaker 1: do you deal with a situation like.
Speaker 2: I think you have to try to the extent you
Speaker 2: can to get in front of it and not be
Speaker 2: the target that's communicating helping people understand. The political world
Speaker 2: is very different than the business world, and you have
Speaker 2: to remember that. And again, we're long cycle business. We
Speaker 2: can't just flip on a dime, nor should we.
Speaker 1: Biden has made ambitious moves on climate, but I wonder, like,
Speaker 1: how worried are you that the entire agenda could change.
Speaker 2: I think when you look there's a lot of pieces
Speaker 2: that are in some cases legislative, and so could something change,
Speaker 2: of course, but I think directionally there's a lot of
Speaker 2: pieces in place that would make it hard to make
Speaker 2: it a complete change back to only ice vehicles.
Speaker 1: Now, while you've been building a new GM and investing
Speaker 1: in new EV plants, closing traditional plants, that means people
Speaker 1: have lost jobs, Like you've laid off a lot of workers.
Speaker 3: That hurts the people.
Speaker 1: That hurts the community, It hurts your reputation depending on
Speaker 1: who you ask. How does that sit with you?
Speaker 2: First, we have closed very few plants because I think
Speaker 2: when we look at this, we're looking at and that
Speaker 2: really wasn't an ev ice EV transition that was making
Speaker 2: the business more efficient.
Speaker 1: And we have, but you have laid off a lot.
Speaker 2: We have, but we a lot of those people had
Speaker 2: the opportunity to move to another one of our plans.
Speaker 2: We actually have more employees from a represented perspective than
Speaker 2: we did over the last few years. So it may
Speaker 2: not be the job where the job was, but there
Speaker 2: is a job for the most part, and so I
Speaker 2: think that's important because we also have to continue to
Speaker 2: make the business efficient. Competition is fierce. If we don't
Speaker 2: make those decisions, we put everything at risk. So we
Speaker 2: have to keep driving for that. And then as we've
Speaker 2: become more efficient, from an engineering and staff's perspective, we
Speaker 2: always have to be looking at how do we drive efficiencies.
Speaker 1: The people who depended on those jobs, how do you
Speaker 1: process that? Well, these are human beings and I know
Speaker 1: you know, And it's like, depending on the people you
Speaker 1: talk to in the community, some people love GM or
Speaker 1: some people were touched by these layoffs, it's hard.
Speaker 2: I think you have to explain what's happening and why
Speaker 2: you want to put yourself in their shoes. Again, for
Speaker 2: many people, there was another job move and I can
Speaker 2: understand for a lot of people and move is hard
Speaker 2: and I can empathize with that. But I also know
Speaker 2: with what we went through in twenty eighteen, if we
Speaker 2: don't take the steps to drive efficiency, especially as the
Speaker 2: whole industry is transforming, we're going to weaken our position.
Speaker 2: And then as it relates to some of our technical talent,
Speaker 2: we provide support as they have the opportunity to move
Speaker 2: to different companies, to different careers, to different industries.
Speaker 1: You just got through a big strike, but there's a
Speaker 1: sense that auto workers are still anxious.
Speaker 2: What would you say to them. I don't really know
Speaker 2: if they're anxious, you know. I think there was a
Speaker 2: lot of misunderstanding as we went through the last negotiation
Speaker 2: the industry and GM, for sure, we weren't looking for
Speaker 2: a concessionary agreement. We knew how hard our manufacturing team
Speaker 2: members work through COVID, coming back into the plants when
Speaker 2: we didn't really understand it, and following the safety protocols
Speaker 2: to make sure they could safely build vehicles. So I
Speaker 2: don't know if there's confusion or angs. I think it's
Speaker 2: more we got through that, recognize our employees, and now
Speaker 2: we're going to continue to move forward to keep them
Speaker 2: understanding where we're headed as a business and why that's
Speaker 2: best for their future, and we'll move forward.
Speaker 1: GM has had its site set on self driving since
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven the DARPA Grand Challenge, and I
Speaker 1: read that a GM scout actually spotted Cruise. What got
Speaker 1: you hooked on Cruise?
Speaker 2: Well, when you think about autonomous driving today, depending on
Speaker 2: the year, forty thousand people in the US alone lose
Speaker 2: their lives and ninety percent of those excents are caused
Speaker 2: by human error, and so I think as a company,
Speaker 2: is the technology becomes available, we have a responsibility to
Speaker 2: solve those problems for society.
Speaker 1: I rode in a Cruse vehicle just a few months
Speaker 1: before it shut down in San Francisco, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: the smoothest ride, but I could see the promise. I
Speaker 1: could see the perils broadly.
Speaker 2: What went wrong at Cruise in your view, Well, I
Speaker 2: think we didn't recognize the team there, didn't recognize the
Speaker 2: need to build a relationship with the local regulators, the
Speaker 2: state regulators as well as the first responders. I think
Speaker 2: they believe, Hey, this technology is so great, it's got
Speaker 2: such a great promise. We've already demonstrated safer than a
Speaker 2: human driver. We'll get it out there and people will
Speaker 2: love it. Well, I don't think technology adoption happens that
Speaker 2: way that many times, and so I believe in the
Speaker 2: technology and what we're working on. We need to relaunch
Speaker 2: with very much a focus of as we go into
Speaker 2: a community, making sure the local leadership, the regulators, and
Speaker 2: the community understands the why of the technology, why it's
Speaker 2: better safer, giving people who don't have mobility for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: the opportunity to have that freedom, so we can do
Speaker 2: a much better job communicating. But I'm really proud of
Speaker 2: the work that the team's done. From a technology perspective.
Speaker 1: Surely, if self driving cars were on the roads and
Speaker 1: the volume that regular cars are, there would be computer errors,
Speaker 1: wouldn't There there's human errors now. I think the fear
Speaker 1: is that the computers are going to make mistakes too
Speaker 1: a lot of times. So when you think about human error,
Speaker 1: the software doesn't drive impaired, It knows all the traffic
Speaker 1: LAFE and rules, and so there's just such a higher
Speaker 1: probability now if but there have been accidents, there have,
Speaker 1: and some of those, you know, you look at it
Speaker 1: and say, regardless if it was a human or autonomous
Speaker 1: hicle driving, that would have happened if something falls in
Speaker 1: front of the vehicle right as it's moving. So I
Speaker 1: think you have to put it into perspective. But I
Speaker 1: think when we accept losing forty thousand lives a year,
Speaker 1: we can do better. So what's the plan to fix
Speaker 1: cruise and can get it back on track.
Speaker 2: Our focus right now is we're working on what is
Speaker 2: the relaunch plan? Because we believe in the core technology
Speaker 2: and the team that's doing that. So we have said,
Speaker 2: in the next handful of weeks or a couple months,
Speaker 2: we'll be rolling out that new plan, and we plan
Speaker 2: to go to one city and really demonstrate building the relationships,
Speaker 2: engaging the community and demonstrating the technology and the good
Speaker 2: that it provides, and then we'll go from there.
Speaker 1: You know, folks say way Mo is a lot farther
Speaker 1: along than cruise. How much is riding on your ability
Speaker 1: to turn this around.
Speaker 2: A couple of years ago, there were many companies saying,
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to have autonomous driving next year,
Speaker 2: and I think everybody's learned it's a big challenge, but
Speaker 2: it's something I believe that we can do. We're working
Speaker 2: that plan right now, and when it's completing approved, we'll
Speaker 2: be transparent and we'll share.
Speaker 1: And you're still committed to self driving absolutely, and you're
Speaker 1: going to be selling these cars. Is it's a robo
Speaker 1: taxi system? Like, what does this look like in the future.
Speaker 2: Well, I think as we go forward, there's opportunity from
Speaker 2: a robo taxi. There's also opportunity from personal autonomous vehicles
Speaker 2: that I think would change the way people move so
Speaker 2: that gives me confidence we need to move forward.
Speaker 1: A Weimo was recently vandalized in San Francisco.
Speaker 3: I believe that they.
Speaker 1: Set it on fire. Why do you think there's still
Speaker 1: so much resistance, Like, where is that coming from?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're both operating in that city. I
Speaker 2: don't want to speak for Weimo. I have respect for
Speaker 2: the team and for Alphabet, but I think building the
Speaker 2: relationship with the community is very important, and I think
Speaker 2: those are issues that we're going to have to work through.
Speaker 2: I can tell you there's other communities that are very
Speaker 2: interested in the technology because they see the promise.
Speaker 1: It comes to av's and EV's. I still wonder do
Speaker 1: consumers really want this. Do you think they're bought into
Speaker 1: the future or are you looking at this with the
Speaker 1: mentality of if we build it, they will come.
Speaker 2: Well, if we build something better and when they get
Speaker 2: exposed to it, they will like it and they will
Speaker 2: adopt it. And I really believe EV's are better, and
Speaker 2: I believe when autonomous technology offers the promise, I know
Speaker 2: it has to make daily lives better. I mean, I
Speaker 2: love to drive, but before in staff and go traffic,
Speaker 2: you can be more productive. So I think there's a
Speaker 2: huge opportunity. And again it's life changing technology. Where do
Speaker 2: you want GM to be in five years in a
Speaker 2: leadership position with evs and having av technology that customers
Speaker 2: really understand and love.
Speaker 1: What about in one hundred and fifteen years? I mean,
Speaker 1: this company has been around one hundred and fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Where is it going to be in another century? But
Speaker 1: you know, it is really cool.
Speaker 2: When we were working on our purpose, we went back
Speaker 2: and I actually read the initial articles of and corporation
Speaker 2: for the company, and in that they talked about electric vehicles,
Speaker 2: they talked about flying vehicles, and so who knows what
Speaker 2: our future holds, but I think our forefathers were pretty
Speaker 2: innovated and saw along futures.
Speaker 1: And what do you want your chapter in this history
Speaker 1: to look like like when it's written? What do they
Speaker 1: say about Mary Bara?
Speaker 2: I don't know what they'll say, But I'm here working
Speaker 2: to make sure we build a strong team, that we
Speaker 2: have a strong foundation. So as we're in the middle
Speaker 2: of this incredibly exciting transformation, we're well positioned for the
Speaker 2: next one one hundred and fifteen years.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're not going to be here in
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen years, but I never know, We
Speaker 1: never know. They're making a lot of progress on They're
Speaker 1: doing a lot of things to help us live longer.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to
Speaker 1: this episode of the Circuit. You can watch the full
Speaker 1: episode for a closer look at Mary's quest to drive
Speaker 1: GM into the future. I'm Emily Chang. Follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. You can watch
Speaker 1: new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or on
Speaker 1: demand by downloading the Bloomberg app to your smart tv,
Speaker 1: and check out other Bloomberg podcasts on Apple Podcasts, the
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia app, or wherever you listen to your shows, and
Speaker 1: please let us know what you think by leaving a review.
Speaker 1: I'm your host and executive producer. Our senior producers are
Speaker 1: Lauren Ellis and Alan Jeffries. Our associate producer is Tyler Kota.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks again,