1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, 4 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: the myth legend, our super producer, Mr Max Williams, whoa 5 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: Max is the Best. They call me ben joined as 6 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: always with my rider Die nol No. This one has 7 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: been a long time in the making, my friend. Yeah, 8 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry for my lackluster Max is the Best 9 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: because you know, usually obviously I do my little like 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, crowd noise and worshipful of Max because that 11 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: is what he is do. But today we're kind of 12 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: talking about someone that sort of stepped out, uh, to 13 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,919 Speaker 1: to meet what they thought were their public um, the people, 14 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: to to to greet them and present them with the 15 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: brave new world, a new way of doing things, and 16 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: were met with sad trombones. Uh that they're that elicited 17 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: about the most sad trombone reaction one could possibly um 18 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: react with, which is committing ritual suicide. Uh pretty heavy spoiler. Yeah, 19 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: well you know, I mean, I mean, let's just a 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: little bit of a trigger warning because it is. Yeah, 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: this episode is it is. It's got some uh bombast, 22 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: it's got some iconoclastic kind of behavior, it's got literature, 23 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: it's got culture of the Japanese variety, and it really 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: also is an interesting story of kind of East meets 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: West in terms of a Japanese you know, writer who 26 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: really did kind of make a name for themselves in 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: the United States. We are of course talking about the 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: bizarre final year is of Yukio Mishima. Yeah, I see 29 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: this as um. I see this as a telling illustration, 30 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: a telling example of how different your favorite artists lives, 31 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: maybe than what you initially perceive. You might have a 32 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: favorite musician who all of a sudden, apparently out of 33 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: the blue, comes comes with some political stance that really 34 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: surprises you, or a sculptor perhaps, or as in this case, 35 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: and author. So we are not diving into this alone. 36 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: This is a two part episode. This is our whole week. 37 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: It's Mishama Week. Here at Ridiculous Historians and Folks, we 38 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: are joined for the first time on air with one 39 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: half of our brand new research associate team. Let's hear 40 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: it for the one and only Mr Zach Williams. No 41 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: relations Hi, everybody, keep for having me. It's a it's 42 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: doctor Zach Williams. As a matter of fact, I'm kidding. 43 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm kidding. Don't please, don't do that. I'm joking. You 44 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: did parody parody. One night over sleep down, a doctor appeared, 45 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: but this was no normal doctor. Who's there? It's Zack 46 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Zach who the doctor named Zach. And he's here to 47 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: bill your scraps just for Colledge. Pett is a cat 48 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: teaching history books and stuff. Let's go with other things. Yeah, 49 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: that'll work, Zack. Do you really think you're gonna get 50 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: out of this now? You? You big leaguus in this way, Doc, 51 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: doctor Zach. I like doctor Zach because it sounds like 52 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: both kind of formal and informal. Because Zach I've always 53 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: just thought as a real fun love and kind of 54 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: name because I think of Zach Morris from Saved by 55 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: the Bell. I'm sure you don't love that comparison, but 56 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: it is what it is. We're we're glad, We're glad 57 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: to have you, Zach. And this is a this is 58 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: a topic that is near and dear to your heart 59 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: and to a mutual friend of ours, a friend of 60 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: the show, Peyton Fisher, who turned me onto the film. 61 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: Uh Mishima many many many years ago. Um, how did 62 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: you kind of come to appreciate and and even know 63 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: about this very kind of divisive figure. Well, I've always 64 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: been attracted to iconoclasm generally speaking. And uh, at the 65 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: time that I first encountered mishmast fiction, I was in 66 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: a creative writing program and undergrad I was trying to 67 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: be a poet and a fiction writer and just seeking 68 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: out things of a sort of like late modernist postmodernist 69 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: spent which is sort of like my wheelhouse at the time. 70 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: And I'd always had a sort of like affinity for 71 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: for for Japanese aesthetics and culture. And I read his 72 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: book The Sound of Waves, which I thought was like 73 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: a very standard kind of coming of age story that 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: kind of celebrated this very traditional idea of masculinity and 75 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: sort of like being a man working hard to get 76 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: what it is that you wanted despite your poverty or 77 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: something like that. It's a very bootstraps Romeo and Juliette 78 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: style story. But one of the things that really struck 79 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: me was one of the characters in that book, whose 80 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: name escapes me now because it's been so long since 81 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: I read it, but she's in love with this uh. 82 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 1: This lead character Shinji, and has gone to university, comes 83 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: back find that he's in love with Um, the daughter 84 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: of of like a shipping baron um named hut Sue, 85 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: and basically contrives to break up their relationship by spreading 86 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: rumors about her um ill repute will say, her sort 87 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: of promiscuity. And one of the things that's so interesting 88 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: about that book is that it really comes alive in 89 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: the sections where you're kind of stewing alone with this 90 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: character kind of thinking about her motivations and her kind 91 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: of guilt and shame over having come between these two people, 92 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: And there's this really interesting sort of psychological kind of 93 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: depth to those moments that isn't quite present in the 94 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: plot of the rest of the book. I was like, well, 95 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: it's very interesting kind of approach to this character, this 96 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: idea of like you could have contempt for somebody while 97 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: also having some sort of empathy. It's empathy, but also 98 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, you're relating to them in a really in 99 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: a real way. Because we we can all be spiteful, 100 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: kind of backbiting, conniving people when we're not getting the 101 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: things that we want. We feel like we've been denied 102 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: of something. So I thought, Wow, that's actually a really 103 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: lovely sort of section of the book. And then I 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: saw the film Mishima Life in Four Chapters, because I'd 105 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: read the book cold and found all of this stuff 106 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: about this fellow, all of these contradictions a true postmodern figure, 107 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: if you could ever think of one, because so much 108 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: of his life is shrouded in like this sort of 109 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: public persona, this performance, but also the ambiguities of his 110 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: private life, the ambiguities of his political affiliations in ideology, 111 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: whether or not those things we're actually like serious kind 112 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: of pursuits or or just another part of the window dressing. 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: And I always find that sort of thing very, very fascinating, 114 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: like somebody who turns their life into a sort of 115 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: theater and object of art, and in many cases much 116 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: to their own detriment, which is definitely kind of like 117 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: the cautionary tale of this story. I think, yeah, agreed, 118 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: And if we and also when we look at the 119 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: life of someone who is uh universally considered to be 120 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: one of the most important writers in Japan during this 121 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: time period, we see that he lives through some crazy 122 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: events in history, I think we're right to have that 123 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: disclaimer trigger warning here. But there's a lot that goes 124 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: into that final act. Uh. Like many many authors then 125 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: and now, this guy takes a pen name the Mishima 126 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: Yulkyo we know now was not born Mishima Yukio. Correct. Yeah, 127 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: he was born a Hiraka Kimitake. And one of the 128 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: funny things about any sort of encounter with Japanese literature, 129 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: you end up with his um, especially early translations in 130 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. There's always this weird orientalism to it 131 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: um And at one of the front notes, the author 132 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: bio in a fairly recent vintage edition of The Sea 133 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: of Fertility Books lists of this like a like a 134 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: sort of like a son of a samurai family. Everyone's 135 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: very quick to kind of play up these associations between 136 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: like the old samurai and the sort of this sort 137 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: of modernist writer and things like that. Of course, a 138 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: lot of that comes from the turn in his politics 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: near the end of his life, but it's a very 140 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: interesting kind of thing to see him having sort of 141 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: come out from under this um. It's sort of like 142 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: old money um. They were vassals of the Maiata clan, 143 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: for instance, in the northwestern regions of Japan, and naturally 144 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: his family very impressive, comes from this incredibly impressive background, 145 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and you have this young man who, ostensibly, in his 146 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: younger years as a child, very quiet, subdued, isolated, not 147 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: part securely impressive by any means, um sort of frail 148 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: and constitution and asthmatic um, definitely not the picture of 149 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: masculinity that you would expect from like you know, the 150 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: vassals of old samurai, you know, sort of families and 151 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: things of that nature. So it's a very interesting kind 152 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: of thing to sort of see him make a new 153 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: version of himself from out of his failures to embody 154 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: these um, these very kind of auspicious beginnings. And I 155 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: think too it's also a very kind of apt metaphor 156 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: for the transitional period that Japan would find itself in 157 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: later on, in the forties and fifties and in the sixties, 158 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: where things become very very fraught. Indeed, and uh, it's 159 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: always something that I find myself drawn to, is uh. 160 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: This sort of failure. Failure is a theme not only 161 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: in literary production, but also in like the production of 162 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: the stuff of life and sort of like making one's 163 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: own self and identity also Japan on me, I've always 164 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: been fascinated by their sort of mix of you know, 165 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: such you know, steeped tradition in and like this kind 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: of like almost you know, um surf and vassal kind 167 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: of you know, militarized highly almost like medieval kind of structure. 168 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: And then you know, after the bomb is dropped and 169 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: all of that, then they have to kind of reimagine 170 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: themselves culturally in this almost like kind of futurist kind 171 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: of mode. Uh. And so it really is this very 172 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: fascinating mix that I think creates some really incredible culture, 173 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, literature or on anime or technology 174 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. It is a culture that 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: literally has had to reinvent itself. But then of course 176 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: there are always echoes of of the past as well. 177 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: So I think you know, Mishima kind of like embodies 178 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: that to a degree as well, in terms of kind 179 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: of being this modern figure but also being this kind 180 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: of like person that came from those those ancient traditions. No. Absolutely, 181 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: And it's worth noting too that before all of this 182 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: um this business with you know, the suicide, the sort 183 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: of stage coup data which we'll get too later. UM 184 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: a very cosmo allaton Um polly math like he was. 185 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: He was a lyricist and singer and actor, a poet, 186 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: a novelist, short story writer. UM, a theater director and writer. 187 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: He had his own theater groups. He was all over 188 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: the place. I can't imagine um a more prolific figure 189 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: from that time. And you know, naturally nowadays people have 190 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: hard time finding even time to read much less. Right. 191 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: You know, I've succumbed to the pressures of work, and 192 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: I barely myself right anymore. This man produced upwards of 193 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: thirty plus novels over the course of his career, poems, plays, 194 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: critical essays as well, Yes, very importantly critical essays. Yes, 195 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: one of the most obvious kind of I guess doorways 196 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: into his ideology and his thinking comes from his long 197 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: form essay Son and Steel, which the read the listeners 198 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: can't see it. But if you look at the cover 199 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: of this book, and this is a Japanese modern writer's addition, 200 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: it's an English translation from a Japanese print by Kodansha Um. 201 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: He is shown Uh in traditional uh Samurai underclothes, clutching 202 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: a katana which he is pulling from the scabbard absolutely yoked, 203 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: which is like another thing we'll talk about later. Right now, 204 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: this this I love that you're showing us to cover here, 205 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: and folks, uh, do check it out on your browser 206 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: choice you get a sense of this this Um I've 207 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: always thought that humans are the stories they tell themselves, 208 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: for good or for ill. Right, you're building your own mythology. 209 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:34,599 Speaker 1: And this cover photograph stands and start contrast to Mishama's 210 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: early childhood. So we said he's born January four, Zach. 211 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: In some of your research, you introduce us to his grandmother, 212 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: and he starts out kind of sheltered under a little 213 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: bit of an authoritarian regime. I was I was startled 214 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: to learn that the grandmother takes him in because she 215 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: says he can't live with his parents. Uh, it's the 216 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: situation is too dangerous, based apparently on the fact that 217 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: the home as a second floor. Yes, it's all very 218 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: um strange stuff and that sheltering that sort of like 219 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: comes down a lot to like a sort of physical constitution. Like. Um, 220 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: it's just it's it's very very interesting when you kind 221 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: of dig into this sort of like cloistered environment that 222 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: he comes out in. Um. He is socialized almost only 223 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: with with with girls. He is kept in her sort 224 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: of drawing room, surrounded by the sort of objects since 225 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: the aesthetics of femininity and things like that. It's very 226 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: very interesting sort of how much this kind of the 227 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: room itself is a kind of metaphor for psychology, kind 228 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: of like looking inward, constructing a sense of self. And 229 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm by no means like a psychologist or even like 230 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: a Mishima X spurt, Like I don't want to sort 231 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: of prop myself up as such, but you know, it's 232 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty common knowledge that our experiences and you definitely 233 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: sort of like barn to who we become as adults. 234 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: And it seems to me that this is sort of 235 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: the beginning of all of that. And I think also 236 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: like those ties to the sort of old Japan which 237 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: his grandmother represented and held onto a deeply classist woman, 238 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: for instance, would not take him to the theater because 239 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: they'd be rubbing like elbows with the rabble and things 240 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: like that. So without past times, without a sort of 241 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: means of socialization that most people would find conventional, he 242 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: instead turns to these interior flights of fancy sort of 243 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: the poetry, the writing um. And if I may read 244 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: from the opening of A Son and Steel for just 245 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: a moment, just to get his own sort of um, 246 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: please do two cents on it. Max, Let's get some music. 247 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: So this is on page eight of Sun and Steel. 248 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: When I examined closely my early childhood, I realized that 249 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: my memory of words reaches back farther than the memory 250 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: of the lush and the average person. I imagine the 251 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: body precedes language. In my case, words came first of all. Then, belatedly, 252 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: with every appearance of extreme reluctance and already clothed in concepts, 253 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: came the flesh. It was already as goes without saying, 254 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: sadly wasted by words. First comes the pillar of plain wood, 255 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: then the white ants that feed on it. But for me, 256 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: the white ants were there from the start, and the 257 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: pillar of plaine would emerge tardily, already half eaten away. 258 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: And it's sort of obviously lovely sort of metaphorical passage there, 259 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: but also indicative of like an intense neurosis and anxiety 260 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: surrounding this tension between being a man, specifically a man 261 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: of action and a man of letters, which is a 262 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: tension that comes up over and over and over again. So, 263 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, the grandmother was concerned about him living with 264 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: his parents because she thought he was too soft basically, 265 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: and they were gonna like break him, right, and so 266 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: she wanted to kind of handle him with a little 267 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: bit more not kids gloves exactly, but you know, put 268 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: him down a path that maybe more suited his constitution, 269 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: which was a little more feminine and a little bit 270 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: less you know of that kind of warrior class mentality 271 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: kind of right. And then you know, when she passes away, 272 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: he is returned to his parents, and all of the 273 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: progress that she has made they essentially attempt to undo 274 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: before his very eyes. Right. Absolutely, As father is um 275 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: obviously a very intense figure in his life, as with 276 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: many people, UM, but it was not particularly enamored with 277 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: his son's personality proclivities talents. Uh. And I used the 278 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: word talents because these talents emerge like very early, um, 279 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: especially with regards to poetry twelve, when he when he's 280 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: when he's transferred back to live with his birth parents, 281 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: grandmother's yeah, and he's you know, he's already kind of 282 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: laying in that sandbox that that so many people who 283 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: who don't have that kind of physical acumen find themselves, 284 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, like the aesthetics, the arts literature, you know, 285 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: like and those things. But oh absolutely yeah. Um. And 286 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, and eventually we all go through the phase 287 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: where we start lifting a lot of weights, you know, 288 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: and uh and I love it. Yeah, we all want 289 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: to become people of action to some degree. Even later, 290 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: when he you know, finds some success, his father still 291 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: is like, nah, man, this isn't this isn't a real thing. 292 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: And I don't care what quote unquote level of success 293 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: and admiration you have achieved. What you're doing is you know, 294 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: worthless essentially, you know. I mean this is like a 295 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: classic overbearing, mean spirited kind of disciplinary and parent attitude 296 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: when a kid goes away, that that that branches off 297 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: from the path of the parent expects that even when 298 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: they see that you succeeded, they still can't give you 299 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: that praise and um kind of you know pat on 300 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: the back that that you probably need. Incredibly passive aggressive 301 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: as well. Um. And when when Misha was like fifteen 302 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: or sixteen, he writes them a letter, he doesn't just 303 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: sort of come out right at dinner, you know, he says, 304 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: I hear that some high and mighty writers speak of 305 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: you as a genius or precocious, or some kind of 306 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: devia it or just unpleasant. I think it is high 307 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: time you took stock of yourself. And this is like 308 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: a letter I wrote you, and I wrote you a note, 309 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: and I just want you to take that into consideration, 310 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: which has to be one of those things, just like, 311 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: come on, man, we could have had a conversation about 312 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: this over tie or something. Whenever I need to pick 313 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: up from either Ban or Nolan something, I write it 314 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: as a letter and millet to them. It's usually really 315 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: passive aggressive. It's nice to uh. It's nice to get 316 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: mail that is in junk mail or a bill though, 317 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: so keep it up, Max. One thing I think will 318 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: be helpful for all our ridiculous historians looking for maybe 319 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: a more modern analog. Sadly a lot of people have 320 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: a tension with their parents. But a more modern analog 321 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: of this sort of Persona and Japan would be the 322 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: so called carnivores. Right. This is a term uh. It's 323 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: a social term for uh, like the meat eaters, the 324 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: guys who have steak right, the salary men who um 325 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: who keep their keep their house, tightly regimented, keep their 326 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: spouse in quote unquote their place, and they have these 327 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: concrete expectations that are pretty pretty carved out in stone 328 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: before the kids born, like what your role is supposed 329 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: to be, what you're supposed to do and win. And 330 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: so to Mishima's father, this is and at like almost 331 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: absolute waste of twelve years. There's other stuff he should 332 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: have learned. And yes he is writing him these honestly, 333 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: like these emotionally abuse of letters, let's be honest. But 334 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: he also is doubling down, right, Zach. He is doing 335 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: crazy stuff to sort of man up the boy. You know, like, 336 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: uh what what There's this scene where he's holding in 337 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: close to speeding trains, right, That's that's a real thing, 338 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: and that's something that you know, you can say you're 339 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: a tough love parent or authority figure all the livelong day, 340 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: but when you get that close to throwing your kid 341 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: into train, I think that's the time for the father 342 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: to take stock of himself. That seems a little deviant 343 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: to me, absolutely, And so much of that relationship, you know, 344 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: has to do with these very classical ideas of masculinity 345 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: that you know, you're talking about the carnivores, the stuff 346 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: of her lip, right, the sort of social like the 347 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: emotional kind of negation and things like that. It's a 348 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: very kind of I think it's a common archetype across cultures, 349 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of authoritarian, stiff upper lip father. 350 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: But it's also worth noting that these sorts of personalities 351 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: also kind of they mask and insecurity and of itself. 352 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: And you know, um aside in Japan, the rates generally speaking, 353 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: like salary men very very high, um as far as 354 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: like people who commit suicide because that lifestyle, however, it 355 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: brings productivity, However, it's sort of reproduces certain home styles 356 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: and certain economic incentives and things like that, it's still 357 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: personally very corrosive, difficult to maintain. Well, I mean it's unrealistic. Yeah, 358 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: it's such a it's such an ideal. And I started 359 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: watching this show um Industry, which is about like, you know, 360 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: kind of young people coming up in the stock you 361 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: know market in London, and um no spoilers, but there's 362 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: something that, you know, really horrible that happens to a 363 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: character because they just can't keep up the dance, like 364 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: they're they're so worried about letting down you know, their 365 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: mentor or or letting down their parents or whatever it 366 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: might be, that they're putting themselves in psychological harm's way, 367 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, like every single day. And there's some people 368 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: that can deal with it better than others, and maybe 369 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: some people that kind of deal with it through drug 370 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: abuse us sir alcoholism or whatever it might be, or 371 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: just becoming completely hardened and sociopathic. And I think that's 372 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: sort of the culture that creates those kind of figures. 373 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: You know, when you have this very regimented society, you 374 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: you either end up with people that are like mentally 375 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: unwell or that just harden themselves so much they just 376 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: become kind of, you know, not good people. Yeah, but 377 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: regimented society is inherently an exclusionary society, absolutely, And that's 378 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: sort of I don't want to get too into the 379 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: weeds about this sort of thing, but um, I mean 380 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: it is a sort of type of social Darwinism, uh 381 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: and something that you know, capital requires something that empire, 382 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: specifically in the context of Japan in this case requires 383 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, because at this point, Japan, before the end 384 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: of World War two, is still an imperial power. Um, 385 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: there's the sort of patriarchal figure is very, very much 386 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: at the center of things, because at the point, you know, 387 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: the emperor is not only the head of state, but 388 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: a spiritual figure, if only in a sort of pageant 389 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: and ritual um. A lot of people like to say, 390 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: you know, the Japanese literally believed that hiro Hido was 391 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: the incarnation of of God um or something along those lines. 392 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: Would really like, that's mostly a sort of pageant, but 393 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: still something that's so necessary to the structure. And one 394 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: of the things I will say again, I want to 395 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: reiterate this is not unique to Japan. I'm not engaging 396 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: in an orientalism. This was the same type of mindset 397 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: that led to fascism in Italy. Mussolini is a father figure. 398 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: It will do say it's definitely something that seems to 399 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: be at the center of nearly all patriarchal society. And 400 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: it's difficult to make heads or tails of these sorts 401 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: of things because so much of the world has changed 402 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: over the course of the last fifty some odd years 403 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: with regards to our relationship and our skepticism to those 404 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: ways of living, those types of ideologies, and you get 405 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: the impression that Mishima is such um a conflicted figure 406 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: because he also has a it of that ingrained skepticism 407 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: and his himself. So many of those characters not only 408 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: are beneficiaries but also people who succumb to these types 409 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: of systems and ideals. Can I ask really quickly, you know, 410 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: since obviously he's returned back to his parents. His father 411 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: seems like a bit of a bastard, but also cut 412 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: from the mold that we're describing of that more traditional 413 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: kind of macho Japanese, you know, mindset of like what 414 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: what men should be. Why did he let his son 415 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: go live with his grandmother in the first place if 416 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: he felt so strongly about this, and possibly was he 417 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: not wise to how she was going to raise him. 418 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: Was there a need that arose or they couldn't take 419 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: care of him just or or is there also just 420 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: sort of a deference to you know, parents where she 421 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: stepped in and said, I want this to happen, and 422 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna do it because i'm your mother or i'm 423 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, you're elder. It seems to be exactly that 424 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: she just sort of put her foot down, was like, 425 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: this boy will not climb to the second floor landing. 426 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: He will instead live in my drawing room where he 427 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: will be safe and kept. Um. That seems to be 428 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: the the sort of context of the thing. Yeah, and 429 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: we an interesting inversion of those dynamics, right, and then 430 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: again that's part of the the regimented society, right, there 431 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: is respect for the elders, so ultimately they can have 432 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: a sort of veto power the similar to the way 433 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: the guy who blows leaves outside of uh, outside of 434 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: my window every Monday morning can make himself known in 435 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: this I I gotta tell you, I'm never recording there's this, 436 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: but so I want to acknowledge that, folks. But there's 437 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: something that I think is really interesting, not just about 438 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: this part of his life. This is a bit of 439 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: a segue. Uh. We as students, whereas readers, have a 440 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: unique in site into Mishima's life because he tells his 441 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: own story in an incredibly interesting way, decades before people 442 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: start making thinly veiled autobiography a genre in film. Mishima 443 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: has his breakout work in the literary scene. Right, it's 444 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: Confessions of a Mask And if you go to the bookstore, 445 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: it's in the novel section, but it's you know, it's 446 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: a novel that draws like the very least you can 447 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: say is it draws a great deal on his personal history, 448 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: his story, and so people are again they are taken 449 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: to these really interesting emotional explorations that you mentioned at 450 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: the top of the show's act. But these explorations are 451 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: taking you into the mind of the author. And maybe 452 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: you can tell us a little bit about this first novel, 453 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: or this first breakout novel, just so people can see 454 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: how closely this cleaves to the true story. So obviously, 455 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: as you've already pointed out, it's a sort of kind 456 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: of autobiography what we would now call auto fiction, this 457 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: kind of thinly veiled fictionalized version of of events or um, 458 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: I guess, um his own personality. Is there really something 459 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: else that you could compare that too, maybe that others 460 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: in the audience might be familiar with. I mean, I 461 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: think that Proust is kind of known for having done 462 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: these sorts of things very early on in the Remembrance 463 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: of Times pastor I can't remember the full title, but 464 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: you can make sponsor say that sort of thing. Similar 465 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: argument with some early Joyce, maybe like Stephen Hero which 466 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: becomes Confessions of the Artists. Um as a young man 467 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: got it no. And I think this is a This 468 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: is something that has increasingly become very very popular as 469 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: a sort of literary genre. Books by Ben Lerner and 470 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: Teju Cole and things like that are very closely associated 471 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: with this auto fiction movement, where generally speaking, the narrator 472 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: is a stand in for the author and in some 473 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 1: cases shares the author's name outright, despite the fact that 474 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: some of the things have been sort of twisted to 475 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: be made a bit more fictional. So Confessions of a 476 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: Mask is I think indicative of a broader tendency within 477 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: literary production that that's been with us since the beginning 478 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: of Letters, right, the fact that the artists can and 479 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: should not separate themselves from their own experiences, and in fact, 480 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: their own experiences can be this sort of stuff of 481 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: art and a sort of necessary means of understanding not 482 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: only the world but themselves, and hopefully you know, through 483 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: the audience, right, building that sense of empathy and intimacy 484 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: with them, forcing them into a place where they begin 485 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: to understand things. And I think this is where, like 486 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: Mishima as a literary figure is most kind of powerful, 487 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: This person who understands acutely the sense of being cleaved 488 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: in half identity wise, this person who, on the one hand, 489 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: has this kind of secret inner life, and these obligations 490 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: to be ambitious, to to sort of be the figure 491 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: of masculinity, to submit to military service if necessary, all 492 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: of these things that are just sort of warring inside 493 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: of him because not only of his upbringing, but also 494 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: because of you know, the fact that he's he's building tastes, 495 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: He's building this this reality for himself that's so at 496 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: odds with what's actually going on in the world around him. 497 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: Like when we said cloistered earlier, not only by class, 498 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: but also by the physical space of the room Japan 499 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: at this time during his childhood. People talk about, you know, 500 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: the wartime period specifically most of the time, but much 501 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: of the early twentieth century is a period of imperial expansion, 502 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: wars elsewhere, um, violent protests, and political turmoil at home. 503 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: Mean the elements within the government staging their own coude 504 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: a toss, an incredibly fraught time to be alive, even 505 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: before the war happens, and that retreat to that room, 506 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: trying to find oneself in that space life is theater. 507 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: All of those things seems to be at first something 508 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: that really gives him a sense of confidence in himself, 509 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: but then of course ultimately morphs into something that is 510 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: again a bit more corrosive, a bit more psychologically damaging. Yeah. Here, 511 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: there's there's something I think is key to this auto 512 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: fiction approach in his in his breakthrough novel, which is 513 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: it gives you a bit of a fig leaf. It 514 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: gives you a bit of a defense or a buffer. 515 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: Maybe we could say, uh, some kind of a safety 516 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: switch one can pull if something about your life appears 517 00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: controversial against the norm, or to deviate from these Uh, again, 518 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: pretty concrete visions of what proper society should be. What 519 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about specifically here is that Confessions of a 520 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 1: Mask goes through childhood up to the adolescence of the 521 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: protagonist and then reveals his awakening, Like this is all 522 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: about arriving at one's identity as a young adult ultimately, 523 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: and in this in this spirit, in this evolution one 524 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: of the I hesitate to call it climactic moments, but 525 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: there's this realization that this protagonist is attracted to people 526 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: of the same sex. That's how you would have put 527 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: it at this time. And this is obviously a controversial 528 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: identity right in in this immediately post war Japan, because 529 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of traditions have been carried over, 530 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: even if those are being intensely interrogated at this time 531 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: due to the horrors of World War Two. But now, 532 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: I I wonder Zach how society received this novel, because 533 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: it was it was quite successful. But was there any 534 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: calculus on Mishima's part to have that that safety net 535 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: where one could say, well, this is just a novel. Honestly, 536 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: I think it's a bit the opposite. He sort of 537 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: leaned into it pretty much immediately. Um, and sort of 538 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that it, you know, attracts you 539 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: iconoclastic personalities in the first place, as they're willingness to 540 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: kind of swim against the current, to sort of be 541 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: the person to put their foot down and say no, actually, 542 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: this is who I am. However, mediated his own image 543 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: is Um, he very much kind of leaned into his 544 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: status as a kind of on fontoib like a sort 545 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: of like almost like a Rombo figure, this person of 546 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: ambiguous sexuality, and but also this kind of like later on, 547 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: this adventurous personality, right like Rombo went overseas and and 548 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: and at all these adventures after he quit writing. I 549 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: call them adventures. They're not great things. Look it up. 550 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: It's not the best. But you know, he he very 551 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: much as tailored as the image is, right, it wasn't 552 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: tailored in service of kind of tamping him down or 553 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: making him more palatable to the public. In fact, it 554 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: was something different. Like I said, he kind of he 555 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: he fashioned himself as this like defeat dandy, this cosmopolitan figure, 556 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: this kind of sexually ambiguous person. And that's definitely something 557 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: that I think is appealing to a lot of people, 558 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: because so much of our own identities are unclear to us. 559 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: To see somebody lean into those ambiguities with such not 560 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: only say confidence, but also like contempt for what others 561 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: thought of it um is very interesting. And it's it's 562 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: doubly interesting because of how sensitive he's portrayed in the 563 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: film with regards to these sorts of things, like the 564 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: sort of public life aspect of it is one thing, 565 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: but he was very very aware of what it was 566 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: that he was feeling, very very aware of sort of 567 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: his place within that milieu as well, which I find 568 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: incredibly interesting. And he definitely wanted to be famous, oh absolutely, 569 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: and to to to that end, he reminds me of like, 570 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: you know, Andy Warhol type to a degree. I mean, 571 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: Andy Warhol was sort of cre curated this image of 572 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: himself as this sort of like, uh, this similarly kind 573 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: of dandy effect, well dressed, you know, kind of cosmopolitan 574 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: weirdo who very much wanted to be famous. He also 575 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: reminds me a bit of Truman capote Um to a degree. 576 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: And I think they actually crossed paths to uh at 577 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: some point, like in nineteen fifty seven when Mishima came 578 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: to the United States and apparently, you know, was not 579 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: given the royal treatment let's just say by Truman capote 580 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: or at least he claimed so. I believe in exchange 581 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: for a time where Campodi came to Japan maybe and 582 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: then Mishima kind of gave him tours around and all 583 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: of that, and he felt like he didn't get the 584 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: same treatment in return. Truman Capodium historically great friend, a 585 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: great person to yeah, yeah, beautiful, famous for he wrote 586 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: a couple of books, and he also never forgave other 587 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: people for existing. It was just too egregious to him. 588 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: Murdered by Death is a good film, I mean, you know, 589 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: and That's the thing too, is thankfully we've gotten away 590 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: from this sort of personality in the arts, like romanticizing 591 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: the person for whom everything is, Yeah, exactly. Thankfully art 592 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: seems to be trending towards a more empathetic, intimate direction. 593 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: Some people decry that sort of thing, but I think 594 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: it's ultimately good to have these writers taken down a peg. 595 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: You know. There's also there's really uh fastening here when 596 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: we look at the fame level, the chase for fame 597 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: and being image call just to the level uh to 598 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: like Maschima level. Uh, he is he is becoming a 599 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: study in contradiction right to the outside observer. Without knowing 600 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: the inner workings of the fellow's mind, ourselves, we can 601 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: say that he was he was doing a lot. I'm 602 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: not gonna say too much, but he's doing a lot. 603 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: Uh renaissance writer, you know, a literary icon by the 604 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. And this is when he starts, uh, this 605 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: is when he starts getting more a little bit more 606 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: macho man. Right. He starts working out to earn that 607 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: photograph on the cover this of the translation to Zach 608 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: showed us uh, and he continues saying, look, yes, I'm 609 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: getting in shape, i am getting swollen. I work out 610 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: three times a week. I'm also not gonna hide my 611 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: sexual or orientation. So for a lot of the more 612 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: traditional observers in Japanese society, this guy is just not 613 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: computing right, like, why are you so manly? Why are 614 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: you getting so buff when you're not obeying what we 615 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: see as proper social roles. There's that, and I think 616 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: there's also this tendency to sort of lean into one 617 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: of the things that, especially the right wing that he 618 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: became associated with later on down the line, we're critical 619 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: of him for it was like this sort of fostering 620 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: of a cult of personality, this um, this kind of 621 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: emphasis on image, and this emphasis on kind of propping 622 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: himself up as a figurehead of something. Um In mind, 623 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: you that Japan has a very sort of individualist kind 624 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,439 Speaker 1: of character, as many sort of you know, we'll say, 625 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: as many capitalist countries do. But people were very skeptical, 626 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: not not necessarily just because of that sexual ambiguity, but 627 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,720 Speaker 1: also he was a try hard. He was always somebody 628 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: who was putting himself out there. He was always sort 629 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: of flying in the face of convention and and and 630 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: sort of like received modes of like our understandings of 631 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: like humility. Right, Like, it's not enough that we read you. 632 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: We have to see you in movies, We have to 633 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: listen to your music. Could you maybe take it down 634 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 1: a notch? He's like like have like a written by, 635 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: produced by, composed by based on theme tune originally whistled by, 636 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: but actually a really good writer. No, and that's that 637 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: that's what makes you begrudge him even further. Right, are 638 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: you bad mouthing Garth Marenguey. I will say that admitting 639 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: that you've written more books than you've read is a 640 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: bad look. Well, yes, but I think that's masterful comedy. 641 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,479 Speaker 1: Oh it's great now that that that that guy really 642 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: is the satirical kind of apex of what we're describing here. 643 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: And and to your point, Zach, that Mishima actually was 644 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: good at all of these things. That's something that will 645 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: also piss people off, you know what I mean. We 646 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: can almost stomach a try hard hack better than we 647 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 1: can someone that is really good and makes it points 648 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: out kind of how mediocre a lot of other you know, 649 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: like kind of multi disciplinary artists are. Oh absolutely, And 650 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: I just imagine you know nominated for the or like 651 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: sort of considered for the Nobel Prize throughout the sixties, 652 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: incredibly like mattenee Idle, attractive, uh, sort of very focused 653 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: on physical fitness, and then increasingly politically involved in a 654 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: way because of his visibility and his sort of like 655 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: just individual charisma and magnetism. Obviously that's going to rebel 656 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: out of the old guard the wrong way. Yeah. And additionally, 657 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: so we we do see some glimpses of I would 658 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: say painful inner life because around this time when he's 659 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: uh you know, when he's doing too much, as some 660 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: people would say, when he's being a bit of a 661 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: pick me in the world. Uh, he also agains creating 662 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: these images that can seem to contain suicidal ideation. And 663 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: it's easy to dismiss those in the beginning as simply 664 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: being edgy committing seppuku. Uh, images of like I'm drowning 665 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: and stuff. These are coming out around, like coming out 666 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: in the same era as real thirst trap pictures that 667 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: you would call him these days where he's in a 668 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: speed oh and some motorcycle gear. But he's dangerous. Uh. 669 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: This this is something we've been teasing for a little 670 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: bit now. His growing political ideations, is growing fascination with 671 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: the past of Japan and his own burgeoning concepts about nationalism. 672 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: And say what you want about Mishima. Obviously we think 673 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: he's a fantastic writer, but see what you want about 674 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: his personality. You can never say that he did half measures. 675 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: This guy was all gas, no breaks whenever he was 676 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: interested in something. So it's not as if he just 677 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: gave one interview and said, I'm kind of embracing nationalism. 678 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: How far did he go? Zach? Is that for part two? 679 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: I think that's probably good for part two. But one 680 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: of the things I will also say about the sort 681 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: of political awakening as sort of contrasted by the rest 682 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: of his life, he forgot to mention that he was 683 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: a model in things like that. We can't necessarily speculate 684 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: too much about where he was going with regards to 685 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: sort of where he ended up at the time. So 686 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: to put to put more frankly, in Confessions of a Mask, 687 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: there's a scene where he describes this sort of homosexual 688 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: awakening as a sort of encounter with a painting of 689 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: Saint Sebastian sort of strung up to a tree littered 690 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: with arrows that that that painting would be reproduced several 691 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: times in photographic form with Mishima is the subject, and 692 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: this sort of drive towards like destruction, self destruction, UM, 693 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: all of those things sort of becomes very obvious in 694 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: the sort of the suicidal character of many of these photographs, 695 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: so much so that the turn that happens next uh, 696 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: and those photographs are roughly contemporary with what at the 697 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: end of his life, um, But even before then, this 698 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: kind of fashioning himself is like this sort of um, 699 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: this bright star that's burning out quickly, this kind of 700 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: doomed um figure begins in the sixties and then ultimately 701 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: comes to it's uh, it's ultimate bloody outcome. And there's 702 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: a lot to be said about that, a lot of 703 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: speculation as to why the political turn happens and its 704 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,720 Speaker 1: relationship to ultimately what does transpire in nineteen seventy, which 705 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: I think is a good place to sort of pick 706 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: up with episode two. Agreed, Agreed, So we are going 707 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: to come to our own, uh, our own brief conclusion, thankfully, 708 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: not a bloody conclusion. This is the end of part 709 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 1: one of Yukio Mishima The Bizarre Final Years, and Zach 710 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. I 711 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: was I was super gassed about this, Noel. I believe 712 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: you were as well, because we really, like we've been 713 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: teasing this for months. Man. I think I I hope Noel, 714 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: that our fellow ridiculous historians didn't suspect we were only 715 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: blowing smoke. Yeah. He gives to another school, right. Uh yeah, 716 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: our our our new research associate with Zach is from Canada. 717 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: He doesn't come around now. He's real. Uh, he's you. 718 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: Thank you, Sach. Also, just thank you, I think our 719 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,919 Speaker 1: listeners thank you for some of the amazing topics you found. 720 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: Really has kind of turned a corner a little bit 721 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: of a of a refresh of of the show and ore. 722 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: We've been really super excited to do some of these 723 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 1: and this one is no exception. So UM look forward 724 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: to having you back on part two. Absolutely, thank you 725 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: all for having me. I look forward to the conversation. 726 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: It gets really fascinating. All right, do hear that? We 727 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: got a second eight, So we're gonna call it a day. 728 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer, Mr Max Williams. 729 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: No relation, you can verify that, right, zach Um. No 730 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,240 Speaker 1: relation except in the great tapestry of humanity. Oh shucks, 731 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I just believe that Zach 732 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: is my long lost little brother. I love it. We 733 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: can we can act accordingly. We can act accordingly. We 734 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: we we can, we can chosen family. That's what I 735 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: like to call it. We are the stories we tell ourselves. 736 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: We are the stories we tell ourselves. But then we 737 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,240 Speaker 1: also do have obligatory family like Alex Williams, who composed 738 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: our theme. Huge thanks to Christophersciotis here in spirit, Eve, 739 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: Jeff Coats here spirit as well, and um who else 740 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, a k a. 741 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: The Quister. We're not gonna say his name anymore because 742 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: it seems to have He seems to obey beetlejuice rules 743 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: on the show and handyman rules. And we wanted to 744 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: save you, as you know, this is your first time 745 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: as a gay s Zach, but we do we know 746 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 1: your return for part two. We can't wait to explore 747 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: more in the future. In the meantime of folks. While 748 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: you're waiting, check out check out the work of Michinema. 749 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: Check out some of those pictures. Let us know what 750 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: you think on our Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians Gaghetti Images 751 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 1: is a pretty spectacular collection that you can browse. Uh. 752 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: And then you can also get sticker shock when you 753 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: see they want five dollars for the full resolution one 754 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: to printing your publication, which you can look through. There's 755 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: some incredible images of these kind of jacked, you know, 756 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: Martyred kind of you know tableaus that Mishima was was 757 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: very fond of. Uh. And it'll be a really good 758 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: primer and set up for part two. You might even 759 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: see some pictures of a militia. Spoilers we'll see next time. Books. 760 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I 761 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 762 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,280 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.